Jimi: Had a long story to share with you but must have hit the wrong button, and it all went away. I'm also retired AF, navigator on the KC.(SEA era, etc) Before I hit the wrong button again...God Bless and thank you for your service. Dan
My dad, William R. Helm, flew a P-61 in the Burma Theatre. One of his comments was he liked to fly the ones without the remote-controlled turret because it slowed him down, and he had plenty of firepower (it was built by General Electric as I recall). I still have his flight jacket, the coolest patch I have ever seen.. Black Widow with a Black crescent moon on tan leather round patch. Also, inside the jacket, Chinese that explained "we are here to fight the Japanese" as we were allies w/China
Wow! What a story! Any chance you could send me a pic of this patch??? ralphsoccer@bellsouth.net. Widow pilots NEVER got the respect they deserved being night fighters.
Sheeesh! That pre-flight was killer! That Piper Cherokee I use to fly didn't have one fouth the check list to go through...lol I'm amazed that these pilots weren't overwhelmed flying these beautiful birds let alone combating the enemy. And,to the poster,this video is just some awesome stuff!! Thank You for posting it.
I have been around 70yrs, flew in radial engine planes, one thing we were taught early on "DO NOT WALK THROUGH THE ARC OF A PROP!" I wish they had gotten that right. Other wise it was great video thanks a lot.
My Dad flew the P-61 out of California, I think he said Hammer Field. Training was during nights over the Pacific. Targets were Japanese subs surfacing near shore. He always said easy to fly and powerful engines, with radar making finding targets easy.
My dad said he'd see guys just take off going almost straight up in these things. I built a model of one as a kid. Dad was an engine mechanic on B-24's and then B-29's. His team was given some engine speed change title I guess. Didn't surprise me trying to work with him as an insulator. lol. I've never seen a more efficient individual in his work.
Amazing in that this was obviously the era in Army Air Corp and/or USAF flying before crew/cockpit checklists were used 100% of the time...with mandatory crew checklist procedures being taught, used and checked against by instructors/evaluators. In my 31 years flying with USAF, never once did I NOT use a checklist....even for the most routine/rote phases and tasks. Not surprisingly back then, crew induced errors, accidents, mishaps and crashes were quite common.
Dad had much respect for the "Mossie" as you call it, and British troops in general. He also had respect for the Japanese troups (especially on the ground), and he grew up with Japanese kids on the farm in Kennewick, Washington. Anyway, I built that model too many times (Mossie) and it was cool. I know dad was really into speed, that's why he liked the P-61 without the GE Remote-Controlled Machine Gun/Cannon on the roof...I don't think the Mossie was as advanced, but fast as hell...
I think everyone has their personal favorite airplane. im retired airforce KC-135 but if ever I coulda been on a P-61 I woulda! hoped for a ride on a P-61! I dream someday to see one!
The last P-61 I heard of was in China in the 1980's sometime, selling for $1 million. Don't know if it's still there. They started out with a top turret with the guns, but that was removed and the opening faired over after they were discovered to not be worth the trouble. As a kid I built a 1946 balsa model kit, boy did they get the details wrong! That kit would be worth huge money nowadays. Cleveland Models still has plans IIRC.
A P61 was used when they rescued prisoners in a Japanese POW camp. The rangers needed a distraction while they were sneaking up on the camp in the daylight. The Army brass sent in a P61 to overfly the camp. The guards freaked out and were too busy watching the plane to see the rangers. The POW's were freaked too. They'd been locked up in 1941-42 and did not know that the US had such planes. The raid was successful and many were rescued.
Not all the P-61s had thedorsal .50 cal turrent, about half did not due to tail buffeting problems. They used to train P-61 crews at Hammer Field, no the Fresno/Yosemite Intenation Airport at Fresno CA. My Dad, while not aircrew, was there for a bit in WWII
I have some cool pics of him in Burma, I guess the plane was so advanced it was classified for a long time. Also, I believe it was the only WWII plane used in Korea. First with radar too. This was the most advanced plane of its time. Dad was a star quarterback in High School, and was quite an intelligent guy to boot. He wanted to be a test pilot, but mom talked him out of it as it was dangerous as hell. They don't make them like that anymore; I am just an echo of my dad as far as that goes.
@AmberMo2011 "An obituary notice comes with every bite" sums up the Black Widow all too well. This aircraft was as fast as many single engine fighters in service at the time, was maneuverable as a fighter needed to be, was armed like a flying flak battery, was designed from the ground up to carry airborne intercept radar, had no vices in handling. I've studied military aviation for over 40 years: anyone who calls the P-61 Black Widow a "piece of crap" hasn't got a freakin' clue.
@AllSingingAllDancing That's why pilots get the nice, big checklists. It makes sure they don't forget (and gives the shorter ones something to sit on so they can see out of the windows).
@MasonZstudios There aren't *any* flying today, though there is a long-term project to restore one to flying status. Only four P-61s are known to have survived at all. Compared to other World War II fighters, which were often built in the thousands or tens of thousands, relatively few P-61s were built (around 700), and they were only in service for a few years before being replaced by jets, so this is to be expected.
It's a very cool plane but I've always had love for the P-47 Thunderbolt. That plane is like a pit bull. I know this comment is ten years old... did you survive?
I also have a letter from dad to grandpa, talking about the A-Bomb and he was "...going to go for the record..." as far as I know, they "lost" his records, and when he was on his way home, the plane crashed on takeoff. He said only he and the pilot lived, he woke up on the tarmac with landing gear 12" from his head. One of his buddies was rolled up into a gooey ball, and one guy was as flat as he had ever seen anyone. I know that after all that combat, this helped kill him young--at 56 years.
He 115? You probably mean the He 219. Which also never lived up to it's intended specifications, although it was better than the 110 as a nightfighter. Saying that: the 110 was quite effective as a nightfighter. Heaviest losses to nightfighter squadrons equipped with 110s occured when they were pressed into action against daylight bombing raids, where they suffered horribly.
As I said, I'm not sure what you think the argument is. The P-51H is still faster than the K4 and the Ta 152. But there is doubts about that the K4, in practise, was faster than the P-51D. The figure is theoretical, as I've said, and it also requires the cooler to be closed. To reach a top level speed at optimum altitude, you have to accelerate for a long time. Disregarding possible compressibilty drag, K4 has to do that on MW boost and then also close its cooler. It cannot do that for long.
Don't know what you're thinking of with the He 115, that was a very early war floatplane, about 150 mph slower than the Bf 110. Me 210 and 410 maybe? They were developments of the Bf 110, but neither ever replaced it. Bf 110 made a very good night fighter, but that's not what it was designed for, it was only after sustaining heavy losses during the Battle of Britain that it was redeployed as a night fighter. German command actually pulled entire units of Bf110s off the line during BoB.
@Ripley44mag Excuse me, but my grandfather was a lieutenant P-61 night fighter in WWII. He could've been a captain, but refused. He also played a part in inventing the night vision goggles. This "piece of crap" and my grandpa helped win the war. So I'd appreciate you not saying that this wonderful airplane is anything less than amazing. Thanks.
The Mossie Night Fighter had 4-20mm cannon in the nose. I have pics of my dad standing under the nose of one, so there is no question on this point. The fighter version had the cannon and the 4-.303's with a bomb bay too. Also, wood construction was not a bad thing, except maybe in the tropics. If a German pilot shot one down, he was awarded 2 kills instead of 1. I think a contest between the Mosquito and the P-61 would be a close one, with the Mossie as the more manuverable of the two.
The reasons you see different figures for K4, is that it's vulnerable to Luftwaffe fanboy'ism. + that different K4s had different engines and fuels. + that figures for K4 are entirely theoretical, never measured. Those calcs also stipulate perfect build, a closed cooler, and carry the note that compressibility effects have not been taken into account. Messerschmitt were good at estimating 109 speeds. So from that angle it's credible. Compressibility effects, however, likely makes it invalid.
@Big Bill O'Reilly - My, aren't we negative. I'm trying to see it from your point of view. Perhaps you're a P-61 enthusiast, and would not like to see the P-38 come out on top in the numbers game.
@Big Bill O'Reilly - - I have arthritis, and losing hair on the back of my scalp. I've gained 20 pounds during this China virus pandemic shut down, and the gun I ordered at the gun shop was defective and had to be returned. I'm not experienced at researching stats on airplanes, and would appreciate to see what the characteristics are in comparison. It may be that somebody has already done that. It would be a lot of work. You seem frustrated that I don't know this stuff, and so does that mean you are an expert on these matters? If so, don't be such a grumpbag. I'm not an expert, and so I would like to see comparisons. I have read most of the comments under this video, and they don't seem to agree with each other very much. In fact, many seem to be uptight, like you. You might know what the ceiling is for each aircraft, or which aircraft handles better in a dive, and what the cruising speed of each aircraft is. I'd like to know the difference in armament between the aircraft. Some of the comments listed these things, but it would be easier for comparison if they were laid out in an easier and convenient format. And it would be interesting to know what engines they had, and something about the propellers... like how many blades, and how long they were. It would be of interest to compare the superchargers, and why they didn't use turbochargers. It would also be interesting to know if there were any pilots who had the opportunity to fly both planes, and to read their opinions. Also, it would be interesting to see the weight of each plane's bomb loads, and the weight of the planes, in comparison. Plus, it would be of interest to read how many enemy aircraft each plane shot down. Ultimately, since these aircraft were designed for different missions, it may be that investing in the P-61 was a mistake, and it would have been better to make design changes to the P-38 to fly at night.
@Big Bill O'Reilly - You should experiment with cordiality and avoid expressing your anger in the comments. If you disagree with someone, it would be better if you didn't get emotional.
@Big Bill O'Reilly - We haven't met. We've merely exchanged comments. I wouldn't want to meet you. You don't seem to be a well adjusted individual. Instead of asking me what's wrong with me...you should find the source of your mean temper.
@@mu99ins I did lot's of comparisons on these two. The P-61 could not turn or dive like the 38. Nor could it climb as fast. Both were made for different missions, hope this helps,,,,,,, cheers!
Actually, the P-51 was the fastest thing in the sky, for practical purposes, if you don't count, like rare Me-262. During '44, when Luftwaffe west was destroyed, allied fighters had a 35-60 Mph advantage over the various 109 and 190 versions fielded against them. It didn't fly in Europe, but the fastest P-51H did 487 Mph. This H was considerably modified. There was actually little point in that. If there had been military need, same engine fitted to the D would have given close performance.
What are the operational differences between a P-61 an an A-26? I know the P-61 was a night fighter and the A-26 was a medium bomber, but other differences were there?
Hey, saying that a night fighter had a "negligible effect on the war" sounds pretty naive to me...My father (not grandpa) flew a P-61 in the Burma theater, and he did a lot more than shoot down enemy planes...He shot the shit out of a lot of stuff on the ground too, including trains, troop carriers, trucks, etc. First plane to have radar on-board helped a lot too. Germany and Japan had their problems with production for sure, but discounting everyone else's efforts smells of bad shit to me pal
My statement was wrong, however, about K's max speed without MW. It should be without some kind of 'notleistung'. The K can run with notleistung settings at altitude without MW. Performance is lower ofc, but not so low as on 'kampfleistung' settings, which are in the region of P-51's max cruise for G. No figure for K.
I'm not sure what you think the argument is here, but the K4 was first delivered only very late '44, and only in small numbers. By this hour, the air battle in the west was won. And compressibility does not affect _WINGS_ until higher speeds, but it may well increase drag from small, local obstacles to airstream.
@stingray666 No doubt about it. That was a time of promoted drinking & it was a rare pilot who didn't. Still, quite the number of different details the pilot had to bang through on his hungover/drunk checklist, knowing which were more important than others. One of my favorite airplanes, a most impressive piece of aircraft.
Not to go more OT, but: The 110 was far from being a failure in the BoB.Higher losses started, when they were ordered not to go free hunting in advance of the bombers but to stay close to them. Losses in 109s also rose dramatically then. In fact the 110 had a better loss to kill ration then the 109. In C.Bergstroms Book "Battle of Britain" Bf-109 squadrons achieved 815 kills to ~534 losses= kill ratio 1,52 zu 1 Bf-110 squadrons achieved 407 kills to ~196 losses= kill ratio 2,07 zu 1 Loss/Kill:
is there any reason temperature gauges were calibrated in Celsius (Centigrade) for an American plane, seeing as everything else were still in Imperial units
Yes. This is correct, as I can see. 'Kampfleistung' is without MW, as MW could only be used for 10min. ('Steigkampfleistung' and 'Sondernotleistung' is with). Though I have to say pilots prob on occasion extended beyond that, since they had MW supply for much more. At this late time engine life was not important on the western front. Survival was. My point about the K's relevance, was that in late '44 and '45, going up when american fighters were around, was suicidal and didn't happen much.
how strange, Maybe I assumed incorrectly but I thought for a twin engine aircraft of this type it would have counter rotation props ? One prop rotates CW while the other rotates CCW ? I see near the end of this video when shutting down the engines the props slow and come to rest both spinning in the CCW rotation.
Mosquito didn't have radar (a first for an airplane on the P-61), so I'm not so sure you wouldn't want that when you were fighting at night...Also, dad flew the P-61 without the remote-controlled GE machine gun, and said it made the plane faster and that was very important. As far as the guns on a Mossie vs. Black Widow, no comparison (check out Black Widow's vs. Mossie, even without the RC Machine Gun Turret on the roof).
We used a variation of the Mosquitoes 20mms, the DAD used radar before us, also developed by them first. The mosquitos had 4 .30 cal mgs. The P61 w/o top turret only had it's 4 cannon. Still enough firepower. The Widow' s top turret was an problem for the pilot unless locked strait forward. The B model was lighter, faster and more maneuverable with guns removed. Military Aviation Historian and author.
My dad taught radar in the Seattle area during most of WWII. But, in 1945, they sent him on an aircraft carrier to the Philippines, which he did not like at all. One of the few stories he told me was a low ranking officer ordered him to remove the radar from all the planes on the carrier. He replied to the officer, "Yes, Sir." I don't remember exactly what the wording was, maybe it's different in the Navy.....something like "Aye-aye Sir."? This was a lesson from my dad to me. The lesson being, in the military, if you decide not to follow orders, you do it by saying "Yes, sir." instead of "No, sir." A lesson I used much later in the army. So, the next day, the officer came down in a hurry to ask my dad if he took out the radars, and my dad said, no. The officer was greatly relieved. That was one of those bone-head orders you cannot follow.
Interesting film....I was particularly curious about the engine-out procedure: radically different from what we did in the DC-3s where it was immediately jam full throttle, full mix and full rpm pitch control on BOTH donkeys while "raising the dead", trimming out and once the bird is stable, THEN checking for things and feathering the dead fan. Interesting.
@AmberMo2011 The versions with the 4 x .50 cal turrets had lead angle sensors like an analog version of an M1A1 tank's fire control system (minus the range finder). I understand they good at off nose angle targets. Anyone know why these turrets were deleted in later models?
Not that fast? So what were the specs on the three (Spitfire, Messershmidt, Mustang) anyway? I guess I am a naive person when it comes to such specs; enlighten me please.
the p61 was with out a doubt the best night fighter of the war. 4 20mm and 4 40cals would send you to the pearly gate very fast. this was a night fighter and would not be in the air in the day time. the mosquito night fighter varant had 4 303s thats no match to the 61's and the mosquito was made of wood. both aircraft did about 440mph. me 110 was classified a aircraft destroyer and no match for any real single seat fighter just like the p38.
I have a letter from my dad where he mentions "going for the record" right after we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima...I guess he never got the chance. German Messershmidts were one hell of an airplane, but when the US came up with the Mustang, they had finally met their match. Check out the stats on that one, Mustang was faster and shot down more fighters than any other airplane in the war during the time they fought I believe.
Like all fighters, every model had an achilles heel. Lets not forget that the spitfire and mosquito could hold there own,, It wasn't one sided,, and the fact the mosquito was plywood construction and a twin engine fighter/bomber the germans were never able to come up with its counterpart. They did make attempts but it never really make much of an effect on the outcome. Lucky for the allies that Hitler micro managed everything in the last years of the war when I think he was suffering the effects of amphetamine use and dementia ,, and his second Goering suffered opiate addiction. Remember kids, Don't do drugs, especially if one day you have the goal to become a dictator that wants to rule the earth - Or a global industrial magnate and financier ,,, Well same thing really as the world is coming to realize.
where did you get that idea? the me 110 was a great aircraft, the he 115 was far better but still the 110 was a great night fighter the black widow was just a beast, not much could run away from it, and it was very sneaky too, could fly up onderneath the victim and pounce with those 50's and the 20 mm cannons,
@AmberMo2011 Your grandfather is my hero he belong to the best generation this country have. they were brave young Man who gave it all to protect our nation from evil. thanks for the information about your granfather his name should be in every military book outthere.
My Uncle, Robert Dye, was in Burma also, and was an Intel officer for one of the P-61 outfits, he thought the aircraft was the best in theater. The Japanese had nothing even close to the speed and firepower of this aircraft.
i guess you would know..................i still would have the He 115, yes i know it was a float aitcraft, but it was in my opinion better armed , ? maybe..its probably twice the weight og the me 110, dont get me wrong i love that aircraft as much as the other, i also liked the Kondor, and the Do224, what a beauty
Bf110?!?! Puh-leeze. Was a total failure at what it was designed to do (daytime heavy fighter) and found success filling in in other roles. P-61 was designed from the outset to be a night-fighter and it was highly successful in that role.
The K is not much more relevant to the airwar in Europe than the H. Quoted K speeds are theorethical and reached at SondernotLeistung and MW injection, with propeller 9-12199 (which was never standardized, 9-12159 was typically used). The engine at Kampfleistung setting, only produced around 1285hp, which meant that 109 performance at continuos settings were much lower. I have no figure for K, but G typically 40 kmph less. The quoted P-51D speed was NOT achieved with WEP, but 'military'.
Jimi: Had a long story to share with you but must have hit the wrong button, and it all went away. I'm also retired AF, navigator on the KC.(SEA era, etc) Before I hit the wrong button again...God Bless and thank you for your service. Dan
My dad, William R. Helm, flew a P-61 in the Burma Theatre. One of his comments was he liked to fly the ones without the remote-controlled turret because it slowed him down, and he had plenty of firepower (it was built by General Electric as I recall). I still have his flight jacket, the coolest patch I have ever seen.. Black Widow with a Black crescent moon on tan leather round patch. Also, inside the jacket, Chinese that explained "we are here to fight the Japanese" as we were allies w/China
Wow! What a story! Any chance you could send me a pic of this patch??? ralphsoccer@bellsouth.net.
Widow pilots NEVER got the respect they deserved being night fighters.
Sheeesh! That pre-flight was killer! That Piper Cherokee I use to fly didn't have one fouth the check list to go through...lol I'm amazed that these pilots weren't overwhelmed flying these beautiful birds let alone combating the enemy. And,to the poster,this video is just some awesome stuff!! Thank You for posting it.
My Grandpa flew this night fighter in the pacific. Only the best of the best we're chosen to fly the P-61.
I have been around 70yrs, flew in radial engine planes, one thing we were taught early on "DO NOT WALK THROUGH THE ARC OF A PROP!" I wish they had gotten that right. Other wise it was great video thanks a lot.
My Dad flew the P-61 out of California, I think he said Hammer Field. Training was during nights over the Pacific. Targets were Japanese subs surfacing near shore. He always said easy to fly and powerful engines, with radar making finding targets easy.
My dad said he'd see guys just take off going almost straight up in these things. I built a model of one as a kid. Dad was an engine mechanic on B-24's and then B-29's. His team was given some engine speed change title I guess. Didn't surprise me trying to work with him as an insulator. lol. I've never seen a more efficient individual in his work.
Amazing in that this was obviously the era in Army Air Corp and/or USAF flying before crew/cockpit checklists were used 100% of the time...with mandatory crew checklist procedures being taught, used and checked against by instructors/evaluators. In my 31 years flying with USAF, never once did I NOT use a checklist....even for the most routine/rote phases and tasks. Not surprisingly back then, crew induced errors, accidents, mishaps and crashes were quite common.
Dad had much respect for the "Mossie" as you call it, and British troops in general. He also had respect for the Japanese troups (especially on the ground), and he grew up with Japanese kids on the farm in Kennewick, Washington. Anyway, I built that model too many times (Mossie) and it was cool. I know dad was really into speed, that's why he liked the P-61 without the GE Remote-Controlled Machine Gun/Cannon on the roof...I don't think the Mossie was as advanced, but fast as hell...
That was the first time I was able to see descent footage of a P-61 cockpit. Cool.
I think everyone has their personal favorite airplane. im retired airforce KC-135 but if ever I coulda been on a P-61 I woulda! hoped for a ride on a P-61! I dream someday to see one!
i never knew you had to be such a wizard to fly, all the switches , and levers, damn
My Grandfather, Conrad Harley designed the gun systems on this beauty.
That's awesome. Those things had a lot of firepower.
Did the gunner control all the guns? The 0.50s and the 20 mms?
Hell yea, that's really cool. I bet he had stories!
@Jack Tangles ok boomer
Grunt to pilot: i see you are reading grapes of wrath.
Pilot to Grunt: nope, that's my check list.
The last P-61 I heard of was in China in the 1980's sometime, selling for $1 million. Don't know if it's still there.
They started out with a top turret with the guns, but that was removed and the opening faired over after they were discovered to not be worth the trouble.
As a kid I built a 1946 balsa model kit, boy did they get the details wrong! That kit would be worth huge money nowadays.
Cleveland Models still has plans IIRC.
My hat's off to those who served bravely in WWII. We can't forget their service!
A P61 was used when they rescued prisoners in a Japanese POW camp. The rangers needed a distraction while they were sneaking up on the camp in the daylight. The Army brass sent in a P61 to overfly the camp. The guards freaked out and were too busy watching the plane to see the rangers. The POW's were freaked too. They'd been locked up in 1941-42 and did not know that the US had such planes. The raid was successful and many were rescued.
Not all the P-61s had thedorsal .50 cal turrent, about half did not due to tail buffeting problems. They used to train P-61 crews at Hammer Field, no the Fresno/Yosemite Intenation Airport at Fresno CA. My Dad, while not aircrew, was there for a bit in WWII
I have some cool pics of him in Burma, I guess the plane was so advanced it was classified for a long time. Also, I believe it was the only WWII plane used in Korea. First with radar too. This was the most advanced plane of its time. Dad was a star quarterback in High School, and was quite an intelligent guy to boot. He wanted to be a test pilot, but mom talked him out of it as it was dangerous as hell. They don't make them like that anymore; I am just an echo of my dad as far as that goes.
Don't forget the right and left balance static defibrelator gage...the conduit counter backflush metering port position.
I built a model of this about 25 some years ago, and it is a pretty bad-ass aircraft.
I built two of these & have both today (built in the 50s). Now 71 years old. Cool Plane!
@AmberMo2011 "An obituary notice comes with every bite" sums up the Black Widow all too well. This aircraft was as fast as many single engine fighters in service at the time, was maneuverable as a fighter needed to be, was armed like a flying flak battery, was designed from the ground up to carry airborne intercept radar, had no vices in handling. I've studied military aviation for over 40 years: anyone who calls the P-61 Black Widow a "piece of crap" hasn't got a freakin' clue.
@AllSingingAllDancing That's why pilots get the nice, big checklists. It makes sure they don't forget (and gives the shorter ones something to sit on so they can see out of the windows).
@MasonZstudios There aren't *any* flying today, though there is a long-term project to restore one to flying status. Only four P-61s are known to have survived at all. Compared to other World War II fighters, which were often built in the thousands or tens of thousands, relatively few P-61s were built (around 700), and they were only in service for a few years before being replaced by jets, so this is to be expected.
The P-61 is a huge plane for a fighter, but it’s one hell of a fighter!
Wonderful upload! Now I know how to fly mine!
Kidding, very informative. Sure hope the instructions for the gunner were less cumbersome :)
still my favorite bird of all time.
It's a very cool plane but I've always had love for the P-47 Thunderbolt. That plane is like a pit bull.
I know this comment is ten years old... did you survive?
Nice video! I'm surprised at how complex the engines were, I didn't know you could adjust the superchargers.
I also have a letter from dad to grandpa, talking about the A-Bomb and he was "...going to go for the record..." as far as I know, they "lost" his records, and when he was on his way home, the plane crashed on takeoff. He said only he and the pilot lived, he woke up on the tarmac with landing gear 12" from his head. One of his buddies was rolled up into a gooey ball, and one guy was as flat as he had ever seen anyone. I know that after all that combat, this helped kill him young--at 56 years.
I heart this plane. Thanks, old video, for teaching me about this plane.
A similar plane was my favorite to fly on the old Aces Over the Pacific computer game
Wow. .50 cal x 4 and 20mm x 4 is a shitload of firepower. Those things could chew up just about anything they came across.
The bf-109 had more power in the later models, 30 cal in the nose, and 2 20 mills with 2 more available on gondolas.
@@Spittin_Bars 30 cal has more fire power than a 50? I think not.
He 115? You probably mean the He 219. Which also never lived up to it's intended specifications, although it was better than the 110 as a nightfighter. Saying that: the 110 was quite effective as a nightfighter. Heaviest losses to nightfighter squadrons equipped with 110s occured when they were pressed into action against daylight bombing raids, where they suffered horribly.
As I said, I'm not sure what you think the argument is. The P-51H is still faster than the K4 and the Ta 152.
But there is doubts about that the K4, in practise, was faster than the P-51D. The figure is theoretical, as I've said, and it also requires the cooler to be closed. To reach a top level speed at optimum altitude, you have to accelerate for a long time. Disregarding possible compressibilty drag, K4 has to do that on MW boost and then also close its cooler. It cannot do that for long.
Don't know what you're thinking of with the He 115, that was a very early war floatplane, about 150 mph slower than the Bf 110. Me 210 and 410 maybe? They were developments of the Bf 110, but neither ever replaced it. Bf 110 made a very good night fighter, but that's not what it was designed for, it was only after sustaining heavy losses during the Battle of Britain that it was redeployed as a night fighter. German command actually pulled entire units of Bf110s off the line during BoB.
@Ripley44mag Excuse me, but my grandfather was a lieutenant P-61 night fighter in WWII. He could've been a captain, but refused. He also played a part in inventing the night vision goggles. This "piece of crap" and my grandpa helped win the war. So I'd appreciate you not saying that this wonderful airplane is anything less than amazing. Thanks.
The Mossie Night Fighter had 4-20mm cannon in the nose. I have pics of my dad standing under the nose of one, so there is no question on this point. The fighter version had the cannon and the 4-.303's with a bomb bay too. Also, wood construction was not a bad thing, except maybe in the tropics. If a German pilot shot one down, he was awarded 2 kills instead of 1. I think a contest between the Mosquito and the P-61 would be a close one, with the Mossie as the more manuverable of the two.
It's amazing we made it to the jet age.
I always thought the Black Widow was a dead lethal and sexy plane. Fast and heavily armed.
Brother, this thing would blast the '110 out of the skies ANY day.
quite a preflight checklist.
The reasons you see different figures for K4, is that it's vulnerable to Luftwaffe fanboy'ism. + that different K4s had different engines and fuels. + that figures for K4 are entirely theoretical, never measured. Those calcs also stipulate perfect build, a closed cooler, and carry the note that compressibility effects have not been taken into account. Messerschmitt were good at estimating 109 speeds. So from that angle it's credible. Compressibility effects, however, likely makes it invalid.
no i meant the 115, it was mostly used as a airboat.bomber
It would be interesting to see a comparison between the P-61 and the P-38.
@Big Bill O'Reilly - My, aren't we negative.
I'm trying to see it from your point of view. Perhaps you're a P-61 enthusiast, and would not like to see the P-38 come out on top in the numbers game.
@Big Bill O'Reilly - - I have arthritis, and losing hair on the back of my scalp. I've gained 20 pounds during this
China virus pandemic shut down, and the gun I ordered at the gun shop was defective and had to be returned.
I'm not experienced at researching stats on airplanes, and would appreciate to see what the characteristics
are in comparison. It may be that somebody has already done that. It would be a lot of work.
You seem frustrated that I don't know this stuff, and so does that mean you are an expert on these
matters? If so, don't be such a grumpbag. I'm not an expert, and so I would like to see comparisons.
I have read most of the comments under this video, and they don't seem to agree with each other very much.
In fact, many seem to be uptight, like you. You might know what the ceiling is for each aircraft, or which
aircraft handles better in a dive, and what the cruising speed of each aircraft is. I'd like to know the
difference in armament between the aircraft. Some of the comments listed these things, but it would be easier
for comparison if they were laid out in an easier and convenient format. And it would be interesting to know
what engines they had, and something about the propellers... like how many blades, and how long they were.
It would be of interest to compare the superchargers, and why they didn't use turbochargers.
It would also be interesting to know if there were any pilots who had the opportunity to fly both planes,
and to read their opinions. Also, it would be interesting to see the weight of each plane's bomb loads,
and the weight of the planes, in comparison. Plus, it would be of interest to read how many enemy aircraft
each plane shot down. Ultimately, since these aircraft were designed for different missions, it may be that
investing in the P-61 was a mistake, and it would have been better to make design changes to the P-38 to
fly at night.
@Big Bill O'Reilly - You should experiment with cordiality and avoid expressing your anger in the comments. If you disagree with someone, it would be better if you didn't get emotional.
@Big Bill O'Reilly - We haven't met. We've merely exchanged comments. I wouldn't want to meet you. You don't seem to be a well adjusted individual. Instead of asking me what's wrong with me...you should find the source of your mean temper.
@@mu99ins I did lot's of comparisons on these two. The P-61 could not turn or dive like the 38. Nor could it climb as fast. Both were made for different missions, hope this helps,,,,,,, cheers!
@1138thz They found that the movement of the turret in flight produced severe buffeting.
Actually, the P-51 was the fastest thing in the sky, for practical purposes, if you don't count, like rare Me-262. During '44, when Luftwaffe west was destroyed, allied fighters had a 35-60 Mph advantage over the various 109 and 190 versions fielded against them.
It didn't fly in Europe, but the fastest P-51H did 487 Mph. This H was considerably modified. There was actually little point in that. If there had been military need, same engine fitted to the D would have given close performance.
What are the operational differences between a P-61 an an A-26? I know the P-61 was a night fighter and the A-26 was a medium bomber, but other differences were there?
Hey, saying that a night fighter had a "negligible effect on the war" sounds pretty naive to me...My father (not grandpa) flew a P-61 in the Burma theater, and he did a lot more than shoot down enemy planes...He shot the shit out of a lot of stuff on the ground too, including trains, troop carriers, trucks, etc. First plane to have radar on-board helped a lot too. Germany and Japan had their problems with production for sure, but discounting everyone else's efforts smells of bad shit to me pal
My statement was wrong, however, about K's max speed without MW. It should be without some kind of 'notleistung'. The K can run with notleistung settings at altitude without MW. Performance is lower ofc, but not so low as on 'kampfleistung' settings, which are in the region of P-51's max cruise for G. No figure for K.
I'm not sure what you think the argument is here, but the K4 was first delivered only very late '44, and only in small numbers. By this hour, the air battle in the west was won. And compressibility does not affect _WINGS_ until higher speeds, but it may well increase drag from small, local obstacles to airstream.
@stingray666 No doubt about it. That was a time of promoted drinking & it was a rare pilot who didn't. Still, quite the number of different details the pilot had to bang through on his hungover/drunk checklist, knowing which were more important than others. One of my favorite airplanes, a most impressive piece of aircraft.
@1138thz i believe i read somewhere that the turret screwed with the aerodynamics too much.
Not to go more OT, but: The 110 was far from being a failure in the BoB.Higher losses started, when they were ordered not to go free hunting in advance of the bombers but to stay close to them. Losses in 109s also rose dramatically then.
In fact the 110 had a better loss to kill ration then the 109.
In C.Bergstroms Book "Battle of Britain"
Bf-109 squadrons achieved 815 kills to ~534 losses= kill ratio 1,52 zu 1
Bf-110 squadrons achieved 407 kills to ~196 losses= kill ratio 2,07 zu 1
Loss/Kill:
You'd think he'd fly straight into a mountain cause hes checking dials and switches all the time.
is there any reason temperature gauges were calibrated in Celsius (Centigrade) for an American plane, seeing as everything else were still in Imperial units
Yes. This is correct, as I can see.
'Kampfleistung' is without MW, as MW could only be used for 10min. ('Steigkampfleistung' and 'Sondernotleistung' is with). Though I have to say pilots prob on occasion extended beyond that, since they had MW supply for much more. At this late time engine life was not important on the western front. Survival was.
My point about the K's relevance, was that in late '44 and '45, going up when american fighters were around, was suicidal and didn't happen much.
how strange, Maybe I assumed incorrectly but I thought for a twin engine aircraft of this type it would have counter rotation props ? One prop rotates CW while the other rotates CCW ? I see near the end of this video when shutting down the engines the props slow and come to rest both spinning in the CCW rotation.
My uncle was a radar operator on one of these.
Thanks for the upload, its my favorite ww2 ac
Surprised they filmed such a heavily-used example of the aircraft. Lots of wear on the cockpit controls.
Didn't Howard Hugh's have one of these for personal use just after the war?
Mosquito didn't have radar (a first for an airplane on the P-61), so I'm not so sure you wouldn't want that when you were fighting at night...Also, dad flew the P-61 without the remote-controlled GE machine gun, and said it made the plane faster and that was very important. As far as the guns on a Mossie vs. Black Widow, no comparison (check out Black Widow's vs. Mossie, even without the RC Machine Gun Turret on the roof).
We used a variation of the Mosquitoes 20mms, the DAD used radar before us, also developed by them first. The mosquitos had 4 .30 cal mgs. The P61 w/o top turret only had it's 4 cannon. Still enough firepower. The Widow' s top turret was an problem for the pilot unless locked strait forward. The B model was lighter, faster and more maneuverable with guns removed. Military Aviation Historian and author.
My dad taught radar in the Seattle area during most of WWII. But, in 1945, they sent him on an aircraft carrier to the Philippines, which he did not like at all. One of the few stories he told me was a low ranking officer ordered him to remove the radar from all the planes on the carrier. He replied to the officer, "Yes, Sir." I don't remember exactly
what the wording was, maybe it's different in the Navy.....something like "Aye-aye Sir."? This was a lesson from my dad to me. The lesson being, in the military, if you decide
not to follow orders, you do it by saying "Yes, sir." instead of "No, sir." A lesson I used much later in the army. So, the next day, the officer came down in a hurry to ask my
dad if he took out the radars, and my dad said, no. The officer was greatly relieved. That was one of those bone-head orders you cannot follow.
A new Preston Vaughn I Thank he was a radar operator on this type we worked together at Q S petroleum ( Trust) in the 70s
@dianebailot The name "Black Widow" was official, not given by pilots because of any negative flight characteristics.
Interesting film....I was particularly curious about the engine-out procedure: radically different from what we did in the DC-3s where it was immediately jam full throttle, full mix and full rpm pitch control on BOTH donkeys while "raising the dead", trimming out and once the bird is stable, THEN checking for things and feathering the dead fan. Interesting.
Wow, that pre-takeoff checklist is long!
@AmberMo2011
The versions with the 4 x .50 cal turrets had lead angle sensors like an analog version of an M1A1 tank's fire control system (minus the range finder). I understand they good at off nose angle targets. Anyone know why these turrets were deleted in later models?
As a side note, the P-61's radar was a British design, not the most advanced however, they kept that one for themselves.
Not that fast? So what were the specs on the three (Spitfire, Messershmidt, Mustang) anyway? I guess I am a naive person when it comes to such specs; enlighten me please.
Was there a way to get that airplane in the sky fast enough?
I was surprised that the oil temperature was quoted in centigrade not Fahrenheit.
@Greenhornet270 Where was he stationed in WWII?
How did they find time for combat?
the p61 was with out a doubt the best night fighter of the war. 4 20mm and 4 40cals would send you to the pearly gate very fast. this was a night fighter and would not be in the air in the day time. the mosquito night fighter varant had 4 303s thats no match to the 61's and the mosquito was made of wood. both aircraft did about 440mph. me 110 was classified a aircraft destroyer and no match for any real single seat fighter just like the p38.
Didnt the p-61 have a habit of having its rear plastic cone imploding everytime the synch fired all 8 of its heavy guns ?
I have a letter from my dad where he mentions "going for the record" right after we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima...I guess he never got the chance. German Messershmidts were one hell of an airplane, but when the US came up with the Mustang, they had finally met their match. Check out the stats on that one, Mustang was faster and shot down more fighters than any other airplane in the war during the time they fought I believe.
Like all fighters, every model had an achilles heel. Lets not forget that the spitfire and mosquito could hold there own,, It wasn't one sided,, and the fact the mosquito was plywood construction and a twin engine fighter/bomber the germans were never able to come up with its counterpart.
They did make attempts but it never really make much of an effect on the outcome. Lucky for the allies that Hitler micro managed everything in the last years of the war when I think he was suffering the effects of amphetamine use and dementia ,, and his second Goering suffered opiate addiction.
Remember kids, Don't do drugs, especially if one day you have the goal to become a dictator that wants to rule the earth - Or a global industrial magnate and financier ,,, Well same thing really as the world is coming to realize.
where did you get that idea? the me 110 was a great aircraft, the he 115 was far better but still the 110 was a great night fighter
the black widow was just a beast, not much could run away from it, and it was very sneaky too, could fly up onderneath the victim and pounce with those 50's and the 20 mm cannons,
@AmberMo2011 Your grandfather is my hero he belong to the best generation this country have. they were brave young Man who gave it all to protect our nation from evil. thanks for the information about your granfather his name should be in every military book outthere.
A late arrival built to just love the night shift. With four 50's and four 20 mills, this had to be very nasty surprise for the sons of Nippon...
Same video my dad saw and wanted to be on one.
I watched the video, am I checked out on this bad boy, or what? LOL
At least it takes about 45 minutes to take off. By then the mission is over.
Here's hoping that the Mid-Atlantic Air Museum manages to get theirs flying!
They used Corsairs and Marauders in Korea too.
Kids back then got to fly fighter planes. Today all we get to fly is video game consoles. Sucks ballsack, and I think we got gipped.
My Uncle, Robert Dye, was in Burma also, and was an Intel officer for one of the P-61 outfits, he thought the aircraft was the best in theater. The Japanese had nothing even close to the speed and firepower of this aircraft.
i guess you would know..................i still would have the He 115, yes i know it was a float aitcraft, but it was in my opinion better armed , ? maybe..its probably twice the weight og the me 110, dont get me wrong i love that aircraft as much as the other, i also liked the Kondor, and the Do224, what a beauty
Does anyone recognize the pilot in this film?
Kinda rare seeing anything behind a radial not covered in oil, especially if theyre being worked. Funny the pilot flies like Fred McMurry lol
@panhead1219 Your Pinto didn't have a pair of engines that could drive it through the air at over 350 mph... >;D
15:31 Who else sees the creepy face?
Good show!
Ah.......can I hire someone to do all this before I get in?
Bf110?!?! Puh-leeze. Was a total failure at what it was designed to do (daytime heavy fighter) and found success filling in in other roles. P-61 was designed from the outset to be a night-fighter and it was highly successful in that role.
Seems pretty simple
@chitlika Yeah, because that 'skeeter couldn't up as long iirc. 8^)
Yeah, that too.
The K is not much more relevant to the airwar in Europe than the H. Quoted K speeds are theorethical and reached at SondernotLeistung and MW injection, with propeller 9-12199 (which was never standardized, 9-12159 was typically used). The engine at Kampfleistung setting, only produced around 1285hp, which meant that 109 performance at continuos settings were much lower. I have no figure for K, but G typically 40 kmph less. The quoted P-51D speed was NOT achieved with WEP, but 'military'.
IT IS THE RIGHT MOMENT TO SAVE SPAIN. DEFENSE MARGARET 2020
the instructor guy looks like elvis.