I very much enjoyed listening to this.. thank you for sharing! I watched the first half yesterday and the 2nd half today while I was working out at the local gym. This is the first time I"ve heard of Cameron Redmond and appreciated getting to know him a little and really liked all that he had to say and will check out his channel. It was very interesting to hear about your missionary experiences and the similarities as well as the differences between your past experiences growing up in the church. That is true what Cameron said about how the critics typically ignore all of the strong points regarding our church's truth claims and the details of church history, especially in regards to Joseph Smith. Or else they just 'hand waive' them away with theories that often don't mesh well together at all. It would be really cool to have the 3 Irishmen on a podcast episode together at some point: you 2 and Robert Boylan. I am a fan of Robert's channel also. Regarding your accents, I love both of them! I've always loved Irish, Scottish, and Welsh accents, and am a fan of all things Celtic 😀- One of my hobbies is both listening to and playing music, and I especially love Irish, Welsh, and Scottish traditional music. I play a lever harp and many of the songs I play are tunes composed by O'Carolan, the very musically talented blind Irish harpist and bard who lived about 300 years ago. One difference I've noticed between the Irish accent in the north and that of the rest of Ireland is the pronunciation of 'th'. The northern Irish normally pronounce the th (both voiced and unvoiced version) as most English speakers do, while the rest of Ireland often pronounces them as 'd' and 't' respectively. I suspect that is an artifact of Gaelic from their ancestors, as Gaelic doesn't have those 'th' sounds while English, Icelandic, and Welsh all do. One of my other goals is to learn both Welsh and Gaelic, and I've learned a bit of both so far, but I also want to learn some older languages like Old English, ancient Greek, and Gothic :) I'm really glad that Ireland is getting a temple also! I too have noticed the softening of the divide between Northern Ireland and the rest of Ireland over the past couple of decades or so. That divide was still a big thing when I was growing up, and even through the end of the last century. Now I never hear of bombings or clashes between the 2 factions. It is sad though that the Irish are gradually leaving their Christian roots, so hopefully, they, along with the rest of Europe, can find a happy medium between being too fixated on tradition vs abandoning it altogether.
Just going off the differences in accents… I’ve met Dubliners who sounded practically American, and then there’s Robert Boylan who has an obvious accent, and then Murph’s accent is much softer than Boylan’s. An Irish expat came into where I work a few days ago, and had a lilting accent, but still different than Murph’s or Boylan’s. I asked him what part of Ireland he was from because I’d heard that every Irish county has its own brogue, and he said, “ha! More like every town!” But then went on to say the American-sounding ones are usually from around Dublin or Belfast, and then said where the accents like Boylan’s are from and the other variations (I forget them all… 😬). But he did also mention that some get to be quite hard and almost Scottish sounding in some parts! Accents are fun. I find it very fun that a relatively geographically-small country has such a wide variety of them, too 😊
59:45 Chicago is very close to Gary, IN (of Michael Jackson and The Music Man fame! These days it’s known as “Scary, Indiana” 😬). Chicago is probably three-ish hours northwest of Indianapolis though. I’ve not heard of Indiana as the “armpit of America,” but that sounds about right 🤭 (though it’s probably mean of me to say such things, having never lived in Indiana…) Aside from Yats restaurant in Indianapolis where you can get a giant plate of glorious Louisiana style étouffé for not much money. Indiana Dunes Nat’l park on Lake Michigan is also one of the most biodiverse parks in America. Blueberries and prickly pear cacti in one small geographic area! That was one thing VP Pence wrangled for the state he formerly governed. Upgraded the dunes to a national park instead of just a national lakeshore. It is really pretty though, if you ever go back! I know many a former Indiana resident who are not sad to be “former” residents though. It’s flat in the Midwest, but Indiana has to be one of the flattest, blandest states of the region, Yats and the Dunes notwithstanding.
I’ve always been interested in LDS theology but I never understood the families being sealed together in heaven concept. It’s my understanding that all Christians believe that families are reunited in heaven. I was taught that as a Roman Catholic. In fact I’m old enough to have attended dozens of funerals. They all talk about being reunited with their loved ones.
@Zeett09 I heard an interview with a formerly Amish woman whose whole family converted to LDS say that they were taught you won’t see your family in heaven. She didn’t elaborate on how they came to that doctrinal conclusion, but I understand there are varied beliefs across Christianity because the Bible isn’t clear one way or the other. Many may believe that they will be with their families, but there is nothing in the Bible that explicitly clarifies such a belief. Greek Orthodox (and I’m pretty sure other Eastern Orthodox traditions, but I’m not certain) believe in eternal marriage though. But aside from them as far as I know, pretty much every other Christian faith has “til death do you part” as part of the marriage vows 🤷♀️ But again, individuals may or may not actually believe that part might also apply after death, too. As for me, I believe covenantal sealings are of great importance, and we don’t quite understand it fully. But one lecture (from Methodist biblical scholar Margaret Barker to a group of orthodox Christians) mentioned extra-biblical texts about Adam and Eve that talked about “the everlasting covenant/covenant of peace” (also equated with the Hebrew word “hesed”) being the “net that holds together all of creation.” Barker didn’t talk about “forever families” or sealings at all, but it made me think of those things! It’s called something like “the biblical vision of creation” on an orthodox UA-cam channel if you wanted to check it out 😊
@ I can only speak for the Catholic theology of reuniting with your spouse after death. Like I said I’ve been to numerous Catholic funerals where families are told over the pulpit by the priest of the dead person being now reunited in heaven with past already passed loved ones. I’m surprised the Amish theology does not believe that. As far as the term “until death do us part” at weddings, it’s understood that the term is only for our earthly existence. Once both have passed they are then reunited in heaven. Part of the draw of religion is addressing what happens after death. It would be ridiculous to have a faith that did not have a theology of a grand reunion in heaven.
@Zeett09 so I think there’s probably something somewhere in the Roman Catholic catechism that teaches that families will be reunited after death if it’s being taught by priests (and all the implications that come with that), which doesn’t surprise me if Greek Orthodox still maintain a belief in eternal marriage (they were once all part of the same Catholic Church, after all!). I have done general searches and asked questions of those in Protestant traditions about their beliefs, marriage vows, and doctrinal understanding, and mostly I’ve seen stuff that says that the Bible isn’t clear about it (same with beliefs about when souls go to heaven or hell either: right after death, or not until Judgment Day?! and then there’s that parable in Luke about the rich man in prison or whatever the wording is and Lazarus the beggar man in “Abraham’s Bosom,” which is not stated to be the same as heaven or hell, but I digress). I’ve come to find that most individuals with whom I’ve discussed this believe that they will be with their families, but “official” doctrinal/theological sources I’ve looked into from varying faiths just kind of leave it open because it’s not explicitly spelled out one way or the other in the Bible. 🤷♀️
Polygamy is not a "micro doctrine" or insignificant to the bigger picture when like me you get divorced and the church refuses to cancel your sealing so you are forced into polygamy to be sealed to your second spouse as a man (a woman does not have that option); when you are a single woman told your destiny for the next life and best hope is to become a polygamous wife in someone else's marriage. When you are a woman and your husband you are sealed to dies and you are facing a lifetime without an LDS marriage or having to seriously consider cancelling that sealing in order to marry the new love of your life in the Temple. It isn't a micro doctrine when you read doctrine and covenants 132 straight through from beginning to end. The critics of the Church focused on polygamy really aren't being unreasonable. It's the massive elephant in almost every LDS doctrinal and cultural room. But as a public critic of the church leadership and culture I applaud cameras powerful condemnation of leaders and culture that do not reflect Christ and harm and alienate people and drive them out of the church rather than making it safe for them to stay. We need a lot more active members to be willing to speak up against this as it will destroy the church internationally over the next few years, a process that is already well underway for exactly those reasons. I look forward to Cameron's appearance on Mormon Stories in a few years. He is starting to wake up.
I have a rule about commenting on experiences and testimonies. That's one of my lines that I endeavor not to cross, so my comments will be sparse, if there's really any at all. 24:30 You're talking about my experience here a bit, so I figured I should offer up something. I had experiences in the church that I attributed to feeling the Spirit. However, I had similar feelings when I took Moroni's promise to test the Jehovah's Witnesses. That said, I don't think it's fair or accurate to impose those experiences on everyone in or who has left the church. 41:00 It's interesting to me how those who are in the church compare to those who are out when it comes to this aphorism about the church or the gospel being perfect but not the people. For me, I wouldn't say any are perfect, but the scales are balanced the other way. 44:30 The BoM, D&C, and PoGP are all silent on LGBTQ issues. The church is creating (or enabling) the social issues that impact gay members. The Jacob Hansens of the world don't get their hate from the doctrine, they get it from the church. So... vibes. 1:15:30 I framed the issue in the same way. The problem is that Masonry has nothing to do with the Temple of Solomon. If it did, the criticism would be moot. 1:25:00 Open invitation: I would be happy to discuss how looking at the bigger picture paints a very different picture for me. I'd be glad to help with developing that mutual understanding 😊 Overall, I found it interesting how similar my Mormon experience was to the guest's. A lot of just kinda vibing with the discussion.
Your comment about having experiences you attributed to the Spirit even when investigating the JWs intrigued me. My mom (converted from general Protestant Christianity at 19) also looked into the JWs for a bit, I never asked her why. She was a philosophy major at first (switched to music later, but now I know why she has Plato and Aristotle on her bookshelves! I only recently discovered she was a philosophy major first), so perhaps she was just curious and generally seeking. I don’t know if she ever “felt” anything concerning their truth claims, but I do know that she had quite big experiences when she was considering baptism into the LDS faith (involving like a disembodied voice answering her questions, but also not a voice she is sure was _actually_ audible for others who came by shortly afterward; and some other things that were more “feelings-like” but more than _just_ feelings, if that makes sense?) Anyway, I’ve never asked her for details about that investigation of hers, but she did also tell me she considered leaving the church briefly a few years ago. Not for any historical issues or truth claims or anything like that (she doesn’t seem at all bothered by the idea that the BoM might not be historical at all; that’s not the important part for her), but she’s a very spiritually open person and was feeling like she had perhaps gotten all there is to get out of the church. Anyway, she said what stopped her was a thought about her patriarchal blessing. She thought, “oh, what about that?” And felt an answer of “you’ll leave that, too,” and then she thought, “oh! I’d like to keep that!” So she has stayed. 🤷♀️ Also I guess I just feel kind of sad for you that you haven’t had any experiences that are more “solid” than feelings (like no dreams that were more than dreams?! maybe that’s not a very common thing; my family might be weird - not that I have “prophetic” dreams all the time, but I’ve had some, and other family members have similar gifts) at least as far as you perceived them. Kind of reminds me of a coworker of mine who was born Catholic and claims he’s agnostic because he’s a scientist (actually he’s a bit of a polymath) and he says a good scientist should be agnostic, buuuuuut he’s effectively an atheist. He does enjoy studying religion, though, but he doesn’t believe in like *anything* spiritual or otherwise unverifiable (except he does think aliens are a probable reality 😂). He’s a wonderful human though! And you seem to be a very wonderful and decent former-member and human as well. I appreciate it!
Alyssa Grenfell who left the Mormon church in Utah gives full detail on the freemason cult on her channel... including the ridiculous gear they wear in Temples and freemason handshakes.
@ sure, but that doesn’t mean Mormons are Christians. The Mormon god and Mormon Jesus are fundamentally different and false. Hence, Mormons are not Christian.
I very much enjoyed listening to this.. thank you for sharing!
I watched the first half yesterday and the 2nd half today while I was working out at the local gym.
This is the first time I"ve heard of Cameron Redmond and appreciated getting to know him a little and really liked all that he had to say and will check out his channel.
It was very interesting to hear about your missionary experiences and the similarities as well as the differences between your past experiences growing up in the church. That is true what Cameron said about how the critics typically ignore all of the strong points regarding our church's truth claims and the details of church history, especially in regards to Joseph Smith. Or else they just 'hand waive' them away with theories that often don't mesh well together at all.
It would be really cool to have the 3 Irishmen on a podcast episode together at some point: you 2 and Robert Boylan. I am a fan of Robert's channel also.
Regarding your accents, I love both of them! I've always loved Irish, Scottish, and Welsh accents, and am a fan of all things Celtic 😀- One of my hobbies is both listening to and playing music, and I especially love Irish, Welsh, and Scottish traditional music. I play a lever harp and many of the songs I play are tunes composed by O'Carolan, the very musically talented blind Irish harpist and bard who lived about 300 years ago.
One difference I've noticed between the Irish accent in the north and that of the rest of Ireland is the pronunciation of 'th'. The northern Irish normally pronounce the th (both voiced and unvoiced version) as most English speakers do, while the rest of Ireland often pronounces them as 'd' and 't' respectively. I suspect that is an artifact of Gaelic from their ancestors, as Gaelic doesn't have those 'th' sounds while English, Icelandic, and Welsh all do. One of my other goals is to learn both Welsh and Gaelic, and I've learned a bit of both so far, but I also want to learn some older languages like Old English, ancient Greek, and Gothic :)
I'm really glad that Ireland is getting a temple also!
I too have noticed the softening of the divide between Northern Ireland and the rest of Ireland over the past couple of decades or so. That divide was still a big thing when I was growing up, and even through the end of the last century. Now I never hear of bombings or clashes between the 2 factions. It is sad though that the Irish are gradually leaving their Christian roots, so hopefully, they, along with the rest of Europe, can find a happy medium between being too fixated on tradition vs abandoning it altogether.
Just going off the differences in accents… I’ve met Dubliners who sounded practically American, and then there’s Robert Boylan who has an obvious accent, and then Murph’s accent is much softer than Boylan’s. An Irish expat came into where I work a few days ago, and had a lilting accent, but still different than Murph’s or Boylan’s. I asked him what part of Ireland he was from because I’d heard that every Irish county has its own brogue, and he said, “ha! More like every town!” But then went on to say the American-sounding ones are usually from around Dublin or Belfast, and then said where the accents like Boylan’s are from and the other variations (I forget them all… 😬). But he did also mention that some get to be quite hard and almost Scottish sounding in some parts! Accents are fun. I find it very fun that a relatively geographically-small country has such a wide variety of them, too 😊
3:21 The triskele of Irish apologists, yeah!
59:45 Chicago is very close to Gary, IN (of Michael Jackson and The Music Man fame! These days it’s known as “Scary, Indiana” 😬). Chicago is probably three-ish hours northwest of Indianapolis though. I’ve not heard of Indiana as the “armpit of America,” but that sounds about right 🤭 (though it’s probably mean of me to say such things, having never lived in Indiana…) Aside from Yats restaurant in Indianapolis where you can get a giant plate of glorious Louisiana style étouffé for not much money. Indiana Dunes Nat’l park on Lake Michigan is also one of the most biodiverse parks in America. Blueberries and prickly pear cacti in one small geographic area! That was one thing VP Pence wrangled for the state he formerly governed. Upgraded the dunes to a national park instead of just a national lakeshore. It is really pretty though, if you ever go back!
I know many a former Indiana resident who are not sad to be “former” residents though. It’s flat in the Midwest, but Indiana has to be one of the flattest, blandest states of the region, Yats and the Dunes notwithstanding.
Question. Can an elderly gay married couple that obeys the law of chastity (they are old) be welcomed into the temple?
Really value the continuum of desiring as God desires. That doctrine and principle couldn't be more vast and far reaching.
I’ve always been interested in LDS theology but I never understood the families being sealed together in heaven concept. It’s my understanding that all Christians believe that families are reunited in heaven. I was taught that as a Roman Catholic. In fact I’m old enough to have attended dozens of funerals. They all talk about being reunited with their loved ones.
Sealing is formalized in our marriage ceremonies, for all eternity, not till death do us part
@ Catholics believe you will be reunited with your marriage partner and loved ones as well. It’s a comforting theology no doubt.
@Zeett09 I heard an interview with a formerly Amish woman whose whole family converted to LDS say that they were taught you won’t see your family in heaven. She didn’t elaborate on how they came to that doctrinal conclusion, but I understand there are varied beliefs across Christianity because the Bible isn’t clear one way or the other. Many may believe that they will be with their families, but there is nothing in the Bible that explicitly clarifies such a belief.
Greek Orthodox (and I’m pretty sure other Eastern Orthodox traditions, but I’m not certain) believe in eternal marriage though. But aside from them as far as I know, pretty much every other Christian faith has “til death do you part” as part of the marriage vows 🤷♀️ But again, individuals may or may not actually believe that part might also apply after death, too.
As for me, I believe covenantal sealings are of great importance, and we don’t quite understand it fully. But one lecture (from Methodist biblical scholar Margaret Barker to a group of orthodox Christians) mentioned extra-biblical texts about Adam and Eve that talked about “the everlasting covenant/covenant of peace” (also equated with the Hebrew word “hesed”) being the “net that holds together all of creation.” Barker didn’t talk about “forever families” or sealings at all, but it made me think of those things! It’s called something like “the biblical vision of creation” on an orthodox UA-cam channel if you wanted to check it out 😊
@ I can only speak for the Catholic theology of reuniting with your spouse after death. Like I said I’ve been to numerous Catholic funerals where families are told over the pulpit by the priest of the dead person being now reunited in heaven with past already passed loved ones. I’m surprised the Amish theology does not believe that. As far as the term “until death do us part” at weddings, it’s understood that the term is only for our earthly existence. Once both have passed they are then reunited in heaven. Part of the draw of religion is addressing what happens after death. It would be ridiculous to have a faith that did not have a theology of a grand reunion in heaven.
@Zeett09 so I think there’s probably something somewhere in the Roman Catholic catechism that teaches that families will be reunited after death if it’s being taught by priests (and all the implications that come with that), which doesn’t surprise me if Greek Orthodox still maintain a belief in eternal marriage (they were once all part of the same Catholic Church, after all!).
I have done general searches and asked questions of those in Protestant traditions about their beliefs, marriage vows, and doctrinal understanding, and mostly I’ve seen stuff that says that the Bible isn’t clear about it (same with beliefs about when souls go to heaven or hell either: right after death, or not until Judgment Day?! and then there’s that parable in Luke about the rich man in prison or whatever the wording is and Lazarus the beggar man in “Abraham’s Bosom,” which is not stated to be the same as heaven or hell, but I digress).
I’ve come to find that most individuals with whom I’ve discussed this believe that they will be with their families, but “official” doctrinal/theological sources I’ve looked into from varying faiths just kind of leave it open because it’s not explicitly spelled out one way or the other in the Bible. 🤷♀️
Polygamy is not a "micro doctrine" or insignificant to the bigger picture when like me you get divorced and the church refuses to cancel your sealing so you are forced into polygamy to be sealed to your second spouse as a man (a woman does not have that option); when you are a single woman told your destiny for the next life and best hope is to become a polygamous wife in someone else's marriage. When you are a woman and your husband you are sealed to dies and you are facing a lifetime without an LDS marriage or having to seriously consider cancelling that sealing in order to marry the new love of your life in the Temple. It isn't a micro doctrine when you read doctrine and covenants 132 straight through from beginning to end. The critics of the Church focused on polygamy really aren't being unreasonable. It's the massive elephant in almost every LDS doctrinal and cultural room.
But as a public critic of the church leadership and culture I applaud cameras powerful condemnation of leaders and culture that do not reflect Christ and harm and alienate people and drive them out of the church rather than making it safe for them to stay. We need a lot more active members to be willing to speak up against this as it will destroy the church internationally over the next few years, a process that is already well underway for exactly those reasons.
I look forward to Cameron's appearance on Mormon Stories in a few years. He is starting to wake up.
1:13:10 Yes I too believed there was a good answer but I’ve come to find is that is true it’s just not always faith affirming.
I have a rule about commenting on experiences and testimonies. That's one of my lines that I endeavor not to cross, so my comments will be sparse, if there's really any at all.
24:30 You're talking about my experience here a bit, so I figured I should offer up something. I had experiences in the church that I attributed to feeling the Spirit. However, I had similar feelings when I took Moroni's promise to test the Jehovah's Witnesses. That said, I don't think it's fair or accurate to impose those experiences on everyone in or who has left the church.
41:00 It's interesting to me how those who are in the church compare to those who are out when it comes to this aphorism about the church or the gospel being perfect but not the people. For me, I wouldn't say any are perfect, but the scales are balanced the other way.
44:30 The BoM, D&C, and PoGP are all silent on LGBTQ issues. The church is creating (or enabling) the social issues that impact gay members. The Jacob Hansens of the world don't get their hate from the doctrine, they get it from the church. So... vibes.
1:15:30 I framed the issue in the same way. The problem is that Masonry has nothing to do with the Temple of Solomon. If it did, the criticism would be moot.
1:25:00 Open invitation: I would be happy to discuss how looking at the bigger picture paints a very different picture for me. I'd be glad to help with developing that mutual understanding 😊
Overall, I found it interesting how similar my Mormon experience was to the guest's. A lot of just kinda vibing with the discussion.
Your comment about having experiences
you attributed to the Spirit even when investigating the JWs intrigued me. My mom (converted from general Protestant Christianity at 19) also looked into the JWs for a bit, I never asked her why. She was a philosophy major at first (switched to music later, but now I know why she has Plato and Aristotle on her bookshelves! I only recently discovered she was a philosophy major first), so perhaps she was just curious and generally seeking. I don’t know if she ever “felt” anything concerning their truth claims, but I do know that she had quite big experiences when she was considering baptism into the LDS faith (involving like a disembodied voice answering her questions, but also not a voice she is sure was _actually_ audible for others who came by shortly afterward; and some other things that were more “feelings-like” but more than _just_ feelings, if that makes sense?)
Anyway, I’ve never asked her for details about that investigation of hers, but she did also tell me she considered leaving the church briefly a few years ago. Not for any historical issues or truth claims or anything like that (she doesn’t seem at all bothered by the idea that the BoM might not be historical at all; that’s not the important part for her), but she’s a very spiritually open person and was feeling like she had perhaps gotten all there is to get out of the church.
Anyway, she said what stopped her was a thought about her patriarchal blessing. She thought, “oh, what about that?” And felt an answer of “you’ll leave that, too,” and then she thought, “oh! I’d like to keep that!” So she has stayed. 🤷♀️
Also I guess I just feel kind of sad for you that you haven’t had any experiences that are more “solid” than feelings (like no dreams that were more than dreams?! maybe that’s not a very common thing; my family might be weird - not that I have “prophetic” dreams all the time, but I’ve had some, and other family members have similar gifts) at least as far as you perceived them. Kind of reminds me of a coworker of mine who was born Catholic and claims he’s agnostic because he’s a scientist (actually he’s a bit of a polymath) and he says a good scientist should be agnostic, buuuuuut he’s effectively an atheist. He does enjoy studying religion, though, but he doesn’t believe in like *anything* spiritual or otherwise unverifiable (except he does think aliens are a probable reality 😂).
He’s a wonderful human though! And you seem to be a very wonderful and decent former-member and human as well. I appreciate it!
Give these Cult members a Thumbs down.
Alyssa Grenfell who left the Mormon church in Utah gives full detail on the freemason cult on her channel... including the ridiculous gear they wear in Temples and freemason handshakes.
Two future Christians ❤ 🙏
The Bible refers to the disciples of Christ as "Saints" in over 100 verses.
@ sure, but that doesn’t mean Mormons are Christians. The Mormon god and Mormon Jesus are fundamentally different and false. Hence, Mormons are not Christian.
I don’t know what you get out of trolling this channel. Like at least engage with the content. Do you even watch the videos?
@ not trolling. Sharing awareness of the real Jesus! ❤️ Would you like to know Him? ❤️
@mikespage0123 yes tell me what I must do to be saved by the real Jesus?
The Church is not true. It’s a tough thing to realise as when you do, your whole world will fall apart. But then you are free.
There is no restoration.