Having built many mics, i would posit the transformer in a mic has very little effect on the overall sound. Ive swapped trafos on mics to do an actual 1:1 comparison with the same circuit different transformer. Virtually no difference when specs are the same (ratio mainly) and material is different. Really great sounding clone you have there either way! Id argue the head basket has more of an impact. And certainly the capsule makes even more of an impact on sound. The argument was made for composition of the input transformer of a mic pre as well. To be a jerk, i had built a 4 channel unit for someone and did 2 channels with nickel and 2 channels alloy and again, virtually no difference. To this day the person that owns that unit has not mentioned an audible difference between the channels and its been almost 7 years lol. Shhhh. Great vid as always! Keep ‘em comin!
The DIY Clone has a much more cleaner, modern sound to my ears! I have the Danny Bouchard parts and I have to do this mod, which got put to the back burner when I moved from LA to Colorado, now I just have to find it;) You have inspired me to find the kit somewhere in the boxes in my garage, with your demo, I know I won't be dissappointed!
I have to tell you that I honestly never loved this Bouchard D87 until I had the Arienne Audio K87 in there. Made such a huge difference and now I really love this mic, so there is definitely a gem to be had in building one of these, but just make sure you put a really good capsule in there to get the most out of it.
@@MarkYoshimotoNemcoff So true about the capsule! I have a Microphone Parts K87 in another mic I was going to swap out but I would like to check out the Arienne K87....
Thanks Bill! The irony here is that I initially built this Bouchard mic 6 years ago with a different capsule with the intent that it would be a step towards better understanding how to eventually build a bespoke custom 87-style mic for my voice for voice over, and it was only now, after swapping in the new Arienne Audio K87 that I'm hearing this mic as THE mic I had been hoping to build someday because of all that added clarity. It took me that long to realize what it was that I had in hand, but just didn't have the perfect capsule for yet.
I agree. Booths as small as mine can be problematic spaces, especially concerning the representation of the lower mids, which ironically are the most important frequencies to get dialed in for VO. Luckily, the 87 takes to EQ and resonance processing well so with it, I know it’s a track I can fix in post, or EQ on the way in if need be. But yeah, the Arienne k87 really brought the DIY 87 to life.
I don’t. But that’s a great question and I’d like to find out as well now so I messaged Guosheng at 3u and I’ll let you know if he gets back to me with that info.
The tonality is much the same, but listening to the esses - the Neumann is smooth and the diy is harsh. - That’s not to say that one is better than the other, you can use it for different things.
Yeah!!! That would be pretty cool to do at some point. I have a couple of designs I've tinkered with and 3d printed in plastic, but it would be cool to get them done in some kind of metal someday.
Mumetal is very effective at sucking in the spooky magnetic ghosts, but it has a rather low saturation point, so it doesn't surprise me that it can't deal perfectly with lower freqs.
I had never really given much thought to the materials used to make transformers, but I'm starting to believe that, as with mu-metal, the more ingredients in the alloy formula, the more smeary it will sound as a result of that lower saturation point because it can't carry as much magnetic flux as a pure metal like Nickel. It's such a key variable in the tone equation for a mic, as I am now beginning to realize.
DIY for the win! Thank you. I think there's a whole world of u87-inspired tone that can be manipulated in DIY to get something custom-fit for your application.
I think the most interesting part of this video is that you didn’t realize it sounded better unless they were side by side! Which means maybe this stuff only matters in side by side videos. Which means in reality… 😊it doesn’t matter much at all?
Danny makes very nice job and his pcbs are definitly worth it , i v built only U47fet but i m amazed . Also UTM transformers are pretty impressive IMHO . Have You tried CHines ASTDS transformers that we see everywhere around ? i have one under hand but it s a 9.5:1 ratio so i didnt try it yet ( i tried the 9,5:1 UTM on the 47fet and it works nicely too ) . The DIY U87 sounds much more opened than the original that sounds almost "nasally" sometimes on this video ( i m biased because i have otitis now so everything sounds a bit boomy ... lol Usually i prefer "vintage sounding" most of time... )
The 47 FET kit looks amazing. I have a UTM in my “Dead Ringer” mic and it really sounds great. I’ve built a few with the $18 ASTDS transformer and I was surprised how clean those sound in comparison.
@@MarkYoshimotoNemcoff Agree, I just got the Mavis Prima MPA-81s and ordered the Ariane Flat K47 capsule from your earlier recommendations. I just need it for recording the ambience in my club/studio with PA SPL levels so I think its going to be a good choice for my needs without needing to go the full Vantage route. Love the channel BTW.
@@fx-studio Thank you so much! That's awesome about the mic! The Arienne Flat k47 is a wonder. That should work out really great with the Mavis. Please let me know how it works out for you. I'd love to hear your feedback on it.
Hi Dan. You can find the rabbit hole to build a D87 like this one by starting at www.vintagemicrophonepcbkit.com/DU87.html This is where you buy the PCB set. And then follow the link to the build thread on GroupDIY for more info. It’s an extremely well documented build that has been done by many so there’s a ton of info in that thread.
It’s unfortunately the camera angle and the placement in a small booth on a tight shot. The camera is a tiny bit closer to the 87 on a slight angle and not dead on. I hadn’t noticed it until I shot it. I’m still only about 3 inches off each grill.
I did wonder about that, but does still appear *and sound* as if you are closer, listening with high end custom IEMs woth electrostatic mid and high drivers, which is about as good isolation and clarity as you will get for a test like this, there is also slightly more sibilance on the right, which can give the illusion of higher clarity. I havent checked the schematic of the capsule and mic pre under discussion to see what could contribute. Neuman do have a house sound. Not sure i would attribute all the difference to the difference in core material. I would look elsewhere before making that observation.
Sure thing. Start here: vintagemicrophonepcbkit.com/DU87.html You get the boards here. And then follow the links to the BOM and the build thread at GroupDIY. I would suggest reading the massive thread before building the D87.
Damn it's definitely cleaner but can still hear the transformer but also you're right it almost sounds a little compressed. The u87 much dirtier in low mids but more dimensionality and also heftier on the low end authoritative sound. How to combine both those into one mic?
It’s actually not a kit. You start at VintageMicrophonePCBKit.com and follow links to the BOM, schematic and build thread. For this mic, you have to acquire all the parts on your own, including the body, transformer and capsule, which you can find out more about on the giant build thread.
Wow. The DIY sounds fantastic, and much more top end sparkle. The sibilance was stronger in the DIY and I'm thinking it has a 5K bump in there. There's much more smear in the U87. For VO, I think you're quite right, Mark. The DIY will cut through nicely!
The one thing the 87 does so well is deal with that sibilance, and I can always add a little top end EQ for it, but that low mid smear is just something I never really noticed as prominently as I do now. I think the taller headbasket in the DIY contributes to that 5k bump a bit, too.
No contest, the DIY version is more oen, and sounds clearer, if with a bit of more sibilance. The original is congested, like you had a nasal problem. Definitely the DIY version is clearer.
Having built many mics, i would posit the transformer in a mic has very little effect on the overall sound. Ive swapped trafos on mics to do an actual 1:1 comparison with the same circuit different transformer. Virtually no difference when specs are the same (ratio mainly) and material is different. Really great sounding clone you have there either way! Id argue the head basket has more of an impact. And certainly the capsule makes even more of an impact on sound. The argument was made for composition of the input transformer of a mic pre as well. To be a jerk, i had built a 4 channel unit for someone and did 2 channels with nickel and 2 channels alloy and again, virtually no difference. To this day the person that owns that unit has not mentioned an audible difference between the channels and its been almost 7 years lol. Shhhh. Great vid as always! Keep ‘em comin!
This gives me an idea…
@ lol. Uh oh. Dont go voiding warranties now! Hahah. Experimentation is the key to knowledge!
"Hi, my name is Mark. I can not only hear a bee fart, but I can tell you which flower the bee has been drinking from."
The hardest part is getting the bee to let me pull its finger.
@@MarkYoshimotoNemcoff weirdly, i cannot find a "pulling a bee's finger to make it fart" emoji. Hmmm..
The DIY Clone has a much more cleaner, modern sound to my ears! I have the Danny Bouchard parts and I have to do this mod, which got put to the back burner when I moved from LA to Colorado, now I just have to find it;) You have inspired me to find the kit somewhere in the boxes in my garage, with your demo, I know I won't be dissappointed!
I have to tell you that I honestly never loved this Bouchard D87 until I had the Arienne Audio K87 in there. Made such a huge difference and now I really love this mic, so there is definitely a gem to be had in building one of these, but just make sure you put a really good capsule in there to get the most out of it.
@@MarkYoshimotoNemcoff So true about the capsule! I have a Microphone Parts K87 in another mic I was going to swap out but I would like to check out the Arienne K87....
Wow. The DIY really does sound clearer Mark. I was always impressed with the Dany components. Bet that stacks up to ANY U87 clone out there
Thanks Bill! The irony here is that I initially built this Bouchard mic 6 years ago with a different capsule with the intent that it would be a step towards better understanding how to eventually build a bespoke custom 87-style mic for my voice for voice over, and it was only now, after swapping in the new Arienne Audio K87 that I'm hearing this mic as THE mic I had been hoping to build someday because of all that added clarity. It took me that long to realize what it was that I had in hand, but just didn't have the perfect capsule for yet.
Comparing them side-by-side makes me think that the U87 really needs a bigger room to have less of that low-mid "mud". That DIY 87, though, wow!
I agree. Booths as small as mine can be problematic spaces, especially concerning the representation of the lower mids, which ironically are the most important frequencies to get dialed in for VO. Luckily, the 87 takes to EQ and resonance processing well so with it, I know it’s a track I can fix in post, or EQ on the way in if need be. But yeah, the Arienne k87 really brought the DIY 87 to life.
Your D87 is sounding great! Do you know what kind of metal the 3U GZT-84 transformer uses? That’s what I’ve got in my Fuchs 87 build.
I don’t. But that’s a great question and I’d like to find out as well now so I messaged Guosheng at 3u and I’ll let you know if he gets back to me with that info.
The tonality is much the same, but listening to the esses - the Neumann is smooth and the diy is harsh. - That’s not to say that one is better than the other, you can use it for different things.
Yeah, I’m really thinking that top end is being affected by the headbasket height.
You need to make a Nemcoff badge for that mic lol
Yeah!!! That would be pretty cool to do at some point. I have a couple of designs I've tinkered with and 3d printed in plastic, but it would be cool to get them done in some kind of metal someday.
Mumetal is very effective at sucking in the spooky magnetic ghosts, but it has a rather low saturation point, so it doesn't surprise me that it can't deal perfectly with lower freqs.
I had never really given much thought to the materials used to make transformers, but I'm starting to believe that, as with mu-metal, the more ingredients in the alloy formula, the more smeary it will sound as a result of that lower saturation point because it can't carry as much magnetic flux as a pure metal like Nickel. It's such a key variable in the tone equation for a mic, as I am now beginning to realize.
Clearer doesn't mean better, it sounds quite fatiguing. The 87 sounds more natural
True. The use case here is commercials so clearer, especially on the low mids where that mud makes your VO harder to mix, is the objective.
Hey.. i actually prefer your DIY, as the Ai sounds smooth but has something missing in the very high mids. Lispy Zone.. Nice work 👌
DIY for the win! Thank you. I think there's a whole world of u87-inspired tone that can be manipulated in DIY to get something custom-fit for your application.
I think the most interesting part of this video is that you didn’t realize it sounded better unless they were side by side! Which means maybe this stuff only matters in side by side videos.
Which means in reality… 😊it doesn’t matter much at all?
Can’t understand the why until you know the what.
Danny makes very nice job and his pcbs are definitly worth it , i v built only U47fet but i m amazed . Also UTM transformers are pretty impressive IMHO . Have You tried CHines ASTDS transformers that we see everywhere around ? i have one under hand but it s a 9.5:1 ratio so i didnt try it yet ( i tried the 9,5:1 UTM on the 47fet and it works nicely too ) . The DIY U87 sounds much more opened than the original that sounds almost "nasally" sometimes on this video ( i m biased because i have otitis now so everything sounds a bit boomy ... lol Usually i prefer "vintage sounding" most of time... )
The 47 FET kit looks amazing. I have a UTM in my “Dead Ringer” mic and it really sounds great. I’ve built a few with the $18 ASTDS transformer and I was surprised how clean those sound in comparison.
@@MarkYoshimotoNemcoff Thanks a lot , i ll give it a try
@@MarkYoshimotoNemcoff yes the 47 fet sounds amazing and now we. can get the proper body to fit the kit in , not cheap body but worth the money imho
I agree the DIY sounds better.
Thanks! When you can customize a recording tool to maximize your instrument, it takes everything to a whole different level.
@@MarkYoshimotoNemcoff Agree, I just got the Mavis Prima MPA-81s and ordered the Ariane Flat K47 capsule from your earlier recommendations. I just need it for recording the ambience in my club/studio with PA SPL levels so I think its going to be a good choice for my needs without needing to go the full Vantage route.
Love the channel BTW.
@@fx-studio Thank you so much! That's awesome about the mic! The Arienne Flat k47 is a wonder. That should work out really great with the Mavis. Please let me know how it works out for you. I'd love to hear your feedback on it.
That DIY sounds fantastic. Is there anywhere in particular I could get the parts to build one myself?
Hi Dan. You can find the rabbit hole to build a D87 like this one by starting at www.vintagemicrophonepcbkit.com/DU87.html
This is where you buy the PCB set. And then follow the link to the build thread on GroupDIY for more info. It’s an extremely well documented build that has been done by many so there’s a ton of info in that thread.
You didnt notice that every single time you spoke into the mic on the right, you were significantly closer?
It’s unfortunately the camera angle and the placement in a small booth on a tight shot. The camera is a tiny bit closer to the 87 on a slight angle and not dead on. I hadn’t noticed it until I shot it. I’m still only about 3 inches off each grill.
I did wonder about that, but does still appear *and sound* as if you are closer, listening with high end custom IEMs woth electrostatic mid and high drivers, which is about as good isolation and clarity as you will get for a test like this, there is also slightly more sibilance on the right, which can give the illusion of higher clarity. I havent checked the schematic of the capsule and mic pre under discussion to see what could contribute. Neuman do have a house sound. Not sure i would attribute all the difference to the difference in core material. I would look elsewhere before making that observation.
If you could include links to the kits/components used in the DIY build, that would be much appreciated.
Sure thing. Start here:
vintagemicrophonepcbkit.com/DU87.html
You get the boards here. And then follow the links to the BOM and the build thread at GroupDIY. I would suggest reading the massive thread before building the D87.
Damn it's definitely cleaner but can still hear the transformer but also you're right it almost sounds a little compressed. The u87 much dirtier in low mids but more dimensionality and also heftier on the low end authoritative sound. How to combine both those into one mic?
There really is nothing like the real thing. Luckily though all that extra girth in the lows and mids on the 87 are are unnecessary for what I do.
How much does the kit cost, and where can i buy one. I personally like it.
It’s actually not a kit. You start at VintageMicrophonePCBKit.com and follow links to the BOM, schematic and build thread. For this mic, you have to acquire all the parts on your own, including the body, transformer and capsule, which you can find out more about on the giant build thread.
On my Shure in-ear monitors I can't really hear much of a difference between the two I mean there's something but it's so slight
I'll take that as a win.
The clone is brighter. It’s not in the mids. The real mic has a richer tone. The clone is a little thinner. They both sound good.
Thanks!
Wow. The DIY sounds fantastic, and much more top end sparkle. The sibilance was stronger in the DIY and I'm thinking it has a 5K bump in there. There's much more smear in the U87. For VO, I think you're quite right, Mark. The DIY will cut through nicely!
The one thing the 87 does so well is deal with that sibilance, and I can always add a little top end EQ for it, but that low mid smear is just something I never really noticed as prominently as I do now. I think the taller headbasket in the DIY contributes to that 5k bump a bit, too.
There is more lowend on the real one.
Yup. There definitely is.
No contest, the DIY version is more oen, and sounds clearer, if with a bit of more sibilance. The original is congested, like you had a nasal problem. Definitely the DIY version is clearer.
Thanks! Yeah, it is almost like a congestion in that low mid mud.