This is my obligatory comment to drown out any potential hate comments... Carah is amazing. We love her. She's an amazing addition. Please never stop being you.
I remember serving at winter quarters and falling absolutely in love with the pioneers and their miracles. Later when my husband went through his faith crisis, it was heart breaking to learn the context of those stories or that they were embellished.
There are so many stories that most orthodox members know from the culture and so many of them are made up completely or embellished. It’s really sad because they are entrenched and basically canonized in the Mormon experience and there isn’t a good reason why they are retold or not corrected by the church.
As a new adult convert I was freaked out when a mom friend lectured her 6 year old for her shoulders showing in a sundress, and made her put on a sweater over it. The girl got caught taking the sweater off at school and the mom lost it, “remember who you are!”
I attended a church ”pool party”. The ward had rented a local pool for the day. I overheard a conversation between a group of mothers regarding their children’s pool attire. A mother was trying to explain her 5-6 year old daughter’s two piece bathing suit. (Her daughter’s one piece was in the wash). It sounded to me like a ”my dog ate my homework” kind of excuse. Who WHO ever needs to declare proper pool attire for a small child?, other than uptight, self-righteous, gossiping, pretend religious jerks?
@@johnhorner1969 This a MORMON thing! They do this idiotic crap throughout America. I’ve seen it happen in multiple places over a lifetime. Don’t kid yourself that it is only a “Utah” thing, as this self righteous perfection ideal pervades everything in the Church everywhere.
@@wt460 I agree it’s a Mormon thing, however, all the unhealthy cultural practices in the church are ratcheted up more and more prevalent inside the Utah bubble. Most Mormons outside of Utah, but specifically on the east coast are generally less judgmental. This is coming from my experience having grown up in Utah and lived throughout the country as a Mormon, who currently lives on the east coast.
@@johnhorner1969 Our experiences certainly differ, but I won’t argue with your point. There are differences between those Mormons raised in Utah and those raised anywhere else. Perhaps it’s just a matter of degree, but your point has validity. Thanks…
I’m only a few minutes into the interview, but what a composed individual she is. Very classy. Perfect posture, obviously highly intelligent. To work in the offices of so many general authorities…. She must have an astounding mind, work ethic etc.. Everything about her makes you lean forward in anticipation of whatever she is going to say next.
I love John and Carah together! I think you should just be cohosts. The two of you balance each other very well with John’s background/history heavy perspective and Carah’s easy going, youth perspective, keeping things from getting too heavy. Love it!
As a former Bishop and currently inactive member I identify with so many things Camille shared in both her interviews. Thank you to Camille for your intelligent, thoughtful, and honest responses to questions which were really therapeutic for me to hear. I love what you said - Fairy tales can be great, and you can learn a lot from them, as long as you remember they are fairy tales. Truly well done.
Bishops wife; bless them! I used to babysit for the bishop and saw close up how it was in their home. People would drop by unannounced with life crises every time. There should have been a couple of people in the ward who could have brought refreshments. I swear lots of kids would be good with Oreos too. These women really keep the wheels turning behind the Priesthood
Now I'm thinking that, if an angel was able to take the plates after they were translated so that no one stole them, what was the point of hiding them in the first place?
I loved this video. I listened to this and to part 2 all night long rather than sleeping! Camille is so intelligent, so articulate. Being that intelligent can have its own issues such as feeling pressured to be perfect and others may find it difficult to relate or find common ground. If she were my daughter I would ask her to consider going into a field where she is surrounded by similarly intelligent people, for example the medical field, computers, law, etc. She needs to surround herself with equals. She has just recently left the church and her new journey has just begun. I wish her all the best and I hope she can find contentment and happiness.
Thank you! I'm doing exactly what you suggested. I'm studying archaeology now and I've rarely met such a group of nerds. We have the best conversations and it's so much better than anything I've done before.
I'm getting the biggest kick out of the 2 Hill Kimura theory. I was brought up Catholic and we were taking marriage instruction with an elderly priest. One session the priest explained to us that he had figured out there must have been more than one Garden of Eden. That there God must have made 4 or 5 sets of Adam and Eve, each with their own Gardens of Edens . And this is why people come in different colors. Someone we kept a straight face. The mental gymnastics that religious belief causes is crazy.
Laughed so hard when John exclaimed "what the hell??!!!" Over the polygamy comment to Camille. My dad would be one of those men who think that way. Very much romanticized the gospel growing up and as a child knew he probably fantasized his future in the celestial kingdom with multiple wives. I very much have said what the hell in my own head over the things my father said and did. 😂
I appreciate Cara's witty side and making the really heavy stories a little more light by adding humor into it. Humor can be healing and bring you into a better frame of mind.
If this doesn’t sum up the attitude of Mormonism I don’t know what does. When she explained how she felt bad not turning her companion roommate in for drinking black chai tea in ignorance. This. This is Mormonism. Modern day Pharisees, counting every joy and tittle and making sure they follow all the checklists so they can be holy enough.
Can anyone tell me ( no criticism of podcast - I love them) why in US it is common to use the conditional perfect -“I wish I would have..” when in English it is the pluperfect (or past perfect) that is more appropriate. I mean, why would you have known? So “I wish I had known..” makes more sense.
That’s part of the conditioning that women in the lds church receive that starts when they are young girls. Even though women are victimized, there is a kind of subtle conditioning that causes them to question the culpability of the predator and accept that they were at fault, that they are responsible in the interaction where they have been victimized by a man, mormon or not. I recall when I was first married in late the 1980’s, my bride and I lived in a state outside the intermountain west, in an apartment complex with a large number of other young married mormon couples. One Saturday afternoon, the resident manager panickedly knocked on my apartment door. All she did was beckon me to come with her and told me that the church needed to intervene. I was not in a position of leadership but she and I had a good resident/manager relationship and she respected me and thought me to be more responsible than most. We went to the next breezeway in our building and there stood wide open the door to an apartment of another young mormon couple. She was half-sprawled on the sofa with her hands raised in a defensive position. She had a black eye, a bloody nose and a split, bleeding lip. She was crying. Her husband stood closely over her with his left hand grasping her upper arm and his right hand raised to strike another blow. There was some fresh blood on his first and second knuckles. I could hear him screaming profanities at her as we approached the breezeway. When he realized we saw what was going on as we approached, he slammed the front door closed. I was ready to engage him and kick his ass. Anyway, the yelling had stopped. Someone else had called the Sheriff and he rolled up right after the door was slammed shut. I told the manager that I’d contact the Elders Quorum President immediately. The next Saturday afternoon, I was walking back to my place from the laundry room with two stacked laundry baskets. I was using the sidewalk immediately in front of me to navigate as the baskets blocked my view. I heard someone call my name. I stopped, shuffled the load so I could see who was addressing me. It was my neighbor, the gal who’d was taking a beating from her husband the weekend before. She thanked me for coming over with the resident manager and for then calling the Elder’s Quorum President. I told her it was the very least that I could do and that if the Sheriff had not showed up when he did, that I would have physically intervened. She looked surprised. I told her that I was raised that you don’t hit women and raised to intervene if necessary …that if I encountered a situation like I had, I needed to step into the breech and defend a woman from her abuser. She explained to me that according to our Bishop, the beating was her fault. He intimated that she kinda had it coming. She was admonished to be a better wife, helper, cook, cleaner, laundress and yes, even lover. If she had been those things, she’d have not become a punching bag for his frustrations. After all, he was working full time, going to school full time, working to magnify his callings and it was quite the load for him. Apparently she was behind a trivial amount on the laundry as she’d not yet ironed a couple of his white shirts and that precipitated this beating. There had been others as I was briefed by the Elder’s Quorum President as part of being his eyes and ears in the complex where this couple was concerned. Official calling? No. Looking out for this couple? Yep. I had no problem being available to help. She was a high school aged convert to the lds church and was confused by the suggestion that this was her fault, that she had it coming. I reiterated that no woman deserves to be treated by her husband like that. I told her that I thought the bishop was out of his mind. My wife had come over to help me carry the laundry as I was MIA lol. It was perfect timing. She and I had previously discussed the situation and my wife extended to this gal, our home as a sanctuary if she needed a safe place to go when the next beating loomed on her horizon. While this is my experience with women being victimized by the church’s giving abusive men a free pass, I’ve heard of numerous other cases like the one I described over the years, especially after we resigned our church membership in the late 1990’s.
Mormons going to historical sites for a vacation is absolutely crazy to me! I’ve always felt bad for my grandparents, like don’t you wanna go relax in a beach or something. 😵💫
I have a story about the pressure the sister missionaries tour guides are under to look a certain way . At the sight where my niece served, her mission president encouraged the sisters to do a group weigh-in at least a few times..they had to hop on the scale in front of each other and have their weight recorded and known by the others. She was one of the heavier sisters,so she was very embarrassed of course. Especially since part of her weight really is tied to medical conditions, it’s not easy . That made me so angry when I learned that later. She ended up coming home early from her mission with severe anxiety and health problems.
This is terrible! OMG! Weight shaming is so very harmful for people's mental health. I can't stand it when people do these kinds 9f things. This is probably why there were so many sisters with eating disorders, as mentioned in the interview.
It seems very common but especially in "religious" environments people do not discuss dating honestly from the perspective on both sides. Being single for years now and talking to mormon and non member girls i cringe at how often how this knowledge could have saved a lot of heartache, time and energy for myselfand others.
My mom was a senior missionary in Nauvoo a few years ago. While she was there, they changed some of the scripts to eliminate some of the faith promoting (false) aspects of the stories.
I served my mission partly in Kirkland Ohio in 1973 and had a heated conversation with RLDS that ended with my companion and I leaving. The owners of the first Temple in Kirkland are very certain that Brigham Young was a false prophet!
@@skylark1250 lol I was told early on ne er to put your real contact info down on LDS site tours, or put in someone you want to punk. Or go ahead if you need some service done around your house - yard work etc 😉
Also, on my 1972-74 Ohio West Virginia mission, we were told to never proselytize “Negroes” as they were from the seed of Cain and cursed in their first estate. We were to just tell them to go to the church of their choice. This was a strict mission rule!
We went to Palmyra about 14 years ago. We were members of the church all our adult lives. We were hoping for inspiration and testimony building. No spirityal feelings. Not a thing. Not even in the sacred Grove. The missionaries looked very fearful. I wonder how difficult it is for them now that all the cats are out of the bag. I would rather spend my money and time on the beach in Mexico for sure.
I was in a mission where a lot of missionaries had limiting health conditions, dietary issues, etc. So that was somewhat reassuring that some thought was put into my health and wellbeing.
I love to read, was always in choir in high school, never dated anyone in high school or college, and I think Camille is really cool. After hearing about normal missionaries her perspective is different!
Wait, I (a nevermo LDS history nerd) went to the Hill Cumorah and asked specifically what happened when they searched the hill with ground penetrating radar. She said she didn't know. I said even if there wasn't a room, the box the plates were in would have showed up. She didn't have an answer for that, or for "what happened to the plates?"
There is an answer, and she knew there was an answer. She didn’t want to tell you as that would have led you away in an instant, but they won’t do that. They will reel you in, telling you only one-half the story until you are baptized and have an in to your money (10% of your gross earnings in tithing). It is only then that they will slowly give you the real story as they did so many of the converts that I would see as I grew into adulthood. Just keep being a never-mo history buff and not a member…
The art of the sale. That's how I see the mission experience now. Mine was 84-86. I was a convered in 1980. The mtc was basically sales training now that I think of it, although I did not see it that way back then.
I agree to an extent. It was more for me but only because I think about it different. You are correct 100% that it is the art of the deal brainwashing but I had lifelong friends and learned so much about life and work ethic and independence and self motivation that I will always benefit from regardless of the truthfulness of the message. Currently going through faith review in my own life but I look back so fondly on my experience and what it did for me but I completely understand why many wouldn’t view or think about their mission experiences similarly.
Very cool podcast. I liked it when Camille talked about drinking chai tea on her mission. It made me think of the picture of Jesus welcoming you into the celestial kingdom and saying, “I’m so glad you didn’t drink coffee.” Right….. starting in 1967, I lived in Nauvoo from age 14-24. Mixed all the mortar for the restoration of the Brigham Young home, Seminary president, went on a mission etc. yadda-yadda. I thought it was so cool, until I found out about Joseph Smith’s bull crap, so much lying and subterfuge, polygamy/polyandry the Masonic temple ceremony, Kirtland Safety Society, Kinderhook, on and on. Mountain Meadows, blood atonement, castrations of young men. Everything became unraveled in 2010, resigned, haven’t looked back. Loved it when the GA said if you leave the church where are you going to go or do! My reply is simply: whatever I want to!
I need to catch one of your lives haha. I was just listening to this, and I wanted to come on here and make a comment about being a girl growing up in the church. Am I the only one who had NO idea I was allowed to tell a boy “no” when he asked me on a date? No one ever even mentioned that to me. I didn’t know I was allowed to say “no” until after I was married! (I wanted to say yes to my husband lol). No one taught me how to say “no” or turn down a date. Or that I could. Did they teach boys how to handle it when being told no? I don’t think they did that either.
I was r**** after my baptism and ended up pregnant. I asked for help from the church and it fell on deaf ears. I was forced to give up the baby due to being disabled. I walked away from activity for close to 30 years. And yes the person knew I was Mormon and that didn't matter.
Years back, covering up all sorts of abuse was common, and I think across all of society. I am not Mormon, but was abused. It was partially dealt with promptly, but the man’s wife was never told. The thought was to protect her. Later they adopted children. Now we know what we thought then was so unwise. I am glad we aren’t prosecuted for what we thought was right.
I think it would be really cool if the church started incorporating the folk magic stuff into the tours. It would inject some life into the narrative for me.
If I had known about the folk magic as a teenager and been allowed to go to the temple when I first requested (18 right before going into the Army) I would have stayed longer. I CRAVED the ritual the temple would have given and we even had sacred handshakes! That would have THRILLED the 18 year old me. Now I'm diving deep into the folk magic while I'm deconstructing and it's not surprising to anyone who knew me that I'm pagan now. 😂 GIVE ME MAGIC!
John I would vote the stories of Camille be on ur top stories list. What an amazing woman. Maybe the church should have a Burka policy as its way to protect men/priesthood holders from temptation. Its amazing how many intelligent people take Mormonism on Blind Faith and don't question any of this, me included.
My interest in going to Palmyra is for my family history. They were the Pecks/Knights. I would imagine many Mormons want to discover their family roots
My parent’s mission in Tiffin, OH had a board game too. And we had a Book of Mormon one too. I used to play both as a kid. It makes me want to go find those again at my mom’s house.
I served in Kirtland and Hyrum in the early 2000’s. I was actually formally called to be a historic site missionary for the second half of my mission and gave tours at the John Johnson home/farm. No one knew the correlated church history better than me. Little did I know…….
The fact that simply teaching Neitzche briefly in English at BYUI in one class is edgy says all you need to know about the church university system. Not really opening and expanding minds, but keeping them sealed shut.
That would be wild to be a missionary up there and tell as close to truthful information as possible and watch people squirm. Some Bishop shows up with his church history tour group or whole busload of people from his ward, and the truthful missionary speaks it out as freely as possible just to see what happens.
I born into Christian fundamentalism and the mind control and cognitive dissonance is so very similar. And on a humorous note: we read the bible from Genesis to Revelation many times, and when I hear many of the names from the Book of Mormon I chuckle as Smith obviously took Bible names and changed the first letter. haha! I also find it telling that when LDS quote from their books, they are so often a nearly word for word copy of Bible scriptures. And most Mormons have no idea.
I went to a lot of the historical sites in 2022 they had the stone in the hat and a sister missionary tell me it was like Bluetooth where he was able to translate the plates rather than look at it
I served in the NYRM from 2005-2007. It was a great time with great people, but I kind of wish I didn't bother. I put my life's ambitions on hold right at the height of most precious ages in life(20-22). To anyone going on a mission to please family members but don't have you're own testimony, my advice is don't do it. Your family will get over it.
Is anyone making notes or summaries of these interviews? I just can't seem to find or make the time to listen all he way through but would love some insights!
Here are highlights I wrote down. Camille Jones served her mission at the Visitor's Center in Palmyra where the First Vision purportedly occurred. She had to memorize what the Church wanted her to share with visitors and teach from their site manuals. She says at 1:15:00, "I knew about the seer stone. I did not know about the stone in the hat. So no, never taught anything about that. ….I did hear about treasure digging, but the way we were taught it, and the way that if somebody brought it up we would reply, was that it was a job. He was a hard worker, a farm laborer, it was a labor job. He would go dig. Somebody would pay him to dig a hole." John Dehlin: "If you were told that Joseph's role was as a manual laborer treasure digging, that's outright dishonest and the church has known at least since the 60's and 70's that Joseph was leading the treasure digs as the one who claimed to have the power to find the buried treasure even though there's no account like in the 16 or 18 digs of him ever actually finding buried treasure. The church has known all this. So for them to communicate to you as a missionary, knowing the truth but then telling you that he was just the shovel-digger, is really deceptive. And it has to be intentionally deceptive because it's embarrassing for them to say he was into folk magic and was claiming to see underground with the stone in the hat, that happens to be the stone in the hat that he claimed to have translated the Book of Mormon when the plates weren't actually in the room. The fact that they didn't tell you any of that but told you a false narrative is kind of troubling to me." Camille Jones: "Well, all the stuff I didn't know is still troubling to me." @1:33:04 - Camille Jones: "I had heard at some point, somewhere before my mission, issues with the genetics of the DNA for Native Americans and the issue about there were no horses before the Conquistadors arrived. I don't know if I just kind of dismissed it, or threw it out. It never crossed my mind. And then after, later when I was like yeah, well, I knew that, I knew there were issues. I had just never bothered to really think about it." John Dehlin: "What you just explained is inoculation theory, which is that if the Church can, and this is what they are doing now, now that they - and we are getting off your story a little bit but this is important - now that the Church, through the internet, has been forced to come clean about the history that it hid from its members for over a hundred years, it has to find a way to save the younger generations and not have them feel like they were deceived like the older generations like me do. And so they are just dropping, 'Oh, stone in a hat, DNA, polygamy,' they are dropping those things to kids when they are teenagers in Seminary and in Sunday School so that they just know a tiny bit about them, and that almost like a vaccine ironically, helps inoculate them for questions that come up later because in their mind they are like, 'Oh, I'm not surprised by a stone in the hat, that was mentioned to me while I was in Seminary.' And you're kind of saying that that's how it was for you." Camille Jones: "Yeah." @1:45:10 Camille Jones: "Next place [I served my mission]: Grandin Building, Book of Mormon publication. ....You show them, here's the bookstore. Take them up the stairs and you show them, 'Here's where they bound and here's where they print and here's how it works.' And you're supposed to sprinkle in little stories about how it was translated. They've got a little display area that's set up to look like a kitchen in one of these log or frame houses from the time period. And on it they have a replica of the plates covered with a cloth. And so on quiet days as missionaries we'd go up there and we'd look at this replica, we'd uncover it. ....So going back to the whole stone in the hat thing, the implication of having this on the table is there was no stone in the hat, you had the plates on the table for the translation." John Dehlin: "But it's worse, because yes, you would want the stone in the hat to be there, but now we know that the plates, when Joseph allegedly translated the Book of Mormon, the plates weren't in the room, they were in the forest and he was looking into the stone in the hat supposedly channeling the plates in the forest. So to even have the plates in the room is deceptive. Right?" Camille Jones: "That's exactly what I mean. That's why I brought that up."
Yes, there was archaeology. Remember the BOA obtained from a traveling man with Egyptian artifacts. But certainly Joe was living life “by the seat of his pants” and wasn’t worried about anyone digging up the hill Cumorah in his near future.
I've listened to every episode of MSP. This story should be the episode that exmos send to their family members. This woman is even keeled and smart. She has credibility and shows that exmos are not just a bunch of Savage Mormon haters but rather a group of intellectual curious individuals who discovered systemic abuse and institutional manipulation from the highest level of the church from JS to present day.
Great, great interview! I would place it in the top two or three ever. Camille is a beautiful person -- genuine, serene , intelligent and attractive. Thank you Camille. I also saw an entirely new side of Carah. She had always struck me as a snarky, foul-mothed participant. But, this time, I was struck with her as a professional, skillful, as well as responsible interviewer. Thank you Carah!
I think I'm just now catching on to this nuance, maybe. It's not Brethren and Sisters; it's Elders and sisters. The Elders can attend the meetings because they are Elder. Women are just sisters. Men are Elders. Even the language itself is exclusionary and patriarchal. Of course the sisters are excluded because they can't be Elders. This is similar to why gay people should not be able to married - because then their marriages might be deemed equal with righteous marriage. Special people want to remain special. You can't maintain special power and special privileges if everyone gets to be equal.
D&C 77:6 has the 7000 years, or 1000 years for every seal reference from in Revelations. FAIR tries to say it’s not supposed to be literally historic, but human history is over 10,000 years old.
@@fellowviewer1095 a lot of cave art here in Australia by Aboriginals are up to 60,000 years old. It is an extremely old culture that didn’t change much until the white man came
John's comment about the church using attractive female's to do the tours reminded me of something. If you ever walk by Scientology headquarters in Manhattan, you'll notice that the tables out front are manned by lots of very attractive young females in their Sea Org. uniforms. And then of course there is the "flirty fishing" that was practiced by the Children of God.
I met with lds missionary we went thro lessons n wen it got to js n the golden plates I jus thought how silly this sounds n they left after the lesson n I told them not for me my mind has decent reasoning skills
I was confused-- Nietzsche in a survey of British literature? Lol Either way, glad to hear her story. The creepy Utah men and polygamy comments she endured most be so disturbingly common 🤮
Haha..I served a "REAL" Mission..tracting in 100 degree weather in the south in a dress and pantyhose. We also felt superior to the Temple Square missionaries who did time in air conditioned buildings...too funny. Now that I'm out of church,, I now see how all groups within church are set up to compete with one another in who sacrifices/is more worthy/blah blah blah like it's some race to win rather than supporting and unconditionally loving all people. That having been said, I probably have better mission stories to tell lol
To clarify (at least my understanding of) the apologetic narrative on BofM geography: Mormon said that he buried up all of the "source plates" in the Hill Cumorah, except "these plates," which he gave to his son Moroni. Then Moroni spent the next 20 years making his way to where Smith would eventually be, in New York. From what I recall, Joseph Smith himself never called the heal by his house "the Hill Cumorah". You only ever prefer to it as the "hill of considerable size". That could be wrong. But that is exactly the explanation I gave. So the "two hill Cumorah theory" Is that there's a hill that Moroni and Mormon called Cumorah (which the Jaradites called Rama) in Central America. And then the hill where Moroni eventually buried the golden plates was mistakenly called the Hill Cumorah.
Mormon 6:6 "... having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni."
D&C 77:6 says the earth will have 7000 years of "temporal existence". However, if you keep reading to verse 12 you'll find that less than 6000 years have actually passed, because the last 1000 years basically begins at the second coming: "in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God sanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and judge all things..." So, the D&C actually claims the earth is less than 6000 years old.
I know y'all laugh at the Heartland Theory, but honestly, it's a much better fit than any of the other theories based off what the text actually says and what we know about Joseph's reasoning. It doesn't seem that Joseph was going for an exact match anyway (I doubt he had maps in front of him during the "translation" process). The Two Cumorah theory is a ridiculous extrapolation of the data that has no basis in the text or in Joseph's record. No limited geography model explains Joseph's understanding or the textual evidence. But the smoking gun for me is the fact that BoM is an answer to theological questions surrounding the mound builder myth. That maps to the heartland, not to Mesoamerica. If we accept that it's all BS, then I believe that Heartland is less BS than the other BS.
This is my obligatory comment to drown out any potential hate comments...
Carah is amazing. We love her. She's an amazing addition. Please never stop being you.
I remember serving at winter quarters and falling absolutely in love with the pioneers and their miracles. Later when my husband went through his faith crisis, it was heart breaking to learn the context of those stories or that they were embellished.
Yes very disappointing
There are so many stories that most orthodox members know from the culture and so many of them are made up completely or embellished. It’s really sad because they are entrenched and basically canonized in the Mormon experience and there isn’t a good reason why they are retold or not corrected by the church.
@@johnhorner1969 true
As a new adult convert I was freaked out when a mom friend lectured her 6 year old for her shoulders showing in a sundress, and made her put on a sweater over it. The girl got caught taking the sweater off at school and the mom lost it, “remember who you are!”
That’s such a Utah Mormon thing to do. Morally keeping up with the Jone families’ facade of perfection. Sad.
I attended a church ”pool party”. The ward had rented a local pool for the day. I overheard a conversation between a group of mothers regarding their children’s pool attire. A mother was trying to explain her 5-6 year old daughter’s two piece bathing suit. (Her daughter’s one piece was in the wash). It sounded to me like a ”my dog ate my homework” kind of excuse.
Who WHO ever needs to declare proper pool attire for a small child?, other than uptight, self-righteous, gossiping, pretend religious jerks?
@@johnhorner1969 This a MORMON thing! They do this idiotic crap throughout America. I’ve seen it happen in multiple places over a lifetime. Don’t kid yourself that it is only a “Utah” thing, as this self righteous perfection ideal pervades everything in the Church everywhere.
@@wt460 I agree it’s a Mormon thing, however, all the unhealthy cultural practices in the church are ratcheted up more and more prevalent inside the Utah bubble. Most Mormons outside of Utah, but specifically on the east coast are generally less judgmental. This is coming from my experience having grown up in Utah and lived throughout the country as a Mormon, who currently lives on the east coast.
@@johnhorner1969 Our experiences certainly differ, but I won’t argue with your point. There are differences between those Mormons raised in Utah and those raised anywhere else. Perhaps it’s just a matter of degree, but your point has validity. Thanks…
I’m only a few minutes into the interview, but what a composed individual she is. Very classy. Perfect posture, obviously highly intelligent. To work in the offices of so many general authorities…. She must have an astounding mind, work ethic etc.. Everything about her makes you lean forward in anticipation of whatever she is going to say next.
I am an ex JW but can still relate to Camille and her story. Thank you for sharing!
Much love to ex JWs. When I left Mormonism I found John Cedars and his podcasts were fascinating .You guys have it really rough.
@@daniellima2973 bros in arms 🤜🤛
Once again, Mormon Stories nails it with great interviews! We really do learn when we hear the stories of others.
I love John and Carah together! I think you should just be cohosts. The two of you balance each other very well with John’s background/history heavy perspective and Carah’s easy going, youth perspective, keeping things from getting too heavy. Love it!
As a former Bishop and currently inactive member I identify with so many things Camille shared in both her interviews. Thank you to Camille for your intelligent, thoughtful, and honest responses to questions which were really therapeutic for me to hear. I love what you said - Fairy tales can be great, and you can learn a lot from them, as long as you remember they are fairy tales. Truly well done.
Bishops wife; bless them! I used to babysit for the bishop and saw close up how it was in their home. People would drop by unannounced with life crises every time. There should have been a couple of people in the ward who could have brought refreshments. I swear lots of kids would be good with Oreos too. These women really keep the wheels turning behind the Priesthood
Carah, you are doing great in this role!
Thanks! It's nerve-racking but fun!
I'm excited to give this one a listen! I was a sister missionary at Winter Quarters...
Camille, thanks for sharing your perspective. You are a brilliant human being and your insight undoubtedly is extremely important to many.
Camille Jones, you have a great NPR-quality broadcast voice---very Mary Louise Kelly tone, annunciation and delivery!
Grew up with Camille. I know that ward. I was in it. Done.
Now I'm thinking that, if an angel was able to take the plates after they were translated so that no one stole them, what was the point of hiding them in the first place?
Not to mention, if someone looked at them without permission they would be struck dead.
I am not a Morman but really enjoy your Morman Stories. It's a great educational series for me. Thank you Carah and John.
😢😢
Camille’s reading habits, so relatable to my entire youth. I also read a book a day/week depending on the time of year!
You sound like an ideal co-host for Mormon Stories Podcast….especially when Carah is unavailable or uninterested.
I loved this video. I listened to this and to part 2 all night long rather than sleeping! Camille is so intelligent, so articulate. Being that intelligent can have its own issues such as feeling pressured to be perfect and others may find it difficult to relate or find common ground. If she were my daughter I would ask her to consider going into a field where she is surrounded by similarly intelligent people, for example the medical field, computers, law, etc. She needs to surround herself with equals. She has just recently left the church and her new journey has just begun. I wish her all the best and I hope she can find contentment and happiness.
Thank you! I'm doing exactly what you suggested. I'm studying archaeology now and I've rarely met such a group of nerds. We have the best conversations and it's so much better than anything I've done before.
Love that Carah’s getting to try out the driver’s seat :).
I'm getting the biggest kick out of the 2 Hill Kimura theory.
I was brought up Catholic and we were taking marriage instruction with an elderly priest. One session the priest explained to us that he had figured out there must have been more than one Garden of Eden. That there God must have made 4 or 5 sets of Adam and Eve, each with their own Gardens of Edens . And this is why people come in different colors. Someone we kept a straight face.
The mental gymnastics that religious belief causes is crazy.
Laughed so hard when John exclaimed "what the hell??!!!" Over the polygamy comment to Camille. My dad would be one of those men who think that way. Very much romanticized the gospel growing up and as a child knew he probably fantasized his future in the celestial kingdom with multiple wives. I very much have said what the hell in my own head over the things my father said and did. 😂
I appreciate Cara's witty side and making the really heavy stories a little more light by adding humor into it. Humor can be healing and bring you into a better frame of mind.
I agree Carah is a great addition
If this doesn’t sum up the attitude of Mormonism I don’t know what does. When she explained how she felt bad not turning her companion roommate in for drinking black chai tea in ignorance. This. This is Mormonism. Modern day Pharisees, counting every joy and tittle and making sure they follow all the checklists so they can be holy enough.
Oh man! This brings back so many thoughts about my own mission at the visitors’ center in DC. Awesome story. Thank you for sharing!
Growing up in the 60's, sexual harrassment was rampant, and it was the woman's cross to bear, because there was no recourse.
Can anyone tell me ( no criticism of podcast - I love them) why in US it is common to use the conditional perfect -“I wish I would have..” when in English it is the pluperfect (or past perfect) that is more appropriate. I mean, why would you have known?
So “I wish I had known..” makes more sense.
More direct versus... Wishy washy female, Mormon, USA approach
Carah is doing great!. Great team work. and very good job John to let it play out without your very seasoned interview style.
So sad that her brain immediately went to thinking it was her fault.
That’s part of the conditioning that women in the lds church receive that starts when they are young girls. Even though women are victimized, there is a kind of subtle conditioning that causes them to question the culpability of the predator and accept that they were at fault, that they are responsible in the interaction where they have been victimized by a man, mormon or not.
I recall when I was first married in late the 1980’s, my bride and I lived in a state outside the intermountain west, in an apartment complex with a large number of other young married mormon couples. One Saturday afternoon, the resident manager panickedly knocked on my apartment door. All she did was beckon me to come with her and told me that the church needed to intervene. I was not in a position of leadership but she and I had a good resident/manager relationship and she respected me and thought me to be more responsible than most.
We went to the next breezeway in our building and there stood wide open the door to an apartment of another young mormon couple. She was half-sprawled on the sofa with her hands raised in a defensive position. She had a black eye, a bloody nose and a split, bleeding lip. She was crying. Her husband stood closely over her with his left hand grasping her upper arm and his right hand raised to strike another blow. There was some fresh blood on his first and second knuckles. I could hear him screaming profanities at her as we approached the breezeway. When he realized we saw what was going on as we approached, he slammed the front door closed. I was ready to engage him and kick his ass. Anyway, the yelling had stopped. Someone else had called the Sheriff and he rolled up right after the door was slammed shut. I told the manager that I’d contact the Elders Quorum President immediately.
The next Saturday afternoon, I was walking back to my place from the laundry room with two stacked laundry baskets. I was using the sidewalk immediately in front of me to navigate as the baskets blocked my view. I heard someone call my name. I stopped, shuffled the load so I could see who was addressing me. It was my neighbor, the gal who’d was taking a beating from her husband the weekend before. She thanked me for coming over with the resident manager and for then calling the Elder’s Quorum President. I told her it was the very least that I could do and that if the Sheriff had not showed up when he did, that I would have physically intervened. She looked surprised. I told her that I was raised that you don’t hit women and raised to intervene if necessary …that if I encountered a situation like I had, I needed to step into the breech and defend a woman from her abuser. She explained to me that according to our Bishop, the beating was her fault. He intimated that she kinda had it coming. She was admonished to be a better wife, helper, cook, cleaner, laundress and yes, even lover. If she had been those things, she’d have not become a punching bag for his frustrations. After all, he was working full time, going to school full time, working to magnify his callings and it was quite the load for him. Apparently she was behind a trivial amount on the laundry as she’d not yet ironed a couple of his white shirts and that precipitated this beating. There had been others as I was briefed by the Elder’s Quorum President as part of being his eyes and ears in the complex where this couple was concerned. Official calling? No. Looking out for this couple? Yep. I had no problem being available to help.
She was a high school aged convert to the lds church and was confused by the suggestion that this was her fault, that she had it coming. I reiterated that no woman deserves to be treated by her husband like that. I told her that I thought the bishop was out of his mind. My wife had come over to help me carry the laundry as I was MIA lol. It was perfect timing. She and I had previously discussed the situation and my wife extended to this gal, our home as a sanctuary if she needed a safe place to go when the next beating loomed on her horizon. While this is my experience with women being victimized by the church’s giving abusive men a free pass, I’ve heard of numerous other cases like the one I described over the years, especially after we resigned our church membership in the late 1990’s.
Wow.
Thank you for defending her. We will always need more people who are willing to do that. Thank you.
Mormons going to historical sites for a vacation is absolutely crazy to me! I’ve always felt bad for my grandparents, like don’t you wanna go relax in a beach or something. 😵💫
Love how articulate this woman is! 💕
Love this switch-a-roo! You guys make such a wonderful team. I love this episode 💜.
Loving this interview.
I have a story about the pressure the sister missionaries tour guides are under to look a certain way . At the sight where my niece served, her mission president encouraged the sisters to do a group weigh-in at least a few times..they had to hop on the scale in front of each other and have their weight recorded and known by the others. She was one of the heavier sisters,so she was very embarrassed of course. Especially since part of her weight really is tied to medical conditions, it’s not easy . That made me so angry when I learned that later. She ended up coming home early from her mission with severe anxiety and health problems.
This is terrible! OMG! Weight shaming is so very harmful for people's mental health. I can't stand it when people do these kinds 9f things. This is probably why there were so many sisters with eating disorders, as mentioned in the interview.
That is awful!! Good grief, it's like the mission leader is stuck in the 50's. I feel so bad for her!
It seems very common but especially in "religious" environments people do not discuss dating honestly from the perspective on both sides. Being single for years now and talking to mormon and non member girls i cringe at how often how this knowledge could have saved a lot of heartache, time and energy for myselfand others.
The guest is so intelligent
My mom was a senior missionary in Nauvoo a few years ago. While she was there, they changed some of the scripts to eliminate some of the faith promoting (false) aspects of the stories.
That’s good, but way too little way too late
I served my mission partly in Kirkland Ohio in 1973 and had a heated conversation with RLDS that ended with my companion and I leaving. The owners of the first Temple in Kirkland are very certain that Brigham Young was a false prophet!
@@skylark1250 lol I was told early on ne er to put your real contact info down on LDS site tours, or put in someone you want to punk. Or go ahead if you need some service done around your house - yard work etc 😉
Also, on my 1972-74 Ohio West Virginia mission, we were told to never proselytize “Negroes” as they were from the seed of Cain and cursed in their first estate. We were to just tell them to go to the church of their choice. This was a strict mission rule!
@@skylark1250 Yes, they have abundant energy, not much intelligence. They are a definite cult that should be avoided at all costs.
@@skylark1250 who was God’s wife?
@@skylark1250 I have not hear that before about people being poisoned ☠️ I’ll have to read up on that.
Another awesome, moving, and inspiring story from MSP! Loved and enjoyed hearing her story. Thanks!
I freaking love Carah 😍 as a young woman I just have an easier time relating to her 😉
Yes she makes it easier to listen to these podcasts. She speaks much quicker and my brain loves the speed at which she speaks and thinks.
We went to Palmyra about 14 years ago. We were members of the church all our adult lives. We were hoping for inspiration and testimony building. No spirityal feelings. Not a thing. Not even in the sacred Grove. The missionaries looked very fearful. I wonder how difficult it is for them now that all the cats are out of the bag. I would rather spend my money and time on the beach in Mexico for sure.
She’s so well spoken. Encouraging me to read more!
I can totally relate to that feeling of never figuring out "I was called to this mission because..."
I was in a mission where a lot of missionaries had limiting health conditions, dietary issues, etc. So that was somewhat reassuring that some thought was put into my health and wellbeing.
I love to read, was always in choir in high school, never dated anyone in high school or college, and I think Camille is really cool. After hearing about normal missionaries her perspective is different!
Wait, I (a nevermo LDS history nerd) went to the Hill Cumorah and asked specifically what happened when they searched the hill with ground penetrating radar. She said she didn't know. I said even if there wasn't a room, the box the plates were in would have showed up. She didn't have an answer for that, or for "what happened to the plates?"
There is an answer, and she knew there was an answer. She didn’t want to tell you as that would have led you away in an instant, but they won’t do that. They will reel you in, telling you only one-half the story until you are baptized and have an in to your money (10% of your gross earnings in tithing). It is only then that they will slowly give you the real story as they did so many of the converts that I would see as I grew into adulthood. Just keep being a never-mo history buff and not a member…
The art of the sale. That's how I see the mission experience now. Mine was 84-86. I was a convered in 1980. The mtc was basically sales training now that I think of it, although I did not see it that way back then.
I agree to an extent. It was more for me but only because I think about it different. You are correct 100% that it is the art of the deal brainwashing but I had lifelong friends and learned so much about life and work ethic and independence and self motivation that I will always benefit from regardless of the truthfulness of the message. Currently going through faith review in my own life but I look back so fondly on my experience and what it did for me but I completely understand why many wouldn’t view or think about their mission experiences similarly.
The guest, Camille ?
Is absolutely beautiful! WOW!!
Very cool podcast. I liked it when Camille talked about drinking chai tea on her mission. It made me think of the picture of Jesus welcoming you into the celestial kingdom and saying, “I’m so glad you didn’t drink coffee.” Right….. starting in 1967, I lived in Nauvoo from age 14-24. Mixed all the mortar for the restoration of the Brigham Young home, Seminary president, went on a mission etc. yadda-yadda. I thought it was so cool, until I found out about Joseph Smith’s bull crap, so much lying and subterfuge, polygamy/polyandry the Masonic temple ceremony, Kirtland Safety Society, Kinderhook, on and on. Mountain Meadows, blood atonement, castrations of young men. Everything became unraveled in 2010, resigned, haven’t looked back. Loved it when the GA said if you leave the church where are you going to go or do! My reply is simply: whatever I want to!
I need to catch one of your lives haha. I was just listening to this, and I wanted to come on here and make a comment about being a girl growing up in the church.
Am I the only one who had NO idea I was allowed to tell a boy “no” when he asked me on a date? No one ever even mentioned that to me. I didn’t know I was allowed to say “no” until after I was married! (I wanted to say yes to my husband lol).
No one taught me how to say “no” or turn down a date. Or that I could.
Did they teach boys how to handle it when being told no? I don’t think they did that either.
Yeah, my paternal grandfather was 27 when he married my grandmother(she was like 14 or 15 at the time). Sick weirdos in the church.
Yuck. Just yuck
While you telling about Palmyra area & story, I was looking at the map & pictures on my phone. I didn't know it was still there. Thank you... 🤓
I was r**** after my baptism and ended up pregnant. I asked for help from the church and it fell on deaf ears. I was forced to give up the baby due to being disabled.
I walked away from activity for close to 30 years. And yes the person knew I was Mormon and that didn't matter.
Man as someone who did the Hill Cumorrah pageant this brought be back! Man the trees story about the Palmyra temple is a classic one.
Great interview.
Years back, covering up all sorts of abuse was common, and I think across all of society. I am not Mormon, but was abused. It was partially dealt with promptly, but the man’s wife was never told. The thought was to protect her. Later they adopted children. Now we know what we thought then was so unwise. I am glad we aren’t prosecuted for what we thought was right.
I think it would be really cool if the church started incorporating the folk magic stuff into the tours. It would inject some life into the narrative for me.
So true!
If I had known about the folk magic as a teenager and been allowed to go to the temple when I first requested (18 right before going into the Army) I would have stayed longer. I CRAVED the ritual the temple would have given and we even had sacred handshakes! That would have THRILLED the 18 year old me. Now I'm diving deep into the folk magic while I'm deconstructing and it's not surprising to anyone who knew me that I'm pagan now. 😂 GIVE ME MAGIC!
John I would vote the stories of Camille be on ur top stories list. What an amazing woman. Maybe the church should have a Burka policy as its way to protect men/priesthood holders from temptation. Its amazing how many intelligent people take Mormonism on Blind Faith and don't question any of this, me included.
My interest in going to Palmyra is for my family history. They were the Pecks/Knights. I would imagine many Mormons want to discover their family roots
My parent’s mission in Tiffin, OH had a board game too. And we had a Book of Mormon one too. I used to play both as a kid. It makes me want to go find those again at my mom’s house.
Thank you Camille for sharing your story. Carah’s demeanor during the interview seemed off topic.
Not a Mormon or Ex-Mormon but John is such a great ally for women. He is so genuine and really understands the issues ❤️
Thank you Ashley!! I’m trying!!!
Yes, agreed. I appreciate his ‘wokeness’ about women’s issues.
I served in Kirtland and Hyrum in the early 2000’s. I was actually formally called to be a historic site missionary for the second half of my mission and gave tours at the John Johnson home/farm. No one knew the correlated church history better than me. Little did I know…….
Camille reminds me of Amy Farrah Fowler from the Bing Bang Theory and I'm not saying that's a bad thing.
She’s easily as brilliant
Just like to say that I had to go get myself a cup of chai when you guys were talking about
The fact that simply teaching Neitzche briefly in English at BYUI in one class is edgy says all you need to know about the church university system. Not really opening and expanding minds, but keeping them sealed shut.
It wouldnt have been odd at all in Provo, but from my time there Provo "gets away" with a lot more stuff to stay relevant
My mission pres in Ecuador (Toby Pingree) told me that if coke was not against the work of wisdom, it should be. I was his ap. he was awesome!
That would be wild to be a missionary up there and tell as close to truthful information as possible and watch people squirm. Some Bishop shows up with his church history tour group or whole busload of people from his ward, and the truthful missionary speaks it out as freely as possible just to see what happens.
I born into Christian fundamentalism and the mind control and cognitive dissonance is so very similar. And on a humorous note: we read the bible from Genesis to Revelation many times, and when I hear many of the names from the Book of Mormon I chuckle as Smith obviously took Bible names and changed the first letter. haha!
I also find it telling that when LDS quote from their books, they are so often a nearly word for word copy of Bible scriptures.
And most Mormons have no idea.
Hi John,
Avid listener here. Please put trigger warnings on episodes like this in the future!
Loved her story ❤️ thank you Camille, for sharing! Is there an Instagram account set up yet to follow you?
I went to a lot of the historical sites in 2022 they had the stone in the hat and a sister missionary tell me it was like Bluetooth where he was able to translate the plates rather than look at it
I love the totally cringe worthy point at the 1:56:00 mark. Great info!
There is no evidence supporting the story that I was taught as a teen about the Hill Cumorah.
John, do we get to find out what the documentary is called???
Poor Mary Whitmer. She gets a visit from Moroni and Camille got hit on by old men. Can you imagine how that made Camille feel?
I served in the NYRM from 2005-2007. It was a great time with great people, but I kind of wish I didn't bother. I put my life's ambitions on hold right at the height of most precious ages in life(20-22). To anyone going on a mission to please family members but don't have you're own testimony, my advice is don't do it. Your family will get over it.
Is anyone making notes or summaries of these interviews? I just can't seem to find or make the time to listen all he way through but would love some insights!
In the description we provide time codes where you can jump to different parts of the interview.
I expanded the description but didn't see anything on these two interviews
Here are highlights I wrote down.
Camille Jones served her mission at the Visitor's Center in Palmyra where the First Vision purportedly occurred. She had to memorize what the Church wanted her to share with visitors and teach from their site manuals. She says at 1:15:00,
"I knew about the seer stone. I did not know about the stone in the hat. So no, never taught anything about that. ….I did hear about treasure digging, but the way we were taught it, and the way that if somebody brought it up we would reply, was that it was a job. He was a hard worker, a farm laborer, it was a labor job. He would go dig. Somebody would pay him to dig a hole."
John Dehlin: "If you were told that Joseph's role was as a manual laborer treasure digging, that's outright dishonest and the church has known at least since the 60's and 70's that Joseph was leading the treasure digs as the one who claimed to have the power to find the buried treasure even though there's no account like in the 16 or 18 digs of him ever actually finding buried treasure. The church has known all this. So for them to communicate to you as a missionary, knowing the truth but then telling you that he was just the shovel-digger, is really deceptive. And it has to be intentionally deceptive because it's embarrassing for them to say he was into folk magic and was claiming to see underground with the stone in the hat, that happens to be the stone in the hat that he claimed to have translated the Book of Mormon when the plates weren't actually in the room. The fact that they didn't tell you any of that but told you a false narrative is kind of troubling to me."
Camille Jones: "Well, all the stuff I didn't know is still troubling to me."
@1:33:04 - Camille Jones: "I had heard at some point, somewhere before my mission, issues with the genetics of the DNA for Native Americans and the issue about there were no horses before the Conquistadors arrived. I don't know if I just kind of dismissed it, or threw it out. It never crossed my mind. And then after, later when I was like yeah, well, I knew that, I knew there were issues. I had just never bothered to really think about it."
John Dehlin: "What you just explained is inoculation theory, which is that if the Church can, and this is what they are doing now, now that they - and we are getting off your story a little bit but this is important - now that the Church, through the internet, has been forced to come clean about the history that it hid from its members for over a hundred years, it has to find a way to save the younger generations and not have them feel like they were deceived like the older generations like me do. And so they are just dropping, 'Oh, stone in a hat, DNA, polygamy,' they are dropping those things to kids when they are teenagers in Seminary and in Sunday School so that they just know a tiny bit about them, and that almost like a vaccine ironically, helps inoculate them for questions that come up later because in their mind they are like, 'Oh, I'm not surprised by a stone in the hat, that was mentioned to me while I was in Seminary.' And you're kind of saying that that's how it was for you."
Camille Jones: "Yeah."
@1:45:10 Camille Jones: "Next place [I served my mission]: Grandin Building, Book of Mormon publication. ....You show them, here's the bookstore. Take them up the stairs and you show them, 'Here's where they bound and here's where they print and here's how it works.' And you're supposed to sprinkle in little stories about how it was translated. They've got a little display area that's set up to look like a kitchen in one of these log or frame houses from the time period. And on it they have a replica of the plates covered with a cloth. And so on quiet days as missionaries we'd go up there and we'd look at this replica, we'd uncover it. ....So going back to the whole stone in the hat thing, the implication of having this on the table is there was no stone in the hat, you had the plates on the table for the translation."
John Dehlin: "But it's worse, because yes, you would want the stone in the hat to be there, but now we know that the plates, when Joseph allegedly translated the Book of Mormon, the plates weren't in the room, they were in the forest and he was looking into the stone in the hat supposedly channeling the plates in the forest. So to even have the plates in the room is deceptive. Right?"
Camille Jones: "That's exactly what I mean. That's why I brought that up."
@@ErikLiberty Thank you!
Yes, there was archaeology. Remember the BOA obtained from a traveling man with Egyptian artifacts. But certainly Joe was living life “by the seat of his pants” and wasn’t worried about anyone digging up the hill Cumorah in his near future.
I've listened to every episode of MSP. This story should be the episode that exmos send to their family members. This woman is even keeled and smart. She has credibility and shows that exmos are not just a bunch of Savage Mormon haters but rather a group of intellectual curious individuals who discovered systemic abuse and institutional manipulation from the highest level of the church from JS to present day.
So glad you enjoyed Daniel!
@@mormonstories thank you for the content you provide.
Hi, just saw your comment. Thank you for the compliments!
Ugh. I regret doing BYUI online. I’m debt free but I’m never going to tell anyone I went there.
Great, great interview! I would place it in the top two or three ever. Camille is a beautiful person -- genuine, serene , intelligent and attractive. Thank you Camille.
I also saw an entirely new side of Carah. She had always struck me as a snarky, foul-mothed participant. But, this time, I was struck with her as a professional, skillful, as well as responsible interviewer. Thank you Carah!
I think I'm just now catching on to this nuance, maybe.
It's not Brethren and Sisters; it's Elders and sisters. The Elders can attend the meetings because they are Elder. Women are just sisters. Men are Elders. Even the language itself is exclusionary and patriarchal. Of course the sisters are excluded because they can't be Elders.
This is similar to why gay people should not be able to married - because then their marriages might be deemed equal with righteous marriage.
Special people want to remain special. You can't maintain special power and special privileges if everyone gets to be equal.
Carah needs to work in how she's "super excited" for this interview. :P
My late grandma is sealed to both her husbands she’d had.
D&C 77:6 has the 7000 years, or 1000 years for every seal reference from in Revelations.
FAIR tries to say it’s not supposed to be literally historic, but human history is over 10,000 years old.
The paintings in the Lascaux Caves are estimated to be 20,000 years old, so yeah, well over 10k.
@@fellowviewer1095 a lot of cave art here in Australia by Aboriginals are up to 60,000 years old. It is an extremely old culture that didn’t change much until the white man came
@@swedishlina oh wow I didn't realize. Thanks for the info. I'll check it out.
@@fellowviewer1095 no problem. It surprised me so much when I moved here.
John's comment about the church using attractive female's to do the tours reminded me of something. If you ever walk by Scientology headquarters in Manhattan, you'll notice that the tables out front are manned by lots of very attractive young females in their Sea Org. uniforms. And then of course there is the "flirty fishing" that was practiced by the Children of God.
💗
I met with lds missionary we went thro lessons n wen it got to js n the golden plates I jus thought how silly this sounds n they left after the lesson n I told them not for me my mind has decent reasoning skills
2:12:49 - Is the background fake? I fell lied to.
I was confused-- Nietzsche in a survey of British literature? Lol
Either way, glad to hear her story. The creepy Utah men and polygamy comments she endured most be so disturbingly common 🤮
Where can I find where it’s written about Joseph using a hat and a stone, where the original 1st vision account or the wives of Joseph smith?
CESLetter.org
We are all NOT ok with BY and polygamy.. Polygamy made it impossible for me to believe.
I didn't realise the Mormons actually had any Historic sites, at least none involving Nephites or Lamenites.
I think it is D&C 77 6-8. I may be off, but I don’t think it is D&C 73.
Men think it’s their right just like the Duggar’s being thought. No means NO!
Haha..I served a "REAL" Mission..tracting in 100 degree weather in the south in a dress and pantyhose. We also felt superior to the Temple Square missionaries who did time in air conditioned buildings...too funny. Now that I'm out of church,, I now see how all groups within church are set up to compete with one another in who sacrifices/is more worthy/blah blah blah like it's some race to win rather than supporting and unconditionally loving all people. That having been said, I probably have better mission stories to tell lol
Thank you for more information it is all very sad. None Mormon . And seeing the new connections to cultures that seem like cults.
To clarify (at least my understanding of) the apologetic narrative on BofM geography:
Mormon said that he buried up all of the "source plates" in the Hill Cumorah, except "these plates," which he gave to his son Moroni. Then Moroni spent the next 20 years making his way to where Smith would eventually be, in New York.
From what I recall, Joseph Smith himself never called the heal by his house "the Hill Cumorah". You only ever prefer to it as the "hill of considerable size". That could be wrong. But that is exactly the explanation I gave. So the "two hill Cumorah theory" Is that there's a hill that Moroni and Mormon called Cumorah (which the Jaradites called Rama) in Central America. And then the hill where Moroni eventually buried the golden plates was mistakenly called the Hill Cumorah.
Mormon 6:6
"... having been commanded of the Lord that I should not suffer the records which had been handed down by our fathers, which were sacred, to fall into the hands of the Lamanites, (for the Lamanites would destroy them) therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni."
D&C 77:6 says the earth will have 7000 years of "temporal existence". However, if you keep reading to verse 12 you'll find that less than 6000 years have actually passed, because the last 1000 years basically begins at the second coming: "in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God sanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and judge all things..." So, the D&C actually claims the earth is less than 6000 years old.
Let me help you. Someone that was anti-mo owned the land never did any archeology. Neither did the church.
🙄🙄🙄🤦🏻♀️
I know y'all laugh at the Heartland Theory, but honestly, it's a much better fit than any of the other theories based off what the text actually says and what we know about Joseph's reasoning. It doesn't seem that Joseph was going for an exact match anyway (I doubt he had maps in front of him during the "translation" process). The Two Cumorah theory is a ridiculous extrapolation of the data that has no basis in the text or in Joseph's record. No limited geography model explains Joseph's understanding or the textual evidence. But the smoking gun for me is the fact that BoM is an answer to theological questions surrounding the mound builder myth. That maps to the heartland, not to Mesoamerica. If we accept that it's all BS, then I believe that Heartland is less BS than the other BS.
I have been in there and the sister say the Same thing and they have the kids hide the plate hint hint they hide the book lol