It won't be patched out. The reason that the productivity cap is exactly 300% is for this reason. If it were greater than 300% then this loop would result in a net gain of materials (provided recyclers remain at 25% return). This is the intended end-game result IMO.
It's not the high productivity that's broken, it's that you can get asteroids for free and then upcycle with 80% recovery (WITHOUT any productivity bonuses) and then build things from legendary asteroids. BUT... I made a quick space platform to test this, using 15 crushers to upcycle asteroid chunks. Using 30 quality modules of quality level 1/2/3/4/5, I got 12/25/28/67/113 legendary asteroids per hour. It takes maybe 300 asteroid chunks to make a quality module 3, so you can use the legendary quality modules to make more legendary quality modules with a doubling time of... tens of hours, which is a leisurely pace by Factorio standards. Not so broken after all, I guess.
No need to patch it out; not really broken. The investment in research and infrastructure is immense for EACH resource you want to make legendary. He acts like the asteroid coal ship is broken... but try and make that BP. There is half a megabase worth resources JUST in modules for that ship. Is awesome to see what can be done tho; thank you Nilaus!
Right? This is very endgame stuff. It might even be intentional game design for getting legendary stuff. It is extremely powerful, but he's on episode 41 of the series, its not like this is something you can do to skip the game. It will not work without massive investment as you said.
I disagree. This really should be patched out. For those players that plan to play the game on after game completion. This basicaly renders all other quality builds obsolete. Why bother upscaling and recycling, when you can just build the majority of items strait at legendary from unlimited base legendary materials. Imo if this stays, legendary is not going to feel legendary at all. As getting to stage of building a ship to farm legendary coal is inevitable if you play the game long enough, whether it takes you 50 hours or 200, you will get there.
@MrClewsy1988 that is a fair point, but if you want the challenge, you can just chose not to build the platform. Its a singleplayer game, you're only competing against yourself.
no matter how high the investment cost now you have infinite legendary resources. for those of us who want to play after the point where you can make this investment the game just becomes trivial
You can do the same with cast concrete. Use legendary calcite with lava to get molten iron and legendary stone, which you can use to make legendary bricks that can then be used to make legendary concrete which can be recycled into legendary iron ore and bricks.
Is this not worse because the advantage of the LDS cycling is that it is essentially free with sufficient plastic productivity? But with casted concrete, you still need to get additional stone bricks (via calcite) because there is no stone productivity upgrade?
Another way would be to cast pipes, you drop everything except the legendary ones, get legendary iron back, when you recycle the legendary underground pipes and do the pipes back in the production... :) i have to test it... Ah no productivity....
You don't have the productivity bonuses so you will not get the same return. The LDS is particularly good because you can pretty easily get +300% productivity on both plastic and LDS. The calcite is absolutely for legendary stone and concrete, but I don't know if, after the recycling losses, it would be a good way to get iron versus asteroids.
but is it really broken? maybe by the end-game it should be all legendary, if you are willing to make all the required infrastructure... it becomes all legendary everything, easily by end-game?
@@Tomiisomaa After requiring a couple million science, probably a few hours of gambling to get the starter modules/infrastructure to do it, including probably hundreds of rocket launches building the farming platforms. This is well beyond what anyone would need to beat the game. Who cares? Let people who want to go this far have fun. It isn't a competitive game :D
@@TomiisomaaNot exactly? Productivity is a baseline mechanic in the game which is duping, that the devs have clearly been ok with for years now. This is a quality bypass rather than duping as the devs didn't implement a quality fluid system. The balance for this is to remove the guarantee for legendary out of fluid involved crafts or do have a fluid refinement system that assigns a purity % of the fluid that correlates with quality tiers, and then you have to feed your foundries with a certain % threshold of purity to guarantee the quality output
@@Akeruyri and what is this game about? building a factory, then making it bigger and bigger. With this, you wont need to. the factory is finally finished :)
Tldr, It's possible to transform regular to legendary resources at 0 cost without duping from plastic. You could 100% build a similar loop that just upcycles basic to legendary through the infinite research products even without the duping from plastic. And that would still just take lava so nothing really changes. I'm not even sure it would require more infrastructure considering what was spent on building the space platform for collection. Regular production of Blue circuits or LDS -> a loop that recycles with +300% prod instead using quality modules in it. To be fair it would require an extra amount of research and probably a bigger infrastructure cost until you have enough to fill them exclusively with quality modules.
There's no reason to patch it out. A cap on 4x productivity means you can't get a net positive on resources and that's all that matters. This is your reward for a massive investment into getting legendary productivity modules and a lot of productivity research. Since lava is free, you could just make a massive array producing copper and steel and putting it through a traditional upcycling process. The "LDS shuffle" is just more compact but doesn't give you anything you didn't already have.
It does not force u to farm legendary copper ores(advanced.processing sucks) and smelt legendary iron plates to get steel. So it gives you sth without u spending or losing anything
7 годин тому+2
@@mertserimer6928 you still have to do it for tungsten, holmium, carbon fibre... Forcing everything to use the same technique would be just boring.
I don't like the thinking that because something is too good it should be nerfed. especially in a single player game where you have a choice to use a feature or not.
Factorio was never balanced. With a functionally unlimited amount of space and resources the only real limit towards production was processing power and time. Space age simply speeded up the process, nothing more nothing less.
Yeah, soon as I saw yesterday's video I had the idea. I have to retract my comment from yesterday about a fix to this and +1 to: is it really broken. Why would they include the researches to get huge production bonuses if they didn't want those items to become ridiculously cheap in late-endgame. It feels as through the late-endgame is legendary everything. Great series, thanks!
11:45, why are you still saying 1 coal becomes 3.2 steel? you just explained that it keeps running without adding more coal. you now produce steel by tossing copper plate into the lava pool (when copper backs up)
I'm not complaining but y'all fell for the engagement bait. Yeah it's not broken. If you're playing a single player game after the 1000 hour anything is fine to cater to ease. You've spent all this time and resources to get here, you deserve it lol
I am flabberghasted. Until yesterday I had no idea this was possible. And I totally love it! I suppose they could cap productivity at 290 to have a least a little bit of input going. But given the amount of time and effort to get to this point, I think it's just a really neat reward to keep it this way. I was screaming at the quality modules in the POC build, glad to see they didnt make it in the final build. As for your plan with legendary calcite. Looking in factoriopedia it's either legendary cliff explosives, or legendary shells. But no clue why that would be awesome apart from a flex. So it has to be the legendary stone you get out of foundries when consuming lava? But then what? Legendary foundations? Really curious to see where that's heading!
From response of @nullcypher: "You can do the same with cast concrete. Use legendary calcite with lava to get molten iron and legendary stone, which you can use to make legendary bricks that can then be used to make legendary concrete which can be recycled into legendary iron ore and bricks." Legendary concrete is made for legendary bricks and molten iron
With legendary calcite -> legendary stone bricks we're so close to making a full Nauvis legendary science build. Only missing legendary stone for prod science packs and I'm not seeing a way to get it reliably. That's prob not worth it anyway. Edit: Nvm it's legendary calcite -> legendary stone so we do have everything needed. Should be able to make a legendary mall now for chem plants, refineries, inserters, assemblers, pumpjacks....Everything from Nauvis straight to legendary with no upcycling.
7 годин тому
Legendary bricks, legendary stone, legendary concrete (both kinds). All of them useful for a bunch of legendary buildings.
I'm not sure it's going to be patched out. Instead they capped productivity at 300%. Because that's the point where you break even, if you could get to 310% you could profit on plastic recycling LDS.
To be honest, why should they patch it? lets summarize: Through means of engineering and high end science you achieved to convert raw electric energy into matter.
It's hard to me imagine how can they patch it without breaking at least one new feature. Unless they start considering liquid quality, the only way they can fix it is to remove foundry special recipes, which would suck, or nerf productivity, which would suck. Even blocking quality from recycling asteroids will make it harder to get, but the LDS loop will always be there. Maybe I'm missing obvious solution here?
they could make LDS and processing units self recycling
20 годин тому
Quality for liquids seems like an obvious fix to this. Not sure how hard that is to implement, but it's pretty much the same consideration as separate liquids, so..
they could make it so that foundry and assembler lds recipes dont make the same entity, so when xou recycle a foundry lds you only get the plastic out, but the asembler ones still spit out all 3. but this is so insanely end game that this is the least of what you deserve at this stage of the game
@@lolkingftw4804 Once they said in FFF that they don't want to make different recipes making same thing because you cannot handle recycling it. But then I thought about different solution you reminded me of- probabilistic recycling. Game would count how many items were produced by each recipe, probably per planet, and then when recycled it could recycle by probability. You could teleport items with that, so you should count it per planet and maybe handle transfer of items between planets.
If they really wanted to "fix" it..... Basically put a pollution mechanic back on Volcans. Put some kind of threshold where once production reaches a certain point, your base emits seismic waves that attract huge (legendary?) demolishers that want to stop all the loud machines ^>^. Respect the shai-hulud! Or, ya know, let a non-competitive (mostly)singleplayer game have a breaking point with a hundred+ hours of playtime and let modders deal with making things more difficult. Worked for Skyrim.
I kind of don't get why you needed the coal, though. With 300% productivity, you consume 5 plastic to output 4 LDS, which returns 1 plastic and a 25% chance for another one. I.e. on average you get back all 5 plastic. You only need the starting plastic and an additional handful to compensate for bad luck. You can get that legendary plastic from the red or blue circuit farms for almost no cost.
7 годин тому+1
Legendary plastic is still useful for legendary circuits. The way he said it was confusing.
I dont see a need to fix this? by the point you have this online, you are way past the point of any challenge in the game sans "number go up" You've gotten every research, have basically infinite sized mines you can easily grab, and can honestly get legendary whatever by simply putting quality modules and tossing any failed upgrade to the lava and you still wont have a problem. Yea, you can get anything you want legendary. You just need to first beat the game many times over.
It's not broken, it's the reward for having gotten to the point where you can build the setups required to actually do this. It's the logical end result of productivity, speed and quality. Still limited by throughput, which is the only real there has ever been in a game with infinite maps providing infinite resources. It's simpler, sure... but the folks who push on to this are probably going to be almost exclusively the megabase builders, so in effect, this is just the point where they have finally finished building the factory that will build their real factory.
I assume they knew there were positive feedback loops. In FFF they talked about how it would become positive with any productivity over 300% and still they added a bunch of new endless research that allow exactly that.
The 300% cap is specifically meant to prevent positive loops and make it so the best possibility is neutral. That said, alternate recipes that recycle to a superset of their solid ingredients let you make net positive loops anyways. The only two recipes I'm aware of that have this are casting low density structure, and rocket fuel from ammonia (and legendary rocket or solid fuel isn't really that useful all things considered).
Ahh, I didn't realize those researches were capped. So only truly busted for these fluid recipes. The rest of them though you can eventually upcycle anything in their production tree to legendary without waste so not useless, just not crazy like this.
@@bad_manbot Blue circuits can becomes lossless with enough prod research, but unlike LDS or rocket fuel, it can't become net _positive,_ so you can't just skip all of the intermediate qualities and directly print legendary materials.
I don't think it is broken, you are working with Legendary item, with very high productivity research. Takes a lot to get there, which at that point its irrelevant, would be broken if it was like possible to do this with rare or uncommon items with barely any producitiviry
Ways to limit this in a functional way: 1. Require calcite on all foundry production that's at a ratio equivalent to iron/copper/coal saved with making molten iron/copper. This also means if you're making quality steel, gears, lds, etc. then you need higher quality calcite. 2. Recyclers also have a chance to downgrade the output of quality input products. This chance is reduced with quality mods but is never zero. 3. Machines that can only be built on specific planets have their bonuses limited if used off that planet.
If it's near zero it doesn't end up mattering all that much, considering to get to this point you already need what he just built in the last episode to start it up.
@NukeMarine I mean I don't see the point of limiting it in the first place because in order to do this you need to have visited every planet, you need to have unlocked legendary quality and you need god knows how many levels of productivity research.
Honestly, they should probably add some quality modifers to recipes. You'd then apply that to asteroid conversion, LDS, and other recipes that REALLY should not be producing legendary resources in quantity.
Lava refining for high quality lava would be a interesting way to make the cost a little more realistic for that stage of the game. Thats the only step that seems too easy.
300% productivity is the limit, and it's a nice and round 4x multiplier, and it was deliberate to match the 25% recycler, designed such that once you reach the limit, you can the intermediate goods that have prod research into legendary for no extra cost. (Blue chips, Plastic, LDS), which you then recycle to get legendary green and red circuits, copper, steel. Legendary sulfur, iron, are easily obtainable as well. Using blue chips, you can input normal materials and create legendary copper, iron, and plastic outputs at no cost besides sulfuric acid using blue-chip upcycler. They would have made the prod limit smaller if they didn't want this to happen. Legendary stone I thought would be impossible without just doing a brute force upcyler and wasting 90% of the input. But foundries consume calcite and make stone, so all you need is legendary calcite, which comes from the spaceship (of course that's why you have it, duh) And with it you make legendary concrete with all that iron you're making anyways so that you get legendary bricks as well without needing to waste your precious legendary stone. Splits out some iron ore, but concrete to iron ore ratio is so bad and small relative to your actual iron needs that you're better off just junking it.
I can see legendary science packs. Just feed it your build. Thats crazy. Kudos again. Did you plan that on beginning? I miss that i don't have time to watch your streams it used to be a lot of fun.
every item in the game with a productivity research that can also be recycled will eventually no matter what be possible to infinitely loop. just the nature of 10% extra per level and 25% ROI when recycled. Eventually you just get more than it costs and can print "free things"
I’m sad you skipped the design process of the LDS recycler. It’s a brand new concept (cycling feeder plastic). So much of Factorio is solved or just a stamp of “x inputs, y output” it’s not very often we get to be a part of a brand new type of production.
That wasn't actually intentional. It just ended up that way in his quick-and-dirty proof of concept build. In the proper build toward the end of the video the recyclers all carry speed modules.
I'm really curious about the calcite, too. The only thing I can think of off hand is using the calcite to craft legendary molten iron or copper and just dumping the iron/copper to get the legendary stone byproduct as your end goal.
@@jaspervaneck3258 Yeah, that's what I mean. The recipe is 'legendary molten iron' but you'd just get the legendary stone, for legendary stone bricks/concrete/etc and the related buildings made from it
I guess the only thing that bothers me about this is that it's meta and there really isn't a better way to approach it. That's math though. There will always be a best and most optimal way. It's my own fault for watching videos that are ahead of my playthrough, but now I know that my future is simply creating some version of the asteroid LDS shuffle.
Would a good patch for it be just making it plastic negative? Meaning say it requires 24 Plastic to make and only recycles to 5 with 300% equating to 20 Plastic, and therefore needs supplemental plastic and coal? The amounts could be tweaked, I just used 24 and 20 to demonstrate the net negative principle.
How do you get legendary coal? Just by using a legendary miner, you get 100% legendary coal output, or do you put quality modules in a drill and filter out the legendary coal?
Last episode was space platforms doing upcycling on asteroid chunks to create legendary chunks which create legendary carbon and sulfur to convert to legendary coal.
my jaw droppes cause of the productivity you get from legendary stuff.. IS INSANNNNEEE!! 1 coal 8 bars of plastic.. jezus f christ!!! i need to play it
Why are you asking them to fix it? Your entire production line is legendary this is absolutely expected and the type of return you would expect after all the investment
Definitely needs a patch. Bypassing all the quality mechanics in the game and turning lava straight into legendary copper and steel with no real cost trivializes all other methods of getting this resources.
I dont get the "Do it now, because they will patch it , its too good". I dont see anyhting broken nor OP. More like clickbait: "We brake the game!!!!!1111oneeleven" (...when the game is already finished and everything is researched). I guess "superlateendgame-mechanic for legendary stuff" doesnt net the same amount of viewers like the "tweaked" title. Dissappointed.
Does the Recycler productivity research interact with this loop? If you could get that to level 30+ would you get a net gain. I don't see this being patched though, it's a very late game thing. If someone has invested the time to get the quality prod modules and the research, then they have 'earned' the ability to build everything at legendary
Aren't speed modules decrease quality of products in recyclers? Also can't you just recycle steel for iron? (still didn't get to recyclers part in my save)
Reposting from the last video: As a chemist, I have a problem with "legendary elements". Sulphur is sulphur wherever you find it in the universe (and however you spell it, btw), and the same for carbon, iron, copper and holmium. I can cope with the concept of Legendary Steel - it's some fantastic alloy not yet invented, and legendary machines and intermediates, but elements are by definition elementary. As a Factorio player, however, this is just wonderful!
one just simply need 1 legendary coal then.. After that one can produce infinite legendary plastic then low densty then returned as copper+steel which can be recyled as legendary again.. nice indeed.
The recycling is random chance based though, so while it’s plastic neutral on average there’s nothing stopping it from having a period of time where it outputs less plastic than expected and the whole thing grinds to a halt. That’s why you need to have the ability to replenish it with additional legendary plastic.
Just raise the plastic amount for the foundry LDS recipe... really that's nothing hard to nerf ! (recycler use the Assemblers LDS recipe to retrieve raw materials)
am I not understanding something about the lds shuffle? you only need the coal to jump start it, once you have enough plastic coming back, it feeds itself.
It feeds itself on average, but it’s RNG-based. You want to have extra on standby to replenish whenever you go through a plastic-light period of recycling, otherwise the whole thing dries up. When you are in a plastic-rich period you just put it in a buffer. But in general yes, you get way more than the numbers Nilaus quoted back per piece of coal.
no. recycling does not undo smelting or chemical reactions. besides he already has legendary iron ore to make the plates so it would be redundant if so.
I strongly disagree, they should not patch it reaching this point of the game took a long and hard time. breaking the game at the point feels rewarding more than anything and you have the choice to ignore it
17:34 "Ungodly amount of time" == 36% of the duration of Plastic Bar Productivity 10 research... always supposing that Nilaus didn't revert to autosaves during the design process!
Considering the devs added the 300% limit to productivity, I think they fully expected shenanigans like this to be possible.
It won't be patched out. The reason that the productivity cap is exactly 300% is for this reason. If it were greater than 300% then this loop would result in a net gain of materials (provided recyclers remain at 25% return). This is the intended end-game result IMO.
It's not the high productivity that's broken, it's that you can get asteroids for free and then upcycle with 80% recovery (WITHOUT any productivity bonuses) and then build things from legendary asteroids. BUT...
I made a quick space platform to test this, using 15 crushers to upcycle asteroid chunks. Using 30 quality modules of quality level 1/2/3/4/5, I got 12/25/28/67/113 legendary asteroids per hour. It takes maybe 300 asteroid chunks to make a quality module 3, so you can use the legendary quality modules to make more legendary quality modules with a doubling time of... tens of hours, which is a leisurely pace by Factorio standards. Not so broken after all, I guess.
@@Callanthekiter also, endgame should be satisfying, right?
@@Callanthekiter You can get lava for free, you can get resources for free with a mine, you can get everything with investment from other things.
No need to patch it out; not really broken.
The investment in research and infrastructure is immense for EACH resource you want to make legendary.
He acts like the asteroid coal ship is broken... but try and make that BP.
There is half a megabase worth resources JUST in modules for that ship.
Is awesome to see what can be done tho; thank you Nilaus!
Right? This is very endgame stuff. It might even be intentional game design for getting legendary stuff. It is extremely powerful, but he's on episode 41 of the series, its not like this is something you can do to skip the game. It will not work without massive investment as you said.
I disagree. This really should be patched out. For those players that plan to play the game on after game completion. This basicaly renders all other quality builds obsolete. Why bother upscaling and recycling, when you can just build the majority of items strait at legendary from unlimited base legendary materials. Imo if this stays, legendary is not going to feel legendary at all. As getting to stage of building a ship to farm legendary coal is inevitable if you play the game long enough, whether it takes you 50 hours or 200, you will get there.
@MrClewsy1988 that is a fair point, but if you want the challenge, you can just chose not to build the platform. Its a singleplayer game, you're only competing against yourself.
no matter how high the investment cost now you have infinite legendary resources. for those of us who want to play after the point where you can make this investment the game just becomes trivial
@@wilmer4421 Just don't do it then?
You can do the same with cast concrete. Use legendary calcite with lava to get molten iron and legendary stone, which you can use to make legendary bricks that can then be used to make legendary concrete which can be recycled into legendary iron ore and bricks.
Yep, then he can change his iron ore ship to a calcite ship and have 2 calcite ships
Is this not worse because the advantage of the LDS cycling is that it is essentially free with sufficient plastic productivity? But with casted concrete, you still need to get additional stone bricks (via calcite) because there is no stone productivity upgrade?
Another way would be to cast pipes, you drop everything except the legendary ones, get legendary iron back, when you recycle the legendary underground pipes and do the pipes back in the production... :)
i have to test it... Ah no productivity....
He will use molten copper. Iron is 1 calcite to 10 stone. Coper is 1 to 15 :) With that stone you can build everything as legendary
You don't have the productivity bonuses so you will not get the same return. The LDS is particularly good because you can pretty easily get +300% productivity on both plastic and LDS.
The calcite is absolutely for legendary stone and concrete, but I don't know if, after the recycling losses, it would be a good way to get iron versus asteroids.
but is it really broken? maybe by the end-game it should be all legendary, if you are willing to make all the required infrastructure... it becomes all legendary everything, easily by end-game?
yup, especially given how UPS heavy the game gets in the endgame even without megabasing.
this is basically duping
@@Tomiisomaa After requiring a couple million science, probably a few hours of gambling to get the starter modules/infrastructure to do it, including probably hundreds of rocket launches building the farming platforms. This is well beyond what anyone would need to beat the game. Who cares? Let people who want to go this far have fun. It isn't a competitive game :D
@@TomiisomaaNot exactly? Productivity is a baseline mechanic in the game which is duping, that the devs have clearly been ok with for years now. This is a quality bypass rather than duping as the devs didn't implement a quality fluid system.
The balance for this is to remove the guarantee for legendary out of fluid involved crafts or do have a fluid refinement system that assigns a purity % of the fluid that correlates with quality tiers, and then you have to feed your foundries with a certain % threshold of purity to guarantee the quality output
@@Akeruyri and what is this game about? building a factory, then making it bigger and bigger. With this, you wont need to. the factory is finally finished :)
You have used quality modules for the recyclers of legendary LDS. It is already legendary. Put other nice modules in there :D
@@pedroalvarezgarcia5776 that was only the POC build. The real build later in the vid didn't have those.
If the devs didn't intend for this to be the way to end-game legendary items, I'd be shocked.
Tldr, It's possible to transform regular to legendary resources at 0 cost without duping from plastic.
You could 100% build a similar loop that just upcycles basic to legendary through the infinite research products even without the duping from plastic. And that would still just take lava so nothing really changes. I'm not even sure it would require more infrastructure considering what was spent on building the space platform for collection. Regular production of Blue circuits or LDS -> a loop that recycles with +300% prod instead using quality modules in it. To be fair it would require an extra amount of research and probably a bigger infrastructure cost until you have enough to fill them exclusively with quality modules.
There's no reason to patch it out. A cap on 4x productivity means you can't get a net positive on resources and that's all that matters. This is your reward for a massive investment into getting legendary productivity modules and a lot of productivity research. Since lava is free, you could just make a massive array producing copper and steel and putting it through a traditional upcycling process. The "LDS shuffle" is just more compact but doesn't give you anything you didn't already have.
It does not force u to farm legendary copper ores(advanced.processing sucks) and smelt legendary iron plates to get steel. So it gives you sth without u spending or losing anything
@@mertserimer6928 you still have to do it for tungsten, holmium, carbon fibre... Forcing everything to use the same technique would be just boring.
No need to fix it i think? it takes many many hours to get to this point, and it gives a nice goal to aim for
Hold up I gotta finish the dosh video first
Oh been waiting for his monotone frustrated voice to release a video.
@@crightbrayons8416 This one he clearly tried to sound positive and uplifting.
For purely gratuity's sake, you ought to make entirely legendary belts and inserters for this part of the factory. Gold plated everything.
Seeing the title i was like "oh no"
But as soon as you placed the cryo plant i knew it was over
10:54 I dont want for this to be fixes it is fun way of getting materials and it should stay
I don't like the thinking that because something is too good it should be nerfed. especially in a single player game where you have a choice to use a feature or not.
@@dumaskhan this !
absolutely. I mean this only works well suuper late game and by that point you u have earned to break the game a little
Look at this dude making a bus of legendary items. An absolute legend
Factorio ended to be balanced the exact time Space Age was released, and it's perfect as it is.
Change my mind.
Factorio was never balanced. With a functionally unlimited amount of space and resources the only real limit towards production was processing power and time.
Space age simply speeded up the process, nothing more nothing less.
Yeah, soon as I saw yesterday's video I had the idea. I have to retract my comment from yesterday about a fix to this and +1 to: is it really broken. Why would they include the researches to get huge production bonuses if they didn't want those items to become ridiculously cheap in late-endgame. It feels as through the late-endgame is legendary everything. Great series, thanks!
11:45, why are you still saying 1 coal becomes 3.2 steel? you just explained that it keeps running without adding more coal.
you now produce steel by tossing copper plate into the lava pool (when copper backs up)
exactly, 1 coal becomes infinite steel.
I'm not complaining but y'all fell for the engagement bait. Yeah it's not broken. If you're playing a single player game after the 1000 hour anything is fine to cater to ease. You've spent all this time and resources to get here, you deserve it lol
Oh .. now i get it. The lava really breaks things
I am flabberghasted. Until yesterday I had no idea this was possible. And I totally love it! I suppose they could cap productivity at 290 to have a least a little bit of input going. But given the amount of time and effort to get to this point, I think it's just a really neat reward to keep it this way.
I was screaming at the quality modules in the POC build, glad to see they didnt make it in the final build.
As for your plan with legendary calcite. Looking in factoriopedia it's either legendary cliff explosives, or legendary shells. But no clue why that would be awesome apart from a flex. So it has to be the legendary stone you get out of foundries when consuming lava? But then what? Legendary foundations?
Really curious to see where that's heading!
From response of @nullcypher:
"You can do the same with cast concrete. Use legendary calcite with lava to get molten iron and legendary stone, which you can use to make legendary bricks that can then be used to make legendary concrete which can be recycled into legendary iron ore and bricks."
Legendary concrete is made for legendary bricks and molten iron
With legendary calcite -> legendary stone bricks we're so close to making a full Nauvis legendary science build. Only missing legendary stone for prod science packs and I'm not seeing a way to get it reliably. That's prob not worth it anyway.
Edit: Nvm it's legendary calcite -> legendary stone so we do have everything needed.
Should be able to make a legendary mall now for chem plants, refineries, inserters, assemblers, pumpjacks....Everything from Nauvis straight to legendary with no upcycling.
Legendary bricks, legendary stone, legendary concrete (both kinds).
All of them useful for a bunch of legendary buildings.
The legendary stone is for legendary rocket silo's, oil plants, artillery etc.
I'm not sure it's going to be patched out. Instead they capped productivity at 300%. Because that's the point where you break even, if you could get to 310% you could profit on plastic recycling LDS.
To be honest, why should they patch it?
lets summarize: Through means of engineering and high end science you achieved to convert raw electric energy into matter.
Ultra late game bus of legendary items sounds like "New Game+"
It's hard to me imagine how can they patch it without breaking at least one new feature. Unless they start considering liquid quality, the only way they can fix it is to remove foundry special recipes, which would suck, or nerf productivity, which would suck. Even blocking quality from recycling asteroids will make it harder to get, but the LDS loop will always be there. Maybe I'm missing obvious solution here?
You could remove quality from elements (C, S, Fe, Ho, etc) entirely. That would be more scientific, and kinda sad.
they could make LDS and processing units self recycling
Quality for liquids seems like an obvious fix to this. Not sure how hard that is to implement, but it's pretty much the same consideration as separate liquids, so..
they could make it so that foundry and assembler lds recipes dont make the same entity, so when xou recycle a foundry lds you only get the plastic out, but the asembler ones still spit out all 3. but this is so insanely end game that this is the least of what you deserve at this stage of the game
@@lolkingftw4804 Once they said in FFF that they don't want to make different recipes making same thing because you cannot handle recycling it. But then I thought about different solution you reminded me of- probabilistic recycling. Game would count how many items were produced by each recipe, probably per planet, and then when recycled it could recycle by probability. You could teleport items with that, so you should count it per planet and maybe handle transfer of items between planets.
If they really wanted to "fix" it..... Basically put a pollution mechanic back on Volcans. Put some kind of threshold where once production reaches a certain point, your base emits seismic waves that attract huge (legendary?) demolishers that want to stop all the loud machines ^>^. Respect the shai-hulud!
Or, ya know, let a non-competitive (mostly)singleplayer game have a breaking point with a hundred+ hours of playtime and let modders deal with making things more difficult. Worked for Skyrim.
You talk about patching it out, but what part of it can be changed without affecting many other processes
I kind of don't get why you needed the coal, though.
With 300% productivity, you consume 5 plastic to output 4 LDS, which returns 1 plastic and a 25% chance for another one. I.e. on average you get back all 5 plastic. You only need the starting plastic and an additional handful to compensate for bad luck. You can get that legendary plastic from the red or blue circuit farms for almost no cost.
Legendary plastic is still useful for legendary circuits. The way he said it was confusing.
Personally I just built my legendary sutff using the blue chip upcycler with +300% prod
I dont see a need to fix this?
by the point you have this online, you are way past the point of any challenge in the game sans "number go up"
You've gotten every research, have basically infinite sized mines you can easily grab, and can honestly get legendary whatever by simply putting quality modules and tossing any failed upgrade to the lava and you still wont have a problem.
Yea, you can get anything you want legendary.
You just need to first beat the game many times over.
It's not broken, it's the reward for having gotten to the point where you can build the setups required to actually do this.
It's the logical end result of productivity, speed and quality. Still limited by throughput, which is the only real there has ever been in a game with infinite maps providing infinite resources. It's simpler, sure... but the folks who push on to this are probably going to be almost exclusively the megabase builders, so in effect, this is just the point where they have finally finished building the factory that will build their real factory.
I assume they knew there were positive feedback loops. In FFF they talked about how it would become positive with any productivity over 300% and still they added a bunch of new endless research that allow exactly that.
the research is endless but the productivity stops at 300% no matter what you do.'
The 300% cap is specifically meant to prevent positive loops and make it so the best possibility is neutral. That said, alternate recipes that recycle to a superset of their solid ingredients let you make net positive loops anyways. The only two recipes I'm aware of that have this are casting low density structure, and rocket fuel from ammonia (and legendary rocket or solid fuel isn't really that useful all things considered).
Ahh, I didn't realize those researches were capped. So only truly busted for these fluid recipes. The rest of them though you can eventually upcycle anything in their production tree to legendary without waste so not useless, just not crazy like this.
@@angeldude101 blue circuits in a bit more of a convoluted way, but yeah.
@@bad_manbot Blue circuits can becomes lossless with enough prod research, but unlike LDS or rocket fuel, it can't become net _positive,_ so you can't just skip all of the intermediate qualities and directly print legendary materials.
I don't think it is broken, you are working with Legendary item, with very high productivity research. Takes a lot to get there, which at that point its irrelevant, would be broken if it was like possible to do this with rare or uncommon items with barely any producitiviry
17:16 I love this Frankenstein's monster of a build, if's like if a Vulcanus and Fulgora blueprint had a baby
The amount of crazy stuff Space Age let us build is mind blowing
Ways to limit this in a functional way:
1. Require calcite on all foundry production that's at a ratio equivalent to iron/copper/coal saved with making molten iron/copper. This also means if you're making quality steel, gears, lds, etc. then you need higher quality calcite.
2. Recyclers also have a chance to downgrade the output of quality input products. This chance is reduced with quality mods but is never zero.
3. Machines that can only be built on specific planets have their bonuses limited if used off that planet.
If it's near zero it doesn't end up mattering all that much, considering to get to this point you already need what he just built in the last episode to start it up.
Alternatively remove the LDS from molten recipe, just have the default recipe in the foundry
A chance to downcycle products would break every single upcycling build and would genuinely suck gameplay wise.
@@roadtrain_ I know. Awesome, isn't it?
@NukeMarine I mean I don't see the point of limiting it in the first place because in order to do this you need to have visited every planet, you need to have unlocked legendary quality and you need god knows how many levels of productivity research.
8:50 that recycler shouldn't have quality modules? It's already taking in legendary items, what's it going to upgrade to?
I knew your plan involved legendary plastic, but I was not prepared for the legendary LDS shuffle.
Kudos for the ship names! I just started watching this series from the begining, but i'm glad i took a peak for this episode.
Honestly, they should probably add some quality modifers to recipes.
You'd then apply that to asteroid conversion, LDS, and other recipes that REALLY should not be producing legendary resources in quantity.
Lava refining for high quality lava would be a interesting way to make the cost a little more realistic for that stage of the game. Thats the only step that seems too easy.
300% productivity is the limit, and it's a nice and round 4x multiplier, and it was deliberate to match the 25% recycler, designed such that once you reach the limit, you can the intermediate goods that have prod research into legendary for no extra cost. (Blue chips, Plastic, LDS), which you then recycle to get legendary green and red circuits, copper, steel.
Legendary sulfur, iron, are easily obtainable as well.
Using blue chips, you can input normal materials and create legendary copper, iron, and plastic outputs at no cost besides sulfuric acid using blue-chip upcycler.
They would have made the prod limit smaller if they didn't want this to happen.
Legendary stone I thought would be impossible without just doing a brute force upcyler and wasting 90% of the input.
But foundries consume calcite and make stone, so all you need is legendary calcite, which comes from the spaceship (of course that's why you have it, duh)
And with it you make legendary concrete with all that iron you're making anyways so that you get legendary bricks as well without needing to waste your precious legendary stone.
Splits out some iron ore, but concrete to iron ore ratio is so bad and small relative to your actual iron needs that you're better off just junking it.
I can see legendary science packs. Just feed it your build. Thats crazy. Kudos again. Did you plan that on beginning? I miss that i don't have time to watch your streams it used to be a lot of fun.
If you get the independent research to 300% you can put speed modules in directly and not lose any productivity.
every item in the game with a productivity research that can also be recycled will eventually no matter what be possible to infinitely loop.
just the nature of 10% extra per level and 25% ROI when recycled.
Eventually you just get more than it costs and can print "free things"
Keep in mind the 300% productivity cap. You can reach resource neutral but never resource positive.
Where did all the legendary iron ore come frome?
After filling every planet with legendary substations, those common grids look so cramped... but it would be so much work to refactor those now
I’m sad you skipped the design process of the LDS recycler. It’s a brand new concept (cycling feeder plastic). So much of Factorio is solved or just a stamp of “x inputs, y output” it’s not very often we get to be a part of a brand new type of production.
Why do you have quality modules in the recycler if the input is already legendary quality?
That wasn't actually intentional. It just ended up that way in his quick-and-dirty proof of concept build. In the proper build toward the end of the video the recyclers all carry speed modules.
I'm really curious about the calcite, too. The only thing I can think of off hand is using the calcite to craft legendary molten iron or copper and just dumping the iron/copper to get the legendary stone byproduct as your end goal.
You'll get legendary stone, liquids have no quality, however.
@@jaspervaneck3258 Yeah, that's what I mean. The recipe is 'legendary molten iron' but you'd just get the legendary stone, for legendary stone bricks/concrete/etc and the related buildings made from it
you could honestly just request a stack of plastic as a 1 time request whenever you set up the blueprint
I guess he just reflexively put quality modules in the recycler?
So that's it; that's anything legendary you could ever want really. Damn.
in my opinion it's not broken, this is how endgame should be
why waste quality modules on recyclers if they cant upcycle legendary??
He fixed it in the second build
I guess the only thing that bothers me about this is that it's meta and there really isn't a better way to approach it. That's math though. There will always be a best and most optimal way. It's my own fault for watching videos that are ahead of my playthrough, but now I know that my future is simply creating some version of the asteroid LDS shuffle.
Unload the stone from the foundries directly into an assembler making landfill and just send the landfill on a belt to be disposed off
He has done that countless times, I’m sure he knows of it
Would a good patch for it be just making it plastic negative? Meaning say it requires 24 Plastic to make and only recycles to 5 with 300% equating to 20 Plastic, and therefore needs supplemental plastic and coal? The amounts could be tweaked, I just used 24 and 20 to demonstrate the net negative principle.
How do you get legendary coal? Just by using a legendary miner, you get 100% legendary coal output, or do you put quality modules in a drill and filter out the legendary coal?
Last episode was space platforms doing upcycling on asteroid chunks to create legendary chunks which create legendary carbon and sulfur to convert to legendary coal.
@StormCrow42 thanks!
my jaw droppes cause of the productivity you get from legendary stuff.. IS INSANNNNEEE!! 1 coal 8 bars of plastic.. jezus f christ!!! i need to play it
Why are you asking them to fix it? Your entire production line is legendary this is absolutely expected and the type of return you would expect after all the investment
Definitely needs a patch. Bypassing all the quality mechanics in the game and turning lava straight into legendary copper and steel with no real cost trivializes all other methods of getting this resources.
I dont get the "Do it now, because they will patch it , its too good". I dont see anyhting broken nor OP. More like clickbait: "We brake the game!!!!!1111oneeleven" (...when the game is already finished and everything is researched). I guess "superlateendgame-mechanic for legendary stuff" doesnt net the same amount of viewers like the "tweaked" title. Dissappointed.
would this work the same by making legendary calcite and making plates directly?
would that give a higher production output?
Funnily enough calcite isn't used to make plates, it's used to make molten iron/copper and liquids don't have quality. So, it doesn't work
Does the Recycler productivity research interact with this loop? If you could get that to level 30+ would you get a net gain.
I don't see this being patched though, it's a very late game thing. If someone has invested the time to get the quality prod modules and the research, then they have 'earned' the ability to build everything at legendary
Recycler productivity is only applied to recycling the actual Scrap item found on Fulgora.
What is the use of quality modules in the recycler ? Since the input is already legendary ?
Aren't speed modules decrease quality of products in recyclers? Also can't you just recycle steel for iron? (still didn't get to recyclers part in my save)
Reposting from the last video: As a chemist, I have a problem with "legendary elements". Sulphur is sulphur wherever you find it in the universe (and however you spell it, btw), and the same for carbon, iron, copper and holmium. I can cope with the concept of Legendary Steel - it's some fantastic alloy not yet invented, and legendary machines and intermediates, but elements are by definition elementary.
As a Factorio player, however, this is just wonderful!
Surely, as a chemist, you're are familiar with 95%, 99%, 99.999% purities and occasional importance of those values?
Couldn’t you argue it’s something like purity of the material?
I just think of it as purity
Quality is really an abstraction for a variety of different concepts, from purity of raw materials, to tolerance of machined parts and electronics.
maybe the higher quality is more pure?
Is a legendary rocket a thing? Othereise what sorts of things would legendary LDSs be useful for?
Armor and equipment
Nilhaus i never even considered this in my run, im going to have to do a new run to try this
With 300% productivity you can get 500 iron ore per metal asteroid chunk
Why did you put quality modules in your recycler for the legendary items?
Oh you absolute genius
one just simply need 1 legendary coal then.. After that one can produce infinite legendary plastic then low densty then returned as copper+steel which can be recyled as legendary again.. nice indeed.
The recycling is random chance based though, so while it’s plastic neutral on average there’s nothing stopping it from having a period of time where it outputs less plastic than expected and the whole thing grinds to a halt. That’s why you need to have the ability to replenish it with additional legendary plastic.
Can't you achieve the same result by directly casting free copper and steel from lava and then upcycle it with quality moduled recyclers?
That's an amazing ship.
Does he even need the legendary quality modules in the recycler to recycle his legendary LDS? They should be completely useless there right?
Why are you using quality modules on the recyclers? Shouldn't you be using productivity?
Can’t put productivity on recyclers
Wait "Latter-day Saints" are in the game now?
recyclers go brrrrrrr 22:00
How would you "patch this out"? Remove foundries? Legendary fluids?
by not allowing LDS productivity to reach 300%
Just raise the plastic amount for the foundry LDS recipe... really that's nothing hard to nerf ! (recycler use the Assemblers LDS recipe to retrieve raw materials)
How you still flying around in rare mech armor when you got legendary coal.
am I not understanding something about the lds shuffle?
you only need the coal to jump start it, once you have enough plastic coming back, it feeds itself.
Yes, you don't need any coal incoming, unless you want to use the LDS itself
Yes, but you also want some legendary LDS and some legendary plastic anyway.
that also needs max productivity (+300%) on the machine making lds, but yes.
It feeds itself on average, but it’s RNG-based. You want to have extra on standby to replenish whenever you go through a plastic-light period of recycling, otherwise the whole thing dries up. When you are in a plastic-rich period you just put it in a buffer.
But in general yes, you get way more than the numbers Nilaus quoted back per piece of coal.
The Pandora's vault has been open
How much legendary coal that spaceship producing?
can you also get legendary iron plates from recycling steel?
no. recycling does not undo smelting or chemical reactions. besides he already has legendary iron ore to make the plates so it would be redundant if so.
@DjId3Nt ah ok!
Mowteng? Dewalt? Beratna!
If there were no items with more than 1 recipe then quality would be in a really good place as a feature. But foundry and casting messes it up.
Dont think this needs a patch
Its a cool way to do things
Can you go for legendary armor next?
Bästa cliffhangern ever :-)
Now do legendary science production!
If it's patched, I imagine the lds recipe will get moved from the foundry to the EM plant
Makes no sense, in terms of the electric theme
Bricking peoples factories, even for normal LDS, just to stop some extremely lategame legendary production sounds like a very bad move.
amazing episode
sorry if i missed it, but isn't the the recycler doing LDS supposed to have prod modules?
can't add productivity modules to recyclers
@@walid2875 ah ok
I strongly disagree, they should not patch it
reaching this point of the game took a long and hard time. breaking the game at the point feels rewarding more than anything and you have the choice to ignore it
and thats very good episode :)
Why use quality modules when recycling lds that are legendary?
He fixed it in the second build
17:34 "Ungodly amount of time" == 36% of the duration of Plastic Bar Productivity 10 research... always supposing that Nilaus didn't revert to autosaves during the design process!
Coal catalyst.
the only end game i know is legendary.