There is an aspect of Steve Rogers that when looked at closely I think brings a bit of darkness to his character. I realized this during a scene in Avengers: Age of Ultron. When Scarlet Witch is giving The Avengers visions of their worst fears, Captain America's is of a post war celebration surrounded by his friends from the 40s. This can be interpreted as him being scared of losing them, but he already has, so what is there to be afraid of? I took it as him fearing the end of the "war". Not WWII necessarily, but fighting an enemy in general. Steve is a soldier first and foremost, so when the battle is won what is there for him to do? Certainly not settle down. You may think this one scene doesn't prove that and there was a lot of other stuff going on among this and the other visions, so it's understandable if that wasn't picked up on. Here are some other examples: After the events of The Avengers, Captain America immediately joined S.H.I.E.L.D. to keep fighting for a cause he believed in (protecting people). In Civil War, he fought against Tony to stop the Sokovia Accords from being passed and to save Bucky because he was framed. Even before the super soldier serum, he picked a fight with the guy in the movie theater mocking the newsreel. Now these all may be noble causes, but my point is Steve Rogers is always looking for something to fight for and while his goal may be to end the "war" in doing so, deep down he knows that he has no purpose during peacetime. It makes his character more complicated and it's something I wish they would spend a little more time looking at. That's a long ramble so I apologize for all of that. I just thought it was related to the things you were talking about in your video. Well written as always. You picked out great clips to highlight your points. A tiny criticism I have is that the audio of the clips is much lower than your voice and when you pause for a section of dialogue to be heard it's pretty quiet. Great video nonetheless!
I think it was actually a vision that showed him what he wanted, which was Peggy, even after all that time. But if you remember she disappears and he is left standing alone. Captains America biggest drive and fear and being alone. Thats why he puts friends over morality and frankly who wouldnt, thats why I think he is the most human of the Avengers together with Tony, thats why the battle at the end of Civil War was devastating.
Sean Barlow True, but understand Peggy was the one that got him out of that dream, that encouraged him to find Bucky’s captured unit and planted the seeds of shutting down a corrupt SHIELD. She was always his compass and when she’s gone in Civil War, he truly was lost.
I don't understand how you see the choice Cap had to make as somehow being a corruption of him. He chose to be loyal to the friend he had since childhood, over the friend who was ready to sell him out to the government. The collapse of SHIELD showed Cap that government shouldn't be trusted blindly, as he and his friend Nick Fury had done (even though Nick knew some of what was going on, the infiltration by Hydra caught him by surprise, too). The corruption of Cap would have been him siding with Tony regarding the Sokovia Accords.
I wrote a large comment about this. The biggest reason why Tyler Mowery believes it's corruption is because Tyler has taken a TON of the movies out of context.
I disagree. What makes Marvel characters so compelling is how flawed and human they are. Either decision Steve would make would end up in him losing someone. When Cap loses Bucky, thats probably the lowest point in his life(Infinity War).
Also, I can understand why Cap doesnt really think of Tony as a friend because of their strained relationship. When Tony tells Cap that he thought they were friends too, it shows how Tony's problems with his dad fueled his arrogance and he socialized with Cap in the way he knew how which is wrong but is a trauma that shapes the character. Its kinda sad.
I know alot of people like to dismiss the classic paragon-type heroes (do-gooders who inspire others) as cheesy, naive, and boring, but not only does the MCU Captain America films make them work, but Civil War even shows how these character types can actually be interestingly dangerous. Steve is still fighting for what he believes is good and right no matter what, but the conflict kicks in when it's debatable whether what he's doing is right which turns his determination into stubbornness. Everyone on his side is on his side because he inspires them while everyone against him realizes that he will never give up on what is "right" and thus know trying to convince him is pointless and he needs to be stopped by more forceful means. There's a reason "Civil War" is a Captain America movie and not just Avengers 2.5
It's a Captain America movie because it was supposed to be mostly about him at first. Then they realized they had to involve more of the other characters and especially Tony to really do justice to Civil War which is why it feels strangely like another Avengers movie with a very strong arc for Iron Man too...
TheKersey475 but captain America was completely right in civil war, the government UN is completely corrupted, search up. The UN basically ignored a child porn enslaving ring in Haiti for a decade run by their men, to make them seem better. If the government wasn’t corrupted (a fantasy government) then yea, cap would be wrong, but then being super weapons for the government is not a good thing. It’s just how it is.
@@matiidesign That's the worst argument possible... First of all the UN is no government. The UN has allowed bad things to happen it's true, and there is corruption inside like in any big entity, but it's still the world's representatives and carrefully chosen scandals like this hide the wider truth that without the UN there would be no international community and a lot more war between powerful countries. The idea that one small group of vigilantes can stay uncorrupted and should be unchecked by any government or international authority and not be bent by law is the real fantasy here.
@EB I’m gonna have to disagree with you on that, EB. The reason there is less war has more to do with global market interdependence and a ascendant United States than a powerless confederation like the UN. I mean the former Secretary General Kofi Annan not only was the mastermind behind the Oil-for-Food Scandal which resulted in the deaths of 1.5 million people, at which 1/5 were children under the age of 5, but was complicit in the Rwandan genocides by outing confidential sources to the government and refusing to back a general who asked for assistance in preventing it. Not to mention the general corruption, vote buying, political grandstanding, war crimes committed by peacekeepers and general malaise that makes a mockery of their charter and the millions who died in order to make such an organization possible.
Talking Box@ Who's 'we'. T'Challa is who you wanna be if you're striving to be a good man. If you're striving to be a good soldier, you wanna be Steve Rogers. I mean either way that's invalid, the point of their chars is that they were born good men and all the rest came after.
+Buzz 32123 And where is the one country in the world where Steve Rogers is always welcome? Wakanda, of course, because being a good man himself, T'Challa prefers to associate with other good men such as Steve Rogers.
I think you bring up excellent points, but I ultimately disagree. I don't think Steve acted contrary to his morality just because Bucky was his friend. I think he never believed Bucky would chose to do those things, and turned out to be right. Bucky never fought for the wrong side willingly and Steve was right to save him. Yes, Bucky murdered Tony's parents, but Steve thought he was protecting both Tony and Bucky by not saying anything, as Bucky didn't do that willingly. Overall, I don't think he made a mistake.
@@wagawagabobo6736 why tell him... no offence but he didnt find out until years after it happened and even than he didnt know Bucky was the one who did it he just knows it was an assassination.
@@irontemplar6222 Thank you. I think people missed the part when Steve said "I didn't know it was him." They keep going back to Zola, who in the context of the story only alluded to the Starks being assassinated and then preceded to say that he was stalling Cap and Widow. Plus Bucky wasn't the only Winter Soldier, there were literally 5 others along with anyone else in hydra that could have done it.
@@YuYu_007. not to mention the winter soldier was scrubbed from the record and hence was a "ghost" basicly the worst case is that cap got access to the files and it showed that the Starks died in an assassination instead of a car crash. but honestly why tell Tony you can argue he has a right to know, but in all honesty their are 3 big things when it comes to that. 1. He already thinks they died in a car crash and has come to terms with it. why reopen old wounds when their is nothing he could do about it (from caps perspective) 2. Tony is know to be obsessive about things and would likely drive himself into the earth on a revenge quest which is what happens in the movie 3. Cap learned this from Zemo… your source of information isn't exactly the most trustworthy.
Because Bucky was brainwashed means he shouldn't have to answer for his crimes? I mean people who hear voices commit crimes and guess what, they've lost their privilege to be free
To everyone saying that Tony's reaction is proof why Cap didn't tell him, I hope you can understand the difference between a friend telling you something and you discovering from another source that something bad happened and your friend didnt tell you. Imagine if Cap had told Tony BEFORE Tony and Bucky ended up in the same room. Imagine if he had controlled the narrative and Tony had time to process that, really, none of it was Bucky's fault.
Tony knew that it wasn't Bucky's fault anyways? He chose to blame the gun ( Bucky) instead of the one pulling the trigger (Hydra). Tony is smart enough to know this isn't he? Even if Steve should have told him sooner, Tony shouldn't reCt by trying to kill Bucky (who is actually a victim that has been used this whole time)
All Rogers knew was that, somehow, HYDRA was probably responsible for the Stark's deaths. He learned it in Winter Soldier, along with Natasha, through a quick slideshow when Zola was intentionally delaying them. Why doesn't anyone talk about Natasha knowing? She has the most information out of everyone. She knew the Winter Soldier existed all along. She has a closer relationship with Tony than Rogers does.
Captain America is like batman,superman and wonder woman combine 1. Has a golden heart like superman 2.is human and just as bada@$ like batman 3.has the warrior's attitude and kills people if he had to like wonder woman
This video made me truly realise that "The First Avenger", "The Winter Soldier" and "Civil War" are indeed a trilogy, and a pretty solid one. And I guess it's Marvel's only trilogy, since "Iron Man" doesn't have a continuous arc and "Thor" probably won't have. Great video.
You've oversimplified a lot of these movies to make these points, and sorry, though parts of your premise are correct, you're really missing the larger mark here. I think your second premise for Cap's defining characteristics is way off, it's not just black and white. There is so much more subtlety and nuance to the good vs evil of First Avenger, you just aren't seeing it because you have oversimplified the movie. You could say it was black and white if nobody from the German side was a good guy, if everyone from the nazi side was evil. Except that the very person who gives Steve his powers, Dr. Erskine, is a defector. He MADE the Red Skull, and he changes sides. He was on the "bad" side, but he switches. Not only that, but at the beginning of the film, the very first time they meet, Erskine asks Rogers if he wants to kill nazis, and Steve says "I don't want to kill anyone. I don't like bullies; I don't care where they're from." The entire POINT of this is that it isn't a black and white issue for him when other people would see it as "nazis vs captain america." Yes, it's about what is right, but that doesn't mean it's a black and white scenario. Then with Winter Soldier. You're forgetting who he stands by for the entire movie, the one person who has his back no matter what. Black Widow. Black Widow is a note throughout the whole film of espionage and behaviour that goes against the black and white narrative, long before WS is revealed to be Bucky. But Cap doesn't refuse to work with BW. Yes, they disagree on many things, but Cap isn't so black and white that he refuses to speak to her or fight with her. Nor with Fury, for that matter, when Fury presents a chillingly terrifying R&D project that Cap can't live with. He doesn't disrespect Fury, he doesn't black and white it, he simply presents his principles for what is just and what is wrong. The whole movie doesn't change when Bucky is revealed, it's just the last piece of the puzzle for the plotline slipping into place. Now everything has a clarity to it that was shrouded before. And at the end, with Black Widow releasing the documents to the world, you get an even bigger look into how Cap and Widow have affected each other, and a reminder that Cap has stood by her. He refuses to fight people all the way through the movie, not just Bucky, but when it comes to violence and terror, he does what he has to in order to save the world. I mean, you might not remember, but I'm pretty sure he also breaks Bucky's arm at one point. And then in Civil War you have removed context and oversimplified even more. Cap stands up against the accords before Bucky is ever an issue. Way before. When Bucky resurfaces, Cap is already in prime position to stand up against the accords when his friend needs him. He doesn't pick between Bucky and Stark, he doesn't finally enter the grey world of Bucky, he's already a multifaceted character who makes difficult choices. And then you edit the "Did you know?" scene for your own purposes. You removed Caps' initial answer to Stark: "I didn't know it was him." Cap knew that the Starks died horribly, and spared him that pain, letting him think it was just a car crash, as we see from the rest of the film. But when Stark asks Cap not to bullshit him, his previous answer isn't a lie. He didn't know it was Bucky, he wasn't protecting his friend. But he did know their deaths were an assassination, they didn't die from the crash. Yes, Steve Rogers makes mistakes (you can see that easily from the first Avengers movie without having to edit around the parts you don't like. He clashes with people on the same side and again in Ultron, he should know that Scarlet Witch can mess with his head but he forgets his training and goes in unprepared, then gets walloped by her. But he isn't some tainted symbol, like you present. He's a fiercely principled man who stands up for what he believes in, and sometimes he makes mistakes.
+EternalAzhrei I strongly agree with everything you said, and in addition it was Tony who made all of the mistakes of any consequence, starting with the Sokovia Accords. I have to sincerely question his mental stability because of his tendency to react irrationally in extreme and sometimes dangerous ways. I'm referring to the events of _Civil War_ but this also applies to his reaction to his vision in _Age of Ultron_ , where this whole mess really started. In that movie, watch Tony's reaction to the others questioning him about Ultron when they found out. What does that sarcastic-looking chuckling he did when they warned him of the dangers mean? There are times when he is borderline or maybe even full-out insane, and this helps inform us concerning his actions and especially his reactions in _Civil War_ . It sure looks as though Steve withheld information about the past that no one else needed to know for good reason.
Thank you for agreeing. Also, it's true. You're right to question Stark's mental stability, but probably more his emotional stability. They show in Iron Man 3 that he has some level of PTSD after going through the wormhole in the first Avengers movie. He's not insane though, he's just got different motivations form guys like Cap and Thor. Cap is used to defending the principle of the matter, like in WWII, and Thor is used to rule of the gods. Stark, however, is used to pushing the envelope in science and technology in order to resolve the issues he finds. It's just the way he thinks. So when he hears Cap and Thor telling him off, it seems to him like all the people who nay-say him while he's off fixing problems. So he laughs at his friends when they remind him of the government in Iron Man 2 when they tried to control his suits. On the topic of Steve withholding information though, when he sends the package to Tony he says in a letter that he thought he was sparing Tony but can see that he was really sparing himself. So it's not really about "no one needs to know" form that, it's more about character motivation. Remember, Steve is the one who scolded Fury for compartmentalization during Winter Soldier. He's not about hiding things, he's about not hurting his friends. Meanwhile Tony is admittedly going through a very emotional roller coaster the whole way through Civil War and a little bit in Ultron too; he never really gets time for a break like Steve does. Stark opens on his parents the last time he saw them, goes to meeting the lady whose son died in Sokovia, and then goes straight into the accords and the rift in the team that he built. He tries to make peace with Steve and then has the secretary of defense breathing down his neck, steels himself as much as possible for the fight at the airport where one of his closest friends nearly dies, and finally, after finding out there is more at stake and attempting peace one last time he's brought full circle to his dead parents, only this time, he actually sees it happen. He's there. With all the life changes that he's been through from Iron Man 1 until that point, (surviving a terrorist kidnapping, reshaping his life, almost dying because of paladium poisoning, being targeted by explosive terrorists trying to kill the president who have a personal grudge against him, almost dying in outer space, being responsible for Ultron, and more) it's really no surprise that he struggles with his past, and especially his parents. It's an understandable reaction, a very HUMAN reaction, and despite his suit, Stark is not superhuman.
Personally, I think Steve Rogers places Bucky above everyone else due to them having been childhood friends. The two of them have a strong bond. Bucky is Steve's only real weakness; he'd do anything for Bucky which includes going against the UN and the other Avengers. It is possible that since Bucky is the only living link to Steve's past he is fiercely protective of him.
I think actually Captain America was and is the symbol of goodness and justice however, beneath that is Steve Rogers the kid from brooklyn where bucky was the only person he had left. He even says it in civil war to scarlett witch, after crossbones blows himself up.
I think people are missing the point. For Steve Rogers, the ending of The First Avenger, I think, created a very serious problem for the character. He thought he was going to die but he didnt. He just froze. He's in this state where the war is over and they won but he never got closure for it. Therefore, he's always in this weird spot where he's always fighting. For him, the war never ends. In Age of Ultron, its revealed that Cap really doesnt like the modern age. Where he has no friends, where Peggy is not around, where there is no closure for the war like a normal person. Edit: I think all Steve wanted was a normal life. The freezing is both literal and metaphorical. When a man like Steve who is from the 40's where the values are so black and white and he gets thrusted into a cultural that believes in more nuance, a man like him suffers. The world hasnt changed. The perspectives have. And when Steve is stuck in a world like this, it pressures the character.
Steve made the right call. Tony knew just like Cap that Bucky wasn't in control of himself when he killed Tony's parents. But Tony's immature, and he reacts as well as could have been expected. Cap was trying to avoid a needless fight because Bucky did nothing wrong, but Tony couldn't handle that.
Cap always belive , bucky did all did under the influence of hydra. Not by his choice. And the in civil war his knew the agenda of perticular group will change as per time under the influce of Ross. Thats why he didn't sign the contract about work under trity. He is still man of words not influence and thats what imp.
@Tyler Mowery Though I Love the way you analyze films... I am in high disagreement on this one... of course Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.... But what I think here, is that you are not seeing the full picture of Steve Rogers here... CAP IS STILL DOING THE RIGHT THING... 1. COZ HE REALLY BELIEVES THAT SIGNING THE SOKOVIA ACCORDS WILL JUST SHIFT THE BLAME... 2. COZ HE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN AND SHOULD SAVE THE INNOCENT MAN BUCKY BARNES... The only mIstake Cap made was what he admitted himself in the Letter to Tony at the end of the film. That he shouldn't have kept that secret from Tony, coz he thought that he was Saving Tony from the pain... but he was just saving himself from the pain and fear of consequences against Bucky... who has already been framed. So is Steve Rogers a corrupted symbol of Goodness... I Don't Think so. P.S.: I was the first one to dislike the video.. I have now liked it, coz you did a good job buddy
@@TylerMowery The Captain America movies also prove that those in power can't be trusted or aren't always in the best place to make decisions. The First Avenger shows that Steve made the better call with the rescue of the prisoners. This action would be banned by the Sokovia accords. The Avengers shows the council chose to nuke New York. This would not have closed the portal or taken out the chitauri army. The portal could only be closed with the scepter (Something that was only discovered because there was a team of people there) and the rest of the chitauri were not in range of the nuke if it had been dropped on New York. The only reason that wasn't a genocide of New York was because Tony could make the call to save everyone (He would not have been able to with the Sokovia Accords). The Avengers also would not have been there at all if it was up to the council so no one would learn how to close the portal (and Loki would not have been separated from the scepter if they did). The Winter Soldier shows that an organization built on good intentions (S. H. I. E. L. D) can be corrupted by those with ill will. Black Panther shows that the accords can be abused as T'challa and his group were able to go about their actions in Korea without repercussions. In the case of Age of Ultron the movies don't mention preventative measures for A. I.s but Agents of shield does. The accords made it illegal to make Artificial Intelligence. This measure is very case specific. This would have stopped Ultron's creation. However, if it was not an avenger but a villain that created Ultron, the villain would not have cared about this law. The avengers would not have been able to save the planet in time if this was the case because they would have had to wait for the go ahead. Keep in mind that the go ahead would not have been possible because the avengers and those overseeing them would not have been able to communicate because of Ultron's technopathic ability. If the avengers had waited for the accords to kick in during infinity wars than Thanos would have had virtually no opposition.
I agree with cap. He made the right choice not poking the iron bear too much. He probably would have told Tony later when everything had cooled down. Plus, he is completely correct to not trust the EU. 'Merica!
There are a lot of things I learned from Captain America, particularly in the comics and in Heroes Return. One memorial part I learned was when the Sons of Hydra voiced out their dissatisfaction on how their country, their nation are 'polluted' by people from different races and cultures, making their once proud country nothing like they used to be. Captain America responded by telling the Sons of Hydra that the world is made of different colors and that what makes it beautiful. It was a simple line from the comics but I hold it in my heart till this day.
“And what he says before that, I think IS true… that, ‘I didn’t know it was him.' " - Writers of the film Tony says "Don't bullshit me, Rogers" not because Steve is lying, but because Steve is using that deniability to avoid giving Tony an answer (did he know about the murders) in order to save their friendship. That's what Steve finally says "Yes" to, not that he knew Bucky did it. They also noted that Steve has an emotional blind spot for Bucky (denial), much like most people do for someone they're close to. So, even if Steve did think Bucky was responsible deep down, he never knew for sure and refused to believe it.
In defense of Captain America, how would he bring that up to Tony without being weird and/or combative? “Hey Tony! I just found out my friend murdered your parents, hope you can forgive him because I have to go rescue him from the government because he was framed for the UN bombing, but I know he didn’t do that.” Is it really betrayal, or is it just a case of don’t ask, don’t tell. I wouldn’t have told Tony either, unless he asked me directly.
Ikr? He should've just let an innocent man be gunned down without trial for crimes he committed after having been tortured and brainwashed, or crimes he didn't commit and was framed for. That Captain America, what an asshole.
I guess "betrayal" is a strong word..Rogers did keep the fact from Stark about his parent's death but I guess simply because of his love for Bucky. Rogers in 21st century is a man in an ill-fitted suit and Bucky is his only connection to the past. Both Rogers and Bucky are pawns, the difference being Rogers retains his humanity and Bucky was turned into a Human Killing machine. And Rogers and Stark didn't go along too well with each other so...had they been good friends then maybe, yes, it would have been an act of betrayal
Johnny Liono I agree betrayal is too strong a word for this situation Zola told Cap that Hydra was responsible for the death of Tony's parents he doesn't say Bucky did it. It may have been implied but I don't blame Cap for not telling this to Tony if he wasn't certain
rbrtck It doesn’t what good would come from it, Tony still had the right to know. Steve has no right to keep a secret like that and for so long! If Steve had just told Tony what he knew directly after he found out Tony would have time ro process it, also Bucky wouldn’t have been infront of him. Instead he lied to him for 2 year. If one of your friends knew they real reason your parents died wouldn’t you want to know?
+Noah Orakwue If you put all of the clues together--including the relevant dates (corroborated with information that Natasha had given Steve)--then I think it was a very safe assumption that Bucky was who Hydra used to assassinate Tony's parents. One could argue that Steve could have easily missed the date in the article, but he has enhanced memory recall, including visual, so I doubt that he missed anything. Steve still could not have known absolutely for sure that it was Bucky, but he must have been pretty sure about it, or else he might have told Tony what he knew (maybe). This is why he tried to deny that he knew it was Bucky at first, as there is some truth to that, but he figured there was no point because he was pretty sure of it himself anyway, so he just said yes--it's a nuance that he chose to skip, probably because it wouldn't have made a difference to Tony anyway. I'm not saying that you are wrong, but I think being nearly certain was expressly why Steve chose to withhold that information, at least for the time being. Bucky sure seemed to come around and recognize Steve, and Steve owed it to him to find out what was going on and try to help him get everything straightened out before telling Tony. It was the only way for Steve to do right by both of them. Telling Tony right away would probably have set him on Bucky's trail for revenge. For obvious reasons such as that, Steve wanted to find Bucky himself first, find out what had happened, and then figure out the best course of action for all involved. He was being prudent, given Tony's questionable mental stability. Maybe Tony had his reasons/excuses for this, but it is what it is and can't simply be ignored. Ideally Steve and Tony would have worked together to figure out this mystery, but Steve couldn't trust Tony to keep a level head and be fair to Bucky. And I think that _Civil War_ shows us, like it does at every turn, that Steve did the right thing, judging in this case by Tony's reaction to the information.
Cap’s my favourite MCU hero. Obvs, I didn’t like that Steve knew Bucky killed Stark’s parents and didn’t tell him but, let’s be real here, if we were in Cap’s position, we’d keep it a secret too. I mean, it’s his best friend who he though was dead 🙄.
5:44, of course Captain America can fall but the point is that he always gets back up. He apologizes at the end of Civil War, he makes amends, and he keeps fighting for what’s right. “I can do this all day”, God bless!
Steve Rogers is human, even after becoming Captain America he is still a human, albeit at the very top of human potential. That's all he is and I think the purpose of his arc over these movies is to remind the audience of this. He has some amazing powers so its easy to forget but he is still only human.
Great evaluation of the video however close ending part of when Captain America kept that dark secret of tony's parent is not so collapsed and in a dark turn as others who agree with that. Yes Captain America symbolizes Honor, Justice, Duty, Protect, and Serve for the weak. However he is still just a human even with that super soldier. Everyone does make mistakes, but as far as I'm concerned Steve Rogers is that ancient soul, that courageous, selfless, honest, trustworthy, noble, and respectable character that I would still rather side on then Iron Man. Even though he kept that unfortunate dark secret of tony's parents. Despite of all that Captain American has done many ways to redeem himself even at times when doesn't really have to. He has that good-friendly nature personality of his consideration of others before him. Now this is just me but in my opinion which I want to say its a fact but this is just my perspective of how I feel, Iron Man can never be close nor better then Captain America when it comes to someone who who does things by the morality, freedom, and rights as he works for the government. While Captain America use to but is only fighting to preserved freedom from self-governers of the world and does not want anyone neither himself to be controlled by government operatives based on their own agenda's. Yes Iron Man is well intellect and is reliable and does fight for good of others, sometimes for himself. But Captain America is that one person where everyone will need the very most then the rest of the group in my opinion.
I don’t think Steve is perfect by any means, as no man is perfect. He makes bad judgement calls just like anyone else, but to say he betrayed Tony by not telling him who killed his parents is a bit of a stretch. I can understand how Tony would *feel* betrayed, but feelings and truth are not one in the same. Put yourself in Steve’s shoes for a moment. You found out after winter soldier that Bucky had killed Tony’s parents. What do you do with this info? Immediately run to Tony? It’s not like Tony was actively seeking to find answers about the death of his parents. Tony was dealing with the trauma of it still as all children who abruptly lose their parents do, but it wasn’t something that was a driving force for his character. In fact more often than not when he does mention his dad it is borderline contemptuous. Steve, understanding all of this about Tony, chose not to share the information with him which isn’t a betrayal but instead is something that he was probably putting off for later when the appropriate moment to bring it up arose. It would be a bit odd for him to rush to Tony and say, “hey guess what I know who killed your parents it was my best friend growing up.” He wasn’t choosing Bucky over Tony, but he was trying to solve the mystery and bring Bucky back first and foremost. Once that goal was accomplished who knows what his next course of action would have been. Another thing, which is a bit smaller, is that he isn’t fighting Tony and the other heroes in civil war because of Bucky, but because of his morals. He is not acting in grey but in white. He believes it amoral for the world government to be in control of him which is appropriate considering the events in winter soldier where hydra took over shield. He had just witnessed and been a part of corruption of a controlling force. It is now against his nature to follow blindly the orders of some agenda-rich agency. Bucky just so happens to be a part of this. If you replaced Bucky with falcon the exact same movie would have happened without his historical friendship even playing a part. He’s not doing this for Bucky, but because it is the right thing to do.
+Tanner Hinshaw Exactly, and well said. That's why it's a Captain America movie. Steve still stands for the same things he always has, among them freedom and justice.
Steve always wants to do the right thing and stand by his friends. Before, those were one and the same. Now, he has to choose between doing what is right and his best friend. And he now has to choose between friends. The circumstances he is in fracture his character at its very core, and he has to battle within himself to determine his course of action.
+WafflingMean44 No, Steve was doing the right thing in helping Bucky, who was innocent of the crimes Hydra made him commit, as well as the crime he was just framed for. In helping to protect and clear the name of an innocent man, Steve was serving justice while, in contrast, Tony was acting crazy at every turn. Someone made huge mistakes and did he wrong things, alright, but it wasn't Steve, it was Tony.
+Justin Seagull I'd say that flying into a murderous rage against someone he knew was innocent of the crimes he was forced to commit by Hydra is pretty crazy. Sure, he had a right to be profoundly upset, but he went nuts and stayed that way despite all of the fighting. Creating Ultron using something he didn't understand (the Mind Stone) was also pretty crazy. Sure, sometimes research and development involves risk, but Tony seemed rather cavalier about the risks, even apparently mocking the concerns of the others that something could go wrong (so egotistical he could be considered crazy for this alone). It's too bad that he doesn't pay as much attention to movies as Peter Parker does, or else he might have been more wary of creating a Skynet (from the Terminator franchise) equivalent.
rbrtck Why do people always blame Tony for Ultron? 3 people were responsable for his creation. And the biggest factor was the mind stone, that was the reason Ultron went crazy. In the movie tou can see that the Ultron Tony *and* Bruce tried to make was for protection, but after the mind stone got into the softwear he went rogue. And no he souldn’t have played with the mind stone but stop blaming him for everything. And I maan after everything Wanda did they seemed to have forgiven her like 10 minutes of her being nice, but Tony needs to be kept reminded of his faults. In CW they litterly told her to stop thinking about it. She did all the things she did while she was herself. She wasn’t controlled, she isn’t like Bucky or Bruce.
+Justin Seagull For one thing, it was Tony's idea. Sure, others like Bruce bear responsibility, too, and Tony's goal of taking proactive steps to protect the Earth from interplanetary threats like Thanos was well intentioned and not a bad idea in the broadest sense, but like I already pointed out it was his cavalier, irresponsible attitude that puts many people off and makes us question his mental health. Bruce might have gone along with Tony to help protect the Earth from both outside threats and Tony messing around with dangerous things he didn't understand, and although he couldn't prevent disaster in this case, at least Bruce expressed more reservations and caution. It's not as though Tony would have stopped if Bruce hadn't joined him anyway. This is one reason Bruce generally gets a pass from fans, and another is that due to the rivalry between Tony and Steve, especially given the events of _Civil War_ , fans who support either of them against the other often bring up Tony, and inevitably someone will bring up Ultron. Bruce is just not nearly as much a topic of discussion, and even when he is, his more reluctant involvement with Ultron is rarely relevant to the discussion. As for Wanda, she's more of a secondary character. She and her brother were working for Hydra (or former Hydra), and then at some point they realized they were on the wrong side. She is not generally compared with main characters like Tony or Steve, although those two are frequently compared with one another, with nasty things being said about both by fans of the other. Wanda is just not as important, and her fans aren't all over Steve's case claiming that he "betrayed" Tony and other such nonsense, unlike Tony's fans.
He didn't tell Tony about his parents death, because a) Bucky was mindcontroled b) Stark would immediately try to kill Bucky c) it was civil war, in war you keep secrets.
He was sitting on that info since Winter Soldier. War is not an excuse. And even tho Bucky was brainwashed, he is still has to receive consequences for his actions.
His choice to support Bucky was half of what he chose in civil war. He also chose peronal freedom and responsibility over giving them up to a corruptible authority. That was the main dividing factor. Bucky was just a pawn used to further divide him and Tony.
Captain knew hydra killed the starks but wasnt positive or knew the whole story behind the deaths or even if bucky killed them. He even says he didn't know it was him.
It’s not just being loyal to his friends it’s being loyal to his country as a soldier would, after shield was infiltrated by hydra, cap knew to be able to continue fighting for his country, rejecting the Sokovia accords, he would have to work outside of the law. He disobeyed orders in WW11 when he went after Bucky and he’s doing it again because it’s the right thing to do.
Never in my life will I forget the sight of Captain America pulling a cop out of his car and throwing him into traffic -- so that cap could steal his car. They made him a villain in his own movie. --Teresa
I was with this video until you made the mistake of believing that it was Bucky that divided the Avengers in Civil War. It wasn't. Cap chose to protect Bucky, but the Sokovia Accord were an unrelated crock of shit that Cap, in good conscience, could not sign. That is what divided the Avengers, but Cap protecting Bucky is what fragmented them, despite that it is truly Tony to blame for practically this entire course of events. Cap was never corrupted. He's just as much a beacon of righteousness and goodness as he ever was. The world around him became grey.
To be hoest, Tony was pissed because Bucky killed his mom, he doesn't give a damn about Bucky killing his dad, but only because his mom died at the same time. If his dad was the only one who died that night he might be happy for a while, until he'll realized he did missed and loved him, then he would be mad at Bucky for killing him.
I see a lot of comments below saying that this video is shit, but I think it's a great video. He's just saying that *NOBODY IS PERFECT*. So please, don't bash this guy too much.
I can't say that all those things Cap has done are necessarily flaws just decisions that he believes is right and I 100% agree with what he does. I would say the one actually flawed thing he did was not tell Tony about how Bucky killed his parents. And he even says how it was wrong as that he was only sparring himself with the mail he left Tony. Cap is not perfect but he is human and he is as perfect as he could be with one big flawed decision that he regrets.
People just see the part where he was saving Bucky who was his friend, They don't see the part that Cap was fighting for him because Bucky didn't knew what he had done, he didn't do those things in his own mind.. From my opinion.. helping Bucky was the thing that I would also do!
Cap should have been on Bucky’s side, but at the same time, withholding that crucial information from Tony was definitely not loyal. Bucky would have understood if Cap tried to bring him in, and he would have understood if Cap told Tony what happened. Cap failed.
Good work on the video. You presented things very well, however I disagree with certain things: Steve didn't betray Tony by keeping the secret of who killed his parents. A betrayal would be an act that knowingly exploits a friend's weakness for your own gain. Steve didn't do anything like that. Just the opposite; he thought he was protecting his two friends, Bucky and Tony, from a terrible truth. But that shows that he is a flawed character, that he can't always make a perfect decision. However, that doesn't mean he's corrupted. Honestly, that's really a bad word here. "Corrupted" means his appearance of virtue is false, and that he knowingly does what he knows is wrong, for his own benefit. "Torn" would be a better word. But just the fact that he struggles heavily with these situations shows that he is not corrupted. It shows that he's constantly trying to stay on the true path. It's when we don't struggle with the heavy moral choices that we should be examining ourselves about whether our motives are corrupt or just.
Bucky was brainwashed when he killed Tony's parents and cap knew that. He also knew Tony would still blame Bucky for it and try to get revenge like he did. Keeping that information from him was not betrayal and it was not lying. It was so that there wouldn't be any unnecessary conflict.
Well he also tought he “knew” Tony wouldn’t help him if he told him about Zemo’s plan.... but he did. He didn’t want unnecessary conflict but instead of talking ro Tony he rather has a war with his team mates? Also keeping information of his parents death does count of betrayal. Atleast in my friendship book it does! Tony had the right to know what happend to his parents! If you were in his shoes you would want to know how your parents died didn’t you? And if Steve just sat him down and expained his reaction wouldn’t have been bad, also Bucky wouldn’t have been right infront of his face.
Captain America had no reason to trust the UN or the American government in civil war. SHIELD had just internally collapsed right before his eyes and he had seen the manipulation governments and organizations had done to people. He was right to view the world as safest in the avengers’ hands and to not join the other half of the avengers.
It doesn't matter to Tony. If I killed your parents, it doesn't matter what condition I was in when I killed them. Retribution is the greatest driving force for Tony, not necessarily justice.
Tony isn't judge, jury, and executioner. What happened to if we don't follow the law we're no better than the bad guys? He had every right to be angry, but he did not have the right to beat the shit out of Steve and attempt to murder Bucky. Full stop. If the shoe was on the other foot and Tony had been brainwashed to murder people against his will would you be ok with him being killed for that? I don't think so.
@Snehil Shrey @versena I think you two don't understand, I never said it was ok. I like Tony as a character, and I like the direction his story is going. I'm just telling you that to Tony it doesn't matter that he's wrong morally or legally. It's retribution, he never got to say goodbye and now all his hatred that he against himself for never saying that he loves his father or saying that he'll miss his mom is now being redirected to Bucky. It's a beautiful and bittersweet moment for Tony, remember that at the beginning of Iron Man 3 he was trying to say goodbye to his parents, he was getting over it. Then the whole fiasco happened, now all those wounds he barely closed just got ripped open and everything has been pulled out. Tony's got no real emotional support, his whole cool character charade has forced him into isolation, now he's a cornered animal so to speak. Emotionally he's trying everything to justify himself and come out on top. The only way to do this is through blaming Bucky, Bucky as in Cap's friend has become a scapegoat, while Winter Soldier did pull the trigger, to Tony these two are one and the same.
@Snehil Shrey Inderectly because you sold missiles isn't exactly the same as indirectly by actually killing them with your own hands but being the tool for someone else... You know if a hitman killed somebody you know technically he'd also be a tool and the person who paid him is the worst but you still feel against the hitman. I doubt most people'd feel as strong against the gun company (even if there is also a part of responsibility from them considering they do contribute to the death tolls and know it).
Snehil Shrey you make a good point Bucky was a weapon like Tony's missiles but the only difference is that Bucky is a living person The question really is "Are Buckys assassinations justified?" I mean I know he didn't mean to but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that a Bucky is free to go but he was sort "exiled" to live in Wakanda and stuff so it's cool
+billygoatideas I'm currently in film school at the moment. I've had Westworld recommended to me by multiple people. Haven't watch it yet you know how it goes. There's a million films and a million tv shows I need to watch.
Tbh i always thought caps arc resembled america as a whole. First he was this scrappy, moral, fight for whats right above all else person. But as things went on, he began to do things less for the good of others and more what he thought was best. This sorta ended with him split up between someone who wants to be this symbol of justice, but also someone who is too flawed to be able to take that title because of the choices he made. But idk i just watch the movies
I disagree. I think that even if it were a stranger in Bucky's place, Steve would have done the exact same thing. He wasn't protecting Bucky only because he was his best friend, it was because Bucky was a man who had been forced to do awful things against his will and was left holding the blame. When Steve tried to reason with Team Iron Man and warn them that Bucky's actions weren't his own, they all brushed him aside (except for Widow - good on you Nat). It wasn't as if Steve was asking them to let Bucky escape either - he straight-up said he himself should be the one to bring him in, because it would reduce unnecessary casualties by a wide margin. And again I reiterate, _Bucky didn't have a choice in any of this._ Sure, Steve could have told Tony his suspicions that Bucky was likely the one who killed Howard and Maria. But as we the collective Internet have been roasting a certain half-Celestial over lashing out at the wrong time, this is hypocrisy at best, illogical at worst. Bucky had killed many people while under Zemo's control in _Civil War_ and Tony barely batted an eye. But as soon as it's _his_ parents then he suddenly has the right to make Bucky answer for it? Get in line, Tony.
I disagree. Painting one side as better than the other is very disengenous. What the film showed is that you cant solve all problems by fighting/passion. Its a human thing to do. Once it gets personal, we make choices that we wouldnt normally make.
I didn't paint one side better than the other. The whole point of _Civil War_ is that both sides are right about some things, and wrong about others. At the end of the day though, I simply can't get behind Tony and his belief that signing a UN-written agreement would solve more problems than it would create. I still think he makes a lot of good points though. Let me put it this way. Tony does not get to claim his personal justice on Bucky just cause he has the tech and firepower to do so, the very same way he doesn't get to decide for the whole world that Ultron is what's best for them. Just thirty-six hours prior he was perfectly willing to put Bucky into "an American psych-centre, instead of a Wakandan prison" because he was personally removed from the situation. Tony knows what the right call is, he's not stupid. He takes action not because he knows what to do at that moment in time, but because he needs to feel some semblance of control in a situation where he doesn't have any. It's why he built all those suits in _Iron Man 3,_ why he was driven into creating Ultron (though Wanda is in part to blame for that), and why he signed the Accords when things started getting out of hand with the Avengers. Tony wants a solution and I respect that, but when he acts out he tends to do more harm than good; not because he's a bad person, but because he often has to make big decisions and that leaves potential for big mistakes. And how about this? If Steve had done nothing to apprehend Bucky in Romania, things would have ended one of two ways: Bucky would have escaped with unnecessary deaths (no Steve to stop him from throwing police officers off the staircase) or he himself would have been killed (the police had orders to shoot on sight, plus T'Challa was going after him already). I don't consider either outcome to be justice, and I'd like to think Team Iron Man doesn't either; like it or not, Steve's interference saved lives on both sides even if he did act against the Accords. Nat may have called it "making things worse" because that's what it looked like to Secretary Ross and the others, but as Steve pointed out, his interference was the only reason Bucky didn't end up in front of the business end of a gun. It actually highlights one of the biggest overarching problems with the Accords - Ross and the UN will see what they want to see, and even the best outcome possible is regarded as a bad one if they weren't the ones to give the order. It's not about doing what's right at all, it's about trying to appear in control, and that's what ultimately stops Steve from joining Tony in their camp. I don't deny that Bucky is dangerous and needs to be put somewhere where he can't hurt himself and others, but Steve never did either. They only ended up on the run because Ross wanted the easy solution, and what gets me is that Tony wasn't playing ball until he discovered Bucky killed his parents. And if Tony's reaction had been to fight Steve due to this revelation, I would have completely understood. Instead, we get this. Steve: "This isn't going to change what happened." Tony: "I don't care. He killed my mom." Do I blame him? No, of course I don't - it's how most people in his position would have reacted. But that doesn't make it rational, or even moral. I think the climactic fight at the end of _Civil War_ ended exactly how it should have. Had Tony killed Bucky, or Steve killed Tony, then it wouldn't have been real justice. People like to make it out as if Steve completely refused to listen to reason throughout the movie, and that his sole intent was to protect Bucky no matter the cost. But that's a very skewed, very reductive way of looking at it, and given the objective facts I don't think that's true at all. Certainly, part of it is Steve wanting to save his best friend, but why should that be held against him, considering everything else I mentioned above? It astounds me that people would call Steve selfish when he's devoted his life to helping others, or uncompromising when he's made every effort to consider the other side even when his own words fall on deaf ears. I'd follow Steve to the end of the line, not out of blind devotion, but because he fully and unflinchingly embodies what Sharon Carter said in _Civil War._ "Compromise where you can. Where you can't, don't. Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right. Even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye, and say 'No, you move'." Even if the world is right to fear Bucky, it doesn't change the fact that they're wrong about him, or that they'd sooner kill a man to ease their own minds than fight for his chance to reclaim his humanity. And like I said, Steve would have done no less if it were a stranger in the same position, because that's just who he is. It doesn't matter if it's HYDRA he has to stop or his own fellow Avengers - Captain America does not stand idly by and allow injustice to prevail.
@@StormyKopaAMVs I dont agree. The real purpose of the movie is to expose this mindset. Theres this constant theme in the movie of people telling others to move. The movie exposes this ideology. Compromise is necessary. We need to stop fighting our way through problems. Both sides refused to compromise and thats the problem. Also, another theme of the movie is to control our passion, which makes us make stupid decisions. Once Black Panther understood Baron Zemo was the real person who killed his father and that he did this so the Avengers could fight each other for something they indirectly did to him, it all makes sense. The movie also exposes the idea of revenge and instead replaces it with justice. Civil War is a movie that is supposed to inform the audience of the problems with our country but instead people see it as a movie where super heroes fight(most anyway). Out of passion, both "heros" almost kill each other. Passion trumps morals. Steve letting go of the captain america persona was him realizing he failed to "be a good man". For me, the movie had a few problems. The villain was kinda lame, they were joking in the big fight when this should be a serious matter. But I really liked the ending. When Tony finds out Bucky killed his parents, I remember feeling the same way Tony did. I was like, WTF? And then when I saw Bucky trying to rip his arc reactor off at one point, my heart sank even more. The movie has a lot of nuance. But in Civil War, it shows that Cap does have a dark side. Hes not a righteous, perfect person, hes like everyone else. But isnt that why we love Marvel characters? Steve is one of my favorite characters. And so is Tony. But that doesnt change the fact Steve messed up too
Compromise is necessary, yes, but the point is to know when it's right to do so and when it isn't. Compromising on difficult decisions is easy because it pushes the root of the problem aside and gives people false reassurance that it has been resolved. It takes real grit to stand up to a majority of people and tell them they're wrong, because you know the truth and will defend it to death if that's what it takes. Captain America is a man of conviction and principle, and I expected no less from him when things started going bad. _That_ was the point of Sharon's words (originally spoken by Steve's mother in the comics), not the idea that one should be a stubborn jackass when there are personal stakes on the line. The reason I still maintain that Steve was right not to compromise on Bucky is because Secretary Ross has made it clear that he was the wrong person to trust, not just regarding Bucky but the Avengers' affairs as a whole (if the logical holes in his first conversation with the Avengers wasn't indication enough). Hypothetically speaking, had the Avengers attempted a more private form of intervention regarding Bucky, I think Steve would have been a lot more cooperative because he trusts them to seek a proper solution, not just compromise for the sake of complacency. I also agree that controlling one's passion is important, which is why I criticized Tony's decision at the end of the movie. If his reaction had been to fight Steve, not Bucky, it would have been more understandable. Steve _was_ wrong not to tell him about his parents in the two years or so he had known HYDRA orchestrated their deaths, but so was Tony for trying to kill Bucky over something he knew Bucky didn't want to do and would never have done of his own free will. I think this is something we both get, and as you said T'Challa was a much better example of how one handles justice correctly. It's also worth noting that neither Steve nor Bucky were trying to kill Tony, they only fought to destroy his arc reactor because it would put him out of commission and hopefully give him time to cool down. I think for me, the heartbreaking moment was right before the fight ended, when Tony threw his hands in front of his face because he genuinely believed that Steve was about to kill him. That reaction was obviously not lost on Steve, and it said more than any amount of words could. The trust was gone, and really it was both their faults because they revealed a darkness that went against everything they believed about one other. I don't just see _Civil War_ as a movie about superheroes fighting each other. It's rare to see a cinematic event invoke such division among fans and bring out lengthy conversations about ideals and how one should conduct themselves in a world that looks not unlike the one we live in ourselves. Unfortunately, the majority of these conversations end up being Team Cap/Team Iron Man pissing contests, something I'm not particularly interested in. I'm glad we were able to have this back and forth though - even if I side with Cap at the end of the day, I think you bring up some good points and am happy you're one of the people who have given this serious thought. I'm still of the opinion, however, that the only thing Steve did wrong was keep his secret from Tony (though I'm not underselling the fact that it was a really, _really_ shitty thing to do), and that protecting Bucky from the UN is not indicative of any sort of "corruption". It's why he never wavered in his stance on the Accords, even when he apologized to Tony and admitted that he had only been sparing himself. Oh, and as a caveat, I'd like to recall Dr. Erskine's words to Steve the night before he received the supersoldier serum. Steve has never been perfect, nor will he ever be. But he strives to be a good man and that supercedes all else, including the mantle of Captain America. If that meant he had to put down the shield and walk away knowing that he bought Bucky a chance at redemption, then so be it. How he and Tony are going to work out the personal matter of "sorry I didn't tell you who killed your parents"...well, I suppose we'll see, because I don't think an apology letter is enough to fix the amount of damage Steve has done. Here's hoping _Avengers 4_ will take the time to properly resolve this, hmm?
I disagree that Steve would do what he did in Civil War for someone other than Bucky. The entire film's plot revolved around Steve fiercely protecting Bucky; the film went out of its way by showing Steve's feelings for the last living link to his own time (Peggy dies in the film leaving only Bucky). Steve's "Captain America" persona crumbles before Bucky and his desperate need to "have" him (not necessarily in a shipping sort of way but more like the last living remnant of his old life).
Eh I don't think what he did with Bucky was necessarily wrong because it was an unwinnable situation. Whatever friend he chose, he would have to betray the other.
As you said yourself, Bucky has been brainwashed and his memories had been wiped multiple times, he obviously can not held responsible for the actions of the winter soldier. Whether the winter soldier killed Tonys parents or not, Bucky Barnes was at the time not accountable for his actions. Tony feeling betrayed because Cap protected Bucky is in that regard irrational and Cap is still on the right. You could only argue that cap should have Bucky brought in, because the judge or jury would have to declare him innocent the moment the brainwashing is brought up, but he might lack actual evidence for it. However to reiterate my previous point, Tony is wrong in this case and he shouldn't be part of this case anyway because he is affected and thus compromised.
I dont think that Bucky deserves a punishment because is not like he had a choice, but i do thing that Tony had the right to know, and if Steve had told him before the civil war, them their fight in the end of the movie could had been avoided
If he would have told tony he would still try to kill him no matter what he said or did that's just tony and if he wouldn't have told him and wouldn't have figured out they wouldn't have fought and broke the team cause at the end u can see how they finally became friends again and were gonna team up but then that guy showed him the video making tony want to kill bucky no matter what
Neat Idea, but Cap didn't just stick with his oldest friend over his new friends and betraying them in them in process. Cap knew bucky was manipulated beyond his own control. Cap tried to mediate the situation between Tony and Bucky the best he could knowing Tony wouldn't be able to handle the truth and his emotion. Bucky was a victim just as much as Tony.
Very good start; however, you missed the landing. Cap is a stoic character. His course never really changed. His environment/society did, which gives the perception he fell.
Hi Everyone. A while ago I saw this great video on Captain America analyzing his character. It talked about how he is "always sad" and if he stopped fighting he "wouldn't know what to do with himself", it was an excellent video and i want to see it again but cant find it. Does anybody know where it is? Thanks all and have a great day!
"Corruption" is not a word you associate with Captain America. Let us be clear, from the moment the accords were presented it was never a question of morality, it was a question of government subjugation perpetuated by a sense of underserved guilt. Everything that porn stash wearing Colonel presented as, clear throat, "evidence", were Cap and his allies cleaning up the mistakes of the government and more importantly Tony Stark. Whom in his arrogance thought he could enforce these bogus ideals with his guilt as the only real reason for their validation. Tony has never liked government intervention or involvement since his first film and his change of heart was only due to him realizing that thinking he is always right lead to that woman's son death. And the irony is still missed on him when he tries to use this tragedy that he was responsible for to guilt trip the others into siding with him. The man never even so much as apologized to Scarlett for her brother's death. In between dealing with Loki because of the government's tampering with the cube to make weaponry, dealing with Tony's creation of Ultron, putting down a corrupted SHIELD with flight technology designed once again by you guessed it, Tony Stark, the only thing Cap is guilty of is a sense of justice and righteousness so strong that he will fight his own allies. That is not "corruption", that is conviction.
I would argue cap didn’t know about Bucky killing Tony’s parents in age of ultron cap was still looking for Bucky but in the Zola scene he says simply accidents happen far as cap knew hydra killed them in a car accident
I just think that in Civil War there was no real right answer. The Sokovia Accords are abstract rules. With General Ross in charge, they become a sword that will destroy anyone that does not agree with the Accords. Ross gets off on his power and will not tolerate a challenge to it. At the end of the day, Steve cares about people and doing the right thing. Letting Bucky be killed without knowing what really happened was not something he will allow. If a friend is being hunted by everyone in the world with intent to kill him or her, then Steve Rogers will battle the world. I think that if the friend turn out to be guilty, then he will bring them in himself. If they are innocent, Steve Rogers will support them with everything that he got. Bucky was innocent. I think that if Tony Stark was in the same situation, Steve Rogers will go against anyone, even Bucky. There are situations when there no easy answer. That is life.
+Filmaholics go watch Lessons From The Screenplay's Anatomy of the Antagonist. A great video done much better than I ever could that analyzes the Joker from The Dark Knight.
He’s not corrupt. In the case of the army/ government/ shield/ hydra His eyes have been opened. Same integrity. Same values. In the case of Bucky/ Tony- as pissed off as I was about Tony being lied to and getting ganged up on after a COMPLETE valid and understandable fit of rage, Cap would never let anyone hurt Bucky especially for something he couldn’t help doing. That does nothing for Tony and you can’t blame the man for hating them both but it doesn’t make Cap ‘wrong’ or corrupt. It’s just a fucked up situation all around. I do wish he had let Tony beat Buck’s ass though lol. He just watched someone murder his patents. His reaction was 100% understandable and not trusting Cap afterward was as well. Cap is still Cap though.
Except when he made that choice in the movie mate, he didn't even know Bucky was part of the quation. He decided to NOT sign before King T'Chaka was even killed. Bucky played ZERO parts in the decision. It was made based on the "You Move' speech at the funeral. It was only after the King was killed, he went to Germany and then saw death squads with shoot to kill order sent to kill bucky based on ONE fuzzy photograph (which turned out to be false) did he step in. Nicely done video btw, i just think your assessment takes a wrong turn there.
Thank you. I hate how people think Steve decided against the Accords *because* of Bucky, when really he played no role in it. Steve rejected them before Bucky even appeared, and then he rejected them again after he was told if he signed Bucky would be taken back to the US. Once he heard about Wanda's treatment he was fully against them again, so the narrative that he chose Bucky over the Accords is patently and demonstrably false.
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I actually requested. Anubh bhatia
The worst thing Steve Rogers has done was that second post credit scene in spiderman homecoming..
You're joking, right? That was hilarious as fuck, man! That was great.
Pure evil.
You just need to be patient!
The best thing Steve Rogers has done was that post credit scene in Spider-Man Homecoming.
I fixed your comment for you.
@@salvadorlucero1034 ua-cam.com/video/f4kEfq2sDv8/v-deo.html
There is an aspect of Steve Rogers that when looked at closely I think brings a bit of darkness to his character. I realized this during a scene in Avengers: Age of Ultron. When Scarlet Witch is giving The Avengers visions of their worst fears, Captain America's is of a post war celebration surrounded by his friends from the 40s. This can be interpreted as him being scared of losing them, but he already has, so what is there to be afraid of? I took it as him fearing the end of the "war". Not WWII necessarily, but fighting an enemy in general. Steve is a soldier first and foremost, so when the battle is won what is there for him to do? Certainly not settle down.
You may think this one scene doesn't prove that and there was a lot of other stuff going on among this and the other visions, so it's understandable if that wasn't picked up on. Here are some other examples: After the events of The Avengers, Captain America immediately joined S.H.I.E.L.D. to keep fighting for a cause he believed in (protecting people). In Civil War, he fought against Tony to stop the Sokovia Accords from being passed and to save Bucky because he was framed. Even before the super soldier serum, he picked a fight with the guy in the movie theater mocking the newsreel.
Now these all may be noble causes, but my point is Steve Rogers is always looking for something to fight for and while his goal may be to end the "war" in doing so, deep down he knows that he has no purpose during peacetime. It makes his character more complicated and it's something I wish they would spend a little more time looking at.
That's a long ramble so I apologize for all of that. I just thought it was related to the things you were talking about in your video. Well written as always. You picked out great clips to highlight your points. A tiny criticism I have is that the audio of the clips is much lower than your voice and when you pause for a section of dialogue to be heard it's pretty quiet. Great video nonetheless!
+Sean Barlow thank you for the comment! And thank you for the constructive criticism!
I think it was actually a vision that showed him what he wanted, which was Peggy, even after all that time. But if you remember she disappears and he is left standing alone. Captains America biggest drive and fear and being alone. Thats why he puts friends over morality and frankly who wouldnt, thats why I think he is the most human of the Avengers together with Tony, thats why the battle at the end of Civil War was devastating.
Sean Barlow He thrives when he is in conflict. He also has a Mesia complex.
Sean Barlow
True, but understand Peggy was the one that got him out of that dream, that encouraged him to find Bucky’s captured unit and planted the seeds of shutting down a corrupt SHIELD. She was always his compass and when she’s gone in Civil War, he truly was lost.
Damn.
That part when Steve jumps on the grenade gets me every time...
Me too
I don't understand how you see the choice Cap had to make as somehow being a corruption of him. He chose to be loyal to the friend he had since childhood, over the friend who was ready to sell him out to the government. The collapse of SHIELD showed Cap that government shouldn't be trusted blindly, as he and his friend Nick Fury had done (even though Nick knew some of what was going on, the infiltration by Hydra caught him by surprise, too). The corruption of Cap would have been him siding with Tony regarding the Sokovia Accords.
agree 100%. besides, if there was ever a person not to take orders from it's Ross, that man only cares about himself.
I wrote a large comment about this. The biggest reason why Tyler Mowery believes it's corruption is because Tyler has taken a TON of the movies out of context.
YES!
I disagree. What makes Marvel characters so compelling is how flawed and human they are. Either decision Steve would make would end up in him losing someone. When Cap loses Bucky, thats probably the lowest point in his life(Infinity War).
Also, I can understand why Cap doesnt really think of Tony as a friend because of their strained relationship.
When Tony tells Cap that he thought they were friends too, it shows how Tony's problems with his dad fueled his arrogance and he socialized with Cap in the way he knew how which is wrong but is a trauma that shapes the character. Its kinda sad.
I know alot of people like to dismiss the classic paragon-type heroes (do-gooders who inspire others) as cheesy, naive, and boring, but not only does the MCU Captain America films make them work, but Civil War even shows how these character types can actually be interestingly dangerous.
Steve is still fighting for what he believes is good and right no matter what, but the conflict kicks in when it's debatable whether what he's doing is right which turns his determination into stubbornness. Everyone on his side is on his side because he inspires them while everyone against him realizes that he will never give up on what is "right" and thus know trying to convince him is pointless and he needs to be stopped by more forceful means.
There's a reason "Civil War" is a Captain America movie and not just Avengers 2.5
Trope Talks?
It's a Captain America movie because it was supposed to be mostly about him at first. Then they realized they had to involve more of the other characters and especially Tony to really do justice to Civil War which is why it feels strangely like another Avengers movie with a very strong arc for Iron Man too...
TheKersey475 but captain America was completely right in civil war, the government UN is completely corrupted, search up.
The UN basically ignored a child porn enslaving ring in Haiti for a decade run by their men, to make them seem better.
If the government wasn’t corrupted (a fantasy government) then yea, cap would be wrong, but then being super weapons for the government is not a good thing. It’s just how it is.
@@matiidesign That's the worst argument possible... First of all the UN is no government. The UN has allowed bad things to happen it's true, and there is corruption inside like in any big entity, but it's still the world's representatives and carrefully chosen scandals like this hide the wider truth that without the UN there would be no international community and a lot more war between powerful countries.
The idea that one small group of vigilantes can stay uncorrupted and should be unchecked by any government or international authority and not be bent by law is the real fantasy here.
@EB I’m gonna have to disagree with you on that, EB.
The reason there is less war has more to do with global market interdependence and a ascendant United States than a powerless confederation like the UN.
I mean the former Secretary General Kofi Annan not only was the mastermind behind the Oil-for-Food Scandal which resulted in the deaths of 1.5 million people, at which 1/5 were children under the age of 5, but was complicit in the Rwandan genocides by outing confidential sources to the government and refusing to back a general who asked for assistance in preventing it.
Not to mention the general corruption, vote buying, political grandstanding, war crimes committed by peacekeepers and general malaise that makes a mockery of their charter and the millions who died in order to make such an organization possible.
I want to be like captain america someday not a perfect soldier but a good man
cedric alcoseba me too man
you mean T’Challa then. He’s the good man of the MCU. Steve’s just the good soldier
Kaizer-Man nah bro, we mean Steve Rogers🤔
Talking Box@ Who's 'we'. T'Challa is who you wanna be if you're striving to be a good man. If you're striving to be a good soldier, you wanna be Steve Rogers. I mean either way that's invalid, the point of their chars is that they were born good men and all the rest came after.
+Buzz 32123 And where is the one country in the world where Steve Rogers is always welcome? Wakanda, of course, because being a good man himself, T'Challa prefers to associate with other good men such as Steve Rogers.
I think you bring up excellent points, but I ultimately disagree. I don't think Steve acted contrary to his morality just because Bucky was his friend. I think he never believed Bucky would chose to do those things, and turned out to be right. Bucky never fought for the wrong side willingly and Steve was right to save him. Yes, Bucky murdered Tony's parents, but Steve thought he was protecting both Tony and Bucky by not saying anything, as Bucky didn't do that willingly.
Overall, I don't think he made a mistake.
I would consider lying to someone who is supposed to be your friend about the murder of their parents a pretty big mistake
@@wagawagabobo6736 why tell him... no offence but he didnt find out until years after it happened and even than he didnt know Bucky was the one who did it he just knows it was an assassination.
@@irontemplar6222 Thank you. I think people missed the part when Steve said "I didn't know it was him." They keep going back to Zola, who in the context of the story only alluded to the Starks being assassinated and then preceded to say that he was stalling Cap and Widow. Plus Bucky wasn't the only Winter Soldier, there were literally 5 others along with anyone else in hydra that could have done it.
@@YuYu_007. not to mention the winter soldier was scrubbed from the record and hence was a "ghost" basicly the worst case is that cap got access to the files and it showed that the Starks died in an assassination instead of a car crash. but honestly why tell Tony you can argue he has a right to know, but in all honesty their are 3 big things when it comes to that.
1. He already thinks they died in a car crash and has come to terms with it. why reopen old wounds when their is nothing he could do about it (from caps perspective)
2. Tony is know to be obsessive about things and would likely drive himself into the earth on a revenge quest which is what happens in the movie
3. Cap learned this from Zemo… your source of information isn't exactly the most trustworthy.
Because Bucky was brainwashed means he shouldn't have to answer for his crimes? I mean people who hear voices commit crimes and guess what, they've lost their privilege to be free
"Civil War" has so many compelling themes...it shows why this franchise is thriving- great acting, great writing, and interesting themes...
To everyone saying that Tony's reaction is proof why Cap didn't tell him, I hope you can understand the difference between a friend telling you something and you discovering from another source that something bad happened and your friend didnt tell you. Imagine if Cap had told Tony BEFORE Tony and Bucky ended up in the same room. Imagine if he had controlled the narrative and Tony had time to process that, really, none of it was Bucky's fault.
Tony knew that it wasn't Bucky's fault anyways? He chose to blame the gun ( Bucky) instead of the one pulling the trigger (Hydra). Tony is smart enough to know this isn't he? Even if Steve should have told him sooner, Tony shouldn't reCt by trying to kill Bucky (who is actually a victim that has been used this whole time)
All Rogers knew was that, somehow, HYDRA was probably responsible for the Stark's deaths.
He learned it in Winter Soldier, along with Natasha, through a quick slideshow when Zola was intentionally delaying them.
Why doesn't anyone talk about Natasha knowing? She has the most information out of everyone. She knew the Winter Soldier existed all along. She has a closer relationship with Tony than Rogers does.
Captain America is like batman,superman and wonder woman combine
1. Has a golden heart like superman
2.is human and just as bada@$ like batman
3.has the warrior's attitude and kills people if he had to like wonder woman
This video made me truly realise that "The First Avenger", "The Winter Soldier" and "Civil War" are indeed a trilogy, and a pretty solid one. And I guess it's Marvel's only trilogy, since "Iron Man" doesn't have a continuous arc and "Thor" probably won't have. Great video.
Thor kinda did have continuous story... But it revolves around his bond with Loki.
And Iron Man too! Its a perfect Arc.
@@work3372 But his arc is also highly included in avengers movies and in civil wa
You've oversimplified a lot of these movies to make these points, and sorry, though parts of your premise are correct, you're really missing the larger mark here.
I think your second premise for Cap's defining characteristics is way off, it's not just black and white. There is so much more subtlety and nuance to the good vs evil of First Avenger, you just aren't seeing it because you have oversimplified the movie. You could say it was black and white if nobody from the German side was a good guy, if everyone from the nazi side was evil. Except that the very person who gives Steve his powers, Dr. Erskine, is a defector. He MADE the Red Skull, and he changes sides. He was on the "bad" side, but he switches. Not only that, but at the beginning of the film, the very first time they meet, Erskine asks Rogers if he wants to kill nazis, and Steve says "I don't want to kill anyone. I don't like bullies; I don't care where they're from." The entire POINT of this is that it isn't a black and white issue for him when other people would see it as "nazis vs captain america." Yes, it's about what is right, but that doesn't mean it's a black and white scenario.
Then with Winter Soldier. You're forgetting who he stands by for the entire movie, the one person who has his back no matter what. Black Widow. Black Widow is a note throughout the whole film of espionage and behaviour that goes against the black and white narrative, long before WS is revealed to be Bucky. But Cap doesn't refuse to work with BW. Yes, they disagree on many things, but Cap isn't so black and white that he refuses to speak to her or fight with her. Nor with Fury, for that matter, when Fury presents a chillingly terrifying R&D project that Cap can't live with. He doesn't disrespect Fury, he doesn't black and white it, he simply presents his principles for what is just and what is wrong. The whole movie doesn't change when Bucky is revealed, it's just the last piece of the puzzle for the plotline slipping into place. Now everything has a clarity to it that was shrouded before. And at the end, with Black Widow releasing the documents to the world, you get an even bigger look into how Cap and Widow have affected each other, and a reminder that Cap has stood by her. He refuses to fight people all the way through the movie, not just Bucky, but when it comes to violence and terror, he does what he has to in order to save the world. I mean, you might not remember, but I'm pretty sure he also breaks Bucky's arm at one point.
And then in Civil War you have removed context and oversimplified even more. Cap stands up against the accords before Bucky is ever an issue. Way before. When Bucky resurfaces, Cap is already in prime position to stand up against the accords when his friend needs him. He doesn't pick between Bucky and Stark, he doesn't finally enter the grey world of Bucky, he's already a multifaceted character who makes difficult choices. And then you edit the "Did you know?" scene for your own purposes. You removed Caps' initial answer to Stark: "I didn't know it was him." Cap knew that the Starks died horribly, and spared him that pain, letting him think it was just a car crash, as we see from the rest of the film. But when Stark asks Cap not to bullshit him, his previous answer isn't a lie. He didn't know it was Bucky, he wasn't protecting his friend. But he did know their deaths were an assassination, they didn't die from the crash.
Yes, Steve Rogers makes mistakes (you can see that easily from the first Avengers movie without having to edit around the parts you don't like. He clashes with people on the same side and again in Ultron, he should know that Scarlet Witch can mess with his head but he forgets his training and goes in unprepared, then gets walloped by her. But he isn't some tainted symbol, like you present. He's a fiercely principled man who stands up for what he believes in, and sometimes he makes mistakes.
Yes! Thank you, I 100% agree with you.
@Zarakem1 With Rey Mustayne or me?
+EternalAzhrei I strongly agree with everything you said, and in addition it was Tony who made all of the mistakes of any consequence, starting with the Sokovia Accords. I have to sincerely question his mental stability because of his tendency to react irrationally in extreme and sometimes dangerous ways. I'm referring to the events of _Civil War_ but this also applies to his reaction to his vision in _Age of Ultron_ , where this whole mess really started. In that movie, watch Tony's reaction to the others questioning him about Ultron when they found out. What does that sarcastic-looking chuckling he did when they warned him of the dangers mean? There are times when he is borderline or maybe even full-out insane, and this helps inform us concerning his actions and especially his reactions in _Civil War_ . It sure looks as though Steve withheld information about the past that no one else needed to know for good reason.
Thank you for agreeing.
Also, it's true. You're right to question Stark's mental stability, but probably more his emotional stability. They show in Iron Man 3 that he has some level of PTSD after going through the wormhole in the first Avengers movie. He's not insane though, he's just got different motivations form guys like Cap and Thor. Cap is used to defending the principle of the matter, like in WWII, and Thor is used to rule of the gods. Stark, however, is used to pushing the envelope in science and technology in order to resolve the issues he finds. It's just the way he thinks. So when he hears Cap and Thor telling him off, it seems to him like all the people who nay-say him while he's off fixing problems. So he laughs at his friends when they remind him of the government in Iron Man 2 when they tried to control his suits.
On the topic of Steve withholding information though, when he sends the package to Tony he says in a letter that he thought he was sparing Tony but can see that he was really sparing himself. So it's not really about "no one needs to know" form that, it's more about character motivation. Remember, Steve is the one who scolded Fury for compartmentalization during Winter Soldier. He's not about hiding things, he's about not hurting his friends.
Meanwhile Tony is admittedly going through a very emotional roller coaster the whole way through Civil War and a little bit in Ultron too; he never really gets time for a break like Steve does. Stark opens on his parents the last time he saw them, goes to meeting the lady whose son died in Sokovia, and then goes straight into the accords and the rift in the team that he built. He tries to make peace with Steve and then has the secretary of defense breathing down his neck, steels himself as much as possible for the fight at the airport where one of his closest friends nearly dies, and finally, after finding out there is more at stake and attempting peace one last time he's brought full circle to his dead parents, only this time, he actually sees it happen. He's there. With all the life changes that he's been through from Iron Man 1 until that point, (surviving a terrorist kidnapping, reshaping his life, almost dying because of paladium poisoning, being targeted by explosive terrorists trying to kill the president who have a personal grudge against him, almost dying in outer space, being responsible for Ultron, and more) it's really no surprise that he struggles with his past, and especially his parents. It's an understandable reaction, a very HUMAN reaction, and despite his suit, Stark is not superhuman.
You, @EternalAzhrei
Personally, I think Steve Rogers places Bucky above everyone else due to them having been childhood friends. The two of them have a strong bond. Bucky is Steve's only real weakness; he'd do anything for Bucky which includes going against the UN and the other Avengers. It is possible that since Bucky is the only living link to Steve's past he is fiercely protective of him.
He didnt do it because theyre friends, he did it because hes innocent
@@TeslaHaxz Yeah any good hero would do the same even if bucky was not his friend
I think actually Captain America was and is the symbol of goodness and justice however, beneath that is Steve Rogers the kid from brooklyn where bucky was the only person he had left. He even says it in civil war to scarlett witch, after crossbones blows himself up.
I think people are missing the point. For Steve Rogers, the ending of The First Avenger, I think, created a very serious problem for the character. He thought he was going to die but he didnt. He just froze.
He's in this state where the war is over and they won but he never got closure for it. Therefore, he's always in this weird spot where he's always fighting. For him, the war never ends.
In Age of Ultron, its revealed that Cap really doesnt like the modern age. Where he has no friends, where Peggy is not around, where there is no closure for the war like a normal person.
Edit: I think all Steve wanted was a normal life. The freezing is both literal and metaphorical. When a man like Steve who is from the 40's where the values are so black and white and he gets thrusted into a cultural that believes in more nuance, a man like him suffers.
The world hasnt changed. The perspectives have. And when Steve is stuck in a world like this, it pressures the character.
Steve made the right call. Tony knew just like Cap that Bucky wasn't in control of himself when he killed Tony's parents. But Tony's immature, and he reacts as well as could have been expected. Cap was trying to avoid a needless fight because Bucky did nothing wrong, but Tony couldn't handle that.
This comment section is amazing. Defending Steve Rogers with straight up FACTS. And defending him in Civil War 👌🏻
You guys are true #TeamCap
Cap always belive , bucky did all did under the influence of hydra. Not by his choice. And the in civil war his knew the agenda of perticular group will change as per time under the influce of Ross. Thats why he didn't sign the contract about work under trity. He is still man of words not influence and thats what imp.
@Tyler Mowery
Though I Love the way you analyze films... I am in high disagreement on this one... of course Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.... But what I think here, is that you are not seeing the full picture of Steve Rogers here... CAP IS STILL DOING THE RIGHT THING...
1. COZ HE REALLY BELIEVES THAT SIGNING THE SOKOVIA ACCORDS WILL JUST SHIFT THE BLAME...
2. COZ HE IS THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN AND SHOULD SAVE THE INNOCENT MAN BUCKY BARNES...
The only mIstake Cap made was what he admitted himself in the Letter to Tony at the end of the film.
That he shouldn't have kept that secret from Tony, coz he thought that he was Saving Tony from the pain... but he was just saving himself from the pain and fear of consequences against Bucky... who has already been framed.
So is Steve Rogers a corrupted symbol of Goodness... I Don't Think so.
P.S.: I was the first one to dislike the video..
I have now liked it, coz you did a good job buddy
haha I enjoy disagreement! thank you for enjoying my videos. I would disagree still, but I think it's an interesting discussion
@@TylerMowery The Captain America movies also prove that those in power can't be trusted or aren't always in the best place to make decisions.
The First Avenger shows that Steve made the better call with the rescue of the prisoners. This action would be banned by the Sokovia accords.
The Avengers shows the council chose to nuke New York. This would not have closed the portal or taken out the chitauri army. The portal could only be closed with the scepter (Something that was only discovered because there was a team of people there) and the rest of the chitauri were not in range of the nuke if it had been dropped on New York. The only reason that wasn't a genocide of New York was because Tony could make the call to save everyone (He would not have been able to with the Sokovia Accords). The Avengers also would not have been there at all if it was up to the council so no one would learn how to close the portal (and Loki would not have been separated from the scepter if they did).
The Winter Soldier shows that an organization built on good intentions (S. H. I. E. L. D) can be corrupted by those with ill will.
Black Panther shows that the accords can be abused as T'challa and his group were able to go about their actions in Korea without repercussions.
In the case of Age of Ultron the movies don't mention preventative measures for A. I.s but Agents of shield does. The accords made it illegal to make Artificial Intelligence. This measure is very case specific. This would have stopped Ultron's creation. However, if it was not an avenger but a villain that created Ultron, the villain would not have cared about this law. The avengers would not have been able to save the planet in time if this was the case because they would have had to wait for the go ahead. Keep in mind that the go ahead would not have been possible because the avengers and those overseeing them would not have been able to communicate because of Ultron's technopathic ability.
If the avengers had waited for the accords to kick in during infinity wars than Thanos would have had virtually no opposition.
All three of Cap's movies showed him leaving an organization he believed in the most.
1. Military
2. Shield
3. Avengers
I agree with cap. He made the right choice not poking the iron bear too much. He probably would have told Tony later when everything had cooled down. Plus, he is completely correct to not trust the EU. 'Merica!
Hardly corrupted, just humanized and humanized heroes are the best kind.
There are a lot of things I learned from Captain America, particularly in the comics and in Heroes Return. One memorial part I learned was when the Sons of Hydra voiced out their dissatisfaction on how their country, their nation are 'polluted' by people from different races and cultures, making their once proud country nothing like they used to be. Captain America responded by telling the Sons of Hydra that the world is made of different colors and that what makes it beautiful.
It was a simple line from the comics but I hold it in my heart till this day.
“And what he says before that, I think IS true… that, ‘I didn’t know it was him.' " - Writers of the film
Tony says "Don't bullshit me, Rogers" not because Steve is lying, but because Steve is using that deniability to avoid giving Tony an answer (did he know about the murders) in order to save their friendship. That's what Steve finally says "Yes" to, not that he knew Bucky did it.
They also noted that Steve has an emotional blind spot for Bucky (denial), much like most people do for someone they're close to. So, even if Steve did think Bucky was responsible deep down, he never knew for sure and refused to believe it.
In defense of Captain America, how would he bring that up to Tony without being weird and/or combative? “Hey Tony! I just found out my friend murdered your parents, hope you can forgive him because I have to go rescue him from the government because he was framed for the UN bombing, but I know he didn’t do that.” Is it really betrayal, or is it just a case of don’t ask, don’t tell. I wouldn’t have told Tony either, unless he asked me directly.
I loved what you did, I was looking for channels that explored superheroes arcs like this 👍
glad you enjoyed it!
WHY DOES THIS HAVE ONLY 20K VIEWS IT DESERVES SO MUCH MORE
I'll agree for the most part. His hard-on for Bucky caused a LOT of problems....
Ikr? He should've just let an innocent man be gunned down without trial for crimes he committed after having been tortured and brainwashed, or crimes he didn't commit and was framed for. That Captain America, what an asshole.
@@versena how can people possibly side against him? Im convinced they dont actually care, and just like iron man more.
I guess "betrayal" is a strong word..Rogers did keep the fact from Stark about his parent's death but I guess simply because of his love for Bucky. Rogers in 21st century is a man in an ill-fitted suit and Bucky is his only connection to the past. Both Rogers and Bucky are pawns, the difference being Rogers retains his humanity and Bucky was turned into a Human Killing machine. And Rogers and Stark didn't go along too well with each other so...had they been good friends then maybe, yes, it would have been an act of betrayal
+Johnny Liono What good could have come from revealing this information to Tony? Just look at what happened when he learned about it.
Johnny Liono I agree betrayal is too strong a word for this situation Zola told Cap that Hydra was responsible for the death of Tony's parents he doesn't say Bucky did it. It may have been implied but I don't blame Cap for not telling this to Tony if he wasn't certain
rbrtck
It doesn’t what good would come from it, Tony still had the right to know. Steve has no right to keep a secret like that and for so long! If Steve had just told Tony what he knew directly after he found out Tony would have time ro process it, also Bucky wouldn’t have been infront of him. Instead he lied to him for 2 year.
If one of your friends knew they real reason your parents died wouldn’t you want to know?
Betrayal is the reason why Steve Rogers don't deserve the shield that Tony stark's father had created.
+Noah Orakwue If you put all of the clues together--including the relevant dates (corroborated with information that Natasha had given Steve)--then I think it was a very safe assumption that Bucky was who Hydra used to assassinate Tony's parents. One could argue that Steve could have easily missed the date in the article, but he has enhanced memory recall, including visual, so I doubt that he missed anything. Steve still could not have known absolutely for sure that it was Bucky, but he must have been pretty sure about it, or else he might have told Tony what he knew (maybe). This is why he tried to deny that he knew it was Bucky at first, as there is some truth to that, but he figured there was no point because he was pretty sure of it himself anyway, so he just said yes--it's a nuance that he chose to skip, probably because it wouldn't have made a difference to Tony anyway.
I'm not saying that you are wrong, but I think being nearly certain was expressly why Steve chose to withhold that information, at least for the time being. Bucky sure seemed to come around and recognize Steve, and Steve owed it to him to find out what was going on and try to help him get everything straightened out before telling Tony. It was the only way for Steve to do right by both of them. Telling Tony right away would probably have set him on Bucky's trail for revenge. For obvious reasons such as that, Steve wanted to find Bucky himself first, find out what had happened, and then figure out the best course of action for all involved. He was being prudent, given Tony's questionable mental stability. Maybe Tony had his reasons/excuses for this, but it is what it is and can't simply be ignored. Ideally Steve and Tony would have worked together to figure out this mystery, but Steve couldn't trust Tony to keep a level head and be fair to Bucky. And I think that _Civil War_ shows us, like it does at every turn, that Steve did the right thing, judging in this case by Tony's reaction to the information.
I thought this was going to be about how Chris Evans has started speaking out publicly on behalf of the Democratic Party....
Holy fuck, really? I guess captain america is just a character, but thats directly opposed to what steve would do
Cap’s my favourite MCU hero. Obvs, I didn’t like that Steve knew Bucky killed Stark’s parents and didn’t tell him but, let’s be real here, if we were in Cap’s position, we’d keep it a secret too. I mean, it’s his best friend who he though was dead 🙄.
5:44, of course Captain America can fall but the point is that he always gets back up. He apologizes at the end of Civil War, he makes amends, and he keeps fighting for what’s right. “I can do this all day”, God bless!
Steve Rogers is human, even after becoming Captain America he is still a human, albeit at the very top of human potential. That's all he is and I think the purpose of his arc over these movies is to remind the audience of this. He has some amazing powers so its easy to forget but he is still only human.
I can watch this all day
Great evaluation of the video however close ending part of when Captain America kept that dark secret of tony's parent is not so collapsed and in a dark turn as others who agree with that. Yes Captain America symbolizes Honor, Justice, Duty, Protect, and Serve for the weak. However he is still just a human even with that super soldier. Everyone does make mistakes, but as far as I'm concerned Steve Rogers is that ancient soul, that courageous, selfless, honest, trustworthy, noble, and respectable character that I would still rather side on then Iron Man. Even though he kept that unfortunate dark secret of tony's parents. Despite of all that Captain American has done many ways to redeem himself even at times when doesn't really have to. He has that good-friendly nature personality of his consideration of others before him. Now this is just me but in my opinion which I want to say its a fact but this is just my perspective of how I feel, Iron Man can never be close nor better then Captain America when it comes to someone who who does things by the morality, freedom, and rights as he works for the government. While Captain America use to but is only fighting to preserved freedom from self-governers of the world and does not want anyone neither himself to be controlled by government operatives based on their own agenda's. Yes Iron Man is well intellect and is reliable and does fight for good of others, sometimes for himself. But Captain America is that one person where everyone will need the very most then the rest of the group in my opinion.
I don’t think Steve is perfect by any means, as no man is perfect. He makes bad judgement calls just like anyone else, but to say he betrayed Tony by not telling him who killed his parents is a bit of a stretch. I can understand how Tony would *feel* betrayed, but feelings and truth are not one in the same. Put yourself in Steve’s shoes for a moment. You found out after winter soldier that Bucky had killed Tony’s parents. What do you do with this info? Immediately run to Tony? It’s not like Tony was actively seeking to find answers about the death of his parents. Tony was dealing with the trauma of it still as all children who abruptly lose their parents do, but it wasn’t something that was a driving force for his character. In fact more often than not when he does mention his dad it is borderline contemptuous. Steve, understanding all of this about Tony, chose not to share the information with him which isn’t a betrayal but instead is something that he was probably putting off for later when the appropriate moment to bring it up arose. It would be a bit odd for him to rush to Tony and say, “hey guess what I know who killed your parents it was my best friend growing up.” He wasn’t choosing Bucky over Tony, but he was trying to solve the mystery and bring Bucky back first and foremost. Once that goal was accomplished who knows what his next course of action would have been.
Another thing, which is a bit smaller, is that he isn’t fighting Tony and the other heroes in civil war because of Bucky, but because of his morals. He is not acting in grey but in white. He believes it amoral for the world government to be in control of him which is appropriate considering the events in winter soldier where hydra took over shield. He had just witnessed and been a part of corruption of a controlling force. It is now against his nature to follow blindly the orders of some agenda-rich agency. Bucky just so happens to be a part of this. If you replaced Bucky with falcon the exact same movie would have happened without his historical friendship even playing a part. He’s not doing this for Bucky, but because it is the right thing to do.
+Tanner Hinshaw Exactly, and well said. That's why it's a Captain America movie. Steve still stands for the same things he always has, among them freedom and justice.
Steve always wants to do the right thing and stand by his friends. Before, those were one and the same. Now, he has to choose between doing what is right and his best friend. And he now has to choose between friends. The circumstances he is in fracture his character at its very core, and he has to battle within himself to determine his course of action.
+WafflingMean44 No, Steve was doing the right thing in helping Bucky, who was innocent of the crimes Hydra made him commit, as well as the crime he was just framed for. In helping to protect and clear the name of an innocent man, Steve was serving justice while, in contrast, Tony was acting crazy at every turn. Someone made huge mistakes and did he wrong things, alright, but it wasn't Steve, it was Tony.
rbrtck
Tony did crazy things?
+Justin Seagull I'd say that flying into a murderous rage against someone he knew was innocent of the crimes he was forced to commit by Hydra is pretty crazy. Sure, he had a right to be profoundly upset, but he went nuts and stayed that way despite all of the fighting. Creating Ultron using something he didn't understand (the Mind Stone) was also pretty crazy. Sure, sometimes research and development involves risk, but Tony seemed rather cavalier about the risks, even apparently mocking the concerns of the others that something could go wrong (so egotistical he could be considered crazy for this alone). It's too bad that he doesn't pay as much attention to movies as Peter Parker does, or else he might have been more wary of creating a Skynet (from the Terminator franchise) equivalent.
rbrtck
Why do people always blame Tony for Ultron? 3 people were responsable for his creation. And the biggest factor was the mind stone, that was the reason Ultron went crazy. In the movie tou can see that the Ultron Tony *and* Bruce tried to make was for protection, but after the mind stone got into the softwear he went rogue. And no he souldn’t have played with the mind stone but stop blaming him for everything.
And I maan after everything Wanda did they seemed to have forgiven her like 10 minutes of her being nice, but Tony needs to be kept reminded of his faults. In CW they litterly told her to stop thinking about it. She did all the things she did while she was herself. She wasn’t controlled, she isn’t like Bucky or Bruce.
+Justin Seagull For one thing, it was Tony's idea. Sure, others like Bruce bear responsibility, too, and Tony's goal of taking proactive steps to protect the Earth from interplanetary threats like Thanos was well intentioned and not a bad idea in the broadest sense, but like I already pointed out it was his cavalier, irresponsible attitude that puts many people off and makes us question his mental health. Bruce might have gone along with Tony to help protect the Earth from both outside threats and Tony messing around with dangerous things he didn't understand, and although he couldn't prevent disaster in this case, at least Bruce expressed more reservations and caution. It's not as though Tony would have stopped if Bruce hadn't joined him anyway. This is one reason Bruce generally gets a pass from fans, and another is that due to the rivalry between Tony and Steve, especially given the events of _Civil War_ , fans who support either of them against the other often bring up Tony, and inevitably someone will bring up Ultron. Bruce is just not nearly as much a topic of discussion, and even when he is, his more reluctant involvement with Ultron is rarely relevant to the discussion.
As for Wanda, she's more of a secondary character. She and her brother were working for Hydra (or former Hydra), and then at some point they realized they were on the wrong side. She is not generally compared with main characters like Tony or Steve, although those two are frequently compared with one another, with nasty things being said about both by fans of the other. Wanda is just not as important, and her fans aren't all over Steve's case claiming that he "betrayed" Tony and other such nonsense, unlike Tony's fans.
These videos are really good, I'm glad that I stumbled upon your channel this year. Keep going and continue to make your great content.
thanks so much, man!
He didn't tell Tony about his parents death, because a) Bucky was mindcontroled b) Stark would immediately try to kill Bucky c) it was civil war, in war you keep secrets.
He was sitting on that info since Winter Soldier. War is not an excuse. And even tho Bucky was brainwashed, he is still has to receive consequences for his actions.
This is a really great video essay. Thanks for doing the work and putting it out
Cap was always my favorite among the avengers because he's a paladin and I like people who hold onto their believes even in the darkest hours.
His choice to support Bucky was half of what he chose in civil war. He also chose peronal freedom and responsibility over giving them up to a corruptible authority. That was the main dividing factor. Bucky was just a pawn used to further divide him and Tony.
Captain knew hydra killed the starks but wasnt positive or knew the whole story behind the deaths or even if bucky killed them. He even says he didn't know it was him.
It’s not just being loyal to his friends it’s being loyal to his country as a soldier would, after shield was infiltrated by hydra, cap knew to be able to continue fighting for his country, rejecting the Sokovia accords, he would have to work outside of the law. He disobeyed orders in WW11 when he went after Bucky and he’s doing it again because it’s the right thing to do.
Never in my life will I forget the sight of Captain America pulling a cop out of his car and throwing him into traffic -- so that cap could steal his car. They made him a villain in his own movie. --Teresa
I was with this video until you made the mistake of believing that it was Bucky that divided the Avengers in Civil War. It wasn't. Cap chose to protect Bucky, but the Sokovia Accord were an unrelated crock of shit that Cap, in good conscience, could not sign. That is what divided the Avengers, but Cap protecting Bucky is what fragmented them, despite that it is truly Tony to blame for practically this entire course of events. Cap was never corrupted. He's just as much a beacon of righteousness and goodness as he ever was. The world around him became grey.
reaky a human having human emotions who would have thought
To be hoest, Tony was pissed because Bucky killed his mom, he doesn't give a damn about Bucky killing his dad, but only because his mom died at the same time. If his dad was the only one who died that night he might be happy for a while, until he'll realized he did missed and loved him, then he would be mad at Bucky for killing him.
Captain America is a symbol of Goodness .
I see a lot of comments below saying that this video is shit, but I think it's a great video. He's just saying that *NOBODY IS PERFECT*. So please, don't bash this guy too much.
Stan would have loved this.
Heroes with human flaws are
the ❤ and soul of Marvel.
Remember Stan Lee for this.
Loved this video bro. I just felt it.
Hell
He escaped to stop those hundreds of Winter soldiers
thats why i like cap. loyal to his friend to the end. id go the same road for my best friend so
I really love your video it's perfect to tell Captain America's story
I can't say that all those things Cap has done are necessarily flaws just decisions that he believes is right and I 100% agree with what he does. I would say the one actually flawed thing he did was not tell Tony about how Bucky killed his parents. And he even says how it was wrong as that he was only sparring himself with the mail he left Tony. Cap is not perfect but he is human and he is as perfect as he could be with one big flawed decision that he regrets.
I thought this was going to go deeper into the simpleness and representation and shallow justice system, but its kind of a big ol summary of cap.
Don't forget to subscribe!
People just see the part where he was saving Bucky who was his friend,
They don't see the part that Cap was fighting for him because Bucky didn't knew what he had done, he didn't do those things in his own mind..
From my opinion.. helping Bucky was the thing that I would also do!
Cap should have been on Bucky’s side, but at the same time, withholding that crucial information from Tony was definitely not loyal. Bucky would have understood if Cap tried to bring him in, and he would have understood if Cap told Tony what happened. Cap failed.
Good work on the video. You presented things very well, however I disagree with certain things: Steve didn't betray Tony by keeping the secret of who killed his parents. A betrayal would be an act that knowingly exploits a friend's weakness for your own gain. Steve didn't do anything like that. Just the opposite; he thought he was protecting his two friends, Bucky and Tony, from a terrible truth.
But that shows that he is a flawed character, that he can't always make a perfect decision. However, that doesn't mean he's corrupted. Honestly, that's really a bad word here. "Corrupted" means his appearance of virtue is false, and that he knowingly does what he knows is wrong, for his own benefit. "Torn" would be a better word. But just the fact that he struggles heavily with these situations shows that he is not corrupted. It shows that he's constantly trying to stay on the true path. It's when we don't struggle with the heavy moral choices that we should be examining ourselves about whether our motives are corrupt or just.
Captain America knew that tony stark parents were assassinated but not by Bucky he said “I didn’t know it was him”
Bucky was brainwashed when he killed Tony's parents and cap knew that. He also knew Tony would still blame Bucky for it and try to get revenge like he did. Keeping that information from him was not betrayal and it was not lying. It was so that there wouldn't be any unnecessary conflict.
Well he also tought he “knew” Tony wouldn’t help him if he told him about Zemo’s plan.... but he did. He didn’t want unnecessary conflict but instead of talking ro Tony he rather has a war with his team mates?
Also keeping information of his parents death does count of betrayal. Atleast in my friendship book it does!
Tony had the right to know what happend to his parents!
If you were in his shoes you would want to know how your parents died didn’t you?
And if Steve just sat him down and expained his reaction wouldn’t have been bad, also Bucky wouldn’t have been right infront of his face.
Captain America had no reason to trust the UN or the American government in civil war. SHIELD had just internally collapsed right before his eyes and he had seen the manipulation governments and organizations had done to people. He was right to view the world as safest in the avengers’ hands and to not join the other half of the avengers.
wow I never cared for these movies but you made it so epic with your analysis, good work.
+Bluer Sora thank you!
Bucky didn't kill the Stark by Choice! He was brainwashed!
It doesn't matter to Tony. If I killed your parents, it doesn't matter what condition I was in when I killed them. Retribution is the greatest driving force for Tony, not necessarily justice.
Tony isn't judge, jury, and executioner. What happened to if we don't follow the law we're no better than the bad guys? He had every right to be angry, but he did not have the right to beat the shit out of Steve and attempt to murder Bucky. Full stop.
If the shoe was on the other foot and Tony had been brainwashed to murder people against his will would you be ok with him being killed for that? I don't think so.
@Snehil Shrey @versena I think you two don't understand, I never said it was ok. I like Tony as a character, and I like the direction his story is going. I'm just telling you that to Tony it doesn't matter that he's wrong morally or legally. It's retribution, he never got to say goodbye and now all his hatred that he against himself for never saying that he loves his father or saying that he'll miss his mom is now being redirected to Bucky. It's a beautiful and bittersweet moment for Tony, remember that at the beginning of Iron Man 3 he was trying to say goodbye to his parents, he was getting over it. Then the whole fiasco happened, now all those wounds he barely closed just got ripped open and everything has been pulled out. Tony's got no real emotional support, his whole cool character charade has forced him into isolation, now he's a cornered animal so to speak. Emotionally he's trying everything to justify himself and come out on top. The only way to do this is through blaming Bucky, Bucky as in Cap's friend has become a scapegoat, while Winter Soldier did pull the trigger, to Tony these two are one and the same.
@Snehil Shrey Inderectly because you sold missiles isn't exactly the same as indirectly by actually killing them with your own hands but being the tool for someone else... You know if a hitman killed somebody you know technically he'd also be a tool and the person who paid him is the worst but you still feel against the hitman. I doubt most people'd feel as strong against the gun company (even if there is also a part of responsibility from them considering they do contribute to the death tolls and know it).
Snehil Shrey you make a good point Bucky was a weapon like Tony's missiles but the only difference is that Bucky is a living person
The question really is "Are Buckys assassinations justified?" I mean I know he didn't mean to but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth that a Bucky is free to go but he was sort "exiled" to live in Wakanda and stuff so it's cool
Okay, but If he was corrupted, could he lift Mijolnir?
I wish someone would do a video like this for all the characters.
He kept it away from stark bcoz Bucky didn't know what he was doing at that time
I bet Bucky would have been a good candidate for the Program as well.
Great work yet again dude :) do you study film by any chance?
Also I'd love to see your take on Westworld, I just finished it and I found it amazing
+billygoatideas I'm currently in film school at the moment. I've had Westworld recommended to me by multiple people. Haven't watch it yet you know how it goes. There's a million films and a million tv shows I need to watch.
The First Avenger is so underrated
Tbh i always thought caps arc resembled america as a whole. First he was this scrappy, moral, fight for whats right above all else person. But as things went on, he began to do things less for the good of others and more what he thought was best. This sorta ended with him split up between someone who wants to be this symbol of justice, but also someone who is too flawed to be able to take that title because of the choices he made.
But idk i just watch the movies
I disagree. I think that even if it were a stranger in Bucky's place, Steve would have done the exact same thing. He wasn't protecting Bucky only because he was his best friend, it was because Bucky was a man who had been forced to do awful things against his will and was left holding the blame. When Steve tried to reason with Team Iron Man and warn them that Bucky's actions weren't his own, they all brushed him aside (except for Widow - good on you Nat). It wasn't as if Steve was asking them to let Bucky escape either - he straight-up said he himself should be the one to bring him in, because it would reduce unnecessary casualties by a wide margin. And again I reiterate, _Bucky didn't have a choice in any of this._
Sure, Steve could have told Tony his suspicions that Bucky was likely the one who killed Howard and Maria. But as we the collective Internet have been roasting a certain half-Celestial over lashing out at the wrong time, this is hypocrisy at best, illogical at worst. Bucky had killed many people while under Zemo's control in _Civil War_ and Tony barely batted an eye. But as soon as it's _his_ parents then he suddenly has the right to make Bucky answer for it? Get in line, Tony.
I disagree. Painting one side as better than the other is very disengenous.
What the film showed is that you cant solve all problems by fighting/passion. Its a human thing to do. Once it gets personal, we make choices that we wouldnt normally make.
I didn't paint one side better than the other. The whole point of _Civil War_ is that both sides are right about some things, and wrong about others. At the end of the day though, I simply can't get behind Tony and his belief that signing a UN-written agreement would solve more problems than it would create. I still think he makes a lot of good points though.
Let me put it this way. Tony does not get to claim his personal justice on Bucky just cause he has the tech and firepower to do so, the very same way he doesn't get to decide for the whole world that Ultron is what's best for them. Just thirty-six hours prior he was perfectly willing to put Bucky into "an American psych-centre, instead of a Wakandan prison" because he was personally removed from the situation. Tony knows what the right call is, he's not stupid. He takes action not because he knows what to do at that moment in time, but because he needs to feel some semblance of control in a situation where he doesn't have any. It's why he built all those suits in _Iron Man 3,_ why he was driven into creating Ultron (though Wanda is in part to blame for that), and why he signed the Accords when things started getting out of hand with the Avengers. Tony wants a solution and I respect that, but when he acts out he tends to do more harm than good; not because he's a bad person, but because he often has to make big decisions and that leaves potential for big mistakes.
And how about this? If Steve had done nothing to apprehend Bucky in Romania, things would have ended one of two ways: Bucky would have escaped with unnecessary deaths (no Steve to stop him from throwing police officers off the staircase) or he himself would have been killed (the police had orders to shoot on sight, plus T'Challa was going after him already). I don't consider either outcome to be justice, and I'd like to think Team Iron Man doesn't either; like it or not, Steve's interference saved lives on both sides even if he did act against the Accords. Nat may have called it "making things worse" because that's what it looked like to Secretary Ross and the others, but as Steve pointed out, his interference was the only reason Bucky didn't end up in front of the business end of a gun. It actually highlights one of the biggest overarching problems with the Accords - Ross and the UN will see what they want to see, and even the best outcome possible is regarded as a bad one if they weren't the ones to give the order. It's not about doing what's right at all, it's about trying to appear in control, and that's what ultimately stops Steve from joining Tony in their camp.
I don't deny that Bucky is dangerous and needs to be put somewhere where he can't hurt himself and others, but Steve never did either. They only ended up on the run because Ross wanted the easy solution, and what gets me is that Tony wasn't playing ball until he discovered Bucky killed his parents. And if Tony's reaction had been to fight Steve due to this revelation, I would have completely understood. Instead, we get this.
Steve: "This isn't going to change what happened."
Tony: "I don't care. He killed my mom."
Do I blame him? No, of course I don't - it's how most people in his position would have reacted. But that doesn't make it rational, or even moral. I think the climactic fight at the end of _Civil War_ ended exactly how it should have. Had Tony killed Bucky, or Steve killed Tony, then it wouldn't have been real justice. People like to make it out as if Steve completely refused to listen to reason throughout the movie, and that his sole intent was to protect Bucky no matter the cost. But that's a very skewed, very reductive way of looking at it, and given the objective facts I don't think that's true at all. Certainly, part of it is Steve wanting to save his best friend, but why should that be held against him, considering everything else I mentioned above? It astounds me that people would call Steve selfish when he's devoted his life to helping others, or uncompromising when he's made every effort to consider the other side even when his own words fall on deaf ears.
I'd follow Steve to the end of the line, not out of blind devotion, but because he fully and unflinchingly embodies what Sharon Carter said in _Civil War._ "Compromise where you can. Where you can't, don't. Even if everyone is telling you that something wrong is something right. Even if the whole world is telling you to move, it is your duty to plant yourself like a tree, look them in the eye, and say 'No, you move'." Even if the world is right to fear Bucky, it doesn't change the fact that they're wrong about him, or that they'd sooner kill a man to ease their own minds than fight for his chance to reclaim his humanity. And like I said, Steve would have done no less if it were a stranger in the same position, because that's just who he is. It doesn't matter if it's HYDRA he has to stop or his own fellow Avengers - Captain America does not stand idly by and allow injustice to prevail.
@@StormyKopaAMVs I dont agree. The real purpose of the movie is to expose this mindset. Theres this constant theme in the movie of people telling others to move. The movie exposes this ideology.
Compromise is necessary. We need to stop fighting our way through problems. Both sides refused to compromise and thats the problem. Also, another theme of the movie is to control our passion, which makes us make stupid decisions.
Once Black Panther understood Baron Zemo was the real person who killed his father and that he did this so the Avengers could fight each other for something they indirectly did to him, it all makes sense.
The movie also exposes the idea of revenge and instead replaces it with justice.
Civil War is a movie that is supposed to inform the audience of the problems with our country but instead people see it as a movie where super heroes fight(most anyway).
Out of passion, both "heros" almost kill each other. Passion trumps morals. Steve letting go of the captain america persona was him realizing he failed to "be a good man".
For me, the movie had a few problems. The villain was kinda lame, they were joking in the big fight when this should be a serious matter. But I really liked the ending.
When Tony finds out Bucky killed his parents, I remember feeling the same way Tony did. I was like, WTF? And then when I saw Bucky trying to rip his arc reactor off at one point, my heart sank even more.
The movie has a lot of nuance. But in Civil War, it shows that Cap does have a dark side. Hes not a righteous, perfect person, hes like everyone else.
But isnt that why we love Marvel characters? Steve is one of my favorite characters. And so is Tony. But that doesnt change the fact Steve messed up too
Compromise is necessary, yes, but the point is to know when it's right to do so and when it isn't. Compromising on difficult decisions is easy because it pushes the root of the problem aside and gives people false reassurance that it has been resolved. It takes real grit to stand up to a majority of people and tell them they're wrong, because you know the truth and will defend it to death if that's what it takes. Captain America is a man of conviction and principle, and I expected no less from him when things started going bad. _That_ was the point of Sharon's words (originally spoken by Steve's mother in the comics), not the idea that one should be a stubborn jackass when there are personal stakes on the line. The reason I still maintain that Steve was right not to compromise on Bucky is because Secretary Ross has made it clear that he was the wrong person to trust, not just regarding Bucky but the Avengers' affairs as a whole (if the logical holes in his first conversation with the Avengers wasn't indication enough). Hypothetically speaking, had the Avengers attempted a more private form of intervention regarding Bucky, I think Steve would have been a lot more cooperative because he trusts them to seek a proper solution, not just compromise for the sake of complacency.
I also agree that controlling one's passion is important, which is why I criticized Tony's decision at the end of the movie. If his reaction had been to fight Steve, not Bucky, it would have been more understandable. Steve _was_ wrong not to tell him about his parents in the two years or so he had known HYDRA orchestrated their deaths, but so was Tony for trying to kill Bucky over something he knew Bucky didn't want to do and would never have done of his own free will. I think this is something we both get, and as you said T'Challa was a much better example of how one handles justice correctly. It's also worth noting that neither Steve nor Bucky were trying to kill Tony, they only fought to destroy his arc reactor because it would put him out of commission and hopefully give him time to cool down. I think for me, the heartbreaking moment was right before the fight ended, when Tony threw his hands in front of his face because he genuinely believed that Steve was about to kill him. That reaction was obviously not lost on Steve, and it said more than any amount of words could. The trust was gone, and really it was both their faults because they revealed a darkness that went against everything they believed about one other.
I don't just see _Civil War_ as a movie about superheroes fighting each other. It's rare to see a cinematic event invoke such division among fans and bring out lengthy conversations about ideals and how one should conduct themselves in a world that looks not unlike the one we live in ourselves. Unfortunately, the majority of these conversations end up being Team Cap/Team Iron Man pissing contests, something I'm not particularly interested in. I'm glad we were able to have this back and forth though - even if I side with Cap at the end of the day, I think you bring up some good points and am happy you're one of the people who have given this serious thought. I'm still of the opinion, however, that the only thing Steve did wrong was keep his secret from Tony (though I'm not underselling the fact that it was a really, _really_ shitty thing to do), and that protecting Bucky from the UN is not indicative of any sort of "corruption". It's why he never wavered in his stance on the Accords, even when he apologized to Tony and admitted that he had only been sparing himself.
Oh, and as a caveat, I'd like to recall Dr. Erskine's words to Steve the night before he received the supersoldier serum. Steve has never been perfect, nor will he ever be. But he strives to be a good man and that supercedes all else, including the mantle of Captain America. If that meant he had to put down the shield and walk away knowing that he bought Bucky a chance at redemption, then so be it. How he and Tony are going to work out the personal matter of "sorry I didn't tell you who killed your parents"...well, I suppose we'll see, because I don't think an apology letter is enough to fix the amount of damage Steve has done. Here's hoping _Avengers 4_ will take the time to properly resolve this, hmm?
I disagree that Steve would do what he did in Civil War for someone other than Bucky. The entire film's plot revolved around Steve fiercely protecting Bucky; the film went out of its way by showing Steve's feelings for the last living link to his own time (Peggy dies in the film leaving only Bucky). Steve's "Captain America" persona crumbles before Bucky and his desperate need to "have" him (not necessarily in a shipping sort of way but more like the last living remnant of his old life).
much like robert downey jr. with iron man, they could not have found a better actor for captain america than chris evans, YOU ROCK CHRIS!!
How does the fact that he kept the death of Tony's parents from him to keep him from killing his best friend make him corrupted?
Eh I don't think what he did with Bucky was necessarily wrong because it was an unwinnable situation. Whatever friend he chose, he would have to betray the other.
As you said yourself, Bucky has been brainwashed and his memories had been wiped multiple times, he obviously can not held responsible for the actions of the winter soldier. Whether the winter soldier killed Tonys parents or not, Bucky Barnes was at the time not accountable for his actions. Tony feeling betrayed because Cap protected Bucky is in that regard irrational and Cap is still on the right.
You could only argue that cap should have Bucky brought in, because the judge or jury would have to declare him innocent the moment the brainwashing is brought up, but he might lack actual evidence for it. However to reiterate my previous point, Tony is wrong in this case and he shouldn't be part of this case anyway because he is affected and thus compromised.
I dont think that Bucky deserves a punishment because is not like he had a choice, but i do thing that Tony had the right to know, and if Steve had told him before the civil war, them their fight in the end of the movie could had been avoided
If he would have told tony he would still try to kill him no matter what he said or did that's just tony and if he wouldn't have told him and wouldn't have figured out they wouldn't have fought and broke the team cause at the end u can see how they finally became friends again and were gonna team up but then that guy showed him the video making tony want to kill bucky no matter what
Captain America is my favorite superman... my favorite Avenger. But I love all the Avengers...
Great video!
I wanna see Captain America with a Maga Hat and a flag cape, ALSO holding a flag with an American mask on his mask.
can you please continue this story on how steve was in infinity war
Neat Idea, but Cap didn't just stick with his oldest friend over his new friends and betraying them in them in process. Cap knew bucky was manipulated beyond his own control. Cap tried to mediate the situation between Tony and Bucky the best he could knowing Tony wouldn't be able to handle the truth and his emotion. Bucky was a victim just as much as Tony.
Very good start; however, you missed the landing. Cap is a stoic character. His course never really changed. His environment/society did, which gives the perception he fell.
Hi Everyone.
A while ago I saw this great video on Captain America analyzing his character.
It talked about how he is "always sad" and if he stopped fighting he
"wouldn't know what to do with himself", it was an excellent video and
i want to see it again but cant find it. Does anybody know where it is?
Thanks all and have a great day!
"Corruption" is not a word you associate with Captain America. Let us be clear, from the moment the accords were presented it was never a question of morality, it was a question of government subjugation perpetuated by a sense of underserved guilt. Everything that porn stash wearing Colonel presented as, clear throat, "evidence", were Cap and his allies cleaning up the mistakes of the government and more importantly Tony Stark. Whom in his arrogance thought he could enforce these bogus ideals with his guilt as the only real reason for their validation. Tony has never liked government intervention or involvement since his first film and his change of heart was only due to him realizing that thinking he is always right lead to that woman's son death. And the irony is still missed on him when he tries to use this tragedy that he was responsible for to guilt trip the others into siding with him. The man never even so much as apologized to Scarlett for her brother's death. In between dealing with Loki because of the government's tampering with the cube to make weaponry, dealing with Tony's creation of Ultron, putting down a corrupted SHIELD with flight technology designed once again by you guessed it, Tony Stark, the only thing Cap is guilty of is a sense of justice and righteousness so strong that he will fight his own allies. That is not "corruption", that is conviction.
I would argue cap didn’t know about Bucky killing Tony’s parents in age of ultron cap was still looking for Bucky but in the Zola scene he says simply accidents happen far as cap knew hydra killed them in a car accident
I just think that in Civil War there was no real right answer. The Sokovia Accords are abstract rules. With General Ross in charge, they become a sword that will destroy anyone that does not agree with the Accords. Ross gets off on his power and will not tolerate a challenge to it.
At the end of the day, Steve cares about people and doing the right thing. Letting Bucky be killed without knowing what really happened was not something he will allow. If a friend is being hunted by everyone in the world with intent to kill him or her, then Steve Rogers will battle the world. I think that if the friend turn out to be guilty, then he will bring them in himself. If they are innocent, Steve Rogers will support them with everything that he got. Bucky was innocent. I think that if Tony Stark was in the same situation, Steve Rogers will go against anyone, even Bucky.
There are situations when there no easy answer. That is life.
awesome!
Love it. You should analyse the character: The Joker, what he stands for and what makes him unique from other villains?
+Filmaholics go watch Lessons From The Screenplay's Anatomy of the Antagonist. A great video done much better than I ever could that analyzes the Joker from The Dark Knight.
Goodness is not a word
It is
He’s not corrupt. In the case of the army/ government/ shield/ hydra His eyes have been opened. Same integrity. Same values. In the case of Bucky/ Tony- as pissed off as I was about Tony being lied to and getting ganged up on after a COMPLETE valid and understandable fit of rage, Cap would never let anyone hurt Bucky especially for something he couldn’t help doing. That does nothing for Tony and you can’t blame the man for hating them both but it doesn’t make Cap ‘wrong’ or corrupt. It’s just a fucked up situation all around. I do wish he had let Tony beat Buck’s ass though lol. He just watched someone murder his patents. His reaction was 100% understandable and not trusting Cap afterward was as well. Cap is still Cap though.
Except when he made that choice in the movie mate, he didn't even know Bucky was part of the quation. He decided to NOT sign before King T'Chaka was even killed. Bucky played ZERO parts in the decision. It was made based on the "You Move' speech at the funeral. It was only after the King was killed, he went to Germany and then saw death squads with shoot to kill order sent to kill bucky based on ONE fuzzy photograph (which turned out to be false) did he step in. Nicely done video btw, i just think your assessment takes a wrong turn there.
Thank you. I hate how people think Steve decided against the Accords *because* of Bucky, when really he played no role in it. Steve rejected them before Bucky even appeared, and then he rejected them again after he was told if he signed Bucky would be taken back to the US. Once he heard about Wanda's treatment he was fully against them again, so the narrative that he chose Bucky over the Accords is patently and demonstrably false.
Great video
Query: When did Steve know for certain that Bucky did it?
1 min in and I subbed
I just like his voice
I really hate hated cap in civil war, He blames Fury for keeping secrets, Yet cap is there keeping secrets from Tony... wtf
Nice video buddy