Agree 100% matchmaker could have a solution to the variety of opponents; even the unranked play pool will only match you against what it considers ‘similar’ decklists. There’s no real way to get around stale matchups currently
The problem with standard is that instead of promoting gameplay and cards that “enable” a healthy back and forth it centers entirely around denying, removing, and controlling with overpowered cheap mana cards which makes people miserable. Or you either have to play insanely fast which wins in 2-3 turns and offers little to no critical thinking and interaction.
Sums it up perfectly. I came back recently and started playing again after several years away. Tried to build a moderate aggro deck like this since that’s what I enjoy playing most. Every turn, I got hit by a Throat, Anoint, Cut Down, Nowhere to Run, etc etc. Don’t have a draw engine, run out of cards, lose to a 6/6 demon with zero drawback backed up by more removal. Incredibly boring and uninteresting.
You’re criticizing the only thing mtg has ever been good at on a game design point of view, which is creating a balance between games with a definite plan and decks with an ability to deny said plan. Death and taxes, mono blue tempo, white swipes, mono black removals has been around forever. God forbid there’s different ways to play the game lol. Only recent issue is powercreeps making the game over if you don’t have an instant answer to it.
I was thinking about secondary queue also, call it Experimental one. And normal one lets rename to Try hard. So game checks lets say top10 decks right now, and most used cards in these decks, and then checks your deck. If you have like 70% of cards used in one of top decks, you go to Try hard queue, if you have less than 50, you go to Experimental. Between 50-70 shuffler decides ;) So the effect would be strongest mono red/blacks or boros auras playing against themselves, and Experimental decks against other Experimental. Right now game really discourages from trying new decks.
I recently posted on Reddit about this. I'm a brewer and some cards and combinations are so oppressive that you have a finite card pool that even makes sense to put into your deck. So you build your deck(s) a certain way: make sure YOU have an oppressive setup. Shit is just so powerful that the vast majority of games are just blowouts. For a person like me who loves brewing a competitive deck that is outside the box, it feels bad even when I win because I have to do the insanely powerful things in order to get there and blow out my opponent. I'm still having fun with my losing brews, but standard isn't what it was even a year ago. It's Yu-Gi-Oh now.
Standard used to be mostly immune from power creep because of rotation. Making rotation take three years and adding more sets has made power creep necessary
My solution has been to play more BO3. Mono red may beat you in the first round but the matchup gets significantly better post board. Same goes for the heavy removal decks as I’ve been sideboarding in protection spells
Even BO3 feels oppressive. Sure, you can sideboard in answers and workarounds but the power level of certain cards and combos makes it not matter too frequently imo. Granted, once my answers get drawn and win the game, it feels fantastic but too often the blowout is unavoidable.
The worst part of matchmaking is how it wrecks the meta, every player has there own. Only faced the Dimir deck with my domain deck. Brewed a quick Leyline of the Void list, boom no more Dimir. You adjust your deck and immediately the next game it keeps you away from the deck you are trying to wreck.
Genuinely I think The Only Way To Improve Standard Is Rotation Go for the throat, sheoldred, cut down, gix, sunfall, jace, swiftspear, archfiend,liliana, djinn, glissa, anoint with affliction etc Soo many problematic cards can just be gone Personally I think that the 3 year rotation isn't really good rn
I've always liked this idea. It's used in so many competitive multiplayer games and as a result, games just feel better. League and DOTA continue to be popular for a variety of reasons and I'm quite sure this is high on that list.
but serious comment, i havent played much arena the past few months, ever since the red fling deck got so strong with the addition of the heartfire hero, and i dont think ill be playing again until standard is more balanced, i spent so much money on arena so they lost a decent customer with me, i assume there is others like me
I thought even just a change to how often you can play the same deck would be an improvement. To your point, if you play against Boros aggro, you get flagged to not queue into that same matchup for the next 7 games. At least to some extent it would provide some diversity so you don’t get mono-red/boros multiple games in a row
My idea to save Standard, at least in digital format, is to introduce a new type of format called "Dropout Standard". Basic idea is that every set time period i.e. weekly a subset of cards (or perhaps sets) are dropped out and become illegal only for that week. Why i think this would work is because it keeps the game fresh and avoids local optima. Currently its so boring because untapped tells you the best deck it's winrate. Dropping out cards temporarily causes a disruption to the meta and would force players to do what players actually want to do: be challenged, use their brain and have to figure out new ways to adapt to a constantly changing environment. Unfortunately the art of deckbuilding has been lost as most people just get decks online (myself included). Take that easy route away from people and you will be amazed by their creativity in finding new solutions and strategies. Standard with Dropout! If neural networks benefit from it to avoid overfitting why not mtga as well :)
They could do it like they do with brawl and the more removal you have the higher your deck power so matchmaker puts you up against similar powered decks.
Started getting back into MTG after being away for several years. Been playing a bunch of standard. Issue I’ve noticed is just way too much extremely good cheap removal available - Go for the Throat, Cut Down, Anoint, Torch, Nowhere to Run, etc etc. Trying to play any kind of moderate aggro deck with creatures mana valued at 1-3 is just pointless, they have an answer for everything every turn. And then they can find more answers with Annex, Beanstalk, etc. Really boring and uninteresting.
There is literally nothing wrong with standard, or any other format. The problem IS with the rigged matchmaker, and the terrible shuffler. And let me tell you this right now: THEY WILL NEVER going to change that. This game could be developed to become the best digital mtg game the world have ever seen, if they would really make some basic effort. There is no 4 player commander, there no chat menu or a lobby to interact socially , the visual flare on new cards are basically nonexistent(check out some cool old mythic cards...), explorer is STILL missing a bunch of (2k+)pioneer cards, I could go on ad infinite. This game is rotting on its legs for years now, because WoTC knows exactly that all those shitty skins and the increased frequency of new sets will generate enogh money to be profitable on the long run. This game is going nowhere, and banning a few card or making new format be nothing but a cheap bandaid on patient with cancer.
Ranked opponents should be based on rank only. Stop the hand holding. That will solve all the problems. If mono red is dominant and 30% of players start playing the same deck, they will get matched against each other more often and their win rate go down. Also the other 60% of players will tweak their deck to play against the dominant deck. It would all happen naturally. Wizards tries to micro manage ranked to encourage people to spend more money.
I hate tier 1 decks in Casual play. It's disgusting. Take that crap to the ladder and don't give me they need to practice with it before playing ladder. Mythic means nothing. Losing a few starts while you get the hang of the deck means nothing.
Rather than bans, I think simply just adding back in "Return to Nature", a 1G instant common that destroys all enchantments solves a lot of problems. It makes Sheltered by Ghosts, Beanstalk, Overlords, and all other enchantment draw engines worse. (It doesn't address the broken red aggro mouse combo, that probably still needs a ban, as I suspect it is still causing a lot of turn 3 "non-games")
The issue with MTG is that it’s a game of 60% win rates. That’s how it’s made to be fair and balanced. There will always be cards the “annoy” people. If a card didn’t inconvenience you it would be in your bulk box. No one wants to lose, but good players lose 40% of the time.
It's not 60%. Wotc wants every deck in arena to have 50/50 which is still not correct given that arena is based on paper magic tournaments, which are designed to go 100%. The problem is good players are MADE to lose and it's a night a day difference between arena and paper.
Agree 100% matchmaker could have a solution to the variety of opponents; even the unranked play pool will only match you against what it considers ‘similar’ decklists. There’s no real way to get around stale matchups currently
The problem with standard is that instead of promoting gameplay and cards that “enable” a healthy back and forth it centers entirely around denying, removing, and controlling with overpowered cheap mana cards which makes people miserable. Or you either have to play insanely fast which wins in 2-3 turns and offers little to no critical thinking and interaction.
And too many “remove this immediately or lose the game” cards. That type of card should be 6-8 mana, not 2-3.
Sums it up perfectly. I came back recently and started playing again after several years away. Tried to build a moderate aggro deck like this since that’s what I enjoy playing most. Every turn, I got hit by a Throat, Anoint, Cut Down, Nowhere to Run, etc etc. Don’t have a draw engine, run out of cards, lose to a 6/6 demon with zero drawback backed up by more removal. Incredibly boring and uninteresting.
You’re criticizing the only thing mtg has ever been good at on a game design point of view, which is creating a balance between games with a definite plan and decks with an ability to deny said plan. Death and taxes, mono blue tempo, white swipes, mono black removals has been around forever. God forbid there’s different ways to play the game lol. Only recent issue is powercreeps making the game over if you don’t have an instant answer to it.
I was thinking about secondary queue also, call it Experimental one. And normal one lets rename to Try hard.
So game checks lets say top10 decks right now, and most used cards in these decks, and then checks your deck. If you have like 70% of cards used in one of top decks, you go to Try hard queue, if you have less than 50, you go to Experimental. Between 50-70 shuffler decides ;)
So the effect would be strongest mono red/blacks or boros auras playing against themselves, and Experimental decks against other Experimental.
Right now game really discourages from trying new decks.
The purpose of the matchmaker is to make players want to buy gems, not to be fair.
Power creep is a problem. Every card seems like an immediate must answer threat.
I recently posted on Reddit about this.
I'm a brewer and some cards and combinations are so oppressive that you have a finite card pool that even makes sense to put into your deck. So you build your deck(s) a certain way: make sure YOU have an oppressive setup. Shit is just so powerful that the vast majority of games are just blowouts. For a person like me who loves brewing a competitive deck that is outside the box, it feels bad even when I win because I have to do the insanely powerful things in order to get there and blow out my opponent.
I'm still having fun with my losing brews, but standard isn't what it was even a year ago. It's Yu-Gi-Oh now.
Standard used to be mostly immune from power creep because of rotation. Making rotation take three years and adding more sets has made power creep necessary
My solution has been to play more BO3. Mono red may beat you in the first round but the matchup gets significantly better post board. Same goes for the heavy removal decks as I’ve been sideboarding in protection spells
Even BO3 feels oppressive. Sure, you can sideboard in answers and workarounds but the power level of certain cards and combos makes it not matter too frequently imo.
Granted, once my answers get drawn and win the game, it feels fantastic but too often the blowout is unavoidable.
what SB options would u guys recommend? how about invasion of gobakhan?
The worst part of matchmaking is how it wrecks the meta, every player has there own. Only faced the Dimir deck with my domain deck. Brewed a quick Leyline of the Void list, boom no more Dimir. You adjust your deck and immediately the next game it keeps you away from the deck you are trying to wreck.
Genuinely I think The Only Way To Improve Standard Is Rotation
Go for the throat, sheoldred, cut down, gix, sunfall, jace, swiftspear, archfiend,liliana, djinn, glissa, anoint with affliction etc
Soo many problematic cards can just be gone
Personally I think that the 3 year rotation isn't really good rn
Everything from Dominaria to Phyreia is going to rotate out this September
A queue where you can ban up to 3 cards before launching a game. Let the community decide what they want or not.
I've always liked this idea. It's used in so many competitive multiplayer games and as a result, games just feel better. League and DOTA continue to be popular for a variety of reasons and I'm quite sure this is high on that list.
awful game design take
but serious comment, i havent played much arena the past few months, ever since the red fling deck got so strong with the addition of the heartfire hero, and i dont think ill be playing again until standard is more balanced, i spent so much money on arena so they lost a decent customer with me, i assume there is others like me
I'm so close to quitting myself.
I thought even just a change to how often you can play the same deck would be an improvement. To your point, if you play against Boros aggro, you get flagged to not queue into that same matchup for the next 7 games. At least to some extent it would provide some diversity so you don’t get mono-red/boros multiple games in a row
My idea to save Standard, at least in digital format, is to introduce a new type of format called "Dropout Standard".
Basic idea is that every set time period i.e. weekly a subset of cards (or perhaps sets) are dropped out and become illegal only for that week.
Why i think this would work is because it keeps the game fresh and avoids local optima. Currently its so boring because untapped tells you the best deck it's winrate. Dropping out cards temporarily causes a disruption to the meta and would force players to do what players actually want to do: be challenged, use their brain and have to figure out new ways to adapt to a constantly changing environment.
Unfortunately the art of deckbuilding has been lost as most people just get decks online (myself included). Take that easy route away from people and you will be amazed by their creativity in finding new solutions and strategies.
Standard with Dropout! If neural networks benefit from it to avoid overfitting why not mtga as well :)
lol I hate those players too !!
Barber 👀👀👀
Personally I don't play BO1 on the ladder anymore, it's either play queue or BO3. I would like to see more BO3 content on the channel
They could do it like they do with brawl and the more removal you have the higher your deck power so matchmaker puts you up against similar powered decks.
Sweet wins, I love when creators show off unused cards.
Bro can never go back to his barber now
Solid!
Started getting back into MTG after being away for several years. Been playing a bunch of standard. Issue I’ve noticed is just way too much extremely good cheap removal available - Go for the Throat, Cut Down, Anoint, Torch, Nowhere to Run, etc etc. Trying to play any kind of moderate aggro deck with creatures mana valued at 1-3 is just pointless, they have an answer for everything every turn. And then they can find more answers with Annex, Beanstalk, etc. Really boring and uninteresting.
Sytze acting like that in mythic, what an actual clown. Those are the players that need the triple rope treatment.
"Ser-ah-phic" Steed.
Aaaaand OF COURSE it loses to Black...
There is literally nothing wrong with standard, or any other format. The problem IS with the rigged matchmaker, and the terrible shuffler. And let me tell you this right now: THEY WILL NEVER going to change that. This game could be developed to become the best digital mtg game the world have ever seen, if they would really make some basic effort. There is no 4 player commander, there no chat menu or a lobby to interact socially , the visual flare on new cards are basically nonexistent(check out some cool old mythic cards...), explorer is STILL missing a bunch of (2k+)pioneer cards, I could go on ad infinite. This game is rotting on its legs for years now, because WoTC knows exactly that all those shitty skins and the increased frequency of new sets will generate enogh money to be profitable on the long run. This game is going nowhere, and banning a few card or making new format be nothing but a cheap bandaid on patient with cancer.
Nature of Bo1 will always favor fast Aggro decks. I’ve had more satisfaction in Bo3, but not everyone has time for that
Ranked opponents should be based on rank only. Stop the hand holding. That will solve all the problems. If mono red is dominant and 30% of players start playing the same deck, they will get matched against each other more often and their win rate go down. Also the other 60% of players will tweak their deck to play against the dominant deck. It would all happen naturally. Wizards tries to micro manage ranked to encourage people to spend more money.
Arena only rewarding wins also changes what decks people play
There is also the biggest problem of who run first
I hate tier 1 decks in Casual play. It's disgusting. Take that crap to the ladder and don't give me they need to practice with it before playing ladder. Mythic means nothing. Losing a few starts while you get the hang of the deck means nothing.
Sytze, 1v1. WYA? 👀
Sheltered by ghosts is disgusting. 2 mana = buff, buff, buff and remove.
it's called the "play queue"
Plenty of Enchantment hate in the game.
i have the perfect solution, just make all the mono red players only ever match against other mono red players
Rather than bans, I think simply just adding back in "Return to Nature", a 1G instant common that destroys all enchantments solves a lot of problems.
It makes Sheltered by Ghosts, Beanstalk, Overlords, and all other enchantment draw engines worse.
(It doesn't address the broken red aggro mouse combo, that probably still needs a ban, as I suspect it is still causing a lot of turn 3 "non-games")
This fixes nothing. so what everyone just runs green and 4 of this magical enchantment wipe? 😅😅😅
Must be crazy trying to create a brand new busted deck everyday and still make Mythic to seem legit.
I think you mean to play draft.
The issue with MTG is that it’s a game of 60% win rates. That’s how it’s made to be fair and balanced. There will always be cards the “annoy” people. If a card didn’t inconvenience you it would be in your bulk box. No one wants to lose, but good players lose 40% of the time.
Don’t forget the shuffler basically deciding you’ll lose by either being stuck on 2-3 lands or draw 9.
It's not 60%. Wotc wants every deck in arena to have 50/50 which is still not correct given that arena is based on paper magic tournaments, which are designed to go 100%. The problem is good players are MADE to lose and it's a night a day difference between arena and paper.