His philosophy on why the colors don't show up good , is because the calendar date changed. I'm an old school printer and that's the way I describe my machines some days, because it's today not yesterday and it's just not gonna run right. Love it
Absolutely stunning results!!! Mark, you Keith and your crew there at the Armory are true gunsmithing craftsmen. The attention to detail and dedication to producing superior results and products is quite clear in the examples shown in your videos. Thank you for another great episode!
Super neat process. The result from that chemical reaction when the carbon adheres to the steel, is one of the very best looking features in firearms. Great video Mark.
Hi Mark! What a great video, and very informative. I've always wondered what made Winchester's, Colt's and other manufacturers case coloring different. Steven's single shots seem to be the most different from the other's manufacturers with their tiger like coloring. In my opionon, and the work I have seen up close, you folks are the best in duplicating color's of the past. Thank you for putting out great video's! Watched it twice!😁
Thank you very much. I've always been fascinated by the Stevens case colors. They certainly had a twist on the process that created those tiger stripes. Some of the earliest Colt SAA's had a similar look, although very few survive today with original colors. I'd love to figure out how they did it and reproduce it.
You guys did color case hardening for my Winchester 73 receiver and small parts, about a year ago, it looks absolutely stunning and the price was more than reasonable. Never had a chance to really thank you for the great job so I'll do it here :)
Thanks again Mark for an extremely informative video on the gun smithing work you and your associates perform. Very clever on the dump process the young man used. Back in the late 1970's I experimented with case hardening on a .22 Winchester project doing the hammers and triggers. Using bone meal and leather on advise from the Dixie Gun Works catalog I did get good hardening, but not real bright colors. As always, your videos are a welcome sight for us all. Best regards, Karl
Thanks Karl! As you found, getting the parts to case harden is a relatively straight forward process. Getting good colors takes quite a bit of fine tuning.
Color case hardening is an art that not even the artist can predict. I wish modern firearms were still artistically crafted. I miss the old companies too...all that remains with them are trademarks... same thing with great old American knife manufacturers.
We color case harden for a few smaller modern manufacturers, like the Big Horn Armory receivers in this video. Unfortunately, guns are made cheaply and in bulk on assembly lines by the larger manufacturers and craftsmanship is largely a thing of the past.
Thanks for another great video Mark. I'm surprised how low the temperature is for this process. I figured it would be performed at 1400 or so degrees to be above the recrystallization temperature of the steel. Especially for the annealing step. Learning new tricks that I can share with my engineering students.
I intentionally didn't reveal the temperature we use for case color hardening, only for the annealing step. Sorry, but there are several details in our recipe that we consider proprietary.
@@thecinnabar8442 I fully understand keeping your cards close to the vest. I know enough about metallurgy to be dangerous. Would love to talk shop sometime if you come to an OGCA meeting. Hated to miss this weekend with WACA in town. Too many hobbies!
Very Interesting How The Process Is Done Mark What Type Bone Material Do You Use Does Different Animal Bone Create Different Colors or Does it Not Make a Difference 😊
The fact that it doesn't always come out right, or at all, just proves the point that it is, in part, a black art. Some part of the sacrifice didn't go as well as it might, or you had a stain (probably pizza) on your black cape, or you fumbled over the words of your incantation. But goodness, what color on that 95! Gorgeous. What interests me is 'how thick is that hardened section'? Is it measured in mils, millimeters. or what? And that tiny little faction of an inch will wear a long, long time? Amazing.
The hardened layer is typically only around .005" deep. It wears very well. Hammers and sears were hardened with this method in vintage firearms. The hardened skins on them will still be intact after thousands of cycles and firings.
I bought a Winchester model 1894 circa 1904, chambered in 25-35 Winchester with the close coupled set triggers. I should probably contact you about doing case colours for this rifle.
A most interesting episode, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Now, how about nickle plating? Do you do that? I have a rifle and a revolver that are in need of re-plating.
I REALLY DID ENJOY this episode! This is a fascinating subject that to be honest, I never really thought about how it was done. And those receivers are drop dead gorgeous! If I had the money, I would send you my Marlin to do. But, kids come before gun athstetics. so maybe after they are grown and on their own. I have also never heard of "bone charcoal. I'm going to look into that, just out of curiosity. I don't think I would ever try doing that on my own. Thank you for giving us a peek at how it is done. And NO ONE would blame you for not giving away your trade secrets. But somebody should write them down, and put those instructions in a safe, with very specific instructions that the information not be shared. It would be a shame for all that work to "go to the grave" again.
All of the information on the process is readily available today. There are, however, differences in the exact combinations that different operators use to achieve desired results. We consider our exact formula to be proprietary.
What would you say the penetration depth of color is? The reason I’m asking, is I got an old Parker S/S, that I bought at a sale, it has very little of the color left on it. It was in bad shape whenI got it, and in trying to clean it, I noticed some was rubbing off, and I truthfully was being gentle, I didn’t want to lose any that was left, so I just oiled it, and gently rubbed it down. It is what it is, it still exists, and looks a lot better than when I got it. Just eyeballing, I would guess 15% color left.
STUNNING results. I am trying to figure out if color like this only comes from harder steel or whatever steel is used in firearms. I am attempting to make my own Cap Lock rife from scratch and I am trying to figure out what metal to use. I don't know if i want to case harden mild steel or if I want to use a higher carbon steel. I want this rifle to last obviously.
Most color case hardening is, and was done in the past, with mild steel. However, we are having good result with colors in some of the lower carbon through-hardening steels, like 4140
Just like the art of damascus barrels. They make some of the most gorgeous firearms. If you find a nice original is there anyway to test the coating. I would be leaning toward the violin type coating
Absolutely! But what about the hundreds of thousands (or maybe millions) of vintage firearms that have been poorly refinished or badly abused and no longer have their original finish? There are a vast number of firearms that are no longer wearing their original finish and deserve a better fate.
Do these parts need to be braced in any way to prevent warping while heated? I thought I had heard that the kilns will throw off tolerances/warp bolt channels if you don’t keep them rigidly in place with some type of jig
I've used blocking in the past, but we don't feel it's necessary. We do get a little movement at times, but no more or less if blocking is used. If it moves a little, we gently heat it and move it back. Remember, the steel is still malleable under the thin hardened surface and can still be moved without damage.
You forgot to mention the camel urine. That's why most places that CC back east are near a zoo. Perhaps your formula uses bison urine? I've gotten decent results with LC Smith parts. Those are basically 1020. Would you give a hint if there are major temp differences between manufacturers ? I've been having a hard time finding the wood charcoal. I now one guy that has been using coconut charcoal. Can you share any sources for pre-ground wood char?
Yes, in most instances. Carbon steels can be case color hardened. Stainless steels an MIM steels can't. There are some very thin parts that we don't color case harden because they are more prone to warpage and usually won't take very good colors. Give us a call if you have questions. www.wyomingarmory.com/
Sir i have a question.....what do you do with a sintered( i think i spelled that right) metal gun???? i just redone a Winchester model 94 which had this and when i started it i thought i had really messed up ...couldn't get bluing to take at all...i ended up doing a rust blue on it and i'm happy with the results but i was wondering if there is another method to doing this...can the receiver on these be color case hardened or what would be the best option for those types of metals???...thank you for any advice you might give...i don't have the equipment as you do to do a case hardening but i would like to try if i ever could as i have a couple of single shot shotgun receivers that are case hardened...otherwise i will be shipping it to you....
@@thecinnabar8442 thank you...i didn't know if it could or not but thought it was worth asking....it took me awhile to figure out this by trial and error..lol..i'm still learning and kicking myself for not starting this gunsmithing hobby at a younger age as fine old guns have always been my joy to own and repair...
Have you tried annealing in an inert atmosphere like nitrogen, or using a protective flux on the metal? It might cut down the time it takes to prep for the next step if the metal doesn’t get so much scale on it when heated.
Actually, scale probably isn't the right word for it. It's just a fine dusting of what I believe is the carbon that's migrated out of the steel during the annealing process. It comes off in seconds with a fine glass bead blast and thankfully doesn't visibly effect the surface finish.
We appreciate the amazing work you've done for us over the years! We have many very happy customers who have purchased our color case hardened guns!
Thanks! We're proud to have a part in producing those great Big Horn Armory guns!
His philosophy on why the colors don't show up good , is because the calendar date changed. I'm an old school printer and that's the way I describe my machines some days, because it's today not yesterday and it's just not gonna run right. Love it
Absolutely stunning results!!!
Mark, you Keith and your crew there at the Armory are true gunsmithing craftsmen. The attention to detail and dedication to producing superior results and products is quite clear in the examples shown in your videos. Thank you for another great episode!
Thank you very much for the compliments.
I have been looking forward to this video.
Super neat process. The result from that chemical reaction when the carbon adheres to the steel, is one of the very best looking features in firearms.
Great video Mark.
I agree! There's just something about the beautiful finishes of yesteryear.
That was amazing. I learned a lot. It is truly a process. You guys get excellent results.
Thanks! As you can probably tell, we're pretty darn proud of the work we're doing here.
Hi Mark! What a great video, and very informative. I've always wondered what made Winchester's, Colt's and other manufacturers case coloring different. Steven's single shots seem to be the most different from the other's manufacturers with their tiger like coloring. In my opionon, and the work I have seen up close, you folks are the best in duplicating color's of the past. Thank you for putting out great video's! Watched it twice!😁
Thank you very much. I've always been fascinated by the Stevens case colors. They certainly had a twist on the process that created those tiger stripes. Some of the earliest Colt SAA's had a similar look, although very few survive today with original colors. I'd love to figure out how they did it and reproduce it.
Another great episode.
Highly interesting subject.
Thanks very much for sharing.
You're very welcome Rob! Glad you enjoyed it
@@thecinnabar8442 I love the fact that fella took the time to perfect the old ways the hard way.
I understand the obsession and appreciate it.
You guys did color case hardening for my Winchester 73 receiver and small parts, about a year ago, it looks absolutely stunning and the price was more than reasonable. Never had a chance to really thank you for the great job so I'll do it here :)
You're very welcome! Glad to hear from a happy customer.
thank you for a fascinatng episode of a dying art.
You're very welcome! Thanks for watching.
Thanks again Mark for an extremely informative video on the gun smithing work you and your associates perform. Very clever on the dump process the young man used. Back in the late 1970's I experimented with case hardening on a .22 Winchester project doing the hammers and triggers. Using bone meal and leather on advise from the Dixie Gun Works catalog I did get good hardening, but not real bright colors. As always, your videos are a welcome sight for us all. Best regards, Karl
Thanks Karl! As you found, getting the parts to case harden is a relatively straight forward process. Getting good colors takes quite a bit of fine tuning.
Great video. Thank you.
Color case hardening is an art that not even the artist can predict. I wish modern firearms were still artistically crafted. I miss the old companies too...all that remains with them are trademarks... same thing with great old American knife manufacturers.
We color case harden for a few smaller modern manufacturers, like the Big Horn Armory receivers in this video. Unfortunately, guns are made cheaply and in bulk on assembly lines by the larger manufacturers and craftsmanship is largely a thing of the past.
@@thecinnabar8442. Si señor, gran verdad, su reflexión sobre como se fabrican las armas hoy...mucho plástico y poco acero.
Thank you for the very interesting video it’s very fascinating how that color case hardening is done.
You're very welcome, Flint!
Beautiful work mark and crew, thank you so much for sharing.
Thanks a bunch, Rick!
Looking good!
That's a really cool process, thanks for giving us a peek!
You're very welcome, Jeff!
Beautiful work!
Thanks a bunch!
@@thecinnabar8442 Your very welcome!
Thanks for another great video Mark. I'm surprised how low the temperature is for this process. I figured it would be performed at 1400 or so degrees to be above the recrystallization temperature of the steel. Especially for the annealing step. Learning new tricks that I can share with my engineering students.
I intentionally didn't reveal the temperature we use for case color hardening, only for the annealing step. Sorry, but there are several details in our recipe that we consider proprietary.
@@thecinnabar8442 I fully understand keeping your cards close to the vest. I know enough about metallurgy to be dangerous. Would love to talk shop sometime if you come to an OGCA meeting. Hated to miss this weekend with WACA in town. Too many hobbies!
Tremendo vídeo! Felicitaciones!! Aclaró mucho mis dudas.
Thank you for showing us QUALITY smith work
You're very welcome! Thanks for watching
Very Interesting How The Process Is Done Mark What Type Bone Material Do You Use Does Different Animal Bone Create Different Colors or Does it Not Make a Difference 😊
The only commercially available bone charcoal we know about is made from cattle.
Beautiful work!👍🏽😊❤️🇺🇸
Thanks, Jeffry!!
The fact that it doesn't always come out right, or at all, just proves the point that it is, in part, a black art. Some part of the sacrifice didn't go as well as it might, or you had a stain (probably pizza) on your black cape, or you fumbled over the words of your incantation. But goodness, what color on that 95! Gorgeous. What interests me is 'how thick is that hardened section'? Is it measured in mils, millimeters. or what? And that tiny little faction of an inch will wear a long, long time? Amazing.
The hardened layer is typically only around .005" deep. It wears very well. Hammers and sears were hardened with this method in vintage firearms. The hardened skins on them will still be intact after thousands of cycles and firings.
Very good show
Thanks Errol!
Thank you Mark.
You're more than welcome, Henry!
I bought a Winchester model 1894 circa 1904, chambered in 25-35 Winchester with the close coupled set triggers. I should probably contact you about doing case colours for this rifle.
We'd be happy to talk to you about it. www.wyomingarmory.com/
A most interesting episode, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Now, how about nickle plating? Do you do that? I have a rifle and a revolver that are in need of re-plating.
I'm sorry but we don't offer nickle plating.
I REALLY DID ENJOY this episode! This is a fascinating subject that to be honest, I never really thought about how it was done. And those receivers are drop dead gorgeous! If I had the money, I would send you my Marlin to do. But, kids come before gun athstetics. so maybe after they are grown and on their own. I have also never heard of "bone charcoal. I'm going to look into that, just out of curiosity. I don't think I would ever try doing that on my own. Thank you for giving us a peek at how it is done. And NO ONE would blame you for not giving away your trade secrets. But somebody should write them down, and put those instructions in a safe, with very specific instructions that the information not be shared. It would be a shame for all that work to "go to the grave" again.
All of the information on the process is readily available today. There are, however, differences in the exact combinations that different operators use to achieve desired results. We consider our exact formula to be proprietary.
Good stuff, I enjoyed!!
Thanks so much for watching!
What would you say the penetration depth of color is? The reason I’m asking, is I got an old Parker S/S, that I bought at a sale, it has very little of the color left on it. It was in bad shape whenI got it, and in trying to clean it, I noticed some was rubbing off, and I truthfully was being gentle, I didn’t want to lose any that was left, so I just oiled it, and gently rubbed it down. It is what it is, it still exists, and looks a lot better than when I got it. Just eyeballing, I would guess 15% color left.
Great video!
Thanks! Glad you liked it Joe!
STUNNING results. I am trying to figure out if color like this only comes from harder steel or whatever steel is used in firearms. I am attempting to make my own Cap Lock rife from scratch and I am trying to figure out what metal to use. I don't know if i want to case harden mild steel or if I want to use a higher carbon steel. I want this rifle to last obviously.
Most color case hardening is, and was done in the past, with mild steel. However, we are having good result with colors in some of the lower carbon through-hardening steels, like 4140
@@thecinnabar8442 Thank you for the reply, I might stick with trying mild steel, after all it will be easy to work with obviously, Thanks again!
Just like the art of damascus barrels. They make some of the most gorgeous firearms. If you find a nice original is there anyway to test the coating. I would be leaning toward the violin type coating
Gotta love the look of case colors and damascus.
At 16:05 I've used a crescent hammer like that a time or two myself.
Haven't we all? 😁
I learned one thing the metal isn't as hot as I tried when I tried it
I intentionally didn't reveal the temperature we use to color case harden, only the temperature we use to anneal (or soften) the parts.
I got a 25-35. Made1905 and a 30-30 made 1907. Both 26" octagon barrels.and great shape.nothinf beats more than 125 years of petina.
Absolutely! But what about the hundreds of thousands (or maybe millions) of vintage firearms that have been poorly refinished or badly abused and no longer have their original finish? There are a vast number of firearms that are no longer wearing their original finish and deserve a better fate.
Can you reuse the same charcoal more than once?
You can, but we've found its effects on color and hardness diminish each time it's used. For that reason, we don't reuse our charcoal.
Do these parts need to be braced in any way to prevent warping while heated? I thought I had heard that the kilns will throw off tolerances/warp bolt channels if you don’t keep them rigidly in place with some type of jig
I've used blocking in the past, but we don't feel it's necessary. We do get a little movement at times, but no more or less if blocking is used. If it moves a little, we gently heat it and move it back. Remember, the steel is still malleable under the thin hardened surface and can still be moved without damage.
Great video you guys do you do small parts like muzzleloader hammers and lock plates ?
Yes, we do. Our price list for CCH is on our website. www.wyomingarmory.com/services.html
Have you tried adding hydrogen peroxide to the water ? That would increase the 02 level dramatically
Interesting thought.
SLIVERS OF LETHER ADDED
We don't use leather or arsenic (or any other gimmicks), only wood and bone charcoal.
You forgot to mention the camel urine. That's why most places that CC back east are near a zoo. Perhaps your formula uses bison urine? I've gotten decent results with LC Smith parts. Those are basically 1020. Would you give a hint if there are major temp differences between manufacturers ? I've been having a hard time finding the wood charcoal. I now one guy that has been using coconut charcoal. Can you share any sources for pre-ground wood char?
We get our wood charcoal from Humphrey Charcoal. They offer a wide range of granulation sizes.
Is it possible to color case harden a modern replica receiver that has chemical case hardening?
Yes, in most instances. Carbon steels can be case color hardened. Stainless steels an MIM steels can't. There are some very thin parts that we don't color case harden because they are more prone to warpage and usually won't take very good colors. Give us a call if you have questions. www.wyomingarmory.com/
WHERE'S THE ARSNIC ```?
Haha! I've heard rumors of others using arsenic, but you won't find any around this shop. We get great colors without it.
Sir i have a question.....what do you do with a sintered( i think i spelled that right) metal gun???? i just redone a Winchester model 94 which had this and when i started it i thought i had really messed up ...couldn't get bluing to take at all...i ended up doing a rust blue on it and i'm happy with the results but i was wondering if there is another method to doing this...can the receiver on these be color case hardened or what would be the best option for those types of metals???...thank you for any advice you might give...i don't have the equipment as you do to do a case hardening but i would like to try if i ever could as i have a couple of single shot shotgun receivers that are case hardened...otherwise i will be shipping it to you....
Sintered steel can't be case color hardened. Rust blue or Cerakote are probably the best options available.
@@thecinnabar8442 thank you...i didn't know if it could or not but thought it was worth asking....it took me awhile to figure out this by trial and error..lol..i'm still learning and kicking myself for not starting this gunsmithing hobby at a younger age as fine old guns have always been my joy to own and repair...
Have you tried annealing in an inert atmosphere like nitrogen, or using a protective flux on the metal? It might cut down the time it takes to prep for the next step if the metal doesn’t get so much scale on it when heated.
Actually, scale probably isn't the right word for it. It's just a fine dusting of what I believe is the carbon that's migrated out of the steel during the annealing process. It comes off in seconds with a fine glass bead blast and thankfully doesn't visibly effect the surface finish.
BEES WAX
Interesting thought. I'll give that a try, but I don't think it would be durable enough to last on guns that get used.
@@thecinnabar8442 ARSNIC GIVS YOU THE SURFACE HARDNES USED PROPERLY ITS SAFE.