Bioethanol - Periodic Table of Videos
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- Опубліковано 11 сер 2011
- Another video from our recent trip to Brazil - this time discussing the country's famed use of bioethanol as fuel.
The Professor finds everything is not as he expected. - Наука та технологія
I'm Brazilian and today 22/8/13 ethanol is much more cost effective than gasoline.
Also ethanol has a wierd effect on power output on cars due to it's burning characteristics, cars running on ethanol will often have less torque on lower RPMs, but on the high end they will produce a little more power ( 1-5%). Engines with compressors (turbos and superchargers) have even more advantages running on ethanol due to it's abilliy to withstand higher pressures withought self detonating. :)
Its a shame since they discovered petrol in Brasil the governement stoped subsidising the sugar cane farms and the ethanol makers...
Apart from the scientific point there is also the issue of cutting down the rainforest to increase sugar production to serve as fuel. That kills a part of the forest which neutralizes the CO2 from the atmosphere, so you end up with a net loss of efficiency in that regard.
There is a different source of "fuel gas" and that doesnt involve using any plants directly. Even Top Gear showed it in 2004 (Season 4, Episode 6), but they claimed it wasnt worth it at the time. The only reason why people are using sugar to make the ethanol is that getting it from poo isnt as easy ... but it could be done. Sadly humans are generally lazy and go the easy way instead of the right way ... Our cities produce a HUGE amount of poo every day and there will be a lot of gases produced anyways during the natural processes ... they are all wasted atm.
Fascinating video, this is why I subscribed years ago because I knew you guys would help me later on in life which you are now for my degree and the fact this channel influenced me to get a degree.
Are your views on bio ethanol different now at all? What has changed in the last few years
Thanks
Chris
That was an amazing video!
Very interesting, Prof.
very interesting, i just read an article in Scientific American yesterday about this. thank you professor for making this option seem viable and likely, b/c the article completely talked it down (and not just the sugar cane, but corn ethanol, cellulose ethanol and algal ethanol)
Well said, Professor. The idea of sugar or alcohol from cellulose was around in the 1950's and still has hot been achieved, on an economic standard. It was the 'Holy Grail' of my youth, which has not been achieved in my lifetime.
This is why we need people like the Prof.... If mankind can sort out Bio Fuel and Nuclear Fusion we'll all be saved....
dear brady and the professor, you never disappoint me=)
You've given me some interesting things to think about...
Great address of issue.
@b1912313 Correct but what do you think will happen if there was even less food paired with a growing population?
Has to be the nicest community of people on these videos xD
I love it.
@Cyrathil You're RIGHT!!! I shall begin drawing up plans immediatly!!!
@wacko031290 Is it odd that I am now envisioning a tank with a bike frame in the middle of the cabin just sitting there, bolted to the floor?
The eye-opener for me is that Brazil is using ethanol. I didn't know that! That's terrific, other issues aside.
what about the energy used to distill the fuel? is it done with a biofuel?
Great video, everyone.
@Surtak the total space needed to grow ethanol for all of the US is 1/7th of that required for food
@cidvisions
For simplicity sake just answer this why were those periods hotter and any links that can be provided?
From this farmer and engineer, let me correct the professor on the corn part. We don't use sweet corn to make ethanol. This is a VERY common misconception. Sweet corn accounts for a very small percentage of the corn that is planted. The vast majority is yellow number 2 dent corn, or often referred to as field corn. It is harvested dry and mostly made of starch. It has many uses from feeding livestock to cereals to making corn syrup and ethanol etc.
But, Dr., look at it from a different perspective: we're using Carbon that's already on the surface... We're not mining it down like other fossil fuels...
@ToxicBassUK I'm curious, what are some of the ethical implication? I don't know much about this subject.
@madjimms Well more concentrated sugar?
Brazil's fuel use is around 10% ethanol for ICEs.
Second generation biofuel is incredibly difficult to achieve. For example in America the EPA has been mandating the use of cellulosic biofuel for many year and each year, the mandates keep getting cut back as the production capacity is not coming on line when expected due to the technical difficulty of cellulosic ethanol. Regarding price of feedstock for such a process, straw would be a good example.
@Surtak "This sort" is, because it uses foodstuffs for fuel. But in the video, cellulosic ethanol is mentioned. The majority of a plant's composition is cellulose, and millions of tons of biowaste containing cellulose are thrown away each year. Assuming more funding was put into research, it might be profitable to sell cellulosic ethanol at $2/gallon (same energy/dollar as $3/gallon gasoline), while getting rid of a lot of biowaste, and decreasing greenhouse emissions by 85%.
There is a bioethanol plant here in Queensland (Australia) that uses the waste products from sugar cane harvesting to make ethanol. Everyone gets their sugar, and ethanol still gets made. Win-win.
The professor is right with everything he said. People are going to use gasoline as long as it's cheaper. But as gas continues to rise in price eventually they will all switch. It's good that Brazil has ethanol stations NOW as apposed to later to make the transition smooth
despite the fact, as told on the video, that alcohol you will get less miles per liter, this biofuel combusts more efficiently (dont know if this would be the right word) than gasoline. So, on flex engines, for example, you will get more horse powers when running on alcohol than when running the very same engine with gasoline. We even have a race category, Stock Car, similar to US Nascar one, where the cars are fueled on alcohol because of this horse power gain.
There is also the issue of agricultural area for large scale production.
And afaik there simply is not enough agricultural area to support production in the quantities needed for current consumption of cars.
Even if you include areas not usable for foods but from cellulose.
Could you guys do a video on solar panels?
We are using gasoline more often because we are in the middle of the sugarcane's offseason. When the ethanol plants are receiving more material, the price goes down again and we start consuming ethanol a lot more than gasoline :) In fact, there is a simple calculation you can make to find out which fuel is more cost-effective. Ethanol price should always be 70% of the gasoline price. If it's over that rate, gasoline is more cost-effective! =)
@frogspawn11
Referring to Hydrogen fuel-cells or hydrogen fusion?
I think there is almost no "cellulose waste" from sugar cane for ethanol production. While pressing and fermenting the sugary sap they dry the stalks and burn them to heat their stills. Perfect recycling of otherwise lost energy. It doesn't make sense to use other energy sources for distilling.
The most common of these uses (ethanol and corn syrup) uses only the starch of the corn. The rest is a high protein by-product that is VERY good animal feed. In fact, cattle can't use the starch in the corn and the starch greatly contributes to the methane that cattle make. So the ethanol process is just removing the part of the corn that cattle can't use causing them to produce much less methane.
@ToxicBassUK Ah, of course... thanks for answering my question.
@fredb3 "without the sun there would be no heat, so actually as previously stated the only contributing factor of any relevance is proximity to the sun."
So do you not wear jackets in the winter, claiming that since there isn't a heat-source close at hand it's pointless?
Well mate, it's actually the inverse. In the past,people down here used to have a lot of problems when it was cold (temperatures can easily go down to 0C[32F] in the southern states, and remains cold from June to early september),so people couldn't get their car started because the ethanol would not burn as good as gasoline. Nowadays this problem is solved, the car companies added a small tank, which you fill with gasoline so you won't have a problem starting it.
@Fearose The point is that even things which are necessary in a system, even if said system has balances in place (in the water example, the body will attempt to expel excess water as waste, and in the earth example, the various cycles (carbon, water, etc.) trying to come to an equilibrium), will be useless if the checks are unable to work fast enough.
Can you do a short video on the band of anti-matter discovered around the Earth? Or is that more SixtySymbols? (And if it is, will they be doing a video?)
@Surtak Cellulosic fiber does not require extra "cellulose crops." ALL crops already have cellulose in them that we don't utilize anyways. Just by converting the plant waste that we already churn out in massive amounts can produce billions of gallons of cellulosic ethanol.
It's fairly viable IF the U.S. took out the subsidies from sugar-based ethanol and gasoline, and put it towards cellulosic ethanol. It produces competitively priced fuel from material that we already have too much of.
@PanzarMetal I don't think it works like that, sugar is only so dense & cannot be packed much more than its granular state. In the US, sugar is actually quite cheap due to the excess of corn & corn sugar (high fructose corn syrup)
@PDGTR1 colorless and odorless has nothing to do with the infra-red reflective qualities. co2 is a very weak reflector of infra-red but because of the huge quantities being pumped into the atmosphere it must be considered a greenhouse gas.
@bonehead1902, hmm, normally you get methanol from wood. Is it methanol or ethanol? Methanol is difficult to use as a fuel because it is corrosive to metals.
But I do understand your point of view in the conclusion... Although I think It's early to condamn any innitiative in that direction. Ethanol may save us, as much as petrol may condamn humankind. As a scientist, I believe you are looking into causes and consequences!
@Z6U6Z6U so are atom being manifested by the dead plants and animals of the past?
@PDGTR1
If you can link to any papers or links to videos of tests done to show that this is the case that would be good to read :) After all i have started this debate from no knowledge and a question and o far found a lot out through links.
What about hydrogen though? At the moment it's mainly pulled from natural gas which releases gagloads of carbon dioxide but if there was a viable way to extract it from the sea ....
@DrakeDorosh I know one method that they are trying is to engineer organisms that can produce enzymes to break down cellulose and ferment that as well (along with lignin and lignocellulose).
@TadRaunch Do we grow crops for fuel or food? If families in developing countries get a higher price for fuel crops they will grow them over food crops and people will starve.
@langov3
Sorry meant to say -54°C
A.R. Vasavada, D.A. Paige, and S.E. Wood (1999). "Near-Surface Temperatures on Mercury and the Moon and the Stability of Polar Ice Deposits". Icarus 141 (2): 179.
Dear Periodic Videos,
Could you make a video about the names of the elements in different languages? It would be good to see what other countries call the elements.
Thanks
P3t3rIllegal
@superdau correlation and causation are two very different things you should try to understand them
@WeaselWJ
Completely agreed.
Actually I'd rather switch to solar power. No need for any nutrients whatsoever, but of course still a lot of manufacturing and I don't know how realistic it is to power things like factories on solar power. Or biofuel for that matter.
Ah! I've always thought that something should be done with cellulose as we have it in abundance and it has high potential of being of greater value than what it is now.
@P55CxE9 Batteries can get fairly heavy, and so it might not be as economically viable as bio-ethanol engine.
@periodicvideos have you ever heard about abiotic oils? I have heard that there are quite a few known pockets and was wondering how they could come to exist. This question is a result of hearing the Prof. Say that we will eventually run out of oil reserves.
I really do enjoy how the Brazillians use a comma instead of a period as their decimal point. $2,299 would be pretty pricey for a liter of ethanol.
@RustyCyler The Sacred Flying Teapot blesses this video and all others!
@themightychickens Exactly!
@fredb3 There are MANY potential weather regulating processes. What's your point? Did you factor in current deforestation to your tree regulation model? There are forcings in BOTH directions. More importantly your comment does not address my response to your request. I have given you a repeatable, easy, experiment for both of your concerns. Do you accept that both of those experiments will give you verifiable data on the existence and cause of climate change?
@Jebus495
Hemp food....are you suggestiong we all eat space cake sah?!
@WhichDoctor1 A very valid point that people often over look. It's the same as getting a new car and scrapping the old car for the sake of saving energy. How long will you have to run that new car to make up the energy that was used to create it? 5 maybe 10 years? do you plan on owning the car that long? Unfortunately there are portions of the green movement that are horribly misguided and as always the Professor is correct.
@Cyrathil Ok, great point. Now taking a gallon of water in you body at one time is hazardous. BUT "Pumping" out a CO2 equivalent ( of a gallon of water to a human body as to earth ) Im going to say that the area of Australia Pumping out 500trillion metric tons of CO2 every 30 sec for 10 minutes . Bad math but you get the point.
Bioethanol for now, is expensive cuz it isn't used enough. "Critical mass of use" must be achived, but i think that production of biobased plastics (like green PE from Braskem) will stimulate production of bioethanol from sugarcane.So far only 1% of sugarcane is used for bioethanol in Brasil (that's very low) P.s: U can make alot of things from celulose especially bioplastic(Cellophane, Celluloid..) I study in Slovenian polymer technology college, that's where my pasion for polymer comes from :P
Our gasoline has a rather big percentage of ethanol in it; that said even though most people buy gasoline instead of "pure" ethanol, they're using a great quantity of it as well.
As I always say, the vast majority of people care about the environment as long as it is practically and economically convenient.
Many will never admit that, but that's just the way things are.
@Z6U6Z6U ok well how was it stored?
I live in Brazil, so I know the fact that we are in the last 3 years aprox, living a fuel crisis. The price of the sugar cane went skyhigh, and so did the gasoline, as we still import a lot of petrol from other countries. Brazil is still a very dependent country and very "Plantation" country like, we only export basic things like minerals and plants/food. This is what makes me mad about this country, we have all the Nature's support, but we don't create nothing, we just sell to someone else.
I've often thought couldn't you use seaweed to make biofule. Wouldn't take away from the land growing crops to feed people and it would provide a good environment for fish to live increasing their population too. Just a thought
@unluckylion I doubt a bike will ever make a good tank... where would you put the gun turret =P
@EPhantom125
That being said.. Google up the stuff, if you are interested in the topic.
hemp farms! hemp is easy to grow and makes great biofuels!(:
I'm actually happy the Professor refrained from global warming claptrap. We can all agree that fossil fuels will eventually run dry (once again, the urgency of the matter is debated), and that by using food staples as fuel, you are creating an even greater problem when typical foods inflate in price. Perhaps once we get our priorities in order (as individuals, not as a government-subsidized project), the rest may fall into place.
Actually, our brazilian gasoline has 20-25% of ethanol in it´s composition. It means that when ethanol price rise, gasoline price rise as well. But even so, gasoline is more cost-effective (kilometers per liter). Alcohol only worths if it costs less than 70% the price of gasoline.
What does the professor think about electric powered cars?
@cidvisions
It's always advisable to back up first hand knowledge with proofs :)
The link... it's a bit dubious.
At first:
"Motivated by the rapid increase in atmospheric CO2due to human activities since the Industrial Revolution"
But then
"Our knowledge is insufficient to describe the interactions between the components of the Earth system and the relationship between the carbon cycle and other biogeochemical and climatological processes"
This contradicts the opening statement
Continued....
i think lots of people are commenting before the end of the video. at some point we will run out of oil.
and im pretty sure the fermentation of sugar also causes co2 to be released? plus the burning of the ethinol.
or maybe ive just brewed a few too much of my own ;p
@bonehead1902 problem isn't if it uses a food source, the problem is it uses agricultural space, makes farmers want to grow the product and thus stop producing food and is actually not ecofriendly at all as it goes down to burning wood or sugar canes (plants consume CO2 but burning them produces CO2 so it's definitly not a good solution in the long run) Just my point of view there, don't hate me^^
@fredb3 the 1:30k ratio can be easily explained and is also treated thoroughly in the biofuel debate. the explanation is the following: 1. there is a huge amount of plants on this planet 2. when plants die, they produce co2. (this is where you stop thinking) but point 3 is: during their life, plants take in the same amount of co2 as what they produce when decomposing, therefore the actual ratio is humans-plants = infinite-none
Why not use bioengineering for making sugar cheaper?
@BenjaminFranklin2u
That would escape the point of asking for others to contribute.
So far thanks to others info I found.
1)An atmosphere makes a difference to heat retention.
2)Plant biomass alone dwarfs man for CO2 production by a ratio of 30,000:1Tonnes per annum
3)Earth is -3°C than the Minoan period and -2°C than the Roman period in fact during the industrial age, the earth cooled.
4)Proximity to the sun matters
So far an atmosphere does contribute to warming, but man barely contributes.
Nice to know there is enough food for the world's population that arable land can be used for bioethanol production.
Where did I say all laws were unjustified authoritarianism? Never. Where did I say let any hum do anything they want? I said they should be able to do whatever they want so long as it does not affect others negatively, so your point on me saying that I am unable to distinguish actions that cause harm is moot. I was likening your flying off the handle as well as coarse inflammatory language to that of the WBC. It is you who can't seem to understand similes. Thank you for proving my point.
cant the use cellulose from non edible plants.
@thequeenofspades I think the bigger problem with hydrogen is the efficient and safe storage of it. But when they make that work, it will be the future.
other interesting fact is that brazilian gasoline is not PURE gasoline, as the one sold on other countries. Our gasoline is a mix of pure gasoline and alcohol. The percentage can vary and is controlled by the government. Usually, it's 20 to 25% alcohol on the gasoline. So, even those cars running on gasoline, are using some percentage of alcohol. So, even those gasoline-only cars, uses some alcohol as fuel, 20-25%.
He didn't explain second generation ethanol from cellulose enough. That would be interesting to see what has been tried. Methanol is made with wet cellulose and heat but it's carcinogenic. Too bad because it's easy and was common back in WWII during fuel rationing. I wish I could ask him for further discussion on nitrating ethanol and methanol and mixing small amounts in with ethanol to boost power.
@fredb3 1) The Earth is heating up is very easy. The repeatable experiment involves a thermometer.
2) Directly caused by man is also pretty easy. If CO2 and other greenhouse gases are causing the warming effect then you should see a fingerprint of it in the atmosphere as different layers would warm due to different stimuli (eg luminosity increase vs trapping the radiation).
Finally Le Chatelier only tells us an equilibrium will be found but not where it will be.
@zanariot All energy forms started out as inefficient industries funded by the government. It is incredibly expensive to set up and operate any kind of power production facility and almost no private industry could afford to champion a new system which might take 20 to 40 years to become profitable. Instant gratification fails completely in the energy sector and if we want long term supplies of renewable industry we may need to sacrifice in the near term to benefit in the long run.
I use a Dark Matter engine in my car. Doesn't produce much carbon release, but it does release of alpha, beta, and gamma particles. :P
@hypnofan35 The problem with all the things that went away is: It DON'T work... (Or has never existed)
@cidvisions
I never said it's anything to do with respect, in a study which is unequivocally cited as a source for a point it goes against any argument to have uncertainty, as for rending a point of validity.
A model is uncertain when excluding no less than 1 other substantial variable which affects the results, which is basically a closed system paradox or lab environment, which does indeed create validity issues, this study had 3.
@cidvisions
To put into perspective how powerful just one tree really is, an adult tree can soak up to 100Gallons an hour of water through it's roots around 90% of which evaporates through the leaves
3:50 /watch?v=J1PqUB7Tu3Y
So this is potential source of weather regulation, as water vapour creates cloud cover, I am not asking just an obvious question but a very hard one to back up.
@finlarg That's just oil, which represents only a small minority of the hydrocarbons on the earth. This is how it always works--we pick the low hanging fruit first, and then as technology advanced and methods become more efficient we get the tougher stuff later. First it's the easy to get and process sweet crude, then the sour, then the shale oil and so on. We didn't know how to build an airplane until someone came along and figured it out. People will figure this out too.
There building a Bioethanol plant where I live. Its the only type in the world for what it uses to get the ethanol out. It dosent use any food products. It gets it out of wood waste. From a hard board plant. so thats the best thing my town did in a long time. Then there building a coal power plant 30 miles from here lol
@bartj777 Maybe not in the next 5 years, but 20 years from now there will be so little of the cheap/ easily accessible oil left that it will be prohibitively expensive. It's not propaganda, it's the exploitation of a finite resource.
@Surtak This is just an idea man... But it is possible. But I think It would work if we would have 50% cars on ethil fuel (bio ethanol) and other 50% electric power, or electric powered hydrogen cells
P.C Sorry for my english... If you want to talk more about this send me a message.
@Surtak You're right, producing crops JUST for bio-fuel is actually stupid. Also, it is not carbon neutral because of the high emissions of transporting and processing the crops themselves. Using vegetable oil waste from deep-fryers or something is a little more practical. Better off sticking to using the land for food.