Blows me away that pathfinder 2e players will INSIST that this is easier than 5e lmao Pathfinder 2e is a cool as hell system don't get me wrong, but good lord the learning curve is brutal
Guy, thank you very much for this video. It's giving me a better idea about what things I have to pay more attention to in the design of my TTRPG. And it makes me feel pretty calm knowing that it's not bad that I'm testing it for bugs so rigorously. Even though some of my friends say that it was ready to be playable for a long time.
I cannot help but feel the Internet has become some kind of eldeitch entity prying and feeding on thoughts. I was just toying with some mechanics of a system I have been building when this popped up. I have to admit I had not even considered inventory yet. A very well timed and helpful video.
Good to know that there are people on your Discord server who are game testers. I need people other than my friends to test out my game when it's ready.
i find any thing that makes you reconsider things is good, because it makes you think and that helps make you a better GM Keep it up i find these very insightful
I wish all game designers would use math when they test and balance their game. You don't have to use a LOT of math, basic algebra is as deep as you would need to go in most cases.
Abilities should have costs relative to their game effect. If every Feat, Edge, whatever, is to be worth 2 points, then design them to each be worth 2 points. And only 2 points. Many games get lazy with "fuzzy math" where some choices are inherently worth more for the same cost. A game should never do that. If it is worth more, it should cost more.
I just wanted to find a newer video to let you know something my friend. Thank you! Your "practical guide to becoming a great gm" book has been a massive help in my journey to create my own original world. And yes, I'm designing an entire planet from scratch. I can hear your voice as I read through it too. It really is a great tool to lead me in a better path to making a more cohesive story that everyone can enjoy. Thank you so much for everything you do for your audience
Congratulations, Guy! I've just started reading "The Practical Guide to Becoming a Great GM." I have your KS project saved, and hopefully I finish your first book before then. 😊🍻
A quick addition to the great advice in this video. When testing your mechanics (mechanisms?) there are three things you should look for. 1. Does the mechanism allow the character to accomplish the intended goal? For example does "unlock door"potentially end with an unlocked door. This sounds obvious - it should be. If you're not delivering the goods with this point, you're failing hard. Is it too obvious to require explanation? Perhaps, but I do recall paying for a commercial set of naval wargame rules. The rules were full of detail, how to navigate, how to shoot your guns and torpedoes, extensive tables on the systems that could be damages by the guns and torpedoes with relevant reductions to movement and shooting. The rules didn't contain and instructions on what would sink a ship. Now for the less obvious pair. 2. Are the mechanics reasonable. Are big expensive locks like the ones on castle or bank doors harder to pick than the latch you find on a peasant's hut? Are your numbers broken so some characters can open every lock with no effort? Consider whether lock picking should be restricted to specialists, and require special tools, or whether everybody can have a go. 3. Are the mechanics playable. Does it take 30 minutes, a slide rule and a migraine to find out whether you picked the lock, or do you roll your dice, add a modifier and check a target mumber. I assume you will want to do lots of fun things during your game session. I also assume your players will all want a go, and don't want to be sitting about for an hour while one character picks a lock. Try to make your mechanics as quick as possible. I assure you, game friction, slow players and unexpected adventure events will add significantly to your anticipated playing time.
Great video! The journey for figuring out how you were going to handle inventory was especially good. Though I have to admit I kept getting distracted by the subtle cycling rainbow lighting from off to one side, like ‘wait, did Guy leave the chromatic orb on?’
Love this video! The ironic thing is right after your intro where you invite the viewers to learn from your mistakes, a new fast food item came up that can only describe as a mistake.
Hey Guy, thank you for getting me into GMing and allowing me to bypass my hurdle of pure melee hate. I've always been averse to playing a class that boils down to start turn>bonk>end turn>repeat. I was recently convinced by fellow players and a race to try out a Barbarian. this has led me to make Aero Wildlight a one-armed Firbolg, a non-killing pacifist whom doesn't understand money as most naturally Firbolgs tend to be ignorant of it. sadly this has led to people I show my character idea to answer with such things as "What? One-armed? But you NEED to use 2H weapons as barbarian or you are gimping your character and a hindrance to the team" or "Why would you handicap yourself early?" and "you MUST hoard money for better loot and stuff, not knowing about money is STUPID" this has not deterred me from making and even getting art for this character, but I think it could be a great topic for you to bring up. both underused classes like firbolg's, and making characters with flaws or disadvantages.
Not only are they trustworthy... They sre probably working on their own stufd, and gain nothing by copying someone elses wholesale. Sure they mighr take great bits... But hopefully you dod the same for your Design. Mine is a mix of Numenera, Edge of the Empire, forbidden lands, ICRPG, Gloomhaven and probably more...
I always like it to learn from mistakes other people make, way better than making mistakes on my own. But if everything woks out without mistakes does not necessarily mean that people cannot still learn from it, but for our hobby that would mean if you would be correct, that most games award XP the wrong way, since usually it is gained for overcoming a challenge not for the failures to do so. Regarding playtesting, that is why I think having power gamers around is important to find such crucial loop holes. And yes, I have also found issues in professional published RPGs, I would say nothing had so many game breaking options as the 3rd edition for L5R. I definitely have also made descriptions too early in the past which did not survived later revisions. But I feel like bloat during the design is a problem, since part of the design process is to try things out, the important part is just to cut all the useless stuff at the end out again. Like the design saying goes, something not finished when you cannot add anything else to it, but it is finished when you cannot remove anything from it.
I care about the small things. Having characters carrying around 50 different potions and nothing to store them is... stupid. Carrying around 500' of rope on your shoulder. Is stupid. Carrying 3 2-handed weapons, 1 large shield, 1 tower shield, and 4 or 5 medium sized weapons... is stupid. If ANY game wants to do away with carrying capacity or encumbrance... do it with in-world reasoning. Everyone has limitless bag of holding or something else equally silly. Don't just ignore it. And... make sure your enemies follow the same rules. So when they PC says I'm gonna fly, and you say the bbeg pulls out a staff of gravity and pulls you to the ground, and then they say ok I'm going to hide behind the boulder, so they pull their staff of boulder melting, and then they say ok I'm going to to run up and engage in melee... so they pull their staff of invulnerability... they can't complain. BBEG can have as many staffs as he wants cause tracking inventory is "boring". Because the NPCs get to carry around just as much gear and tactical options as players do. Be interesting to see how "fair"/"logical"/"important" players think infinite storage is when all the enemies have it as well. Scouting out and planning for the next mission is 1/2 the fun. Making DIFFICULT CHOICES and their impact on success and failure is a HUGE part of the game. Carrying around 5 different weapons that cover every possible situation is boring. And if you allow it in any system... those people BETTER be getting robbed on the regular. Seeing how they got soo much stuff that keeping track of it is "too difficult".
You do _not_ have legal recourse if people copy your game mechanics from a post on Discord. Heck, you don't have legal recourse from people copying your game mechanics in print, because game mechanics are not copyrighteable. What to do about that? Nothing. "People will steal my ideas" Is a jubenile concern from unexperienced creators. Because: A) People have their own ideas they are passionate to be working on rather than yours. B) Your ideas are probably not industry-shattering innovations tbh. Leave your ego at the door. C) Products are not valued by "the idea" but rather by the work that's put into them. There are no million dollar ideas, because they can be so easily copied. Ideas are a dime a donzen if even that. D) They are gonna be copied anyway. They _should_ be copied if they are good. Embrace it. RPGs are an open creative medium that flourishes with the adoption of new, effective ideas. You benefit from that. You borrow good ideas from other games, let others do the same with your own creation and take pride in it.
Question: If a player wants to carry 6 oxcarts in his backpack, isn't it the game master's job to say ‘no’ and not the game designer's job to make a rule about it? I think it makes more sense for a role-playing game to leave some things open and let the players discuss and decide for themselves what is possible and what is not. Some mechanics even seem to invite players to find a way to abuse them that they might not have found if things were left to logical thinking. However, it is probably hard to decide which topics should be open for discussion and for which rules should be set.
I dont agree that you need to flesh out everything like your rent example. Even 5e has a bunch of items under Adventurers gear that has no description. People are allowed and should Think for themselves.
Point 4 is something I fell into and it made it confusing. I recently got back into making the system and I stripped it back so much and only put the most basic idea of what things are for.
A mistake I saw when a friend designed his TTRPG is choosing which feedback to consider based on the reviewer experience. When I was starting TTRPG, I played his system and I felt some things were very heavy for beginners, overly complicated or required lots and lots of practice to get it right. He dismissed my feedback by saying I had too little experience and I'll see with time . 10 years later, I still feel the same. Every feedback however the background of the player is good to hear. Sometimes you have to dig deeper to find the real problem behind the feedback, but if someone has a bad feeling on something, it usually is something to ponder
Yea building a system is not easy and even moreso if it's based on anything like one I'm working on is based on the FF series so I have to keep to the thimes of the series but also make it not so complicated that it is hard to do with dice and basic math
All these points apply to basically any creative process, more or less. Quite interesting if you think about it. I for one always fail at a point I'd call "Too ambitious" I always have so many ideas I want to use, yet when it comes to actually applying them to paper, or a text document I fail at actually writing it down and staying commited to it. Many times have I started making a map that ultimately lead to nothing but unused space on my computers drive.
Testing is a Thing that never ends. I'm almost in Year 4 of working on my System and every Time something is changed or added it needs testdata. It is the gift that never stops giving.
Mistakes are inherently bad by their definition and very concept. What's the deal with this preschool rhetoric? Most of us are adults here or at the very least moderately literate to be interested in TTRPG in the first place. We know that permanent mistakes very much exist. We know that we make mistakes repeatedly even after we've learned our lessons just because that's just human nature. We know there's not always something new to be learned from mistakes.
The biggest design thing I picked up on while cannibalizing systems: Don't try and beat the powergamers at their own game. They will find a way to win at that. I was reworking the WEG SWD6 (with the eventual goal of porting it to other settings), and I had a couple players over the years that just broke everything. I thought about how to prevent the skill creep... and all it did was prevent players from expanding... except the powergamers, they were still making amazingly OP stuff. Somehow.
I would think, that the best counter, to bloating, in creating TTRPGs, would be, expansions; "you want to see what, added to spell casters? well, that is a great idea, but lets save that for a possible expansion, and just focus on nailing the core necessities." You can file away all those extra bits and bobs for future projects, aka expansions. Not only do you keep your core mechanics neat and clean, you have a plethora of ideas, to keep the game going, in the future.
That cumbersome, heavy solution is genius! Thank you.
I totally agree. XP to level 3 used a system that includes both weight and size into one number but I love cumbersome as a concept more.
"Character creation has 53 steps!!" 😅 That's how it felt making my first Pathfinder 2e character
Blows me away that pathfinder 2e players will INSIST that this is easier than 5e lmao
Pathfinder 2e is a cool as hell system don't get me wrong, but good lord the learning curve is brutal
Design is a journey like a campaign.
Guy, thank you very much for this video. It's giving me a better idea about what things I have to pay more attention to in the design of my TTRPG. And it makes me feel pretty calm knowing that it's not bad that I'm testing it for bugs so rigorously. Even though some of my friends say that it was ready to be playable for a long time.
Brillant! One of your best! Appreciate the humility that went into this!
I'm looking forward to Mage Hunter. I have a blind player, and they struggle with dice. A system without dice might make their life easier.
I cannot help but feel the Internet has become some kind of eldeitch entity prying and feeding on thoughts. I was just toying with some mechanics of a system I have been building when this popped up. I have to admit I had not even considered inventory yet. A very well timed and helpful video.
Good to know that there are people on your Discord server who are game testers. I need people other than my friends to test out my game when it's ready.
i find any thing that makes you reconsider things is good, because it makes you think and that helps make you a better GM
Keep it up i find these very insightful
I wish all game designers would use math when they test and balance their game. You don't have to use a LOT of math, basic algebra is as deep as you would need to go in most cases.
Abilities should have costs relative to their game effect. If every Feat, Edge, whatever, is to be worth 2 points, then design them to each be worth 2 points. And only 2 points. Many games get lazy with "fuzzy math" where some choices are inherently worth more for the same cost. A game should never do that. If it is worth more, it should cost more.
I love videos like this because I am making a ttrpg and this reminds me to keep within the bounds of the system I am making
That is very helpful. Bloat is annoying to me.
I just wanted to find a newer video to let you know something my friend. Thank you! Your "practical guide to becoming a great gm" book has been a massive help in my journey to create my own original world. And yes, I'm designing an entire planet from scratch. I can hear your voice as I read through it too. It really is a great tool to lead me in a better path to making a more cohesive story that everyone can enjoy. Thank you so much for everything you do for your audience
What about the Talisman RPG?? I picked it up but never got to play it. What's the big flaw Guy mentioned?
Congratulations, Guy! I've just started reading "The Practical Guide to Becoming a Great GM." I have your KS project saved, and hopefully I finish your first book before then. 😊🍻
It applies to TTRPG, but these are mistakes that apply to design / development in general ^^ The joys and sadnesses of creation :D
A quick addition to the great advice in this video.
When testing your mechanics (mechanisms?) there are three things you should look for.
1. Does the mechanism allow the character to accomplish the intended goal? For example does "unlock door"potentially end with an unlocked door.
This sounds obvious - it should be. If you're not delivering the goods with this point, you're failing hard.
Is it too obvious to require explanation? Perhaps, but I do recall paying for a commercial set of naval wargame rules.
The rules were full of detail, how to navigate, how to shoot your guns and torpedoes, extensive tables on the systems that could be damages by the guns and torpedoes with relevant reductions to movement and shooting.
The rules didn't contain and instructions on what would sink a ship.
Now for the less obvious pair.
2. Are the mechanics reasonable. Are big expensive locks like the ones on castle or bank doors harder to pick than the latch you find on a peasant's hut?
Are your numbers broken so some characters can open every lock with no effort?
Consider whether lock picking should be restricted to specialists, and require special tools, or whether everybody can have a go.
3. Are the mechanics playable. Does it take 30 minutes, a slide rule and a migraine to find out whether you picked the lock, or do you roll your dice, add a modifier and check a target mumber.
I assume you will want to do lots of fun things during your game session.
I also assume your players will all want a go, and don't want to be sitting about for an hour while one character picks a lock.
Try to make your mechanics as quick as possible.
I assure you, game friction, slow players and unexpected adventure events will add significantly to your anticipated playing time.
Great video! The journey for figuring out how you were going to handle inventory was especially good. Though I have to admit I kept getting distracted by the subtle cycling rainbow lighting from off to one side, like ‘wait, did Guy leave the chromatic orb on?’
I swithed off when you said "diceless".
Love this video! The ironic thing is right after your intro where you invite the viewers to learn from your mistakes, a new fast food item came up that can only describe as a mistake.
Hey Guy, thank you for getting me into GMing and allowing me to bypass my hurdle of pure melee hate. I've always been averse to playing a class that boils down to start turn>bonk>end turn>repeat. I was recently convinced by fellow players and a race to try out a Barbarian.
this has led me to make Aero Wildlight a one-armed Firbolg, a non-killing pacifist whom doesn't understand money as most naturally Firbolgs tend to be ignorant of it.
sadly this has led to people I show my character idea to answer with such things as "What? One-armed? But you NEED to use 2H weapons as barbarian or you are gimping your character and a hindrance to the team" or "Why would you handicap yourself early?" and "you MUST hoard money for better loot and stuff, not knowing about money is STUPID"
this has not deterred me from making and even getting art for this character, but I think it could be a great topic for you to bring up. both underused classes like firbolg's, and making characters with flaws or disadvantages.
Not only are they trustworthy... They sre probably working on their own stufd, and gain nothing by copying someone elses wholesale.
Sure they mighr take great bits... But hopefully you dod the same for your Design.
Mine is a mix of Numenera, Edge of the Empire, forbidden lands, ICRPG, Gloomhaven and probably more...
I always like it to learn from mistakes other people make, way better than making mistakes on my own. But if everything woks out without mistakes does not necessarily mean that people cannot still learn from it, but for our hobby that would mean if you would be correct, that most games award XP the wrong way, since usually it is gained for overcoming a challenge not for the failures to do so.
Regarding playtesting, that is why I think having power gamers around is important to find such crucial loop holes. And yes, I have also found issues in professional published RPGs, I would say nothing had so many game breaking options as the 3rd edition for L5R.
I definitely have also made descriptions too early in the past which did not survived later revisions. But I feel like bloat during the design is a problem, since part of the design process is to try things out, the important part is just to cut all the useless stuff at the end out again. Like the design saying goes, something not finished when you cannot add anything else to it, but it is finished when you cannot remove anything from it.
5 mistakes... first words I hear. "My diceless roleplaying system".
I mean... I found the biggest one.
I care about the small things. Having characters carrying around 50 different potions and nothing to store them is... stupid. Carrying around 500' of rope on your shoulder. Is stupid. Carrying 3 2-handed weapons, 1 large shield, 1 tower shield, and 4 or 5 medium sized weapons... is stupid.
If ANY game wants to do away with carrying capacity or encumbrance... do it with in-world reasoning. Everyone has limitless bag of holding or something else equally silly. Don't just ignore it.
And... make sure your enemies follow the same rules. So when they PC says I'm gonna fly, and you say the bbeg pulls out a staff of gravity and pulls you to the ground, and then they say ok I'm going to hide behind the boulder, so they pull their staff of boulder melting, and then they say ok I'm going to to run up and engage in melee... so they pull their staff of invulnerability... they can't complain. BBEG can have as many staffs as he wants cause tracking inventory is "boring". Because the NPCs get to carry around just as much gear and tactical options as players do.
Be interesting to see how "fair"/"logical"/"important" players think infinite storage is when all the enemies have it as well.
Scouting out and planning for the next mission is 1/2 the fun. Making DIFFICULT CHOICES and their impact on success and failure is a HUGE part of the game. Carrying around 5 different weapons that cover every possible situation is boring. And if you allow it in any system... those people BETTER be getting robbed on the regular. Seeing how they got soo much stuff that keeping track of it is "too difficult".
You do _not_ have legal recourse if people copy your game mechanics from a post on Discord. Heck, you don't have legal recourse from people copying your game mechanics in print, because game mechanics are not copyrighteable. What to do about that?
Nothing. "People will steal my ideas" Is a jubenile concern from unexperienced creators. Because: A) People have their own ideas they are passionate to be working on rather than yours. B) Your ideas are probably not industry-shattering innovations tbh. Leave your ego at the door. C) Products are not valued by "the idea" but rather by the work that's put into them. There are no million dollar ideas, because they can be so easily copied. Ideas are a dime a donzen if even that. D) They are gonna be copied anyway. They _should_ be copied if they are good. Embrace it. RPGs are an open creative medium that flourishes with the adoption of new, effective ideas. You benefit from that. You borrow good ideas from other games, let others do the same with your own creation and take pride in it.
Question: If a player wants to carry 6 oxcarts in his backpack, isn't it the game master's job to say ‘no’ and not the game designer's job to make a rule about it? I think it makes more sense for a role-playing game to leave some things open and let the players discuss and decide for themselves what is possible and what is not. Some mechanics even seem to invite players to find a way to abuse them that they might not have found if things were left to logical thinking. However, it is probably hard to decide which topics should be open for discussion and for which rules should be set.
Always useful, Guy. Very Interesting insights to your process. Thanks for posting.
I dont agree that you need to flesh out everything like your rent example. Even 5e has a bunch of items under Adventurers gear that has no description. People are allowed and should Think for themselves.
Very good video. Very insightful, some fully play tested wisdom.
Point 4 is something I fell into and it made it confusing. I recently got back into making the system and I stripped it back so much and only put the most basic idea of what things are for.
Guy, would you mind reducing the colour-changing rgb-light in your next video, in this recording it is a bit too distracting.
Thanks ♥️
A mistake I saw when a friend designed his TTRPG is choosing which feedback to consider based on the reviewer experience. When I was starting TTRPG, I played his system and I felt some things were very heavy for beginners, overly complicated or required lots and lots of practice to get it right. He dismissed my feedback by saying I had too little experience and I'll see with time . 10 years later, I still feel the same.
Every feedback however the background of the player is good to hear.
Sometimes you have to dig deeper to find the real problem behind the feedback, but if someone has a bad feeling on something, it usually is something to ponder
How would you handle pets? Pets are my bane... I really like the concept of the beastmaster, but it is a nightmare to do.
Thomas Daniel Hall Joseph Anderson Kimberly
I am reminded that Cairn 2e and Knave 2e are just more nuanced versions of simple systems. I figure it’s based on hardcore fan feedback…
Appreciate this insight, thank you. Did you go into the Talisman issue anywhere?
Yea building a system is not easy and even moreso if it's based on anything like one I'm working on is based on the FF series so I have to keep to the thimes of the series but also make it not so complicated that it is hard to do with dice and basic math
Is there a play test material out for mage hunter? Love to try?
43369 Brandt Throughway
How do you define the scope and goals of your game design?
All these points apply to basically any creative process, more or less. Quite interesting if you think about it. I for one always fail at a point I'd call "Too ambitious" I always have so many ideas I want to use, yet when it comes to actually applying them to paper, or a text document I fail at actually writing it down and staying commited to it. Many times have I started making a map that ultimately lead to nothing but unused space on my computers drive.
Johnson Helen Miller Angela Perez Paul
Great content. Thanks for sharing! 😊
Testing is a Thing that never ends. I'm almost in Year 4 of working on my System and every Time something is changed or added it needs testdata. It is the gift that never stops giving.
Your mistake #6... Being too awesome.
Great video. My mistakes are legendary!
What’s the music used in the outro?
Mistakes are inherently bad by their definition and very concept. What's the deal with this preschool rhetoric? Most of us are adults here or at the very least moderately literate to be interested in TTRPG in the first place. We know that permanent mistakes very much exist. We know that we make mistakes repeatedly even after we've learned our lessons just because that's just human nature. We know there's not always something new to be learned from mistakes.
Mistakes are not bad. It is good to make mistakes, because you learn from your mistakes.
@@jessicaalvis7063 This isn't reality. Don't make me repeat myself.
@@youcantbeatk7006 what the fuck are you talking about? This is about game design. The exact same principles apply.
The biggest design thing I picked up on while cannibalizing systems: Don't try and beat the powergamers at their own game. They will find a way to win at that. I was reworking the WEG SWD6 (with the eventual goal of porting it to other settings), and I had a couple players over the years that just broke everything. I thought about how to prevent the skill creep... and all it did was prevent players from expanding... except the powergamers, they were still making amazingly OP stuff. Somehow.
I would think, that the best counter, to bloating, in creating TTRPGs, would be, expansions; "you want to see what, added to spell casters? well, that is a great idea, but lets save that for a possible expansion, and just focus on nailing the core necessities." You can file away all those extra bits and bobs for future projects, aka expansions. Not only do you keep your core mechanics neat and clean, you have a plethora of ideas, to keep the game going, in the future.
Great video
Well now I have Seven Mary Three's Cumberson playing in my head...
Guy Schlanders is possibly the most D&D barkeep name I've ever heard.
Thank you this helps a lot. Once my game is done I'll definitely join the discord.
Amazingly helpful stuff
Im stealing that carryweight system
Super-useful practical advice. Thank you!
Great timps as always. Thank you!
Examples are great, but not to include in your literature until the mechanics are done. Use examples as a way to think through the mechanics.
13:39 I love these special sound FX you sprinkle on your videos