There’s nothing like a ‘must do’ mission. Once in a while you get pushed to the edge of your envelope. But never ever start out of it. Know and respect your limitations. I love this video.
I flew for a Part 135 helicopter charter in NY, most flights were from Manhattan to the Hamptons...many high value celebrities and business types, 95% of them were required by their insurance to fly in twin engine, IFR certified helicopters flown by a qualified and current 2 pilot crew.
Fun fact. Did you know that Greg Feith is a Leo? ♌ That explain his leading skills. 😊 August 5th. Just two days before my uncle's birthday(August 7th).
Great expertise - and all of you have it - is necessary to distill the facts and circumstances into a concise, taut presentation. What a pure pleasure to hear sophisticated analysis and facts that are useful to the viewer and listener. So many podcast or video hosts suffer from verbal incontinence. You gentlemen don’t and your subject matter benefits from it. Thank you for such a useful session.
Good job guys, very entertaining video. The discussion and analysis, is, as always, thought-provoking. You did, however, mention about not knowing what crews might be talking about in the cockpit due to the absence of CVR's. I think of equal importance is what the crew might NOT be talking about! I've had experience of pilots flying together with each assuming that because nothing is being said, that everything is okay, when in fact, one or both pilots might be concerned about a developing situation (for example deteriorating weather) and because neither pilot verbalises their concern, they blissfully fly on until its too late. The silence can be deafening and often deadly!
I wonder why so many people act like they were the only two victims? That really disrespectful to the rest of the souls onboard who died and I'm sure that Kobe and Gigi would agree! In my humble opinion.
26:35: There is NO good reason NOT to have a voice recorder with 25 hours. They are digital. They take up the same amount of space in the aircraft as one that records 2 hours. It is not like having ADDITIONAL data, which may show that there was a problem on the previous flight, is a problem for investigators. C'mon Greg! Advocate for safety!
And it should be IMPOSSIBLE for a flight crew to erase anything that has happened in the past 24 hours. You are worried about lawyers. I'm worried about lives.
Don’t think you can’t get a “ wintry mix” along that stretch of the 15. I’ve driven that route hundreds of times and have gotten some pretty bad weather and the weather was not good when this accident happened. Also the most turbulent flight I’ve ever been on was on this route on a commercial jet This route is always heavily traveled being the main route between LA and Vegas and in fact is bumper to bumper traffic from Friday- Sun a good deal of the time. Super Bowl weekend would be a nightmare to be driving that route. So seeing the 15 would not be a problem unless they were in the clouds. RIP to all
Sometimes pilots just fail to consider just how dark it can get at night away from civilization. Having driven this route AND flown a similar one along I-10 during my ppl training, there's no way in Hell I'd of taken this flight. ,...but I have the advantage of prior experience (and remembering just how quickly I got disorientated over the dimly lighted desert). Plus I've already had my brush with scudd-running into IIMC. That's the thing though. We pilots are going to make bad decisions from time to time. Sometimes we survive (usually just from dumb ass luck) then learn from those bad decisions, and sometimes we don't. "Get tne job done itis" is a powerful gremlin!
What’s the advantage of helicopter travel if you have to follow the highway? Palm Springs to Las Vegas is 99 air miles. By Highway it’s 277 miles. Pick one: night, IFR conditions, bad weather. Two or more is often fatal. Can’t legislate common sense.
And you don’t need a company or employer in the back for the kind of social pressure that leads to poor decisions. GA pilots will put pressure on themselves to complete their mission once they have made a decision to start. The AOPA’s Accident Case Studies are filled with one tragic loss after another of pilots flying themselves and their families right into the ground because of a some kind of self-induced pressure (like getting to a birthday party or avoiding a few hours spent at an alternate airport or just feeling like they can’t admit they were wrong or that they have lost or failed in some way and have let people down by diverting or turning around-even though saving your own life and the life of your passengers is greatest success a pilot could possibly have).
It's very sad that there are very few lessons to be learned because we don't know what was going on in the cockpit. As far as the safety of the charter, I would bet that because the US has such a good image for air safety compared to 3rd world countries, for example, it would be easy for a foreigner to be lulled into less rigourous examination of the conpany they are hiring.
How quickly does a pilot lose orientation to the ground. Kobe's accident was the first I really heard about it in that way. I can see after a bunch on turn and upside down spins losing bearing but as a non pilot is odd to think only after seconds of movement you lose bearing. You might not know where you are in the clouds but hover until you do get bearing. Doesn't gravity tell you you're upside down by the weight being pulled differently on the body? Don't choppers have equipment to tell you how the choppers pointing? Im writing this as the video plays, so if its discussed my bad. Wont an attitude indicator tell you the heading of the chopper to a point. Clouds covering hills or ground would still be an issue but once again if shit goes bad hover till you can decent in place. Better to be embarrassed then dead.
Here’s the key that you may be missing: spatial disorientation doesn’t merely cause you to “lose” orientation. It actively lies to you. Because human biology is designed differently from birds, our brains receive nonsensical signals when we are flying through the air if we don’t have visual references. We might think that up is down, accelerating is deceleration, etc. This can cause fear reactions that override what the panel data reads are saying.
the brain not noticing the weight was carried differently by the body is the part that I'm stuck on. Just like you answered though all answers say the air is a different beast. You could still hover though in place couldn't you until you got a bearing? Its not like the pilot was doing acrobats and flips in the air before hand so the head of the pilot should've been understood to be still pointing to 12 o clock or up. The answer is you lose track by everyone so I'm not calling you a liar. Follow up question, would that phenonium happen on a long roller coaster in heavy fog? I dont ask to be difficult just trying to understand the situation better. Because if the pilot never tried to go in a loop why would you think you pulled one?@@banjo2019
@@robert48044 A lack of pilot experience compounds the problems you’re asking about. As our friends in the video here mention, they don’t know yet whether both pilots here were current and proficient in flying in instrument conditions. If they were not, they’re more likely to be tricked by the physical and visual illusions that lead to SD. If they were proficient, they would have ignored those illusions to follow only the cues of their instruments. Without that experience, the body and brain lying to you that you are, for example, falling rapidly from the sky, will cause a fear or panic reaction. In a rollercoaster your physical track is unchangeable whether or not your body lies to you. Also on a rollercoaster, they’re basically all run with 100% visual capabilities. In pilot SD scenarios, you’ve lost your visual reference points. There’s FAA literature about spatial disorientation that you can look up if you’re interested in the topic.
@@robert48044 This is a pretty decent summary en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_illusions_in_aviation - all of these problems require significant and constantly reinforced training to overcome. Even with training these types of accidents illustrate how biased we are to trust what our senses are telling us rather than thinking logically.
the conversation in the cockpit would not give you very much.... by that time of the check list, the frame of mind is basically made up, as is the attitude towards the operation.... the whole pressure thing starts & solidifies at a desk, long before the pilot enters into the cockpit even arrives to the airport in the morning... it is the records showing the culture of that particular business/office you need to look into, the calls made, the need for that client. if they know they are being recorded, all that will lead to is a greater lack of communication... similar to how people do not declare mayday in fear of the FAA... they know not to self incriminate or to incriminate their bosses, so a CVR will just make things a little worse.
I would say, I'd be alright with recorders everywhere in Aviation, as long as the people in the NTSB and FAA are subjected to thesame amount of control.... if they wish to know everything about me as a Pilot, we at least disserve to know everything about those who have that power... how & what they eat, who they are friends with, what causes them to get angry, what are their weaknesses, trauma & biases... certainly, in the interest of public good, the life of someone with access to such unlimited information should be fully bisected for flaws by every kind of political interest group and rights organization.
With so much unknown .. did they check .did they listen ..I must say I’m surprised at your harsh comments on pilots … no consideration of other factors … and the comments on millionaire motives ..
NTSB should be proud to have these pioneers on board past and present. We have been taught so much and we're continuously learning.
Such a thorough - in-depth analysis conducted by these true champions of aviation.
There’s nothing like a ‘must do’ mission. Once in a while you get pushed to the edge of your envelope. But never ever start out of it. Know and respect your limitations. I love this video.
Good coverage on the accident 😊
The frustration is palpable....shame that these "accidents " have occurred but they shouldn't have (!!).
Thank you gentlemen for your insights.
I flew for a Part 135 helicopter charter in NY, most flights were from Manhattan to the Hamptons...many high value celebrities and business types, 95% of them were required by their insurance to fly in twin engine, IFR certified helicopters flown by a qualified and current 2 pilot crew.
Fun fact. Did you know that Greg Feith is a Leo? ♌ That explain his leading skills. 😊 August 5th. Just two days before my uncle's birthday(August 7th).
1st time here, A+++
Thanks for explaining and exposing this. I hear you bro.
Great expertise - and all of you have it - is necessary to distill the facts and circumstances into a concise, taut presentation. What a pure pleasure to hear sophisticated analysis and facts that are useful to the viewer and listener. So many podcast or video hosts suffer from verbal incontinence. You gentlemen don’t and your subject matter benefits from it. Thank you for such a useful session.
Good job guys, very entertaining video. The discussion and analysis, is, as always, thought-provoking. You did, however, mention about not knowing what crews might be talking about in the cockpit due to the absence of CVR's. I think of equal importance is what the crew might NOT be talking about! I've had experience of pilots flying together with each assuming that because nothing is being said, that everything is okay, when in fact, one or both pilots might be concerned about a developing situation (for example deteriorating weather) and because neither pilot verbalises their concern, they blissfully fly on until its too late. The silence can be deafening and often deadly!
That day was the saddest day ever. R.I.P. Kobe & Gigi.
I wonder why so many people act like they were the only two victims? That really disrespectful to the rest of the souls onboard who died and I'm sure that Kobe and Gigi would agree! In my humble opinion.
26:35: There is NO good reason NOT to have a voice recorder with 25 hours. They are digital. They take up the same amount of space in the aircraft as one that records 2 hours. It is not like having ADDITIONAL data, which may show that there was a problem on the previous flight, is a problem for investigators. C'mon Greg! Advocate for safety!
And it should be IMPOSSIBLE for a flight crew to erase anything that has happened in the past 24 hours. You are worried about lawyers. I'm worried about lives.
Don’t think you can’t get a “ wintry mix” along that stretch of the 15. I’ve driven that route hundreds of times and have gotten some pretty bad weather and the weather was not good when this accident happened. Also the most turbulent flight I’ve ever been on was on this route on a commercial jet This route is always heavily traveled being the main route between LA and Vegas and in fact is bumper to bumper traffic from Friday- Sun a good deal of the time. Super Bowl weekend would be a nightmare to be driving that route. So seeing the 15 would not be a problem unless they were in the clouds. RIP to all
Sometimes pilots just fail to consider just how dark it can get at night away from civilization. Having driven this route AND flown a similar one along I-10 during my ppl training, there's no way in Hell I'd of taken this flight.
,...but I have the advantage of prior experience (and remembering just how quickly I got disorientated over the dimly lighted desert). Plus I've already had my brush with scudd-running into IIMC.
That's the thing though. We pilots are going to make bad decisions from time to time. Sometimes we survive (usually just from dumb ass luck) then learn from those bad decisions, and sometimes we don't.
"Get tne job done itis" is a powerful gremlin!
Memory and recorders are so cheap and lightweight now that it makes no sense to NOT record the last 2 or 3 hours of any cockpit conversations.
What are the FAA standards for training requirements for private helicopter transport? Generally, is it less than a private jet operation?
What’s the advantage of helicopter travel if you have to follow the highway? Palm Springs to Las Vegas is 99 air miles. By Highway it’s 277 miles. Pick one: night, IFR conditions, bad weather. Two or more is often fatal. Can’t legislate common sense.
And you don’t need a company or employer in the back for the kind of social pressure that leads to poor decisions. GA pilots will put pressure on themselves to complete their mission once they have made a decision to start. The AOPA’s Accident Case Studies are filled with one tragic loss after another of pilots flying themselves and their families right into the ground because of a some kind of self-induced pressure (like getting to a birthday party or avoiding a few hours spent at an alternate airport or just feeling like they can’t admit they were wrong or that they have lost or failed in some way and have let people down by diverting or turning around-even though saving your own life and the life of your passengers is greatest success a pilot could possibly have).
Me-ow! A Leo Greg wasn't having it.
It's very sad that there are very few lessons to be learned because we don't know what was going on in the cockpit.
As far as the safety of the charter, I would bet that because the US has such a good image for air safety compared to 3rd world countries, for example, it would be easy for a foreigner to be lulled into less rigourous examination of the conpany they are hiring.
Why are professional pilots following roads? It’s rare that I follow roads
It's called pilotage-navigating by reference to visible landmarks and checkpoints.
Part of VFR navigation. Very professional.
another flight that shouldn’t have happened.
Hop-a-jet didn't run out of gas.....It may have been jelly?, but not out ......to avoid ramp fee, they took 350 at turnaround....negative Prist....
How quickly does a pilot lose orientation to the ground. Kobe's accident was the first I really heard about it in that way. I can see after a bunch on turn and upside down spins losing bearing but as a non pilot is odd to think only after seconds of movement you lose bearing. You might not know where you are in the clouds but hover until you do get bearing. Doesn't gravity tell you you're upside down by the weight being pulled differently on the body? Don't choppers have equipment to tell you how the choppers pointing? Im writing this as the video plays, so if its discussed my bad. Wont an attitude indicator tell you the heading of the chopper to a point. Clouds covering hills or ground would still be an issue but once again if shit goes bad hover till you can decent in place. Better to be embarrassed then dead.
Here’s the key that you may be missing: spatial disorientation doesn’t merely cause you to “lose” orientation. It actively lies to you. Because human biology is designed differently from birds, our brains receive nonsensical signals when we are flying through the air if we don’t have visual references. We might think that up is down, accelerating is deceleration, etc. This can cause fear reactions that override what the panel data reads are saying.
the brain not noticing the weight was carried differently by the body is the part that I'm stuck on. Just like you answered though all answers say the air is a different beast. You could still hover though in place couldn't you until you got a bearing? Its not like the pilot was doing acrobats and flips in the air before hand so the head of the pilot should've been understood to be still pointing to 12 o clock or up. The answer is you lose track by everyone so I'm not calling you a liar. Follow up question, would that phenonium happen on a long roller coaster in heavy fog? I dont ask to be difficult just trying to understand the situation better. Because if the pilot never tried to go in a loop why would you think you pulled one?@@banjo2019
@@robert48044 A lack of pilot experience compounds the problems you’re asking about. As our friends in the video here mention, they don’t know yet whether both pilots here were current and proficient in flying in instrument conditions. If they were not, they’re more likely to be tricked by the physical and visual illusions that lead to SD. If they were proficient, they would have ignored those illusions to follow only the cues of their instruments. Without that experience, the body and brain lying to you that you are, for example, falling rapidly from the sky, will cause a fear or panic reaction.
In a rollercoaster your physical track is unchangeable whether or not your body lies to you. Also on a rollercoaster, they’re basically all run with 100% visual capabilities. In pilot SD scenarios, you’ve lost your visual reference points. There’s FAA literature about spatial disorientation that you can look up if you’re interested in the topic.
@@robert48044 This is a pretty decent summary en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensory_illusions_in_aviation - all of these problems require significant and constantly reinforced training to overcome. Even with training these types of accidents illustrate how biased we are to trust what our senses are telling us rather than thinking logically.
@@robert48044how would you hover with no outside reference?
the conversation in the cockpit would not give you very much.... by that time of the check list, the frame of mind is basically made up, as is the attitude towards the operation....
the whole pressure thing starts & solidifies at a desk, long before the pilot enters into the cockpit even arrives to the airport in the morning... it is the records showing the culture of that particular business/office you need to look into, the calls made, the need for that client.
if they know they are being recorded, all that will lead to is a greater lack of communication... similar to how people do not declare mayday in fear of the FAA... they know not to self incriminate or to incriminate their bosses, so a CVR will just make things a little worse.
I would say, I'd be alright with recorders everywhere in Aviation, as long as the people in the NTSB and FAA are subjected to thesame amount of control....
if they wish to know everything about me as a Pilot, we at least disserve to know everything about those who have that power... how & what they eat, who they are friends with, what causes them to get angry, what are their weaknesses, trauma & biases...
certainly, in the interest of public good, the life of someone with access to such unlimited information should be fully bisected for flaws by every kind of political interest group and rights organization.
With so much unknown .. did they check .did they listen ..I must say I’m surprised at your harsh comments on pilots … no consideration of other factors … and the comments on millionaire motives ..
Adversaries can control or emulate “weather conditions”.
It’s not regular “hacking”. If you can’t say it outright; I will. You tryna say it.