I don’t think so. I think everything that feels “off” about his behaviour can be summarised by his statement “I am forced to use the weapons of my enemy against them”. He has embraced what must be embraced to win a war that must be won. Even at the cost of his own humanity. That doesn’t make him a Sith though. And I think the point of the show is that good and evil can exist in people, and are not always mutually exclusive. It has humanised some empirical folk, and is showing us that the Rebellion required people to commit acts of compromise and even darkness. The show doesn’t need Jedi or Sith because it is about the human experience of struggle and compromising one’s values to achieve what one believes in.
Yeah I'm thinking that just like we have the blind guy in rogue one, who is from the church of the force. Not a hardcore force sensitive, but definitely believes in it's power and can probably utilities it in some sense like Po dameron too. Luthen is a low level force sensitive who has chosen to bring the empire down with all his malevolent cunning, but he's not a sith he just knows what a sith is, and believes in the force.
Yeah the star wars fanbase is too naive to realize the objective necessities for guerrilla warfare against an overwhelming force. Being an adherent of realpolitik whilst supporting the rebellion has nothing to do with the Dark Side of the force lol
I agree. He very well could be Jedi survivor...one of the 10 thousand strung across the galaxy. When a Man has lost everything that the believed in (sometimes through no fault of their own) then the gloves are off & it can compromise their morals to Win at all costs
He reminded me of a old officer in the navy. men like him used to be everywhere in the us military now a few remain of the old generation they don't play around they are basically dead inside with nothing to loose and are pretty hard core when it comes to finishing the mission at any cost but they get the job done.
I'm personally not getting Sith vibes from him, just a man who has sacrificed for the rebellion and who was rich before and is now utilizing those resources and connections to make change. This show has clearly shown it's not about Sith and Jedi
I agree with you that the show is amazing, and Skarsgard's (spelling?) acting is just off the charts. But I don't agree that the creators want us to believe he is Sith. This show is not about Sith and Jedi - it's about human beings forced into unimaginable situations who need to compromise their very souls to achieve what they know must be achieved. I'm with Icebrand Music on this one.
The feeling I get, especially from his ep 10 speech, was that he's a jedi who's had the foresight of his path to understand that the path he must take is very much leaning into and drawing off of the darkside. He is, therefore, no longer a jedi, but is strongly different from the sith in that he understands what he is doing is wrong, irredeemable, but the ONLY way he could satisfy his own need for justice. And I think he's right. He's grey.
like in the War of the North and the South in the USA; people were brothers and the same faith on both sides.. Having a spy seems normal as the people before the empire lived together on many Worlds / Planets.
There was never any credible possibility that the rebellion could have brought down the Empire *without* espionage, infiltration, and those willing to betray the government.
I’m gonna make the Argument he KNOWS he too far gone. As he said it himself “I burned my life for a sunrise I know I’ll never see.” He is the perfect foil to Saw and Mon mothma. Not quite extremist or pacifist. He’s in the middle a man who willingly made risk like the heist or trusting andor. I suspect we will see his downfall if not this season then definitely next season.
Another interesting possibility that comes to mind given the clear turning point for Luthen at the time of the Emperor taking over... Luthen somewhat matches the description of Ruwee Naberrie (Padme Amidala's father) if aged by 15 years since he was played by Graeme Blundell in Revenge of the Sith, and Kleya likewise would match his grand-daughter (Padme's niece) Ryoo, both in age (she'd be 23 here) and appearance (face shape and hair colour). Given Ruwee was a pacifist who was shattered by the death of his daughter, it would make the entire monologue make sense. Ruwee and his wife were also seen using a similar walking canes in the wide shot when walking behind Padme's casket in the funeral procession at the end of Revenge of the Sith. Doesn't explain the Kyber crystal though.
Love it! He mentions he has been planning rebellion for 15 years… since Order 66… perhaps the ghosts he dreamt with are his fellow Jedi who died in the purge. Now he has tapped his darkness for revenge.
Ok I just re watched with your take in mind. The line that struck me was “I’m forced to use the tools of my enemies to defeat them”. It made me think of the behind the scenes manipulation and planning by palpatine. Luthen is using similar sneaky behind the scenes tactics for his own ends. If he is a former Jedi or light side force user that is bent on revenge, then this speech makes a lot of sense. Star Wars has never taken lightly the use of light and dark, Luthen said himself he’s made his mind a sunless place
Loving Andor, it's really building up every episode. I agree the show doesn't need a Jedi or a a Sith, but his comment about the Kyber crystal early on about how "it means far more to him" seems to hint at something.
Luthen reminds me of the Allied officers and code breakers of WWII. There were many instances where people were sacrificed as to not give away that German and Japanese communication had been intercepted. Additionally, Allied officers had to on many occasions abandon their spies as to not give away the full extent of their infiltration. Regrettably, the logic of a situation can be seen as heartless but absolutely necessary.
From the Andor trailer, it also looks like Luthien’s ship emits red ‘lightsaber’ rays, suggesting when he uses kyber crystals they bleed red. My guess is he was a Jedi temple guard (hence he likes to operate in secrecy, in the shadows, and wear his antiques dealer mask), who turned to the dark side to battle his enemy, Palpatine and the empire. This would also explain why he has a Jedi temple guard mask in his shop (his own, from the past).
I think he’s a Jedi knight that turned due to Order 66, so now he’s a Dark Jedi. Cleia she’s he’s Padawan. My theory is Marrek, Luther will have a Scooby Doo moment to reveal Sam Wit. as StarKiller surprise!
Luthen is pragmatic and humble, to a degree. Humility is a personality trait of a Jedi. Plus he carries his cane like a saber, uses kyber crystals (at least 2 that are red). A lot of this points to him either being intimately familiar with the Jedi or was a Jedi himself.
Would be funny if luthen just learned all his sith and jedi skills from those holocrons he got in the back and wasnt even deeply tied to other characters
They aren't small ones either, they are exceptionally large. Likewise, how could he sell or price a product, if he didn't know what was in them. Unless he could open them himself he wouldn't know their contents. What if they are empty?
I feel like it would be impossible for the rule of 2 to be strictly enforced through out the galaxy. I believe after Bane it just meant the Sith would never again organize in great numbers or have one defining order. Instead their would be one master allowed to train an apprentice and together they would form their own Sith schemes in secret without alliance to any other Siths in the galaxy, and if they ever knowingly came across other Siths they wouldn't hesitate to kill them.
The rule of two doesn't even hold in the prequels that it came from. At that point in time, there is three walking around; Dooku, Maul and Sidious. Unpopular opinion perhaps, but I think what Yoda meant to say is: "There is always more than one to keep the teachings alive"
There's only two true Sith, that's the point of the rule of two. Anyone who tries to be a Sith, is a false Sith as they aren't apart of The Order of The Sith
And who is there to say who's a member of the private club and who is not? Do Jedi not have to consider falling to the Dark Side, since there are already two Sith in the Galaxy? Nah, that doesn't make sense to me. Also, *DARTH* Maul was indentified as a Sith by those that would know. Nah, I'm not convinced.
@@redelephantsdotnl Maul was a Sith Assassin, he was barely a Sith for that long and then was replaced when he "died". He wasn't a Sith, but a pretender.
I think it is very possible he was a jedi, and has fallen, but rather than going properly to the dark side, he's focused his anger and hate into fixing the galaxy, even though he knows there will be no place left for him when he crosses the finish line. Its a very tragic character either way, and I honestly love it.
@@jarrodbright5231 not wrong, at all. It really struck me after making this video. And that’s the fun thing about theories…they’re just ideas. Possibilities that may or may not be true. More often than not they are untrue.
@@STARWARS_FANATIC I'd say what we can definitely read from this is that Luthen lost something important to him when the Emperor took over the Republic. As to what that is... well that's the speculation part (at least until they tell us explicitly).
@@jarrodbright5231 if they ever tell us. I like the mystery of the character and I think it would be a cool twist if they never come out and spell it for us. Leave up to our imaginations.
A few notes to add here... Maul was a Sith Assassin, not Apprentice. Plagis knew of Maul and his training. Sidious probably didn't take him as his actual apprentice until later when he had already decided he would kill his own master. This was something he and maul would have kept privet save for interactions with anyone that was not linked to Plagis. (I know I am spelling his name wrong, sorry). Anyway, the important bit is that at first, Maul was not his apprentice. He was trained to be an assassin. Same as Ventris who later Duko is ordered to kill because her skills in the force start to be a threat to Sidous. She sees a potential rivalry with Duko if she is allowed to live. Additionally, new information about The Accolite has come out and we now know for sure that there were never strictly 2 Dark Side users. Dark Side cults existed everywhere. Among them are Force Sensitive members who aspire to become Sith Lords. The title Sith trails back to the origins of the Sith where the Sith were actually a species, not a title. They were prominent Dark Side users and that prominance just ended up getting their name spread across the whole Dark Side user ranks as a title. To be called a Sith at all was to be better and stronger than an Accolite. Accolites were considered to be in training to later earn their place as a Sith. That in mind, Accolites existed even during the time of Vader and Sidous. Granted, I think Sidious would have also delivered an execution order on as many as he could just as he did the Jedi to prevent any rivals from challenging him. It would not take much for another Accolite or Sith to recognize Sidious as a Sith Lord and he would probably be fairly well known as such among the cults. With all that in mind, I think the possibility is there and I would be very interested if both Luthan and his assistant were Accolites who maybe just do not agree with the premise that the Sith have to rule an empire. They to are subjects to this empire and since its rise, they have not favored any better than the jedi or other commoners. It would be very interesting to see this rebellion comprise of not just angry citizens, but pissed off Dark Side users who might feel a bit betrayed that Sidious did not open the door for the Sith to rise in number again.
It’s interesting how he was trying to stress Mon Mothma out for donations when she mentioned 400,000 imperial credits is big money when he was able to rob approximately 80 million credits from Aldahni. Also I’m sure he made a decent amount of money from his shop since it’s expensive to operate/rent in the higher levels of Coruscant.
He won’t claim out right that he was responsible for Aldahni, however the way he rejoiced in the back office when he heard the news was…MANIACAL. Like he told Mon, he wants to evoke fear and make the empire overreact. It is definitely more about his ego than funding the rebellion. But why?
@@divadiba2886 you’re correct in that the money wasn’t the main driver of the heist. What luthen wanted was for the empire to get PISSED and to tighten their grip on every day people. He knew the presssure that the empire would put on regular people was what he needed for these people to get angry enough to fight. When mon says to him that innocent people will suffer, he reveals that it’s part of his plan. He knows the suffering is the catalyst for a full scale rebellion
I wouldn't say he's a Sith, just that he knows he has to do away with niceties in the name of the big picture. They're definitely setting him up as a Churchill with the inside guy's warning about the trap. Look up the Coventry Conundrum. It's a legit thing. (edit) Also, people complain about weekly releases like this, but the spacing lets people talk and share theories. (And watch an episode a couple more times before the next one to catch all the details.) It builds communities in a way that all-at-once dumps can't. I think that has actually helped the show, not hindered it.
I don’t think he’s a force user at all, just a spymaster who is fanatical to the cause of toppling the empire, and is willing to do whatever it takes and sacrifice whoever it takes. He knows that he must get his hands dirty and will lose his humanity in the pursuit of his goal. Like he said in his speech, he gave up everything for a better tomorrow that he will never enjoy himself.
He claims he wrote this equation 15 years ago, which would align with order 66. Can’t imagine Luthen being this devoted unless he lost something he loved. My guess is that he was a very educated historian of Jedi and Sith lore who fell in love with a Jedi that died in order 66.
It's hard to see someone outside the order itself being permitted to be an "educated historian of jedi and sith lore" and just be openly dealing in the republic, since sith holocrons were highly corruptive and filled with knowledge considered forbidden by the order.
If Anything I think his monologue points towards the theory that he's a former Jedi. That now using the tools of his enemies is corrupting him. pulling him towards being a Dark Jedi more than a Sith
I would prefer that he isn't force sensitive but I do have to admit that Ep.10 actually made me think about it for the first time. He's using sith tactics in hopes of helping the jedi way survive. He also mentions the 15 years which makes me think his fight started on day one of the empire (Order 66). Plus the relationship with his companion can seem very apprentice like at times. I hope they don't go this route but there's huge potential if it's done right.
I thought so too. But there has to be a spark to ignite the Rebellion and rally those to it's cause. Most of these average everyday characters probably have never heard of the force. An instance of it being used and that it is in fact real will do that. "May the Force Be with You" becomes a war cry
@@divadiba2886 Ikr! I was thinking the same! I heard that the creator is bringing in people that are familiar with the "Star Wars" elements of Star Wars. That might be alluding to force stuff but idk if it's true. It's still super exciting to speculate!
When the elevator doors opened…I felt the same vibe. The darkness, the way his cape was flowing in the wind, his stance…reminded me of Anakin / Vader. I don’t believe he is a Sith, however. That said, imagine if he is a Sith, starting the Rebellion, not for “good” but to unseat his rival, Sidious.
@@divadiba2886 possibly. He’s not mentioned Sidious / Palpatine at all though, it’s Mon who constantly does. All I know, is, this is one of the best shows on TV, ever and it just so happens to also be Star Wars. Love it!
Maybe he was a Jedi but he came to the conclusion that to fight a Sith you must turn to the dark side yourself. He's not a Sith but his own personal brand of Dark Side.
The darkness is different within individuals, as we are all unique while thinking and viewing the world differently, science was created to bring all the other theories into a single belief that everyone can agree on, humans are driven by emotions, and nobody has control over their emotions, as emotions happen due to what is received by our senses, the emotions are messages to our brains that something is happening, this is out of a person control as the body itself does this, so we are slaves to the chemicals that are released due to the environmental and other peoples behaviours, all a person can do is feel the emotion and then have the strength to not act on that, this goes for the light also. We copy other human beings' behaviour to make ourselves more like the people we like, and sometimes we can hate someone or something that we find out that we become just like the enemy. But as Sun Zu said in his famous book, to know oneself and not the enemy you will lose 50 % of the battles, if you do not know your enemy or yourself you will lose 100% of the battles, but knowing oneself and the enemy you will never lose a battle. What everyone is missing is that if you embrace the darkness, it does not mean you live in pain and suffering all the time, or have to hurt or take over the planet, the darkness is our friend that happens to help us if we are being chased, we can slip into the darkness, as if you went into the light in that situation, you can be seen. All the Sith and Jedi failed to overcome or challenge either side of the force, as the force is both light and dark like electricity, the difference is the person and from psychology, they were all somehow abused to the point where they lost a connection to other people as they were all addicted to the force and followed blindly in some cases. Their childhoods shaped their minds to believe that violence is the only way to solve a problem. To stay away from the other side of the force as it's bad, but its not bad, the darkness is only absent of light, but in the dark bad things can happen and as I suggested above can save also, while the light can do the same. The YinYang is the true symbol of the human experience. Embrace the light and the dark and learn the other side of our existence that we fear that we are bad or we are this. We are everything and all at once.
He's just an adherent of realpolitik in his creation of the rebellion, it has nothing to do with the dark side or the force. He simply recognizes the practical necessities for conducting guerilla warfare against an overwhelming force.
Actually there is no such thing as a gray jedi. If you read the old republic books alot of the jedi about 1000 years before episode one started jedi way of thinking, actions, roles in society were very different from the jedi we know right now. The way the old republic jedi were is what your calling gray jedi.
I think Luthen Rael is neither Jedi nor Sith. I think he's a member of the Church of the Force. Remember them? Lor San Tekka, the old guy at the start of The Force Awakens, was part of it. They've been kept somewhat obscure in Disney canon since that movie, but the little that has been written about them fits not only Luthen, but his associates as well. It actually fits very neatly. The kyber necklace, the references to having taken "a vow", the fact that they like to meet secretly in the lower levels of Coruscant, the interest in ancient artifacts, even the hints at a connection to both light and dark sides of the force. I'm calling it. He's Church of the Force. Thoughts?
My bet is: - he lost his wife/love & master when order 66. The kyber cristal necklace is a precious souvenir. - he maybe is a dark Jedi. If I remember my sw lore correctly, those are not siths but force users that do not agree with a light vs dark separation. They are despised by the Jedi council while not being considered as 'evil'. Andor is quite unmanichean in it's approach to sw... Another thought: he is a repentous sith. His crystal is a gift from a Jedi that helped him to break free from the dark side. He now can master light and dark (Bindu anyone..?)...
dont know if its still a thing in canon but do you mean the grey jedis/force wielders who opposed the separation of light and dark and followed a dogma that pure balance can be only archived through the control over dark and light. smiliar to the jedi order when they had their main temple on tython with the two moons (light and dark moon) another guess: - he is part of a crime syndicate and inspired by maul who wanted to kill sidious - former separatist who figured out their entire movement was used by the same people they believed to fight
I couldn't understand Luthen's dialogue, but I think what you brought up makes a very interesting point and it would explain his dialogue. You remember when Obi-Wan told Anakin that only sith believe in absolutes, and in the dialogue did not Luthen tell that person that there's no way out of his vow so to speak, isn't that an absolute. Just a thought. And that would explain when Luthen had changed back his appearance after meeting Andor, after he put on his wig and had to change his demeanor to someone who was different. I think there may be some validity to what you had said. Thank you
The more I think about it, the more it might be true. He’s creating a rebellion that he can rule, use to overthrow the emperor and then become emperor. As soon as you brought up the assistant I immediately thought apprentice. It all adds up.
No, I would not feel kindness in starting a rebellion. That's the whole point, nobody in his situation would, not even you, despite how you feel. Because if you did, you wouldn't be starting a rebellion, you'd be rotting in prison, or hanging from a gibbet. I won't bet my life he isn't a Sith, but the narrative that makes more sense is simply that he's being honest when he declares all that he's sacrificed. To me, *a* theme of the show is how rebellions are bloody, murderous undertakings and require oppressive behavior, rather than nobility, love... or kindness. Mon Mothma is learning that now, as she is about to sell off her daughter to a Crime Lord. To stress the point even farther - *if* indeed he were a Sith, would that detail even matter to the hardcore Rebellion element around him? Does Sith even mean anything to non-Jedi? I think he would continue to be what he already is, an effective ally and rebel agent. All I see is a man committed to his actions, and resigned to give his life to this cause. I blame bad writing in Hollywood lately for you even entertaining the notion this could be true (re: Rings of Power and the big "reveal.") Thankfully the writers on this show are much better than that.
Doubt it. He "took an oath" and started down this path 15 years prior which is right about order 66 and Padma's death. He sacrificed a lot of emotions and bonds that Jedi are already above and Sith exploit. Fun theory though.
There was a lot of dark side vibes during his speech. At the point when he briefly raised his voice, it was amplified and echoed. I think he was using force voice/force persuade (a la Palpetine's "do it!" in E3).
@@STARWARS_FANATIC fantastic! It really made you feel for the guy too! I have no sympathy for the rebel spy. He has a family and a successful career. Luthen's life is his devotion to 'the cause.' No room for love or freedom from the fight.
@@STARWARS_FANATIC totally agree! The spy is one of those types that thought by being on the inside, he'd have it "easy," rather than being aware that he was in fact taking on the most difficult position one could possibly choose. Hell, even if he did bail, there's no way the ISB would let him go. He's an intelligence officer for crying out loud. That's a lifetime career, even in a Republic. There's no 'normal' after that.
In SW Legends there was a number of Jedi that left the order following Count Dooku's lead before the Clone Wars began. Some fort for the separatists but others just simply walked away from it all. If changed his identity over a decade prior to order 66, and learned how to hide in plain sight much like Darksiders from Bane to Sidious and not took part in anything that would show is touch of the force he could very well be a pre Clone Wars Jedi exile. Talking about his loss and ghost sounds allot like someone who left the real world military for whatever reason just prior to his buddies being shipped off to war and in the case of Jedi it would be worse because even though he may have disagreed with the order I seriously doubt he would have wanted to see them be purged by the system they fought for, perhaps to the point that he's lost touched with the force. Unlike the Jedi who at one the run post order 66 he can hide in plain sight because they can't sense him.
Sacrificing kindness could mean he just doesn’t have the luxury of being kind all the time anymore. If you’re going to fight a war you can not do it with kindness!
Adding to the Sith theory is the Sabre blades that unfold from his ship in the trailer also .. Luthen .. Lucifer .. he might not be against palpatine but with him to draw the rebels into a decisive battle like in EP 6 … and what if we get the reveal in season 2 and have Asoka cameo in to dispatch him before Rogue One
No. Not everything in Star Wars has to be lightsabers and Jedi and Sith and the Force and pew-pew-pew! The idea that the birth of the Rebellion had to include some dark and dirty work - and Han shot first, by the way - is one of the most intelligent and interesting aspects of Andor, the show, and Luthen the character. The idea that Luthen is a Sith because he’s doing dirty work has to be the stupidest theory I’ve heard regarding his background, and if it turns out to be true, this show will have crashed and burned worse than the final season of Game of Thrones.
It’s not cannon anymore, but the Jedi shadows were on the edge of the dark side and operated outside of the council in the old lore. They were sith hunters and flirted with the dark side. I’m not saying he is Jedi, but it is a possibility.
Its probably symbolic - a mix of you have to play like your enemy to have a chance and nietzsche's you can become the very evil you try to fight. The entire show is about sacrifice, ordinary people struggling and that the rebellion isnt just the light good guys but a complex mix of grey shades and different fractions aligned in the cause to overthrow the empire (some more rational, some more pacifist, some extremist, some thugs etc) and Luthen is the guy (hopefully we get the background) who sacrificed all to unite all these grey shades from Saw Guerra to Mon Mothma to one serious rebellion. I dont think Gilroy will overthrow this all with a force wielder in the shadows at the end.
Maybe this was said before... But the part that stood out to me was giving the Khyber crystal to Andor. I felt it odd that if he was a Jedi=, he would give up one so easily, knowing the intrinsic value of it. Yet if he was a Sith who defeated Jedi and kept them as Trophies, it would still be important but I would not put it past a Sith to use it as leverage for something he/she was working towards.
When he met andor, he said something about when he meets somebody he understands them and can read them and the rest he makes up..something along those lines. I found that strange, I really do believe he’s force sensitive and it would be amazing for a sixth to start the rebellion that helps bring down the empire
The armor is either an oops with set dressing as it is actually seen in the shop next to the entrance to the back and then fully in the back or he has 2 of them.
It would be midblowing if instead of a prequel for Andor character, we are watching prequel to the next trilogy main villian, who secretly used Rebellion and Skywalkers to defeat Palpatine and clear out scene for himself.
They better have the same team in the second series because this is SO GOOD. Mandalorian had the rule of cool down, but this is carried not only by the visuals, and the superb nuanced writing, but mostly the incredible acting. Serkis was incredible and the exchange with Skarsgard ion the platform was amazing. The way i'm leaning after the last episode, is pretty much as you say: Luthen was a jedi, the crystal was his own, a memory of his old life, but he is using dark side methods to try to defeat the dark side...also, to shield himself from the emperor's sight perhaps, so he can stay so close to the seat of power. Either way, he's an expert at manipulation and presentation.
Spoilers: So that amazing speech, he says exactly what someone would say who is a jedi who turned to the dark to fight the dark. BUT, there are two looks he gives before he starts talking which could be "what WOULD a jedi who turned to the dark to fight the dark say.".... and...." ok, yep, i'll say that", so a sith deception. Or maybe just deciding to be open with the guy because there is so much at stake. WHO KNOWS haha, and that's why i'm loving it. Intelligent writing.
Also a bit of misc evidence Luthen is some sort of force user: Inthe episode where he flies Andor off his planet, he directs Andor precisely to where the medkit relative to Andor, despite that being about 10 feet behind his back. Just a touch more than generalised awareness.
Emotions, instincts, attachment, sacrificing inner peace, urges, gaining a inner darkness and power craving are all inner changes that a sith undergoes. Anger and hate is what they prefer but no emotions are off the table to use for one's benefit, focus and strength.
I still think he is part of Red Dawn. Qi'ra talks about Maul's plan to destabilize the empire and her collection of artifacts in the comics. Plus their whole thing is about sacrificing yourself for the collective; that 100 hands is better than 1. Everyone is expendable. Very up Luthen's alley.
I think his son was a Jedi that was killed in order 66 or while in hiding.I think the double agent with the moustache was the one who gave up his son. The kyber crystal is from his dead sons lightsaber.
Luthen definitely has one of the best(possibly the best) monologues I've ever heard in Star Wars. Something that would have sounded just as brilliant if said in a movie based in the real world. I hope this series carries on to it's conclusion because despite its slow pace you can still feel it pulling you into the darkest regions og the Rebellion. I hope they finally bring the Bothan into the story because they've definitely been neglected in Star Wars.
A fun idea to explore…. 1. He is a collector allowed to own/sell jedi and sith artifacts (instead of trophies for Palpatine). 2. He is willing to let Kreegyr and his men die in an ambush. 3. He has a “lightsaber” armed ship… but the beams were red - like the sith. 4. He said the following: My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my eagerness to fight, they've set me on a path from which there is no escape.
When I saw him put on that black cloaked hood I said oh my goodness he is a Sith! But I think he may have been an ex Jedi Temple guard because he had a kyber crystal. Food for thought I wonder where they're going to go and just two episodes left to go.
A strong theory. I thought at least a fallen jedi. Before all those inquisitors started running about, most Dark Jedi would aspire to be Sith. Inquisitors possibly do as well, though their hierarchy forbids it.
The impression I get from the Inquisitors - and this is, admittedly, not knowing all the lore - is that, sure, they utilize the Force, they are dark, but it’s in the interests of the Emperor and Vader that they aren’t well learnt in the Dark Side. They are gainfully employed, but not brainwashed. Susceptible, yes, but they’ll never be Sith. Even the ones like the Grand Inquisitor, former Jedi. The glass ceiling is firm. So then you have people like Reva who care about absolutely nothing except her own drive, and that’s the downside of the middleman position the Inquisitors are in. I imagine some of them yearn for power they’ll never see.
You always put the more expensive items at the back of the shop. Two reasons: security and sticker shock. The front of the shop is what is most likely seen from the outside. This is where you put the items you're more likely to sell price-wise. It's what entices the buyer in. Once they're in, then you put the progressively more expensive items further back. The psychology is that once they customer has walked far enough in, they're more resistant to walking out empty handed. For security, it just makes sense to keep the more expensive items towards the back because the thieves are more interested in seeing what they can grab easily and leave.
I've thought he was a Sith since he first appeared to "help" Cas. The last episode though sealed the deal, A. his monologue on the bridge, B. the 2 red Lightsabers that came out of the side of his ship like Darth Maul's double sided lightsaber, C. He seems like he has a score to settle with the Emperor. He seems like he had been the Emperor's apprentice at one time, but didn't quite make the cut so he was cast aside for a new apprentice, Vader. He seems like the type that would adhere to the adage, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." so he's stirring up the hornets nest and helping to organize the rebellion to make waves for the Emperor as a distraction for his underlying plans.
Episode 10 was seriously good. Like Game-of-Thrones-Season-3 good. The only shitty part is that there's only 2 episodes left, then we gotta wait 'till 2024 for more.
My quick guess would be Rael Averroes, a former apprentice to Count Dooku. Known to be around the age of Qui-Gon-Jinn and had spoken to his former master just before the clones were being ordered, made, or cloned, what is the proper term here? When he said he had to give up love. Sith would have given up love a long time ago and he would have used more forceful tones where his subject Lonnie Jung was concerned. He was a Jedi who was kinda fast and lose with the no attachments side of the Jedi code. He had a female apprentice that he had to kill and then was assigned to protect another young woman on the thrown on some far-off planet that doesn't come to mind. So maybe that is when he could have seen what the corporations of the planet were doing with the additional information from the Count and you can see the game unfold right in front of you. Since he is a much lesser known Jedi his story ccould be adjusted so he would be the last apprentice of Count Dooku. But I haven't seen Tales of the Jedi yet so, maybe? Blackstar signing out.
My theory is that Luthen is a scientist who worked on Kyber crystals and has realised the Empire is building some kind of super weapon with it. He is probably one of Orson Krennic’s cadre that and I say this because, in his speech, he refers to an equation he wrote 15 years ago. It is currently -15 BBY in Andor and the Empire was founded around 15 years ago. We know, from the book, catalyst, that Krennic had huge teams of scientists, including Galen Erso, working on the Death Star weapon as early as -21 BBY because the Death Star was actually under construction by the Geonosians before the end of the clone wars. Luthen’s fixation with Kyber (he gives one to Andor) the fact he has a super advanced ship that many think is powered by Kyber all point to him being some kind of power specialist like Galen Erso. I think he knows what is coming (i.e. the Death Star) and so understands what the Empire really is.
@@STARWARS_FANATIC I am a scientist and feel that Luthen acts like a someone who is cerebral. He is not a man of action and even admits he is a coward, when speaking to Saul Gerrera. This is why I don’t think he is a Sith or a Jedi. The holocrons could come from those distributed by the Empire to scientists seeking to understand the nature of Kyber. I seem to recall that from Catalyst but I could be misremembering!
I don’t think Luthen is force sensitive. But he could have ties, deep ties perhaps, to Crimson Dawn. At this point of the timeline, the organization should still be run by Maul. One of his objectives was always the destruction of the Sith. In the comics, Qi’ra becomes leader of Crimson Dawn after Maul’s death and wages her own war to defeat the Sith.
At the end of Episode 5 when he comes off the radio, you see both Jedi and Sith holocrons on the shelf behind him to the right. Tempting, but i think he's just a collector who maybe wishes for Force greatness but never had it in him.
I don’t believe Luthen is a sith. He does feel off tho. Imo, this is because he is not a “good guy.” He may be fighting to cast off the yoke of the Empire, but he has no problem sacrificing people or killing for the cause. His men are disposable. He demonstrates this by letting Kreeger and 50 rebels be slaughtered in an Imperial trap. He refused to warn them so as to not alert the ISD. Not even Saw will stoop so low as to sacrifice his men. I think the reason he feels like a sith is cuz Luthen and Palpatine are ruthless sociopaths hellbent on getting what they want, no matter the price.
I hope he’s either a second acolyte of Darth Plagueis/Hego Demask or Darth Plagueis used essence transfer to occupy the body of Luthen Real. Either way Hego Demask also used to hide Sith symbolisms in plain and not so plain sight
A clue is Luthen's shop asssistant that is a little over protective. & Mon Mothra risking her wealth,status & family. They could be risking all,not only for who he is but for What he is.
His ship is powered by Kyber crystals. In one of the first trailers his ship has weapons that look like red light sabers. They are either hiding him being a sith in plain sight or throwing a diversion our way to make the finale that much sweeter. I’m inclined to think he is a sith.
He's not a sith but he's saying that he has damned himself, it reminds me of the polish underground or other insurant operations where they assassinated and killed each other in ways that made them feel like they have become what they hated but it was the only way to find success against an enemy that does not play by the rules. A lot of extremists have found themselves in similar situations throughout human history and really how confirmation bias occurs when people are like I am right and because I am right whatever I do is what must be done to succeed. In one film they had scenes where Christians were saying that God is on their side and God wills a war between the Christians and Muslims and The Muslims had the same gathering saying God Wills it and it is our land. When two sides see themselves as right there is no way out but war.
I don’t know what he is, but his character is super intriguing. I also know Andor s some of the best Star Wars we’ve had in a long time, it is a different type of story. I really like the Cold War, spy versus spy feel. It is refreshingly new in the Star Wars galaxy. The ruthlessness of the Empire reinforces the feel of the Empire from the original trilogy. I love The Mandalorian, I liked The Book of Boba Fett (looking forward to a second season), and I’m eagerly awaiting Asoka, but Andor is a different story, the story that sets up all of the Star Wars we’ve all come to enjoy.
I don't agree. Or rather, I don't think the writers are even implying anything force related. I don't think the writers are connecting anything in this show to "the force". The _whole point_ of the show is that it doesn't require space wizards to tell a compelling story about struggling against tyranny. It's about normal people taking their fate into their own hands and doing the extraordinary. It's about sacrifice and resistance. The above being said, I also feel like there is a fundamentally different interpretation going on here. When Luthen says he "is forced to use the weapons of my enemy against them" he is talking about how he is no longer the naïve idealist he was when he started fighting the empire. He is saying that he has had to become a rotten, terrible person who uses other people like pawns, and sacrifices them to achieve his goals and that it has taken its toll on him. None of these things imply he is a Sith, they mean he is a cold, callous spy who believes that by using people the way the empire does, he has become just as bad. -Sacrificing Calm means he is never permitted to relax, he is always stressed or worried about being found out. -Sacrificing Kindness means he cannot be charitable or show empathy for others, he cant spend resources on others or show compassion because that exposes a weakness, he cannot value another person beyond what they can contribute to the cause. -Sacrificing Kinship means he cannot have family or friendship, the bond between comrades. He has to USE people to accomplish things, they are tools, a means to an end. -Sacrificing Love means he cannot have a relationship with someone, he likely had at least one person whom he would have been happy to spend his life with, that isn't a possibility for a man with multiple identities and leading a double-life. (When Luthen talks about love in the video, I don't read a cold-heartless reaction, I read someone who gave up on the chance at romance because he knew it would only hurt the person he loved.) -Sacrficing "all chance at inner peace" is saying "I am going to be haunted by the decisions I have had to make to even be able to make this fight a reality". _Just because a cause is noble doesn't mean that a person "automatically feels good" about the choices they have had to make and the actions they have taken to achieve their goals_. I feel like there is a fundamental naïvete in the idea that "fighting for a good cause" gives one inner peace. The whole point of this speech is to show the audience that Luthen has had to get his hands dirty, has had to betray people who want the same thing he does, and has had to do ugly terrible things to fight back against tyranny. The point is to show that "the rebellion" isn't some goody-two-shoes band of misfits who magically triumph over evil, they have to lie, cheat, steal, betray, and kill to fight back. He shares his dreams with the ghosts of comrades he lost along the way, people he's betrayed, people who lost their lives because of his actions. Very likely these people shared his dream of overthrowing the empire, now they haunt him. If we apply what he has said in this monologue to his actions, specifically allowing Kreegyr and his men to get caught and die to maintain the value of his informant, much of this is analogous to stories of British intelligence in the second world war knowingly allowing strikes from the germans to succeed just to prevent them from realizing their communications had been decrypted. In the same vein, he treats Cassian as a loose end, sending assassins to kill him so the empire cannot get information from him. All of this is to show the grittier, more complex side of the story of the rebellion instead of the touchy-feely, "see kids, the good guys automatically win against the bad guys" that the rest of modern star wars depicts. I feel like we're trying way too hard to tie something together that isn't there. Now, I am not trying to criticize the fun of tossing around fan theory, that is all part of fandom and I am not writing all this just to try to be like "you are so wrong". People are allowed to have their own opinions and head-cannon. I just wanted to organize my interpretation of what is going on, because there is a strange habit in fandom where once a "special" thing exists, fans start seeing it everywhere, and that certainly applies to SITH stuff.
I think people are thinking too much into this so I'll say he's no sith or force user. There is alot of people in black water organization like him. If you don't know what that is look it up
I really don’t think he’s a Sith or even a force user. I couldn’t imagine either of them fighting the emperor the way he’s doing it. There’s fun pieces of “evidence”, though. I noticed the lightsaber walking stick as well. My personal theory is that he really was just an antiques dealer and maybe an academic.
I don’t think so. I think everything that feels “off” about his behaviour can be summarised by his statement “I am forced to use the weapons of my enemy against them”. He has embraced what must be embraced to win a war that must be won. Even at the cost of his own humanity. That doesn’t make him a Sith though.
And I think the point of the show is that good and evil can exist in people, and are not always mutually exclusive. It has humanised some empirical folk, and is showing us that the Rebellion required people to commit acts of compromise and even darkness. The show doesn’t need Jedi or Sith because it is about the human experience of struggle and compromising one’s values to achieve what one believes in.
Yeah I'm thinking that just like we have the blind guy in rogue one, who is from the church of the force. Not a hardcore force sensitive, but definitely believes in it's power and can probably utilities it in some sense like Po dameron too. Luthen is a low level force sensitive who has chosen to bring the empire down with all his malevolent cunning, but he's not a sith he just knows what a sith is, and believes in the force.
Yeah the star wars fanbase is too naive to realize the objective necessities for guerrilla warfare against an overwhelming force. Being an adherent of realpolitik whilst supporting the rebellion has nothing to do with the Dark Side of the force lol
I agree. He very well could be Jedi survivor...one of the 10 thousand strung across the galaxy. When a Man has lost everything that the believed in (sometimes through no fault of their own) then the gloves are off & it can compromise their morals to Win at all costs
He reminded me of a old officer in the navy. men like him used to be everywhere in the us military now a few remain of the old generation they don't play around they are basically dead inside with nothing to loose and are pretty hard core when it comes to finishing the mission at any cost but they get the job done.
This
Whether or not he's a Sith (or other force user), the writers definitely want us to think that... either way I'm LOVING this show.
Same here!
I'm personally not getting Sith vibes from him, just a man who has sacrificed for the rebellion and who was rich before and is now utilizing those resources and connections to make change. This show has clearly shown it's not about Sith and Jedi
He does own sith holocron in his back office as well as a jedi one. I don’t think he’s sith. This excellent writing group is being subtle
I agree with you that the show is amazing, and Skarsgard's (spelling?) acting is just off the charts. But I don't agree that the creators want us to believe he is Sith. This show is not about Sith and Jedi - it's about human beings forced into unimaginable situations who need to compromise their very souls to achieve what they know must be achieved. I'm with Icebrand Music on this one.
@@PoorStargazer spot on!!
His speech at the end was the best speech that I've ever heard in Star Wars.
😅😅😅😅😅
Gotta love Oscar level solliloquis in a TV show..
Yoda explaining the force to Luke will always take the top spot for me but I absolutely loved this speech.
The feeling I get, especially from his ep 10 speech, was that he's a jedi who's had the foresight of his path to understand that the path he must take is very much leaning into and drawing off of the darkside. He is, therefore, no longer a jedi, but is strongly different from the sith in that he understands what he is doing is wrong, irredeemable, but the ONLY way he could satisfy his own need for justice. And I think he's right. He's grey.
AmTge sith know what they're doing is technically "wrong". They just don't care because the ends justify the means.
Grey Jedi don't exist, you're either Light or dark, there is no middle
@@CommunityFan they literally do though.
He’s in transition…there’s more than one path to the dark side. He went from a green hooded burlap cloak to a black billowing cape 🤨
@@divadiba2886 That's just his style. The colour of his clothing doesn't symbolise what he's becoming, but rather, who he already became
It's fascinating to me that the rebellion has spy's & double agents nestled into the Empire's ranks. Episode 10 of Andor is excellent.
like in the War of the North and the South in the USA; people were brothers and the same faith on both sides.. Having a spy seems normal as the people before the empire lived together on many Worlds / Planets.
@@kosherwinespiritreview7772 Yes exactly. This show is a game changer.
There was never any credible possibility that the rebellion could have brought down the Empire *without* espionage, infiltration, and those willing to betray the government.
I’m gonna make the Argument he KNOWS he too far gone. As he said it himself “I burned my life for a sunrise I know I’ll never see.” He is the perfect foil to Saw and Mon mothma. Not quite extremist or pacifist. He’s in the middle a man who willingly made risk like the heist or trusting andor. I suspect we will see his downfall if not this season then definitely next season.
You’re not wrong at all. He started this war and the loose ends are going to kill him. Cassian has probably forgotten all about Luthen.
Sidious will turn up at the end to kill him personally.
He is in Rogue one, so we won't see him die!
@@adriansmith3427 I think he means Luthen's downfall, not Andor's.
@@Manterok luthian is in rogue one!
The Luthen Rael monologue at the end of episode 10 was almost as powerful as "tear drops in the rain" by Rutger Hauer; Roy in 'Blade Runner'.
Another interesting possibility that comes to mind given the clear turning point for Luthen at the time of the Emperor taking over...
Luthen somewhat matches the description of Ruwee Naberrie (Padme Amidala's father) if aged by 15 years since he was played by Graeme Blundell in Revenge of the Sith, and Kleya likewise would match his grand-daughter (Padme's niece) Ryoo, both in age (she'd be 23 here) and appearance (face shape and hair colour).
Given Ruwee was a pacifist who was shattered by the death of his daughter, it would make the entire monologue make sense. Ruwee and his wife were also seen using a similar walking canes in the wide shot when walking behind Padme's casket in the funeral procession at the end of Revenge of the Sith. Doesn't explain the Kyber crystal though.
Love it! He mentions he has been planning rebellion for 15 years… since Order 66… perhaps the ghosts he dreamt with are his fellow Jedi who died in the purge. Now he has tapped his darkness for revenge.
I have to rewatch it with this take in mind. That’s a cool theory
Ok I just re watched with your take in mind. The line that struck me was “I’m forced to use the tools of my enemies to defeat them”. It made me think of the behind the scenes manipulation and planning by palpatine. Luthen is using similar sneaky behind the scenes tactics for his own ends. If he is a former Jedi or light side force user that is bent on revenge, then this speech makes a lot of sense. Star Wars has never taken lightly the use of light and dark, Luthen said himself he’s made his mind a sunless place
Great points! I love this show. It forces me to think of Star Wars on a whole other level.
Loving Andor, it's really building up every episode. I agree the show doesn't need a Jedi or a a Sith, but his comment about the Kyber crystal early on about how "it means far more to him" seems to hint at something.
All the treasure he possesses, and a kyber crystal is his most precious, seems like there's something up with that for sure.
Luthen reminds me of the Allied officers and code breakers of WWII. There were many instances where people were sacrificed as to not give away that German and Japanese communication had been intercepted. Additionally, Allied officers had to on many occasions abandon their spies as to not give away the full extent of their infiltration. Regrettably, the logic of a situation can be seen as heartless but absolutely necessary.
From the Andor trailer, it also looks like Luthien’s ship emits red ‘lightsaber’ rays, suggesting when he uses kyber crystals they bleed red. My guess is he was a Jedi temple guard (hence he likes to operate in secrecy, in the shadows, and wear his antiques dealer mask), who turned to the dark side to battle his enemy, Palpatine and the empire. This would also explain why he has a Jedi temple guard mask in his shop (his own, from the past).
I think he’s a Jedi knight that turned due to Order 66, so now he’s a Dark Jedi. Cleia she’s he’s Padawan. My theory is Marrek, Luther will have a Scooby Doo moment to reveal Sam Wit. as StarKiller surprise!
Luthen is pragmatic and humble, to a degree. Humility is a personality trait of a Jedi. Plus he carries his cane like a saber, uses kyber crystals (at least 2 that are red). A lot of this points to him either being intimately familiar with the Jedi or was a Jedi himself.
OUTSTANDING! This was a really fun video. New to the channel & loving it!
Would be funny if luthen just learned all his sith and jedi skills from those holocrons he got in the back and wasnt even deeply tied to other characters
It could be possible
Well he'd need the force to open them
They aren't small ones either, they are exceptionally large. Likewise, how could he sell or price a product, if he didn't know what was in them. Unless he could open them himself he wouldn't know their contents. What if they are empty?
I feel like it would be impossible for the rule of 2 to be strictly enforced through out the galaxy. I believe after Bane it just meant the Sith would never again organize in great numbers or have one defining order. Instead their would be one master allowed to train an apprentice and together they would form their own Sith schemes in secret without alliance to any other Siths in the galaxy, and if they ever knowingly came across other Siths they wouldn't hesitate to kill them.
The rule of two doesn't even hold in the prequels that it came from. At that point in time, there is three walking around; Dooku, Maul and Sidious. Unpopular opinion perhaps, but I think what Yoda meant to say is: "There is always more than one to keep the teachings alive"
@@redelephantsdotnl Maul wasn't a true Sith given he was replaced
There's only two true Sith, that's the point of the rule of two.
Anyone who tries to be a Sith, is a false Sith as they aren't apart of The Order of The Sith
And who is there to say who's a member of the private club and who is not? Do Jedi not have to consider falling to the Dark Side, since there are already two Sith in the Galaxy? Nah, that doesn't make sense to me. Also, *DARTH* Maul was indentified as a Sith by those that would know. Nah, I'm not convinced.
@@redelephantsdotnl Maul was a Sith Assassin, he was barely a Sith for that long and then was replaced when he "died". He wasn't a Sith, but a pretender.
I think it is very possible he was a jedi, and has fallen, but rather than going properly to the dark side, he's focused his anger and hate into fixing the galaxy, even though he knows there will be no place left for him when he crosses the finish line. Its a very tragic character either way, and I honestly love it.
Grey Jedi
The whole menacing vibe of the Luthen scene is making me think likewise. Also wonder if he lost family or compatriots to Order 66.
I just commented that on another post. Great thinking!
He says as much pretty explicitly. "The equation I calculated 15 years ago"... which would have been around the time Order 66 was being carried out.
@@jarrodbright5231 not wrong, at all. It really struck me after making this video. And that’s the fun thing about theories…they’re just ideas. Possibilities that may or may not be true. More often than not they are untrue.
@@STARWARS_FANATIC I'd say what we can definitely read from this is that Luthen lost something important to him when the Emperor took over the Republic.
As to what that is... well that's the speculation part (at least until they tell us explicitly).
@@jarrodbright5231 if they ever tell us. I like the mystery of the character and I think it would be a cool twist if they never come out and spell it for us. Leave up to our imaginations.
A few notes to add here...
Maul was a Sith Assassin, not Apprentice. Plagis knew of Maul and his training. Sidious probably didn't take him as his actual apprentice until later when he had already decided he would kill his own master. This was something he and maul would have kept privet save for interactions with anyone that was not linked to Plagis. (I know I am spelling his name wrong, sorry). Anyway, the important bit is that at first, Maul was not his apprentice. He was trained to be an assassin. Same as Ventris who later Duko is ordered to kill because her skills in the force start to be a threat to Sidous. She sees a potential rivalry with Duko if she is allowed to live.
Additionally, new information about The Accolite has come out and we now know for sure that there were never strictly 2 Dark Side users. Dark Side cults existed everywhere. Among them are Force Sensitive members who aspire to become Sith Lords. The title Sith trails back to the origins of the Sith where the Sith were actually a species, not a title. They were prominent Dark Side users and that prominance just ended up getting their name spread across the whole Dark Side user ranks as a title. To be called a Sith at all was to be better and stronger than an Accolite. Accolites were considered to be in training to later earn their place as a Sith. That in mind, Accolites existed even during the time of Vader and Sidous. Granted, I think Sidious would have also delivered an execution order on as many as he could just as he did the Jedi to prevent any rivals from challenging him. It would not take much for another Accolite or Sith to recognize Sidious as a Sith Lord and he would probably be fairly well known as such among the cults.
With all that in mind, I think the possibility is there and I would be very interested if both Luthan and his assistant were Accolites who maybe just do not agree with the premise that the Sith have to rule an empire. They to are subjects to this empire and since its rise, they have not favored any better than the jedi or other commoners. It would be very interesting to see this rebellion comprise of not just angry citizens, but pissed off Dark Side users who might feel a bit betrayed that Sidious did not open the door for the Sith to rise in number again.
Sidious refers to him as his apprentice though, before they fight on Mandalore. Sidious says "I have found a new apprentice, you have been replaced"
It’s interesting how he was trying to stress Mon Mothma out for donations when she mentioned 400,000 imperial credits is big money when he was able to rob approximately 80 million credits from Aldahni. Also I’m sure he made a decent amount of money from his shop since it’s expensive to operate/rent in the higher levels of Coruscant.
I took the Luthen's gallery as a front to raise and wash money for the rebellion (selling trinkets for huge amounts.)
@@gr8tbigtreehugger I think the same thing
He won’t claim out right that he was responsible for Aldahni, however the way he rejoiced in the back office when he heard the news was…MANIACAL. Like he told Mon, he wants to evoke fear and make the empire overreact. It is definitely more about his ego than funding the rebellion. But why?
@@divadiba2886 you’re correct in that the money wasn’t the main driver of the heist. What luthen wanted was for the empire to get PISSED and to tighten their grip on every day people. He knew the presssure that the empire would put on regular people was what he needed for these people to get angry enough to fight. When mon says to him that innocent people will suffer, he reveals that it’s part of his plan. He knows the suffering is the catalyst for a full scale rebellion
@@philliphols V did the same thing in V for Vendetta.
I wouldn't say he's a Sith, just that he knows he has to do away with niceties in the name of the big picture. They're definitely setting him up as a Churchill with the inside guy's warning about the trap. Look up the Coventry Conundrum. It's a legit thing.
(edit) Also, people complain about weekly releases like this, but the spacing lets people talk and share theories. (And watch an episode a couple more times before the next one to catch all the details.) It builds communities in a way that all-at-once dumps can't. I think that has actually helped the show, not hindered it.
When I saw him standing on that bridge or walk way, my first thought was “ he looks like a sith”! They made him look like that purposely.
There is a razor thin line between Jedi and Sith. Luthen may have started on one side and crossed to the other in his efforts to spark the rebellion.
Loving this channel, thank you.
I don’t think he’s a force user at all, just a spymaster who is fanatical to the cause of toppling the empire, and is willing to do whatever it takes and sacrifice whoever it takes. He knows that he must get his hands dirty and will lose his humanity in the pursuit of his goal. Like he said in his speech, he gave up everything for a better tomorrow that he will never enjoy himself.
He claims he wrote this equation 15 years ago, which would align with order 66. Can’t imagine Luthen being this devoted unless he lost something he loved. My guess is that he was a very educated historian of Jedi and Sith lore who fell in love with a Jedi that died in order 66.
That’s probably the best one I’ve heard yet.
It's hard to see someone outside the order itself being permitted to be an "educated historian of jedi and sith lore" and just be openly dealing in the republic, since sith holocrons were highly corruptive and filled with knowledge considered forbidden by the order.
If Anything I think his monologue points towards the theory that he's a former Jedi. That now using the tools of his enemies is corrupting him. pulling him towards being a Dark Jedi more than a Sith
I would prefer that he isn't force sensitive but I do have to admit that Ep.10 actually made me think about it for the first time. He's using sith tactics in hopes of helping the jedi way survive. He also mentions the 15 years which makes me think his fight started on day one of the empire (Order 66). Plus the relationship with his companion can seem very apprentice like at times. I hope they don't go this route but there's huge potential if it's done right.
I thought so too. But there has to be a spark to ignite the Rebellion and rally those to it's cause. Most of these average everyday characters probably have never heard of the force. An instance of it being used and that it is in fact real will do that. "May the Force Be with You" becomes a war cry
She’s old enough to have been a YOUNGLING during Order 66…wouldn’t season 2 be the perfect time for an origin story?!?
@@divadiba2886 Ikr! I was thinking the same! I heard that the creator is bringing in people that are familiar with the "Star Wars" elements of Star Wars. That might be alluding to force stuff but idk if it's true. It's still super exciting to speculate!
When the elevator doors opened…I felt the same vibe. The darkness, the way his cape was flowing in the wind, his stance…reminded me of Anakin / Vader. I don’t believe he is a Sith, however. That said, imagine if he is a Sith, starting the Rebellion, not for “good” but to unseat his rival, Sidious.
Revenge of some sort???
@@divadiba2886 possibly. He’s not mentioned Sidious / Palpatine at all though, it’s Mon who constantly does. All I know, is, this is one of the best shows on TV, ever and it just so happens to also be Star Wars. Love it!
@@RonVining A G R E E D. All I’ve ever wanted and more.
Maybe he was a Jedi but he came to the conclusion that to fight a Sith you must turn to the dark side yourself. He's not a Sith but his own personal brand of Dark Side.
a grey jedi
He pretty much states this in the monologue.
The darkness is different within individuals, as we are all unique while thinking and viewing the world differently, science was created to bring all the other theories into a single belief that everyone can agree on, humans are driven by emotions, and nobody has control over their emotions, as emotions happen due to what is received by our senses, the emotions are messages to our brains that something is happening, this is out of a person control as the body itself does this, so we are slaves to the chemicals that are released due to the environmental and other peoples behaviours, all a person can do is feel the emotion and then have the strength to not act on that, this goes for the light also. We copy other human beings' behaviour to make ourselves more like the people we like, and sometimes we can hate someone or something that we find out that we become just like the enemy. But as Sun Zu said in his famous book, to know oneself and not the enemy you will lose 50 % of the battles, if you do not know your enemy or yourself you will lose 100% of the battles, but knowing oneself and the enemy you will never lose a battle. What everyone is missing is that if you embrace the darkness, it does not mean you live in pain and suffering all the time, or have to hurt or take over the planet, the darkness is our friend that happens to help us if we are being chased, we can slip into the darkness, as if you went into the light in that situation, you can be seen. All the Sith and Jedi failed to overcome or challenge either side of the force, as the force is both light and dark like electricity, the difference is the person and from psychology, they were all somehow abused to the point where they lost a connection to other people as they were all addicted to the force and followed blindly in some cases. Their childhoods shaped their minds to believe that violence is the only way to solve a problem. To stay away from the other side of the force as it's bad, but its not bad, the darkness is only absent of light, but in the dark bad things can happen and as I suggested above can save also, while the light can do the same. The YinYang is the true symbol of the human experience. Embrace the light and the dark and learn the other side of our existence that we fear that we are bad or we are this. We are everything and all at once.
He's just an adherent of realpolitik in his creation of the rebellion, it has nothing to do with the dark side or the force. He simply recognizes the practical necessities for conducting guerilla warfare against an overwhelming force.
Actually there is no such thing as a gray jedi. If you read the old republic books alot of the jedi about 1000 years before episode one started jedi way of thinking, actions, roles in society were very different from the jedi we know right now. The way the old republic jedi were is what your calling gray jedi.
I think Luthen Rael is neither Jedi nor Sith. I think he's a member of the Church of the Force.
Remember them? Lor San Tekka, the old guy at the start of The Force Awakens, was part of it.
They've been kept somewhat obscure in Disney canon since that movie, but the little that has been written about them fits not only Luthen, but his associates as well. It actually fits very neatly. The kyber necklace, the references to having taken "a vow", the fact that they like to meet secretly in the lower levels of Coruscant, the interest in ancient artifacts, even the hints at a connection to both light and dark sides of the force.
I'm calling it. He's Church of the Force.
Thoughts?
My bet is:
- he lost his wife/love & master when order 66. The kyber cristal necklace is a precious souvenir.
- he maybe is a dark Jedi. If I remember my sw lore correctly, those are not siths but force users that do not agree with a light vs dark separation. They are despised by the Jedi council while not being considered as 'evil'.
Andor is quite unmanichean in it's approach to sw...
Another thought: he is a repentous sith. His crystal is a gift from a Jedi that helped him to break free from the dark side. He now can master light and dark (Bindu anyone..?)...
Dark Jedi are dark side users practically, outcasted jedi turned to the dark, or original sith
dont know if its still a thing in canon but do you mean the grey jedis/force wielders who opposed the separation of light and dark and followed a dogma that pure balance can be only archived through the control over dark and light. smiliar to the jedi order when they had their main temple on tython with the two moons (light and dark moon)
another guess:
- he is part of a crime syndicate and inspired by maul who wanted to kill sidious
- former separatist who figured out their entire movement was used by the same people they believed to fight
I couldn't understand Luthen's dialogue, but I think what you brought up makes a very interesting point and it would explain his dialogue. You remember when Obi-Wan told Anakin that only sith believe in absolutes, and in the dialogue did not Luthen tell that person that there's no way out of his vow so to speak, isn't that an absolute. Just a thought. And that would explain when Luthen had changed back his appearance after meeting Andor, after he put on his wig and had to change his demeanor to someone who was different. I think there may be some validity to what you had said. Thank you
"only sith believe in absolutes" is an absolute. It was a dumb thing for Obi-Wan to say.
The more I think about it, the more it might be true.
He’s creating a rebellion that he can rule, use to overthrow the emperor and then become emperor.
As soon as you brought up the assistant I immediately thought apprentice.
It all adds up.
I love that there’s stuff to speculate on again
No, I would not feel kindness in starting a rebellion. That's the whole point, nobody in his situation would, not even you, despite how you feel. Because if you did, you wouldn't be starting a rebellion, you'd be rotting in prison, or hanging from a gibbet.
I won't bet my life he isn't a Sith, but the narrative that makes more sense is simply that he's being honest when he declares all that he's sacrificed. To me, *a* theme of the show is how rebellions are bloody, murderous undertakings and require oppressive behavior, rather than nobility, love... or kindness. Mon Mothma is learning that now, as she is about to sell off her daughter to a Crime Lord.
To stress the point even farther - *if* indeed he were a Sith, would that detail even matter to the hardcore Rebellion element around him? Does Sith even mean anything to non-Jedi? I think he would continue to be what he already is, an effective ally and rebel agent.
All I see is a man committed to his actions, and resigned to give his life to this cause.
I blame bad writing in Hollywood lately for you even entertaining the notion this could be true (re: Rings of Power and the big "reveal.") Thankfully the writers on this show are much better than that.
Doubt it. He "took an oath" and started down this path 15 years prior which is right about order 66 and Padma's death. He sacrificed a lot of emotions and bonds that Jedi are already above and Sith exploit. Fun theory though.
hes modeled after winston churchill. cunning, cold, and ends justifies the means. churchill was the same with his oss,
There was a lot of dark side vibes during his speech. At the point when he briefly raised his voice, it was amplified and echoed. I think he was using force voice/force persuade (a la Palpetine's "do it!" in E3).
1:07 I didn't realise you were going to talk about Knight Rider :)
That whole segment gave me some serious Mass Effect/KOTOR vibes.
Right? One of the best monologues I’ve seen in years.
@@STARWARS_FANATIC fantastic! It really made you feel for the guy too! I have no sympathy for the rebel spy. He has a family and a successful career. Luthen's life is his devotion to 'the cause.' No room for love or freedom from the fight.
@@indiana_holmes agreed. He even seemed to tear up when he was talking. The other guy also seems a bit cowardly.
@@STARWARS_FANATIC totally agree! The spy is one of those types that thought by being on the inside, he'd have it "easy," rather than being aware that he was in fact taking on the most difficult position one could possibly choose.
Hell, even if he did bail, there's no way the ISB would let him go. He's an intelligence officer for crying out loud. That's a lifetime career, even in a Republic. There's no 'normal' after that.
@@indiana_holmes agreed. He’s doomed on both sides…or rather stuck. Luthen would kill him and the ISB probably would imprison him at the least.
In SW Legends there was a number of Jedi that left the order following Count Dooku's lead before the Clone Wars began. Some fort for the separatists but others just simply walked away from it all. If changed his identity over a decade prior to order 66, and learned how to hide in plain sight much like Darksiders from Bane to Sidious and not took part in anything that would show is touch of the force he could very well be a pre Clone Wars Jedi exile. Talking about his loss and ghost sounds allot like someone who left the real world military for whatever reason just prior to his buddies being shipped off to war and in the case of Jedi it would be worse because even though he may have disagreed with the order I seriously doubt he would have wanted to see them be purged by the system they fought for, perhaps to the point that he's lost touched with the force. Unlike the Jedi who at one the run post order 66 he can hide in plain sight because they can't sense him.
Sacrificing kindness could mean he just doesn’t have the luxury of being kind all the time anymore. If you’re going to fight a war you can not do it with kindness!
Luthen is a reminder that you don't need force powers to be a sith Lord. Treachery and intrigue are pathways available to anyone.
Adding to the Sith theory is the Sabre blades that unfold from his ship in the trailer also .. Luthen .. Lucifer .. he might not be against palpatine but with him to draw the rebels into a decisive battle like in EP 6 … and what if we get the reveal in season 2 and have Asoka cameo in to dispatch him before Rogue One
No. Not everything in Star Wars has to be lightsabers and Jedi and Sith and the Force and pew-pew-pew! The idea that the birth of the Rebellion had to include some dark and dirty work - and Han shot first, by the way - is one of the most intelligent and interesting aspects of Andor, the show, and Luthen the character. The idea that Luthen is a Sith because he’s doing dirty work has to be the stupidest theory I’ve heard regarding his background, and if it turns out to be true, this show will have crashed and burned worse than the final season of Game of Thrones.
EXACTLY
I came in search of this very idea after watching it. Dude stands out from the rest of the characters for a reason.
It’s not cannon anymore, but the Jedi shadows were on the edge of the dark side and operated outside of the council in the old lore. They were sith hunters and flirted with the dark side.
I’m not saying he is Jedi, but it is a possibility.
My thoughts exactly
The only thing missing in the last scene is him holding a lightsaber 😁
…or using the force to close the elevator door!!!!! That would have been WIZARD
Oh brother here we go again.
If we go by the items in the shop..he might be a gungan.
Even the dreaded sith Lord..Jar Jar..
What a monologue by Luthen. Still gives me chills…
Its probably symbolic - a mix of you have to play like your enemy to have a chance and nietzsche's you can become the very evil you try to fight.
The entire show is about sacrifice, ordinary people struggling and that the rebellion isnt just the light good guys but a complex mix of grey shades and different fractions aligned in the cause to overthrow the empire (some more rational, some more pacifist, some extremist, some thugs etc) and Luthen is the guy (hopefully we get the background) who sacrificed all to unite all these grey shades from Saw Guerra to Mon Mothma to one serious rebellion.
I dont think Gilroy will overthrow this all with a force wielder in the shadows at the end.
Maybe this was said before... But the part that stood out to me was giving the Khyber crystal to Andor. I felt it odd that if he was a Jedi=, he would give up one so easily, knowing the intrinsic value of it. Yet if he was a Sith who defeated Jedi and kept them as Trophies, it would still be important but I would not put it past a Sith to use it as leverage for something he/she was working towards.
When he met andor, he said something about when he meets somebody he understands them and can read them and the rest he makes up..something along those lines. I found that strange, I really do believe he’s force sensitive and it would be amazing for a sixth to start the rebellion that helps bring down the empire
I also feel he is force sensitive
In Rogue One, Andor says we've all done terrible things for the rebellion.
I just finished Episode 10 and I was getting some Darkside Vibe coming on during the scene on the elevator with the double agent.
The armor is either an oops with set dressing as it is actually seen in the shop next to the entrance to the back and then fully in the back or he has 2 of them.
Or he just rotates his stock...
I so thought he was talking about Maul in the last episode, a la Solo movie. I got so excited then let down. Dang show is a rollercoaster ride.
Andor has the best fucking speeches. first sauls now luthens. they give me fuckining chills
Darth Treya and Kleya. Coincidence? I think not
In the tradition of Star Wars putting Easter egg clues in names of characters, may I offer up: Kleya = Dark Leia😮
It would be midblowing if instead of a prequel for Andor character, we are watching prequel to the next trilogy main villian, who secretly used Rebellion and Skywalkers to defeat Palpatine and clear out scene for himself.
that luthen headshot in black hoodie ,from the poster i presume, looks like a picture of darth bane
They better have the same team in the second series because this is SO GOOD. Mandalorian had the rule of cool down, but this is carried not only by the visuals, and the superb nuanced writing, but mostly the incredible acting. Serkis was incredible and the exchange with Skarsgard ion the platform was amazing.
The way i'm leaning after the last episode, is pretty much as you say: Luthen was a jedi, the crystal was his own, a memory of his old life, but he is using dark side methods to try to defeat the dark side...also, to shield himself from the emperor's sight perhaps, so he can stay so close to the seat of power. Either way, he's an expert at manipulation and presentation.
Spoilers: So that amazing speech, he says exactly what someone would say who is a jedi who turned to the dark to fight the dark. BUT, there are two looks he gives before he starts talking which could be "what WOULD a jedi who turned to the dark to fight the dark say.".... and...." ok, yep, i'll say that", so a sith deception.
Or maybe just deciding to be open with the guy because there is so much at stake. WHO KNOWS haha, and that's why i'm loving it. Intelligent writing.
Also a bit of misc evidence Luthen is some sort of force user: Inthe episode where he flies Andor off his planet, he directs Andor precisely to where the medkit relative to Andor, despite that being about 10 feet behind his back. Just a touch more than generalised awareness.
Emotions, instincts, attachment, sacrificing inner peace, urges, gaining a inner darkness and power craving are all inner changes that a sith undergoes. Anger and hate is what they prefer but no emotions are off the table to use for one's benefit, focus and strength.
Depending on the circumstances, I could see Cassian answering the same way.
I still think he is part of Red Dawn. Qi'ra talks about Maul's plan to destabilize the empire and her collection of artifacts in the comics. Plus their whole thing is about sacrificing yourself for the collective; that 100 hands is better than 1. Everyone is expendable. Very up Luthen's alley.
It is possible he is Sith and it would set him up to face off against Vader, Yoda, Obi Wan, Mace Windu or Ashoka in another series.
I think his son was a Jedi that was killed in order 66 or while in hiding.I think the double agent with the moustache was the one who gave up his son.
The kyber crystal is from his dead sons lightsaber.
Luthen definitely has one of the best(possibly the best) monologues I've ever heard in Star Wars. Something that would have sounded just as brilliant if said in a movie based in the real world. I hope this series carries on to it's conclusion because despite its slow pace you can still feel it pulling you into the darkest regions og the Rebellion. I hope they finally bring the Bothan into the story because they've definitely been neglected in Star Wars.
Yes! A Bothan story would be so awesome! They included them in the Heir to the Empire novel in 92’ but we haven’t heard anything since then.
@@STARWARS_FANATIC I still need to read that series
@@jimmyhoffa2530 I highly recommend it…along with the two newer Thrawn trilogies.
I thought for a second that his eyes went a shade yellow when he was getting mad.
Now we are going to need a Star Wars Luthen show. 🥰
A fun idea to explore….
1. He is a collector allowed to own/sell jedi and sith artifacts (instead of trophies for Palpatine).
2. He is willing to let Kreegyr and his men die in an ambush.
3. He has a “lightsaber” armed ship… but the beams were red - like the sith.
4. He said the following: My anger, my ego, my unwillingness to yield, my eagerness to fight, they've set me on a path from which there is no escape.
When I saw him put on that black cloaked hood I said oh my goodness he is a Sith! But I think he may have been an ex Jedi Temple guard because he had a kyber crystal. Food for thought I wonder where they're going to go and just two episodes left to go.
Wow my mahnn... good stuff keep it up
A strong theory. I thought at least a fallen jedi. Before all those inquisitors started running about, most Dark Jedi would aspire to be Sith. Inquisitors possibly do as well, though their hierarchy forbids it.
The impression I get from the Inquisitors - and this is, admittedly, not knowing all the lore - is that, sure, they utilize the Force, they are dark, but it’s in the interests of the Emperor and Vader that they aren’t well learnt in the Dark Side. They are gainfully employed, but not brainwashed. Susceptible, yes, but they’ll never be Sith. Even the ones like the Grand Inquisitor, former Jedi. The glass ceiling is firm. So then you have people like Reva who care about absolutely nothing except her own drive, and that’s the downside of the middleman position the Inquisitors are in. I imagine some of them yearn for power they’ll never see.
@@thestarseeker8196 This is pretty accurate to what Inquisitors were
You always put the more expensive items at the back of the shop. Two reasons: security and sticker shock. The front of the shop is what is most likely seen from the outside. This is where you put the items you're more likely to sell price-wise. It's what entices the buyer in. Once they're in, then you put the progressively more expensive items further back. The psychology is that once they customer has walked far enough in, they're more resistant to walking out empty handed.
For security, it just makes sense to keep the more expensive items towards the back because the thieves are more interested in seeing what they can grab easily and leave.
I've thought he was a Sith since he first appeared to "help" Cas. The last episode though sealed the deal, A. his monologue on the bridge, B. the 2 red Lightsabers that came out of the side of his ship like Darth Maul's double sided lightsaber, C. He seems like he has a score to settle with the Emperor. He seems like he had been the Emperor's apprentice at one time, but didn't quite make the cut so he was cast aside for a new apprentice, Vader. He seems like the type that would adhere to the adage, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." so he's stirring up the hornets nest and helping to organize the rebellion to make waves for the Emperor as a distraction for his underlying plans.
Episode 10 was seriously good.
Like Game-of-Thrones-Season-3 good. The only shitty part is that there's only 2 episodes left, then we gotta wait 'till 2024 for more.
He's a dark jedi for sure. Maybe an elite class of force users who meddle in the gray. Count Duku qui gon jinn seemed like they were grayish
My quick guess would be Rael Averroes, a former apprentice to Count Dooku. Known to be around the age of Qui-Gon-Jinn and had spoken to his former master just before the clones were being ordered, made, or cloned, what is the proper term here? When he said he had to give up love. Sith would have given up love a long time ago and he would have used more forceful tones where his subject Lonnie Jung was concerned. He was a Jedi who was kinda fast and lose with the no attachments side of the Jedi code. He had a female apprentice that he had to kill and then was assigned to protect another young woman on the thrown on some far-off planet that doesn't come to mind. So maybe that is when he could have seen what the corporations of the planet were doing with the additional information from the Count and you can see the game unfold right in front of you. Since he is a much lesser known Jedi his story ccould be adjusted so he would be the last apprentice of Count Dooku. But I haven't seen Tales of the Jedi yet so, maybe? Blackstar signing out.
My theory is that Luthen is a scientist who worked on Kyber crystals and has realised the Empire is building some kind of super weapon with it. He is probably one of Orson Krennic’s cadre that and I say this because, in his speech, he refers to an equation he wrote 15 years ago. It is currently -15 BBY in Andor and the Empire was founded around 15 years ago. We know, from the book, catalyst, that Krennic had huge teams of scientists, including Galen Erso, working on the Death Star weapon as early as -21 BBY because the Death Star was actually under construction by the Geonosians before the end of the clone wars. Luthen’s fixation with Kyber (he gives one to Andor) the fact he has a super advanced ship that many think is powered by Kyber all point to him being some kind of power specialist like Galen Erso. I think he knows what is coming (i.e. the Death Star) and so understands what the Empire really is.
Hmmmm not a bad idea at all.
@@STARWARS_FANATIC I am a scientist and feel that Luthen acts like a someone who is cerebral. He is not a man of action and even admits he is a coward, when speaking to Saul Gerrera. This is why I don’t think he is a Sith or a Jedi. The holocrons could come from those distributed by the Empire to scientists seeking to understand the nature of Kyber. I seem to recall that from Catalyst but I could be misremembering!
He mentioned 15 years. That is how long it has been since the Empire began and order 66. He began his fight then.
I don’t think Luthen is force sensitive. But he could have ties, deep ties perhaps, to Crimson Dawn. At this point of the timeline, the organization should still be run by Maul. One of his objectives was always the destruction of the Sith. In the comics, Qi’ra becomes leader of Crimson Dawn after Maul’s death and wages her own war to defeat the Sith.
I also think this too
Either this (which could explain how he got all the artifacts in his shop) or former separatist who figured it out that CW was scripted.
At the end of Episode 5 when he comes off the radio, you see both Jedi and Sith holocrons on the shelf behind him to the right. Tempting, but i think he's just a collector who maybe wishes for Force greatness but never had it in him.
Hiding in plain sight.
This is a recurring theme in this show.
I don’t believe Luthen is a sith. He does feel off tho. Imo, this is because he is not a “good guy.” He may be fighting to cast off the yoke of the Empire, but he has no problem sacrificing people or killing for the cause. His men are disposable. He demonstrates this by letting Kreeger and 50 rebels be slaughtered in an Imperial trap. He refused to warn them so as to not alert the ISD. Not even Saw will stoop so low as to sacrifice his men. I think the reason he feels like a sith is cuz Luthen and Palpatine are ruthless sociopaths hellbent on getting what they want, no matter the price.
I hope he’s either a second acolyte of Darth Plagueis/Hego Demask or Darth Plagueis used essence transfer to occupy the body of Luthen Real. Either way Hego Demask also used to hide Sith symbolisms in plain and not so plain sight
A clue is Luthen's shop asssistant that is a little over protective. & Mon Mothra risking her wealth,status & family. They could be risking all,not only for who he is but for What he is.
His ship is powered by Kyber crystals. In one of the first trailers his ship has weapons that look like red light sabers. They are either hiding him being a sith in plain sight or throwing a diversion our way to make the finale that much sweeter. I’m inclined to think he is a sith.
His ship is a Fondor Haulcraft, those were probably just reoutfitted hauling technology
He's not a sith but he's saying that he has damned himself, it reminds me of the polish underground or other insurant operations where they assassinated and killed each other in ways that made them feel like they have become what they hated but it was the only way to find success against an enemy that does not play by the rules. A lot of extremists have found themselves in similar situations throughout human history and really how confirmation bias occurs when people are like I am right and because I am right whatever I do is what must be done to succeed. In one film they had scenes where Christians were saying that God is on their side and God wills a war between the Christians and Muslims and The Muslims had the same gathering saying God Wills it and it is our land. When two sides see themselves as right there is no way out but war.
I don’t know what he is, but his character is super intriguing. I also know Andor s some of the best Star Wars we’ve had in a long time, it is a different type of story. I really like the Cold War, spy versus spy feel. It is refreshingly new in the Star Wars galaxy. The ruthlessness of the Empire reinforces the feel of the Empire from the original trilogy.
I love The Mandalorian, I liked The Book of Boba Fett (looking forward to a second season), and I’m eagerly awaiting Asoka, but Andor is a different story, the story that sets up all of the Star Wars we’ve all come to enjoy.
I thought he was a Sith after the first scene with Andor, as Andor asked the question himself “how do you know so much about me?”
I don't agree. Or rather, I don't think the writers are even implying anything force related. I don't think the writers are connecting anything in this show to "the force". The _whole point_ of the show is that it doesn't require space wizards to tell a compelling story about struggling against tyranny. It's about normal people taking their fate into their own hands and doing the extraordinary. It's about sacrifice and resistance.
The above being said, I also feel like there is a fundamentally different interpretation going on here.
When Luthen says he "is forced to use the weapons of my enemy against them" he is talking about how he is no longer the naïve idealist he was when he started fighting the empire. He is saying that he has had to become a rotten, terrible person who uses other people like pawns, and sacrifices them to achieve his goals and that it has taken its toll on him.
None of these things imply he is a Sith, they mean he is a cold, callous spy who believes that by using people the way the empire does, he has become just as bad.
-Sacrificing Calm means he is never permitted to relax, he is always stressed or worried about being found out.
-Sacrificing Kindness means he cannot be charitable or show empathy for others, he cant spend resources on others or show compassion because that exposes a weakness, he cannot value another person beyond what they can contribute to the cause.
-Sacrificing Kinship means he cannot have family or friendship, the bond between comrades. He has to USE people to accomplish things, they are tools, a means to an end.
-Sacrificing Love means he cannot have a relationship with someone, he likely had at least one person whom he would have been happy to spend his life with, that isn't a possibility for a man with multiple identities and leading a double-life. (When Luthen talks about love in the video, I don't read a cold-heartless reaction, I read someone who gave up on the chance at romance because he knew it would only hurt the person he loved.)
-Sacrficing "all chance at inner peace" is saying "I am going to be haunted by the decisions I have had to make to even be able to make this fight a reality". _Just because a cause is noble doesn't mean that a person "automatically feels good" about the choices they have had to make and the actions they have taken to achieve their goals_. I feel like there is a fundamental naïvete in the idea that "fighting for a good cause" gives one inner peace. The whole point of this speech is to show the audience that Luthen has had to get his hands dirty, has had to betray people who want the same thing he does, and has had to do ugly terrible things to fight back against tyranny. The point is to show that "the rebellion" isn't some goody-two-shoes band of misfits who magically triumph over evil, they have to lie, cheat, steal, betray, and kill to fight back.
He shares his dreams with the ghosts of comrades he lost along the way, people he's betrayed, people who lost their lives because of his actions. Very likely these people shared his dream of overthrowing the empire, now they haunt him.
If we apply what he has said in this monologue to his actions, specifically allowing Kreegyr and his men to get caught and die to maintain the value of his informant, much of this is analogous to stories of British intelligence in the second world war knowingly allowing strikes from the germans to succeed just to prevent them from realizing their communications had been decrypted. In the same vein, he treats Cassian as a loose end, sending assassins to kill him so the empire cannot get information from him. All of this is to show the grittier, more complex side of the story of the rebellion instead of the touchy-feely, "see kids, the good guys automatically win against the bad guys" that the rest of modern star wars depicts.
I feel like we're trying way too hard to tie something together that isn't there. Now, I am not trying to criticize the fun of tossing around fan theory, that is all part of fandom and I am not writing all this just to try to be like "you are so wrong". People are allowed to have their own opinions and head-cannon. I just wanted to organize my interpretation of what is going on, because there is a strange habit in fandom where once a "special" thing exists, fans start seeing it everywhere, and that certainly applies to SITH stuff.
100% agree! Very well said.
I think people are thinking too much into this so I'll say he's no sith or force user. There is alot of people in black water organization like him. If you don't know what that is look it up
I really do think he used to be a jedi. But has accepted he can no longer find inner peace as he says in his speech so fights fire with fire
I really don’t think he’s a Sith or even a force user. I couldn’t imagine either of them fighting the emperor the way he’s doing it. There’s fun pieces of “evidence”, though. I noticed the lightsaber walking stick as well.
My personal theory is that he really was just an antiques dealer and maybe an academic.
I think he’s a former Jedi, not necessarily a full time dark side user now, but definitely pushing the boundaries.