Lol Kagero's new support did literally nothing for the deck and Waterfall is carrying the deck, it won't get hit, it's only thing the clan has going for them and they won't even get any support for almost a year. In eng maybe like in June-July earliest if they get support after Bermuda.
No cards need to be hit in Standard format, even though OTT is a major threat. New cards and new set will fix it. However your opinion on Premium cards to hit is interesting.
I think hit the stuff that will make OTT less broken (even though I am trying to build an OTT deck) and then as new support comes about for other decks and decks advance, slowly remove the limiting if it makes sense. Tournaments are not fun when you know you feel you will auto lose if you see a deck. In my shop, OTT isn't the biggest threat, but everywhere else, I guess it is.
Building on OTT's problem. 100% agree with you on that. I know I'm OTT loyal, but seeing how it's topping every tournament I feel like me playing it at a tournament will put a target on my back. Even though i don't play OTTGyze or imperial daughter.That said, i can see why Gyze in general should be banned he doesn't give any design space and players won't care about messing up. With Ichitom, I think I've said this before, but I'm going to say it again. Bushiroad should put a restriction for both. Either you can play one or the other. or better yet, two of each. So that your opponent can have a chance of defending themselves and enjoying the game. They gotta do something about OTT before we have another Gear Chronicle situation. Every thing else I agree with, I just wanted to put my two scents in on the OTT problem.
Brave Solemn to address a topic such as a banlist! :D My thoughts on bans in general: I don't like banning cards, that can be used 4x, down to zero. It kinda feels like the card has become equal to trash and if you pull it from a booster pack it sucks. That is why I am more of a fan to decrease cards to 1. My thoughts on standard: I didn't see the overwhelming power coming with OTT. Hitting the Deer to 1 and Imperial Daughter to 1 is something I can agree with to hit consistency and promote counterplay for other clans versus OTT. My thoughts on Premium: Gyze: I don't know what to think of Gyze since I only see lots of matches vs Gyze. By looking at the competitive scene I think it should be banned from certain clans like OTT or Angel Feather. Enigmatic Assassin: I have played the Blade Wing deck so I am well aware of the power of the Assassin. Decreasing it to 1 or maybe even 2 could be a good solution if this deck is/becomes too much of a degenerate. Bermuda Triangle: My very first clan and I can only agree that Ange, Lucille and Elly G-guard are extremely powerful. I think the problem lies in Ange that it has on place as well. Removing this option might be fine. Next reducing Lucille to 1 or 2 is also a good option. The same goes for Elly G-guard. Reducing it to 1 or 2 is fine. The reason I don't like to remove any of these cards from the game completely is because the bans should help to reduce the power/consistency on certain deck builds and should not result in the destruction of the a whole clans or subclan (RIP Seven seas cards still banned). PS What cards do you think should be unbanned/removed form the restriction list?
2 still allows them to get 4 vanguard attacks at 40k+ power and crit (3 with double crit), and 10 rearguard attacks (8 at 20k power). That's still ridiculous. They also go +8 to hand, 4 of which are Protects.
@@a.velderrain8849 so if i damage my one or never see it. Then what do i do. Play non darkness DI deck. Just seems unfair to hurt the deck that badly idk... time will tell.
Good and valid point mate... I actually agree with everything you said in the video. Being a bermuda player myself in the premium format of the game i see your point regarding the cards you mentioned🤔 though i play chouchou😸 the only other deck i play is genesis in standard.
I agree with Gyze, Enigmatic Assassin should not be useable in the same deck as No Life King. Everything else I disagree on. The issues in standard aren't that bad and will be fixed with future sets. Bermuda is fine.
Edgy McEdgeface it’s not that bad but the simple fact that when you have 1 clan/deck that’s topping all decks and even in new decks to come and it’s the only tier1 with no other decks even coming close. Sorry but OTT needs to be checks in some form or fashion.
I'm happy to see such a mix of comments, with the ones that in general agree with the opinions of this video. I really quite frankly do not understand the people who fervently support OTT. At literally every single tournament in the English and Japanese meta since *release* OTT has topped with the top 6+ decks *always* being OTT, with the occasional exception of something like Spikes (totally not statistically significant). The main defenses I see are "Oh, new cards will come out that will top OTT, just you wait and see!" Do you not understand that this is what caused us to have to reboot the entire game, what almost killed it(Barring the fact that now four trial decks and nearly four boosters have come out)? It is not healthy for the game to have such rapid power creep just to beat a single topping clan. Do you know what happens if they power creep enough to beat such a dominiating series of cards? Then those new cards single-handedly top. The healthiest and best option for the game, for the meta, is to limit some of these insane cards OTT decks always use. We want slow, deliberate, calculated power creep that enables us to have about a year between power creep cycles so that almost all decks and cards enjoy equal and fun access to the meta against other decks during that year. You do not want what happened in G to the point where the only way to beat the consistently topping 1 or 2 decks for months was to power creep a set of cards to an even more insane level, which inevitably would become the next topping deck for months. The worst part is it seems that the people who all over the Vanguard community defend standard for its "balance" consistently blame G as the one that for its entirety was cancer. Even during some of the most cancerous times of G, i.e Gear Chronicle domination of meta did not have such a one-sided topping of one single clan in tournaments. The cognitive dissonance and ignoring of data is truly staggering to me. Standard has one of the worst balance issues in the history of Vanguard, and power-creeping new sets to fix this is what got us here in the first place. Feel free to debate me on this civilly if it so pertains to you.
Now that the standard support for Bermuda Triangle is coming out in may, and the trial deck in April, I’ve tested some of the new support, and I honestly have to say that I’ve witnessed the bending over of Gyze, mainly due to the fact that Liselotte can make some serious early game rushes, and also that 2 sonatas + can almost constantly over 30k power. Ange + Liselotte can give massive hand sizes, 10 bare minimum at the end of turn. Megiddo + melody and force markers, frequently hit 28k bare minimum, and every melody card that is sonata, add 5k to that number. Every force marker that is stacked on to one rear guard circle after the first force marker, add 10k to that number. My recommendation: doesn’t really matter what you run, as long as you run 4 Liselotte, 4 Ange, and 4 sonata (with other melody cards of course) you’re fine. And with that being said, Lucille is soon not going to be a problem.
I have play tested pale moon with ott and the way I got more wins than losses is dedicate one or two attacks on your turn to their promise daughters and other rearguards in general depending on the situation this could be applied to other non accelerating clans just limit it to one attack each turn to a rear guard. it denies counter blast, forces them to guard from hand to keep the rg or let it die and replace it from hand so yeah
I'd rather have Luccille be hit to 1 than Elly, funny thing about Luccille is that she works 1000% better in your usual Ange build rather than her own CC build, Lucille to 1 would at the very least dampen the power boost during your battlephase with Alk, not allowing you to boost left and right column 15k before triggers
Don’t hit promise to 1 or 0 mainly because the deck would loose a lot of aggression towards force clans but if our really determined to get it reduced the I think 2 would be the sweet spot and it would mean that players who see he can target her knowing that a large chunk of ott aggression is gone while the player using ott will be more selective as to when to play her
I’m surprised Vanguard hasn’t banned anything yet... Out of the top 4 TCGS world wide (that being Pokemon, Magic, Yugioh, and Vanguard) all of them have banned cards except for Vanguard for some reason....
A game without a banlist means the meta is diverse enough and cards are balanced enough not to consistently win all the time. Laugh all you want but Vanguard has been able to do what all the other big card games failed to do.
angel feather is nit the next in line its murakumo cuz you can just send back left and right arresters continuously and to the combi and with cards like dart spider hidden scroll and the counter charge heal it can do the combo again until you eventually go into gyze
I agree with restricting Deer to one, however rather than reducing Promise Daughter, I would suggest that they change the text of her resist skill, saying that she can't be retired by opponent's card effects OR chosen, meaning that Shadow Paladin players can skill retire other OTT units since the opponent can't choose Promise Daughter when doing the retiring skill. Everything else in Standard is fine tho, can't comment on Premium since I have no experience in that format.
I like your anyalsis on OTT. It would be nice to actually be able to retire w SP vs OTT. I even found that my AqF had trouble beating OTT sometimes. Definately agree w u.
As of recently, I would add any starters that can enable Superior Ride in Premium, particularly The old Kryph. It is crazy that Ezel can essentially Stride on your grade 2 turn if they went first, as well as potential Accel spam via Wonder Ezel. On top of all that, they can either then kill you with Glorius Reign or Ultima if you haven’t recovered. And who can forget the insanity that is Raven Haired that blocks you from guarding with anything other than g1? Perhaps I just had bad experiences with Ezel, but I personally find it annoyingly busted.
Even if you only hit old Kryph, they can still use the less consistent new sup ride. Beaumains needs to be gone and the old stride rule needs to come back.
Agreed on the Stride rule and for Beaumains. I just wasn't sure we had to go so far as to hit the new Beaumains but you do have a point, he singlehandedly makes the sup ride consistent. Also, Soul-Banger senpai has replied!
For my opinion: Standard : Nothing yet cuz the nwe Murakumo and Palemoon can decrease OTT chance to win (Palemoon is very deadly if damage check with no trigger.) Premium : for Gyze, I think just restrict that Gyze cannot used in Protect clan would be enough. for assassin and NLK combo : Assassin + NLK shouldn't be more than 4. It'll be the option for someone who want to use Blade wing combo. I think limiting to 1 is just kick this off the cliff and shoot Spike Brothers and Alfred deck up to meta (At that time, BB and Flogal combo will be the next target. Or maybe Benon) for Ange: I think limiting Ange to 1 maybe enough.
So I actually played against Icchi-Tom a few days ago with a buddy who plays it and knows what he's doing, and i was using my premium Aqua Force build. It was honestly a pretty even game.
My friends really hates me when I swing balaam and baleful/gastille at them. Until now they're still hoping for that combo to be banned. Could that go to?
The ZOA, Antlion and Phantom Black combo is good but not broke. The one thing that keeps it from being the best thing ever is defensive shield creep. With the new V-series shield values, the 99,999 power that antlion attacks with can be easily blocked by a G-Guardian, four 15k triggers and a intercept.
GamingGuysNow that is 5 cards that u need at the exact time that ur opponent uses zoa though so if they 2nd stride it most likely youwont have those 5 cards yet
I think that reducing lucille to 1 in ange or banning elly in ange would be better than banning it altogether. Elly is really broken in ange. However in other decks it just becomes a really good g guard. Personally I think that only in ange decks does elly need any restrictions the rest of the decks like chouchou should not have to take a big hit out of their defense just because ange is too good. I agree with the rest of your banlist though. I would also like to ask about your opinion on accel ultima Ezel and whether it would be viable in the current meta. Big fan of your content. Please continue to make quality videos for your community to enjoy!
Standard seems fine without a ban list for now I think :) I can't speak for Premium but I do like how in Standard it does feel generally pretty balanced even though OTT does seem to be dominating the competitive side somewhat.
I wouldn't bother hitting OTT, because, like you said, it appears to not be an issue after AL4, so seems a bit too late to hit it. I hate the idea of hitting cards just before new support would have fixed the issue anyway. If it becomes a huge problem after they are supported again, then sure, hit them then. I think part of OTT's dominance was also to do with the lower quality of Accel clans during the first few sets. Gold Paladin are looking to be a very solid Accel clan, so itself and Murakumo (who will also get support soon too) should continue to keep OTT from being a huge threat.
As more results are coming out, Muras have actually stopped topping entirely. It's why I alluded to wait and see what AL4 ACTUALLY does when its representation drops. OTT and SP are pretty much the thing to play right now.
My views: Standard is fine, leave it as it is. OTT is strong yes, but will be slowly fixed. Deer 1 seems the most reasonable Waterfall is fine, keep it the same. It literally carriers kagero, so lets not kill that clan. Gyze is tricky, because I've seen loads of intricate and fun versions of gyze, so I feel banning it takes away certain player's chance to make interesting out of nowhere gyze builds. I think it'd be fair to ban it with Angel Feather and OTT. I don't think players would disagree. It would be similar to new Jumping Jill and purple trapeizist. I could see a statement by bushiroad being "we didn't forsee it's power with these two clans, so in order to allow it to still be played (retaining it's value) and not ruin the meta in premium, it will be restricted to be unusable in Angel feather and OTT" I'm not a gyze player, lost to Megacolony Gyze in London Premium Nats, and it was a good game. I like a challenge and I messed up and deserved to lose the game. Enigmatic assasin is fine, the consistency is so goddamn messy that it's not a problem. In good hands yes it can happen fast, but so can the others you listed. Gb8 spikes can happen on 1st / 2nd stride, 2nd being without a god hand, Ichikishima can kill on 2nd stride easy, same with Zoa, Enigmatic combo requires so much more to go in your favour than the others to actually pull off, and when you pull it off, you'll probably deck out. So it doesn't matter. Elly G guard. yeah that thing is just BS, specially with the grade 2 that becomes a heal trigger. Ange is strong too, but the g guard wins games on it's own.
- Standard is allowed to be a mess because it "will be slowly fixed"? I don't think so. The meta should be healthy at all times. Saying "it will fix itself" is just begging for insane levels of power creep. - I could agree with Gyze being banned from protect clans altogether. - Enigmatic Assassin is not fine at all. You get it before striding (if you G guarded) OR after 1st stride but with the best defensive options whilst keeping your opponent at low damage. I tested the deck plenty. It can brick sometimes, but that doesn't make it okay. Spikes don't even use GB8 right now... Sure, it's in their G zone, but they generally win on Agrias. The GB8 is irrelevant. Spikes stopped rushing towards that, the second G ended. It's an alternate win con for very rare occasions. Ichi can kill on 2nd stride but it doesn't matter. You can either guard early so their second stride doesn't kill you at all OR you rush them to death since they give you damage. DI doesn't. They keep you low and then when they're ready for the kill turn, they go in and finish you. It's a totally different dynamic. If you haven't played against it, you should try it sometime. - Yup
Thanks for the response. Sorry for the slow response, I didn't get a notification. Standard Until more balanced and fair options for a clan are produced, there really shouldn't be bans, I remember when Barcgal was banned as a starter between set 3-5 and Royals were not played because no one (except a few including me) wanted to play Galahad, there was just not enough options. I would say it's fine to limit the cards suggested, but banning would lead to players not having cards that fill those slots well. There wouldn't need to be insane levels of power creep, simply not giving OTT any cards that are more powerful, (give them cards on equal power level, so there's opportunity to test, experiment and change), then simply bump up clans that a struggling a little to match Oracles, give Nova's a fair draw mechanic, give aquas a decent VR etc. I think outright banning/restricting them isn't the right way to go. Though something came to mind while writing this response. I think it would be fair if the Deer instead of being restricted, was errata'd to have the act VC/RC ability ONLY VC. This would mean you can't do a Daughter + Deer turn, only one or the other, forcing OTT to trade power for draw or vice versa. I agree with Gyze perhaps restricted to non Protect clans, though It saddens me with the deckbuilding possibilities that are taken away. Enigmatic assassin is most definitely fine. You get 1/2 before striding, but you're easily countered, both player can sit there damage restricting each other, it does not have enough consistency to make it a problem. Compare it to something like OTT gyze, that deck has consistency and is autopilot, which are both fair statements. With Enigmatic assassin, you're hoping to bang it in soul, or fix it into the soul with Schar / Bledermouse / Tibalt (whichever build you decide to go) there's a lot more thinking, decision making, and possibilities for things to go wrong, and there's definitely more counter play vs Assasin. I would most definitely like to play more against it to learn and test myself. Sidenote - The GB8 reference was simply my example of "every combo deck can get it quickly if it gets the right cards in the right order" I apologise for that not being clear, though I wouldn't say it's obsolete as in London my 5th round opponent used GB8 on 2nd stride, but it's popularity is dwindling, so I understand why it's see able as obsolete,. I enjoy debate and hope nothing I say causes offence, I think it's highly important for people of opposing opinions to discuss and learn from each other.
No offense taken at all! :) I believe your judgement on Assassin is extremely clouded. The fact that you mention Scharhr, Bledermaus and Tibald shows that you don't know the deck. None of those are used to get Assassins in soul. You simply keep Assassin in hand if you drew into it (or guard with it and then Ruthven it back into soul) and otherwise you charge into it. Beyond that, you run 4 Demonted. Remember that Death Anchor soul charges assassins from field into soul if you drew into them. It is EXTREMELY easy to set up. I believe you're thinking far too much of how Assassin was used back in the demagogue days. That is absolutely no longer the case. You REALLY need to play against the deck to realize what's going on with this one.
your arguments are straw-man arguments on gyze and just bad for standard. gyze has fun decks so the cancer decks should be allowed to live on. there is no easy way to let people play it and as more cards come out, there will be more degenerate ways to play it. it is better to eliminate that option before the creep defense more somehow. though i personally don’t see it getting played often the deck is quite powerful and can only get more so. standard being just OTT is not ok as control decks cannot beat it and aggro decks get controlled out by it. it needs some hit. kagero was up there in power but is in line with other clans. OTT in standard still need some hit to consistency due to how good they are. i play DI and while i like assassin it is really broken. you say its fine but since you can just start on it and you soul charge like crazy i would say that it simply can do work outside of looping. it is also not GB restricted making it possible to do some work before grade 3. this is probably the biggest offender and if anything needs a restriction at the minimum. the others are not as comparable as a starter that can also be a 20k base card. with other DI cards it can be rather insane and most competitive DI decks use 3-4.
I mostly agree with your list. The thing is, in standard you can beat a deck by getting some really good trigger luck so you can some what deal with ott. While in premium is not that gyze is unbeatable it's that a format where the meta is either 1 $50 card or decks trying to counter it. It's just unhealth for the game, so the thing with assassin is that it shouldn't be banned unless gyze is banned as, it can be one of the competitors that can counter gyze, besides that the combos is quite inconsistent cause di doesn't have a strong search engine, and you can always denial griffin it we got lot of g guards to get ride of an rg. Ichi-tom, zoa and spikes aren't a problem at all I mean saying to ban them is like wanting to have a meta with only vanillas. I mean they are just basic interactions that are easily countered. Ange is kind of a threat but not sure if you should ban it . Most of all gyze should be straight up banned or you can't run mein gyze as starter practically banning it ( unless you get extremely luck and get it in opening hand and ride it on your starter xD ).
I agree with your reasoning sort of why enigmatic assassin may potentially not need a limit. I think the issue with enigmatic assassin, however, is the No Life King Death Anchor combo. Outside of that combo though, not as bad.
@@raffyk7541 yeah The actually threat is gyze, gyze and spikeswere only meta decks before al4, now with assassin combo we got another meta deck which is kinda good a more diverse meta. Now if you restrict assassin without restricting gyze we will get into a far worse state be only 2 meta decks again. For restricting Assassin gyze should be restricted first.
i am watching Vanguard for a long time .. but this is my first time i want to play because this reboot gave me a chance to atleast start somewhere fresh .. i was planning to go with kagero as my clan , is it a bad choice ?
No honestly I don't think that's bad decision, I watch cardfight Vanguard G. And I ended up buying gear Chronicle for my first deck long story short I don't regret that decision oh, but it would have been better if I'd watched the original first before I watch cardfight Vanguard G. Or as I did it just go with your gut
Y'know, when Bushi had announced there would be a banlist update, and then turned around and said there was no changes to the banlist, that honestly felt like the biggest slap in the face for me. The fact that Bushi left their game in a complete and broken mess for Premium is just infuriating. They seriously need to get their shit together because otherwise they're gonna start losing player base. I've always despised Gyze since it first came out, and nothing would make me happier than to see that asshole banned. As for Bermuda, I don't think hitting Elly would be enough. It'd help, but I think hitting both Elly and Lucille will help curb the deck a little bit.
Many people have the misconception that Ange is the OP thing that made BT viable. Its actually Lucille, since she goes in every single build. Maybe Laila as well. Ange just so happens to be able to utilize those better. If Lucille goes, Bermuda just becomes unplayable as a whole for another 4 years. If Ange goes, then rip 1 really nice archetype. If Sandy/Elly go, then the clan just loses a bit of power. So thats the only possible way to hit it without completely killing every single deck build for years to come. Also maybe hit Kruk since she is gonna be a problem in prem after BT gets Force...
Facts. The up coming trial deck will add another viable card regarding Ange’s skill: Liselotte. Placing Liselotte before using Ange’s skill is drawing free cards. On top of that, we might even see Megiddo regain some glory with the addition of the new extra booster for Bermuda Triangle, due to the fact that you can call 2 sonatas to rear guard, and if you filled the rear guard with different cards that have melody, you’re already doing more with 2 sonatas than you could do with 3 Lucille. Also the imaginary gift force just makes the switch places skill better, because you can just switch rear guards on to the force.
1: Ott is crazy, but the plusing, the daughters, and the protect mix with power is crazy and hard to deal, not to mention Accel decks can't make the drop their hand. Unless it fight a deck with power and move effective attacks, it hard to push them. 2. Gyze, he got to go, right now, angel feather and Ott kills the joy of killing gyze in a fair match, ban his ass before he destroy the game 3: enigmatic assassin, I know it inconsistent, but I the fact it can be done over and over and that forunner was the damn reason blade wings was a pain in the rear (cause he was always call to the rear) 4: Elly, ange, Sandy, and aqua......,.........I play Bermuda triangle and I can say you are correct, a Max power Elly guard is very crazy, but I don't want her band but limited, ange is the reason so is so effective, mix Sandy and Sandee, you have a high possibility of getting heals and defense, but in any deck like lauris, it will take her a minute but ange search and can plus 2 from bounce from field and 4 from draw and search, but I understand
Next OTT support is Magus hopefully it won’t be compatible with the current OTT which is a good thing. Seriously all I want to see currently is just RP n NG getting the support they deserve...as a RP player the amt of times I see them top in standard can probably count with 1 hand....?
So far, they seemed to have tried to not focus on sub-clans... I somehow doubt this will be xenophobic magus-only support. It'd be great if it was though.
I really hope they do hit these cards because I want to get back into Vanguard without the BULLSHIT!!, and I still would love to fight against you solemn Vanguard
Honestly, premium is loads of fun cuz of how it's so challenging, no matter how unfair it is. If your friends were having a game night and suggested play life the boardgame, you direct them to vanguard premium otherwise known as the closest thing they'll find to having a meltdown in a ridiculous game for years to come.
Finally! Someone said it. OTT needed a hit a long time ago. Deer to 1 is perfect, but Promise Daughter to 2 is more than fair. As far as the cards for Premium, I agree wholeheartedly that Gyze needed to be banned a long time ago let alone an effect like that should never been made in the first place. Assassin to 1 is more than fair. The Bermuda G Guard definitely because the clan has technically 8 cards to G Guard with makes it pretty broken. Now for Kagero, I don't see any cards from there to be hit. It isn't that game breaking for a ban or limit.
Been saying this about Gyze since the card was revealed. If they don't actually make a legit banned list, I see this game dropping within a few years at the most.
When it comes to Bermuda the only thing that really needs to get hit is the Gr2 that pays the cost for a G guardian. Even though I play BT I knew from the start it was sort of a bad idea. The fact that you pretty much run 8 heals at that point is too good. I think hitting that would hit BT to a point where guarding isn't so much about a big shield. Maybe at 2 if used in an Ange deck. Think that would help out as with being able to Gguard so much the deck can run a bit more crazy variants but with this maybe it will make them rethink about running more risky plays. I can't say much about the other stuff since I don't really play it so I don't want to say too much about what I don't know. I thought I would throw what I know about BT. Guess this way it makes Ange players have to guard a bit more since the amount they can Gguard get's limited. Trois is another problem with the deck but if anything it would just be you can't use it in Ange decks. I think if they did anything this would seem like sort of a good thing. Hit the deck but don't hit it so hard something else takes the place that is just as bad. Not sure if this would solve anything but maybe with those two key cards hit it would do something.
I'm all for a banned or restricted list for standard at least. MTG does it when certain decks dominate top 8 events, so standard could do it eventually. Last time I remember an emergency ban in MTG was Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. There's probably been more but I haven't kept up to date on the MTG scene.
Sorry but hitting OTT when they have such a limited card pool to play is a no go right now. Maybe when they get more support hitting them will be an option, but for now I doubt it'll happen.
If I were to pick who to hit in ott, I think it's probably deer to 1 like u suggested and imperial daughter herself to 2 or 3 copies. I have no complaints on gyze, but those deers need to go. I barely see peeps riding amaterasu these days tbh, I feel sad for her
Solemn vangaurd.. this might be a stupid question .. but can u tell me .. why OTT is topping and what is the actual thing that makes OTT as good as it is in standard .. that it lacked very much in premium ( pre ichikishima ) ... Why are people so hyped on OTT
Standard is a slower and weaker game where trigger matter alot more, with out strides your deck has less tool box, in this meta defencive decks like OTT and kagero become good again, OTT has slot more card adventage then the average standard deck, protect makes them harder to kill, decent pressure from imperials crit, but the biggest thing that makes OTT good is its ability to stack trigger in a game where luck sacking trigger can determine the game U get to control that luck slot more then the other decks, this lets you sack heals for defence or crits for offence, with promise U can put minimal board presence that can't be retried while having massive pressure because U stacked a trigger, kagero and shadows can't do alot to the board because of promise and OTT don't give about the other decks other than murakumo, also deer is op and puts insane pressure on the board in one turn that out pressures multiple force markers.
- Deer is an insane finisher - Promise daughter fucks potential counters - It can stack triggers in a format where triggers define the game more than ever before - It plusses a lot
For premium: 1. As much as you proclaim ichi/tom is "fine" i personally disagree since that is still literally a high chance of a 3 damage turn before drive checks. If anything give ichi a errata to change her ability to: (GB3) Oracle (Choose a face down card from your G zone with the same name as this card, and turn it face up). This card gains "(Continuous) All units in your front row gain +2000 power for every card in your hand" and your opponent cannot call G guardians and grade 0 cards to to the guardian circle when this unit attacks an opponents vanguard That way i believe allowing only still water being the only one to have the guard restriction would be more balanced instead of an entire turn of no guards thanks to silent tom's "no calling normal units" and still waters no guards and 0's 2, Gyze Banned or at least not useable in a deck that uses any cards from the V series (so G series and below for now...or if anything can't be used in a deck that has a grade 3 that gives a protect marker since it seems that it's more abuseable in V ott and angels) 3. Assassin to 1 is fair and i agree with that since if anything you could at most get 3 vanguard swings and that's it. 4. Victorious Deer to 1 so OTT won't have the ichi/tom/deer finisher combo which is stupid. 5. Errata Ange to make her ability a hard once per turn so then they can't return 2 units and gain essentially a +4 for just soul blasting 2. Do these 5 things and i think premium will be an amazing format to play for now until when bushiroad messes up once again with the v series support
Thank you >~< People can be so petty when a clan they thought was a joke is actually good when bushi builds a actual deck that works with there mechanics
@@SolemnVanguard but so did abyss revenger, and chaos, and even thavas at one point. But no one cares when it's shadows. Thavas kept bouncing back and forth lol, I love aqua force to please don't hate me DX And Chaos got hate for these three reasons.. uhunmmm... Lock, lock, deluge~
Abyss Revenger should have been hit. Thavas in Lambros-release days should have been hit. It's not because Bushiroad wasn't doing anything about the state of the game then, that we should be ignoring the current problems now.
@@SolemnVanguard first off OMG didn't expect a response from you~ Love your channel and content~ >w< Now back to my comment I agree that we shouldn't be like this happen back then so it should effect now, but we shouldn't forget that certain clans get passes and favoritism which is the truth and don't get a passing glance and instead are treated like the cool new winning thing, I'm sorry it's just I wouldn't walk up to you a aqua force player and start saying navalgazer needs to get banned and so does tidal assault. Yes I'll admit I'm being salty cause I'm a OTT main and this hate is attacking my clan, but the real problem is most of the players using it right now a lot are playing to win and want the deck with the best results, but the truth is OTT is not the best it has literally three cards, promise daughter a defender for field presence, imperal daughter which needs to reride to be used in full, and deer which again takes time to build up. OTT is not this unbeatable force, I've lost to many other clans, royal, tachi, megacolony, Nova, and even kagero and yes I'm dreading murakumo lol And people say shadows worst match up is OTT that's silly it can generate advantage from one ride or one call and really punish any deck that dares a single misplay.
While I agree with Gyze, I do feel he has an excelent counter coming with Premium Genesis. Force Markers make the Wiseman loop better than ever, and Gyze can't rely on the increased defense given by new triggers. Will it dethrone the inevitable Gyze Angel Feather (ill thinking about it) I doubt it, but I'll be looking. Enigmatic I think is fine at 2. Promise Daughter can be taken out by attacks, and they do need to spend hand to save her. Why is she so much better than the old resist units? Deer at 1 definitely, and I don't know enough of bermuda to intelligently add to the discussion.
- Premium Genesis is not at all what it's being hyped up to be... The wiseman loop is consistent because of Fenrir stuff. You don't have that when you have to run a gift-based g3 24/7. Beyond that, Wiseman was already able to hit stupid numbers, upwards of 100 000. An extra 10k doesn't do shit to that. - Enigmatic at 2 is still problematic since that's still a stupid amount of attacks for Anchor. One is the sweet spot. - If you spend attacks on Promise, you're effectively not trying to kill OTT. She's so much better than old resist units because the resist units from back in the day didn't do shit and were introduced when plenty of clans had lots of better alternatives.
I feel that Deer is the only card that standard needs a ban. Promise daughter only forces combat retire vs effect retire and Shadow paladin is truly the only deck actually cucked. I agree with Deer 100 percent
One month Later- Standard: limit Daughter g2, limit/ban the Deer. Premium: Ok Gyze, that's enough... Restrict the new tom to not be playable with Ikishichima, same thing with ant-lion/Monoculus and Binoculus tiger and Zoa. Same with no life king and Assassin. I'm also a bit concerned about Blaster Dark in Royals -> BD as V + Llew g2 + Floral Flogal + CC Barcgal + 2 dmg= 4 atks and 1 Twin Drive. And yea... Tested it, it's disgusting.
My take: Premium: - IchiTom hasn't done shit in months. It's not top tier and not broken at all. - Antlion-Zoa hasn't done shit in months. It's not top tier and not broken at all. - Assassin should be hit. - Blaster Dark in royals hasn't done shit ever. It's not top tier and not broken at all. You don't just draw into everything you need by turn 2 like that.
@@SolemnVanguard wow wasnt expecting a reply but you make a solid point. Do you think of using erratas to say limit enigmatic to once per turn? it doesnt kill the deck outright, but greatly reduces its power.
It would kill the deck competitively but that's okay cuz the deck needs to be killed. DI can make very solid builds without the loop that are being overshadowed because of the loop's existence.
@@SolemnVanguard fair enough. Just something else I wanted to ask do you think that dust is still the best ZR? or do you think now with the introduction of standard that Ultima takes that spot?
Dust is definitely no longer the best ZR. I'd say it depends a bit on how the metagame shapes up, but I can see it being a tie between Megiddo huge swing abuse (both Aqua and Granblue can REALLY do this well right now, though neither are hyper competitive), Ultima in Luard and Zoa when heavy guard restrict is at play (like Ant Lion)
Thank you for understanding that IchiTom decks can't carry like people imagine. I've been saying OTT has an issue with being powercrept out of every meta it comes in with time. OTT cannot consistently restand anything, gain extra drive checks, or superior call to gain oppressive advantage. In addition, Tom is blocked by Protect Gifts. The issue isn't that IchiTom is so broken it should be hit, it's that nothing else had enough support to make a statement. There were literally 10 supported clans and Bermuda out of over 20 total. Give it time. When Battle Sister Ichikishima came out it was powercrept and never seen again. The same will happen here (at least until the next wave). More broken things will be coming out that will push these things out of the meta. I've been playing OTT for years waiting for them to be good again, but even I know it's only a matter of time before they fall off the face of the earth and become "rogue" again. I agree with Gyze and Assassin though since those decks almost ignore the meta. I say to hit Lucille over Elly since they have enough ways to multi attack and I personally don't think that they need that power. Chouchou has been my main deck since it was created last year and I can comfortably say we will not miss Lucille. Elly is annoying and allows the deck to turtle insanely, but it doesn't oppressively press back as hard. Does that make sense?
Bushi fucked swordmy for being "Broken" (I know it's no longer restricted but sadly, it won't work now) , and now we got autopilot decks and semi-infinite loops (Refros Laughs).
No need to hit kagero ! You’re right if they hit the deck will die ! They don’t plus and only pressure it has if the opponent doesn’t play around and give them targets so they beef up the booster and swing with overlord ! Waterfall is scary but not as much as OTT. If they do anything to kagero the deck will die
How they dropped the ball so hard with Gyze is beyond me. Take a look at the other final bosses from vanguard. Glendios, a cool idea that had his own unique deck. Then you had Demiurge who also had a cool idea with his own unique deck. Then there is Gyze, literally any deck, and is 100% luck reliant. Gyze was just such a bad design it baffles me. That being said, I agree with everything you mentioned. Promise daughter is way too free for both her effects and deer is too strong for his cost.
Ellie to 1 not banned, that way it maxes out at 75k shield so it takes some skill on the BT player’s part to survive Ant Lion but it’s still possible. Without Ellie at all, that combo just wrecks Ange.
But Elly to 1 still allows them to recycle the best G guard in the game 24/7.... That combo doesn't wreck Ange when Ange is easily able to beat the ever living pulp out of Machining before they get to Zoa.
Solemn Vanguard Solemn Vanguard Elly in Ange is only good because Tirua stride turns it into a 25k shield immediately. If Elly was at one copy, Ange would have to rely on dumping sentinels in order to make it any good, and you can’t consistently do that without drawing like crazy. By banning Elly outright, you’re screwing over every other BT deck, especially those that are sub clan based like Chouchou since they can’t run Sandy. Machining is a terrible deck, obviously a good Megacolony player runs Stag Beetle Ant Lion Zoa turbo with all the draw power in the world and Protect Markers on tap. You keep them at 1 damage like Gyze players do so they’re forced into a weak 1st stride Tirua so their aggression is non-existent unless they drew loads of Lucilles. Then you hit them with Zoa and win. If Elly was hit to 1, then they might be able to get enough PGs in drop to guard that attack. If it was banned outright, they’d have to get lucky with massive hands and then use the G guardian Sandy twice or something nuts like that.
"Hitting lucille might hurt other archetypes..." (the card that is directly searcheable and skill that can be proc'd by Ange) So we hit the generic G guardian (that has a cost/condition) to hit the whole clan? Hm....
Yeah... The freaking deer is a big issue. That card just way overshoots its target by a mile. It breaks to much regular rules of the game with its skill, and it can only become better as time goes on. OTT players already are just waiting for their third crit.-trigger so they can just play 12 crits and make absolutly sure that deer finds 2 of them. The insane consistency paired with the protect-mechanic actually gives them enough defensive-possibilitys that OTT will ditch main-deck sentinels all together when the next support-wave comes around in favour of just more aggression, and they can get away with it, too. Victorious Deer is like a mightier, beefed up version of Sanctuary Guard Regalie with upsides. There are only two ways how this problem can be solved: Option 1: Ban deer. The simplest solution of the two, but highly unlikely to happen because Bushiroad doesn't want to ban cards in Vanguard, esspecially now that we are still somewhat early in the reboot-era. Option 2: A heavy errata. Add to the skill that you cannot gain the extra critical from drive-checked triggers during this turn, and make it so the power-boost only affects front-row units. Not the best change, but it would be the only one that could somehow save the deer in my opinion.
the issues with bushi is they future proof pretty decently but they don't past proof if that makes sense it's why Premium as a format in general has a big gap in power over the other two formats (Let's be honest though who cared about G Standard when it was announced besides me) if we're talking things that need to be banned I don't think vanguard needs "Bans" but restrictions like Gyze can only be played at 1 and not as a starting vg in United Sanctuary decks Assassin I see being put to one box arguments there agree that OTT needs to be nerfed a bit I would say you can only run 4 deer and Amaterasu in any combination so for example 2 deer 2 and y amaterasu or 3/1 or 4/0 it limits the abuse on Amaterasu skill and promise daughter to 1 is something I don't disagree I personally don't play premium but I see where you're getting with not hitting Ichitom or Zoalion but I think it is still somewhat of an issue like I said earlier bushi doesn't past proof well and it's why Premium has very tilting combos assuming they get off making them slightly less consistent maybe limiting ichi in premium to two so the combo isnt killed but they can't abuse it as much then for Antlion limit Antlion to 1~2 in premium bushi doesn't ban things if they did then vanguard I feel would lose one of its unique qualities of not having a "banlist" it already lost the no set rotation trait when they rebooted the series which im not upset about more dissapointed
I think gessa need to be ban but for something different because I don’t think it is good, that maybe because I play shadows. But if should be banned because it is a massively boring to play vs and playing it from what people telling other London nets I foe weeks ago
I'm in favor of hitting anything that promotes solitaire style game play. Gyze needs to go. Its like playing consistent Exodia. (OK, maybe a stretch, but you get it) My locals doesn't have any OTT players oddly enough so I can't say much there. And I haven't played premium yet actually. But I have heard all about the Zoa combo, and the Gyze stuff so yeah. But who knows in the end.
Ban gyze I guess but hitting it in ott and angel would be fine.....definitely hit the Bermuda g guard or the 6 of pg, they need their op guarding hit just a lil bit, leave ange and rivière cause they need it to stand up against other decks at least until Bermuda V comes out. Waterfall limit to 2 just so people do play vague. Assassin to 1 is fine. Banning deer or 1 would work. Tho banning cards in this game seems a bit mean it would be best to just put a lot of cards under restriction with other cards like how they have it that infinite loop cards can’t be played in same deck.
Kagero for the entire history of Vanguard has always gotten a great deal and great quality of support. Fear not, they're okay currently, and are guranteed to get better.
Solemn, I'm gonna disagree with you on Gyze and defensive power creep. Gyze's only real defensive advantage is a 30k base, something that is easier than ever to surmount. Yes, we have Protect now, we have higher shield Grade 0s and Grade 1s... but we also have higher trigger power, much higher power columns, and we have Force and Accel. Even Protect clans have way greater offensive power than a lot of G decks, and they didn't even get an offensive gift (see OTT using Deer to make 50k+ columns). Hitting past Gyze's 30k base is easier than ever before and a lot of Force clans can really put heavy pressure on other decks. The only reason OTT Gyze is topping is because the deck is crazy fast now and shuts down their opponent's deck through damage denial. Trying to win a game with only 1 CB before your opponent second strides Gyze is extremely hard for most decks.
I disagree with ott being hit in standard, I do however agree with banning ott gyze in premium angel feather isnt so bad seeing as all it has is healing compared to ott easily getting triggers and have defense. Sure angels have rescue but that lowers shield value by forcing you to use g era cards compared to ott gyze and it'll also have few protects due to swapping it to dmg and healing. along with nlk assassin combo and ange needs to be hit also.
@@jonnykelly13 nah people have always hated ott even when they had shit support and when they get good support people complain and cry. Ott isn't even that badc considering if you hit anything ott that will make them irrelevant seeing as it has no pressure otherwise.
@@zei6986 again 6 out of the top 8 were still OTT when that happens with a deck there's a problem it's not because of people being salty it's cause it's a strong deck
@@jonnykelly13 not denying that it's a strong deck but it really is people being salty cause people never had a problem when ott was under supported but when meta clans got supported they wouldn't nearly complain as much as ott gets it. Not hard to out play ott and easy for ott to brick, sure it has draw power but when you draw your triggers instead of checking them it kinda loses pressure compared to the pressure force and accel clans have. If you want to use 6 ott tops in a tournament as if that can prove your point there are alot of other tournament results that say otherwise.
Running some G era cards is not a big deal at all... If you get EZ CLAP instant Gyze, losing 5k shield is very worth it. Beyond that, people aren't being salty... Stop defending OTT in Standard. It has a higher representation in tops than GC did at its "cancer peak".
By your logic on premium bans we will just be on an endless cycle of banning the best cards from the best decks until there are no cards left to play. Unless it produces an infinite combo I don't think things are worth banning
No, not at all. Gyze is a gatekeeping deck that's keeping ANYTHING that requires CB out of the meta. It's a totally different dynamic. Strong decks are allowed to exist.
Ott needs to get the deer banned If the deck is still strong without the deer but, just having the deer almost guarantees death Sometimes even if the opponent doesn’t even reveal crits The fact that he just gives everything plus 10k is already really good
comparing aqf 2018 to revengers 2017? Ok. look from wat i can tell, protect clans are getting advantage cuz there's a lot of force players. But accell clans normally beat protect clans...ott included
I don't play standard so idk about that. Premium gyze needs taken out of the format. It's boring and unfun to play against. Assassin needs banned too. The combos with no life king are insane.
you forgot mention that GB skull dragons should reduce to 1 or 2 also Spikes are not really that strong atm. they have waytoo long time to build their combos out.
GB hasn't topped a single event in premium apart from my top in London BCS...? Maybe there was ONE more in the JP metagame, but not that I know of. Also; spikes are REALLY strong at the moment... What long time for combos? They literally start rushing from turn 2 and keep rushing with higher and higher numbers as the game goes on. They are the best tempo deck in the game.
They take time to get their best combo out in premium. Yes they have somewhat strong rush but thats pretty much it. If rush wont work they are donzo if you dont get your gb8 combo out as fast as you can. Even gears are stronger than spikes epsecially with their GB4 with gb8 skill.
Can't wait for Deletors to come and shake up the meta.
Lol Kagero's new support did literally nothing for the deck and Waterfall is carrying the deck, it won't get hit, it's only thing the clan has going for them and they won't even get any support for almost a year. In eng maybe like in June-July earliest if they get support after Bermuda.
Exactly as I said :) Not worth hitting just yet.
I do agree with Gyze and the DI thing though. Bushi should think a bit more about all of this stuff.
AdreusPlaysVanguard Yeah, Waterfall is kinda all we got as a "clear" finish. Tear Dragon's back is probably hurting
No cards need to be hit in Standard format, even though OTT is a major threat.
New cards and new set will fix it.
However your opinion on Premium cards to hit is interesting.
Wrong.
I think we need at least all the clans in Standard to think about banning something
so what do you play in standard?
Dinosaur_Ryusaki OTT does need to be hit in my opinion
I think hit the stuff that will make OTT less broken (even though I am trying to build an OTT deck) and then as new support comes about for other decks and decks advance, slowly remove the limiting if it makes sense. Tournaments are not fun when you know you feel you will auto lose if you see a deck. In my shop, OTT isn't the biggest threat, but everywhere else, I guess it is.
Building on OTT's problem. 100% agree with you on that. I know I'm OTT loyal, but seeing how it's topping every tournament I feel like me playing it at a tournament will put a target on my back. Even though i don't play OTTGyze or imperial daughter.That said, i can see why Gyze in general should be banned he doesn't give any design space and players won't care about messing up. With Ichitom, I think I've said this before, but I'm going to say it again. Bushiroad should put a restriction for both. Either you can play one or the other. or better yet, two of each. So that your opponent can have a chance of defending themselves and enjoying the game. They gotta do something about OTT before we have another Gear Chronicle situation. Every thing else I agree with, I just wanted to put my two scents in on the OTT problem.
Brave Solemn to address a topic such as a banlist! :D
My thoughts on bans in general: I don't like banning cards, that can be used 4x, down to zero. It kinda feels like the card has become equal to trash and if you pull it from a booster pack it sucks. That is why I am more of a fan to decrease cards to 1.
My thoughts on standard: I didn't see the overwhelming power coming with OTT. Hitting the Deer to 1 and Imperial Daughter to 1 is something I can agree with to hit consistency and promote counterplay for other clans versus OTT.
My thoughts on Premium:
Gyze: I don't know what to think of Gyze since I only see lots of matches vs Gyze. By looking at the competitive scene I think it should be banned from certain clans like OTT or Angel Feather.
Enigmatic Assassin: I have played the Blade Wing deck so I am well aware of the power of the Assassin. Decreasing it to 1 or maybe even 2 could be a good solution if this deck is/becomes too much of a degenerate.
Bermuda Triangle: My very first clan and I can only agree that Ange, Lucille and Elly G-guard are extremely powerful. I think the problem lies in Ange that it has on place as well. Removing this option might be fine. Next reducing Lucille to 1 or 2 is also a good option. The same goes for Elly G-guard. Reducing it to 1 or 2 is fine. The reason I don't like to remove any of these cards from the game completely is because the bans should help to reduce the power/consistency on certain deck builds and should not result in the destruction of the a whole clans or subclan (RIP Seven seas cards still banned).
PS What cards do you think should be unbanned/removed form the restriction list?
Promise Daughter is another card that should go to 1 or maybe 0 to help retire based decks. Especially Shadow Paladin.
I think the ztb G-Guardian should be put down to one to slow heritage down
I totally forgot about Shadow Paladin. But you're right, restricting Promise Daughter will help Shadow Paladin as well.
I can agree to a semi limit of enigmatic assassin i feel 1 is to extreme however I think 2 is perfect. (Just for consistency reasons)
Totally agree.
2 still allows them to get 4 vanguard attacks at 40k+ power and crit (3 with double crit), and 10 rearguard attacks (8 at 20k power). That's still ridiculous.
They also go +8 to hand, 4 of which are Protects.
@@a.velderrain8849 so if i damage my one or never see it. Then what do i do. Play non darkness DI deck. Just seems unfair to hurt the deck that badly idk... time will tell.
Run it as your starter that way you will never not see it
Good and valid point mate... I actually agree with everything you said in the video. Being a bermuda player myself in the premium format of the game i see your point regarding the cards you mentioned🤔 though i play chouchou😸
the only other deck i play is genesis in standard.
You know after watching this, i 100% agree with you about the stuff you mentioned! I hope bushi actually takes a look at it to mske the game healthy
I agree with Gyze, Enigmatic Assassin should not be useable in the same deck as No Life King. Everything else I disagree on. The issues in standard aren't that bad and will be fixed with future sets. Bermuda is fine.
Edgy McEdgeface it’s not that bad but the simple fact that when you have 1 clan/deck that’s topping all decks and even in new decks to come and it’s the only tier1 with no other decks even coming close. Sorry but OTT needs to be checks in some form or fashion.
OTT is not tier 1... It's Tier 0
I'm happy to see such a mix of comments, with the ones that in general agree with the opinions of this video. I really quite frankly do not understand the people who fervently support OTT. At literally every single tournament in the English and Japanese meta since *release* OTT has topped with the top 6+ decks *always* being OTT, with the occasional exception of something like Spikes (totally not statistically significant). The main defenses I see are "Oh, new cards will come out that will top OTT, just you wait and see!" Do you not understand that this is what caused us to have to reboot the entire game, what almost killed it(Barring the fact that now four trial decks and nearly four boosters have come out)? It is not healthy for the game to have such rapid power creep just to beat a single topping clan. Do you know what happens if they power creep enough to beat such a dominiating series of cards? Then those new cards single-handedly top. The healthiest and best option for the game, for the meta, is to limit some of these insane cards OTT decks always use. We want slow, deliberate, calculated power creep that enables us to have about a year between power creep cycles so that almost all decks and cards enjoy equal and fun access to the meta against other decks during that year. You do not want what happened in G to the point where the only way to beat the consistently topping 1 or 2 decks for months was to power creep a set of cards to an even more insane level, which inevitably would become the next topping deck for months. The worst part is it seems that the people who all over the Vanguard community defend standard for its "balance" consistently blame G as the one that for its entirety was cancer. Even during some of the most cancerous times of G, i.e Gear Chronicle domination of meta did not have such a one-sided topping of one single clan in tournaments. The cognitive dissonance and ignoring of data is truly staggering to me. Standard has one of the worst balance issues in the history of Vanguard, and power-creeping new sets to fix this is what got us here in the first place. Feel free to debate me on this civilly if it so pertains to you.
Now that the standard support for Bermuda Triangle is coming out in may, and the trial deck in April, I’ve tested some of the new support, and I honestly have to say that I’ve witnessed the bending over of Gyze, mainly due to the fact that Liselotte can make some serious early game rushes, and also that 2 sonatas + can almost constantly over 30k power. Ange + Liselotte can give massive hand sizes, 10 bare minimum at the end of turn. Megiddo + melody and force markers, frequently hit 28k bare minimum, and every melody card that is sonata, add 5k to that number. Every force marker that is stacked on to one rear guard circle after the first force marker, add 10k to that number.
My recommendation: doesn’t really matter what you run, as long as you run 4 Liselotte, 4 Ange, and 4 sonata (with other melody cards of course) you’re fine.
And with that being said, Lucille is soon not going to be a problem.
sweet god, what the hell is that music in the background during the Elly bit?
I have play tested pale moon with ott and the way I got more wins than losses is dedicate one or two attacks on your turn to their promise daughters and other rearguards in general depending on the situation this could be applied to other non accelerating clans just limit it to one attack each turn to a rear guard. it denies counter blast, forces them to guard from hand to keep the rg or let it die and replace it from hand so yeah
A Ho's Life maybe the ott player got unlucky?
A Ho's Life or the ott player is just bad
I'd rather have Luccille be hit to 1 than Elly, funny thing about Luccille is that she works 1000% better in your usual Ange build rather than her own CC build, Lucille to 1 would at the very least dampen the power boost during your battlephase with Alk, not allowing you to boost left and right column 15k before triggers
Don’t hit promise to 1 or 0 mainly because the deck would loose a lot of aggression towards force clans but if our really determined to get it reduced the I think 2 would be the sweet spot and it would mean that players who see he can target her knowing that a large chunk of ott aggression is gone while the player using ott will be more selective as to when to play her
I’m surprised Vanguard hasn’t banned anything yet... Out of the top 4 TCGS world wide (that being Pokemon, Magic, Yugioh, and Vanguard) all of them have banned cards except for Vanguard for some reason....
It's a sign of a good game.
@@matteoalacran132 Vanguard a good game? Hahahaha nice one!
A game without a banlist means the meta is diverse enough and cards are balanced enough not to consistently win all the time. Laugh all you want but Vanguard has been able to do what all the other big card games failed to do.
Matteo Alacran As of right now that does apply to standard, but definitely not Premium
Vanguard and balance don't go in the same sentence. Vanguard will never be big as the BIG 3. #Facts
angel feather is nit the next in line its murakumo cuz you can just send back left and right arresters continuously and to the combi and with cards like dart spider hidden scroll and the counter charge heal it can do the combo again until you eventually go into gyze
I agree with restricting Deer to one, however rather than reducing Promise Daughter, I would suggest that they change the text of her resist skill, saying that she can't be retired by opponent's card effects OR chosen, meaning that Shadow Paladin players can skill retire other OTT units since the opponent can't choose Promise Daughter when doing the retiring skill.
Everything else in Standard is fine tho, can't comment on Premium since I have no experience in that format.
Please do a granblue standard deck vs another standard deck (with commentary please) i love your channel btw . Dont stop making vids
I like your anyalsis on OTT. It would be nice to actually be able to retire w SP vs OTT. I even found that my AqF had trouble beating OTT sometimes. Definately agree w u.
As of recently, I would add any starters that can enable Superior Ride in Premium, particularly The old Kryph. It is crazy that Ezel can essentially Stride on your grade 2 turn if they went first, as well as potential Accel spam via Wonder Ezel. On top of all that, they can either then kill you with Glorius Reign or Ultima if you haven’t recovered.
And who can forget the insanity that is Raven Haired that blocks you from guarding with anything other than g1?
Perhaps I just had bad experiences with Ezel, but I personally find it annoyingly busted.
Even if you only hit old Kryph, they can still use the less consistent new sup ride. Beaumains needs to be gone and the old stride rule needs to come back.
Agreed on the Stride rule and for Beaumains. I just wasn't sure we had to go so far as to hit the new Beaumains but you do have a point, he singlehandedly makes the sup ride consistent. Also, Soul-Banger senpai has replied!
For my opinion:
Standard : Nothing yet cuz the nwe Murakumo and Palemoon can decrease OTT chance to win (Palemoon is very deadly if damage check with no trigger.)
Premium : for Gyze, I think just restrict that Gyze cannot used in Protect clan would be enough.
for assassin and NLK combo : Assassin + NLK shouldn't be more than 4. It'll be the option for someone who want to use Blade wing combo. I think limiting to 1 is just kick this off the cliff and shoot Spike Brothers and Alfred deck up to meta (At that time, BB and Flogal combo will be the next target. Or maybe Benon)
for Ange: I think limiting Ange to 1 maybe enough.
Assassin loop is good when it goes off but it dosent always happen
Spike brothers kinda have the same kill technique in multiple ways
So I actually played against Icchi-Tom a few days ago with a buddy who plays it and knows what he's doing, and i was using my premium Aqua Force build. It was honestly a pretty even game.
Yup!
My friends really hates me when I swing balaam and baleful/gastille at them. Until now they're still hoping for that combo to be banned. Could that go to?
Nahh, that's not a problematic combo at all.
Honestly agree with most of the list.
Only thing I'd add is that you might need to keep an eye on premium viktor.
The ZOA, Antlion and Phantom Black combo is good but not broke. The one thing that keeps it from being the best thing ever is defensive shield creep. With the new V-series shield values, the 99,999 power that antlion attacks with can be easily blocked by a G-Guardian, four 15k triggers and a intercept.
GamingGuysNow that is 5 cards that u need at the exact time that ur opponent uses zoa though so if they 2nd stride it most likely youwont have those 5 cards yet
Hello solemn would you say Gyze would work with the infinate zero build? as you can get a decent hand size
I think preventing Gyze from being played in Angel Feather and Oracle decks might be a comprise I can live with if it doesn't get banned outright.
I think that reducing lucille to 1 in ange or banning elly in ange would be better than banning it altogether. Elly is really broken in ange. However in other decks it just becomes a really good g guard. Personally I think that only in ange decks does elly need any restrictions the rest of the decks like chouchou should not have to take a big hit out of their defense just because ange is too good.
I agree with the rest of your banlist though. I would also like to ask about your opinion on accel ultima Ezel and whether it would be viable in the current meta. Big fan of your content. Please continue to make quality videos for your community to enjoy!
Standard seems fine without a ban list for now I think :) I can't speak for Premium but I do like how in Standard it does feel generally pretty balanced even though OTT does seem to be dominating the competitive side somewhat.
I wouldn't bother hitting OTT, because, like you said, it appears to not be an issue after AL4, so seems a bit too late to hit it. I hate the idea of hitting cards just before new support would have fixed the issue anyway. If it becomes a huge problem after they are supported again, then sure, hit them then.
I think part of OTT's dominance was also to do with the lower quality of Accel clans during the first few sets. Gold Paladin are looking to be a very solid Accel clan, so itself and Murakumo (who will also get support soon too) should continue to keep OTT from being a huge threat.
As more results are coming out, Muras have actually stopped topping entirely. It's why I alluded to wait and see what AL4 ACTUALLY does when its representation drops. OTT and SP are pretty much the thing to play right now.
Didn't they take first and second place in WGP Singapore last week?
I just started playing and am opening the boxes I buy on youtube. What boxes are best to open to build some good standard decks?
Depends on the clan u want to build
U can start with nova grapplers
My views:
Standard
is fine, leave it as it is. OTT is strong yes, but will be slowly fixed. Deer 1 seems the most reasonable
Waterfall is fine, keep it the same. It literally carriers kagero, so lets not kill that clan.
Gyze is tricky, because I've seen loads of intricate and fun versions of gyze, so I feel banning it takes away certain player's chance to make interesting out of nowhere gyze builds. I think it'd be fair to ban it with Angel Feather and OTT. I don't think players would disagree. It would be similar to new Jumping Jill and purple trapeizist. I could see a statement by bushiroad being "we didn't forsee it's
power with these two clans, so in order to allow it to still be played (retaining it's value) and not ruin the meta in premium, it will be restricted to be unusable in Angel feather and OTT" I'm not a gyze player, lost to Megacolony Gyze in London Premium Nats, and it was a good game. I like a challenge and I messed up and deserved to lose the game.
Enigmatic assasin is fine, the consistency is so goddamn messy that it's not a problem. In good hands yes it can happen fast, but so can the others you listed. Gb8 spikes can happen on 1st / 2nd stride, 2nd being without a god hand, Ichikishima can kill on 2nd stride easy, same with Zoa, Enigmatic combo requires so much more to go in your favour than the others to actually pull off, and when you pull it off, you'll probably deck out. So it doesn't matter.
Elly G guard.
yeah that thing is just BS, specially with the grade 2 that becomes a heal trigger. Ange is strong too, but the g guard wins games on it's own.
- Standard is allowed to be a mess because it "will be slowly fixed"? I don't think so. The meta should be healthy at all times. Saying "it will fix itself" is just begging for insane levels of power creep.
- I could agree with Gyze being banned from protect clans altogether.
- Enigmatic Assassin is not fine at all. You get it before striding (if you G guarded) OR after 1st stride but with the best defensive options whilst keeping your opponent at low damage. I tested the deck plenty. It can brick sometimes, but that doesn't make it okay. Spikes don't even use GB8 right now... Sure, it's in their G zone, but they generally win on Agrias. The GB8 is irrelevant. Spikes stopped rushing towards that, the second G ended. It's an alternate win con for very rare occasions. Ichi can kill on 2nd stride but it doesn't matter.
You can either guard early so their second stride doesn't kill you at all OR you rush them to death since they give you damage. DI doesn't. They keep you low and then when they're ready for the kill turn, they go in and finish you. It's a totally different dynamic. If you haven't played against it, you should try it sometime.
- Yup
Thanks for the response. Sorry for the slow response, I didn't get a notification.
Standard
Until more balanced and fair options for a clan are produced, there really shouldn't be bans, I remember when Barcgal was banned as a starter between set 3-5 and Royals were
not played because no one (except a few including me) wanted to play Galahad, there was just not enough options. I would say it's fine to limit the cards suggested, but banning
would lead to players not having cards that fill those slots well. There wouldn't need to be insane levels of power creep, simply not giving OTT any cards that are more powerful,
(give them cards on equal power level, so there's opportunity to test, experiment and change), then simply bump up clans that a struggling a little to match Oracles, give Nova's a
fair draw mechanic, give aquas a decent VR etc. I think outright banning/restricting them isn't the right way to go.
Though something came to mind while writing this response. I think it would be fair if the Deer instead of being restricted, was errata'd to have the act VC/RC ability ONLY VC.
This would mean you can't do a Daughter + Deer turn, only one or the other, forcing OTT to trade power for draw or vice versa.
I agree with Gyze perhaps restricted to non Protect clans, though It saddens me with the deckbuilding possibilities that are taken away.
Enigmatic assassin is most definitely fine. You get 1/2 before striding, but you're easily countered, both player can sit there damage restricting each other, it does not have enough consistency to make it a problem. Compare it to something like OTT gyze, that deck has consistency and is autopilot, which are both fair statements. With Enigmatic assassin,
you're hoping to bang it in soul, or fix it into the soul with Schar / Bledermouse / Tibalt (whichever build you decide to go) there's a lot more thinking, decision making, and
possibilities for things to go wrong, and there's definitely more counter play vs Assasin. I would most definitely like to play more against it to learn and test myself.
Sidenote - The GB8 reference was simply my example of "every combo deck can get it quickly if it gets the right cards in the right order" I apologise for that not being clear, though I wouldn't say it's obsolete as in London my 5th round opponent used GB8 on 2nd stride, but it's popularity is dwindling, so I understand why it's see able as obsolete,.
I enjoy debate and hope nothing I say causes offence, I think it's highly important for people of opposing opinions to discuss and learn from each other.
No offense taken at all! :)
I believe your judgement on Assassin is extremely clouded. The fact that you mention Scharhr, Bledermaus and Tibald shows that you don't know the deck.
None of those are used to get Assassins in soul.
You simply keep Assassin in hand if you drew into it (or guard with it and then Ruthven it back into soul) and otherwise you charge into it. Beyond that, you run 4 Demonted.
Remember that Death Anchor soul charges assassins from field into soul if you drew into them. It is EXTREMELY easy to set up. I believe you're thinking far too much of how Assassin was used back in the demagogue days. That is absolutely no longer the case. You REALLY need to play against the deck to realize what's going on with this one.
your arguments are straw-man arguments on gyze and just bad for standard. gyze has fun decks so the cancer decks should be allowed to live on. there is no easy way to let people play it and as more cards come out, there will be more degenerate ways to play it. it is better to eliminate that option before the creep defense more somehow. though i personally don’t see it getting played often the deck is quite powerful and can only get more so.
standard being just OTT is not ok as control decks cannot beat it and aggro decks get controlled out by it. it needs some hit. kagero was up there in power but is in line with other clans. OTT in standard still need some hit to consistency due to how good they are.
i play DI and while i like assassin it is really broken. you say its fine but since you can just start on it and you soul charge like crazy i would say that it simply can do work outside of looping. it is also not GB restricted making it possible to do some work before grade 3. this is probably the biggest offender and if anything needs a restriction at the minimum. the others are not as comparable as a starter that can also be a 20k base card. with other DI cards it can be rather insane and most competitive DI decks use 3-4.
I mostly agree with your list.
The thing is, in standard you can beat a deck by getting some really good trigger luck so you can some what deal with ott.
While in premium is not that gyze is unbeatable it's that a format where the meta is either 1 $50 card or decks trying to counter it. It's just unhealth for the game, so the thing with assassin is that it shouldn't be banned unless gyze is banned as, it can be one of the competitors that can counter gyze, besides that the combos is quite inconsistent cause di doesn't have a strong search engine, and you can always denial griffin it we got lot of g guards to get ride of an rg.
Ichi-tom, zoa and spikes aren't a problem at all I mean saying to ban them is like wanting to have a meta with only vanillas. I mean they are just basic interactions that are easily countered. Ange is kind of a threat but not sure if you should ban it .
Most of all gyze should be straight up banned or you can't run mein gyze as starter practically banning it ( unless you get extremely luck and get it in opening hand and ride it on your starter xD ).
I agree with your reasoning sort of why enigmatic assassin may potentially not need a limit. I think the issue with enigmatic assassin, however, is the No Life King Death Anchor combo. Outside of that combo though, not as bad.
“OTT isn't as big of a problem if you just get lucky.”
@@defectivesickle5643 I mean decks like kagero and novas can beat ott, and others can do something with a bit if trigger luck.
@@raffyk7541 yeah
The actually threat is gyze, gyze and spikeswere only meta decks before al4, now with assassin combo we got another meta deck which is kinda good a more diverse meta. Now if you restrict assassin without restricting gyze we will get into a far worse state be only 2 meta decks again. For restricting Assassin gyze should be restricted first.
@@mujtabasirius Completely agree.
i am watching Vanguard for a long time .. but this is my first time i want to play because this reboot gave me a chance to atleast start somewhere fresh .. i was planning to go with kagero as my clan , is it a bad choice ?
No honestly I don't think that's bad decision, I watch cardfight Vanguard G. And I ended up buying gear Chronicle for my first deck long story short I don't regret that decision oh, but it would have been better if I'd watched the original first before I watch cardfight Vanguard G. Or as I did it just go with your gut
Y'know, when Bushi had announced there would be a banlist update, and then turned around and said there was no changes to the banlist, that honestly felt like the biggest slap in the face for me. The fact that Bushi left their game in a complete and broken mess for Premium is just infuriating. They seriously need to get their shit together because otherwise they're gonna start losing player base.
I've always despised Gyze since it first came out, and nothing would make me happier than to see that asshole banned. As for Bermuda, I don't think hitting Elly would be enough. It'd help, but I think hitting both Elly and Lucille will help curb the deck a little bit.
Many people have the misconception that Ange is the OP thing that made BT viable. Its actually Lucille, since she goes in every single build. Maybe Laila as well. Ange just so happens to be able to utilize those better. If Lucille goes, Bermuda just becomes unplayable as a whole for another 4 years. If Ange goes, then rip 1 really nice archetype. If Sandy/Elly go, then the clan just loses a bit of power. So thats the only possible way to hit it without completely killing every single deck build for years to come. Also maybe hit Kruk since she is gonna be a problem in prem after BT gets Force...
Facts. The up coming trial deck will add another viable card regarding Ange’s skill: Liselotte. Placing Liselotte before using Ange’s skill is drawing free cards.
On top of that, we might even see Megiddo regain some glory with the addition of the new extra booster for Bermuda Triangle, due to the fact that you can call 2 sonatas to rear guard, and if you filled the rear guard with different cards that have melody, you’re already doing more with 2 sonatas than you could do with 3 Lucille. Also the imaginary gift force just makes the switch places skill better, because you can just switch rear guards on to the force.
1: Ott is crazy, but the plusing, the daughters, and the protect mix with power is crazy and hard to deal, not to mention Accel decks can't make the drop their hand. Unless it fight a deck with power and move effective attacks, it hard to push them.
2. Gyze, he got to go, right now, angel feather and Ott kills the joy of killing gyze in a fair match, ban his ass before he destroy the game
3: enigmatic assassin, I know it inconsistent, but I the fact it can be done over and over and that forunner was the damn reason blade wings was a pain in the rear (cause he was always call to the rear)
4: Elly, ange, Sandy, and aqua......,.........I play Bermuda triangle and I can say you are correct, a Max power Elly guard is very crazy, but I don't want her band but limited, ange is the reason so is so effective, mix Sandy and Sandee, you have a high possibility of getting heals and defense, but in any deck like lauris, it will take her a minute but ange search and can plus 2 from bounce from field and 4 from draw and search, but I understand
Next OTT support is Magus hopefully it won’t be compatible with the current OTT which is a good thing. Seriously all I want to see currently is just RP n NG getting the support they deserve...as a RP player the amt of times I see them top in standard can probably count with 1 hand....?
So far, they seemed to have tried to not focus on sub-clans... I somehow doubt this will be xenophobic magus-only support. It'd be great if it was though.
Well elly gets weakened by narukami since they can remove are prefect guard from drop weekend are defensive power.
Narukami is not even close to competitively viable... It's literally not doing anything right now. Ange doesn't give a flying fuck.
Yeah but they will be soon. Ocg gets them in December
I really hope they do hit these cards because I want to get back into Vanguard without the BULLSHIT!!, and I still would love to fight against you solemn Vanguard
Any idea when we can get a post al4 tier list?
Honestly, premium is loads of fun cuz of how it's so challenging, no matter how unfair it is. If your friends were having a game night and suggested play life the boardgame, you direct them to vanguard premium otherwise known as the closest thing they'll find to having a meltdown in a ridiculous game for years to come.
But it's not unfair. It's literally the best format the game has EVER seen if they just hit 2 cards...
Is Scharhrot good in this meta? Pls reply cuz I have one deck
Yes
Finally! Someone said it. OTT needed a hit a long time ago. Deer to 1 is perfect, but Promise Daughter to 2 is more than fair. As far as the cards for Premium, I agree wholeheartedly that Gyze needed to be banned a long time ago let alone an effect like that should never been made in the first place. Assassin to 1 is more than fair. The Bermuda G Guard definitely because the clan has technically 8 cards to G Guard with makes it pretty broken. Now for Kagero, I don't see any cards from there to be hit. It isn't that game breaking for a ban or limit.
Been saying this about Gyze since the card was revealed. If they don't actually make a legit banned list, I see this game dropping within a few years at the most.
Solumn can you do a premium teir list
No need, Gyze OTT is so strong it takes up all the tiers.
Lol
Gyze is poop.
Noob question, does vanguard have a ban list?
I like how you say how many Luxury's ange has when Elly is showing and it's actual name is luxury wave
I saw that after editing as well xD
No Fight, No Guard Solemn Vanguard version
When it comes to Bermuda the only thing that really needs to get hit is the Gr2 that pays the cost for a G guardian. Even though I play BT I knew from the start it was sort of a bad idea. The fact that you pretty much run 8 heals at that point is too good. I think hitting that would hit BT to a point where guarding isn't so much about a big shield. Maybe at 2 if used in an Ange deck. Think that would help out as with being able to Gguard so much the deck can run a bit more crazy variants but with this maybe it will make them rethink about running more risky plays.
I can't say much about the other stuff since I don't really play it so I don't want to say too much about what I don't know. I thought I would throw what I know about BT. Guess this way it makes Ange players have to guard a bit more since the amount they can Gguard get's limited.
Trois is another problem with the deck but if anything it would just be you can't use it in Ange decks.
I think if they did anything this would seem like sort of a good thing. Hit the deck but don't hit it so hard something else takes the place that is just as bad. Not sure if this would solve anything but maybe with those two key cards hit it would do something.
I'm all for a banned or restricted list for standard at least. MTG does it when certain decks dominate top 8 events, so standard could do it eventually. Last time I remember an emergency ban in MTG was Stoneforge Mystic and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. There's probably been more but I haven't kept up to date on the MTG scene.
Both formats should. You want to have 2 great formats both bringing their own awesome things to the table.
I dun think restriction shld be done in standard. The standard is still quite new and the meta need time to stabilize
Sorry but hitting OTT when they have such a limited card pool to play is a no go right now.
Maybe when they get more support hitting them will be an option, but for now I doubt it'll happen.
If I were to pick who to hit in ott, I think it's probably deer to 1 like u suggested and imperial daughter herself to 2 or 3 copies. I have no complaints on gyze, but those deers need to go. I barely see peeps riding amaterasu these days tbh, I feel sad for her
Can you do how to beat ott gyze or death anchor assassin
Solemn vangaurd.. this might be a stupid question .. but can u tell me .. why OTT is topping and what is the actual thing that makes OTT as good as it is in standard .. that it lacked very much in premium ( pre ichikishima ) ... Why are people so hyped on OTT
Standard is a slower and weaker game where trigger matter alot more, with out strides your deck has less tool box, in this meta defencive decks like OTT and kagero become good again, OTT has slot more card adventage then the average standard deck, protect makes them harder to kill, decent pressure from imperials crit, but the biggest thing that makes OTT good is its ability to stack trigger in a game where luck sacking trigger can determine the game U get to control that luck slot more then the other decks, this lets you sack heals for defence or crits for offence, with promise U can put minimal board presence that can't be retried while having massive pressure because U stacked a trigger, kagero and shadows can't do alot to the board because of promise and OTT don't give about the other decks other than murakumo, also deer is op and puts insane pressure on the board in one turn that out pressures multiple force markers.
- Deer is an insane finisher
- Promise daughter fucks potential counters
- It can stack triggers in a format where triggers define the game more than ever before
- It plusses a lot
For premium:
1. As much as you proclaim ichi/tom is "fine" i personally disagree since that is still literally a high chance of a 3 damage turn before drive checks. If anything give ichi a errata to change her ability to:
(GB3) Oracle (Choose a face down card from your G zone with the same name as this card, and turn it face up). This card gains "(Continuous) All units in your front row gain +2000 power for every card in your hand" and your opponent cannot call G guardians and grade 0 cards to to the guardian circle when this unit attacks an opponents vanguard
That way i believe allowing only still water being the only one to have the guard restriction would be more balanced instead of an entire turn of no guards thanks to silent tom's "no calling normal units" and still waters no guards and 0's
2, Gyze Banned or at least not useable in a deck that uses any cards from the V series (so G series and below for now...or if anything can't be used in a deck that has a grade 3 that gives a protect marker since it seems that it's more abuseable in V ott and angels)
3. Assassin to 1 is fair and i agree with that since if anything you could at most get 3 vanguard swings and that's it.
4. Victorious Deer to 1 so OTT won't have the ichi/tom/deer finisher combo which is stupid.
5. Errata Ange to make her ability a hard once per turn so then they can't return 2 units and gain essentially a +4 for just soul blasting 2.
Do these 5 things and i think premium will be an amazing format to play for now until when bushiroad messes up once again with the v series support
I am surprised there was no talk about gears in this video. Try your best to imagine ZTB Gyze!!???
ZTB Gyze is a bad deck and gears aren't an issue in Premium at all right now.
No one better touch my Oracle think-tank 😡
I do not have a problem with GIZE becose all of my oponents shit themself when they see me going Voltage with 2x Sigmas in the front xD
Deer and daughter isn’t even that bad. People just mad they can’t retire daughter like every other unit.
Thank you >~<
People can be so petty when a clan they thought was a joke is actually good when bushi builds a actual deck that works with there mechanics
I'm not "just mad" lol. The results are speaking for themselves. OTT has higher representation in tops than GC did at its "cancer peak"
@@SolemnVanguard but so did abyss revenger, and chaos, and even thavas at one point.
But no one cares when it's shadows.
Thavas kept bouncing back and forth lol, I love aqua force to please don't hate me DX
And Chaos got hate for these three reasons.. uhunmmm... Lock, lock, deluge~
Abyss Revenger should have been hit.
Thavas in Lambros-release days should have been hit.
It's not because Bushiroad wasn't doing anything about the state of the game then, that we should be ignoring the current problems now.
@@SolemnVanguard first off OMG didn't expect a response from you~
Love your channel and content~ >w<
Now back to my comment I agree that we shouldn't be like this happen back then so it should effect now, but we shouldn't forget that certain clans get passes and favoritism which is the truth and don't get a passing glance and instead are treated like the cool new winning thing, I'm sorry it's just I wouldn't walk up to you a aqua force player and start saying navalgazer needs to get banned and so does tidal assault.
Yes I'll admit I'm being salty cause I'm a OTT main and this hate is attacking my clan, but the real problem is most of the players using it right now a lot are playing to win and want the deck with the best results, but the truth is OTT is not the best it has literally three cards, promise daughter a defender for field presence, imperal daughter which needs to reride to be used in full, and deer which again takes time to build up.
OTT is not this unbeatable force, I've lost to many other clans, royal, tachi, megacolony, Nova, and even kagero and yes I'm dreading murakumo lol
And people say shadows worst match up is OTT that's silly it can generate advantage from one ride or one call and really punish any deck that dares a single misplay.
While I agree with Gyze, I do feel he has an excelent counter coming with Premium Genesis. Force Markers make the Wiseman loop better than ever, and Gyze can't rely on the increased defense given by new triggers. Will it dethrone the inevitable Gyze Angel Feather (ill thinking about it) I doubt it, but I'll be looking. Enigmatic I think is fine at 2. Promise Daughter can be taken out by attacks, and they do need to spend hand to save her. Why is she so much better than the old resist units? Deer at 1 definitely, and I don't know enough of bermuda to intelligently add to the discussion.
- Premium Genesis is not at all what it's being hyped up to be... The wiseman loop is consistent because of Fenrir stuff. You don't have that when you have to run a gift-based g3 24/7. Beyond that, Wiseman was already able to hit stupid numbers, upwards of 100 000. An extra 10k doesn't do shit to that.
- Enigmatic at 2 is still problematic since that's still a stupid amount of attacks for Anchor. One is the sweet spot.
- If you spend attacks on Promise, you're effectively not trying to kill OTT. She's so much better than old resist units because the resist units from back in the day didn't do shit and were introduced when plenty of clans had lots of better alternatives.
Strongly agree about Gyze, watching this deck or playing against it is just so boring, also the other points that you mentioned here
"Spirited Star, Trois" and "Chouchou, Lucille" can't be used in the deck if you have "Delight Genius, Ange" in your deck.
I feel that Deer is the only card that standard needs a ban. Promise daughter only forces combat retire vs effect retire and Shadow paladin is truly the only deck actually cucked. I agree with Deer 100 percent
One month Later- Standard: limit Daughter g2, limit/ban the Deer.
Premium: Ok Gyze, that's enough... Restrict the new tom to not be playable with Ikishichima, same thing with ant-lion/Monoculus and Binoculus tiger and Zoa. Same with no life king and Assassin.
I'm also a bit concerned about Blaster Dark in Royals -> BD as V + Llew g2 + Floral Flogal + CC Barcgal + 2 dmg= 4 atks and 1 Twin Drive. And yea... Tested it, it's disgusting.
My take: Premium:
- IchiTom hasn't done shit in months. It's not top tier and not broken at all.
- Antlion-Zoa hasn't done shit in months. It's not top tier and not broken at all.
- Assassin should be hit.
- Blaster Dark in royals hasn't done shit ever. It's not top tier and not broken at all. You don't just draw into everything you need by turn 2 like that.
Proposed solution for NLK loop, hit enigmatic to 2
That wouldn't do anything. You can still do a 3CB loop with 2 assassins, which is more than enough to kill 90% of decks.
It needs to go to 1 or 0.
@@SolemnVanguard wow wasnt expecting a reply but you make a solid point. Do you think of using erratas to say limit enigmatic to once per turn? it doesnt kill the deck outright, but greatly reduces its power.
It would kill the deck competitively but that's okay cuz the deck needs to be killed. DI can make very solid builds without the loop that are being overshadowed because of the loop's existence.
@@SolemnVanguard fair enough. Just something else I wanted to ask do you think that dust is still the best ZR? or do you think now with the introduction of standard that Ultima takes that spot?
Dust is definitely no longer the best ZR. I'd say it depends a bit on how the metagame shapes up, but I can see it being a tie between Megiddo huge swing abuse (both Aqua and Granblue can REALLY do this well right now, though neither are hyper competitive), Ultima in Luard and Zoa when heavy guard restrict is at play (like Ant Lion)
Thank you for understanding that IchiTom decks can't carry like people imagine. I've been saying OTT has an issue with being powercrept out of every meta it comes in with time. OTT cannot consistently restand anything, gain extra drive checks, or superior call to gain oppressive advantage. In addition, Tom is blocked by Protect Gifts. The issue isn't that IchiTom is so broken it should be hit, it's that nothing else had enough support to make a statement. There were literally 10 supported clans and Bermuda out of over 20 total. Give it time. When Battle Sister Ichikishima came out it was powercrept and never seen again. The same will happen here (at least until the next wave). More broken things will be coming out that will push these things out of the meta. I've been playing OTT for years waiting for them to be good again, but even I know it's only a matter of time before they fall off the face of the earth and become "rogue" again. I agree with Gyze and Assassin though since those decks almost ignore the meta. I say to hit Lucille over Elly since they have enough ways to multi attack and I personally don't think that they need that power. Chouchou has been my main deck since it was created last year and I can comfortably say we will not miss Lucille. Elly is annoying and allows the deck to turtle insanely, but it doesn't oppressively press back as hard. Does that make sense?
Bushi fucked swordmy for being "Broken" (I know it's no longer restricted but sadly, it won't work now) , and now we got autopilot decks and semi-infinite loops (Refros Laughs).
No need to hit kagero ! You’re right if they hit the deck will die ! They don’t plus and only pressure it has if the opponent doesn’t play around and give them targets so they beef up the booster and swing with overlord ! Waterfall is scary but not as much as OTT. If they do anything to kagero the deck will die
Mick the ghostie, limiting it was not enough it has been running the format
Banned in premium or standard format? Or just in general???
How they dropped the ball so hard with Gyze is beyond me. Take a look at the other final bosses from vanguard. Glendios, a cool idea that had his own unique deck. Then you had Demiurge who also had a cool idea with his own unique deck. Then there is Gyze, literally any deck, and is 100% luck reliant. Gyze was just such a bad design it baffles me.
That being said, I agree with everything you mentioned. Promise daughter is way too free for both her effects and deer is too strong for his cost.
Ellie to 1 not banned, that way it maxes out at 75k shield so it takes some skill on the BT player’s part to survive Ant Lion but it’s still possible. Without Ellie at all, that combo just wrecks Ange.
But Elly to 1 still allows them to recycle the best G guard in the game 24/7....
That combo doesn't wreck Ange when Ange is easily able to beat the ever living pulp out of Machining before they get to Zoa.
how about putting it to 1 and then banning the g2 heal so you are limited to 4 - 5 instead of 8
Solemn Vanguard Solemn Vanguard Elly in Ange is only good because Tirua stride turns it into a 25k shield immediately. If Elly was at one copy, Ange would have to rely on dumping sentinels in order to make it any good, and you can’t consistently do that without drawing like crazy.
By banning Elly outright, you’re screwing over every other BT deck, especially those that are sub clan based like Chouchou since they can’t run Sandy.
Machining is a terrible deck, obviously a good Megacolony player runs Stag Beetle Ant Lion Zoa turbo with all the draw power in the world and Protect Markers on tap. You keep them at 1 damage like Gyze players do so they’re forced into a weak 1st stride Tirua so their aggression is non-existent unless they drew loads of Lucilles. Then you hit them with Zoa and win. If Elly was hit to 1, then they might be able to get enough PGs in drop to guard that attack. If it was banned outright, they’d have to get lucky with massive hands and then use the G guardian Sandy twice or something nuts like that.
I just wanna say: I agree with everything you said.
Awesome! :)
Solemn Vanguard can u do a top 3 deck post vbt04
I was waiting for Heritage and Deluge!!!!!! Also where is my MALE LUARD mat by Zero damage gaming mang!!!!!
how about making diablos a cray elemental?
lol plz yes
"Hitting lucille might hurt other archetypes..." (the card that is directly searcheable and skill that can be proc'd by Ange)
So we hit the generic G guardian (that has a cost/condition) to hit the whole clan?
Hm....
Yeah... The freaking deer is a big issue. That card just way overshoots its target by a mile. It breaks to much regular rules of the game with its skill, and it can only become better as time goes on. OTT players already are just waiting for their third crit.-trigger so they can just play 12 crits and make absolutly sure that deer finds 2 of them. The insane consistency paired with the protect-mechanic actually gives them enough defensive-possibilitys that OTT will ditch main-deck sentinels all together when the next support-wave comes around in favour of just more aggression, and they can get away with it, too. Victorious Deer is like a mightier, beefed up version of Sanctuary Guard Regalie with upsides.
There are only two ways how this problem can be solved:
Option 1: Ban deer. The simplest solution of the two, but highly unlikely to happen because Bushiroad doesn't want to ban cards in Vanguard, esspecially now that we are still somewhat early in the reboot-era.
Option 2: A heavy errata. Add to the skill that you cannot gain the extra critical from drive-checked triggers during this turn, and make it so the power-boost only affects front-row units. Not the best change, but it would be the only one that could somehow save the deer in my opinion.
the issues with bushi is they future proof pretty decently but they don't past proof if that makes sense it's why Premium as a format in general has a big gap in power over the other two formats (Let's be honest though who cared about G Standard when it was announced besides me)
if we're talking things that need to be banned I don't think vanguard needs "Bans" but restrictions like Gyze can only be played at 1 and not as a starting vg in United Sanctuary decks Assassin I see being put to one box arguments there agree that OTT needs to be nerfed a bit I would say you can only run 4 deer and Amaterasu in any combination so for example 2 deer 2 and y amaterasu or 3/1 or 4/0 it limits the abuse on Amaterasu skill and promise daughter to 1 is something I don't disagree I personally don't play premium but I see where you're getting with not hitting Ichitom or Zoalion but I think it is still somewhat of an issue like I said earlier bushi doesn't past proof well and it's why Premium has very tilting combos assuming they get off making them slightly less consistent maybe limiting ichi in premium to two so the combo isnt killed but they can't abuse it as much then for Antlion limit Antlion to 1~2 in premium
bushi doesn't ban things if they did then vanguard I feel would lose one of its unique qualities of not having a "banlist" it already lost the no set rotation trait when they rebooted the series which im not upset about more dissapointed
I think gessa need to be ban but for something different because I don’t think it is good, that maybe because I play shadows. But if should be banned because it is a massively boring to play vs and playing it from what people telling other London nets I foe weeks ago
I'm in favor of hitting anything that promotes solitaire style game play. Gyze needs to go. Its like playing consistent Exodia. (OK, maybe a stretch, but you get it)
My locals doesn't have any OTT players oddly enough so I can't say much there. And I haven't played premium yet actually. But I have heard all about the Zoa combo, and the Gyze stuff so yeah.
But who knows in the end.
I just came to hear him say Gyze bye👋🏾 😂😂😂😂
Ban gyze I guess but hitting it in ott and angel would be fine.....definitely hit the Bermuda g guard or the 6 of pg, they need their op guarding hit just a lil bit, leave ange and rivière cause they need it to stand up against other decks at least until Bermuda V comes out. Waterfall limit to 2 just so people do play vague. Assassin to 1 is fine. Banning deer or 1 would work. Tho banning cards in this game seems a bit mean it would be best to just put a lot of cards under restriction with other cards like how they have it that infinite loop cards can’t be played in same deck.
I love Kagero since original Season 1, but it isn't competitive in Standard at all :'c ...
I know the feels man 😢
Kagero for the entire history of Vanguard has always gotten a great deal and great quality of support. Fear not, they're okay currently, and are guranteed to get better.
30k power?!!! holy sht
Armand Lilananda
Lol u should see the genesis grade 5, that has 70k
Literally what is there to ban in spike bro? They're good as they are
I mean not really they're actually missing a card to complete the deck but still
Solemn, I'm gonna disagree with you on Gyze and defensive power creep. Gyze's only real defensive advantage is a 30k base, something that is easier than ever to surmount.
Yes, we have Protect now, we have higher shield Grade 0s and Grade 1s... but we also have higher trigger power, much higher power columns, and we have Force and Accel. Even Protect clans have way greater offensive power than a lot of G decks, and they didn't even get an offensive gift (see OTT using Deer to make 50k+ columns). Hitting past Gyze's 30k base is easier than ever before and a lot of Force clans can really put heavy pressure on other decks.
The only reason OTT Gyze is topping is because the deck is crazy fast now and shuts down their opponent's deck through damage denial. Trying to win a game with only 1 CB before your opponent second strides Gyze is extremely hard for most decks.
I disagree with ott being hit in standard, I do however agree with banning ott gyze in premium angel feather isnt so bad seeing as all it has is healing compared to ott easily getting triggers and have defense. Sure angels have rescue but that lowers shield value by forcing you to use g era cards compared to ott gyze and it'll also have few protects due to swapping it to dmg and healing. along with nlk assassin combo and ange needs to be hit also.
I mean 6 of the top 8 decks at UK nats were OTT that kinda shows something's a bit too op in comparison to the others
@@jonnykelly13 nah people have always hated ott even when they had shit support and when they get good support people complain and cry. Ott isn't even that badc considering if you hit anything ott that will make them irrelevant seeing as it has no pressure otherwise.
@@zei6986 again 6 out of the top 8 were still OTT when that happens with a deck there's a problem it's not because of people being salty it's cause it's a strong deck
@@jonnykelly13 not denying that it's a strong deck but it really is people being salty cause people never had a problem when ott was under supported but when meta clans got supported they wouldn't nearly complain as much as ott gets it. Not hard to out play ott and easy for ott to brick, sure it has draw power but when you draw your triggers instead of checking them it kinda loses pressure compared to the pressure force and accel clans have. If you want to use 6 ott tops in a tournament as if that can prove your point there are alot of other tournament results that say otherwise.
Running some G era cards is not a big deal at all... If you get EZ CLAP instant Gyze, losing 5k shield is very worth it.
Beyond that, people aren't being salty... Stop defending OTT in Standard. It has a higher representation in tops than GC did at its "cancer peak".
Gyze deck as well has many weaknesses
Yes, Gyze is pretty mehh now. Still un-fun for many and gate keeps quite some decks out of the meta, but I don't think it currently needs banning.
By your logic on premium bans we will just be on an endless cycle of banning the best cards from the best decks until there are no cards left to play. Unless it produces an infinite combo I don't think things are worth banning
No, not at all. Gyze is a gatekeeping deck that's keeping ANYTHING that requires CB out of the meta. It's a totally different dynamic. Strong decks are allowed to exist.
Enigmatic is now banned thank goodness
Ott needs to get the deer banned
If the deck is still strong without the deer but, just having the deer almost guarantees death
Sometimes even if the opponent doesn’t even reveal crits
The fact that he just gives everything plus 10k is already really good
idk man i beat ott with aqf on turn 3 by starting first
I beat ZTB with Revengers in november 2017. Does that make ZTB bad and Revengers great?
comparing aqf 2018 to revengers 2017? Ok.
look from wat i can tell, protect clans are getting advantage cuz there's a lot of force players. But accell clans normally beat protect clans...ott included
So can your dog still play gyze?
Yes, do something about enigmatic and no game no life king.
I don't play standard so idk about that. Premium gyze needs taken out of the format. It's boring and unfun to play against. Assassin needs banned too. The combos with no life king are insane.
Incandescent Lion, Blond Ezel
ban in premium
you forgot mention that GB skull dragons should reduce to 1 or 2 also Spikes are not really that strong atm. they have waytoo long time to build their combos out.
GB hasn't topped a single event in premium apart from my top in London BCS...?
Maybe there was ONE more in the JP metagame, but not that I know of.
Also; spikes are REALLY strong at the moment... What long time for combos? They literally start rushing from turn 2 and keep rushing with higher and higher numbers as the game goes on.
They are the best tempo deck in the game.
They take time to get their best combo out in premium. Yes they have somewhat strong rush but thats pretty much it. If rush wont work they are donzo if you dont get your gb8 combo out as fast as you can. Even gears are stronger than spikes epsecially with their GB4 with gb8 skill.
"Somewhat strong rush", have you ever seen their rush followed by Agrias?
The GB8 thing is an alternate win con and they almost never need it....