this is brilliant! the concept of the basic version is somehow both obvious and a revelation. I absolutely love how you incorporate practical applications of how concepts can be used as compositional techniques. in the tonal voice leading series as well. its always great to hear the theory but to then also see how all of this works in actual application.
"...both obvious and a revelation." I completely agree. I kept thinking to myself as I worked through Taneev, "How did no one write about this before 1909?!"
For those interested, Dr. Gran's article on Music Theory Online discusses this same topic (DOI: 10.30535/mto.30.2.4). It was a complete accident and surprise -- I was reading over MTO and audibly gasped when I saw your name! Thank you for all your work promoting counterpoint and contrapuntal music education!
The idea of making a draft page with the 'basic version' (i.e. most elaborate version) of a contrapuntal combination was a huge revelation for me when I first read Taneyev. The complete combination is a sort of magic trick where the composer says "look at these themes, well guess what? They also work in combination and against themselves etc.". It's easy to see this and think the composer was some sort of wizard, but in reality, they knew fully well the musical effect in advance, thanks to writing out the most elaborate combination first. Taneyev took this approach to its limits in writing out many canons and fugues as 'precompositional' material to explore all the combinatorial possibilities of his themes and motifs before applying some of them to one of his larger, 'real' compositions. I say 'some', because composers' materials often had combinatorial possibilities they didn't end up using, which Taneyev shows with examples from Palestrina (I don't have an example to hand, but I think he does mention it in Convertible Counterpoint). Once again, great work with the video series, Dr. Gran! Since I've been immersed in Taneyevian canonic writing for the last year, this video was a good refresher for his preliminary horizontal material (the approach does change to an extent when one is solely focussed on shifting counterpoint with a single canonic subject).
I've never messed with strettos before, as it seemed so daunting, but this make them not only way easier to make but a lot of fun too. This is way more advanced than what we usually learn in university. Thank you!
Excellent video as always Jacob. It's quite interesting to note that the compositional technique of imaginary voices and basic version is agnostic with respect to the contrapuntal style used. Style in this case meaning a collection of rules or customs that define said style. That is, this technique can certainly be used to write double shifting counterpoint in the style of Palestrina or Fux. But it can also be used to write counterpoint which incorporates other "free composition" voice leading idioms (such as the ones you describe in the schenkerian analysis playlist), or serialist counterpoint, or in general any other kind of contrapuntal style.
That is a great point! Taneev explores this in the book. He focuses mainly on the strict style, but frequently shows examples from Bach, late Beethoven, and some of his Russian contemporaries.
@@JacobGran I'll definitely look into his books in the future! This series is a great dive into this (for me at least) unknown but very useful topic. Even beyond composing canons, it's interesting to ponder how basic versions and double shifts could be used to "pre-compose" musical content in advance... Such as themes which are metrically shifted, or tonally reinterpreted in different scale degrees or scales, etc.
Epic, love this. Feels like this could be very useful in serialist works. Is there any framework people have developed to write counterpoint where one voice is a 'compressed' (i.e. has a different meter) imitation of another?
At the end of Paul Grove's translation of Taneyev's Doctrine of Canon (which you can find on the University of Arizona repository website), there are also translated excerpts of other Russian theoretical writings on counterpoint, such as Koptyman’s work on multi-voice canon (i.e. 4 voices and more), and (pertinent to your point) Korchinsky’s melodic theory of canon, which explores augmentation, diminution, and other transformations Taneyev didn’t explore. Hugo Norden also explores these and other canonic forms in his Technique of Canon (which you can find on Google Books). He is directly Taneyev-influenced in his method. Though they both use mathematics, Norden’s work is arguably more accessible than the Korchinsky; for one thing, Norden’s book is available in full, whereas the other Russian theorists have only had excerpts translated into English (though there may be some Russian PDFs out there). I myself haven't yet explored this further reading material in depth, but it appears to address the kind of thing you're asking about in principle.
just a QOL observation, but the voice over in this video is extremely quiet relative to the other videos in the series-having to crank my volume up very high just to hear you.
this is brilliant! the concept of the basic version is somehow both obvious and a revelation. I absolutely love how you incorporate practical applications of how concepts can be used as compositional techniques. in the tonal voice leading series as well. its always great to hear the theory but to then also see how all of this works in actual application.
"...both obvious and a revelation." I completely agree. I kept thinking to myself as I worked through Taneev, "How did no one write about this before 1909?!"
This might be my favorite video of yours. I've been studying fugue for a few months and this is a godsend.
Glad it was helpful!
This way of doing it is SO much easier to understand and put into practice than all the numbers ... wonderful explanation!!!
Holy moly, these three videos have been absolute gold! Thanks for making such clear explanations these topics. :D
Este es mi nuevo canal favorito. Gracias, Dios lo bendiga maestro Jacob.
For those interested, Dr. Gran's article on Music Theory Online discusses this same topic (DOI: 10.30535/mto.30.2.4). It was a complete accident and surprise -- I was reading over MTO and audibly gasped when I saw your name! Thank you for all your work promoting counterpoint and contrapuntal music education!
The idea of making a draft page with the 'basic version' (i.e. most elaborate version) of a contrapuntal combination was a huge revelation for me when I first read Taneyev. The complete combination is a sort of magic trick where the composer says "look at these themes, well guess what? They also work in combination and against themselves etc.".
It's easy to see this and think the composer was some sort of wizard, but in reality, they knew fully well the musical effect in advance, thanks to writing out the most elaborate combination first. Taneyev took this approach to its limits in writing out many canons and fugues as 'precompositional' material to explore all the combinatorial possibilities of his themes and motifs before applying some of them to one of his larger, 'real' compositions.
I say 'some', because composers' materials often had combinatorial possibilities they didn't end up using, which Taneyev shows with examples from Palestrina (I don't have an example to hand, but I think he does mention it in Convertible Counterpoint).
Once again, great work with the video series, Dr. Gran! Since I've been immersed in Taneyevian canonic writing for the last year, this video was a good refresher for his preliminary horizontal material (the approach does change to an extent when one is solely focussed on shifting counterpoint with a single canonic subject).
Brothers rejoice ! More based taneyev content !
I've never messed with strettos before, as it seemed so daunting, but this make them not only way easier to make but a lot of fun too. This is way more advanced than what we usually learn in university. Thank you!
Excellent video as always Jacob. It's quite interesting to note that the compositional technique of imaginary voices and basic version is agnostic with respect to the contrapuntal style used. Style in this case meaning a collection of rules or customs that define said style. That is, this technique can certainly be used to write double shifting counterpoint in the style of Palestrina or Fux. But it can also be used to write counterpoint which incorporates other "free composition" voice leading idioms (such as the ones you describe in the schenkerian analysis playlist), or serialist counterpoint, or in general any other kind of contrapuntal style.
That is a great point! Taneev explores this in the book. He focuses mainly on the strict style, but frequently shows examples from Bach, late Beethoven, and some of his Russian contemporaries.
@@JacobGran I'll definitely look into his books in the future! This series is a great dive into this (for me at least) unknown but very useful topic.
Even beyond composing canons, it's interesting to ponder how basic versions and double shifts could be used to "pre-compose" musical content in advance... Such as themes which are metrically shifted, or tonally reinterpreted in different scale degrees or scales, etc.
Epic, love this. Feels like this could be very useful in serialist works.
Is there any framework people have developed to write counterpoint where one voice is a 'compressed' (i.e. has a different meter) imitation of another?
At the end of Paul Grove's translation of Taneyev's Doctrine of Canon (which you can find on the University of Arizona repository website), there are also translated excerpts of other Russian theoretical writings on counterpoint, such as Koptyman’s work on multi-voice canon (i.e. 4 voices and more), and (pertinent to your point) Korchinsky’s melodic theory of canon, which explores augmentation, diminution, and other transformations Taneyev didn’t explore.
Hugo Norden also explores these and other canonic forms in his Technique of Canon (which you can find on Google Books). He is directly Taneyev-influenced in his method.
Though they both use mathematics, Norden’s work is arguably more accessible than the Korchinsky; for one thing, Norden’s book is available in full, whereas the other Russian theorists have only had excerpts translated into English (though there may be some Russian PDFs out there).
I myself haven't yet explored this further reading material in depth, but it appears to address the kind of thing you're asking about in principle.
thank you dr gran 🎵
The tricky part is not writing a theme that will stretto impressively, but writing music that builds to the stretto and does it justice.
I hear that Ronnie Radke also had imaginary voices, but I don't think it was the same kind of thing.
Beautiful
18:24 Reicha also used this method
Thank you!
Excellent video. Thank you. Is the playback MIDI? If so, may I ask what sample pack you used? It sounds incredibly realistic.
Yes, believe it or not those are the woodwinds from Muse Sounds
@@JacobGran Wow!
just a QOL observation, but the voice over in this video is extremely quiet relative to the other videos in the series-having to crank my volume up very high just to hear you.