FIGHT CLUB and Men's Mental Health with guest Gabe Kapler
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- Опубліковано 19 жов 2024
- What does it mean to be a man? This is the central question of Fight Club.
Licensed therapist Jonathan Decker and filmmaker Alan Seawright are joined by guest Gabe Kapler, manager of the San Francisco Giants, to talk about men's mental health, healthy masculinity, and advocating for that in the sports world and in society. They talk about how Fight Club is an exploration of masculinity and the expectations of men, and how seeing masculinity as only tough, aggressive, and hyper-sexual is limiting and damaging to men's mental health and well-being.
Also, Alan may have been in a fight club in college, but he didn't look like Brad Pitt. Which is deeply frustrating to him because Gabe REALLY does. No, YOU'VE got feelings of inadequacy related to the objectification of... listen, just leave Alan alone.
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Written by: Megan Seawright, Jonathan Decker, and Alan Seawright
Produced by: Jonathan Decker, Megan Seawright, and Alan Seawright
Edited by: Trevor Horton, tzhediting.com
Director of Photography: Bradley Olsen
English Transcription by: Anna Preis
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The problem was when Tyler started blaming and attacking capitalism
A series I watched a lot growing up was criminal minds. One of my favorite series of all time is Hannibal. Could you do an episode on psychiatry and criminal psychology in media?
Is 13:17 a reference to the sponsor? Blink and you'll miss it, but Jonathan is making quite the face 😏
There could be more but that's the one I caught
Edit: I'm gonna rewatch this whole thing now and find all the quick glimpses of these guys making ridiculous faces, I just found another at about 18:02 of Alan. Idk how many there are but it's fun to hunt for them
17:40
Was Alan okay with this joke from the editor?
Does anyone else see darth vader's face turning into one of their faces for a split second.
The thing people always forget in Fight Club is the author is a gay man which completely revolutionizes the meaning as well. The author would be considered a "castrated man" by the rules of the novel and movie. So not only is this a fascinating look into the nature of masculinity but a despairing question of "If this is what the peak of masculinity should be, then can (and should) someone like me fit?" It's a really important reminder that who the person is behind the media can be a fascinating glimpse into even deeper themes that may be hidden behind our base assumptions
Edit: Also, if you notice, one could make the argument that the postfight scene looks *incredibly similar* to a post-sex scene complete with rumbled clothes and cigarette. There could be something said about the combination of the two presented here.
Yeah! Bummed they didn’t really bring this up. I felt similarly in the Matrix video. The creators behind it were putting in a lot of queer narrative allegories that a lot of more main stream viewers didn’t pick up on. So many (straight) people idolize both movies and I feel like I’m always in the corner going “you don’t see the metaphor here?”
this must be one of the greatest comments I ever read. In the book, the narrator's description of Tyler is homoerotic and Chuck Palahniuk, the author states in an interview his intention of portraying their first meeting as such.
Which is very odd, because in other cultures homosexuality was considered VERY manly. Just ask the Greeks and Romans
Then in the “don’t talk about fight club” scene, we see one of the men in the crowd take off his wedding ring. Yeah okay it’s so he can punch bare handed, but still, you do that before you cheat on your spouse
"the author would be considered a 'castrated man' by the rules of the novel and move". Then you have the ancient Greeks where being gay was the ultimate form of masculinity.
As someone with chronic insomnia, the line "when you have insomnia, you are never really awake, and you are never really asleep" made me feel very seen. It's very accurate.
I really really want the official opposite of "manic pixie dreamgirl" to be "melancholic depressed elfwoman"
that's Galadriel
What would you consider the exact opposite of a pixie? I'm really interested in this concept now!
@@alicecarroll2923 Giantess? Depressive Giantess Nightmarewoman....herself, not yours(if it's all opposing)?
@@alicecarroll2923 a dwarf, probably. The opposition isn't about height in this case, but the overall vibe from the character
@@SarifaXionic Make that "depressed goth dream girl [DGDG]".
You guys gotta do "A Goofy Movie"!!!
The father/son dynamic is so real. A single father trying his best to relate to and enjoy his son. The son feeling misunderstood and embarrassed by his family. The pressure by others to conform to their parenting style and how it backfires. So much psychology could be discussed. It's one of my favorite movies of all time. It deserves an episode!!
The part where Goofy says how his son loves him and how Pete fires back with "Well my son respects me!" really stands out to me. Goofy just wants the best for his son but he doesn't know quite what that is since he already believes he's doing the right thing by being super loving. Meanwhile, Pete thinks he's doing great by having his son know who the authority figure is in the house. It keeps the kid out of trouble, but it also leaves him with a lot of fear.
@@ExplosionMare For sure. Goofy seems to be trying to do right by his son, where as Pete seems to be trying to do right by himself. Speaks to how different focuses create such different decisions
Absolutely. Brilliant movie I've watched with my sons.
"I was only trying to take my boy fishing!"
"I'm NOT your little boy anymore dad. I've grown up! I have my own life now."
"I KNOW that! I I just wanted to be part of it."
Looks like you got your wish
Honestly the id/Tyler Durden is fucking terrifying. "Do what you want" sounds inspirational in every other context, but with him it solidifies in unpredictability and oftentimes violence. There is no empathy, no consideration of others. The scene where Bob died shows that really well.
People are just a means to an end to Tyler. His peers are like puppets. That Marla was into him was her luck because I'm 100% sure Tyler just takes what he wants.
I would run a thousand miles from a person like that.
What makes it even more terrifying is that Narrator never even realized he was Tyler while he was out doing all these awful things. He was so psychotic and deluded he thought he was following a crazy guy and trying to make him better maybe.
"Do what you want with no consideration of others" is also the mindset of several toxic philosophies like Objectivism.
Way too many people missed the message of this movie and saw it too young. I missed the message and watched it too young, but I'd already been in fights and saw Tyler as a bad influence. I didn't see the value to the ultimate conclusion of the movie though and just thought it was a message to not give into your primal instincts. That's only a part of it I feel, and I love watching people react and break it down again and again because I always find something new to love!
He's basically sociopathic.
@@isapheonix no, he suffers from severe dissociation.
I was probably the same age as Alan when The Dark Knight came out and while I wasn't personally victim to it, the sheer number of dudes who held up the joker as a role model (even to this day) is simultaneously shocking and perfectly understandable. It's like people always miss the third act of these movies and just become obsessed with the personalities.
why can't people just let men like what they like. If someone likes the Joker then cool, he's a fictional character, what about it
@@painunending4610 no one said you can't like what you like, the comment was about the danger of making these types of characters your role models, and/or taking the wrong lessons from the stories they appear in.
Joker isn't the hero, he's never supposed to be a role model. He's a great (interesting to watch) character, sure, but that's not the same thing.
I feel like it was mainly incels/people who felt rejected by society that idolized the joker. Some of them were toxic but sometimes it felt like people held up these characters because that what they wanted to be. They wanted to be in control and they wanted people to realize not to mess with them. It's kinda sad when you think about it in that way. People don't want the insanity of the joker, they want the emotional security and confidence in yourself that individuality provides. The joker as a character always knows who he is and what he wants, and he doesn't care about what other people say in response to his goals. I guess it is logical why some people on the Internet started to respect him in that aspect. Those are traits they want.
@@machinaowl910 I'm only going to ask you one time. Don't use "that" word. the context in which you used "that" word was derogatory and demeaning.
@@Asgardian30 Oh give me a break
There is a reason the masters of mixed martial arts are very kind, calm, and patient. The discipline and control it takes to master violence, teachers you when to use it.
As someone whose dad is a 3rd degree black belt and almost became an instructor in a mixed Karate/Judo studio. Yeah, trained martial artist are some of the least violent people in the world. I'm 29 now and I've only seen my dad use his training 3 times in my entire life. 2 we're purely self defense, some came swinging and he reflexively put them on their butts. The 3rd time was too protect me, I was going to watch a movie by myself for the first time (Rugrats Go Wild, dad and brother were going to watch Hulk), he saw a creepy half drunk man follow me in alone and sit directly behind me in the nearly empty theater. I didn't fully understand what was happening but dad checked up on me, asked if I was all set super casually and then dragged this man I didn't even know was there out. I just watched the movie and then had permission from the workers to go into Hulk to find my family because their movie was taking longer. I didn't find out until I was an adult that after dad dragged him out, the guy started swinging and dad layed him out, cops were called. Dad had actually asked the workers after everything was settled to let me into Hulk if my movie finished first. There were enough cameras and witnesses that dad didn't get in trouble.
@@RiveroftheWither oh my. The things parents need to be aware of and watch out for, geez. Glad you had a savvy and competent parent/(s?) growing up. Eye opening story. I think everyone should learn judo. Well, at least the people who want to do good AND be prepared for the evil that is part of this world and put it in it's place (versus the judo for everyone including the baddies - but maybe the mastery and discipline would help get some of the bad out of the bad folk. Dunno.)
Holy generalizations Batman! This is not true at all lol. Maybe for some but I’ve known guys that trained in mma who were violent, bigoted people. Maybe the key word is mastered but even than I doubt that just cause someone trains in martial arts that will make them a better person
@@baptizednblood6813 BJJ and mma attract ppl who want to fight thanks to the UFC. but traditional martial arts stress discipline and tactics. in one of bruce Lee's movies, he talks about the Art of Not Fighting. In one of his interviews, he talked about having lots of challenger and said at point, no one was a serious threat in a fight, so it's sad/pointless to fight the challengers. BUT he also famously said, if he were stuck up with a gun that he'd hand over his wallet, because martial arts can't stop bullets. Only scared or insecure people fight, whereas the master no longer needs to.
@@baptizednblood6813 >anecdotes
>thinking generalizations are bad
lol go back to school kid, the guy is right about martial artists regardless of your tiny experiences
Honestly, I'm here for the fact that Jonathan and Alan have really been transparent about their past with toxic masculinity in the last few episodes. They really show, that yes, people can mature past that, but you don't have to tolerate it.
If you're not trying to be better today than yesterday, and better tomorrow than today... well, you have a problem.
@Fenrir Jono was a good kid in college. Imperfect, but good.
And as a father, I would be glad to see my sons be better at 15 and 20 and 25 than I was.
@Fenrir Yes, because that's what people who have lived it do. They try to pass their wisdom on. The same way an older kid tries to help a younger sibling learn how to read.
You getting mad about it sounds like you're aware of your own toxic behaviors, but don't want to change them for whatever reason. Or maybe you're clinging to toxic expectations that are eating at you.
Nobody here is saying you have to change. Nobody here is reaching through the monitor and wagging a finger at you. You're hearing the message and seeing it as a mirror. Only you know why that's scary for you.
People our age, me, Jono, Alan, can look back and see the shameful things we regret doing as 20-somethings, and, yeah, if we can prevent other people from hurting themselves in the same way, we're going to say something. Whether you absorb it and reflect on it is on you.
@Fenrir A bad guy can be forgiven by god if he chooses the path of redemption and puts aside his cruelty. So why should a couple of good men be sent to hell for making the wrong decisions once or twice? It doesn't make sense.
By making a simple mistake in the past, are you no longer qualified to become a good person? You are in the wrong here, no one is perfect so don't judge others so easily.
@Fenrir not everyone can get things right the first time, that is why mistakes exist. By making mistakes we learn and become better, and that is when second chances are born. And another thing, you are also wrong about everyone not getting a second chance, everyone does get a second chance, it's just up to them weather they live up to taking it.
No one is perfect, if you truly expect everyone to be so, then I feel bad for them.
Edward Norton actually hit Brad in the ear, that cry of pain was real and unexpected.
I think about it every time i see it and it makes the scene better XD
Viggo broke his toe
@@alex0589 The funnest category of movie trivia.
So like the drop in Die Hard?
@@alex0589 He also got Veritgo during the filming of Helms Deep i believe. After they cut, Everyone was walking down the stairs when all of a sudden he looked down and got insanely dizzy.
Imagine weird ass looking orcs stopping midstride to go get a Hot Pocket from the lunch area to help Aragorn down the stairs HAHAHAHAHA
I think he's doing okay now tho.
When I think of manliness I think off several things, but some of my Favorite are Gravity Falls and Avatar the Last Airbender. In Gravity Falls, Grunkle Stan says, "They where trying to get you to do something you felt was wrong, and you stood up for yourself. That sounds pretty manly to me." I like this, because it's a reminder that just trying to do what's right is good enough. I don’t have to be strong or a jerk to be a man. I just have to be willing to stand up for what I believe. Second is Uncle Iroh, from Avatar the Last Airbender. This is because I want to be like him. He teaches to be kind and honorable and to try and understand everyone and I just love that. I love it when TV and movies promote healthy masculinity. Also, this is me low-key asking for you to do Avatar the Last Airbender stuff.
I support the sneaky AtLA request :P
Iroh is one of my favourite atla characters too.
I absolutely love that episode of GF. After he does this single manly thing, he has a single chest hair - a great symbolism for beginning the journey into real manhood.
My Ex had testicular cancer. I took care of him during his health journey. He moved into my apartment for free of course so I could take better care of him. I spent month caring for my sick boyfriend. When he recovered he started treating me like shit. Also he got so toxic telling me, what I, as a woman had to do and that it was my duty to care for him. Of course I should look pretty while doing it and make money for myself. He refused mental health treatment but did a beard transplant to feel manly again. Of course I dumped him. He still owes me money. That’s what I call toxic masculinity.
What a dick. You deserve better. Everyone deserves better. I'm proud of you for getting out of that situation.
I'm sorry you had to go through that. I hope that you're doing better.
In both testis or one?
God! So he was compensating his literal emasculation with treating his girlfriend like it’s the 50s . Very sad. I’m sorry you went trough that, you deserved better.
Glad you cut him off. He needs to work on himself, far away from you, and anyone else he could hurt.
20:48 I've been trying to explain that to people for literal decades. I've always had anger issues, but wasn't really a 'sport' kid, I was the stereotypical 'nerdy kid'. So I didn't have a real physical outlet for my issues, other than breaking stuff. Playing video games and listening to hard rock & Metal was very cathartic and therapeutic, but nobody would believe me.
Wow, you're like an opposite of me because I'm a woman and totally was a sport kid (fine, a bit of a nerd as well) and I've always needed physical outlets for my anger and was drawn to aggression, though I eventually managed to channel most of it in a healthy way: my passion for martial arts. But no one seemed to understand, probably because I was the only person, especially female, in my family with such tendencies.
Why would nobody believe you though? Sounds believable enough to me.
Whenever i’m stressed i listen to slayer music.
So glad you tackled this. Huge fan of Chuck and love this movie, but hated how some people internalized the message. With how Chuck authored the story and how it was translated to film there was something that appeared to be disconnected with the messaging. Toxic hegemonic masculinity was the theme and some people still interpret the film as "oh this is what I should be doing" 😐
the movie also has a very fascist "tone", which is somewhat appealing to young males
My tiny brain hurts from reading that but I think I agree
🐺ofWallStreet has similar fanboy pedestals
@@ArukiTsukaru I'mma translate some of the big words in the comment. I wanna see if it works:
Internalized the message: Understood and made it their own real life goals.
Disconnected with the messaging: Because the movie is pictures and the book is words, the movie doesn't tell you straight up what is wrong.
Hegemonic: What the one in charge is saying, which then becomes what everyone is saying.
This is a danger, and in a lot of cases inevitable, when writing a villain as the protagonist. There is going to be a section of the audience that cannot reconcile the dissonance, and will see the protagonist as a hero and role model no matter how reprehensible their actions are. Breaking Bad is another example of this difficulty.
One of my dreams is to become a voice actor and when I was going to a film school I had this amazing acting teacher and the first thing that she taught us was how to act safely with our mental health in mind. As actors sometimes aren’t given the proper techniques to disconnect from harmful characters, tense scenes, etc. and I was so grateful to her for that. The main thing that she taught me when it came to crying or making sad scenes realistic is to find something that is a book, movie, or tv show that whenever u think about it instantly you want to cry. She always told us to never connect our acting pain/emotions to ourselves otherwise it can decrease our mental health. I never knew about this and this style has helped me become a better actor I hope that one day this acting technique will be taught more in the film industry so that actors can also have more stability in their mental health.
What a smart acting coach! I know a woman who was encouraged to engage with an extremely personal and traumatic event in order to get the tears on stage. She had a letter from her fiance who had passed away, and the director told her to read every night before coming on stage for the scene.
First off, that is sick to ask someone to do that. Second, it wrecked her emotional connect to this letter. More acting coaches need to be like yours and encourage boundaries.
@@cbpd89 yeah! This is exactly why she wanted us to avoid this too much mental trauma I guess the technique that she taught us was the original acting technique but then it got warped to what a lot of directors use to this day. I hope she was ok afterwards.
Circling back to "Share yourself completely" and similar language, the problem is, it's a platitude, a trope. It's an instruction without further guidance with the problem being that men and those unfamiliar with emotional language don't know HOW to do what is demanded. So then the internal "I can't do that" or "What good would that do?" gets dismissed on the surface as "Pfft, whatever," and one never tries beyond it.
It’s one of the worst aspects of addressing men’s health, speaking as a senior psychology student. Right next to people not facilitating a culture where men can actually be vulnerable and not attacked for it in the future.
To be honest, I don't know how that phrase could ever help a woman either. Like, what does it even mean?!
I think this is a representation of much wider phenomena - mindless applications of working solutions to women's problems to men's problems
@@qj0n I don't know what you mean by your comment (probably because my English isn't that good) could you explain it?
@@ApequH For last decades, we developed many new ideas on how to help women with many of their problems - e.g. there is a big self-acceptance and body-positivity movement, mostly run by women
Now, men have similar, but not identical, problems. And some people try to apply similar solutions. But these movements have no answer to problems like need for aggressions. As this episode and Fight Club itself show, men have to find their own solutions, which will match their needs.
And in this scene patients are mostly men, while therapist is a woman and she tells them this not helpful 'share yourself completely'
This is one of my favorite movies of all time but, as a woman, I never initially took it as a film about masculinity. Obviously, I can see that part of the messaging now. But when I was a young girl feeling disenfranchised by the world, I took it as a referendum on capitalism, consumerism, and the inherent emptiness of a society that doesn’t value people or their emotional needs, but rather what possible labor and sacrifice they can make for the ambiguous and uncaring whole of ‘society’. Then I joined the Army…
I was in basic training about 2 years after the film came out and someone had written the FC quote about dying and discovering there was life after death on the wall of a bathroom stall when it really hit me: I was trying to make sure my life had worth, was of value, but if I didn’t make it through Basic or if I decided to leave the Army (the ultimate fight club IRL), that wouldn’t be the end of me. And it wouldn’t matter to society either way regardless.
I realized I am not only this. I am not only what I provide to others or how I fit in to a larger machine that treats me as an easily replaceable cog. Also, I don’t need to beat someone else up to figure that out (though, NGL, it would feel pretty nice to punch a nazi at least once before I die).
FWIT: I didn’t fail or drop out in the end, but I think it’s still true that the military never had the hold on my mind that is institutionally most desirable.
Sorry but non of the problems decpted in the movie are captlisim fault all that is being decpted is normal consequences of the free market in general
Honestly came here to say this, but you put it perfectly. I was a preteen girl when this came out. Toxic masculinity wasn't something I had ever heard, but danged if this movie wasn't a glaring representation.
Even so...being a girl, I definitely got more of the "capitalism sucks" takeaway.
To not let yourself be defined by what you do for a living, or the clothes you wear. That society was a dumpster fire of ridiculous rules and expectations.
You guys should do one for "Turing red" the new Pixar film and have a guest talk about that. It has some really interesting subjects that should be talked about more openly. Love your video as always.
Yeah, (obviously I cried) but the messages are a bit more complex than most Pixar film are. It’s the first time it’s specifically for teens so the message is more metaphorical and (like Inside and feelings ) there’s more than 1 message at the same time. Plus…it’s the first big film that talks about the, well, female narrative so we know what females experience. Always was interested in seeing a film from that POV in that topic. Pixar is the best
Yes. I'm hoping to get Johnathan's perspective on the transition from childhood to becoming a teenager (expanding your social circle from your family and developing new interests) and Alan's perspective on the writing and animation of the movie (especially considering all the Twitter hate that the movie gets).
I've only seen Mei and Abby reviewed by Georgia Dow (great UA-camr, I recommend checking her out for therapist reactions) as individual characters, so I would like to see the movie reviewed from therapist's perspective as a whole.
another certified banger from the new age of ''the real villain was generational trauma all along''
I'd agree. Do Turning Red! It's incredibly wholesome, deals with all sorts of growing pains, and as someone of 32 years of age I found myself looking back at my relationship with my dad and blinking because of how much I saw there.
THIS!
I was definitely a little girl who desperately needed a physical outlet. I had karate. The funny thing was, I was never angry at karate. I could hit things at karate. I was perfectly happy at karate from the second I walked in the door. When I couldn't control my temper, I'd end up doing katas in the hall until I calmed down. Once, my blackbelt friend was about to snap and burn the school down and I dragged her into the gym for a touch spar. Blackbelts have to teach and she knew I was at a lower rank, that meant even though all we were trying to do was tap each other, it snapped her in to teacher mode where she was being careful with me, but she still got the outlet for all that frustration.
Just an extra point about the grunginess of Fight Club's aesthetic - it isn't just about the visceral feeling of it for the movie. The grunginess and decay is also part of a really important secondary theme of the story, that perfection is always temporary and so the pursuit of it is futile. The line "Even the Mona Lisa's falling apart" exemplifies this, but it's everywhere in the story, especially in the book where there's room for a lot more background details, like a description of how the Paper Street house was once a beautiful, luxury house for a wealthy family - the "perfect" 1950s aspirational home, but now it's a condemned dump in a barren industrial district. There's a lot of nihilism in that, but I think it also completely ties into that battle between superego and id that you guys talked about. The superego essentially wants perfection according to other people's rules and definitions of it, but the id says f*ck those rules because that kind of perfection is meaningless and it wants to create its own definitions of it instead, and then the ego in between them is left trying to figure out a middle way, as the Narrator kind of does at the end. Great video as always guys, and can't wait for part 2!
In the book they first meet on a beach where tyler is putting logs in the sand so when the sun is at this precise point it looks like he is sitting in gods hand, like perfection, it will only last a second
I remember one aside of the Narrator discussing how his apartment was basically like an ikea catalog seeking that sort of perfection.
2 things I noticed/realized about this movie watching this with you
1. The last rule of fight club "if this is your first night, you have to fight" is THE ANTIMARLA rule. There are no tourists in Fight Club. You want to silence that voice deep in you that's telling you things are wrong and you need something, you are EARNING IT here.
2. Tyler/The Narrator went to groups in order to get emotional release which in turn helps him sleep. When Marla invades that space, he creates Tyler, which in turn, creates Fight Club. The narrator THINKS this is the replacement for groups that he needed, that Fight Club is what gave him his emotional release and allows him to sleep at night.
But he's NOT. That's when Tyler goes to work. He's not replacing group therapy with fight club to release, he's in fact making it WORSE.
I am so impressed that you speak up about men's mental health. Love how you use your platform to advocate for a topic of paramount importance. Real gender equality also includes normalizing crying men, hurt men, grieving men and men admitting to feelings in a shamefree safe environment. I think we all - no matter what gender - deserve that.
As a man most times I'm emotional vulnerable, even in progressive spaces, I'm basically told to shut up, ignored, waved away, or told it's all my fault
People often talk about men's mental health, how they should open up more but I don't think they know the realities of it, it's just something nice they say to feel better about themselves. They don't want to actually deal with the ugliness of it
Unfortunately, that IS a problem I have noticed with some progressive circles. Given the visibility of historical oppression of women, such as voting/property rights and the like, it is all too easy to assume that rigid gender roles only hurt women, and only benefit men. I think progressivism as a whole is getting better in the sense that as a movement it grows closer everyday to fully casting off this reductionist cloak. It starts with individuals uniting together for collective action. If you hide your desire to open up, then you understand the struggle, which gives you perspective, and that perspective can be used to help other people in your situation. It is hard at first, but if enough people come to understand, it will be a journey worth embarking on.
@@cobblegen1204 Ironically being treated unempathetically it's taught me how important having empathy and has improved my sense of it. It mad me realise how important it it
@@painunending4610 I'm glad you were able to learn something good from the trials you have faced.
@@painunending4610 I feel like the spaces you were in were toxic in general to mental health. I checked out mental health servers on discord and they seemed super understanding. They didn't patronize you regardless of what gender you were or how old you were. I also feel like you're describing a struggle with improving one's mental health in general. Often times it IS an uncomfortable thing, but I don't view it as ugly. I don't view opening up as an ugly and cruel thing. People are cruel, though. People talk about mental health like only one person is affected by it, when the people around you can also be affected by it. It can be emotionally draining to deal with someone else's mental health problems tbh. A lot of therapists actually have this problem because of the amount of stuff they've seen/ heard. But if it is someone that you truly care about, that drain might be worth it. It would be better than doing nothing.
This movie and topic hits me so damn hard. I have a hard time comprehending how much of my life has been hurt by toxic masculinity.
As a preteen I was bullied and felt wrong for not being masculine like other guys. Fight Club hit me when I was just about to turn 18 and as many teens others before me, I took the wrong lesson from it. I internalized it, looked to be more like Tyler Durden, started turning myself into more of the toxic kind of man that I had been belittled for not being. I forced myself to put away my gentleness and empathy, and for a lot of years, into my early twenties, I hurt a lot, as well as hurting others. The headspace was very like the one incels create for each other online. I could've become an incel if I had continued on that path. Thankfully I didn't. This movie is still like a dark mirror to me tho. A reminder of what nihilism and rage could have done to me. I am still healing from my past and trying to find forgiveness for the things I did. I am currently working though a major depression and toxic masculinity has had no small part in creating it.
Hope you get through it, must be really difficult ❤️
The fault isn't in Masculinity.
You got the wrong lesson in a movie, became nihilistic and suddenly it's Masculinity's fault?
Perhaps you did not, and still don't, understand what is a Man.
Thank you for sharing. I know I’m just a stranger on the internet but I’m proud of you for battling both toxicity & depression. Hang in there, sir!!!
Food luck on your path
Its not difficult if you look in the right place. Jesus Christ is the modler of deciples like himself. He is real, fogiver of sins and makes people with his spiritual fruits and is the only way in heaven.
Great video! I understand this well as a woman who was in the military in a toxic masculine environment. Every day they directed their anger and lust at me, in mostly nonverbal ways. Of course, none of them realized the negative effect the environment had on them too.
I now have a lot of rage (and fear) that needs release, but fighting never seemed like an effective way due to my smaller size and weaker muscles. Plus all the conditioning that tells girls/women their aggression is bad and crazy and pointless.
My time in the military was the one time my basic personality, assertive and direct, was an asset for me. In the civilian world it has hampered my progress and I have been told to tone it down, when my male peers are praised for the same behavior. I found my time in the military to be freeing and my time outside it to be a huge drag and emotionally draining and abusive.
I'm sorry that happened to you. I hope you can find peace. ❤
I have never been in the military, but I am a woman who grew up learning martial arts (karate and tae kwon do, hope to do more). I also went to a tech school (majority male) and became a Silicon Valley engineer, so I've gone through a different 'woman navigating a man's world' sort of thing.
I liked the premise of this film because I totally get how psychologically liberating fighting can be, though I have never believed that physically fighting was fundamentally male. Yes, women's and men's bodies are built different and so you need some different strategies to be effective maybe, but I fought men and women alike. Most martial arts schools do that even if you don't in competition. And that's why I didn't particularly care for this film when I sat down and saw it years ago. It understands than an emotional release can come with fighting, but it doesn't portray that it can be done differently, without the toxic masculinity. Frankly, it is generally not recommended in actual combat since it is often the smarter fighter that keeps their head that will defeat the other, but if you let yourself, you can feel a lot better. Like an extreme form of hitting a pillow. There is something about exerting yourself physically that allows pain to be released emotionally with it. I have collapsed into my fighting partner's arms in tears when I've been successful. It was really good for me.
So I guess it's obvious that when I did it, we had different rules, totally not the rules of Fight Club. They weren't exactly spelled out, but talking about what you were doing was required. I would seek a sparring partner that I was close to and tell them straight that I needed someone to help me release some feelings I was bottling up. Preferably I would seek out a partner more skilled than me... My emotions could make me more unpredictable and wild in a fight, and I remember nailing one person hard in the head with a backhand when I felt caged (and then felt bad for that, didn't mean to hit above the neck that time).
Like I said before, I didn't like this film. Like mentioned by the CT guys, there's a dark, grungy feel to it that I feel sucks the soul out of my chest. But I understand guilty pleasures. Mine is the Kill Bill movies, but I stopped watching those too because although I feel a sort of corrupted uplift watching them, I recognize that it's not who I want to be, and so I don't let myself anymore. Just writing this, I feel like watching them again, but... I... won't........
I don't think I'm alone feeling that fighting helps you open up. I remember watching commercials for Tekken or Mortal Kombat video games with an elderly couple going at it... "That's for not doing the dishes!" "That's for leaving the toilet seat up!" XD It might look violent to people who haven't tried it, but if done with precautions and lots of communication, it's actually a great way to help release bottled up tension that sometimes you don't even know is there and keep you a centered person.
If you've been in the military and have sparring partners you trust emotionally (or maybe start at a new martial arts school and meet some new peeps), I'd suggest it, letting them know well in advance what you're asking them to help you with. Even if you don't tell them the exact details, warning them is fair. It's important that they know to push you but to pull back and be cautious if they see you starting to feel things. I don't suggest both sparring partners letting lose emotionally when fighting physically, because you need one supporting the other. I personally released some anger and fear which came out as tears and pain. I did feel better. It's like therapy without words.
But probably therapy with words would've been good too, so don't let me discourage that. :D Don't despise your own strength. Being tough can be feminine too. I appreciated Louisa in Encanto for that example.
@@xenonfeathers7773 Read through your whole chonker of a comment. Kind of fascinating seeing a woman that sees violence this way. I encourage other men to treat it much the same. As a way of channeling and expressing emotions (often negative ones) in a controlled environment. It's actually pretty wholesome when done right. Violence is part of who we are. In a way Fight Club shows what happens when you raise men to be utterly non violent.
@@spartan1879 This is why I'm kind of enamored by non-toxic masculinity, especially athletes and bodybuilders and people who enjoy larping and doing goofy shit. There's a lot of capacity in humans to expend intense amounts of physical energy in a sort of savage chaotic way that is at the same time totally happy and healthy. The energy of jumping in a pile of leaves, or a kid asking to be tossed overhand into a bed. The desire to be a physical object. Although as an amateur psychologist I have to warn that expressing ANGER and similar emotions like frustration and grief through physical means is a BAD idea. The more you do it, less in control of yourself you will be. Healthy violence is lighthearted.
What Gabe mentions towards the start of the video, about how athletes are pushed to never take a day off, push through any pain or discomfort- physically or mentally- feels totally accurate to my experience as well. Admittedly I’ve spent my life doing dance and musical theater, around cheerleaders and ballerinas- athletics that aren’t considered to be sports by the general public. But the “push through the pain” element was still the same- the stories about going into a performance with the flu and having a crew member waiting in the wings with a bucket are the ones that are lauded, repeated with awe and reverence. It’s an incredibly toxic part of the environment.
This immediately reminds me of the line in a League of their own -"There's no crying in baseball". Mental health is really important no matter what you do professionally. Your school janitor to the CEO of fortune 500 companies all have mental health care needs we don't know about. I do appreciate the point that Mr. Kapler makes in regards to understanding how to talk to male clientele verses women, children, and other populations. Meeting people where they are is a skill that takes time to cultivate and practice and takes time because you have to get to know the other person a bit. I remember speaking with a youth client who was asking for advice for helping a friend in a situation they didn't want to tell their parents about. When I gave my advice, they said they didn't want to sound too therapist like in conversation. It was the first time someone had said that to me so I was a little surprised, but then we discussed how he could use the ideas but in his own way.
Anyway, not a fan of this movie, but appreciate your conversations around it. Always look forward to your uploads! Cheers, have a great weekend folks.
Absolutely! Especially because the person saying that line is a (mostly?) functioning alcoholic, whose addiction is known by most of his colleagues/industry peers.
Maybe if he/they could allow more crying he wouldn't have turned to alcohol to cope
My basic take on “toxic masculinity” is to remember who is hurt by a toxin. A toxin is something that we take in that hurts *us*. The primary victims of toxic masculinity are the men who try to embody it.
I'd say that's not entirely accurate. I think of what someone said about mental illness in general. "People tend to treat mental illness like one person is struggling, and one person alone. But that's not true, it's really hard to be the support."
They are struggling, but let's not ignore the effects on others, whether they hurt them directly like abuse, or having their loved ones watch as they lose themselves to this toxic mindset. They are all effected by it, because no one lives in a vacuum.
@@SarahAbramova exactly. Well put!
Eh, being a perpetrator is a choice. Being a victim isn't. Toxically masculine men do both to themselves. But the reality of the world is that they are definitely not the primary victims of it.
This... this is one of the most beautifully perfect things I've ever read. So simple yet it explains so much.
@@gayhomosexuallll Some men perhaps but I would say the majority of men who suffer from toxic masculinity are driven to that by society. They think it's how they're "supposed" to be. When their family and peers all have put that pressure on them and they're being told "Boys don't cry" "Boys should be tough" "Men matter more than women" and even being punished for "showing weakness" eventually that warps even a good person. Though at the end of the day while I don't think it is exactly a mental condition like depression or anxiety so there is ultimately choice behind it, I think it's really a combination of societal factors that pressure men until the point they start developing mental health issues and they're actively taught NOT to seek help for it. They are not a victim of their OWN toxic masculinity per-say but they are victims of the toxicity of the people around them. It's just this endless spiral that is extraordinarily hard for guys to get out of.
Fight Club is one of those movies where everyone knows THE line even if you've never seen the movie.
That's a whole level of iconic most movies could only HOPE to achieve.
Never watched the movie, what line are you talking about? I am really curious
@@SieMiezekatze I’ve never seen it either r but the line is “first rule of fight club is, you don’t talk about fight club”.
Dare I ask what line?
@@Levi_Zachariasclearly it's
''I Am Jack's Medulla Oblongata
I Am Jill's Nipple
I Am Jack's Colon''
"Welcome to Fight Club. The first rule of Fight Club is: you do not talk about Fight Club. The second rule of Fight Club is: you DO NOT talk about Fight Club! Third rule of Fight Club: if someone yells “stop!”, goes limp, or taps out, the fight is over."
This is my favorite movie. How I've interpreted it over the years has been a marker of how I've matured. I come back to it every year or two, and each time it feels like watching a different movie.
Thank you! Toxic masculinity isn't hating men. Its saying men are constrained by social pressures, like how women are by misogyny. I feel bad for guys, as a chick myself, I can be close and even intimate with my female friends without ever feeling insecure or frightened that I'll be judged or predated upon. It seems like cis guys are often only vulnerable with women (at least in my experience). I think the film is also about self injury, in a way. Validating how you feel through injury & getting that rush of endorphins. Women cut themselves, men start fights.
Tragically, so many comments on Fight Club clips are just seeing it from Tyler's perspective, they don't recognise its a critique of that hyper-masculine, angry lifestyle.
Also, just fyi, paradoxically bare knuckle boxing is generally safer because there's less blows to the head, its just bloodier because you get more cuts (you don't want to break your weapons: your hands).
Exactly! Physical touch is actually important to our mental well being, and not just romantic touching.
As a woman, my friends and I will watch movies while we lean against eachother, or lay with our heads in eachothers laps, and it's entirely platonic. Men are taught that that's not okay to do with other men, and it leaves them insecure.
I have a sore neck, I can ask a friend to give me a neck/shoulder run and it's not awkward. Men will get weird about asking other men to do it. They're basically trained that all touch has to be either sexual or violent.
@@coffeeaddict9605 Isn't it tragic! I'm familiar with all the downsides of being a woman (sexual harassment, assault, sexism, disrespect) but I feel awful that men can't share that closeness with their friends. Imagine not being able to fully express yourself with your best friend, can't snuggle up and perhaps, cry (out of fear of being seen as 'feminine' - god forbid! lol)! All those repressed feelings - how depressing!
I, too, give massages to my female friends (snap! lol) and (sometimes, if they're chill and ok with it, to male family/friends - so long as they know its plutonic). Touch doesn't have to be sexual, or threatening, it can be healing.
I just feel sad that men are missing out on so much validation (either talking or physical), and its not surprising they vent through anger or sex. But these open, insightful, and at times, vulnerable men we see before us are great inspirers. More understanding and empathy, all round, thanks!
@@coffeeaddict9605 Guy here. "They're basically trained that all touch has to be either sexual or violent."
That line kinda angers me because its completely wrong and downright harmful to men.
We men can show intimacy and closeness to each other. We can hug each other and be touchy with each other. Its just not your version.
(Some stereotypes will show up.. i know)
You women give each other a deep hug.. rub each other's shoulders and backs while saying 'oh honey.. i know right... let it all out'.
We men just give each other a though hug and a harsh pat on the back while saying 'don't worry bud... its ok.'
I will not give a female friend a pat on the back the same way i do to a male friend, because it will hurt her. She is not used to this type of affection.. but it is affection none the less. If your girlfriend feels down, you sit next to her, give her a deep hug and ask her what's wrong. You don't do that to your male friends because we generally speaking don't like that type of stuff from other men. From women? sure.. just not from men, because we have other ways of showing we care.
You have a crying session with ice-cream. We have cracking open a cold one with the boys.
You have a shoulder rub. We have a pat on the back.
But just because they're not your version of intimacy, that doesn't mean they're not intimacy at all.
Just because you can't communicate with the French because you don't speak their language.. that does not mean they cannot communicate with each other.
@@MegaGothmog indeed the way she talks seemes very patronizing
@@MegaGothmog Men simply interact differently than women, the problem is how boys/men interact is frown upon and ironically some women feel some type of way when a man shows weakness how they want it to be. SO some boys/men see all intimacy as bad due to this push and pull. "Wrasslin' too violent" yet "He's suspect for crying". I honestly heard "Man Up" more from women than men... A lot of toxic masculinity is really toxic femininity since if it is instilled by one's mother she's upholding the very standards she overall will turn around and claim she doesn't like.
when I was back in high school, my merry band of cohorts and I actually started our own fight club that happened 30 minutes before first period. There were 6-7 of us, rules 1 and 2 were the same, but our safety rules were no face shots, no back shots, and no hitting below the belt. Only injuries at the end of each meeting was a couple bruised egos. Didn't do it to be cool, didn't do it to cause pain, we were just high energy teenagers with an interest in kicking the shit out of each other. Those days were fun.
13:44 I had never thought about that until I was helping a friend of mine when he was going through a really hard break up. When we finally sat down to talk, I brought a pack of tissues, put them in front of him and didn’t say anything, because I expected him to cry like me or my other friends. He looked at them and looked at me like he had no idea why they were there. After we had talked a bit and I hadn’t said anything about crying, he looked at me and said “Don’t pity me. I never want to be pitied,” kinda teared up, and mostly used the tissues for his nose. The next time we talked about it, he choked up a bit, asked if I had tissues (in my pocket) and after waiting, went for them a bit faster. I had never seen that before and think he’s a lot more secure now with opening up than he was before because of his own work
That’s so good! 🎉
6:17 😅 blink and you'll miss it 🙈 As an aspiring MFT and a movie lover, this series literally gives me life. I've also cried more in the last month (since discovering this channel) than I have in the last ten years combined so... Thanks for that. But in all honesty, you're both doing a great job! Much, much love!
I said Wtf was that! I had to rewind and slow mo to make sure I wasn’t going crazy
fun fact: there's another at 13:17
Ooooh, we're talking about Fight Club! Breakin' the rules. 🤣 Also, so great to see Gabe Kapler joining you! The SF Giants are my team and I'm proud of them. I was so surprised to see a familiar face!
We're very rebellious. We might talk about Bruno, too.
@@CinemaTherapyShow I see what you did there 👀
@@CinemaTherapyShow you've already talked about Bruno...
Well, the movie at least
literally my favorite thing about this movie is that everyone generally follows the first rule. through my first 17 years of life, having only seen it last year, i thought it was a movie about a fight club. I went into it with no context and it was absolutely fantastic. a great time of a movie, and a great episode by you guys!
The amount of men I have met who think that Fight Club is being 100% genuine and isn’t just criticism and satire of toxic masculinity….
@@osmosisjones4912 I see you here trying to start stuff.. because half of it is bizarrely incorrect, or just nonsense like this. Stop. Just stop. We don't accept people trying to start shit for shits and giggles sake.
@@osmosisjones4912 *quietly* don't
They probably have Scarface posters too
@@osmosisjones4912 really? So, talking "too much", concern over your own looks, being open about feelings... things considered feminine in society, are never looked down on? Grow up. We don't say you thro like a man as an insult. We don't use beinganly as a way to say weak. Acknowledging the pitfalls of societal gender expectations isn't being unfair. You are just so used to hearing about how femininity is evil (shit, that's the basis of much of the bible)Bible, that it isn't even seen by you. Only this newer observation of how harmful those expectations are to men. And you still feel attacked. Grow. Up.
@@heartdragon2386 ok now wait. Hold on just one second. This guy is starting shit for shits sake. I mean they are talking about how men without balls are by definition not men in one other comment, which is a whole other form of attacks against men. Although as I'm typing this, it does stick out that the ultimate insult against a man is that he acts like a woman. Which.. wow.
Whoa 😳 how did they get Gabe Kapler to join them for commentary? That's so cool. Big Giants fan and Gabe offers great commentary and insight, really special and unique manager of a baseball team.
I loved how textured and layered this film is. The messaging is nuanced and powerful. I recognize now that it's skewering toxic masculinity, but when I first watched it as a teen I also felt it was a commentary on society as a whole where we don't connect and we bottle up what we feel behind consumerism. It's the "depressed? Try buying something" way of how we try to fill voids in our self with things that don't really serve our needs. I remember movies and music of the time really taking shots at the veneer of respectable society and how fake it is.
Absolutely! The toxic masculinity is a really important aspect of it, but I think part of that is tied into the much wider idea of the disconnect between society's expectations on us and what our inner voices actually want but that we don't even know how to express to ourselves, let alone to others to actually realise them. The Narrator goes on these incredibly convoluted paths, from faking himself into support groups for the terminally ill, to fighting strangers in a basement and starting a domestic terrorism cult, and even creating Tyler in his subconscious, all because until the very end of the film he simply doesn't know how to access his genuine emotions or to express how he's actually feeling because that's how the society around him has taught him to be.
This is maybe my 2nd favorite book and in the top 10 of my favorite movies. I'm a female but when I first saw this I connected to it so well. My family was very shallow and materialistic, and I had a lot of repressed anger from being passive-aggressively and directly verbally abused for not falling in line with their values. Trying to not care about what they said, or letting it "slide", helped me cope a lot.
You guys should definitely do the Kung Fu Panda trilogy sometime!
OMG yes!!
I 3rd this!!!
I love those movies! I relate with Pho a lot! They really help me with my past and I finally moved on!
Yes! I love the messages in all 3 films, Po's growth into maturity, and the Taoism aspect of them (as an ex-Christian whose beliefs now line up with Taoism)
Yesssssss
I’m so glad you commented on Tyler’s wardrobe.
When I first watched Fight Club I didn’t have much of a critical eye for the choices and details of filmmaking. But I could feel the impact of his wardrobe. He starts out wearing very cool looking non-traditional bohemian clothing. It’s still within the confines of what a normal wardrobe is supposed to look like, but it’s just out there enough to make him stand out from the crowd and feel like a cool renegade, (while still wearing what’s almost certainly a very expensive custom leather jacket.)
But as the film progresses, his perfect hair goes to a buzz cut. He gains very noticeable damage to his front teeth. And his cool wardrobe starts looking utterly deranged, as though he’s gotten dressed in the back room of a thrift shop with the lights out. Tyler’s appearance, and by extension his philosophies, have gone off the rails and become unhinged and off-putting.
It does kind of feed into the icky beauty equates to virtue, ugliness equates to wickedness trope. But it’s a brilliant bit of characterisation through wardrobe.
Great film, it's just sad that many people use it to justify toxic behaviour or at the very least normalize it, when the movie was really criticizing it.
The problem was when Tyler started blaming and attacking capitalism. Like a college educated loser .
He Turned Men's Rights in to Antifa
@@Smartass012 okay redpill Cosby
@redPill Cosby Who let you out of your MGTOW cage?
@@RiveroftheWither mgtow is freedom. Commie's of course call freedom slavery
As a women who works in kitchens... this is so relatable. Especially in a male dominated field. We have to suppress our natural need to care and console and are put up against high stress and we have to let our testosterone fuel us to get through a 15 hour shift without breaking down from stress.
I love your channel. Maybe focus on an involved female chef movie? Or even the movie Chef.
There I was, going through the Cinema Therapy archive just to keep myself happy and then you post! Happy Friday :D
I love this channel and all you do to promote positive masculinity. And promote being great guys in general ✨✨
Look at crime rates mass shooters lot of them seem to have low testosterone and the Aww guys big warm nice guys the aww guys like cute little things kids puppies. Protective of who they love .
The testesterone link is debunked. There's even a documentary on testosterone Debunking much it's bad rap.
Testosterone is just a Fuel.
Turns out it's also lack of Serotonin and agression has more to do with blood pressure . look at women on periods
@@Smartass012 are you trolling or ill?
Really they will never do Fifty Shades?
I love how at 18:04 there was a flash of Alan's face just like the "adult film" flashes that Tyler Durden put into movies, or like what was done in the film itself. Brilliant add!
Yeah! And at 6:17 is one. I saw like 3 or 4 flashes in this episode and a couple in the second! Very cool!
This was a great one! I was someone who loved this movie and got the wrong message out of it. I did combat sports and mixed martial arts and getting beat up/ learning the discipline of fighting absolutely ending up teaching me the right lessons. There is a reason that truly dangerous people are some of the most kind and patient.
Being physical teaches you understanding in real time it isn't like a lofty promise of "i'll be good" you know how it'll feel to when the pain hits you. Also mastery of one's body is fulfilling venture which is why a lot of kids simply need to play more to get out alot of that energy out. In school I loved getting Gym first period because it set my mind right for the whole day, I as calm, alert and wasn't angry anymore.
It's still a hope of mine that y'all will cover Breaking Bad and discuss the mentality behind fans rooting for Walter White and hating, HATING all characters giving him a hard time for being a literal murderer, drug dealer and horrifically selfish and proud man.
Anna Gunn deserves some sort of reward for what she put up with from fans of the show, I swear to God... I love the show and I love Walter White, but not in such a way that I cannot see why other characters aren't just on board with his shit. It's exactly as realistic as it should be, and in reality, people wouldn't be OK with him choosing a route of crime rather than swallowing his pride and taking a job with great benefits to save his life...
I was and am utterly repelled by Breaking Bad. It's probably because my family is riddled by addicts. I have seen the long term horror created by drugs. I do blame those who make and sell them. They sell poison. One if my litmus tests for people now is to discuss Walter White.
Yeeeeees I was rooting for his wife the entire show. I’m baffled by the people who think she should had just let him do whatever he wanted to. Would they be okay with their partners acting like that?
I also read "Fightclub" as a satire on consumerism and how we hope or believe that buying this or that brand or having an appartment full of furniture etc makes you feel fulfilled. When the protagonist's appartments is blown up, he says that he was "almost complete" after buying all that stuff from Ikea. It's also part of the dramatic struggle we all face growing up and being adults.
We are trying to make meaning of life, give meaning to life, we are faced with existential crisis, may it have been because of traumatic events in our lives, poverty, general disappointment of not having become rockstars, firemen, astronauts...or that we achieved what we wanted and are not happy with it anyway.
Because life turned out different than we thought and hoped it would be.
When we are unhappy, don't see any meaning in our lives, when we feel lost or without direction, consumerism gives us an illusion of happiness, of structure, order, control.
The protagonist at the beginning is basically "shopping" self help groups, hoping to find something he feels is missing in his life and becomes addicted, as he states because it seems to be helping at first, but he cannot be truly authentic, because he has to lie and pretend to be able to participate and be part of these groups. That is why it had to fail ultimately.
Yup, that's what I got out of the movie.
That intro was work of art. It's chef's kiss
So glad you’re covering this, and very happy that it’s a two-parter, since there’s just so much to unpack.
I love the abject discomfort I briefly feel every time Gabe reacts to one of your self-deprecating half-jokes with a dead serious expression and says something like "Why is that? That's really interesting, I wanna know more about it." For a second I want to say, "Come on, let the men be funny in peace", but then I immediately realise that I really want to know about it too.
Huge kudos to Gabe for being secure enough in himself and clear enough in his mind that he can calmly and earnestly ask those questions in those moments. For a lot of people in a lot of situations, that would be considered pretty brave.
Love the movie and I appreciate you guys covering this film. Even as a woman I’m aware of my ego, super ego and id. And I can relate as at times I was don’t show certain parts of myself to protect myself or move forward. Sometimes I feel like I’m drowning. So i’d say the film is what it takes to be human. Not what it takes to be a man.
I read that edition of Fight Club!!! The one where Chuck Palahniuk mentions the fight club at BYU! That was you?! I'm so proud of you, Alan!
The guest was such a welcomed surprise!!
I love that this movie makes you feel it in your skin, your nervous system almost, I think that is what makes it such a classic.
Also, I think Mean Girls is the only other film that addresses aggression and how vital it is to channel it well to grow as a person. Fight Club is to toxic masculinity what Mean Girls is to toxic femininity.
they will never do mean girls , cant be critical to women they'll be cancelled if they do
As an ex-mo, I find the BYU Fight Club story freaking hilariously awesome.
Also, I seem to appreciate your older movie reviews to your newer movie reviews. I like hearing how these movies impacted your younger selves. Maybe that's my mormon background being intrigued because there's so many lessons talking about how movies, music, media influences us and that's something I think Mormonism got right to an extent.
Hey guys, thank you for starting this channel. I went through some stuff recently and if it wasn't for this channel I don't know if I would have bothered getting help. It helps that it is free, I was on a jury.
The idea of the club itself is amazing to me because so many people have this idea of fighting, of wanting to fight as a bad thing, but I see so much artistry and passion in the act of fighting as something that can be good, boxers and mma and everything isn’t dumb or low brow to me , it’s amazing
I have read the book no fewer than five timers, and I've seen the movie, too. The thing is, and I'm a woman saying this, but Tyler is right. UNTILLLLLLLLLLL...he starts getting violent. The actual philosophy of how consumerism has made us all into good little robots, isolated in our fancy boxes, IS RIGHT. I'm an Anarchist, eh, but without the torches and pitchforks. Violence is what got our world into its current mess, and we all know that the master's tools will never bring down the master's house. THINK your way out, LIVE your way out., BE the way out. Don't fight your way out. In the words of Ursula Le Guin: "You cannot make the revolution. You cannot buy the revolution. You can only be the revolution. It is in you, or it is nowhere."
I appreciate anarchy as an expression of nonconformity, but I've only ever seen it show up as as non-cooperation and that annoys me.
Okay, but at some point oppression is too grave a cost. Sometimes violence is needed. I’m reminded of Ghandi telling Jews during the Holocaust that they should willingly die in droves in order to serve as an example of nonviolence. As if that’d accomplish anything. As if that was the true way to make progress. I think that’s downright evil.
@@UltimateKyuubiFox thank you was gonna say this. People cant expect you to not be angry when you constantly throw shit on them. Wealthy people need to pay taxes.
That is not how revolutions work
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl, really, though, what other revolution has stuck to its intended purpose? China, for example, operates as Capitalism in the name of Communism, and Russia is the reverse: Communism in the name of Capitalism. And America is the WORST of the superpowers in some ways: slavery in the name of freedom. It's all in Orwell. They may seem like contradictions, but you have to remember that, as currently practiced, BOTH Capitalism and Communism are Authoritarian, not Anarchic, and those are only three--admittedly very broad--examples.
It’s probably a little weird of me, but I am FASCINATED by the anger and aggression of hypermasculinity. I’m AFAB and grew up having to do a LOT of emotional repression, namely parents who would say ‘your feelings are valid’ but any expression of said feelings were a problem.
Expressing anger is one of those things that was SO discouraged, I ended up blocking out the feeling entirely, and was only able to express it in very violent outbursts that I couldn’t control every year or so. Largely due to my parents, but also the societal pressure on women’s emotional expressions as well. I only started figuring out how to safely FEEL it, let alone express it, around the age of 25.
Looking at the psychology of hypermasculinity/toxic masculinity and seeing how society actively ENCOURAGES anger and violence in men is absolutely buckwild to me. Part of me is so jealous that it blinds me to how this same societal pressure, just placed on different emotions for men, can be just as hurtful for them.
Wow - can’t say I saw this guest coming at all. So awesome seeing Gabe here on the channel, what a crazy collision of my baseball world! Last time I saw Gabe was on The Chris Rose Rotation with Jomboy Media, happy to hear from him again!
I have a very distinct memory of a friend writing a paper about Fight Club and how it was a call for men to be men again and just being like oh no dude, you missed something verrrrrrry important.
1st of all lemme say the Therapy has always been great, but I see you stepping up the Cinema with these epic intro trailers and special side bits. Good job crew!
Also I watched this movie in highschool, we started a fight club, I broke my buddy Red's nose, and immediately realized "I DO NOT WANT THIS"
I was a violent child in Elm & Middle School, but by High School I mellowed and vented my aggression out through games and writing...so i'm just not about the violence but I try to understand its place in the world.
So now I just remember how badly this movie ended for Bob, Angelface and the Narrator and it stopped being "cool" and started getting "real"...
I still love this movie but I worry when I see people romanticizing it or idolizing Tyler Durden 👀😰
I made a very serious decision when starting my transition to never allow toxic masculinity to get a hold on me. I am continuing to embrace the side of me that loves my friends and family, that has no hesitation to comfort the people around me, that wants to leave the world just a tiny bit nicer and happier than I found it. Fight Club is the diametric opposite of who I want to be.
Alan, you weren't alone with creating a fight club at a Christian college. My roommate freshman year introduced me to Fight Club (not that I didn't already know what it was, but just hadn't seen it) and it was sorta a semi-bonding moment for us after my good friend, who was also our roommate, decided to not return for the second semester. Either my roommate had boxing gloves or someone else in our dorm unit had a pair and we started out just a few of us guys going head to head in our dorm floor's common room where everybody that was walking by could see what was going on and it grew from that very quickly. I only fought a few times but the guy I went up against first seemed like a fair match up, quiet guy, mild tempered, but ended up destroying me. After that anytime we walked by each other on campus we always greeted each other with a quick hello or hand gesture, nothing more than that for rest of my time in college. As for the "club" i don't remember how long it lasted but i don't think it went on for too long.
As for the movie it's still a movie that's hard for me to fully understand, for one i have a hard time understanding subtext, but secondly it's about a subject that's still hard to grapple with even in a post-woke culture about toxic masculinity. Hopefully your videos will help with that.
My new Stand, [Post-Woke Culture]!
@@SinHurr woke culture only exist in a declining western world
Which is why I adopted my mindset to the East world
@@tony_5156 woke culture also exist in the East my guy
Don't feel bad Alan, I was in a fight club before this movie came out and I had never heard of the book. It was the mid-90s and my friends and I would gather in my garage, put on boxing gloves, and beat the crap out of each other every Friday evening before heading out to do other stupid things. It was great. We settled beefs. We built confidence. We learned how to take a punch. If you wanted to roll with us, you had to fight. The crazy part was that nobody was made fun of for losing a fight because we all did.
Actually, a lot of people I knew growing up, myself and brother included, having heard of the movie from our parents and watched it for ourselves started or wanted to start a fight club
I appreciate the one frame face additions, especially the one at 13:17. Thank you for another great episode!
I am a simple soul, I see Cinema Therapy posted one hour ago, I drop everything and click on it!❤
Thank you! i absolutely loved blinkist
The editing of this episode is on a whole other level. Great commentary - as always. Thanks for continuing to help spread knowledge, enlighten, and inspire every member who stops by this page.
I feel like I am going to have to get a journal and right my thoughts out as I am watching this. I am a trans girl so till I realized I was this question was always plaguing my mind, always nibbling on my self-esteem, the fear that I would never been seen as a man because I am not strong, because I am careing, because I respect women, because I love art and care more about the art and story of a game than its gameplay and cried when Persona 5 finished. You know the best bit, my parents tried so hard to raise me to be free of it and embrace my traditionally fem traits and tell me about how that didn't make me less of a man, and yet still when a friend of mine took her own life when I was 13 I shut up, refused to deal with it beyond a little bit of crying, a one hour memorial and planting some flowers in the local woods and basically told myself that "it is my job as the oldest male in my friendship group to make sure this never happens again" I gave myself the exact toxicity I had spend my life trying to avoid
Now of course I worry I will never been seen as a women and always as a threat but that is not what this is about.
It's alright hon. I'm a trans person too, and I understand that struggle...it sucks to feel like people aren't going to see you a certain way...
Non of what you said is true or making remote sense if you are a girl that is changing to become a man then that makes you trans man not trans woman and the list of things that you claim makes some one not manly NOBODY considereds them un manly ESPECIALLY what you said about not caring about the story of a video game. That alone made me think that you are lieing
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl They are a trans woman which means that they are were assigned male at birth and transition to a woman.
@@MohamedRamadan-qi4hl I am going to assume that you are not aware of what terms mean rather than being hateful. Trans Female/Girl means I was assigned male at birth but am actually female. And I know in retrospect that those things don't make someone unmanly but in the toxic space I was in between my friend dying and realizing I was trans that didn't matter because all I could think about was how I wouldn't live up to the ideals of toxic masculinity, even though I knew deep down that isn't who I am.
When we are in the dark we can't see how far adrift we are.
@@FREAKOFNATURE-mb8oo thankyou, it is nice to hear that reassurance from someone else
Finally, I was wondering what happened when there was no post on Tuesday. Realized my week just isn't the same with out some cinema therapy 😁
_What?!?_ You got Gabe Kapler on to talk about _Fight Club_ and toxic masculinity?!? 😲🤯🥳🥳🥳🥳🥳
Great production, btw!
Fantastic book, perfect film adaptation and I was sure my brother wasn’t the only boy who started a fight club with his friends. The first 30 seconds of this episode validated that 😂
This came out when I was 16 or 17 and you should not be embarrassed about starting a fight club. We started one too lol. We waited gloves too but we went hard on it lol. I lost an eye brow ring in Midlothian Fight Club 🤕
I'm so glad you covered this movie! I haven't watched it yet, but this video was sadly widely not understood well, where Tyler was the actual hero, which... well, he really isn't!
I still love this video, because it does bring a sort of adrenaline rush into me, but it's good to be actually critical of what's happening. I also recommend the Analyzing Evil episode about Tyler Durden.
Also, Jonathan, I see what you did there around 13:16-13:18 XD
I always liked the idea of Marla being another character that emerged from the protagonist's subconscious.
Like another personality that is supposed to guide him to the light and feeling full, accomplished and loved.
But also, I mean, what other way is there to explain why she wasn't kicked out of the testicles group immediately?
We just covered EFT in my couples and family therapy class and I was actually excited to hear Jonathan talk about the Sour Milk Test lmao
I was really wanting to hear what he was saying 😂😂
These guys have such great chemistry. Stumbled on one video and realized after a couple different videos, I don't even care what the topic is anymore, I'm invested.
PS: Oh! This is a two-parter! Good: I was thinking, "Man, they're getting into a lot of digression with only this much time left..."
And thanks for this, eh? I'd been hoping to see you guys do this for a while, but I wondered whether this movie wasn't too "adult". Happy it's not.
When they talked about Brigham Young University, I immediately knew the place they talked about: Rexburg, Idaho. I still live in Idaho and that is so cool that I am so close to where they went to college and I heard about the “Mormon Boys Starting Fight Club” news story. Made my night, guys!
IM SO STOKED FOR THIS! I always thought "When will they give commentary on Fight Club?" This is one of my favorite movies. You guys have made my Friday off so much better. Thank you!
the editor's so great 13:17
Oooooooh!!!! A new video! *giggles maniacally* great way to start my day. 🥰🥰 love ur vids
I really appreciate the single-frame "splices" y'all added throughout. Good stuff.
I thought the number one rule about Fight Club is to never talk about it 😂
That rule was made to be broken.
Second rule too.
That intro remix of where is my mind was so amazing!
Watching from the UK, love the channel, thank you so much for the efforts taken in putting everything together, (I’m also a therapist with adolescents in the hospital setting).
I Would love to hear your views on the film ‘Promising young women’, by Emerald Fennell.
The extras features, discuss how they focused on casting actors usually associated with the opposite characterisation from their previous films-also really notable.
Your editing, and take on the subject matter is AMAZING
Thanks for watching!
I think my self-harm was loosely based on Fight Club. After seeing the movie, I understood that he was fighting with himself, and I saw the benefits more clearly than the drawbacks because after my traumatic brain injury, I had serious issues with inappropriate violent expression. When I started turning that expression against myself it was "better" in some ways, because I was sure that I wouldn't actually harm myself beyond some singing slaps that brought me back to reality. Trouble is, it's addictive. After I partnered with a narcissist who quickly picked up on how this gave him power over me, it got more intense until I had to actually go get my face x- reassured to be sure I hadn't given myself facial fractures (I had to combine several people that it was self-inflicted, and in retrospect I wish I had understood how he twisted it so I was advising myself for him). I had been out of that relationship and into a healthy one for over a year before I realized he's a narcissist; at the time, it bothered me that I was destroying myself the way Tyler Durden was destroying the narrator whose name I still forget.
I gotta say… Gabe Kepler offered a lot more insight than I expected. Great video!
Not gonna lie. I was not expecting a (spoiler)...
cliffhanger here.
Also, big shout-out to inserting insanely brief flashes of a face into the Alan talking shots. My reflexes are too slow to catch the right exact pause moment. But, so on point for this breakdown of Fight Club.
The first instance my brain briefly registered it as a weird video glitch, then I remembered what movie it is they are talking about. Yeah, they went there. Cool!
I scrolled down all this way just looking for someone to mention the cigarette burns! Very clever.
caught one at 3:17 when he says "pissed" and another at 18:03 when he says "my"
1. The first minute of this video is the best trailer/summary for Fight Club I've ever seen.
2. I've been subconsciously waiting for y'all to cover this film (I'm a HUGE fan) since I first started watching your series, tysm!
Beyond surface level entertainment, this movie appeals to those who feel discontent with themselves/life/society/what have you. The characters that joined the club did so because nothing better or wholesome piqued their interest (career, family, etc). It's captured in Brad Pitt's line "We were taught to believe we'd become rockstars and movie gods but we're not. We're slowly realizing that... and we're very pissed off." An interesting detail in this scene is that the gathered crowd that listened to Tyler are responding with a limp "yeah...", that gradually galvanizes into a more energetic "YEAH" but they're still sheepishly going along with the flow instead of using their own judgment. You didn't hear any objections in that scene. No one said "Wait a minute, I thought we were just having fun, this is crazy. I'm out."
I think this movie is a cautionary tale on herd mentality and that you should never relinquish your agency.
I mean, what happens here is these men were entitled, and then realized that they don't get what they want just because; sometimes other people are luckier, have more experience, or are just better suited to a job.
All the domestic terrorism is basically a temper tantrum. Destroying a toy because they don't get to play with it.
@@belindaluna2067 A child that is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth
African Proverb
@@pll9000 You know who's less embraced by the village than straight white dudes? Gay white dudes. One of which wrote Fight Club and never burned any villages.
Privilege and entitlement is what makes a straight white dude reach for a torch over few or perceived slights while the rest of us try to build campfires so that future generations can feel the warmth that we didn't.
Chuck Palahniuk found an outlet in writing. Sadly, not all do. Said book led to a great movie that millions enjoyed (across genders/races/orientations/etc). I have nothing but respect and admiration for the author.
I hope you find it in your heart to look past your biases. Straight white dudes want to live in peace like most decent people in the world.
I wish you all the best. Peace.
@@pll9000 It's not a bias that straight white dudes have it easiest in America, it's a fact.
The men of Fight Club were meant to be a satire of straight masculinity, agonizing over not getting everything their privilege promised them when the rest of society has a lot more to be outraged about.
Doesn't mean straight white dudes can't have problems, but even the very first bit of the story demonstrates how our narrator doesn't give a shit about other people who are actually suffering, as he is unashamedly using their support groups for his own sake. Boy's a parasite. And fight club is a pity party that a bunch of bloodsuckers throw because they aren't getting fed well enough or have to play sneaky to get their fill.
YESSS! Thank you for taking my suggestion! 🙌 Can't wait to hear you two discuss this film!
Saw frame of Seawright’s face when he says “physical agression” at around 6:18 on Darth. I think the editor is sending us a secret code. Now I’m in the look out any more single frame messages 🔬
The frame flash happened a few times! I'm going to guess we both know why they did this 🤫😉
I slowed down the video to make sure I didn't imagine it. So meta! 😆Excellent work, peeps.
Someone's probably already said it, but that opening sequence is just perfect
One thing I do want to add, about the way he sees his corporate life as emasculating: there's a kind of implied erasure there of the fact that women and non-binary people can be negatively emotionally affected by soulless corporate jobs too. It frames the issue as a masculinity problem, as a male problem, when it's a human problem.
Also, on the topic of testosterone and how it interacts with aggression, can I recommend Testosterone Rex by Cordelia Fine? Really good, really interesting book!
Totally! Capitalism affects us all.
@@R0mbVs That isn't Capitalism that Corpotism. Capitalism is working for yourself, a family business can be fulfilling. A dream job can be amazing. Being a Corpo wage slave is death
Thank you ❤️ 💖💖💖 for all of those who needed to hear it, this topic isn't talked about much, but your channel is so important with taking everyone's issues into the light and normalizing it!
I never thought that Fight Club was about masculinity, toxic or not. I find that it's about losing all meaning and trying to define oneself and one's place in life. Especially because Marla is on the same journey, but doesn't take the same route as Tyler. They're trying to feel again, to connect to someone and the world again. To me, that's what the fighting is about. They want to feel something, even if it's just pain. Tyler wants to show the world that all is vain, all is chaos. This isn't necessarily a male/masculine thing.
Yeah that goes into the whole Nietzsche side of it. Which shows Tyler was right until the violence later on happen. Throwing some punches ain't shit yet dropping Skyscrapers is beyond the rubicon