In the text that went with this video I stated, “I have no interest in publicly debating the issue further. I’ve heard the “best” counterarguments, considered them, and rejected them. If you watch anyway, and don’t agree with what you see, I would suggest that you make your own video explaining your position which you can link to in the comments. Viewers can then compare and contrast our videos and make up their own minds which position makes most sense to them.” I fully intend to stick by that. Time is always very limited for me and I’m not getting sucked in to the blackhole of pointless debate that the last video generated. This sentiment is also echoed in the video itself. I do believe that the evidence for this - practically, tactically, physically, physiologically and historically - only points one way. Everyone is more than welcome to disagree and link to their own videos in the comments. However, I have no desire to convert those who disagree and attempts to convert me are pointless for the reasons given in the text and video. With that said, I hope people understand why I am not engaging in the comments. I’ve said everything I intend to. I’d rather use the time to play with my kids :-) All the best, Iain
practicalkatabunkai Sensei Abernethy thank you for sharing your in depth knowledge and articulate thoughts about karate even when faced by the overwhelming wave of internet comments and trolls. 👊🥋🦶
Hello Iain. Just wanted to say that pulling your hand back to the hip for power generation in a real fight is utter lunacy. The ONLY practical use for the non punching hand is to be pulling an opposing arm away to take away his guard, put the opponent into a disadvantageous position and take away one of his weapons. There is no doubt that your interpretation is the correct one and people with opposing views do not just have a different view, they are simply wrong.
I completely agree with everything you said in your video. I was trying to find maybe another reason for the pulling hand as being anyway to control a limb during a take down.
@@Tiremonkey907 Most grapping techniques make use of both hands, so there are definitely times when the pulling hands is being used in that way is the lock here: ua-cam.com/video/MlS5Y_-QY04/v-deo.html Hikite is also used in some takedowns: ua-cam.com/video/ylULQU-ouhU/v-deo.html This video focuses on its use in striking because that is where I feel the greatest confusion is. I hope that helps and thanks for watching the video.
Your position on Hikite is supported by all of the historical figures of Karate (Funakoshi, Motobu, Chojun Myagi, etc.etc.) and by those of the modern era who understand - Patrick McCarthy Hanshi ,The Dragon Society International and yourself notably. To deny the obvious is to bury your head in the sand which many are exceptionally good at doing. Hikite was misinterpreted during the 20th century and that misinterpretation was fanatically repeated as if it were gospel. Thank you for your intelligent,scientifically sustainable insight.
In chinese martial art there is a saying " the hand never back empty " that means that grabing + pulling has a functional/tactical objective and not necessarily related with power generation or keep balance. Historically the power gereation idea born in late 50's early 60's when JKA tried to give a scientific validation using an engineering and biomechanical analysis creating robot like karatecas exchanging effectivity for mechanical efficiency and estetic this is the main difference between Okinawan and Japanese Karate versions. If you read very old Karate books you will find a "type of hand" named Hinerite (twist hand) and this is the lost component of Hikite, because to make really effective Hikite you need to add Hinerite to twist the opponent arm in a kind of wrench to destroy the opponent stance and nullify his counterattack capacity. BTW, twisting your own arm in Hikite makes more powerful your pull (Hikite). Tai Chi Chuan martial oriented has many examples of that
The TRUE application of HIKITE effectively illustrates Okinawan/Japanese Karate's Chinese origins. Hikite is IDENTICAL to Lop Sau from Wing Chun. Same principle. Same application. Even some of the flow/sensitivity drills I've seen you previously demonstrate can also be found in Wing Chun. Absolutely fascinating! Thank you for being so passionate about sharing your knowledge and insights on the originally intended application these techniques. You're truly brilliant and a credit to your art, Sir.
Hi, I am training both martial arts and I can tell you that you are right. WC /WT explain me a lot about the background of Karate. I think a lot of my misunderstandings came out of my aim to make Kihon and Kata movements perfectly and by the way I forgot the real reason for these movements (protect myself and fight). The challenge is the stony way to get rid of that muscle memory. I hope that will help someone. Bye Willy
Give anyone who is free thinking enough experience in training various systems of martial arts, and invariably they will all head down this path of logical conclusions. Loved the addition of the idea that you aren't actually drawing the hikite back so much as you are moving to it. That was a new gem for me. I constantly ask my students the question, "is it easier for you to move your attacker or to move yourself?" Thank you, sir.
if Karate has its roots in southern kung fu systems like white crane, dragon fist and other Hakka styles then the concepts of SAM TUNG ( three ways over the bridge) and Kui Sao (bridge controlling) will also show up. Your explanation verifies this. We always try to control the opponents' bridges- KUI ( arms and legs) and find a way "over." The Three ways are over, under or around. So yes as your saying and showing touch and find his bridge, control his bridge and strike him by going over-under or around. Its a problem I see many wing chun people get into as they try to take their art and Spar or DUEL with it and then lose all the effective bridge controlling techniques these styles are blessed with. I have studied and taught various southern styles for 45 years and I was always taught to use hikite methods. great job here sir!
Really good video, I'm here thanks to Jesse and I find your work really, really interesting. Funny enough I'm not a Karateka but I'm reconstructing an ancient Italian Martial Art named "Armizare" which is both practiced with weapons and without weapons, in armour and without armor. Watching your way of reconstructing Karate using historical sources is extremely inspiring and interesting too. Cheers! Federico
A lot of karate practitioners don't realize that they also have kakie ( push) hands in their kata especially in Sanchin kata. Very few have any idea how, to employ this method in sparring as well. Your brilliant in you bunkai applications and, experimentation helps with the growth and, practical use of the kata's. There is also a term rarely used called hindi (Okinawaian language) which means to change hands which is exactly what hiki-te is used for during practical kumite.
My background is in a different style. I find it great that this video highlights what I have seen in my own sparring for years- that some sticking contact or even a grab acts as a guide to make your hits more effective and accurate. Full agreement with the points presented here, and some good drills and explanations.
I assumed from the first time I saw it that it was a grab and pull motion because that was how we fought in school. You grab the shirt or jacket and start punching. It's why the first pre fight move was to take off both if you had time. Karate is as much a grappling art as it is striking,
People have difficulty with hikite not being for power because it induces cognitive dissonance. The information they have received has been inundated for so long, they are freaked out the moment their martial worldview is outright demonstrated to be in error. It is simply human to get upset when they are told they have the wrong information about something. Even MMA fighters have this when they discover real time, live traditional martial arts for the same reason. Fallacies are quickly adopted, but difficult to correct when done so.
I have spent 30 years in the Chinese martial arts ( Hung, Hop, Mok Ga styles ) and I will relate what I was taught and perhaps add their perspective does the arts I have studied. It was more esoteric. One side becomes heavy the other light. It was about learning a feeling. The goal is to teach the twisting of the hips while keeping balance. Chambering facilitates the feeling without leading to double weightedness.
Thank's for posting this, I struggled with the logic of the chambering of the fist unless it was a grab or pull. If your sparing both arms would stay in front for the most part to hit and block. Power and speed come from the hips and core "if you know how to use them" not all schools focus on that, so the power is not from the chamber necessarily, it is to create memory to keep connected to our cor for power. Thanks again for sharing your research on this topic.
I myself have long agreed with this point-of-view, explaining to students that a hand pulled to hikite in any self defense situation needs to contain the clothing or a body part of the opponent. Similarly I also encourage it to be used as an elbow to the rear as the situation demands, or as a jolt on the neck/rear of head. Must steal some of those drills ...
Interesting explanation. Would you say that in kata practice, the hikite being being brought all the way back to your hip and rotating the hand so it's palm up is simply an over-exaggeration to help train the principle? I noticed when you did the demonstrations with your partner, there wasn't nearly the same type of rotation of the hand when doing it. Nor did your hand go completely back tightly to the hip as usually done in the forms (other than the step forward one, where it kind of just ended up at the hip because of the step. But even then, it seemed really loose).
It also keeps them off balance. People have a hard time punching while they are being pulled off balance . I think they call it kuzushi. Very difficult to retaliate when you are off balance. Very nice video. Thank you for Sharing.
You are talking total sense, ignore the doubters. Most know it to be the truth, but they have have taught it incorrectly for so long they can't change it now. . I was taught always create a base before striking, that is was Hikite is for, creating a base one way or another. I have been a Student of Karate for over 50 years. Good on you Iain. Cheers
I appreciate the video! Not to denigrate Karate in any way - definitely not my place - but it's interesting how this sort of thing is obvious to practitioners of other martial arts. Like, from a jkd or silat point of view, *of course* an arm moving towards the martial artists's hip is an arm that holds some part of the opponent, probably his arm or elbow joint or neck.
When people get back to training Karate as a genuine form of self defence, rather than a way to score points in a tournament, this will become the norm. Real fights rarely have space between the combatants, and they certainly don't move in and out on each other. Proper hikite will stop that happening! In tournament sparring, there is space and a constant closing and opening of the space between the combatants. That's not a fight, it's a point scoring contest....
Ian, this short video right here put more meaning into Karate punching than just about anything I have ever been taught or seen. Thanks!👍🤠👍 I am going to sign up for the monthly app you have.
There's always going to be people who don't want to accept that what they've dedicated much of their lives to and what their teachers have told them is wrong. To them what their grandmasters taught is doctrine and anything to the contrary is wrong. Likely never going to change their minds.
Thanks so much, Ian, the penny dropped when you said that your hand doesn’t actually move when you step forward! Now I really get it! Can‘t wait to try it out!
When I first started researching historical photos of karate about 45 years ago, beyond formal exercises, it was rare to find any image that was not using hiki-te as Iain does. While it wasn't technically legal in sparring in particular schools, I had great success using what I'll call jamming and covering.
It is so refreshing to see/hear someone put forward an opinion that not only makes sense and can be backed up with physical examples, but also agrees with mine. 😎 So many people I know don't train that way, "because you wouldn't pull your hand back like that in a real fight!", and then there are those who do believe it adds power... 😏 I recently opened my own school, and a friend from my original Goju Ryu school came along to be my assistant, even though he's a higher rank, because of this kind of thing that our old instructor told us was wrong and wasn't open to seeing a different opinion from a lower rank... I have found that my attitude of "question everything" doesn't go over too well... 😁
Yes indeed. As a hung gar practitioner i also use this method. Any time the non striking hand is pulling or dropping it is applied as grabbing/trapping or clearing the path. People who say otherwise have just got it wrong 😉
So read the whole sentence ;-) Hikite is designed to learn power generation . . . in the withdrawing / pulling hand so if you grab something in that hand, you've learned the correct alignment and muscle engagement for a good hard pull. The issue is, most people just pull the hand back w/o understanding about using the back muscles and having the shoulder blade move towards the spine to get max muscle engagement. So in those cases they aren't being taught anything during the fundamental practice.
Hi Iain I agree the purpose isn't to generate power but would say a bi product with 'modern' karate is power, causing the target to move towards you increases the speed (power = strength x speed) and while its not the purpose its easy to understand how people have misinterpreted what has been said
Good video. In the beguinner form for the WuShu style I studied there i a similar movement in a punch. But we performed the grab. So for us, the hand to the hip was a grab and a punch with the other hand.
I remember one of my first senseis years and years ago told us that hikite was supposed to represent grabbing your opponent. Then a few years later he had apparently forgotten about it, and was back to insisting that we pull as hard and fast as we could in order to generate power.
Just now something differnent clicked!!!!! The shuto Uke for framing is the opposite of the hikite. if the attacker is crashing into you you frame to maintai guard, if he is fleeing you hikite!!!!
Muchas gracias Sensei Iain por compartir tus conocimientos y tus estudios en el karate-Jutsu, de verdad a veces el Bunkai más simple es el más efectivo y probablemente esa era la intención de los antiguos Maestros. Domoarigato Sensei Iain
i'm only a green belt and this seems more logical to me than it being to generate power, if you are throwing your hip anyway i'm not sure what power it would add.
When you step forward in the obverse punch (same foot stepping forward, same hand punching), the junzuke-oizuke, couldn't the rear leg stepping forward be a shorthand for a kick, or a knee, or a flying knee, a la, Muay Thai, as well?
I agree with you 100 percent. I think the whole objective of karate was lost somehow when it went from Okinawa to Mainland. However, for the purpose of learning the basics of hip work and body movement, I think hiki te helps a great deal. And by my own experience it helps generate power as well. But yes, the purpose of hiki te in karate is to pull the opponent while you are striking.
Hello Iain, I get the Idea of pulling limbs out of the way to have a clear shot aswell as locating your target with propriception but could you clarify again why you want some force going to the pulling hand? Why not instead pivot from all the way out such that you get Maximum power in your strike instead of pulling your enemy into your fist?
Thanks for the comment and question. It basically comes down to how tactics often mean we need to sacrifice maximum power i.e. a super-powerful shot that doesn’t connect is of no value. Whilst a HUGE swing will be more powerful than a tight hook, the huge swing could be so grossly telegraphed and slow (comparatively speaking) that it stands a good chance of not connecting. Therefore, the tight hook will do lots of damage whereas the huge swing that does not connect - while theoretically stronger - will do no damage at all. When this comes to hikite, we use it to clear limbs (because if the strike connects with a limb instead of the jaw it will do no meaningful damage), and to locate the enemy (because if the shot misses, it will do no damage at all). Therefore, we may need some power to clear the limb (the enemy often instinctively tenses when we start moving their arm) and we may need some power to “jolt” the enemy so they have to momentarily adjust which gives both the location (proprioception) and time to land the shot. Slight aside, but we don’t really “pull the enemy onto the punch”. I know that is oft repeated in the karate world, along with the alleged two cars crashing head-on simile, but it does not really work due to the huge differential in your active mass and acceleration compared with the mass and acceleration you can generate in the enemy through pulling (people are heavy, resist and have inertia). Furthermore, even if the enemy could be pulled forwards in such a way, it would reduce the distance for the strike such that your own rate of acceleration (increase in the rate of speed, not speed) would be reduced, hence the power of the strike would also be reduced. The mass and velocity active induced into enemy does not compensate for this loss. I added a video on this very topic to the app yesterday. Anyhow, in short, we need sometimes need power in the pulling hand so it can do what it needs to do. In those instances, we can get that power by shifting the pivot point towards the pulling hand and away from the striking hand (how much we shift that pivot depends on the circumstance). It will reduce the power in the striking hand, but the pulling hand will ensure the strike hits. If a strike does not hit, it can’t do anything. Hence, it is a sound tactical trade off. All the best, Iain
@@practicalkatabunkai Thank you for taking time to respond. I was unsure about the "jolt" you demonstrated at about 15-16 minutes and your statement that hikite does not pull your enemy into your punches. It seemed Like you were pulling your opponent into your Punch there so I was confused. One other thing that Just came to mind as I am writing this is the applications of age uke and uchi uke(by that I mean ua-cam.com/video/jk9WUqrX1SQ/v-deo.html), when the strike into the elbow Joint is Performed the head Drops Forward and is then Met by the end of the technique. Does this add Power to the Strike or does it only Put the enemy into a better position?
@@thibautklinger5178 I’m pleased that helped. Every situation is different, and combat is chaotic and fluid. So, how much you pull / jolt will vary, but the key is to ensure the maximum power for a punch that is likely to land. On the age-uke / uchi-uke you are primarily disrupting the enemy’s posture to expose the jaw / neck. However, there will be some increase in power there - particularly on the age uke and particularly if they are taller than you - because target will only move in a given amount i.e their chin won’t hit the floor because you struck the elbow, so the chance of smothering the strike is greatly reduced. I hope that helps.
I agree in the importance and use if hikite as you have stated. Your applications and drills are stellar. I however have a slightly different conclusion. Please bare with me as I am not disagreeing with you. My own studies have proven to my mind that it can be also used to generate power. This can be measured using impact devices and demonstrated using physics equations. For me I have seen over and over that many techniques from katas have multiple applications. Sometimes there is a more applicable or what I consider primary application with the secondary usually reserved for a special use scenario. I agree that grasping, sensing and pulling is the primary use of Hikite. You are absolutely correct. I believe that power generation is a secondary, special use, application and the primary application does not mean that this secondary application can not exist. The secondary or special use is as a finishing blow with a clear or cleared shot. To me the emphasis on distance sparing in modern karate has led to the reversal (incorrectly) of the perceived primary purpose of hikite. I am in full agreement with you other than the belief that the primary application does not eliminate the secondary application in specific circumstances. This multiple application opinion is my own but stems from the multiple application teachings of my Shidokan Shorin Ryu instructors including Sensei Iha, Sensei Miyahira and others who’s experience and training coincides with Sensei Funakoshi’s. Thank you for your excellent and applicable video. I appreciate your knowledge.
This is a little off topic, but I recall one time you mentioning. That you had a college that did Wing Chun and broke it down with practical applications much like you're doing with karate. Do you happen to have his name? Thanks in advance.
That could have been one of my teachers, Peter Consterdine 9th dan (who has also studied Wing Chun in addition to karate) … or Alan Gibson. Both make good use of Wing Chun within a pragmatic framework.
So thank you for your video and I heard that u don’t want to debate it but maybe u didn’t Heard this on. I am a practitioner of Boxing and Chinese martial arts and I was at first a bit confused after I saw that hikide is based on 引 this character and for an Chinese martial arts guy this is in it self not pulling it’s actually extending or like if u would stretch a chewing gum . Maybe the interpretation in the Japanese language is totally different (I am not an expert for that ) . For example 引弓 stretching the bow. In CMA it’s used for explaining the tension of the shoulder belt through the hands (arms) and in boxing they of course don’t use the term but one can find it always when they practice full force jabs , crosses or overhands in the guard hand. But anyway I don’t get why it can’t be both : a force generating and a tactical side in one . Regards ( no offense )
I think the reason it can’t be both is one of them makes no sense tactically, scientifically or physically, and it is also contrary to the writings of the past masters who explained its true purpose. Pulling an empty hand to the hip will not increase power, but it will leave you wide open and slow the rate of fire. Gripping the enemy’s arm to open them up, and locating the enemy via the use of proprioception, does work through and is how the method is explained in early karate documents. It is only when karate shifts to being a modern budo, and them emphasis shifts to fighting a fellow karateka at distance, that hand on the hip is “explained” as power generation; a practise that needs no explanation when we consider its active use at close range. In short, one position has lots of evidence and information to support it, whereas the other is baseless. I accept others have differing views on the matter. However, I personally can’t see the logic of the “power generation” position. All the best, Iain
There is at least one case where hikite CAN increase the power of a hit. In uraken to the side hikite can (if practiced) increase the power by inducing the back muscles to work in moving the upper arm. So far that is the only one I have found.
Generally speaking during a full contact kumite it is not a very good idea to do a big hikite. So the kata's hikite is for training purpose. Mainly of your back muscles - without practicing hikite you will not be able to launch a long and actually strong punch. The latter is also due to the hikite but in a very subtle way that is not possible to explain in a few words. The best way to understand it is to practice with a wooden stick. Yet again unless this exercise is done correctly this will not be of much use.
As per the video, I would disagree. Pulling an empty hand to the hip is always a bad idea in combat. However, at close-range, the hand is better used actively as opposed to being held in a passive guard. In solo training, it always represents holding something to clear a path for strikes or locate the target. Boxers and other combat athletes can punch just fine without the need to engrain what would be a bad combative habit.
I 100% agree with you, but how do you see this working in Naha-te kata like Sanchin where the pulling hand is also the striking hand and the other hand/arm remains stationary? If I imagine the stationary arm is holding one of his off and I use the pulling arm to clear his other but then let go to strike wouldn't his arm likely snap back in place as well? Of course there are other scenarios I can imagine but I would love to hear your thoughts.
One hand creating its own path while the other hands is busy elsewhere is common. It’s very hard to react faster that the action you are reacting too. It is possible they can get their arm back in the way as you release to strike, but it’s not likely. This recent clip shows the idea from a fighting perspective (as opposed to a self defence one): instagram.com/p/B1yFpriHP7S/ This video also show the self-protection expression of the idea at the start: instagram.com/p/B2jCUNin0Cz/
Lets be honest, an overhand right beats a reverse punch every day of the week and twice on Tuesday. I see no reason to practice something that I have no understanding of how it's even supposed to work in the first place. I enjoyed your talk, but can you imagine this type of discussion happening at a boxing gym?
Imagine that kind of discussion at a boxing gym? Yeah, but only if you were kicking back and talking about things like historical boxing. Like wondering why the old bare knuckle fighters like Jon L. Sullivan used that lower guard, or why Dempsey liked a vertical-fist punch. It strikes me that a lot of what Abernathy is doing with Karate is like unraveling history...with some big gaps in the record. Modern boxing is straight up science.
The reverse punch is merely a cross or a straight punch from the rear side if you prefer. The overhand punch exists in karate as well. The choice between then is largely based on available targets and relative angles. If boxers were fighting bare knuckled and wearing jackets it would look a lot like karate. Dont forget full contact karate is a thing too.
Thank God someone that's worked out the real techniques in karate practiced karate with misguided teachers gave up after yellow belt now I'm older but interested again
Iain, here’s another use for hikite. If you pull back a closed fist against an opponent’s jaw, it is very damaging. Same for other body parts like underarm, ribs, etc.
Jujitsu waza confirms he is correct but boxers also counter pull the opposite limb... empty handed fighting uses the counter pull 4 many reasons tests on the heavy bag show the counter pull is a small part of the power n the punch but needed 4 a follow-up cool vid
As a judoka I clicked on this with very different expectations and was a little confused as the video progressed. Then I saw them him in his gi with folded sleeves and understood that this was definitely not going to be about any judo hikite HAHAHA
Absolutely. When we appreciate the mess, we can appreciate the needs to try to impose some order on that chaos. It can be hard to get off a clear shot one we are beyond the pre-emptive stage. Rather than have the non-striking hand passive, it can help clear a path and locate the target.
We definitely need to learn to punch from natural positions; especially when it comes to pre-emption … but an empty hand pulled to the first isn’t such a natural position and won’t develop the skills needed. There are well-documented and very good reasons to have the hand close to your hip in combat (when part of the enemy is in that hand). That hand was never intended to be empty in application through and but people keep coming up with justifications for it. When we understand the actual practical reasons for hikite in kata, we can drop all those justifications.
Dear Sensei Abernethy, I have a question. It's about the forms included in traditional Taekwon-Do. As most ppl know they are based off the heian and pinan kata from Shotokan. but however I have come to believe that General Choi Hong Hi who is the founder of traditional Taekwondo did not even understand the correct applications to those forms when he created the TKD forms. I have seen pretty much every single historical recording and book from Choi Hong Hi about the forms of Tkd and in neither of those he actually explains and shows more practical applications of the form movements expect for the typical blocking and striking applications. And he also lists the Hikite purpose as power generation. So does that mean traditional Tkd has been created based off a misunderstanding of Karate?
The idea that hikite generates power is found in more recent karate texts too … but it’s flawed tactically, historically and physiologically. As I say in the video, it’s a mistake that originates when the methods of the kata are shifted from close-range to long-range (which they were never intended for). I’ve never done TKD, but it does not surprise me that the faulty idea has spread there too due to the close relationship between the arts.
Well to be fair okinawan karate isn't the only component that influenced Taekwondo. Various forms of continental far eastern martial arts also had a strong impact on it as well. It's possible that Taekwondo (and possibly even Japanese karate) could benefit more from comparing and looking into styles like traditional Northern Chinese long arm styles and Taekkyeon, considering that they also emphasize long range combat.
@@adenyang4398 actually I do practice Long Fist Kung Fu and it is not a long range fighting style at all. Actually there is no kung fu style where you do not fight in close range. Bc you are always actively trying to control and trap your enemies arms and then execute takedowns or strikes
Nytro Dralyg I agree with what you stated wholeheartedly. In addition, I also would like to apologize using the term "long range fighting", as it can be very misleading. What I meant by longfist and taekkyeon being "long range" was that while they are very sophisticated close combat arts much like Okinawan karate, they have different approaches and philosophies compared to those of styles like the latter, especially when in comes to footwork/movement/stancework and tactics. Longfist styles and taekkyeon also include extensive amounts of deflecting, bridging, and grappling techniques that can help open way for kicks, which obviously would help Taekwondo a lot.
@@adenyang4398 yes this is true. As I said I know this, because I am practicing Long Fist/Chang Quan by myself. A funny thing is that I am studying the Long Fist form Tan Tui now which means Springing Legs/Kicks, but yet there isn't actually a single kick in the form. You can look up the form. Everytime you are doing the front kick like movement you are actually making a step, because the opponent has also taken a step backwards in order for example to avoid getting thrown by you. Correction there is a flying front kick in the later parts of the form. So the kicking like movement is actually only some kind of symbolism for a step with the rear leg
with the due respect, I disagree with you in the sense that one thing does not at all rule out the other. No real karate athlete has ever believed that hikite generates per se more power, but it trains the body , the HIP to move rapidly and effectively. This hip movement can BOTH help to keep and restore balance if pushed in a closed range fight AND-OR to transfer power from your entire back to your shoulder and ultimately to yourvì punch. Why do you have to deny one side when they are part of the same bio dynamics?
YOU WROTE: “with the due respect, I disagree with you” Goes without saying :-) I’ve never felt disrespected simply because someone disagrees. YOU WROTE: “No real karate athlete has ever believed that hikite generates per se more power” I can disprove that absolute claim simply by asking you to look at the comments on these videos (here and on Facebook). Loads do believe it add power in and of itself. Additionally, the concept is put forth in numerous books including those of master level practitioners i.e. Masatoshi Nakayama’s hugely influential “Best Karate” series YOU WROTE: “but it trains the body , the HIP to move rapidly and effectively.” It’s also entirely unnecessary. You can train those things without pulling an empty hand to the hip (as boxers, etc do) and avoid the bad habits of leaving oneself wide open, slowing down the rate of fire, sacrificing control of the enemy, etc). I’m 100% behind the tactical use of hikite. The “power generation” idea has little to support it in my view. If there is a good argument for it; I’ve yet to hear it. YOU WROTE: “Why do you have to deny one side when they are part of the same bio dynamics?” The body mechanics that most put forth in an attempt to justify an empty hand on the hip in actual application are fundamentally flawed in my view, for the reason stated in the video. As I also say in the video, I’m not seeking to covert others to my way of thinking. I’m simply sharing my thinking for those who may find it interesting or useful. I therefore hope these clarifications are of value in helping understand where I am coming from; even if you disagree. All the best, Iain
I was going to respond to some of these points in the OP but its all been done. As a long time boxing and CMA hung gar practitioner im 100% on board with the video message. There is no case for the off hand at the hip for power. I've always used it for grabbing/trapping/clearing, or in clinch situations for control and posture breaking to set up throws/takedowns.
Either have a part of their body or hit them on the way back. Either way my offhand is going to be doing SOMETHING. Otherwise you are wasting motion. The only thing I would say critical about the video is bunkai absolutely works against other Karate fighters. When you do Kumite DO NOT forget the lessons from Bunkai. I beat a lot of people that showed up to a Kumite thinking it was sport. Nope. It was a fight. It just had rules so it didn't get out of hand & get people hurt.
Good stuff. Love it. Fully agree with it. It’s ludicrous that Hikite would ever be what the McDojos say it is. Utter non-sense. Always believed this is what Hikite was, even as it is in Judo to this day.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
In the text that went with this video I stated, “I have no interest in publicly debating the issue further. I’ve heard the “best” counterarguments, considered them, and rejected them. If you watch anyway, and don’t agree with what you see, I would suggest that you make your own video explaining your position which you can link to in the comments. Viewers can then compare and contrast our videos and make up their own minds which position makes most sense to them.”
I fully intend to stick by that. Time is always very limited for me and I’m not getting sucked in to the blackhole of pointless debate that the last video generated. This sentiment is also echoed in the video itself.
I do believe that the evidence for this - practically, tactically, physically, physiologically and historically - only points one way. Everyone is more than welcome to disagree and link to their own videos in the comments. However, I have no desire to convert those who disagree and attempts to convert me are pointless for the reasons given in the text and video.
With that said, I hope people understand why I am not engaging in the comments. I’ve said everything I intend to. I’d rather use the time to play with my kids :-)
All the best,
Iain
practicalkatabunkai Sensei Abernethy thank you for sharing your in depth knowledge and articulate thoughts about karate even when faced by the overwhelming wave of internet comments and trolls.
👊🥋🦶
Hello Iain. Just wanted to say that pulling your hand back to the hip for power generation in a real fight is utter lunacy. The ONLY practical use for the non punching hand is to be pulling an opposing arm away to take away his guard, put the opponent into a disadvantageous position and take away one of his weapons. There is no doubt that your interpretation is the correct one and people with opposing views do not just have a different view, they are simply wrong.
I completely agree with everything you said in your video. I was trying to find maybe another reason for the pulling hand as being anyway to control a limb during a take down.
@@Tiremonkey907 Most grapping techniques make use of both hands, so there are definitely times when the pulling hands is being used in that way is the lock here: ua-cam.com/video/MlS5Y_-QY04/v-deo.html Hikite is also used in some takedowns: ua-cam.com/video/ylULQU-ouhU/v-deo.html This video focuses on its use in striking because that is where I feel the greatest confusion is. I hope that helps and thanks for watching the video.
Your position on Hikite is supported by all of the historical figures of Karate (Funakoshi, Motobu, Chojun Myagi, etc.etc.) and by those of the modern era who understand - Patrick McCarthy Hanshi ,The Dragon Society International and yourself notably. To deny the obvious is to bury your head in the sand which many are exceptionally good at doing. Hikite was misinterpreted during the 20th century and that misinterpretation was fanatically repeated as if it were gospel. Thank you for your intelligent,scientifically sustainable insight.
In chinese martial art there is a saying " the hand never back empty " that means that grabing + pulling has a functional/tactical objective and not necessarily related with power generation or keep balance. Historically the power gereation idea born in late 50's early 60's when JKA tried to give a scientific validation using an engineering and biomechanical analysis creating robot like karatecas exchanging effectivity for mechanical efficiency and estetic this is the main difference between Okinawan and Japanese Karate versions. If you read very old Karate books you will find a "type of hand" named Hinerite (twist hand) and this is the lost component of Hikite, because to make really effective Hikite you need to add Hinerite to twist the opponent arm in a kind of wrench to destroy the opponent stance and nullify his counterattack capacity. BTW, twisting your own arm in Hikite makes more powerful your pull (Hikite). Tai Chi Chuan martial oriented has many examples of that
It’s for making the cool snapping sound while you hit with the other hand. Right, eh?
Brillaint :-)
The TRUE application of HIKITE effectively illustrates Okinawan/Japanese Karate's Chinese origins. Hikite is IDENTICAL to Lop Sau from Wing Chun. Same principle. Same application. Even some of the flow/sensitivity drills I've seen you previously demonstrate can also be found in Wing Chun. Absolutely fascinating!
Thank you for being so passionate about sharing your knowledge and insights on the originally intended application these techniques.
You're truly brilliant and a credit to your art, Sir.
In this video you can really see that Karate and Wing Chun are cousins with a common Chinese ancestry. Brilliant video.
Hi, I am training both martial arts and I can tell you that you are right. WC /WT explain me a lot about the background of Karate. I think a lot of my misunderstandings came out of my aim to make Kihon and Kata movements perfectly and by the way I forgot the real reason for these movements (protect myself and fight). The challenge is the stony way to get rid of that muscle memory. I hope that will help someone. Bye Willy
Give anyone who is free thinking enough experience in training various systems of martial arts, and invariably they will all head down this path of logical conclusions. Loved the addition of the idea that you aren't actually drawing the hikite back so much as you are moving to it. That was a new gem for me. I constantly ask my students the question, "is it easier for you to move your attacker or to move yourself?" Thank you, sir.
if Karate has its roots in southern kung fu systems like white crane, dragon fist and other Hakka styles then the concepts of SAM TUNG ( three ways over the bridge) and Kui Sao (bridge controlling) will also show up. Your explanation verifies this. We always try to control the opponents' bridges- KUI ( arms and legs) and find a way "over." The Three ways are over, under or around. So yes as your saying and showing touch and find his bridge, control his bridge and strike him by going over-under or around. Its a problem I see many wing chun people get into as they try to take their art and Spar or DUEL with it and then lose all the effective bridge controlling techniques these styles are blessed with. I have studied and taught various southern styles for 45 years and I was always taught to use hikite methods. great job here sir!
Really good video, I'm here thanks to Jesse and I find your work really, really interesting. Funny enough I'm not a Karateka but I'm reconstructing an ancient Italian Martial Art named "Armizare" which is both practiced with weapons and without weapons, in armour and without armor. Watching your way of reconstructing Karate using historical sources is extremely inspiring and interesting too.
Cheers!
Federico
I'm pleased you like it and are finding it useful!
Undiluted enthusiasm and humour. Thought provoking videos. Excellent.
I gotta say you raising the bunkai of hikite years back really revived a lot of practial fighting and opened doors of my visualisation
A lot of karate practitioners don't realize that they also have kakie ( push) hands in their kata especially in Sanchin kata. Very few have any idea how, to employ this method in sparring as well. Your brilliant in you bunkai applications and, experimentation helps with the growth and, practical use of the kata's. There is also a term rarely used called hindi (Okinawaian language) which means to change hands which is exactly what hiki-te is used for during practical kumite.
How do you use push hands in kumite?
My background is in a different style. I find it great that this video highlights what I have seen in my own sparring for years- that some sticking contact or even a grab acts as a guide to make your hits more effective and accurate. Full agreement with the points presented here, and some good drills and explanations.
I assumed from the first time I saw it that it was a grab and pull motion because that was how we fought in school. You grab the shirt or jacket and start punching. It's why the first pre fight move was to take off both if you had time. Karate is as much a grappling art as it is striking,
People have difficulty with hikite not being for power because it induces cognitive dissonance. The information they have received has been inundated for so long, they are freaked out the moment their martial worldview is outright demonstrated to be in error.
It is simply human to get upset when they are told they have the wrong information about something. Even MMA fighters have this when they discover real time, live traditional martial arts for the same reason. Fallacies are quickly adopted, but difficult to correct when done so.
Yeah, it's hard to admit when your wrong.
Wait martial arts that were created for street combat, warfare, duels don't work now lol. Mma guys crack me up
Thank goodness someone has finally stated this info.
It was always there if someone dug into the history of the systems. I use to pour over books on gongfu and karate.
Thank you for your tireless pursuit in sharing this valuable information.
I have spent 30 years in the Chinese martial arts ( Hung, Hop, Mok Ga styles ) and I will relate what I was taught and perhaps add their perspective does the arts I have studied. It was more esoteric. One side becomes heavy the other light. It was about learning a feeling. The goal is to teach the twisting of the hips while keeping balance. Chambering facilitates the feeling without leading to double weightedness.
Thank's for posting this, I struggled with the logic of the chambering of the fist unless it was a grab or pull. If your sparing both arms would stay in front for the most part to hit and block. Power and speed come from the hips and core "if you know how to use them" not all schools focus on that, so the power is not from the chamber necessarily, it is to create memory to keep connected to our cor for power. Thanks again for sharing your research on this topic.
I myself have long agreed with this point-of-view, explaining to students that a hand pulled to hikite in any self defense situation needs to contain the clothing or a body part of the opponent. Similarly I also encourage it to be used as an elbow to the rear as the situation demands, or as a jolt on the neck/rear of head. Must steal some of those drills ...
Interesting explanation. Would you say that in kata practice, the hikite being being brought all the way back to your hip and rotating the hand so it's palm up is simply an over-exaggeration to help train the principle? I noticed when you did the demonstrations with your partner, there wasn't nearly the same type of rotation of the hand when doing it. Nor did your hand go completely back tightly to the hip as usually done in the forms (other than the step forward one, where it kind of just ended up at the hip because of the step. But even then, it seemed really loose).
It also keeps them off balance. People have a hard time punching while they are being pulled off balance . I think they call it kuzushi. Very difficult to retaliate when you are off balance. Very nice video. Thank you for Sharing.
You are talking total sense, ignore the doubters. Most know it to be the truth, but they have have taught it incorrectly for so long they can't change it now. . I was taught always create a base before striking, that is was Hikite is for, creating a base one way or another. I have been a Student of Karate for over 50 years. Good on you Iain. Cheers
I appreciate the video!
Not to denigrate Karate in any way - definitely not my place - but it's interesting how this sort of thing is obvious to practitioners of other martial arts. Like, from a jkd or silat point of view, *of course* an arm moving towards the martial artists's hip is an arm that holds some part of the opponent, probably his arm or elbow joint or neck.
I really hope this will be the norm in karate in a decade or two
It was several decades ago ... back to the future! :-)
When people get back to training Karate as a genuine form of self defence, rather than a way to score points in a tournament, this will become the norm. Real fights rarely have space between the combatants, and they certainly don't move in and out on each other. Proper hikite will stop that happening! In tournament sparring, there is space and a constant closing and opening of the space between the combatants. That's not a fight, it's a point scoring contest....
Ian, this short video right here put more meaning into Karate punching than just about anything I have ever been taught or seen. Thanks!👍🤠👍 I am going to sign up for the monthly app you have.
I'm pleased it helps and thanks of the support!
I don't understand the thumbs down. This sensei is great, and I'm not even a karateka
There's always going to be people who don't want to accept that what they've dedicated much of their lives to and what their teachers have told them is wrong. To them what their grandmasters taught is doctrine and anything to the contrary is wrong. Likely never going to change their minds.
Because there still martial arts cults.
Thanks so much, Ian, the penny dropped when you said that your hand doesn’t actually move when you step forward! Now I really get it! Can‘t wait to try it out!
I'm pleased that helped!
When I first started researching historical photos of karate about 45 years ago, beyond formal exercises, it was rare to find any image that was not using hiki-te as Iain does. While it wasn't technically legal in sparring in particular schools, I had great success using what I'll call jamming and covering.
It is so refreshing to see/hear someone put forward an opinion that not only makes sense and can be backed up with physical examples, but also agrees with mine. 😎 So many people I know don't train that way, "because you wouldn't pull your hand back like that in a real fight!", and then there are those who do believe it adds power... 😏 I recently opened my own school, and a friend from my original Goju Ryu school came along to be my assistant, even though he's a higher rank, because of this kind of thing that our old instructor told us was wrong and wasn't open to seeing a different opinion from a lower rank... I have found that my attitude of "question everything" doesn't go over too well... 😁
It is hard to find this practical approach to karate here in the USA, any upcoming plans to do any seminars in the USA? I would like to attend one.
It's actually quite easy to find in the states... just 99% of UA-cam warriors label it "fake".
There are two simple reasons: hikite means pulling hand; chinese martial arts use the same Kind of device (chambered hand) in their forms for pulling.
Yes indeed. As a hung gar practitioner i also use this method. Any time the non striking hand is pulling or dropping it is applied as grabbing/trapping or clearing the path. People who say otherwise have just got it wrong 😉
Great video Iain. Thank you for sharing.
Excellent as always .... and love the T-shirt!!
So read the whole sentence ;-)
Hikite is designed to learn power generation . . . in the withdrawing / pulling hand so if you grab something in that hand, you've learned the correct alignment and muscle engagement for a good hard pull. The issue is, most people just pull the hand back w/o understanding about using the back muscles and having the shoulder blade move towards the spine to get max muscle engagement. So in those cases they aren't being taught anything during the fundamental practice.
Loved this Iain, great as always, thankyou
Hi Iain I agree the purpose isn't to generate power but would say a bi product with 'modern' karate is power, causing the target to move towards you increases the speed (power = strength x speed) and while its not the purpose its easy to understand how people have misinterpreted what has been said
Love your audio book on the Martial Map!
Good video.
In the beguinner form for the WuShu style I studied there i a similar movement in a punch.
But we performed the grab.
So for us, the hand to the hip was a grab and a punch with the other hand.
A real eye opener
I agree 100% and really enjoyed this detailed explanation/illustration. Great work!
Thank you Wallace!
I remember one of my first senseis years and years ago told us that hikite was supposed to represent grabbing your opponent.
Then a few years later he had apparently forgotten about it, and was back to insisting that we pull as hard and fast as we could in order to generate power.
Just now something differnent clicked!!!!! The shuto Uke for framing is the opposite of the hikite. if the attacker is crashing into you you frame to maintai guard, if he is fleeing you hikite!!!!
Great explaination Sensei. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. 👍👍
That's perfect! Truly!
Muchas gracias Sensei Iain por compartir tus conocimientos y tus estudios en el karate-Jutsu, de verdad a veces el Bunkai más simple es el más efectivo y probablemente esa era la intención de los antiguos Maestros. Domoarigato Sensei Iain
¡Gracias!
I think this info is really great. Thank you!
i'm only a green belt and this seems more logical to me than it being to generate power, if you are throwing your hip anyway i'm not sure what power it would add.
You should
be proud of how far you've come. You're learning and thinking for yourself: that will take you far in Karate.
Ian I love your videos and think that you are a genius
When you step forward in the obverse punch (same foot stepping forward, same hand punching), the junzuke-oizuke, couldn't the rear leg stepping forward be a shorthand for a kick, or a knee, or a flying knee, a la, Muay Thai, as well?
very good explanation !
Arigado gozaimashita
You are the best ... Since i read bunkai jutsu , my karaté have a meaning as bujutsu
Makes perfect sense. Thanks Iain, very useful content.
I agree with you 100 percent. I think the whole objective of karate was lost somehow when it went from Okinawa to Mainland. However, for the purpose of learning the basics of hip work and body movement, I think hiki te helps a great deal. And by my own experience it helps generate power as well. But yes, the purpose of hiki te in karate is to pull the opponent while you are striking.
Hello Iain,
I get the Idea of pulling limbs out of the way to have a clear shot aswell as locating your target with propriception but could you clarify again why you want some force going to the pulling hand? Why not instead pivot from all the way out such that you get Maximum power in your strike instead of pulling your enemy into your fist?
Thanks for the comment and question. It basically comes down to how tactics often mean we need to sacrifice maximum power i.e. a super-powerful shot that doesn’t connect is of no value. Whilst a HUGE swing will be more powerful than a tight hook, the huge swing could be so grossly telegraphed and slow (comparatively speaking) that it stands a good chance of not connecting. Therefore, the tight hook will do lots of damage whereas the huge swing that does not connect - while theoretically stronger - will do no damage at all.
When this comes to hikite, we use it to clear limbs (because if the strike connects with a limb instead of the jaw it will do no meaningful damage), and to locate the enemy (because if the shot misses, it will do no damage at all). Therefore, we may need some power to clear the limb (the enemy often instinctively tenses when we start moving their arm) and we may need some power to “jolt” the enemy so they have to momentarily adjust which gives both the location (proprioception) and time to land the shot.
Slight aside, but we don’t really “pull the enemy onto the punch”. I know that is oft repeated in the karate world, along with the alleged two cars crashing head-on simile, but it does not really work due to the huge differential in your active mass and acceleration compared with the mass and acceleration you can generate in the enemy through pulling (people are heavy, resist and have inertia). Furthermore, even if the enemy could be pulled forwards in such a way, it would reduce the distance for the strike such that your own rate of acceleration (increase in the rate of speed, not speed) would be reduced, hence the power of the strike would also be reduced. The mass and velocity active induced into enemy does not compensate for this loss. I added a video on this very topic to the app yesterday.
Anyhow, in short, we need sometimes need power in the pulling hand so it can do what it needs to do. In those instances, we can get that power by shifting the pivot point towards the pulling hand and away from the striking hand (how much we shift that pivot depends on the circumstance). It will reduce the power in the striking hand, but the pulling hand will ensure the strike hits. If a strike does not hit, it can’t do anything. Hence, it is a sound tactical trade off.
All the best,
Iain
@@practicalkatabunkai Thank you for taking time to respond. I was unsure about the "jolt" you demonstrated at about 15-16 minutes and your statement that hikite does not pull your enemy into your punches. It seemed Like you were pulling your opponent into your Punch there so I was confused. One other thing that Just came to mind as I am writing this is the applications of age uke and uchi uke(by that I mean ua-cam.com/video/jk9WUqrX1SQ/v-deo.html), when the strike into the elbow Joint is Performed the head Drops Forward and is then Met by the end of the technique. Does this add Power to the Strike or does it only Put the enemy into a better position?
@@thibautklinger5178 I’m pleased that helped. Every situation is different, and combat is chaotic and fluid. So, how much you pull / jolt will vary, but the key is to ensure the maximum power for a punch that is likely to land. On the age-uke / uchi-uke you are primarily disrupting the enemy’s posture to expose the jaw / neck. However, there will be some increase in power there - particularly on the age uke and particularly if they are taller than you - because target will only move in a given amount i.e their chin won’t hit the floor because you struck the elbow, so the chance of smothering the strike is greatly reduced. I hope that helps.
@@practicalkatabunkai alright that answers my questions. Thanks for your time.
very nice its an enlightment for me, thank you and osu from indonesia.
Absolutely bang on sir! ;)
I agree in the importance and use if hikite as you have stated. Your applications and drills are stellar. I however have a slightly different conclusion. Please bare with me as I am not disagreeing with you. My own studies have proven to my mind that it can be also used to generate power. This can be measured using impact devices and demonstrated using physics equations. For me I have seen over and over that many techniques from katas have multiple applications. Sometimes there is a more applicable or what I consider primary application with the secondary usually reserved for a special use scenario. I agree that grasping, sensing and pulling is the primary use of Hikite. You are absolutely correct. I believe that power generation is a secondary, special use, application and the primary application does not mean that this secondary application can not exist. The secondary or special use is as a finishing blow with a clear or cleared shot. To me the emphasis on distance sparing in modern karate has led to the reversal (incorrectly) of the perceived primary purpose of hikite. I am in full agreement with you other than the belief that the primary application does not eliminate the secondary application in specific circumstances. This multiple application opinion is my own but stems from the multiple application teachings of my Shidokan Shorin Ryu instructors including Sensei Iha, Sensei Miyahira and others who’s experience and training coincides with Sensei Funakoshi’s. Thank you for your excellent and applicable video. I appreciate your knowledge.
Lovely stuff.
Thank you Sir
I am new to karate community could someone explain what does hikite mean?
This is a little off topic, but I recall one time you mentioning. That you had a college that did Wing Chun and broke it down with practical applications much like you're doing with karate. Do you happen to have his name? Thanks in advance.
That could have been one of my teachers, Peter Consterdine 9th dan (who has also studied Wing Chun in addition to karate) … or Alan Gibson. Both make good use of Wing Chun within a pragmatic framework.
Great stuff! Very interesting indeed!
So thank you for your video and I heard that u don’t want to debate it but maybe u didn’t Heard this on. I am a practitioner of Boxing and Chinese martial arts and I was at first a bit confused after I saw that hikide is based on 引 this character and for an Chinese martial arts guy this is in it self not pulling it’s actually extending or like if u would stretch a chewing gum . Maybe the interpretation in the Japanese language is totally different (I am not an expert for that ) . For example 引弓 stretching the bow. In CMA it’s used for explaining the tension of the shoulder belt through the hands (arms) and in boxing they of course don’t use the term but one can find it always when they practice full force jabs , crosses or overhands in the guard hand. But anyway I don’t get why it can’t be both : a force generating and a tactical side in one . Regards ( no offense )
I think the reason it can’t be both is one of them makes no sense tactically, scientifically or physically, and it is also contrary to the writings of the past masters who explained its true purpose. Pulling an empty hand to the hip will not increase power, but it will leave you wide open and slow the rate of fire. Gripping the enemy’s arm to open them up, and locating the enemy via the use of proprioception, does work through and is how the method is explained in early karate documents. It is only when karate shifts to being a modern budo, and them emphasis shifts to fighting a fellow karateka at distance, that hand on the hip is “explained” as power generation; a practise that needs no explanation when we consider its active use at close range. In short, one position has lots of evidence and information to support it, whereas the other is baseless. I accept others have differing views on the matter. However, I personally can’t see the logic of the “power generation” position. All the best, Iain
Could it be used as a preparation of an underhook when dealing with a grappler
Its a great set up for an armdrag
There is at least one case where hikite CAN increase the power of a hit. In uraken to the side hikite can (if practiced) increase the power by inducing the back muscles to work in moving the upper arm. So far that is the only one I have found.
Generally speaking during a full contact kumite it is not a very good idea to do a big hikite. So the kata's hikite is for training purpose. Mainly of your back muscles - without practicing hikite you will not be able to launch a long and actually strong punch. The latter is also due to the hikite but in a very subtle way that is not possible to explain in a few words. The best way to understand it is to practice with a wooden stick. Yet again unless this exercise is done correctly this will not be of much use.
As per the video, I would disagree. Pulling an empty hand to the hip is always a bad idea in combat. However, at close-range, the hand is better used actively as opposed to being held in a passive guard. In solo training, it always represents holding something to clear a path for strikes or locate the target. Boxers and other combat athletes can punch just fine without the need to engrain what would be a bad combative habit.
Awesome t-shirt Iain X'D
What is your feeling on the pulling hand being used to control or trapping limbs rather than what you presented?
I’m guessing you’ve not watched the full thing? That idea is also presented in the video: ua-cam.com/video/MlS5Y_-QY04/v-deo.html
Very interesting to me. The final reason why an ancient and successful martial art is not wasting resources in combat. Both hands have their own job.
I 100% agree with you, but how do you see this working in Naha-te kata like Sanchin where the pulling hand is also the striking hand and the other hand/arm remains stationary? If I imagine the stationary arm is holding one of his off and I use the pulling arm to clear his other but then let go to strike wouldn't his arm likely snap back in place as well? Of course there are other scenarios I can imagine but I would love to hear your thoughts.
One hand creating its own path while the other hands is busy elsewhere is common. It’s very hard to react faster that the action you are reacting too. It is possible they can get their arm back in the way as you release to strike, but it’s not likely. This recent clip shows the idea from a fighting perspective (as opposed to a self defence one): instagram.com/p/B1yFpriHP7S/ This video also show the self-protection expression of the idea at the start: instagram.com/p/B2jCUNin0Cz/
Lets be honest, an overhand right beats a reverse punch every day of the week and twice on Tuesday. I see no reason to practice something that I have no understanding of how it's even supposed to work in the first place. I enjoyed your talk, but can you imagine this type of discussion happening at a boxing gym?
Imagine that kind of discussion at a boxing gym? Yeah, but only if you were kicking back and talking about things like historical boxing. Like wondering why the old bare knuckle fighters like Jon L. Sullivan used that lower guard, or why Dempsey liked a vertical-fist punch. It strikes me that a lot of what Abernathy is doing with Karate is like unraveling history...with some big gaps in the record. Modern boxing is straight up science.
The reverse punch is merely a cross or a straight punch from the rear side if you prefer. The overhand punch exists in karate as well. The choice between then is largely based on available targets and relative angles. If boxers were fighting bare knuckled and wearing jackets it would look a lot like karate. Dont forget full contact karate is a thing too.
Great overview! When will you be teaching in Holland? ;-)
Very good!
Hiki-Te is the Okinawan technique for starting their petrol lawnmowers, Works for me every time i cut the grass lol
Brilliant!
Great shirt
Thank God someone that's worked out the real techniques in karate practiced karate with misguided teachers gave up after yellow belt now I'm older but interested again
Most important question : Where did you get your tshirt? I want one lol
A friend made it for me ... I have another with "Is that alright?" on too :-)
Actually if you pull it to hip you break more posture, try hikite on lapel to hip and see what happens
Great treasure I have found (by treasure I mean this video and channel)
@7:02 "it's not a pivot, it's a motor"...
A new turn of phrase being added to my teachings... Love it!
The reason for pulling your non punching hand back is to not spill your drink.
Hikite for power Generation is also not supported biomechanically
Iain, here’s another use for hikite. If you pull back a closed fist against an opponent’s jaw, it is very damaging. Same for other body parts like underarm, ribs, etc.
Peter H - b'jesus man, WTF are you on?
A pulling fist instead of a punching fist. It’s a strike either way when done with force.
Jujitsu waza confirms he is correct but boxers also counter pull the opposite limb... empty handed fighting uses the counter pull 4 many reasons tests on the heavy bag show the counter pull is a small part of the power n the punch but needed 4 a follow-up cool vid
As a judoka I clicked on this with very different expectations and was a little confused as the video progressed. Then I saw them him in his gi with folded sleeves and understood that this was definitely not going to be about any judo hikite HAHAHA
Despite acknowledging the caveat... It is all academic. The 'fight' is always messy and unpredictable.
Absolutely. When we appreciate the mess, we can appreciate the needs to try to impose some order on that chaos. It can be hard to get off a clear shot one we are beyond the pre-emptive stage. Rather than have the non-striking hand passive, it can help clear a path and locate the target.
I allways thought the point was to learn to punch from your hip which is were your hand usually is when wandering the streets.
We definitely need to learn to punch from natural positions; especially when it comes to pre-emption … but an empty hand pulled to the first isn’t such a natural position and won’t develop the skills needed. There are well-documented and very good reasons to have the hand close to your hip in combat (when part of the enemy is in that hand). That hand was never intended to be empty in application through and but people keep coming up with justifications for it. When we understand the actual practical reasons for hikite in kata, we can drop all those justifications.
we were taught chambering was for conditioning and to make forms look snappy. I think the usefulness ends there.
Dear Sensei Abernethy,
I have a question. It's about the forms included in traditional Taekwon-Do. As most ppl know they are based off the heian and pinan kata from Shotokan. but however I have come to believe that General Choi Hong Hi who is the founder of traditional Taekwondo did not even understand the correct applications to those forms when he created the TKD forms. I have seen pretty much every single historical recording and book from Choi Hong Hi about the forms of Tkd and in neither of those he actually explains and shows more practical applications of the form movements expect for the typical blocking and striking applications.
And he also lists the Hikite purpose as power generation. So does that mean traditional Tkd has been created based off a misunderstanding of Karate?
The idea that hikite generates power is found in more recent karate texts too … but it’s flawed tactically, historically and physiologically. As I say in the video, it’s a mistake that originates when the methods of the kata are shifted from close-range to long-range (which they were never intended for). I’ve never done TKD, but it does not surprise me that the faulty idea has spread there too due to the close relationship between the arts.
Well to be fair okinawan karate isn't the only component that influenced Taekwondo. Various forms of continental far eastern martial arts also had a strong impact on it as well.
It's possible that Taekwondo (and possibly even Japanese karate) could benefit more from comparing and looking into styles like traditional Northern Chinese long arm styles and Taekkyeon, considering that they also emphasize long range combat.
@@adenyang4398 actually I do practice Long Fist Kung Fu and it is not a long range fighting style at all. Actually there is no kung fu style where you do not fight in close range. Bc you are always actively trying to control and trap your enemies arms and then execute takedowns or strikes
Nytro Dralyg I agree with what you stated wholeheartedly. In addition, I also would like to apologize using the term "long range fighting", as it can be very misleading.
What I meant by longfist and taekkyeon being "long range" was that while they are very sophisticated close combat arts much like Okinawan karate, they have different approaches and philosophies compared to those of styles like the latter, especially when in comes to footwork/movement/stancework and tactics.
Longfist styles and taekkyeon also include extensive amounts of deflecting, bridging, and grappling techniques that can help open way for kicks, which obviously would help Taekwondo a lot.
@@adenyang4398 yes this is true. As I said I know this, because I am practicing Long Fist/Chang Quan by myself. A funny thing is that I am studying the Long Fist form Tan Tui now which means Springing Legs/Kicks, but yet there isn't actually a single kick in the form. You can look up the form. Everytime you are doing the front kick like movement you are actually making a step, because the opponent has also taken a step backwards in order for example to avoid getting thrown by you. Correction there is a flying front kick in the later parts of the form. So the kicking like movement is actually only some kind of symbolism for a step with the rear leg
Love this fella he reminds me of my sensei. Les Charlesworth. Stop them in their tracks!!
with the due respect, I disagree with you in the sense that one thing does not at all rule out the other. No real karate athlete has ever believed that hikite generates per se more power, but it trains the body , the HIP to move rapidly and effectively. This hip movement can BOTH help to keep and restore balance if pushed in a closed range fight AND-OR to transfer power from your entire back to your shoulder and ultimately to yourvì punch. Why do you have to deny one side when they are part of the same bio dynamics?
YOU WROTE: “with the due respect, I disagree with you”
Goes without saying :-) I’ve never felt disrespected simply because someone disagrees.
YOU WROTE: “No real karate athlete has ever believed that hikite generates per se more power”
I can disprove that absolute claim simply by asking you to look at the comments on these videos (here and on Facebook). Loads do believe it add power in and of itself. Additionally, the concept is put forth in numerous books including those of master level practitioners i.e. Masatoshi Nakayama’s hugely influential “Best Karate” series
YOU WROTE: “but it trains the body , the HIP to move rapidly and effectively.”
It’s also entirely unnecessary. You can train those things without pulling an empty hand to the hip (as boxers, etc do) and avoid the bad habits of leaving oneself wide open, slowing down the rate of fire, sacrificing control of the enemy, etc). I’m 100% behind the tactical use of hikite. The “power generation” idea has little to support it in my view. If there is a good argument for it; I’ve yet to hear it.
YOU WROTE: “Why do you have to deny one side when they are part of the same bio dynamics?”
The body mechanics that most put forth in an attempt to justify an empty hand on the hip in actual application are fundamentally flawed in my view, for the reason stated in the video.
As I also say in the video, I’m not seeking to covert others to my way of thinking. I’m simply sharing my thinking for those who may find it interesting or useful. I therefore hope these clarifications are of value in helping understand where I am coming from; even if you disagree.
All the best,
Iain
I was going to respond to some of these points in the OP but its all been done. As a long time boxing and CMA hung gar practitioner im 100% on board with the video message. There is no case for the off hand at the hip for power. I've always used it for grabbing/trapping/clearing, or in clinch situations for control and posture breaking to set up throws/takedowns.
Hike te =hand that pulls, nuff said.
Either have a part of their body or hit them on the way back.
Either way my offhand is going to be doing SOMETHING. Otherwise you are wasting motion.
The only thing I would say critical about the video is bunkai absolutely works against other Karate fighters. When you do Kumite DO NOT forget the lessons from Bunkai.
I beat a lot of people that showed up to a Kumite thinking it was sport. Nope. It was a fight. It just had rules so it didn't get out of hand & get people hurt.
Finally a real one
Lol, "can't please everyone." That's for damn sure.
Just like I thought karate has trapping hands.
Iian would agree that the modern hokey player uses a version of Hiki-te.
ua-cam.com/video/MlS5Y_-QY04/v-deo.html :-)
Hardly to be disputed...
You'd think ... but there is vocal opposition :-)
@@practicalkatabunkai The vocal opposition should just read Funakoshi's autobiography.
I mean just look at the meaning of hikite in judo and I think the discussion is over.
Excellent, tai chi teacher, right? :-)
Good stuff. Love it. Fully agree with it. It’s ludicrous that Hikite would ever be what the McDojos say it is. Utter non-sense.
Always believed this is what Hikite was, even as it is in Judo to this day.
McDojo 😅😅😅