As a mechanic I kind of love it when you see people sitting at the lights riding the clutch, holding their car in one point. I’ve got a mortgage to pay. I’m happy to take their dollars.
My ex thought she was a skilled driver she could hold the car on the clutch and better than me because I didn't. I reminded her that I could, I just chose not to. Big difference. My car? 250k on original clutch. Her car? 40k and £500 bill. This was part of the reason she's an ex. You can't fix stupid and I definitely don't want to be with someone stupid. Stupid people cost you money.
And here I was my whole manual driving life, selecting neutral at every red light, not to protect my engine, but ‘cause I’m lazy and don’t want the left leg workout at the lights.
Good as modern clutches are, they're still essentially a wear item like brake pads and will eventually give out after long enough of normal use. So sad and inconveniently expensive as it seems, it does mean they're also the bit in the middle that means not having many 1000's of bucks down the drain with a transmission or differential shitting the bed instead.
A free tip, keep her neutral and have an eye on the opposing lights, when they turn yellow or amber is the moment to start depressing your clutch and engaging you gear, the one of your choice, by the time you get a green light, you gonna be ready to take off...it work for me...could do for you too.
There was once a time when the lights went amber on the way from red to green, giving you time to engage first gear. It was phased out in Melbourne during the '80s.
Great video John, I can point the finger at driving instructors. The one I had told me to stop at the traffic light select first gear, and sit at the light until it turns green. Kill the thrust race a little at the time. Talk about teaching a driver how to kill the thrust race!
John, I wrote you a email a couple of years back, about my experiences with a VW Golf that did a Blues Brothers on the motorway. During the rebuild, along with the supplier repeatedly delivering the wrong clutch, the VW Golf clutches that were delivered broke the first time the mechanic depressed the clutch pedal - 3 or 4 clutches. In the end, VW sent a technician to the garage to investigate; they assumed the mechanic was a complete prat who didn't know what he was doing. He watched, everything went together properly, as it should. And... Peng! The technician had also brought a new clutch direct from VW. The mechanic put it in and it worked perfectly. It turned out that the clutches were from a faulty batch, the springs weren't hardened (over hardened?) and were brittle. After that, the new clutch lasted over 250,000 miles - I lost track of the vehicle after that.
On the bike being in gear saved my life once. Car behind me didn't see the red and would have run up my arse at 60kph. I dropped the clutch and got out of the way
My old man always carried on about not riding the clutch, and sitting in neutral at the lights. Well, it turns out that he wasn't just being annoying! Thanks John, for another informative talk, and a good laugh as well.
i was taught, many years ago, to do exactly as you say. Put the gearbox in neutral and take my foot off the clutch. if i remember correctly, in england this was a requirement during a driving test. in addition one had to apply the handbrake at a red light. my first driving licence was in england in 1974 and i'm pretty sure that this was all required at a traffic light.
Thanks John, the 10 people in Australia still driving manual vehicles must have loved this. There are times the diaphragm spring fails, I guess those engineers who designed those springs failed metallurgy. What happens is the fingers give up pushing back against the thrust bearing and this results in a larger than is comfortable pedal force being required to hold the clutch disengaged. Those diaphragm Springs are very clever, because when they deform just enough they sort of pop inside out and the force required to hold the clutch disengaged is much lower that it otherwise might be. The failure of the diaphragm spring isn't consistent across all the fingers, the result is while one side of the pressure plate is disengaged the other side isn't, the thrust race rattles because it isn't carrying an even load, and gear select becomes more difficult. I, being a lazy fat ex motor mechanic would on my 50 minute cross-city commute, slip the gearbox out of gear as I slowed down to stop by eliminating the load on the gearbox by modulating the throttle thus avoiding the need to lift my fat left leg until it was time to engage a gear when the traffic re-commenced forward motion.
@@ridingwithpat Yes there is indeed and as I studied; "materials science" it was called back then, but metallurgy is something on it's own and closer to chemistry than engineering. Engineers are interested in the physical properties, the brewing they don't need to know that much about.
Why is the Chinese yield point always significantly less than Australian? We sell them good quality iron ore and coking coal but they still seem to carefully engineer metal fatigue and plastic failure of products operating in the elastic phase
Catch 22 situation really. You could save wear n tear on the main thrusts and the throw out bearing by letting off the pedal, but you are also prematurely wearing out the the baulking rings, gears and locking mechanism every time you engage gears as well. There's nothing worse than trying to select first gear with worn rings. A trick I always use is to select second or any other gear for that matter first before actually putting it in first gear for a take off. This because it slows down the input shaft to a dead stop quicker and easier too. This drastically reduces the the wear n tear on first gear rings so it can be used more reliably and quickly later on the transmissions life span as first gear generally fails first. And of course you can save a clutch operation simply by synchronizing speed and load just before coming to a stop simply by shifting into neutral without the pedal. I do this and more often than not I change successive gears up and down without using the clutch at all. Get it right with practice, you can minimize the wear on the flywheel, pressure plate , throw out bearing, gearbox, and the crank thrusts. Also in over 40 plus years of pulling spanners and an engine and transmission specialist, I can only recall one indecent of a crank thrust failure. Seen many worn and very worn thrusts and generally towards the end of useful life of the vehicle, but only one failure. The incidences of them failing is getting far less likely due to just about everything has automatic transmissions.
I agree entirely. Crankcase thrust bearings do not fail as a rule, it is a non issue. Foot off the clutch, lights turn green, quick depress and considerable force required to engage 1st and get going before intolerant traffic behind cracks it. If you depress the clutch for a few seconds before selecting 1st it allows the input shaft to stop and selection is easy without the wear on those 1st gear syncros. The thrust bearings generally last the clutch/car as you said and are usually changed with the spigot bearing as routine with a clutch change. I'm calling JC out on this one. He should of talked about riding the clutch, using the clutch to hold on hills, what causes shudder and slip, where the pedal elevation should be for take up, how to conserve clutch life and when is the clutch actually worn out.
The reason the thrust bearing doesn't wear out is because it has an oil film stopping the bearing from contacting the machined face of the crank. What will kill the thrust bearing quick is when you have your foot on the clutch to start the vehicle. That thrust load with no oil flow over the bearing will kill it quickly. Taxi's last the longest as they don't tend to switch the car off whilst waiting. Bearings die due to lack of oil pressure on start up. My windsor V8 still has stock clearance tolerance on the thrust bearing after 220kms (manual of course) In saying all that, good practice still to neutralise the g/box to mitigate other unwanted wear and tear.
"A Roman orgy of torque transmission" is my new favourite quote. I'm so glad I got past the sardonic persona to see the genuine engineering knowledge and challenging humour you bring to your content.
The way my truck (or lorrie, semi or rig, you know, the real deal and not a pick-up) driving instructor put it was: "a clutch is designed to handle the abuse, especially in a truck. If you keep the clutch pedal fully depressed and don't slip it, the friction material of the clutch plate will wear out way before the mechanical parts like clutch forks and bearings will. Besides that: when the time comes to replace the clutch the mechanical parts will be replaced as well, so don't worry about it." Then there's the thing of trucks generally being abused by many careless drivers, so especially in an older truck you'll tend to do your shifts when the vehicle is still rolling as much as possible, because a worn gearbox doesn't really like shifting when the vehicle stands still and often protests loudly. I've driven older trucks where I literally had to slip the clutch somewhat to be able to engage first or second gear when standing still to avoid endless grinding.
God I miss my Datsun 1600!. It's 4 speed so flexible that I didn't need the clutch to change gears up or down (not that I did that all of the time btw). However when the clutch master cylinder decided to crap out, I still got the car home using all forward gears no problem. The clutch was still working fine when I stupidly sold my Datto without any issues. Great car, sigh.
When I was serving my apprenticeship the correct terms were clutch release bearing and crankshaft thrust washer and yes keeping the clutch engaged at the traffic light is a sure way to damage the engine.
Material science to a point it can be understood in 10 minutes. Pretty impressive. So much more fantastic stuff to cover too... Ductile failure, von mises stress, area moment of inertia, crystalline lattice structure... Years of fun to be had right there. Crank thrust bearing condition is very easy to check. Dial indicator and a pry bar and you're done in a few minutes. If you're particularly lucky you might even have a pan you can remove in the vehicle and spin in some new bearings, arguably a far simpler exercise than doing a clutch. Actually working out you need to do so before it all goes bang, that's lotto ticket territory right there.
The first time I took my car for a service to my Austrian mechanic, he made me drive the car with him in the passenger seat. When he obseerved me riding the clutch at the lights, he said to stop doing that, it would destroy the clutch. Unfortunately the previous owner had the same bad habit, and even though I took the lesson to heart, one day the clutch pedal sprung to the floor, and I needed to tow my car to the shop. Good work spreading the Gospel according to John (Cadogan).
Good lecture. Love the technical engineering/physics videos. The intermission clip was particularly good and satisfying. I suggest you provide one such intermission with each video (or perhaps more). Thank you John.
i had a visitor this past week (between lockdowns in Victoria), she mentioned trouble with 3rd gear in her Wolseley 4/44. i currently have a parts car and a spare gearbox, with selector rods connected, so i put the spare box on the bench and pointed out all the wear points, i also showed then the Carbon throw out bearing, and explained that it's best to leave the car out of gear when idling, to save wear on the solid carbon donut shaped ring. i fitted a 5 speed gearbox to my mazda 808 years ago and the father of the guy i bought it from asked how i fixed the noisy output bearing, i laughed and explained it was the throwout bearing that was stuffed, (due to riding the clutch i suspect)
And hence the reason I disabled that stupid push clutch in to start on my Acura RSX. It's worse when you have to push the clutch start a cold engine that has zero oil flow...
I knew all that. Well except for the equations and the numbers involved. I also knew there was no way you were going to fold that rule in two. Cheers John.
My car uses a dual clutch transmission, and I believe there are two sets of forks and thrust bearings (one goes up the middle of the other!). As the transmission always pre-selects the next gear before it's needed, this must mean I'm always driving around with load on the engine thrust bearing. I really hope the engineers thought this through.
@@Chrisallengallery They call dual clutch transmissions "automated manual", I guess it could be called semi automatic. Like an automatic, you put it in drive and it will change through the gears as required (or you can click up and down through the gears on the selector or paddle shifters). But unlike an automatic, there is no torque converter, just clutches. It has very fast gear changes as while one clutch is engaged the next gear is already selected on the other clutch and it can switch between clutches in a split second.
So how does this work in a DCT/DSG/PDK gearbox when sitting at the shitville traffic stoppers onb the morning or afternoon trundle? Do their clutches still maintain pressure on things in the same way?
There are different clutch designs, some are engaged by releasing the pressure towards the engine's crankshaft, just in the video; and there are others which are pushed towards the crankshaft to be engaged. In the case of dual clutch transmissions, since there are two clutches to be actuated, in order to reduce the axial load on the crankshaft, one is pushed towards the crankshaft and the other one is pulled, thus eliminating or reducing the axial force acting on the crankshaft for extensive periods of time. All these explanations valid for dry clutches. When the wet clutch packs are concerned, this is not an issue since the design of the clutch packs do not necessitate an axial force acting on the crankshaft for operation. The force is carried by the internal carrier.
We are talking about dry clutch types. I know only about 2 makers using these: Ford and VW. Both have the throw out bearing from the transmission side (coaxially; they differ in how they actuate it - VW uses hydraulics, Ford plain electric servos), but there is one major difference towards the manuals: In those DCTs the reaction forces are held by the transmission shafts and corresponding bearing in the gearbox (these have to be designed to axial loads anyway, because normally similar forces are generated by the teeth angle when under load), so that force does not reach the engine at all. Wet clutches are way simpler in that aspect: There the complete actuating piston rotates, so all axial forces are cancelled out within the rotating clutch assembly itself, so needs no bearing for that force. But it needs fluid pressure seals between rotating parts and has to deal with friction material worn out of the plates contaminating the hydraulic fluid...
Yes. My son purchased a second hand ute that had a lot of city driving, but not many miles. He pulled up to a set of lights and bang the peddle went to the floor. When it was pulled apart, the thrust bearing was through the splines and would not return. The actual friction plate was in good condition. The complete unit was replaced. Hopefully that has taught him the correct way to use a geared car.
Question: When you're standing on the ground exerting a force of Fx on the ground beneath you, how does the ground work out exactly how much force to push pack with so that the forces are balanced?
My sister has killed 2 cars clutches because she was taught to drive by an instructor. She rides the clutch in to the lights or intersection, puts it in first to be ready for takeoff. Her 02 corolla was given to me with a very weak pressureplate and as the motor needed rings big time at only 250k, replaced clutch kit also. Friction plate was 3/4 life still, thrust bearing minor noise only. Then 3 years in a subaru xv, she tells me her clutch died too. Didn't get to see the results there, but certain it's same issue. Diaphragm springs don't compare to the coil springs they use on truck pressure plates, which is a key point you missed.
Hail to the visco-elastic rules of rope jumping ! Being young(er) and stupid(er), I did ride the clutch and the springs crapped out on me, while there was fairly enough friction material on the clutch plate. Had to do it all of course, it would be a no-brainer changing just the spring plate. As a minor addition, it was an italian 'mini'.
You'd think a serviceable thrust bearing could be installed behind the flywheel if this were that big of a problem. The plane bearings on the crank: Don't they maintain a layer of pressurized oil between them and never really contact eachother? Seems to me this would minimize wear to the point that it's just never going to be a problem. Excellent class in stress strain.
Nope pilot bearings are either sealed for life ball races or lubed for life bronze bushings, you don't want oil leaking out and dripping into the clutch. The pilot bearing is only expected to see around 700 rpm speed for a few seconds each time the pedal is pressed.
It's something I learned when I took driving lessons when dinosaurs where still getting in the way. I taught both my boys to drive and emphasised declutching into neutral even at the shortest stops. It is actually is a no brainer for anyone with mechanical aptitude. Those without, not so much. Same with feathering the clutch unnecessarily. I've changed enough clutches as a bush fitter to know it's no longer fun.....
I had never thought about the crank shaft moving when depressing the clutch.... I have always thought only about reducing the life of the clutch friction plate AND killing the thrust race as John explained here. Absolutely, shafted engines are uneconomically viable to repair and cost thousands to replace - but replacing clutches themselves early and unnecessarily. Who wants to take 20,000 miles off of the service life of the clutch? The same can be said of _riding the clutch_ by leaving your left foot to rest on it while driving on the open road which is akin to you leaving the car in gear while stationary, because you're allowing the engine to spin with the clutch dragging marginally against the flywheel wearing upon it and wasting fuel. When you're stopped, use the f***ing handbrake - it's what it's there for. When you're driving along the open road, likewise give your foot a rest and take it away from the clutch pedal.
When I was a lad my mates and I would have a competition to see who could drive the longest without using the clutch. Shifting up gears was relatively easy without the clutch. Downshifting took a bit more practice but once you got the hang of getting the revs right it was fine. We used the clutch for complete stops only. We never had a problem with our gearbox, drivetrain or clutch that I recall. Were we just lucky or highly skilled bogans?
Interesting. I knew about the throw-out bearing problem when sitting declutched but hadn’t realised about the engine thrust complication. I was also told that when you make a good gear change you leave one in there for next time. Won’t be long though until M/T are a thing of the past. There are fewer cars offered with them and a lorry driver friend of mine says neither drivers nor operators want them. Another M/T crime is resting your hand on the gear stick while driving. Not only is it poor control behaviour but it causes increased shifter wear.
Not to forget our Safety mechanism of putting our foot on the clutch to start our cars( at least 3000lbs of pressure on our crankshaft thrust bearing with no oil pressure).
Yep agree. Couldn't believe this was a thing in the states when I visited. Not sure if new cars are different but none of my manual (stick shift) cars I've ever driven in Australia have that so called safety feature. How hard is it to check it's not in gear before you start the car?
Same here...John is an awesome ranter...up there with Bill Burr and George Carlin. John is so good he could tour Straya with a comedy show...a night out with CarBogan ... I would pay for that.
Now that you pointed out that one of the main bearings is designed to counteract the clutch pressure. (Honestly didn't know that, but makes sense) here's my question. In a world of junk yard engine swapping, are engines designed for automatic transmissions also have that bearing as well? I'm assuming it does, as I've never heard of a failure due to an engine/ transmission mismatch in this regard.
Many, many, many years ago when I was a youngster I did a defensive driving course with Greg Hansford. One tip was when stopped at a red light be in first gear with your foot on the clutch in case you were hit from behind. Reason being your foot would slip off the clutch and the car would stall preventing you from rolling into further danger. Now I have to decide which is more important. Thanks. P.S. I was sure you were going to say beef cake. 🤣
Sadly, if you were hit from behind and with enough force to push your car forwards, causing your foot to move off the clutch pedal...then you're already moving, in first gear, and with the clutch engaged. You'd keep driving along at idle in first, until you found something to stop your progress - and only then would the engine stall. Voice of experience here - this is exactly what happened to me when I was a youngster. It wasn't at all fun, but it sure drove home the idea of never being in gear when stopped at an intersection.
If you're concerned about being rear ended, look down at the lever next to the gear stick. Drop the gear box in neutral, and apply the hand brake, commonly referred to as the parking brake... you know, cos it helps hold your car in the place you park it. A running motor doesn't hold a car very stationary.
@@rustymozzy In all cases, a rearward facing dashcam is essential... Put your foot on the footbrake Then at least three red lights might attract her attention away from the phone... if she is going to write off your car... make it worthwhile with some decent resistance.... Suggest not a good idea if your children are strapped in "back there"....
@Alfred Wedmore I agree, with one caveat: some countries (including Aussieland and the 'Murica) don't have an amber light before the green, only before the red. That said, if one is paying attention, there's no reason for there to be any significant delay in selecting first and letting off the handbrake once the lights go green.
Ah, the memories, from the days of antiquity, (almost 4 decades ago?), when learning to drive a manual car; minimise clutch use, keep hands of the stick unless changing gears, all that kind of stuff. It is not taught during during driving lessons in recent years? One has to wonder… On the matter of using Neutral while motion is arrested, could any of this apply to an automatic transmission? Obviously the hydraulic coupler does not have a plate wear factor as a clutch, although my non-existent fluid engineering skills flounder at the long term effects of churning oil within the coupler…
The fluid which goes into the coupler...also flows out of the coupler and into the cooler after going through the transmission...and having been cooled, flows back etc. etc. At least it does in those 70 years perfected, old-fashioned slush boxes... DSG and CVT....who cares? But don't hang on the steep slope revving the DSG/CVT in order to pull out at the intersection/stop sign/give way.... or so I've been told... or idle along at walking pace either... with those two transmissions.... they don't like that up 'em.
As an old mechanic i explained this to my two kids while learning to drive. The so called driving instructors of today say no , you have to have it in first gear while waiting for the lights. I would love to go for a drive with some of these so called driving instructors and just see what other bad habits they are passing on. By no means am i saying that I'm one of the greatest drivers , but I can tell you some of the shit us Heavy vehicle operators see on the daily , Hollywood couldn't make that shit up .
Someone provide a link to the Legislation that specifies this ... otherwise this is just a "want" totally illegal and unenforceable by the instructors/examiners.
What surprises me is that a progressive rate coil spring for higher loads in a LandCruiser etc can be purchased from King Springs in Molendinar for $102 and be flogged mercilessly through DPC for 10 years trouble free. $102, absolutely amazing.
Thank you for the added entertainment at about the 12:30 mark to get us all to re-focus. Thanks to the pharmaceutical miracle of dexamfetamine (prescribed), I wasn't quite at that point yet, but the thought was appreciated anyway.
Many people also have bad habits that destroy the synchronizers in the gearbox and potentially the engine if their foot slips of the clutch. Especially first and second gear are at risk.
totally agree with you. If we could only get transport department and driver trainers on board, clutches all over this fine nation could be lasting much longer... When I got my truck license I was told that putting the truck in neutral at the lights was a big NO NO
My ol’man was a “Truckie” he taught me how to drive in a VW Beetle. I learnt the art of the”double shuffle” of the clutch. (Just for the hell of it) Anyway, he drummed it into me to never ever “ride the clutch”. Then he taught me how to drive a Road Ranger Gearbox. I learnt the “sweet spot” on when to change up and how to “skip gears” going down through the box. By learning these techniques, clutch abuse, wear and tear was greatly reduced. I eventually went on to get my “Truckies License” and ran my own Truck Business up until l retired. 😊
I believe I have basically worn out my clutch at this point, 137 thousand km on the clock. It pisses me off to hear the high pitch noise as I let out the clutch on a hill start. I'm not at the point where I will replace it, because I have learned how not to create that sound. But it's coming. I don't do things like hold the clutch in at the lights and I try hard not to ride the clutch. It can't be done. The issue is peak hour traffic and the way automatic transmissions allow people to drive. We have long since past the point AT saturation on the road. Light turns green and I'm sitting behind an undiscovered a$$hole who, accelerates then allows their car to coast at inches per hour after 2 - 3 metres. I can't drive that slow without stalling and obviously I can't bumper car my opinion into the car in front to let them know that this is unacceptable. So the clutch goes in again (it didn't even get let off entirely), for the umpteenth time for no good reason other than to avoid contact with another car. GOD how I wish I had bought an automatic. All the while knowing full well then life span of the clutch has been greatly diminished. I wanted a manual transmission because I wanted a car, not an appliance. What I should have done is bought both. An MX5 for the weekend and anything automatic for the commute.
I wouldn't be too worried, clutches are wearable and replaceable items. I think (I'm not a mechanic) that 140-150,000km from a clutch is probably fairly acceptable. If you do say, 15,000km a year, that's a decade of abuse that clutch has tolerated. They're not particularly expensive to replace, unless like me, your mechanic discovers that the input shaft on your gearbox has too much play and you also need a gearbox rebuild on an old LandCruiser... and then the tears start forming in your eyes.
@@insipidpostule 'fairly acceptable' depends on circumstance. my car does town driving and some regional city driving with a small amount of bumper to bumper stop start traffic. It has done 260,000 kms and there are no signs that the clutch is going to need replacing soon. At a certain point using a km range for a clutch lifespan is fairly pointless as it will determined by driving conditions.
@@carl3831 Well, of course, nobody can account for driving or differences in clutch use. Some people ride their clutches and abuse them. Who are we to say whether this clutch has been abused or slipped hard at lights and uphill starts. But let's be honest here, 10 years out of a clutch can't be considered an issue with the clutch itself. How long do you expect a clutch to last? 20 years? Most cars themselves won't last that long. They ARE a replaceable item on a vehicle. By their very design and purpose they will degrade over time and use.
Well bugger me, I leant something (what a thrust main bearing does)- cheers John. I was brought up to believe that holding the clutch down just meant the friction plate slipped and gradually heated up.
I much prefer, at lights, selecting 1st, building the revs to 6k, releasing the clutch to the point of wanting to overcome the stopping force of the handbrake, then, on amber, releasing the handbrake and the clutch in one glorious moment of delerium. All right?
JC, I don't know about your experience with the kinematic bolt-ons, but I've found that the small brown adjusting knob on the front of them doesn't work. No matter how much I twiddle them, the elasticity and rebound limits of the bolt-on doesn't seem to change. A whole load of structural rigidity changes become apparent in other equipment, but I'm not going into details on those issues.
Good lesson, Driving a Manual 101. I thought another reason for putting it in neutral while idling at the lights is for when that numnut chatting on the phone in the car behind you destroys your back end, then your front end as you get shunted into the car in front and so on...the force of the jolt will likely make you release the clutch pedal precisely when you don't want to do that.
In this situation you would just stall then engine anyway, wouldn't make a difference to the crash. If anything, a rear end scenario is a good argument for leaving it in gear so you have the potential to move forward and avoid an accident. That's what motorcycle safety courses teach
@@Asher104 I agree - if it is a substantial impact, but a gentler tap substantial enough to have you drop the clutch, you could actually avoid hitting the car in front (that has a tow bar strategically placed to penetrate your radiator) if you had been in neutral by hitting the brakes...
@@MiniLuv-1984 you can hit the brakes and stop the car regardless of whether you are in-gear or not. Your brakes should already be applied at a stop anyway...
I’ve had the same clutch in my car for 13 years. I never ride the clutch or keep my foot on the clutch. Especially when accelerating. I try to drive smooth. I’ve never had to change a clutch in any vehicle I’ve owned.
Cant pass your learners test if you put it in natural while waiting for anything. Not at lights, in a car park or roundabout ect. Always have to select a gear and have the clutch in. Sposed to stop you rolling into the car in front if you get rear ended. Apparently a clutch drop will result in a stalled engine every time.
If you can bend a spring without reaching the yield point forever without changing it, why do springs get weaker over time? For example, the recoil spring in a firearm needs changing from time to time.
Spate of engine failures in 2008 production year Honda S2000's due to excessive end float of the crankshaft. Honda accepted it was a production defect & replaced most engines free of charge. The problem was due to roughness on the crankshaft thrust bearings which resulted in excessive wear.
Foot on a clutch? Minutes on end? That's like finding a car with a cassette tape player in it! When I did have manuals, I've never had a throw out bearing go out, and I keep the foot in the clutch. Last car had the original friction plate to 350k miles. Mechanic didn't believe me when I told him it was original until he pulled it out, and it still had the factory marks on it, a little bit of plate left, and what had happened was that those 5 dampening springs had finally started to break apart and were falling out. The times I did need to replace the friction plate, I'd change out the bearing since I was in there anyways. It's like $15 part...or it was....back when they made manuals.
Putting the vehicle in neutral and releasing the clutch at a red light may work in countries where the traffic lights have an amber light just before the light turns green. But in shit hole Murica, the traffic lights go straight from red to green giving no warning.
Traffic lights in Straya work the same way. FOOT OFF THE CLUTCH, man! Just remember that the 1 sec. it takes you to get into 1st Gear goes towards helping protect your life from Red Light Runners.
I have to say, John, you are a really funny guy - but you're an educated man imparting sage advice. Thankyou. When can I visit Dingo Piss Creek? Are they letting us Pommies in to the country yet to see it?... Sincerely - thank you for entertaining us.
Great explanation John! Reminds me of working on a friends MG Midget with a noisy clutch. Of course we had to pull the engine out. Found the throw out bearing was just a graphite ring. We replaced it with a true throw out ball bearing.
Just come across your vid. It makes sense to me as I am lazy and don’t want to hold the clutch in at the lights. But my child has just completed his P license test and according the TMR QLD a driver must have the clutch in and the car is to be in first gear when waiting at the lights. Maybe they need to be updated.
Some hill holder mechanisms are clutch activated. Don't sit at the lights with the clutch depressed to hold the car on a slope. Use the parking brake and select neutral as Mr Cadogan advises.
The one problem I've found with using the park brake for hill starts these days is that it turns off your DRL when the park brake is activated. It leads to a lot of people being confused by you seemingly flashing your lights at them every now and then for no obvious reason. :-P
I have owned several manual transmission vehicles in my 60 plus years of living stopped in traffic with clutch pedal depressed and when on an incline[slope] let the clutch slip have never worn out a clutch or blew up an engine, that is the way i was taught to drive manual equip cars . You guys ever hear of a borg and beck type clutch disc no diaphragm spring.
@@freda5344 Hill holder on my car just brake the car a few seconds. After that, the car starts to back up. The normal brake should be used to hold the car waiting in a slope.
@@lajya01 The Hill holder IS using the brakes. The hydraulics of the brakes, not like the wire tensions your hand brake may be using. You don't seem to know how your hill holder works. Hill holder must also be properly adjusted, yours "start to back up" ? that must be a fail in adjustment.
Thanks John for the info on the car clutch. I found it interesting to know what goes on down there. I just wonder what is happening down there with a Dual Clutch Transmission. Is it the same sort of thing as a manual? Waiting for traffic lights at roadworks, eg like 3 minutes or so, with DCT is it wise to move to "N"? Or am I over thinking this?
I'm surprised you're more worried about the bearing holding the crankshaft in place, than the actual riding of the clutch. In my humble opinion most, if not all money spent on clutch work involves the clutch itself, and rarely the bearing inside the motor. The release bearing is the one failing prematurely if you hold in the pedal all the time unnecessarily. Btw, I'm a qualified Diesel Mechanic by trade. So, there's that... Thanks for all your humorous videos John. 😎👋👍
And having a manual, is the best way of hacking the traffic light sequence. Simply take the time to select neutral...take foot of the clutch, glance around the dash lights and bingo green light and snap down the clutch ram into 1st and awaaaay you go. Whereas... merely sitting ready with foot on the clutch wearing it away, and causing upper leg trembling...... the red light will take its inordinate god fearing time to slowly cycle to green.....
Should one do the same with an automatic transmission? Obviously the double clutch autos are in the same boat as the manual, which is why you shouldn't inch forward with them. But, what's the recommendation for CVTs and AMTs?
As a mechanic I kind of love it when you see people sitting at the lights riding the clutch, holding their car in one point. I’ve got a mortgage to pay. I’m happy to take their dollars.
Tradies are especially skilled at this. They balance on that friction plate like it's an Olympic sport.
I have always hated vehicle abuse, deliberate or by mistake.
My ex thought she was a skilled driver she could hold the car on the clutch and better than me because I didn't. I reminded her that I could, I just chose not to. Big difference. My car? 250k on original clutch. Her car? 40k and £500 bill. This was part of the reason she's an ex. You can't fix stupid and I definitely don't want to be with someone stupid. Stupid people cost you money.
I know of tractor drivers who can kill a clutch in 2 weeks of apple harvest, Its a skill lol
@@khalidacosta7133 she sounds un educated on the subject🤷♂️ maybe you the dummy for not educating🤷♂️😜
And here I was my whole manual driving life, selecting neutral at every red light, not to protect my engine, but ‘cause I’m lazy and don’t want the left leg workout at the lights.
Me too. A Holden V8 doesn’t have the lightest clutch, and it’s much easier to just drop it into neutral.
Good as modern clutches are, they're still essentially a wear item like brake pads and will eventually give out after long enough of normal use.
So sad and inconveniently expensive as it seems, it does mean they're also the bit in the middle that means not having many 1000's of bucks down the drain with a transmission or differential shitting the bed instead.
Same here mate. 😊👍👍
A free tip, keep her neutral and have an eye on the opposing lights, when they turn yellow or amber is the moment to start depressing your clutch and engaging you gear, the one of your choice, by the time you get a green light, you gonna be ready to take off...it work for me...could do for you too.
There was once a time when the lights went amber on the way from red to green, giving you time to engage first gear. It was phased out in Melbourne during the '80s.
Clutch pedal has only one use - to change gears. If you are not actually changing gears, which only takes a second, then get off the pedal
Hill starts. And you don’t always need the clutch to change :)
Congratulations, John. How you kept a straight face while linking the ming molls to the attributes of the clutch components was a miracle to behold.
There were a few outtakes mate...
@@AutoExpertJC Is it actually possible to stay away from a Ming Moll's yield point? So much stress, and strain.
@@AutoExpertJC HAHAHHAHAHAHA
Great video John, I can point the finger at driving instructors. The one I had told me to stop at the traffic light select first gear, and sit at the light until it turns green. Kill the thrust race a little at the time. Talk about teaching a driver how to kill the thrust race!
John, I wrote you a email a couple of years back, about my experiences with a VW Golf that did a Blues Brothers on the motorway. During the rebuild, along with the supplier repeatedly delivering the wrong clutch, the VW Golf clutches that were delivered broke the first time the mechanic depressed the clutch pedal - 3 or 4 clutches. In the end, VW sent a technician to the garage to investigate; they assumed the mechanic was a complete prat who didn't know what he was doing.
He watched, everything went together properly, as it should. And... Peng! The technician had also brought a new clutch direct from VW. The mechanic put it in and it worked perfectly. It turned out that the clutches were from a faulty batch, the springs weren't hardened (over hardened?) and were brittle.
After that, the new clutch lasted over 250,000 miles - I lost track of the vehicle after that.
On the bike being in gear saved my life once. Car behind me didn't see the red and would have run up my arse at 60kph. I dropped the clutch and got out of the way
My old man always carried on about not riding the clutch, and sitting in neutral at the lights. Well, it turns out that he wasn't just being annoying! Thanks John, for another informative talk, and a good laugh as well.
i was taught, many years ago, to do exactly as you say. Put the gearbox in neutral and take my foot off the clutch. if i remember correctly, in england this was a requirement during a driving test. in addition one had to apply the handbrake at a red light. my first driving licence was in england in 1974 and i'm pretty sure that this was all required at a traffic light.
Christ John, that could have been a one minute video. I think the Ming Moles made it worth watching the entire video...
Wish he put a time stamp on the video.....for easier research purposes obviously 🙄
Fricken boring my tips off.
Piss on the pot or get off works for me;
Mostly..
Thanks John, the 10 people in Australia still driving manual vehicles must have loved this. There are times the diaphragm spring fails, I guess those engineers who designed those springs failed metallurgy. What happens is the fingers give up pushing back against the thrust bearing and this results in a larger than is comfortable pedal force being required to hold the clutch disengaged. Those diaphragm Springs are very clever, because when they deform just enough they sort of pop inside out and the force required to hold the clutch disengaged is much lower that it otherwise might be. The failure of the diaphragm spring isn't consistent across all the fingers, the result is while one side of the pressure plate is disengaged the other side isn't, the thrust race rattles because it isn't carrying an even load, and gear select becomes more difficult.
I, being a lazy fat ex motor mechanic would on my 50 minute cross-city commute, slip the gearbox out of gear as I slowed down to stop by eliminating the load on the gearbox by modulating the throttle thus avoiding the need to lift my fat left leg until it was time to engage a gear when the traffic re-commenced forward motion.
Engineers usually don't study metallurgy, metallurgists usually do that.
@@martintaper7997 I'm sure there's some study of the science in the curriculum.
Hey guys it’s actually illegal to be in neutral, do that on a driving test and it’s a instant fail but yes it will save all the components.
@@benharris7957 It's not illegal to be in neutral at stand still.
@@ridingwithpat Yes there is indeed and as I studied; "materials science" it was called back then, but metallurgy is something on it's own and closer to chemistry than engineering. Engineers are interested in the physical properties, the brewing they don't need to know that much about.
Why is the Chinese yield point always significantly less than Australian? We sell them good quality iron ore and coking coal but they still seem to carefully engineer metal fatigue and plastic failure of products operating in the elastic phase
Word has it they dispose of their boron by putting it in out steel. Cheapest way to dispose of it
Catch 22 situation really.
You could save wear n tear on the main thrusts and the throw out bearing by letting off the pedal, but you are also prematurely wearing out the the baulking rings, gears and locking mechanism
every time you engage gears as well.
There's nothing worse than trying to select first gear with worn rings. A trick I always use is to select second or any other gear for that matter first before actually putting it in first gear for a take off.
This because it slows down the input shaft to a dead stop quicker and easier too.
This drastically reduces the the wear n tear on first gear rings so it can be used more reliably and quickly later on the transmissions life span as first gear generally fails first.
And of course you can save a clutch operation simply by synchronizing speed and load just before coming to a stop simply by shifting into neutral without the pedal.
I do this and more often than not I change successive gears up and down without using the clutch at all.
Get it right with practice, you can minimize the wear on the flywheel, pressure plate , throw out bearing, gearbox, and the crank thrusts.
Also in over 40 plus years of pulling spanners and an engine and transmission specialist, I can only recall one indecent of a crank thrust failure.
Seen many worn and very worn thrusts and generally towards the end of useful life of the vehicle, but only one failure.
The incidences of them failing is getting far less likely due to just about everything has automatic transmissions.
I agree entirely. Crankcase thrust bearings do not fail as a rule, it is a non issue. Foot off the clutch, lights turn green, quick depress and considerable force required to engage 1st and get going before intolerant traffic behind cracks it. If you depress the clutch for a few seconds before selecting 1st it allows the input shaft to stop and selection is easy without the wear on those 1st gear syncros. The thrust bearings generally last the clutch/car as you said and are usually changed with the spigot bearing as routine with a clutch change. I'm calling JC out on this one. He should of talked about riding the clutch, using the clutch to hold on hills, what causes shudder and slip, where the pedal elevation should be for take up, how to conserve clutch life and when is the clutch actually worn out.
The reason the thrust bearing doesn't wear out is because it has an oil film stopping the bearing from contacting the machined face of the crank.
What will kill the thrust bearing quick is when you have your foot on the clutch to start the vehicle. That thrust load with no oil flow over the bearing will kill it quickly.
Taxi's last the longest as they don't tend to switch the car off whilst waiting.
Bearings die due to lack of oil pressure on start up.
My windsor V8 still has stock clearance tolerance on the thrust bearing after 220kms (manual of course)
In saying all that, good practice still to neutralise the g/box to mitigate other unwanted wear and tear.
@@JT-4real never ever seen a oil pressure fed thrust bearing ever.
There is no need whatsoever to be pressure fed.
@@ScatManAust I never said it was oil pressure fed.
I like the clutch down ready to go…the Sheila’s love it💪👯♀👯♀
"A Roman orgy of torque transmission" is my new favourite quote. I'm so glad I got past the sardonic persona to see the genuine engineering knowledge and challenging humour you bring to your content.
Oh god I've learned a thing. I always wondered why dropping into neutral was the way forward but now you've mentioned it that makes a lot of sense
Wow...this video was a Ming Mole extravaganza! And the clutch tutorial wasn't bad either. Keep up the good work.
The way my truck (or lorrie, semi or rig, you know, the real deal and not a pick-up) driving instructor put it was: "a clutch is designed to handle the abuse, especially in a truck. If you keep the clutch pedal fully depressed and don't slip it, the friction material of the clutch plate will wear out way before the mechanical parts like clutch forks and bearings will. Besides that: when the time comes to replace the clutch the mechanical parts will be replaced as well, so don't worry about it."
Then there's the thing of trucks generally being abused by many careless drivers, so especially in an older truck you'll tend to do your shifts when the vehicle is still rolling as much as possible, because a worn gearbox doesn't really like shifting when the vehicle stands still and often protests loudly. I've driven older trucks where I literally had to slip the clutch somewhat to be able to engage first or second gear when standing still to avoid endless grinding.
God I miss my Datsun 1600!. It's 4 speed so flexible that I didn't need the clutch to change gears up or down (not that I did that all of the time btw). However when the clutch master cylinder decided to crap out, I still got the car home using all forward gears no problem. The clutch was still working fine when I stupidly sold my Datto without any issues. Great car, sigh.
Yes the Datsun1600 was a very fine Austin engine, just made under license and properly.
I must thank you John for bringing back the Ming moles. Most uplifting.
When I was serving my apprenticeship the correct terms were clutch release bearing and crankshaft thrust washer and yes keeping the clutch engaged at the traffic light is a sure way to damage the engine.
Material science to a point it can be understood in 10 minutes. Pretty impressive.
So much more fantastic stuff to cover too... Ductile failure, von mises stress, area moment of inertia, crystalline lattice structure... Years of fun to be had right there.
Crank thrust bearing condition is very easy to check. Dial indicator and a pry bar and you're done in a few minutes. If you're particularly lucky you might even have a pan you can remove in the vehicle and spin in some new bearings, arguably a far simpler exercise than doing a clutch. Actually working out you need to do so before it all goes bang, that's lotto ticket territory right there.
John, it's a Thrust Bearing that the Clutch Fork acts on and Thrust Washers that keep the crankshaft end play in check.
The first time I took my car for a service to my Austrian mechanic, he made me drive the car with him in the passenger seat. When he obseerved me riding the clutch at the lights, he said to stop doing that, it would destroy the clutch. Unfortunately the previous owner had the same bad habit, and even though I took the lesson to heart, one day the clutch pedal sprung to the floor, and I needed to tow my car to the shop. Good work spreading the Gospel according to John (Cadogan).
Was it the clutch cable?
Good lecture. Love the technical engineering/physics videos. The intermission clip was particularly good and satisfying. I suggest you provide one such intermission with each video (or perhaps more). Thank you John.
John, I’ve just watched the longest ad in history for sleeping duck beds just prior to your video, gawd! I hope you’re getting a feed out these ads.
Ι just love those technical breakdown courses! Getting to know how and why in simple words and entertaining way!
Thank you John!
That noise at 24:35 is heaps of fun wearing headphones. Thanks
Dear God mate I nearly blew the speakers in my truck.
i had a visitor this past week (between lockdowns in Victoria), she mentioned trouble with 3rd gear in her Wolseley 4/44.
i currently have a parts car and a spare gearbox, with selector rods connected, so i put the spare box on the bench and pointed out all the wear points, i also showed then the Carbon throw out bearing, and explained that it's best to leave the car out of gear when idling, to save wear on the solid carbon donut shaped ring.
i fitted a 5 speed gearbox to my mazda 808 years ago and the father of the guy i bought it from asked how i fixed the noisy output bearing, i laughed and explained it was the throwout bearing that was stuffed, (due to riding the clutch i suspect)
Should have held off publishing this video until 1 September.
First day of spring.
I give that suggestion 13 points out of a possible 10.
Clearly your also a dad
My Grandpappy used to talk of days in his youth when there were such things as a clutch :)
And hence the reason I disabled that stupid push clutch in to start on my Acura RSX. It's worse when you have to push the clutch start a cold engine that has zero oil flow...
It actually helps it to start when cold. The oil will be a lot thicker at low temperatures and your battery will be weaker.
In WA, if you put your car on neutral at the lights, you fail the practical test for the driver's licence.
I knew all that. Well except for the equations and the numbers involved. I also knew there was no way you were going to fold that rule in two. Cheers John.
My car uses a dual clutch transmission, and I believe there are two sets of forks and thrust bearings (one goes up the middle of the other!). As the transmission always pre-selects the next gear before it's needed, this must mean I'm always driving around with load on the engine thrust bearing. I really hope the engineers thought this through.
Is your car a semi automatic?
@@Chrisallengallery They call dual clutch transmissions "automated manual", I guess it could be called semi automatic. Like an automatic, you put it in drive and it will change through the gears as required (or you can click up and down through the gears on the selector or paddle shifters). But unlike an automatic, there is no torque converter, just clutches. It has very fast gear changes as while one clutch is engaged the next gear is already selected on the other clutch and it can switch between clutches in a split second.
So how does this work in a DCT/DSG/PDK gearbox when sitting at the shitville traffic stoppers onb the morning or afternoon trundle? Do their clutches still maintain pressure on things in the same way?
There are different clutch designs, some are engaged by releasing the pressure towards the engine's crankshaft, just in the video; and there are others which are pushed towards the crankshaft to be engaged. In the case of dual clutch transmissions, since there are two clutches to be actuated, in order to reduce the axial load on the crankshaft, one is pushed towards the crankshaft and the other one is pulled, thus eliminating or reducing the axial force acting on the crankshaft for extensive periods of time. All these explanations valid for dry clutches. When the wet clutch packs are concerned, this is not an issue since the design of the clutch packs do not necessitate an axial force acting on the crankshaft for operation. The force is carried by the internal carrier.
We are talking about dry clutch types. I know only about 2 makers using these: Ford and VW. Both have the throw out bearing from the transmission side (coaxially; they differ in how they actuate it - VW uses hydraulics, Ford plain electric servos), but there is one major difference towards the manuals: In those DCTs the reaction forces are held by the transmission shafts and corresponding bearing in the gearbox (these have to be designed to axial loads anyway, because normally similar forces are generated by the teeth angle when under load), so that force does not reach the engine at all.
Wet clutches are way simpler in that aspect: There the complete actuating piston rotates, so all axial forces are cancelled out within the rotating clutch assembly itself, so needs no bearing for that force. But it needs fluid pressure seals between rotating parts and has to deal with friction material worn out of the plates contaminating the hydraulic fluid...
Yes. My son purchased a second hand ute that had a lot of city driving, but not many miles. He pulled up to a set of lights and bang the peddle went to the floor.
When it was pulled apart, the thrust bearing was through the splines and would not return. The actual friction plate was in good condition.
The complete unit was replaced.
Hopefully that has taught him the correct way to use a geared car.
Question: When you're standing on the ground exerting a force of Fx on the ground beneath you, how does the ground work out exactly how much force to push pack with so that the forces are balanced?
It's the same as how did you know how long to grow your legs, too short and you would not be able to reach the floor.
@@royblackburn1163 Fair play, nothing gets past you.
@@aussiesam01 I would give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
I like the clutch down ready to go…the Sheila’s love it💪👯♀👯♀
My sister has killed 2 cars clutches because she was taught to drive by an instructor. She rides the clutch in to the lights or intersection, puts it in first to be ready for takeoff. Her 02 corolla was given to me with a very weak pressureplate and as the motor needed rings big time at only 250k, replaced clutch kit also. Friction plate was 3/4 life still, thrust bearing minor noise only. Then 3 years in a subaru xv, she tells me her clutch died too. Didn't get to see the results there, but certain it's same issue. Diaphragm springs don't compare to the coil springs they use on truck pressure plates, which is a key point you missed.
12:32 - just got a real 'spring in my step'...
The energy you got man I love it. keep it up
Hail to the visco-elastic rules of rope jumping ! Being young(er) and stupid(er), I did ride the clutch and the springs crapped out on me, while there was fairly enough friction material on the clutch plate. Had to do it all of course, it would be a no-brainer changing just the spring plate. As a minor addition, it was an italian 'mini'.
You'd think a serviceable thrust bearing could be installed behind the flywheel if this were that big of a problem.
The plane bearings on the crank: Don't they maintain a layer of pressurized oil between them and never really contact eachother? Seems to me this would minimize wear to the point that it's just never going to be a problem.
Excellent class in stress strain.
Nope pilot bearings are either sealed for life ball races or lubed for life bronze bushings, you don't want oil leaking out and dripping into the clutch. The pilot bearing is only expected to see around 700 rpm speed for a few seconds each time the pedal is pressed.
It's something I learned when I took driving lessons when dinosaurs where still getting in the way. I taught both my boys to drive and emphasised declutching into neutral even at the shortest stops. It is actually is a no brainer for anyone with mechanical aptitude. Those without, not so much. Same with feathering the clutch unnecessarily. I've changed enough clutches as a bush fitter to know it's no longer fun.....
gold award rating educational material! thx again
Thoroughly explained John.
Spring moles! So glad someone else remembers Aerobicize!
I had never thought about the crank shaft moving when depressing the clutch.... I have always thought only about reducing the life of the clutch friction plate AND killing the thrust race as John explained here. Absolutely, shafted engines are uneconomically viable to repair and cost thousands to replace - but replacing clutches themselves early and unnecessarily. Who wants to take 20,000 miles off of the service life of the clutch? The same can be said of _riding the clutch_ by leaving your left foot to rest on it while driving on the open road which is akin to you leaving the car in gear while stationary, because you're allowing the engine to spin with the clutch dragging marginally against the flywheel wearing upon it and wasting fuel.
When you're stopped, use the f***ing handbrake - it's what it's there for. When you're driving along the open road, likewise give your foot a rest and take it away from the clutch pedal.
3 different names for one bearing? I've always known it as a clutch release bearing, there's number 4.
When I was a lad my mates and I would have a competition to see who could drive the longest without using the clutch. Shifting up gears was relatively easy without the clutch. Downshifting took a bit more practice but once you got the hang of getting the revs right it was fine. We used the clutch for complete stops only. We never had a problem with our gearbox, drivetrain or clutch that I recall. Were we just lucky or highly skilled bogans?
Interesting. I knew about the throw-out bearing problem when sitting declutched but hadn’t realised about the engine thrust complication. I was also told that when you make a good gear change you leave one in there for next time. Won’t be long though until M/T are a thing of the past. There are fewer cars offered with them and a lorry driver friend of mine says neither drivers nor operators want them. Another M/T crime is resting your hand on the gear stick while driving. Not only is it poor control behaviour but it causes increased shifter wear.
Not to forget our Safety mechanism of putting our foot on the clutch to start our cars( at least 3000lbs of pressure on our crankshaft thrust bearing with no oil pressure).
Yep agree. Couldn't believe this was a thing in the states when I visited. Not sure if new cars are different but none of my manual (stick shift) cars I've ever driven in Australia have that so called safety feature. How hard is it to check it's not in gear before you start the car?
Come on John. Stand for PM. I will definitely vote for you. We need to MALS. Keep up the good work helping to educate the masses.
What happened to Rant, John? I was looking forward to that channel taking off.
Yeah. I was hoping that would take off too.
Me too
Same here...John is an awesome ranter...up there with Bill Burr and George Carlin. John is so good he could tour Straya with a comedy show...a night out with CarBogan ... I would pay for that.
Learned this the hard way when i was still learning to drive in a manual, destroyed my throw out bearing.
Now that you pointed out that one of the main bearings is designed to counteract the clutch pressure. (Honestly didn't know that, but makes sense) here's my question. In a world of junk yard engine swapping, are engines designed for automatic transmissions also have that bearing as well? I'm assuming it does, as I've never heard of a failure due to an engine/ transmission mismatch in this regard.
You’re an excellent teacher, and very funny. Thank you!
Many, many, many years ago when I was a youngster I did a defensive driving course with Greg Hansford. One tip was when stopped at a red light be in first gear with your foot on the clutch in case you were hit from behind. Reason being your foot would slip off the clutch and the car would stall preventing you from rolling into further danger. Now I have to decide which is more important. Thanks.
P.S. I was sure you were going to say beef cake. 🤣
Sadly, if you were hit from behind and with enough force to push your car forwards, causing your foot to move off the clutch pedal...then you're already moving, in first gear, and with the clutch engaged. You'd keep driving along at idle in first, until you found something to stop your progress - and only then would the engine stall.
Voice of experience here - this is exactly what happened to me when I was a youngster. It wasn't at all fun, but it sure drove home the idea of never being in gear when stopped at an intersection.
If you're concerned about being rear ended, look down at the lever next to the gear stick. Drop the gear box in neutral, and apply the hand brake, commonly referred to as the parking brake... you know, cos it helps hold your car in the place you park it. A running motor doesn't hold a car very stationary.
@@rustymozzy
In all cases, a rearward facing dashcam is essential...
Put your foot on the footbrake
Then at least three red lights might attract her attention away from the phone...
if she is going to write off your car...
make it worthwhile with some decent resistance....
Suggest not a good idea if your children are strapped in "back there"....
@Alfred Wedmore I agree, with one caveat: some countries (including Aussieland and the 'Murica) don't have an amber light before the green, only before the red. That said, if one is paying attention, there's no reason for there to be any significant delay in selecting first and letting off the handbrake once the lights go green.
Ah, the memories, from the days of antiquity, (almost 4 decades ago?), when learning to drive a manual car; minimise clutch use, keep hands of the stick unless changing gears, all that kind of stuff. It is not taught during during driving lessons in recent years? One has to wonder…
On the matter of using Neutral while motion is arrested, could any of this apply to an automatic transmission? Obviously the hydraulic coupler does not have a plate wear factor as a clutch, although my non-existent fluid engineering skills flounder at the long term effects of churning oil within the coupler…
The fluid which goes into the coupler...also flows out of the coupler and into the cooler after going through the transmission...and having been cooled, flows back etc. etc.
At least it does in those 70 years perfected, old-fashioned slush boxes...
DSG and CVT....who cares?
But don't hang on the steep slope revving the DSG/CVT in order to pull out at the intersection/stop sign/give way....
or so I've been told...
or idle along at walking pace either...
with those two transmissions....
they don't like that up 'em.
As an old mechanic i explained this to my two kids while learning to drive. The so called driving instructors of today say no , you have to have it in first gear while waiting for the lights. I would love to go for a drive with some of these so called driving instructors and just see what other bad habits they are passing on. By no means am i saying that I'm one of the greatest drivers , but I can tell you some of the shit us Heavy vehicle operators see on the daily , Hollywood couldn't make that shit up .
Someone provide a link to the Legislation that specifies this ...
otherwise this is just a "want" totally illegal and unenforceable by the instructors/examiners.
Some heavy vehicle operators are terrible road users don’t forget.
@@DanWallis86 That's true.
What surprises me is that a progressive rate coil spring for higher loads in a LandCruiser etc can be purchased from King Springs in Molendinar for $102 and be flogged mercilessly through DPC for 10 years trouble free.
$102, absolutely amazing.
Yet Honda Shittsville wanted $800 a piece for rear colis on an 06 Odyssey.
Original...
Thank you for the added entertainment at about the 12:30 mark to get us all to re-focus. Thanks to the pharmaceutical miracle of dexamfetamine (prescribed), I wasn't quite at that point yet, but the thought was appreciated anyway.
Many people also have bad habits that destroy the synchronizers in the gearbox and potentially the engine if their foot slips of the clutch. Especially first and second gear are at risk.
I loved this video. Showing it to my other half tonight. Keep it up.
totally agree with you. If we could only get transport department and driver trainers on board, clutches all over this fine nation could be lasting much longer... When I got my truck license I was told that putting the truck in neutral at the lights was a big NO NO
I'd say the yield point is at exactly 12:20. How could anybody resist?
My ol’man was a “Truckie” he taught me how to drive in a VW Beetle. I learnt the art of the”double shuffle” of the clutch. (Just for the hell of it)
Anyway, he drummed it into me to never ever “ride the clutch”.
Then he taught me how to drive a Road Ranger Gearbox. I learnt the “sweet spot” on when to change up and how to “skip gears” going down through the box. By learning these techniques, clutch abuse, wear and tear was greatly reduced.
I eventually went on to get my “Truckies License” and ran my own Truck Business up until l retired. 😊
Should have learnt on the unforgiving David Brown box. Really sharpens all the gears.
I believe I have basically worn out my clutch at this point, 137 thousand km on the clock. It pisses me off to hear the high pitch noise as I let out the clutch on a hill start. I'm not at the point where I will replace it, because I have learned how not to create that sound. But it's coming. I don't do things like hold the clutch in at the lights and I try hard not to ride the clutch. It can't be done. The issue is peak hour traffic and the way automatic transmissions allow people to drive. We have long since past the point AT saturation on the road. Light turns green and I'm sitting behind an undiscovered a$$hole who, accelerates then allows their car to coast at inches per hour after 2 - 3 metres. I can't drive that slow without stalling and obviously I can't bumper car my opinion into the car in front to let them know that this is unacceptable. So the clutch goes in again (it didn't even get let off entirely), for the umpteenth time for no good reason other than to avoid contact with another car. GOD how I wish I had bought an automatic. All the while knowing full well then life span of the clutch has been greatly diminished. I wanted a manual transmission because I wanted a car, not an appliance. What I should have done is bought both. An MX5 for the weekend and anything automatic for the commute.
I wouldn't be too worried, clutches are wearable and replaceable items. I think (I'm not a mechanic) that 140-150,000km from a clutch is probably fairly acceptable. If you do say, 15,000km a year, that's a decade of abuse that clutch has tolerated. They're not particularly expensive to replace, unless like me, your mechanic discovers that the input shaft on your gearbox has too much play and you also need a gearbox rebuild on an old LandCruiser... and then the tears start forming in your eyes.
@@insipidpostule 'fairly acceptable' depends on circumstance. my car does town driving and some regional city driving with a small amount of bumper to bumper stop start traffic. It has done 260,000 kms and there are no signs that the clutch is going to need replacing soon. At a certain point using a km range for a clutch lifespan is fairly pointless as it will determined by driving conditions.
@@carl3831 Well, of course, nobody can account for driving or differences in clutch use. Some people ride their clutches and abuse them. Who are we to say whether this clutch has been abused or slipped hard at lights and uphill starts. But let's be honest here, 10 years out of a clutch can't be considered an issue with the clutch itself. How long do you expect a clutch to last? 20 years? Most cars themselves won't last that long. They ARE a replaceable item on a vehicle. By their very design and purpose they will degrade over time and use.
Well bugger me, I leant something (what a thrust main bearing does)- cheers John. I was brought up to believe that holding the clutch down just meant the friction plate slipped and gradually heated up.
I much prefer, at lights, selecting 1st, building the revs to 6k, releasing the clutch to the point of wanting to overcome the stopping force of the handbrake, then, on amber, releasing the handbrake and the clutch in one glorious moment of delerium. All right?
JC, I don't know about your experience with the kinematic bolt-ons, but I've found that the small brown adjusting knob on the front of them doesn't work. No matter how much I twiddle them, the elasticity and rebound limits of the bolt-on doesn't seem to change. A whole load of structural rigidity changes become apparent in other equipment, but I'm not going into details on those issues.
You are not applying sufficient lubricant...
@@JohnSmith-yv6eq Thanks for the info. Any particular type/grade?
@@csjrogerson2377
Whatever SHE feels like....
a man should always look to the woman for guidance and lubrication...
down th...
However, for knob twiddling lubrication, there is only one type I recommend; the same type as the underlying structure...
full-bodied synthetic...
@@JohnSmith-yv6eq Thanks. I have a spare tube of that.
I'm well aware of the problems it can cause - and that's why I've never made a habit of doing it in well over 40 years of driving.
Good lesson, Driving a Manual 101. I thought another reason for putting it in neutral while idling at the lights is for when that numnut chatting on the phone in the car behind you destroys your back end, then your front end as you get shunted into the car in front and so on...the force of the jolt will likely make you release the clutch pedal precisely when you don't want to do that.
In this situation you would just stall then engine anyway, wouldn't make a difference to the crash. If anything, a rear end scenario is a good argument for leaving it in gear so you have the potential to move forward and avoid an accident. That's what motorcycle safety courses teach
@@Asher104 I agree - if it is a substantial impact, but a gentler tap substantial enough to have you drop the clutch, you could actually avoid hitting the car in front (that has a tow bar strategically placed to penetrate your radiator) if you had been in neutral by hitting the brakes...
@@MiniLuv-1984 you can hit the brakes and stop the car regardless of whether you are in-gear or not. Your brakes should already be applied at a stop anyway...
@@Asher104 OK.
I like the clutch down ready to go…the Sheila’s love it💪👯♀👯♀
I’ve had the same clutch in my car for 13 years. I never ride the clutch or keep my foot on the clutch. Especially when accelerating. I try to drive smooth. I’ve never had to change a clutch in any vehicle I’ve owned.
Educational, entertaining and at times, hilarious. Brilliant John, thanks for the knowledge and entertainment.
I was waiting for the ming moll music and I wasn't disappointed👍
A pleasure, as always, thank You John! 🍻
Music and inevitable segway to mingmolls. The best way to cover up those pesky footsteps. Great video JC. Ghetto engineering is my favourite.
Cant pass your learners test if you put it in natural while waiting for anything. Not at lights, in a car park or roundabout ect. Always have to select a gear and have the clutch in. Sposed to stop you rolling into the car in front if you get rear ended. Apparently a clutch drop will result in a stalled engine every time.
Well I knew about the throw out bearing but I didn’t ever think about the thrust bearing. Thx.
A gentleman's club called Crack of Dawn... 🤣🤣🤣
I prefer Head in the Clouds...
If you can bend a spring without reaching the yield point forever without changing it, why do springs get weaker over time? For example, the recoil spring in a firearm needs changing from time to time.
Spate of engine failures in 2008 production year Honda S2000's due to excessive end float of the crankshaft. Honda accepted it was a production defect & replaced most engines free of charge. The problem was due to roughness on the crankshaft thrust bearings which resulted in excessive wear.
Foot on a clutch? Minutes on end? That's like finding a car with a cassette tape player in it!
When I did have manuals, I've never had a throw out bearing go out, and I keep the foot in the clutch. Last car had the original friction plate to 350k miles. Mechanic didn't believe me when I told him it was original until he pulled it out, and it still had the factory marks on it, a little bit of plate left, and what had happened was that those 5 dampening springs had finally started to break apart and were falling out. The times I did need to replace the friction plate, I'd change out the bearing since I was in there anyways. It's like $15 part...or it was....back when they made manuals.
Putting the vehicle in neutral and releasing the clutch at a red light may work in countries where the traffic lights have an amber light just before the light turns green. But in shit hole Murica, the traffic lights go straight from red to green giving no warning.
Traffic lights in Straya work the same way.
FOOT OFF THE CLUTCH, man!
Just remember that the 1 sec. it takes you to get into 1st Gear goes towards helping protect your life from Red Light Runners.
This is extremely awesome
You and AvE should have collaborated. He did a clutch expose only yesterday
But does John have Grecian safety sandals?
@@raygale4198 who knows what JC has below that desk?
I have to say, John, you are a really funny guy - but you're an educated man imparting sage advice. Thankyou. When can I visit Dingo Piss Creek? Are they letting us Pommies in to the country yet to see it?...
Sincerely - thank you for entertaining us.
Great explanation John! Reminds me of working on a friends MG Midget with a noisy clutch. Of course we had to pull the engine out. Found the throw out bearing was just a graphite ring. We replaced it with a true throw out ball bearing.
like the one on my Jaguar XJ6, it was so unworn that we re used it when the clutch friction plate was changed.
Release bearing often fails before the friction plate. You can hear it long before it fails.
Just come across your vid. It makes sense to me as I am lazy and don’t want to hold the clutch in at the lights. But my child has just completed his P license test and according the TMR QLD a driver must have the clutch in and the car is to be in first gear when waiting at the lights. Maybe they need to be updated.
Some hill holder mechanisms are clutch activated. Don't sit at the lights with the clutch depressed to hold the car on a slope. Use the parking brake and select neutral as Mr Cadogan advises.
The one problem I've found with using the park brake for hill starts these days is that it turns off your DRL when the park brake is activated. It leads to a lot of people being confused by you seemingly flashing your lights at them every now and then for no obvious reason. :-P
Then WTF is the hill holder there for? Its designed to do that, i'm sure the engineers spec'ed it to work and not fail
I have owned several manual transmission vehicles in my 60 plus years of living stopped in traffic with clutch pedal depressed and when on an incline[slope] let the clutch slip have never worn out a clutch or blew up an engine, that is the way i was taught to drive manual equip cars . You guys ever hear of a borg and beck type clutch disc no diaphragm spring.
@@freda5344 Hill holder on my car just brake the car a few seconds. After that, the car starts to back up. The normal brake should be used to hold the car waiting in a slope.
@@lajya01 The Hill holder IS using the brakes. The hydraulics of the brakes, not like the wire tensions your hand brake may be using. You don't seem to know how your hill holder works.
Hill holder must also be properly adjusted, yours "start to back up" ? that must be a fail in adjustment.
Thanks John for the info on the car clutch. I found it interesting to know what goes on down there. I just wonder what is happening down there with a Dual Clutch Transmission. Is it the same sort of thing as a manual? Waiting for traffic lights at roadworks, eg like 3 minutes or so, with DCT is it wise to move to "N"? Or am I over thinking this?
Such a great video, John!
Thanks for the entertainment and educational input. Geniously talented u are :)
Young’s modulus rocks dude😜
I'm surprised you're more worried about the bearing holding the crankshaft in place, than the actual riding of the clutch.
In my humble opinion most, if not all money spent on clutch work involves the clutch itself, and rarely the bearing inside the motor. The release bearing is the one failing prematurely if you hold in the pedal all the time unnecessarily.
Btw, I'm a qualified Diesel Mechanic by trade. So, there's that...
Thanks for all your humorous videos John. 😎👋👍
This was a very good explanation
And having a manual, is the best way of hacking the traffic light sequence.
Simply take the time to select neutral...take foot of the clutch, glance around the dash lights and bingo green light and snap down the clutch ram into 1st and awaaaay you go.
Whereas... merely sitting ready with foot on the clutch wearing it away, and causing upper leg trembling...... the red light will take its inordinate god fearing time to slowly cycle to green.....
Luv you man...u keep me sane!
Should one do the same with an automatic transmission? Obviously the double clutch autos are in the same boat as the manual, which is why you shouldn't inch forward with them. But, what's the recommendation for CVTs and AMTs?