Yes. I think that scene is probably the worst "fight" scene I've ever seen in my life. It looks awful. She looks (and is) soooo weak. She should've worked out to try and get strong like Daisy Ridley and Katherine Mcnamara did. The coreography is also awful and stupid.
@@ramonapiercesalvatore5917 Well, the scene was more about flirting than fighting, the fight is not meant to be realistic. And I also don’t think a woman of that time would have training about fighting. Catherine probably knew a little bit from her mother.
Me, but wanting and waiting to see season 2, 3rd Feb 2021. I’ve googled everywhere and cannot find how to see it. Amazon Prime, which I‘ve got, just comes up with ‘subscribe to Starz’ but doesn’t say how to when you’re on Amazon. All I want is a month free trial and I’ll binge watch every episode. Or even in a 7 day trial!
I wish they had gotten a more animated actress to play the role of Katherine. She is very pretty and that's how she appears all the time as if she's sitting for a portrait.
The point was her to appear as a living portrait. Women in that time period were meant to be nothing more than eye candy and to bear children. She made herself more
@@vikagrinberg9203 well she definitely look like a portrait. I just re-watched both seasons. Finally somewhere in season 2 she actually moved one of her eyebrows! I still think it would have been better with a little more acting from the actress. But it wouldn't surprise me that that might have been what the director wanted. Just stand there and look pretty. Very beautiful very boring.
Her accent is so bad I’m sorry lol it ruined the whole show for me edit: guys if you think she has an amazing spanish accent that's great but this is just my opinion lol I've gotten a ton of messages about the same thing. I felt that she was trying so hard to nail the accent that it affected her acting and made it very stiff and unnatural.
The sparing scene was among the most ridiculous and incorrect in the entire show. It is there to lay the base for Battle of Flodden in 1513, to push narrative of Katherine as warrior Queen as successful regent. (It is a build-up for season 2.) In reality, she screwed up! She did really poorly. All good decisions were done by Henry VIII until he left for France or by Earl of Surrey, who won that battle. She was never even in the North. But close to a town called Buckingham. She didn't send English navy with artillery to the North, Henry VIII send that navy and cannons form continent, he sent supplies and gold to North in advance and chose the very shrewd experienced commander and gave him military command over North. But North needed reinforcement from South and the sole reason they didn't get it, was not because there would be some delays in raising levies, but because it took Katherine over a month to send the order! (Despite Scottish King clearly stating his intention and giving her heads up whole month advance that he will invade!) She only sent the order on 3rd September! Way too late! And to raise levies without royal command was treason... So, of course, the army from the south couldn't get to battle on 9th September! The distance is just too big to cover even if you had a spare horse. ...Her father's chronicler might have written about her giving a speech to troops, but he wasn't in England(ever) gives no details(not even where happened at approximately when)and nobody else English or foreign mention her being in North(like foreign ambassadors at England at the time). I call it bull! (Though probably she gave some speech to reinforcement troops near Buckingham...after 3rd September, Venetian heard about some speech). If it was based upon a report by Luis Caroz(Spanish ambassador at England at the time), there would be lots of details. Caroz always described lots of details, about anything happening in English court. He is one of the best sources on the early reign of Henry VIII. But why wouldn't he write up several scrolls of parchment about accomplishments of his country's princess, with major details? That is fishy!!! Very likely Katherine spent a big portion her regency expecting the crisis to solve itself. (not entirely true, she expected levies to solve themselves, as if she didn't know she needed to sent the order otherwise it would be treason for English lords to raise levies. She instead focused on getting more supplies(which were not needed, Henry VIII prepared enough...) Meanwhile, odds were on the Scottish side. Had any other commander but Surrey stood against them, English would loose and we'd remember her as horrible regent. Like this, her poor organizing skills and incompetence got swept under carpet.
@Lindsey Scanlan Isabella was actualy smart enough to leave fighting to those more competent(and didn't risk herself directly in battle). But she did lots of logistics behind military campaigns and travelled with troops to boost their morals, leading the campaigns herself. So on one hand she was very involved with military and did things to help achieve military success, on other hand she never fought directly herself. So I am not so sure if I'd call her warrior Queen, but she was certainly competent ruler and knew how to get victory done. But many royals were great in certain things and their children didn't have half of their skill. ... Given that King organized pretty much everything that is nowadays being contributed to Katherine, I wouldn't be at all sure about her being the one who sent supplies. (We know the King sent at least part of them.) And it might be also why council didn't get that involved. All the mayor decisons were done and set in place in advance, except one certain call to arms(yes, middland troops). ... As for Earl of Surrey. He was lastly being disgraced in year 1489, when King Henry VII sent him basically into exile to the North, to surpress revolt which already killed his predecesor. He stayed there as King's lieutenant and kept King's peace for 10 whole years(to 1499). He was among men who helped raise levies and commanded armies in years 1496-1497, when Scotland invaded England in support of Perkin Warbeck. He besieged several castles even. But upon return at court in 1499, he quickly became on of most trusted men in Tudor court, being not only skilled military man and diplomat. He acompanied Englsih princess to wed Scottish King in 1503 to Scotland and met Scottish King perosnally He became lord Treasurer and Earl Marshal under Henry VIII. Though Surrey was left behind and didn't go to France, I'd notcall that digracing old duke. Henry VIII couldn't have chosen better man to stay behind in case of Scots attacking. Because that man knew the terrain, knew all the lords around North, knew the North and its situation, knew and fought the enemy before. Actaully chosing him was great choice to protect North. ... That entire England was useless and wouldn't know what to do in case of invasion without Katherine's guiding hand? That is beyond ridiculous. They last defeated that very same Scottish King in 1497! Not even Henry Tudor had to be involved, his commanders took care of the situation. And though yes, most of King's troops and commanders left for France, some has returned with English navy, it didn't bring just artilery but troops also. And who sent English ships? The King! Still Scots had way more men, got better weapons etc and Surrey had to use all his skill to win. ... But how on Earth do you think Katherine's skills and knowledge could help in that? Her skills didn't help her sent any men to the North which would actually got there on time. She didn't make strategy for that battle. She couldn't. Earl of Surrey himself didn't know against what type of troops he would be fighting until Scottish King stupidly allowed English messenger into camp to discuss when the battle will be fought. (That was common practise back then. You'd agree when and where to meet.) And biggest part of battle strategy in his case was terrain! (also not something Katherine could have helped with)King James thought he had the terrain advantage, because he was up the hill. But when he woke up on day battle, English army actually was on other side of hill(so all their cannons were pointing in wrong direction, and they couldn't just easily move them). Hence Scottish decided to march down towards English. Except Surrey knew the terrain better than them and he literally made them walk into muddy trap. 2/3 of Scottish army got stuck. They broke formation and suddenly their new long spears were useless to them. ... Katherine wouldn't be able to advise man with 50+ years of military experience about how to deal with military, even if her mother educated her military matters. He was away at North. What good advise could she give him from South? "Don't get killed"? ... By the way...for Tudor people upon just seeing flag didn't really have large boosting effect. But to not be too strict upon the matter. In some historical battles, some flags did have large boosting effect, but those were usually holy relics which were believed by people in that country to hold some devine power. Not regular flags. ... And overall that is all that Katherine did. Sent order too late and sewed flags. I fail to see how it became big contribution to victory at Battle of Flodden Field and why it is considered succesful regency.
@Lindsey Scanlan I realise it isn't your fault for not knowing this, even many documentaries have it wrong. Which feds me up. The evidence for Katherine's supposed speech comes from unlikely source-outside of England(chronicler working for her family, writing history to his master's liking). More so it is so vogue I'd say it is impossible that original source of information would be spanish ambassador in England-Luis Caroz. Which is highly credible source. His descriptions of early reign of Henry VIII are basically best we have about that time. However Caroz was man obsessed with details. He would write place, date, amount of troops, what she was wearing, how was the weather, what came before this, what came after this... But that chronicler gaves 0 of those information. Why not? ...Very likely because he made it up. No other source in England, not even other foreign ambassador mention Katherine either leading army or giving speech to it. Why wouldn't they report it to their masters? ... Please don't refer to Middlands as main counties. At least York would be also considered very important, and so would Durham and Newcastle upon Tyne. Unlike what many fanpages online tell you, there is no evidence for Katherine ever leading any army. Speech at least had that one chronicler. ... You're being confused. There were two Thomas Howards, and both later became Duke of Norfolk and hold title of Earl of Surrey prior that. At time of Flodden, Thomas Howard the Elder, was the Earl of Surrey. And would be refered to by his title-Lord Surrey. His eldest son, heir and namesake was refered to as Lord Howard before 1513. However after Flodden Field the father was given back Duchy of Norfolk(title which family lost at Bosworth) and son was allowed to use lower title of his father-Earl of Surrey, as was common practise back then and some nobilities do this even today. Later the son became 3rd Duke. Yes, indeed the family was in dire times after Bosworth because they fought alongside Richard III, John Howard, Duke of Norfolk was killed, title lost, lands consfiscated, Thomas Howard(the elder) even was imprisoned for several years. However he quickly regained King's trust after he was released(even though in my opinion sending him to North, seems like attempt by King to indirectly kill him, or at least exile him). But family already gained prominence in 1495 when Thomas Howard the younger, was allowed to marry one of York's princesses Anne of York. In 1499 entire family returned to court and ever since then only climbed up in prominence. Only thing that wasn't restored to them was title of Duke and castle of Framlinghem. That they gained only after Flodden Field in ceremony in 1514 officially. By the way both Howards fought in that battle as did Edmund Howard, father of Katherine Howard, Queen of England. But at this time Thomas Howard the younger was already referenced as Lord Admiral(and he travelled to England on ship from France with artilery). His predecesor for this title was his own brother Edward, close personal friend of Henry VIII, but he died in naval battle in april 1513, hence several months prior. (And no title of admiral was not hereditary.) ... As for Katherine it is understatement that she advised the council. Katherine in years 1509-1513 was King's main advisor. He was so in love with her, that everything and I mean everything that was going on at council meetings went through her first. Her husband was so influenced by her, thaht she might have just as well be at room at coucil meetings with him. She didn't however attend those council meetings. At least not until she was regent. And yes she sent King reports, and he sent her letters about what was going on in France. ... As for this secondary army, that is the one I am talking about when I talk about reinforcement from Middlands. And once again, yes, she organized it. But way too late to have the desired effect. ... As for the battle itself, I've seen very good video going over the details of the battle here on youtube. They were on the location, discussing exactly what occured. And you're partially right, when Scots were going downhill in their formation with those extremely long spears(I can't remember the name of that weapon) toward English, it must have seemed as they would easily win. Armies didn't meat at this point. But Scots progressed. And oops. Suddenly they were in the mud. Surrey lured them to that mud. 2/3 of Scottish army got stuck 1/3 got away, those were the ones who survived the battle. But rest, yes rest was massacred. Surrey didn't take prisoners in this battle, so big portion of Scottish nobility was killed. His supposed cruelty might had to do with fact England and Scotland have peace agreement which sCots broke, to support their long-term ally-France. And French sailors were the ones which killed Surrey's son Edward... ... But he done actually something else after the battle which is being overlooked. It would be Surrey who would refuse Katherine's order to bring her Scottish King's head. When Katherine describes Englishmen as being too soft hearted and not sending her the head, in letter to the King...who else could be in charge after Flodden and refuse to send it? Instead he sent her mere cloak. Because parading Scottish King's body or parts of it around England would be bad for ScottishxEnglish relationship in long term. Might seem weird because he showed them no mercy, but peace agreement at the time was seen as sacred and Scottish King got even excomunicated for breaking it. (That is why he couldn't be burried properly, they probably done so in secret because it wasn't allowed. Though Henry VIII asked pope for permission to bury his brother in law.) English at this event were seen as defending their Kingdom, and Scots as in wrong. Oatbreakers. But now English Princess was Queen Regent of Scotland, pregnant, and her infant son was King of Scotland. And both of those children were Henry VIII's nephews. Given how Richard III would be presented to Henry as child as total villain, we can rule out that he would be the uncle who would go and fight his nephews. At least this time the very idea was totally against his character. And Surrey knew this. And he made big gamble. To do what his King would wish to do, instead of what his Queen and Regent ordered him to do. ... ...And Surrey is the one who got honoured after this battle and Katherine is the one who is cut off from decision making process completely. She would never be King's main advisor again. She tried to give him advise, but he was not willing to listen to anything she had to say. To be fair it wasn't just her screwing up her regency or be blood-thirsty against his brother in law. On top of that she also sided with her father, making excuses for him, after he royally screwed Henry VIII over. They were supposed to attack France jointly. But Ferdiand only took over Navarre in 1512 and afterwards all his promised help and support was 0. He left Henry VIII to fight totally alone. And Katheirne couldn't see how bad it could have turned up and why Henry VIII was so angry about this. Just as she didn't see why it was so bad to sent order to raise levies so late. Just as she didn't see how much worse could Scottish English relationship become if Scottish King's corpse was being paraded around. She shown such level of short-sideness and not understanding both military and diplomacy, that I am not surprised she was not allowed to advise anymore. Henry VIII wasn't smartest in these matters, but on other side he wasn't idiot. So he started taking advise from somebody who was better in this-Wolsey.
@Lindsey Scanlan I am just obsessed fan. And it is nice to meet somebody willing to listen. Many people right out call me liar. So widely spread are many misconceptions about Tudor period. Partly due to movies and tv shows. I once spent about month trying to backtrack where the information about Katherine's fasting came from. I knew I read it somewhere, but I couldn't remember where. But I found it. Never heard from that person who said I was making it up though, after that.
It's a television show, who gives a damn how "innaccurate" you claim it is? Remove the damned stick from your ass and stop expecting a television drama to pass itself off as a documentary. It entertains and that is all it is expected to do. Go read a book if you want to be educated. Smdh
@Lindsey Scanlan Since when do I need to be asked for my opinion to share my opinion? Um, oh, that's right, I don't. No one asked for YOUR opinion either yet here you are running your damned mouth. Newsflash: its the internet, a place where people share opinions. Don't like it, then leave. Furthermore sitting down to watch a television show with the idea of nitpicking it, rather than simply enjoying it for what it is, is the definition of insanity. You crazy loon.
I really disliked this guy’s performance, it took me out of the story. It was a shame that the actress had to suffer with a co-lead. I loved her acting.
Haha you can see whatever is between them is definitely boiling over, lol. I hope they have a long and happy relationship/life together.
I'm so bewitched by the melody of her singsongy voice. It's so beautiful. I can listen to her talk every night to sleep, like a lullaby.
I’m here after finding out they’re finally together in real life 🥺💕💕💕
Same
OMG REALLY?????
I just hope it doesn’t end up with a 7 year long divorce
They are? That's nice💗💖💘
@@Кря-ш2н let's hope that their future marriage would be longer than 24 years 😂
I am in love with Ruairi, he's honestly perfect imo. Totally my type
omg me too
He’s her type too lol they are together in real life lol
@@susanpark3451 i knowez 🥺🌹❤
i love their chemistry!😍😍
Seeing them like this makes me realize he’d overpower her in a second
Yes. I think that scene is probably the worst "fight" scene I've ever seen in my life. It looks awful. She looks (and is) soooo weak.
She should've worked out to try and get strong like Daisy Ridley and Katherine Mcnamara did. The coreography is also awful and stupid.
@@ramonapiercesalvatore5917 Well, the scene was more about flirting than fighting, the fight is not meant to be realistic. And I also don’t think a woman of that time would have training about fighting. Catherine probably knew a little bit from her mother.
Her voice is music
yes!
She should be a singer or do asmr
I love this show! 😍
What’s the name of this show
@@sxftpink1737 The spanish princess
😁Me too! My mom ended up getting into the show with me 🥰
Same even tho it’s not historically accurate it’s still a good show imo
they’re together in real life OMGOMGOMGOMG 😍😍😍🥺🥺🥺
their laughs at the end 😍😍
I am painfully attracted to them both. I am wrecked beyond repair.
I feel you.
The tension
I love these two so much, I almost had to stop watching season 2 cuz it was so sad
I love her outfit 😍😍
Yaass
Yeah it’s so cute
i love her without it...GOT style
This was cool to rewatch the rehearsal of this scene
Omg he is the most beautiful man 🥰 I would let him overpower me every second of the day.
Boy they are great actors and incredible the way they handle those swords 😍
I love gorgeous Irish actor Ruairí O’Connor but not his red hair dye for Henry VIII role.
king henry viii had naturally red hair
Bia Lessa I know.
Can I just say,... Wow!!! 😂
I love Ruairi and Charlotte's chemistry!
Who's here after season 2 was released.
Me, but wanting and waiting to see season 2, 3rd Feb 2021. I’ve googled everywhere and cannot find how to see it. Amazon Prime, which I‘ve got, just comes up with ‘subscribe to Starz’ but doesn’t say how to when you’re on Amazon. All I want is a month free trial and I’ll binge watch every episode. Or even in a 7 day trial!
Their both so cute 😭😭😭😭🥰🥰🥰🥰❤️❤️❤️
I wish they were a real couple in real life they look so cute together ❤️
i think they are together irl
They literally are
@@ihateolives7805 like... really?
@@giovanaferreira779 yes, I’m sorry to break it to you 😔
@@ihateolives7805 but i ship them lol, it's because i didn't see anything on the internet
Charlotte Hope 😍
Is he arnie Johnson from conjuring the devil made me do it???
Yes lol
Nice work
Why did I think he was Jonathan Groff
I love them too much
What episode were they practicing?
SKLVFY HELP I WISH I WAS THAT GIRL😫
SAME
YESSSS
this my baby daddy?
It’s even better when they do it in real life.
I wish they had gotten a more animated actress to play the role of Katherine. She is very pretty and that's how she appears all the time as if she's sitting for a portrait.
The point was her to appear as a living portrait. Women in that time period were meant to be nothing more than eye candy and to bear children. She made herself more
@@vikagrinberg9203 well she definitely look like a portrait. I just re-watched both seasons. Finally somewhere in season 2 she actually moved one of her eyebrows! I still think it would have been better with a little more acting from the actress. But it wouldn't surprise me that that might have been what the director wanted. Just stand there and look pretty. Very beautiful very boring.
Arya and Gendry in a nutshell.
OMG ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
henry needs to use the force- use his feelings
What show is this scene?? Is on Netflix or HBO??
The first seaoson is on HBO and the second one aires next week
The Spanish Princess, it's available on Amazon too (at least in Germany).
The Spanish Princess on Starz
It’s on Straz
Does anyone know when or how these two got together in real life?
Yesss i am shocked... their chemistry is beyond ❤
Sword fight in Spain princess
0:28 so fake lol. "Warrior lady, you knock me across the room!"
Best part 1:13
He needs me.....
😍😍😍👑👑👑👑👑
oh
Когда 3 сезон?
👉👈❤
Wtf is going on they are dating in real life 😂
Yes ❤😂
@@KIgarashi10969 so sweet 😭
Her accent is so bad I’m sorry lol it ruined the whole show for me
edit: guys if you think she has an amazing spanish accent that's great but this is just my opinion lol I've gotten a ton of messages about the same thing. I felt that she was trying so hard to nail the accent that it affected her acting and made it very stiff and unnatural.
I have friends from Spain who sound just like that
Abby C Huh interesting. I honestly thought she was trying so hard on her accent that it affected her acting. It just felt super inauthentic to me idk.
i'm from spain and i think she did a very good job accent-wise, i thought she was actually spanish at first
@@nielsen_ really? wow someone that I know who's from spain and watched the show told me she thought her accent sounded super weird.
it’s actually very accurate. I actually sound a bit like her 😂 I’m not spanish though, I speak portuguese
Mmmrreeoowwrrr..
She is so skinny
The sparing scene was among the most ridiculous and incorrect in the entire show.
It is there to lay the base for Battle of Flodden in 1513, to push narrative of Katherine as warrior Queen as successful regent. (It is a build-up for season 2.)
In reality, she screwed up! She did really poorly.
All good decisions were done by Henry VIII until he left for France or by Earl of Surrey, who won that battle. She was never even in the North. But close to a town called Buckingham.
She didn't send English navy with artillery to the North, Henry VIII send that navy and cannons form continent, he sent supplies and gold to North in advance and chose the very shrewd experienced commander and gave him military command over North.
But North needed reinforcement from South and the sole reason they didn't get it, was not because there would be some delays in raising levies, but because it took Katherine over a month to send the order!
(Despite Scottish King clearly stating his intention and giving her heads up whole month advance that he will invade!) She only sent the order on 3rd September! Way too late! And to raise levies without royal command was treason...
So, of course, the army from the south couldn't get to battle on 9th September! The distance is just too big to cover even if you had a spare horse.
...Her father's chronicler might have written about her giving a speech to troops, but he wasn't in England(ever) gives no details(not even where happened at approximately when)and nobody else English or foreign mention her being in North(like foreign ambassadors at England at the time). I call it bull!
(Though probably she gave some speech to reinforcement troops near Buckingham...after 3rd September, Venetian heard about some speech).
If it was based upon a report by Luis Caroz(Spanish ambassador at England at the time), there would be lots of details. Caroz always described lots of details, about anything happening in English court.
He is one of the best sources on the early reign of Henry VIII. But why wouldn't he write up several scrolls of parchment about accomplishments of his country's princess, with major details? That is fishy!!!
Very likely Katherine spent a big portion her regency expecting the crisis to solve itself.
(not entirely true, she expected levies to solve themselves, as if she didn't know she needed to sent the order otherwise it would be treason for English lords to raise levies. She instead focused on getting more supplies(which were not needed, Henry VIII prepared enough...)
Meanwhile, odds were on the Scottish side. Had any other commander but Surrey stood against them, English would loose and we'd remember her as horrible regent. Like this, her poor organizing skills and incompetence got swept under carpet.
@Lindsey Scanlan Isabella was actualy smart enough to leave fighting to those more competent(and didn't risk herself directly in battle). But she did lots of logistics behind military campaigns and travelled with troops to boost their morals, leading the campaigns herself. So on one hand she was very involved with military and did things to help achieve military success, on other hand she never fought directly herself. So I am not so sure if I'd call her warrior Queen, but she was certainly competent ruler and knew how to get victory done.
But many royals were great in certain things and their children didn't have half of their skill.
...
Given that King organized pretty much everything that is nowadays being contributed to Katherine, I wouldn't be at all sure about her being the one who sent supplies.
(We know the King sent at least part of them.)
And it might be also why council didn't get that involved. All the mayor decisons were done and set in place in advance, except one certain call to arms(yes, middland troops).
...
As for Earl of Surrey. He was lastly being disgraced in year 1489, when King Henry VII sent him basically into exile to the North, to surpress revolt which already killed his predecesor. He stayed there as King's lieutenant and kept King's peace for 10 whole years(to 1499). He was among men who helped raise levies and commanded armies in years 1496-1497, when Scotland invaded England in support of Perkin Warbeck. He besieged several castles even.
But upon return at court in 1499, he quickly became on of most trusted men in Tudor court, being not only skilled military man and diplomat. He acompanied Englsih princess to wed Scottish King in 1503 to Scotland and met Scottish King perosnally He became lord Treasurer and Earl Marshal under Henry VIII.
Though Surrey was left behind and didn't go to France, I'd notcall that digracing old duke.
Henry VIII couldn't have chosen better man to stay behind in case of Scots attacking.
Because that man knew the terrain, knew all the lords around North, knew the North and its situation, knew and fought the enemy before.
Actaully chosing him was great choice to protect North.
...
That entire England was useless and wouldn't know what to do in case of invasion without Katherine's guiding hand?
That is beyond ridiculous.
They last defeated that very same Scottish King in 1497! Not even Henry Tudor had to be involved, his commanders took care of the situation.
And though yes, most of King's troops and commanders left for France, some has returned with English navy, it didn't bring just artilery but troops also. And who sent English ships? The King!
Still Scots had way more men, got better weapons etc and Surrey had to use all his skill to win.
...
But how on Earth do you think Katherine's skills and knowledge could help in that?
Her skills didn't help her sent any men to the North which would actually got there on time.
She didn't make strategy for that battle. She couldn't. Earl of Surrey himself didn't know against what type of troops he would be fighting until Scottish King stupidly allowed English messenger into camp to discuss when the battle will be fought.
(That was common practise back then. You'd agree when and where to meet.)
And biggest part of battle strategy in his case was terrain! (also not something Katherine could have helped with)King James thought he had the terrain advantage, because he was up the hill.
But when he woke up on day battle, English army actually was on other side of hill(so all their cannons were pointing in wrong direction, and they couldn't just easily move them). Hence Scottish decided to march down towards English. Except Surrey knew the terrain better than them and he literally made them walk into muddy trap. 2/3 of Scottish army got stuck. They broke formation and suddenly their new long spears were useless to them.
...
Katherine wouldn't be able to advise man with 50+ years of military experience about how to deal with military, even if her mother educated her military matters.
He was away at North. What good advise could she give him from South? "Don't get killed"?
...
By the way...for Tudor people upon just seeing flag didn't really have large boosting effect.
But to not be too strict upon the matter. In some historical battles, some flags did have large boosting effect, but those were usually holy relics which were believed by people in that country to hold some devine power. Not regular flags.
...
And overall that is all that Katherine did. Sent order too late and sewed flags.
I fail to see how it became big contribution to victory at Battle of Flodden Field and why it is considered succesful regency.
@Lindsey Scanlan I realise it isn't your fault for not knowing this, even many documentaries have it wrong. Which feds me up. The evidence for Katherine's supposed speech comes from unlikely source-outside of England(chronicler working for her family, writing history to his master's liking).
More so it is so vogue I'd say it is impossible that original source of information would be spanish ambassador in England-Luis Caroz. Which is highly credible source. His descriptions of early reign of Henry VIII are basically best we have about that time. However Caroz was man obsessed with details. He would write place, date, amount of troops, what she was wearing, how was the weather, what came before this, what came after this...
But that chronicler gaves 0 of those information. Why not?
...Very likely because he made it up.
No other source in England, not even other foreign ambassador mention Katherine either leading army or giving speech to it.
Why wouldn't they report it to their masters?
...
Please don't refer to Middlands as main counties. At least York would be also considered very important, and so would Durham and Newcastle upon Tyne.
Unlike what many fanpages online tell you, there is no evidence for Katherine ever leading any army.
Speech at least had that one chronicler.
...
You're being confused. There were two Thomas Howards, and both later became Duke of Norfolk and hold title of Earl of Surrey prior that.
At time of Flodden, Thomas Howard the Elder, was the Earl of Surrey. And would be refered to by his title-Lord Surrey. His eldest son, heir and namesake was refered to as Lord Howard before 1513.
However after Flodden Field the father was given back Duchy of Norfolk(title which family lost at Bosworth) and son was allowed to use lower title of his father-Earl of Surrey, as was common practise back then and some nobilities do this even today. Later the son became 3rd Duke.
Yes, indeed the family was in dire times after Bosworth because they fought alongside Richard III, John Howard, Duke of Norfolk was killed, title lost, lands consfiscated, Thomas Howard(the elder) even was imprisoned for several years. However he quickly regained King's trust after he was released(even though in my opinion sending him to North, seems like attempt by King to indirectly kill him, or at least exile him). But family already gained prominence in 1495 when Thomas Howard the younger, was allowed to marry one of York's princesses Anne of York. In 1499 entire family returned to court and ever since then only climbed up in prominence. Only thing that wasn't restored to them was title of Duke and castle of Framlinghem.
That they gained only after Flodden Field in ceremony in 1514 officially.
By the way both Howards fought in that battle as did Edmund Howard, father of Katherine Howard, Queen of England. But at this time Thomas Howard the younger was already referenced as Lord Admiral(and he travelled to England on ship from France with artilery). His predecesor for this title was his own brother Edward, close personal friend of Henry VIII, but he died in naval battle in april 1513, hence several months prior. (And no title of admiral was not hereditary.)
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As for Katherine it is understatement that she advised the council.
Katherine in years 1509-1513 was King's main advisor. He was so in love with her, that everything and I mean everything that was going on at council meetings went through her first.
Her husband was so influenced by her, thaht she might have just as well be at room at coucil meetings with him. She didn't however attend those council meetings. At least not until she was regent. And yes she sent King reports, and he sent her letters about what was going on in France.
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As for this secondary army, that is the one I am talking about when I talk about reinforcement from Middlands. And once again, yes, she organized it. But way too late to have the desired effect.
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As for the battle itself, I've seen very good video going over the details of the battle here on youtube. They were on the location, discussing exactly what occured.
And you're partially right, when Scots were going downhill in their formation with those extremely long spears(I can't remember the name of that weapon) toward English, it must have seemed as they would easily win. Armies didn't meat at this point. But Scots progressed. And oops. Suddenly they were in the mud. Surrey lured them to that mud. 2/3 of Scottish army got stuck 1/3 got away, those were the ones who survived the battle. But rest, yes rest was massacred. Surrey didn't take prisoners in this battle, so big portion of Scottish nobility was killed. His supposed cruelty might had to do with fact England and Scotland have peace agreement which sCots broke, to support their long-term ally-France. And French sailors were the ones which killed Surrey's son Edward...
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But he done actually something else after the battle which is being overlooked.
It would be Surrey who would refuse Katherine's order to bring her Scottish King's head.
When Katherine describes Englishmen as being too soft hearted and not sending her the head, in letter to the King...who else could be in charge after Flodden and refuse to send it?
Instead he sent her mere cloak. Because parading Scottish King's body or parts of it around England would be bad for ScottishxEnglish relationship in long term. Might seem weird because he showed them no mercy, but peace agreement at the time was seen as sacred and Scottish King got even excomunicated for breaking it. (That is why he couldn't be burried properly, they probably done so in secret because it wasn't allowed. Though Henry VIII asked pope for permission to bury his brother in law.) English at this event were seen as defending their Kingdom, and Scots as in wrong. Oatbreakers.
But now English Princess was Queen Regent of Scotland, pregnant, and her infant son was King of Scotland. And both of those children were Henry VIII's nephews. Given how Richard III would be presented to Henry as child as total villain, we can rule out that he would be the uncle who would go and fight his nephews. At least this time the very idea was totally against his character.
And Surrey knew this. And he made big gamble. To do what his King would wish to do, instead of what his Queen and Regent ordered him to do.
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...And Surrey is the one who got honoured after this battle and Katherine is the one who is cut off from decision making process completely. She would never be King's main advisor again. She tried to give him advise, but he was not willing to listen to anything she had to say.
To be fair it wasn't just her screwing up her regency or be blood-thirsty against his brother in law. On top of that she also sided with her father, making excuses for him, after he royally screwed Henry VIII over. They were supposed to attack France jointly. But Ferdiand only took over Navarre in 1512 and afterwards all his promised help and support was 0. He left Henry VIII to fight totally alone.
And Katheirne couldn't see how bad it could have turned up and why Henry VIII was so angry about this. Just as she didn't see why it was so bad to sent order to raise levies so late.
Just as she didn't see how much worse could Scottish English relationship become if Scottish King's corpse was being paraded around.
She shown such level of short-sideness and not understanding both military and diplomacy, that I am not surprised she was not allowed to advise anymore. Henry VIII wasn't smartest in these matters, but on other side he wasn't idiot. So he started taking advise from somebody who was better in this-Wolsey.
@Lindsey Scanlan I am just obsessed fan.
And it is nice to meet somebody willing to listen. Many people right out call me liar. So widely spread are many misconceptions about Tudor period. Partly due to movies and tv shows.
I once spent about month trying to backtrack where the information about Katherine's fasting came from. I knew I read it somewhere, but I couldn't remember where. But I found it. Never heard from that person who said I was making it up though, after that.
It's a television show, who gives a damn how "innaccurate" you claim it is? Remove the damned stick from your ass and stop expecting a television drama to pass itself off as a documentary. It entertains and that is all it is expected to do. Go read a book if you want to be educated. Smdh
@Lindsey Scanlan Since when do I need to be asked for my opinion to share my opinion? Um, oh, that's right, I don't. No one asked for YOUR opinion either yet here you are running your damned mouth. Newsflash: its the internet, a place where people share opinions. Don't like it, then leave. Furthermore sitting down to watch a television show with the idea of nitpicking it, rather than simply enjoying it for what it is, is the definition of insanity. You crazy loon.
I really disliked this guy’s performance, it took me out of the story. It was a shame that the actress had to suffer with a co-lead. I loved her acting.