I live in San Francisco and every November I make it a point to go down to Sutro Point, where there is a small memorial, the centerpiece of which is the bridge structure of the USS San Francisco, removed during her repair and placed there, showing the huge, jagged holes made by the heavy-calibre Japanese shells that wiped out Admiral Callaghan and his staff. There is a flagstaff mounted on a dias which has a brass arrowhead, pointing along the Great Circle route to Ironbottom Sound in the Solomons. Sometimes I go in the evening and stand on the high cliff, looking out over the vast Pacific, golden in the Westering Sun, and I think back in reverence and gratitude to those desperate days and our forefathers who met them, and tears come to my eyes.
I'm right with you my friend. I retired in 2018 to the Philippines, ending up settled quite comfortably in Cavite. Recently I saw a lightning storm on the horizon. I watched fascinated, remembering hearing tales from elderly filipinos who remembered watching night after night for three months all the flashes from Bataan, visible on the horizon from Manila. It must have looked just like this, every night for months.
@@joebombero1have been out to the concrete battleship, El Fraile Island? It was still operational when ordered to surrender. It is a burned out structure now.
I used to work at Cincinnati international airport and had a chance encounter with a Pearl Harbor veteran. We chatted for a few minutes and he mentioned he was also on the USS San Francisco at Guadalcanal. I asked him how old he was when the battle took place, he told me he was an 18 year old I think gunners mate inside #1 turret. He told me “We lost our captain and admiral and they used a fire hose to clean out what was left of our bridge.”
My grandfather, Sea2C Clifford Russell Anderson served aboard the USS Atlanta during the “Bar room brawl” at Guadalcanal. He abandoned ship after all hopes of saving it were lost. He was mostly quiet about his time in the war. As a young curious boy I waited patiently for the times that he would open up. I recall him saying they were a “sitting duck” and took a pounding from both sides. The fact the ship lost power and he was pulled from communications to assist topside spared his life. He passed in 1987 when I was 21. I miss him.
@@jonathanstrong4812not sure what you're trying to accomplish with that post, but it was incredibly insensitive to those that lost their lives during that horrendous battle. I may be off base, and I may have lost my sense of humor but there is nothing remotely funny or anything to chuckle about regarding your post. I'm not hating on you, I'm just one person making an observation.
Your Grandfather is a hero, and next time you "talk" to him, thank him for his service and the sacrifices he and his Shipmates made during the war.🇺🇲⚓️💯💖🙏
The remnants of San Francisco's bridge is preserved at Land's End in SF. You can put your hand through some of the holes. An amazing connection to history.
I'm 69.....boomer, my Dad was on Saipan and Okinawa. You MUST keep this channel up and running. The horror of these battles are not known to the current generations and "the boomers" need to try and make the younger generations understand the cost of freedom. Good Lord, this episode was gut wrenching. Thank you so much for the OUTSTANDING coverage.
I'm in the middle of Neptune's Inferno... and why God (or Gods) gave me access to these guys creates feelings of gratitude... to whoever made this happen!!!!!
It is quickly becoming this happy ritual when a new episode appears on my UA-cam feed. Thank you Seth, Bill and guests for these valuable and learnful conversations. Keep them coming. Greetings from Switzerland.
My late father was a Marine that landed on Guadalcanal and never talked about it except for how warm the water was when he jumped into it to get to the beach.
@@genenoud9048 That was the 1860's, rifled cannon could shot a mile, semi-accurately. The Napoleon smoothbores were more like 800 yds. And that's from nice stable solid land. YES, they could shoot further, at an area target like a town bur that's just a form of "spray 'n pray".
GD a napoleon cannon had a range of 1300 yds with grape shot 1700 with solid shoot. Some of the bigger guns shoot a 64lb projectile 4800 with great accuracy.
About a year and a half before this, at Matapan, the British battleships used radar to sneak up on and absolutely murder Italian cruisers at the suicidally close range of ... 3,500 yards or so, almost six times as far.
Hope Captain Bob makes a speedy and complete recovery. Distinguished man, he looks like a Roman Senator and really friendly. I imagine had he been around at the time I guess he would have torpedoed Japanese warships and merchant ships in a caring sharing inclusive kind of way
Bill responding-- thanks much. It turned out well. But it won't make my voice any better I'm afraid. We're all stuck with what I have. And I hope I could have lived up to anything near what our World War II heroes did.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar I truly hope you guys will do a deep dive podcast on the Battle of Surigao Straits. I think the last big gun battle line action and devoid of aircraft is worthy of your collective knowledge. Your devoted fan.
Stunning book. Apex of American achievement, courage, sacrifice was the USN off of Guadalcanal. Japanese, no slouches, must've been shaking their heads when they finally withdrew. The one way they MUST'VE been sure they'd beat the US forces was the proverbial "knife fight in a phone booth." American public followed this titanic struggle in the paper and on radio for six incredible months. Just titanic struggle for all the marbles, indirectly leading to the death of Yamamoto.
At the Kalamazoo Aviation Museum (Air Zoo) is a small piece of the USS Juneau on display. The story is this piece landed on the USS Helena when the USS Juneau exploded. This is only piece of the USS Juneau above water. I just thought you would want to know this trivia.
As a military retiree, prior service U S. Navy, U.S. Army retiree and history devotee of this period, I appreciate your in-depth coverage of these events. My first introduction to this particular fight was back in 1971, while reading Theodore Roscoe's U.S. Destroyer Operations in WWII, while serving in DLG-16. Your Pod casts add a whole new level of information about the early war in the SW Pacific. BRAVO ZULU for your efforts.💯%👍
Enjoy the show. Would love to have Drachinifel on some time as a guest. I've been watching these Guadalcanal episodes and his back to back. I really enjoy both. Drach reads from the after action reports of the Enterprise after Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz. It is interesting to see how the Navy is learning on the fly, recognizing what is working and not working, and constantly making suggestions for improvement. Great content on both sites. Huge fan of Jon Parshall also
The Operations Room channel has a good 15-minute account and animation of this battle though, according to what Parshall says, all the positions are to be taken with a grain or two of salt.
@@gandydancer9710 The Ops Room video was very good and up to their usual standard of 'real-time' positions and movements of units for greater visual clarity and understanding - but I also have some reservation about the accuracy of it. There are a couple of points where the graphics and narration seem to be a little out of step or else somewhat fudged to fit. This battle is, I fell, always going to be wreathed in a bit of mystery. The best way to understand it, as always with me, is to get some pals and wargame it with an umpire. You won't necessarily get a faithful reproduction of it, but you might glean some insights. Montemayor doesn't often produce new videos, but his accounts of Coral Sea and Savo Island are both excellent and recommended viewing, because he also takes the time to produce moving track graphical representations to match the narrative - and does it well.
I served on the USS GURKE DD 783. She was home-ported in Yokosuka. The history y’all bring to life is a real thrill for this old squid. Thanks so much! Keep it up. May suggest others read Hornfisher’s NEPTUNE’s INFERNO. Covers this topic as well.
The son of USS San Francisco MOH recipient Bruce McCandless, Bruce McCandless II, was a Naval Academy classmate of John McCain, a naval aviator, & astronaut. He was on the development team of the Manned Maneuvering Unit, or MMU that allowed untethered spacewalks & made the first such spacewalk himself. Later he was part of the shuttle crew that deployed the Hubble Space Telescope. Quite the father & son set.
There are no words that can adequately express my gratitude for this series of historical presentations. They are scholarly, entertaining, informative. I could not ask for more. Special thanks to your esteemed guests.
A (now deceased) family friend is an unknown hero who got a Legion of Merit at Guadalcanal for non combat work as a US Army airplane mechanic at Henderson. He was there for every major bombardment of the field, and somehow wasn't wounded on the island. He did get malaria though.
The. Naval Academy has memorial rooms with a bronze plaques with the name of the officer and a brief description of what they are honored for. I was in the 4 man room on Zero deck, first company, that is/ was the Admiral Callahan room. I never knew the details , thank you.
Another great show. There was a computer game callled Fighting Steel that covers surface combat. When dealing with Japanese battleships the best tactic was to hug them (like the Viet Cong did) and try to start enough fires that they would be overwhelmed. I’ve sunk Yamato in that way. Never considered until now that this was Callaghans plan of battle, it was actually the best option.
Awesome episode ❤ I was a Cold War Gunners Mate, lover of history and I can’t wait to ride with you all onboard Lee’s flagship USS Washington into the duel of giants. Bravo Zulu ! I’m ready to man turret one & load the AP shells to be ready to fly…
27:15 An AP round was never manufactured for the 5"/38. Best we could do was base fuse a special common round. But at close range it would field strip a battleship and set it ablaze. 44:25 These days the books say 16-20 rpm. The twin mounts were slightly slower, but I have personally humped those rounds in bursts of 25rpm in Mt51 USS Koelsch FF1049 during AA shoots, its pretty frantic.
You may not be authorized, but you are certainly authorities on the subject. I take your channels title as appropriate humility to the history, people, and events. Well done sirs!
Great video guys. My great grandfather Harold G Larrabee was was chief torpedomans mate on the USS Barton during this battle, and sadly wasn’t a survivor. My grandfather is 87, he’s knows his father died at Guadalcanal, but doesn’t really know what he went through while serving on that ship in the pacific. I’ve been researching what happened for him, and it’s been awesome sharing it with him. That ship went through some shit. Thanks for what you do guys, the detail is awesome.
I used to fish and hunt with a gentleman who was a replacement crewman on the San Francisco. He met up with it when it got to SF for repairs. He said it was so burnt and shot up when he first saw it he didn't think it was repairable. I remember him telling me that were a couple of hits on the top of the bow that looked like someone took a can opener to the deck of the ship. But they got it repaired and he served the rest of the war on her.
I knew quite a bit about that incident, but San Francisco’s near loss to capsize after shipping so much water was new to me. You guys are a tremendous asset to this theatre and am looking forward to more content.
I recall first reading about this battle in a book on the Pacific in WW II and the description of the naval engagements as a "Bar room brawl after the lights had been shot out."
Yes! A live show would be most welcome! Another terrific episode, well done as always. A very costly victory for the US Navy, losing more men with the inclusion of USS Juneau blowing up, as were lost a few months before at Savo Island.
1,439 officers and men Two CLAAs and four destroyers one heavy-cruiser with half of her stern blown-up USS San-Francisco which who had received forty-five direct-hits a large amount of topside and below-deck damage The 14'' shells which who was bombardment-shells which who did dreadful-execution on the San-Francisco's topside superstructure and the 5|25 and the AA-armament gun-crews along-with earlier a attacking Betty-bomber which who was caused casualites amongst the aft anti-aircraft guns and director Worse still the San Francisco's Battle-II emergency-conning-tower which who was completely wrecked with casualites Sadder still one of Callaghan's hastily put together staff which who was LCDR Jack C Wintle which who was killed when the San Francisco's flag-bridge which who was sundered by the Hiei's 14'' shells He was married and after his death his love-letters which who had arrived one painfully at a time She never married again and she passed on Along-with the horrific sinking of USS Juneau in which was already damaged and a Japanese sub I-26 plugged the already damaged anti-aircraft cruiser And the Juneau which who was blown apart And originally the Juneau lost seventeen men which who was when a Type-93 exploded into the forward fireroom A very similar direct-hit into the same spot which who was the Type-95 the submarine own version of the Type-93 10 people one officer and nine enlisted-men Along-with the junior doctor and naval-corp-men And the five Sullivan -brothers of Waterloo As a author had said There is no bad people in war Only war itself is evil
I am totally hooked on this series. I started with an episode ft Jon, then went back to the beginning and watched all of them. I am looking forward to your next upload.
The most enjoyable lecture to which I've ever listened. But you guys had an advantage over all other subjects: I've been a student of World War II since 1965 - the year after I discovered a TV show called "Combat." And I began to sense that my enjoyable mid-boomer life ( TV cartoons, green plastic toy guns, model kits) had been paid for by these sacrifices 20 years earlier.
I just listened to Tameichi Hara's account of this. His destroyer Amatsukase torpedoed the Barton and probably the Juneau but he turned on the searchlights and got raked by the Helena. A very confused night fight. He admitted his error in his memoirs.
Wow, I love how you guys weave these stories. No need for the glitzy animations and stock video to cement interest. Your knowledge does so much better than the others. Thank you for your hard work and willingness to share! I feel so much more informed about what really happened!
I love your work. These are morning lectures for me. I cant stop watching. I study WW2 history and im focusing on the Pacific right now. Its hard to find content about the Pacific anywhere..
I served as a radioman on board the USS O'Bannon DD-987 from 90 to 92, I can tell you straight out your correct on damage control. My duty station at general quarters was repair locker 2, forward folksol, my training in DC was impeccable, hands down the best in the world. As an example, within 1 week of my arrival, I was scheduled in Charleston, SC naval base for no less than 8 DC training sessions at the shoring and firefighting school in the first 3 months. By the end of my 2 year stint on her, I had over 96 days of DC training specifically in those catagories.
Some thirty years ago I read that the crew of USS Fletcher were terrified before a shot was fired because it was Friday the Thirteenth, their ship was thirteenth in line in a formation of thirteen vessels, and the ship’s hull number, 445, added up to thirteen. As it turned out, Fletcher was the only ship on either side that did not take any hits in the battle. I think I read this in Guadalcanal: Decision at Sea, by Eric Hammel, part of an excellent trilogy about the Solomons campaign. I’m sorry I no longer have the books, as I’d love to read them again.
another great show! Was looking forward to this one since its one of my favorite battles to read about. Honestly i don't see how this fight would have gone without the US Navy suffering really bad losses :( Looking at the damage report from Mare Island with photos on the San Francisco its amazing she got back at all. One really sad thing is all the secondary and AA guns were exposed mounts. No 5"38 secondary turrets like later cruisers. I've read those exposed gunners took appalling casualties from those HE shells. one last note: my mom was a nurse and while she was working in the mid 1950's (1956 i think) she had a co-worker who's husband served on the San Francisco and was in this battle. Sadly he was still having nightmares about that battle, 14 years later :(
PTSD IS TERRIBLE ALL OF THOSE EXPOSED ON THE 5''|25 DUAL-PURPOSE GUNMOUNTS WHICH WHO WAS BLOWN ALL TO BITS COMPOUNDING IT WHEN THE USS JUNEAU WHICH WHO WHEN TORPEDOED AND I THINK MANY CREW OFFICERS AND MEN WHOSE MINDS WHICH WHO WAS ALREADY AT SIXS AND SEVENS SEEN THE JUNEAU GO SKYWARDS ONE CAPTAIN GILBERT C HOOVER OF USS HELENA WHICH WHO HAD A CLASSMATE WHICH WHO WAS THE COMMANDING-OFFICER OF THE USS JUNEAU ALONG-WITH SEVERAL DAYS AND NIGHTS INCLUDING THE BATTLE SEEIING FRIENDS ABOARD THE OTHER SHIPS GETTING BLOWN ALL TO HELL MAY GOD BLESS THE 1,439 OFFICERS AND MEN WHO HAD PERISH 13TH OF NOVEMBER 1942
Just great, truly professional, and highly informative. You are wonderful for those who love WWII history and the lessons it can provide and teach. Can't wait for the next episode.
For me the most memorable thing about james D hornfishers book about guadalcanal is the story about Juneau. One eyewitness said: there was a huge water fountain and when it settled, the ship was gone, just like that. It's incredible to imagine a ship just disappearing like that
I appreciate the sentiment, but honestly one of the things I like about this podcast is Seth and Bill picking a variety of guests. I've been on more than my share, just because I've been working on my 1942 tome for so long, and have a lot to say about that year. But I'm really looking forward to their take on 1943 and onward.
@@jonparshall Well you do one hell of a job sir, please don’t go disappearing on us. I am also looking forward to 1943, as there seems to be a year-long black hole in Pacific War popular history between Guadalcanal and Tarawa. Best of luck on your book.
Thank you both for covering this naval battle. I read in Richard Frank 's , Guadalcanal, that the San Francisco was struck by American shells , due to coloured dyes found on the bridge.
I watch everything I can find about the WW2 Navy and Carrier battles vs Japan. Thank you for the great information you provide. I've learned alot from you.
So amazingly well done! Not sure how I was lucky enough to have you show on my feed but thanks YT rulers! NZRic US Army Vet worked and stationed with US Navy for five years on assignment.. expat living in New Zealand…
I totally support the comment early by Seth that fuel availability hinders the IJN at the final clinch here. I find it remarkable that it took Imperial Japan much of 1942 to repair, reopen, and exploit the Royal Dutch Oil facilities. You know, the oil facilities they went to war to obtain! Convoys of fuel should have been stopping at Truk to fuel the battlewagons so they could all cruise down to Guadalcanal and turn Henderson Field into a moonscape. Even having all four Kongos present on November 13 would've made a decisive difference.
Having virtually no history of oil development, the specialized pipes, equipment, etc were simply not available to the Japanese by which they could re-start production. Lowering explosive charges ~100 feet down flowing wells would pose near insurmountable circumstances without experienced personnel and equipment for remediation.
@@Coffeeguyzz I actually read that the Japanese were well prepared to exploit the oil compared to the Germans who even if they got the Soviet oil they had no ability to take advantage of it.
I heard the Japanese could not take full advantage of rice/food/good/fuel they got access to after conquering Southeast Asia because they NEVER had enough of the cargo ships to transport them back to Japan. Before the war or during the war.
@@dabda8510 Yes the main problem is that they decided to go to war with the countries that made up a large percentage of their trading and transport they had a small merchant fleet but the Dutch, English and US did almost all the legwork.
I thought I knew a fair amount about this engagement compared to the average person. This presentation expanded my knowledge by leaps and bounds. I look forward to more historical "candy"
Yet another very well-done episode. Its long been my contention that the night of November 13th is one of the absolute high points in US Navy history. The Battle off Samar is rightly celebrated for the courage of the destroyer crews in throwing themselves against the Japanese heavy units as they sought to buy time for the carriers to escape. But US forces didn't seek out that unequal engagement. It was thrust upon them. The First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal is different. Never before or since has the US Navy sought out battle willingly on such disadvantageous terms. The story about Callaghan and Young believing they were on a suicide mission may not be true but it likely expresses the feelings on many in the Task Force that night. This was still a Navy with a lot of the pre-war professional sailors scattered through its ranks and those men would certainly have understood well just how unequal the contest was that they sought out. That those men on those ships went willingly and deliberately into battle that night knowing full well how unlikely they were to survive it is the very definition of courage. If I may an analogy. The Battle off Samar is like the Marine who seeing a grenade land amongst his friends elects to throw himself on it to save them. But the night of Nov 13th is more like a platoon that volunteers to hold off an enemy advance knowing full well that they will be overrun and wiped out so that their unit can make good its retreat. Both are incredible examples of courage. But I think it takes even more courage to, with full and deliberate consideration of the facts, accept a battle that you know is basically certain to cost you your life. Its a shame that the Navy and history don't celebrate this event in our history more. Thank you for doing such a great job of remembering it. A few thoughts. First with respect to what might have been different had Scott been in command I think the biggest difference would have been that everyone would have known what the plan was. Scott would have placed himself on an SG ship I think and would have had a better tactical picture. I think that like Callaghan he would have sought to close to knife fighting range with its inevitable consequences to his command. But his destroyer skippers would have been free to employ their torpedoes which may have made a difference. IN summary their is good reason to believe that US forces would have been more effective that night with Scott in command. Re: the order to cease fire I had the chance to meet Trent Hone at the USNI in Annapolis during a seminar on leadership in the Pacific in WWII. We talked about his contention that Callaghan was seeking the kind of matchup you discussed where two CA's at close range could take on one Kongo. He said the order to cease fire was in keeping with those Pre-war exercises where the heavy ships were behind an outer ring and that at night by going silent it would enable you to break contact with the outer defenses and thus get into the heavies undetected. So in essence what we see is Callaghan attempting to run this battle along the lines of a pre-war exercise model. Finally with respect to Capt Gilbert Hoover his decision not to send a destroyer back to even attempt to recover survivors is certainly questionable. However, I do think its noteworthy that in Dec of 1992 Rear Admiral J.C. Wylie who was the XO of Fletcher during the battle wrote an article for Naval History Magazine on the subject. In the article he talked about the almost unimaginable destruction that Juneau experienced describing it as "the most tremendous explosion I could ever have imagined". He said a complete twin 5" mount was blown into the sky and landed less than 100 yards astern of Fletcher directly in her wake. In his article he went on to describe the messages that were sent to the Army bomber that flew overhead and that they could observe that the plane signaled Roger. Wylie goes on to describe how Hoover believed he had three more Submarines ahead on their route. To quote Wylie again "I think Captain Hoover made the most difficult - and the most courageous - combat decision I have ever known. And he did it with no delay. He surely knew he would be vulnerable to criticism, or he would not have had the courtesy to explain to us the facts. He was relieved of command shortly afterward. While I think he knew it might cost him his career. Captain Hoover chose - however much a cliche - the good of the service. And I think, on that tragic morning, he made the right decision.”
Love your guys passion for the details and the truth of these battles and the men who fought in WW2 in the Pacific! I feel like im taking a college course by how much I've learned. Your easygoing and relaxed chemistry with each other is a pleasure to listen to and watch. Keep up the good work guys!!
I read Morrison's book a few years ago. His descriptions of three things still stick with me. One, when a torpedo explodes on a ship very bad things happen. Two, when a live stream line breaks horrific things happen to the crew in that compartment. Three, as you point out US damage control crews really knew their shit.
Thank you, gentlemen, for this channel and bringing these big-picture events into human-scale perspective and on-the-water context. I discovered this channel by snooping out Jon's videos on YT ... and what a great find! One question for the subscribers. Do we want to pass the hat and get Jon another shirt? Though it might be difficult to find one that "matches" the wallpaper as well as his favorite.
Hey now! I'll have you know I rotate between three (count 'em, three) different luau shirts for these sorts of gigs. :-) And yeah, I agree, the wallpaper is dreadful, but the wife and I are just too lazy to replace it at this point--the study is full of too many computers and books and we both work in there, haha!
@@jonparshall I was pretty sure you'd take it in the playful manner intended. Whew. I have a weird aside for you. I'm helping a friend sell his company that puts people in need of translation in touch with translators all over the world. I explained to him your lament that it's difficult to find translators for arcane/bureaucratic/old documents and the paucity of reliable translations of that era of Japanese history. He said he couldn't guarantee anything, but would be very happy to help/put out the word to his - very large - stable of translators. I told him I'd reach out to you and see if you were in need/interested and put you two in touch if you were. THEN he tells me that a member of his church is ... literally ... a Kamikaze pilot [insert joke about how bad a Kamikaze he was if he's living in upstate New York at 90 years old]. Evidently the Japanese surrendered a week before he was due to be shipped out (or off?). He's written a book about his whole experience as well. Thought this might be someone you'd be interested in speaking to, as your narratives are in-depth and very personal. I also believe I chuckled more reading Shattered Sword than I have while reading every single other history book I've ever read, combined. I don't know how to provide "direct" contact info hereon, but if you're interested let me know and we'll figure something out. Needless to say, I'm a fan of your work and your various lectures, podcasts and other media. You and Craig Symonds are masters of your craft, and I'm very grateful for "Greatest Events of WW 2 in Color" for having introduced you to me. [Nothing against Wawro or O'Brien or either Orr (snork) but I'm still working through Symond's catalog and haven't gotten to their works yet]. Best, -jPp
I was thinking of Admiral Callaghan tonight. Something I hadn't really thought a lot about. The Admiral may have distracted by the proximity of his own death. I don't think he expected to survive. The same for Admiral Scott.
I have read the account of this action by the official Navy historian Samuel Eliot Morrison in his chronicles "The U.S. Naval Operations in World War 2" and he never referred it to "Barroom Brawl"!
The knowledge is phenomenal, the passion more so. Well done gentleman, truly have combined great talent here for an extraordinary ride into history regarding the Pacific Theatre of War. 10/10.
I was very interested in the suggestion that the Japanese fleet composition was determined by fuel shortages. That feels very compelling. Personally, I think I would have taken Yamato if at all practical as she would be the most survivable of the ships available no matter what is in the area, and retained a relatively high top speed. I don't think the Japanese would though, because it feels like she was being held back for the decisive battle and not to be exposed in minor skirmishes. Of the other ships available the Nagato class are too slow for this kind of fast raid, and while the Kongos were good vessels we need to remember they were an improved (and heavily modernised) Lion-class: a pre-WW1 design, essentially. This reflected in their armour layout and while very fast, they were exposed when facing opposition. Operating the four together would make a potent force, but they lacked AA fire. If the Japanese did not expect much opposition except from Henderson though, that might be a gamble worth taking if the knock out the airfield. I think they are the logical choice from the Japanese mindset.
Nagato and Mutsu would have a top speed of 25-26 knots, Yamato 27. I doubt Yam would need to fly down the slot because of her sheer bulk, unnavigated waters and fuel consumption so maybe about 24 knots Max anyway. Plus intel, if US spot her, photograph her, she loses a lot of mystic. So I think if the IJN were to risk another non-Kongo class BB it would be Nagato or Mutsu.
@@Wayne.J Yamato also drew a good bit more water than the other Japanese battleships, and was less maneuverable. She could have struggled to stay in the battle line and risked running aground.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWarJapan really only had six battleships throughout the war that were fast enough to operate at speeds fast enough to enable them to keep up with the rest of the fleet. There was Yamato & Musashi (barely: top speed 27ish knots while guzzling massive quantities of fuel oil) & the 4 Kongos. Every other IJN BB had a top speed of around 24 knots, give or take a bit. That might have been adequate for Atlantic & Med operations but it was almost worse than useless in the Pacific for ships that weren’t being used mostly for bombardment.
Thank you for breaking this Battle into multiple episodes to give Chaos, Confusion & Command Callahan the proper respect! Basically it's, Boys Born on odd number days ''Fire to the Right'', Boys Born on Even number days ''Fire Left''. Interesting that Destroyers Laffey, Sterret & Obannon did so much damage to Hiei by being so close causes one to think there was merit to the Battle Plan had Callahan tightened up formation with his best radar ships in the Van and let some others be aware of the plan, if there really was one! It almost reminds me of 18th Century ''ship of the line'' tactics while incorporating ''Drive By'' shootings of the Al Capone Days! Interesting Idea of doing a Live show! It would be an Honor & Privilege to participate on any level. Thank you for thinking of your audience!
Outstanding as always. While I do think it is sad about the Juneau survivors. I don't think Hoover made the wrong choice. I always think of the 3 British Cruisers sunk in WW1. One sunk and then two others sunk trying to rescue men from the water as the sub was still there. He is nursing a battered force back without enough of a destroyer screen to start with so he is kind of in a damned if you do damned if you don't position.
Love what you guys are doing. As a certified air nerd, I would have liked to have heard about more Cactus Air Force. I know that would have been difficult, as there were air actions constantly, and we are past the "Canal. I submit my favorite air action taken from Hornfisher's "Neptune's Inferno". On the afternoon of Nov. 12 the pilots of the Cactus Air Force had their own bar room brawl. For brevity, I paraphrase from the book. Lt. McEntee of the Atlanta witnessed a Wildcat closing on a Betty bomber. The fighter was evidently out of ammo, and resorted to an unusual tactic. He lowered his landing gear and proceeded to hammer the Betty's back. The Betty was on the deck, trapped. Finally something broke and the Betty plunged beneath the waves. Wow.
Yes, I would call that resolve, above and beyond. I do not think a fiction writer would put something like that in their book. Too unbelievable.@@jonathanstrong4812
God Bless Mr. & Mrs. Thomas Sullivan of Waterloo, Iowa for laying ALL FIVE of their sons upon the altar of Freedom. Their daughter Genevieve also served in the Navy, and had already lost her husband on The USS Arizona on December 7th.☘
That is unforgivable to leave the Juno sailers in the water. Of course i wasn't there, I am not a naval commander but geez. Leaving them in the water wounded? I agree sir- its criminal
Coincidentally, I'm just finishing 'Neptune's Inferno', so it was nice timing that I stumbled on these discussions. I had watched Drachinifel's series and those were great, but it's nice to hear a more general discussion as well. The two things that I think may have changed, if Scott was in command is that I think he would have taken radar more into his planning and I think, whatever his plan was, he would have made sure his skippers knew what he intended, before they steamed into action. As to Callahan's plan, no matter what he intended, I cannot understand not making sure all his captains understood what he was planning. Maybe this was just not the way it was done, but I also can't understand why Callahan didn't sit down with Scott and others who had bloody experience in exactly this location and type of fighting, and pick their brains for every last bit of info on what worked, what didn't, and what they would do differently But that's the thing with history, there's only so much you can know and there will always be key info you may never be sure of.
Have read several books on the subject over the decades. Not all agree so, it will be nice to hear your opinions on this historic and tragic, yet successful battle. Looking forward to hearing what you have to say
Thanks for the research you guys do! You've answered a lot of questions that I've had over the years as a "student" of the Pacific War. Glad that I found your channel.
I live in San Francisco and every November I make it a point to go down to Sutro Point, where there is a small memorial, the centerpiece of which is the bridge structure of the USS San Francisco, removed during her repair and placed there, showing the huge, jagged holes made by the heavy-calibre Japanese shells that wiped out Admiral Callaghan and his staff. There is a flagstaff mounted on a dias which has a brass arrowhead, pointing along the Great Circle route to Ironbottom Sound in the Solomons. Sometimes I go in the evening and stand on the high cliff, looking out over the vast Pacific, golden in the Westering Sun, and I think back in reverence and gratitude to those desperate days and our forefathers who met them, and tears come to my eyes.
I'm right with you my friend. I retired in 2018 to the Philippines, ending up settled quite comfortably in Cavite. Recently I saw a lightning storm on the horizon. I watched fascinated, remembering hearing tales from elderly filipinos who remembered watching night after night for three months all the flashes from Bataan, visible on the horizon from Manila.
It must have looked just like this, every night for months.
@@joebombero1have been out to the concrete battleship, El Fraile Island? It was still operational when ordered to surrender. It is a burned out structure now.
Very poetic.
I would like to experience that moment but doubt I'd ever go to San Fran again, after what's been done to it.. 😢
San Francisco is fine what are you talking about?@@hugowiberg1843
I used to work at Cincinnati international airport and had a chance encounter with a Pearl Harbor veteran. We chatted for a few minutes and he mentioned he was also on the USS San Francisco at Guadalcanal. I asked him how old he was when the battle took place, he told me he was an 18 year old I think gunners mate inside #1 turret. He told me “We lost our captain and admiral and they used a fire hose to clean out what was left of our bridge.”
My grandfather, Sea2C Clifford Russell Anderson served aboard the USS Atlanta during the “Bar room brawl” at Guadalcanal. He abandoned ship after all hopes of saving it were lost. He was mostly quiet about his time in the war. As a young curious boy I waited patiently for the times that he would open up. I recall him saying they were a “sitting duck” and took a pounding from both sides. The fact the ship lost power and he was pulled from communications to assist topside spared his life. He passed in 1987 when I was 21. I miss him.
P⁰❤
GOOOD MORNING USS JUNEAU HERE A LONG-LANCE FOR BREAKFAST INDIGESTION
@@jonathanstrong4812not sure what you're trying to accomplish with that post, but it was incredibly insensitive to those that lost their lives during that horrendous battle. I may be off base, and I may have lost my sense of humor but there is nothing remotely funny or anything to chuckle about regarding your post. I'm not hating on you, I'm just one person making an observation.
Your pap is a hero
Your Grandfather is a hero, and next time you "talk" to him, thank him for his service and the sacrifices he and his Shipmates made during the war.🇺🇲⚓️💯💖🙏
The remnants of San Francisco's bridge is preserved at Land's End in SF. You can put your hand through some of the holes. An amazing connection to history.
This battle should be made into a movie, and it should be filmed more like a horror film than an action film.
I LOVE hearing stories about battleships!
I'm 69.....boomer, my Dad was on Saipan and Okinawa. You MUST keep this channel up and running. The horror of these battles are not known to the current generations and "the boomers" need to try and make the younger generations understand the cost of freedom. Good Lord, this episode was gut wrenching. Thank you so much for the OUTSTANDING coverage.
I'm in the middle of Neptune's Inferno... and why God (or Gods) gave me access to these guys creates feelings of gratitude... to whoever made this happen!!!!!
Great book
I've seen this battle described as a knife fight in a phone booth in the dark while drunk.
Pretty much. Read about this 50+ years ago
Good one.
After seeing many UA-cam documentaries, this is the first real history lesson I've received.
Damn......how exceedingly excellent can a historical discussion be???!!!???....well this is it 👍👍👍
It is quickly becoming this happy ritual when a new episode appears on my UA-cam feed.
Thank you Seth, Bill and guests for these valuable and learnful conversations. Keep them coming.
Greetings from Switzerland.
Our pleasure!
Alexander Vandergrift said of the sailors that died that night, "We here at Cactus raise our tin hats to Callighan and his galant crews."
My late father was a Marine that landed on Guadalcanal and never talked about it except for how warm the water was when he jumped into it to get to the beach.
Man, I'm so happy to have found great channels like this one and Drachinifel to get my fix of detailed naval and pacific war history.
600 yds is a fine surface engagement range.
With cannonballs and black powder.
Haha you're right!
Gettysburg will give you a idea of the fire power and range. Battle of raymon.,Mississippi. The light cannon was sending rounds over a mile
@@genenoud9048 That was the 1860's, rifled cannon could shot a mile, semi-accurately. The Napoleon smoothbores were more like 800 yds. And that's from nice stable solid land. YES, they could shoot further, at an area target like a town bur that's just a form of "spray 'n pray".
GD a napoleon cannon had a range of 1300 yds with grape shot 1700 with solid shoot. Some of the bigger guns shoot a 64lb projectile 4800 with great accuracy.
About a year and a half before this, at Matapan, the British battleships used radar to sneak up on and absolutely murder Italian cruisers at the suicidally close range of ... 3,500 yards or so, almost six times as far.
Hope the captain has a speedy recovery. You guys rock
Bill responding-- thanks much. It turned out well. But it won't make my voice any better I'm afraid. We're all stuck with what I have.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar glad it turned out well, glad we have what we have. Have a good day Captain.
Hope Captain Bob makes a speedy and complete recovery. Distinguished man, he looks like a Roman Senator and really friendly. I imagine had he been around at the time I guess he would have torpedoed Japanese warships and merchant ships in a caring sharing inclusive kind of way
Amen 🙏 prayers for speedy healing Skipper
Bill responding-- thanks much. It turned out well. But it won't make my voice any better I'm afraid. We're all stuck with what I have. And I hope I could have lived up to anything near what our World War II heroes did.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar I truly hope you guys will do a deep dive podcast on the Battle of Surigao Straits. I think the last big gun battle line action and devoid of aircraft is worthy of your collective knowledge. Your devoted fan.
I’ll second that for sarigao strait. Especially dive into the mind of Oldendorf. My personal Hero!
This desert rat, Army Vet, Air Force brat- finds your Navy stuff fascinating!
USS Helena A Light Cruiser! USS Helena " HELL NO I'M A MACHINE GUN CRUISER"
Neptunes Inferno was very enlightening on this battle. The first book I read on this battle.
Stunning book. Apex of American achievement, courage, sacrifice was the USN off of Guadalcanal. Japanese, no slouches, must've been shaking their heads when they finally withdrew. The one way they MUST'VE been sure they'd beat the US forces was the proverbial "knife fight in a phone booth." American public followed this titanic struggle in the paper and on radio for six incredible months. Just titanic struggle for all the marbles, indirectly leading to the death of Yamamoto.
Thanks for the recommendation! Going to hit up Amazon right now!
At the Kalamazoo Aviation Museum (Air Zoo) is a small piece of the USS Juneau on display. The story is this piece landed on the USS Helena when the USS Juneau exploded. This is only piece of the USS Juneau above water. I just thought you would want to know this trivia.
As a military retiree, prior service U S. Navy, U.S. Army retiree and history devotee of this period, I appreciate your in-depth coverage of these events. My first introduction to this particular fight was back in 1971, while reading Theodore Roscoe's U.S. Destroyer Operations in WWII, while serving in DLG-16. Your Pod casts add a whole new level of information about the early war in the SW Pacific. BRAVO ZULU for your efforts.💯%👍
Enjoy the show. Would love to have Drachinifel on some time as a guest. I've been watching these Guadalcanal episodes and his back to back. I really enjoy both. Drach reads from the after action reports of the Enterprise after Eastern Solomons and Santa Cruz. It is interesting to see how the Navy is learning on the fly, recognizing what is working and not working, and constantly making suggestions for improvement. Great content on both sites. Huge fan of Jon Parshall also
We're trying...
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar And you are pulling it off!
The Operations Room channel has a good 15-minute account and animation of this battle though, according to what Parshall says, all the positions are to be taken with a grain or two of salt.
@@gandydancer9710 The Ops Room video was very good and up to their usual standard of 'real-time' positions and movements of units for greater visual clarity and understanding - but I also have some reservation about the accuracy of it. There are a couple of points where the graphics and narration seem to be a little out of step or else somewhat fudged to fit. This battle is, I fell, always going to be wreathed in a bit of mystery.
The best way to understand it, as always with me, is to get some pals and wargame it with an umpire. You won't necessarily get a faithful reproduction of it, but you might glean some insights.
Montemayor doesn't often produce new videos, but his accounts of Coral Sea and Savo Island are both excellent and recommended viewing, because he also takes the time to produce moving track graphical representations to match the narrative - and does it well.
Drach is sick and tired of Guadalcanal, though. Maybe try to get him for Phillipine Sea/Marianas or Leyte Gulf.
I served on the USS GURKE DD 783. She was home-ported in Yokosuka. The history y’all bring to life is a real thrill for this old squid. Thanks so much! Keep it up. May suggest others read Hornfisher’s NEPTUNE’s INFERNO. Covers this topic as well.
Thanks for the tip on Neptune's Inferno
The son of USS San Francisco MOH recipient Bruce McCandless, Bruce McCandless II, was a Naval Academy classmate of John McCain, a naval aviator, & astronaut. He was on the development team of the Manned Maneuvering Unit, or MMU that allowed untethered spacewalks & made the first such spacewalk himself. Later he was part of the shuttle crew that deployed the Hubble Space Telescope. Quite the father & son set.
Bill responding-- I met Bruce McCandless when I was nominated for astronaut back in 1987
There are no words that can adequately express my gratitude for this series of historical presentations. They are scholarly, entertaining, informative. I could not ask for more. Special thanks to your esteemed guests.
A (now deceased) family friend is an unknown hero who got a Legion of Merit at Guadalcanal for non combat work as a US Army airplane mechanic at Henderson. He was there for every major bombardment of the field, and somehow wasn't wounded on the island. He did get malaria though.
Look forward to this podcast every week. Next week Admiral Lee! Can't wait!
The. Naval Academy has memorial rooms with a bronze plaques with the name of the officer and a brief description of what they are honored for.
I was in the 4 man room on Zero deck, first company, that is/ was the Admiral Callahan room.
I never knew the details , thank you.
Another great show. There was a computer game callled Fighting Steel that covers surface combat. When dealing with Japanese battleships the best tactic was to hug them (like the Viet Cong did) and try to start enough fires that they would be overwhelmed. I’ve sunk Yamato in that way. Never considered until now that this was Callaghans plan of battle, it was actually the best option.
very entertaining, captured the gripping desperation and confusion of this action. Thanks fellas.
Love to see Jon! Looking forward to seeing Bill get back! I know this channel will blow up this year, cant wait to see the growth!!
Bill responding-- happy to be back
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar I actually missed you in this episode. If you are unable to participate, they should delay the production.
Awesome episode ❤ I was a Cold War Gunners Mate, lover of history and I can’t wait to ride with you all onboard Lee’s flagship USS Washington into the duel of giants. Bravo Zulu ! I’m ready to man turret one & load the AP shells to be ready to fly…
Oh just you wait. Next week is a good one.
-SP
Hang on to your hats H.I.MJ.S. KIRISHIMA Your're next!
27:15 An AP round was never manufactured for the 5"/38. Best we could do was base fuse a special common round. But at close range it would field strip a battleship and set it ablaze.
44:25 These days the books say 16-20 rpm. The twin mounts were slightly slower, but I have personally humped those rounds in bursts of 25rpm in Mt51 USS Koelsch FF1049 during AA shoots, its pretty frantic.
1:20:49. The torpedo aircraft were from USS Enterprise's VT-10 (albeit detached to Henderson field).
You may not be authorized, but you are certainly authorities on the subject. I take your channels title as appropriate humility to the history, people, and events. Well done sirs!
Great video guys. My great grandfather Harold G Larrabee was was chief torpedomans mate on the USS Barton during this battle, and sadly wasn’t a survivor. My grandfather is 87, he’s knows his father died at Guadalcanal, but doesn’t really know what he went through while serving on that ship in the pacific. I’ve been researching what happened for him, and it’s been awesome sharing it with him. That ship went through some shit. Thanks for what you do guys, the detail is awesome.
I used to fish and hunt with a gentleman who was a replacement crewman on the San Francisco. He met up with it when it got to SF for repairs. He said it was so burnt and shot up when he first saw it he didn't think it was repairable. I remember him telling me that were a couple of hits on the top of the bow that looked like someone took a can opener to the deck of the ship. But they got it repaired and he served the rest of the war on her.
I just love this series. Learning lots. My father in laws Dad was on the Tamahoko Maru which went down in June 1944. He still carries the grief.
I knew quite a bit about that incident, but San Francisco’s near loss to capsize after shipping so much water was new to me.
You guys are a tremendous asset to this theatre and am looking forward to more content.
Love your channel. Got recommended because I watch so much Drachinifel
I Love Drach!!🇺🇲⚓️💯👍
I recall first reading about this battle in a book on the Pacific in WW II and the description of the naval engagements as a "Bar room brawl after the lights had been shot out."
These are fantastic. Thanks for the great work and sharing with us.
Thank you! Cheers!
Yes! A live show would be most welcome!
Another terrific episode, well done as always. A very costly victory for the US Navy, losing more men with the inclusion of USS Juneau blowing up, as were lost a few months before at Savo Island.
1,439 officers and men Two CLAAs and four destroyers one heavy-cruiser with half of her stern blown-up USS San-Francisco which who had received forty-five direct-hits a large amount of topside and below-deck damage The 14'' shells which who was bombardment-shells which who did dreadful-execution on the San-Francisco's topside superstructure and the 5|25 and the AA-armament gun-crews along-with earlier a attacking Betty-bomber which who was caused casualites amongst the aft anti-aircraft guns and director Worse still the San Francisco's Battle-II emergency-conning-tower which who was completely wrecked with casualites Sadder still one of Callaghan's hastily put together staff which who was LCDR Jack C Wintle which who was killed when the San Francisco's flag-bridge which who was sundered by the Hiei's 14'' shells He was married and after his death his love-letters which who had arrived one painfully at a time She never married again and she passed on Along-with the horrific sinking of USS Juneau in which was already damaged and a Japanese sub I-26 plugged the already damaged anti-aircraft cruiser And the Juneau which who was blown apart And originally the Juneau lost seventeen men which who was when a Type-93 exploded into the forward fireroom A very similar direct-hit into the same spot which who was the Type-95 the submarine own version of the Type-93 10 people one officer and nine enlisted-men Along-with the junior doctor and naval-corp-men And the five Sullivan -brothers of Waterloo As a author had said There is no bad people in war Only war itself is evil
I am totally hooked on this series. I started with an episode ft Jon, then went back to the beginning and watched all of them. I am looking forward to your next upload.
Thanks!
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar What you are doing in correcting the official record is simply amazing.
The most enjoyable lecture to which I've ever listened. But you guys had an advantage over all other subjects: I've been a student of World War II since 1965 - the year after I discovered a TV show called "Combat." And I began to sense that my enjoyable mid-boomer life ( TV cartoons, green plastic toy guns, model kits) had been paid for by these sacrifices 20 years earlier.
I just listened to Tameichi Hara's account of this. His destroyer Amatsukase torpedoed the Barton and probably the Juneau but he turned on the searchlights and got raked by the Helena. A very confused night fight. He admitted his error in his memoirs.
Wow, I love how you guys weave these stories. No need for the glitzy animations and stock video to cement interest. Your knowledge does so much better than the others. Thank you for your hard work and willingness to share! I feel so much more informed about what really happened!
Both Seth and Jon are masters of describing carnage. Best always!
Couldn't agree more!
And chaos.
Thanks for the human touch in the way you also report on Japanese casualties - very considerate!
I love your work. These are morning lectures for me. I cant stop watching. I study WW2 history and im focusing on the Pacific right now. Its hard to find content about the Pacific anywhere..
I totally agree, this was their time for the decisive battle.
Great show gentlemen.
Glad to hear you talk about the US Navy studies about cruisers vs battleships and getting in close
Excellent work gentleman. You do great work. Thank you!⚓🇺🇲
I served as a radioman on board the USS O'Bannon DD-987 from 90 to 92, I can tell you straight out your correct on damage control. My duty station at general quarters was repair locker 2, forward folksol, my training in DC was impeccable, hands down the best in the world. As an example, within 1 week of my arrival, I was scheduled in Charleston, SC naval base for no less than 8 DC training sessions at the shoring and firefighting school in the first 3 months. By the end of my 2 year stint on her, I had over 96 days of DC training specifically in those catagories.
Some thirty years ago I read that the crew of USS Fletcher were terrified before a shot was fired because it was Friday the Thirteenth, their ship was thirteenth in line in a formation of thirteen vessels, and the ship’s hull number, 445, added up to thirteen. As it turned out, Fletcher was the only ship on either side that did not take any hits in the battle. I think I read this in Guadalcanal: Decision at Sea, by Eric Hammel, part of an excellent trilogy about the Solomons campaign. I’m sorry I no longer have the books, as I’d love to read them again.
And they had a black cat onboard that would walk beneath the ladders...
Yeah but they had a Phillipino cook that fed the whole crew rabbit foot stew for dinner
I DO!
This needs to be made into a movie.... what an amazing, tragic, and chaotic battle!
another great show! Was looking forward to this one since its one of my favorite battles to read about. Honestly i don't see how this fight would have gone without the US Navy suffering really bad losses :( Looking at the damage report from Mare Island with photos on the San Francisco its amazing she got back at all. One really sad thing is all the secondary and AA guns were exposed mounts. No 5"38 secondary turrets like later cruisers. I've read those exposed gunners took appalling casualties from those HE shells.
one last note: my mom was a nurse and while she was working in the mid 1950's (1956 i think) she had a co-worker who's husband served on the San Francisco and was in this battle. Sadly he was still having nightmares about that battle, 14 years later :(
PTSD IS TERRIBLE ALL OF THOSE EXPOSED ON THE 5''|25 DUAL-PURPOSE GUNMOUNTS WHICH WHO WAS BLOWN ALL TO BITS COMPOUNDING IT WHEN THE USS JUNEAU WHICH WHO WHEN TORPEDOED AND I THINK MANY CREW OFFICERS AND MEN WHOSE MINDS WHICH WHO WAS ALREADY AT SIXS AND SEVENS SEEN THE JUNEAU GO SKYWARDS ONE CAPTAIN GILBERT C HOOVER OF USS HELENA WHICH WHO HAD A CLASSMATE WHICH WHO WAS THE COMMANDING-OFFICER OF THE USS JUNEAU ALONG-WITH SEVERAL DAYS AND NIGHTS INCLUDING THE BATTLE SEEIING FRIENDS ABOARD THE OTHER SHIPS GETTING BLOWN ALL TO HELL MAY GOD BLESS THE 1,439 OFFICERS AND MEN WHO HAD PERISH 13TH OF NOVEMBER 1942
Just great, truly professional, and highly informative. You are wonderful for those who love WWII history and the lessons it can provide and teach. Can't wait for the next episode.
YES YES YES please do a live show. I just hope I'm home from work
We are just developing the technology to do this. Hopefully in Season 2
This is the best and most knowledgeable narrative of the battle I've heard. The best in military history Bravo -
For me the most memorable thing about james D hornfishers book about guadalcanal is the story about Juneau. One eyewitness said: there was a huge water fountain and when it settled, the ship was gone, just like that. It's incredible to imagine a ship just disappearing like that
My thoughts exactly. What an incredible tragedy. Rest in peace to those brave sailors. 🇺🇲⚓️💯🙏💔
One of your best yet. I say Jon should be the third permanent host with you guys
I appreciate the sentiment, but honestly one of the things I like about this podcast is Seth and Bill picking a variety of guests. I've been on more than my share, just because I've been working on my 1942 tome for so long, and have a lot to say about that year. But I'm really looking forward to their take on 1943 and onward.
@@jonparshall Well you do one hell of a job sir, please don’t go disappearing on us. I am also looking forward to 1943, as there seems to be a year-long black hole in Pacific War popular history between Guadalcanal and Tarawa.
Best of luck on your book.
We like having him on too!
Thank you both for covering this naval battle.
I read in Richard Frank 's , Guadalcanal, that the San Francisco was struck by American shells , due to coloured dyes found on the bridge.
Atlanta
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar thank you, my bad .
I watch everything I can find about the WW2 Navy and Carrier battles vs Japan.
Thank you for the great information you provide.
I've learned alot from you.
So amazingly well done! Not sure how I was lucky enough to have you show on my feed but thanks YT rulers!
NZRic US Army Vet worked and stationed with US Navy for five years on assignment.. expat living in New Zealand…
Thanks guys…another absolute gem
I totally support the comment early by Seth that fuel availability hinders the IJN at the final clinch here. I find it remarkable that it took Imperial Japan much of 1942 to repair, reopen, and exploit the Royal Dutch Oil facilities. You know, the oil facilities they went to war to obtain! Convoys of fuel should have been stopping at Truk to fuel the battlewagons so they could all cruise down to Guadalcanal and turn Henderson Field into a moonscape. Even having all four Kongos present on November 13 would've made a decisive difference.
Having virtually no history of oil development, the specialized pipes, equipment, etc were simply not available to the Japanese by which they could re-start production.
Lowering explosive charges ~100 feet down flowing wells would pose near insurmountable circumstances without experienced personnel and equipment for remediation.
@@Coffeeguyzz I actually read that the Japanese were well prepared to exploit the oil compared to the Germans who even if they got the Soviet oil they had no ability to take advantage of it.
@@jameshannagan4256 Yeah, but that’s not saying a whole lot.
I heard the Japanese could not take full advantage of rice/food/good/fuel they got access to after conquering Southeast Asia because they NEVER had enough of the cargo ships to transport them back to Japan. Before the war or during the war.
@@dabda8510 Yes the main problem is that they decided to go to war with the countries that made up a large percentage of their trading and transport they had a small merchant fleet but the Dutch, English and US did almost all the legwork.
I thought I knew a fair amount about this engagement compared to the average person. This presentation expanded my knowledge by leaps and bounds. I look forward to more historical "candy"
It sure seems that they kept saving Yamato just to waste it in the end. I guess that was the floating HQ for the brass. Seems crazy.
Thank-you
Yet another very well-done episode.
Its long been my contention that the night of November 13th is one of the absolute high points in US Navy history. The Battle off Samar is rightly celebrated for the courage of the destroyer crews in throwing themselves against the Japanese heavy units as they sought to buy time for the carriers to escape. But US forces didn't seek out that unequal engagement. It was thrust upon them. The First Naval Battle of Guadalcanal is different. Never before or since has the US Navy sought out battle willingly on such disadvantageous terms. The story about Callaghan and Young believing they were on a suicide mission may not be true but it likely expresses the feelings on many in the Task Force that night. This was still a Navy with a lot of the pre-war professional sailors scattered through its ranks and those men would certainly have understood well just how unequal the contest was that they sought out. That those men on those ships went willingly and deliberately into battle that night knowing full well how unlikely they were to survive it is the very definition of courage.
If I may an analogy. The Battle off Samar is like the Marine who seeing a grenade land amongst his friends elects to throw himself on it to save them. But the night of Nov 13th is more like a platoon that volunteers to hold off an enemy advance knowing full well that they will be overrun and wiped out so that their unit can make good its retreat. Both are incredible examples of courage. But I think it takes even more courage to, with full and deliberate consideration of the facts, accept a battle that you know is basically certain to cost you your life. Its a shame that the Navy and history don't celebrate this event in our history more. Thank you for doing such a great job of remembering it.
A few thoughts. First with respect to what might have been different had Scott been in command I think the biggest difference would have been that everyone would have known what the plan was. Scott would have placed himself on an SG ship I think and would have had a better tactical picture. I think that like Callaghan he would have sought to close to knife fighting range with its inevitable consequences to his command. But his destroyer skippers would have been free to employ their torpedoes which may have made a difference. IN summary their is good reason to believe that US forces would have been more effective that night with Scott in command.
Re: the order to cease fire I had the chance to meet Trent Hone at the USNI in Annapolis during a seminar on leadership in the Pacific in WWII. We talked about his contention that Callaghan was seeking the kind of matchup you discussed where two CA's at close range could take on one Kongo. He said the order to cease fire was in keeping with those Pre-war exercises where the heavy ships were behind an outer ring and that at night by going silent it would enable you to break contact with the outer defenses and thus get into the heavies undetected. So in essence what we see is Callaghan attempting to run this battle along the lines of a pre-war exercise model.
Finally with respect to Capt Gilbert Hoover his decision not to send a destroyer back to even attempt to recover survivors is certainly questionable. However, I do think its noteworthy that in Dec of 1992 Rear Admiral J.C. Wylie who was the XO of Fletcher during the battle wrote an article for Naval History Magazine on the subject. In the article he talked about the almost unimaginable destruction that Juneau experienced describing it as "the most tremendous explosion I could ever have imagined". He said a complete twin 5" mount was blown into the sky and landed less than 100 yards astern of Fletcher directly in her wake. In his article he went on to describe the messages that were sent to the Army bomber that flew overhead and that they could observe that the plane signaled Roger. Wylie goes on to describe how Hoover believed he had three more Submarines ahead on their route. To quote Wylie again "I think Captain Hoover made the most difficult - and the most courageous - combat decision I have ever known. And he did it with no delay. He surely knew he would be vulnerable to criticism, or he would not have had the courtesy to explain to us the facts. He was relieved of command shortly afterward. While I think he knew it might cost him his career. Captain Hoover chose - however much a cliche - the good of the service. And I think, on that tragic morning, he made the right decision.”
Guys, thanks for this. This is the best detailed description of this fight I've yet heard. Excellent work, thanks!
Love your guys passion for the details and the truth of these battles and the men who fought in WW2 in the Pacific! I feel like im taking a college course by how much I've learned. Your easygoing and relaxed chemistry with each other is a pleasure to listen to and watch. Keep up the good work guys!!
Another amazing story well told, but I missed Bill's input. Hope he returns to your podcast soon.
He’s back for next week’s show.
I read Morrison's book a few years ago. His descriptions of three things still stick with me.
One, when a torpedo explodes on a ship very bad things happen.
Two, when a live stream line breaks horrific things happen to the crew in that compartment.
Three, as you point out US damage control crews really knew their shit.
Thank you, gentlemen, for this channel and bringing these big-picture events into human-scale perspective and on-the-water context. I discovered this channel by snooping out Jon's videos on YT ... and what a great find!
One question for the subscribers. Do we want to pass the hat and get Jon another shirt?
Though it might be difficult to find one that "matches" the wallpaper as well as his favorite.
Hey now! I'll have you know I rotate between three (count 'em, three) different luau shirts for these sorts of gigs. :-) And yeah, I agree, the wallpaper is dreadful, but the wife and I are just too lazy to replace it at this point--the study is full of too many computers and books and we both work in there, haha!
@@jonparshall I was pretty sure you'd take it in the playful manner intended. Whew.
I have a weird aside for you. I'm helping a friend sell his company that puts people in need of translation in touch with translators all over the world. I explained to him your lament that it's difficult to find translators for arcane/bureaucratic/old documents and the paucity of reliable translations of that era of Japanese history. He said he couldn't guarantee anything, but would be very happy to help/put out the word to his - very large - stable of translators. I told him I'd reach out to you and see if you were in need/interested and put you two in touch if you were.
THEN he tells me that a member of his church is ... literally ... a Kamikaze pilot [insert joke about how bad a Kamikaze he was if he's living in upstate New York at 90 years old]. Evidently the Japanese surrendered a week before he was due to be shipped out (or off?). He's written a book about his whole experience as well. Thought this might be someone you'd be interested in speaking to, as your narratives are in-depth and very personal. I also believe I chuckled more reading Shattered Sword than I have while reading every single other history book I've ever read, combined.
I don't know how to provide "direct" contact info hereon, but if you're interested let me know and we'll figure something out.
Needless to say, I'm a fan of your work and your various lectures, podcasts and other media. You and Craig Symonds are masters of your craft, and I'm very grateful for "Greatest Events of WW 2 in Color" for having introduced you to me. [Nothing against Wawro or O'Brien or either Orr (snork) but I'm still working through Symond's catalog and haven't gotten to their works yet].
Best,
-jPp
@@jonparshall nice
I was thinking of Admiral Callaghan tonight. Something I hadn't really thought a lot about. The Admiral may have distracted by the proximity of his own death. I don't think he expected to survive. The same for Admiral Scott.
I have read the account of this action by the official Navy historian Samuel Eliot Morrison in his chronicles "The U.S. Naval Operations in World War 2" and he never referred it to "Barroom Brawl"!
The knowledge is phenomenal, the passion more so. Well done gentleman, truly have combined great talent here for an extraordinary ride into history regarding the Pacific Theatre of War. 10/10.
We thank you.
I was very interested in the suggestion that the Japanese fleet composition was determined by fuel shortages. That feels very compelling. Personally, I think I would have taken Yamato if at all practical as she would be the most survivable of the ships available no matter what is in the area, and retained a relatively high top speed. I don't think the Japanese would though, because it feels like she was being held back for the decisive battle and not to be exposed in minor skirmishes.
Of the other ships available the Nagato class are too slow for this kind of fast raid, and while the Kongos were good vessels we need to remember they were an improved (and heavily modernised) Lion-class: a pre-WW1 design, essentially. This reflected in their armour layout and while very fast, they were exposed when facing opposition. Operating the four together would make a potent force, but they lacked AA fire. If the Japanese did not expect much opposition except from Henderson though, that might be a gamble worth taking if the knock out the airfield. I think they are the logical choice from the Japanese mindset.
I would agree that Nagato and Mutsu’s speed, or lack there of, may have also been a consideration.
Nagato and Mutsu would have a top speed of 25-26 knots, Yamato 27. I doubt Yam would need to fly down the slot because of her sheer bulk, unnavigated waters and fuel consumption so maybe about 24 knots Max anyway. Plus intel, if US spot her, photograph her, she loses a lot of mystic.
So I think if the IJN were to risk another non-Kongo class BB it would be Nagato or Mutsu.
@@Wayne.J Yamato also drew a good bit more water than the other Japanese battleships, and was less maneuverable. She could have struggled to stay in the battle line and risked running aground.
@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWarJapan really only had six battleships throughout the war that were fast enough to operate at speeds fast enough to enable them to keep up with the rest of the fleet. There was Yamato & Musashi (barely: top speed 27ish knots while guzzling massive quantities of fuel oil) & the 4 Kongos. Every other IJN BB had a top speed of around 24 knots, give or take a bit. That might have been adequate for Atlantic & Med operations but it was almost worse than useless in the Pacific for ships that weren’t being used mostly for bombardment.
@@Wayne.JNagato & Mutsu were BUILT for 26 knots. After refits they were both down into the 24s.
Thank you for breaking this Battle into multiple episodes to give Chaos, Confusion & Command Callahan the proper respect! Basically it's, Boys Born on odd number days ''Fire to the Right'', Boys Born on Even number days ''Fire Left''. Interesting that Destroyers Laffey, Sterret & Obannon did so much damage to Hiei by being so close causes one to think there was merit to the Battle Plan had Callahan tightened up formation with his best radar ships in the Van and let some others be aware of the plan, if there really was one! It almost reminds me of 18th Century ''ship of the line'' tactics while incorporating ''Drive By'' shootings of the Al Capone Days! Interesting Idea of doing a Live show! It would be an Honor & Privilege to participate on any level. Thank you for thinking of your audience!
Outstanding as always. While I do think it is sad about the Juneau survivors. I don't think Hoover made the wrong choice. I always think of the 3 British Cruisers sunk in WW1. One sunk and then two others sunk trying to rescue men from the water as the sub was still there.
He is nursing a battered force back without enough of a destroyer screen to start with so he is kind of in a damned if you do damned if you don't position.
Excellent.
Love what you guys are doing. As a certified air nerd, I would have liked to have heard about more Cactus Air Force. I know that would have been difficult, as there were air actions constantly, and we are past the "Canal. I submit my favorite air action taken from Hornfisher's "Neptune's Inferno".
On the afternoon of Nov. 12 the pilots of the Cactus Air Force had their own bar room brawl. For brevity, I paraphrase from the book.
Lt. McEntee of the Atlanta witnessed a Wildcat closing on a Betty bomber. The fighter was evidently out of ammo, and resorted to an unusual tactic. He lowered his landing gear and proceeded to hammer the Betty's back. The Betty was on the deck, trapped. Finally something broke and the Betty plunged beneath the waves.
Wow.
It's coming
A-YIKES Whatever that airman did to the Betty was effective
YOU SAID IT!
Yes, I would call that resolve, above and beyond. I do not think a fiction writer would put something like that in their book. Too unbelievable.@@jonathanstrong4812
Thank you. Your coverage of Cactus A.F. was out standing, as usual.@@UnauthorizedHistoryPacificWar
Excellent job of describing the utter chaos and horrific human toll of this battle.
God Bless Mr. & Mrs. Thomas Sullivan of Waterloo, Iowa for laying ALL FIVE of their sons upon the altar of Freedom. Their daughter Genevieve also served in the Navy, and had already lost her husband on The USS Arizona on December 7th.☘
OH JESUS WHAT A DAMN MESS WAR IS
I found your channel at random, and after watching a couple of your later videos decided to start at Season 1. Great work!
Welcome aboard!
Great episode, thank you! I would definitely be interested in any sort of Live event
That is unforgivable to leave the Juno sailers in the water. Of course i wasn't there, I am not a naval commander but geez. Leaving them in the water wounded? I agree sir- its criminal
Great episode Seth and Jon!
Coincidentally, I'm just finishing 'Neptune's Inferno', so it was nice timing that I stumbled on these discussions. I had watched Drachinifel's series and those were great, but it's nice to hear a more general discussion as well. The two things that I think may have changed, if Scott was in command is that I think he would have taken radar more into his planning and I think, whatever his plan was, he would have made sure his skippers knew what he intended, before they steamed into action. As to Callahan's plan, no matter what he intended, I cannot understand not making sure all his captains understood what he was planning. Maybe this was just not the way it was done, but I also can't understand why Callahan didn't sit down with Scott and others who had bloody experience in exactly this location and type of fighting, and pick their brains for every last bit of info on what worked, what didn't, and what they would do differently But that's the thing with history, there's only so much you can know and there will always be key info you may never be sure of.
Sorry to hear The Captain is out today. Still a great show.
Bill responding-- thanks much. It turned out well. But it won't make my voice any better I'm afraid. We're all stuck with what I have.
Have read several books on the subject over the decades. Not all agree so, it will be nice to hear your opinions on this historic and tragic, yet successful battle. Looking forward to hearing what you have to say
Another Great show !!!
YES a live show would be fantastic
We are going to attempt one in Season 2
I learn so much from this show. Thank you all for the immense amount of work you do to make it happen.
I’m typing this from the mess deck of the Battleship North Carolina anxiously awaiting the saga of our sister ship Washington and Admiral Willis Lee
Really like these shows!
Cool, Joh Parshall! I just read your book dude, awesome!
Thanks for the research you guys do! You've answered a lot of questions that I've had over the years as a "student" of the Pacific War. Glad that I found your channel.