This is one of the most beautiful pieces of American art ever made. I was blown away that it was rated G because emotionally its so lovely, devastating and inspired. Theres a sensitivity in the films Walt worked on and a sense of soulfulness that I find unbelievably moving
at 20:36 my great uncle dan mcmanus is on the far right studying water with his fellow animators, he worked for Walt Disney from 1937 - 1977 in the special effects animation dept. :)
I even mention him in my video “Spending a Night on Bald Mountain” where I talk about the creation of the Night On Bald Mountain sequence in Fanatasia.
I remember as a kid, the “Elephants on Parade” both scared and bored me; now 30 something years later, I’m floored by its inventiveness and appreciate it more!
If someone does not cry at the baby mine scene that person has no heart.I lost my mother on January the 2nd and recently I watched dumbo and after that scene I was a physical wreck.
Eddie Campion, I'm so sorry to hear about your mother, it's always so hard losing someone so close to you. Sending good energy your way Eddie, may she rest in peace.
you have done a phenomenal job of posting this monumental work of Disney Craftsmen ......Thanks a lot buddy , LONG LIVE DISNEY , LONG LIVE DISNEY TRADITIONAL HAND DRAWN ANIMATION !!!
When I was a kid, I would spend every weekend at my grandparents house. They would pop this in the vcr, let me drink Pepsi and eat Oreos. Man, such great times!
I'm 25 and I cry at baby mine still...I have a son and another baby on the way. I showed dumbo to my son and I will to this one. I am a mother and I love my children so I couldn't imagine ever losing them. baby mine really makes you bawl your eyes out no matter what your age. even when I'm older and my kids grow up....I'll cry at it xxxx well done disney on a fab film
Dumbo has always been one of my favorite Disney films of all time! You see a loving mother trying to protect her baby when it’s discovered he is different from what the other elephants think is correct in their narrow mined hearts and minds. Yet the baby is rescued by some unlikely friends. I know today some people think it’s a terribly racist movie, but it is just the opposite. Dumbo is rejected by his own family and a mouse, traditionally a foe, becomes his foster father. Yes the crows are depicted as jive Men, but they become his friends when they learn how tough his life has been. It reminds me of the characters Charles Dickens wrote in Oliver Twist, how the pickpocket boys, and others are nicer to him than anybody else at that point in the story. Baby Mine is always a tear jerker too.
Watching the "Pink Elephants on Parade," I can understand why some people would think that the story artists were under the influence of something when they came up with it. (I know they most likely weren't, but if they had, it must have been something pretty dang GOOD!)
Jordan Briskin. To be honest, I don't think you can have a 'Trip' like seeing Pink Elephants on Parade if you were just completely smashed by being really drunk. Maybe the animators were eating Magic Mushrooms or LSD! Disney is actually scary, because although family films, many very young children watch them, but you've got kids smoking and drinking beer and shooting pool in Pinocchio, even one of the clocks has a drunken priest being represented and Gepetto's pocket watch depicts two men clinking beer glasses, they use getting drunk as being humorous in Sleeping Beauty and The Sword In The Stone and show two characters Dumbo and Timothy getting badly hung over, hence seeing the Pink Elephants. What message do they send out to kids really? Another travesty is the blatant racism, the Jim Crow used in Dumbo and the song sung at the beginning by the Roustabouts. Just read the lyrics! Shameful. It's the read why they won't release Song Of The South, because they've had so much backlash about their racist views.
"I've seen everything, when I see" this well-done and intriguing documenting of our learning to believe in themselves circus buddies. Stay safe everyone!
The cover of Time magazine which is seen between 26.31 and 26.34 was a caricature of Admiral Yamamoto. This man was the commander in chief of the Japanese Combined Fleet. He ordered the attack on Pearl Harbour without a prior declaration of war. The cover was created by Arthur Szyk, a great wartime artist who created many caricatures of the Axis leaders during WW2. Szyk was a European political and religious artist who emigrated to America in 1940.
I remembered that this movie is also in the program Once Upon a Studio. But the scene in which Mr. Stork is on the cloud and his delivery is sinking reminds me of the movie Mary Poppins.
Dumbo has never been one of my favourite Disney movies but I do recognize it is very beautiful and communicates a beautiful message against bullying and using elements of diversity as a point of strenght to succeed. I remember the Baby Mine didn't move me in the cartoon as a child tough I recognized it was very sad, but I watched the remake by Tim Burton and when that scene came on screen I completely burst into tears. It touched me far deeply than the animated version, as wella as the scene where dumbo gets separated from his mother and I think I will be lynched for saying that ahahahaha
John Canemaker is a great author of Disney research books. He wrote books about Walt Disney, Mary Blair, The Nine Old Men, Joe Grant As well as many Disney story people, artists and designers
He also is great with Tex Avery/MGM cartoon history, and I've known that ever since I saw the Tex Avery/MGM shorts documentary I saw on "The Mask" DVD.
"Dumbo" is a lovely movie; no way you can get through it without weeping. The sad thing about this account is that the "9 old men" thing gets trotted out again. We now know that women played a large part in working on "Dumbo," and it would nice to see one once in a while doing that work. They played a significant part in "Dumbo."
*very late comment* but honestly the animation in Dumbo is absolutely amazing considering how long ago it was, I wish Disney would make another movie in this "style" :)
Me too. Even now in my 30s, whenever Im having a shitty day, I watch one of the classics. I've never stumbled upon "Making Of" and I've been binge watching them all week 😅☺
3:58 indisputably true. I was picked on and teased throughout much of my life because I didn’t fit in and had to go through a divorce where I was torn away from my mom and couldn’t always see her.
If the scene where Dumbo gets rocked by his mother's trunk while she's locked up (because she defended him from humiliation) didn't make you cry your eyes out...you're lying.
The crows being "controversial" nowadays is sad. People shouldn't be so sensitive. They were good characters, they were one of the only ones who help Dumbo. They put effort into that to make it fun and there is nothing wrong with that old-fashioned black American style. I like it.
I am to this day trying to understand what is SO terribly wrong with those crows, there were looney tunes and tom and jerry cartoons portraying way worse stereotypes
In the new movie, we can expect the crows to be gone and if they do even acknowledge segregation existed, it will be some white people portrayed as the savoirs.
This is so true. I saw Dumbo when I was a child and took the crows as hipsters and the smartest, most insightful characters in the story. Their song was SO witty, and, hey, the Magic Feather! Need one say more?
I watched dumbo many times and after my mum passed away I watched it again soon after.The scene where dumbos mum sings baby mine I was crying like a baby
It's a shame Ward Kimball didn't animate one of the crows doing the moonwalk; back then, it was known as "the Buzz." But by my guess, all the animators at Disney (including Walt himself) probably wouldn't even know what the Buzz was. And even if they DID know, they would seem to believe that animating a character doing a "backwards slide walking dance" like the moonwalk would be impossible to draw.
No it isn’t why do y’all say that! It was based on the book by Helen Aberson and Harold Pearl! The reason why Mrs. Jumbo name was Mother Ella in the novel, they changed it because they wanted to nod to the circus elephant
I love Dumbo but just like The Fox And The Hound, I can't rewatch it. Some scenes just break my heart. On another note, I cant believe the crows are taken out of the cartoon today because they're considered racist. I'm European and was a kid when I first saw it, and I distinctly remember while watching those scenes thinking "my God, they're pretty much the only characters I've ever seen with such ease in the way they speak, and so much style and beautiful voices." I spoke no English back then too.They gave little Dumbo everything he needed; belief in himself, optimism, humor and laughter. Honestly second to the mouse, they are the most important characters. The pink elephant sequence scared the living shit outta me & remember thinking there's no way everyone that comes to our house especially for the Christmas party sees all this when they drink 🤣🤣
I can remember watching "Dumbo. Also I know that World War 2 started when "Pinoccho" was in production at Walt Disney Studios. I think "Dumbo" was in production; when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor but I'm not positive. I saw the movie once when I was little back in the 1990 on VHS or my mom rented it for me. Why did Disney movies start to get more complicated , and why was Walt distance from his animators after the Dumbo movie was released on VHS?
Part of what I like about the character is his lack of speech. Just like Dopey in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. It just adds a certain special something to him. Talking would reduce his appeal for me. I can't speak for others but this is my feelings on it.
about the crows, I don't think it was the way they spoke or moved that sparks controversy. It's the fact that they were depicted as crows when Jim Crowe laws were still a thing. Fucked up? A lil bit but they're still my favorite characters and their song is still a bop.
This the first movie where there talking about disabled people being different I don't think they realize what they they where getting into I don't think won't even knew he was talking about that I think it's something you wanted to do to be different than anything he was doing
Sometimes, a movie like *Dumbo* doesn't need the title character to talk at all. A true Disney story like *Dumbo* only needs the subtlety of emotion and feeling where some animal characters don't need to talk.
Well They Did It On A Budget That's Because Pinocchio And Fantasia Didn't Make Enough Money Due To The European Market Being Cut Off By Hitler's Expansion In Poland And France
exactly back then DISNEY KNEW magic and how to entertain children and parents now DISNEY movies suck and why BLU RAY its same movie as DVD just get better features
This is one of the most beautiful pieces of American art ever made. I was blown away that it was rated G because emotionally its so lovely, devastating and inspired. Theres a sensitivity in the films Walt worked on and a sense of soulfulness that I find unbelievably moving
Of all the DIsney classics & characters, I have to say Dumbo is my favorite of all.
at 20:36 my great uncle dan mcmanus is on the far right studying water with his fellow animators, he worked for Walt Disney from 1937 - 1977 in the special effects animation dept. :)
Kyky Magnusson Wow that's amazing, lucky you!
I even mention him in my video “Spending a Night on Bald Mountain” where I talk about the creation of the Night On Bald Mountain sequence in Fanatasia.
Your great uncle drew the prison bar shadows on Mrs. Jumbo when she’s swaying back and forth. MacManus didn’t do anymore work after Robin Hood (1973).
How cool!❤️
Frances Jacobs before he retired he wasn’t credited i believe but he did draw the bees from winnie the pooh in 1977 after that he retired
I remember as a kid, the “Elephants on Parade” both scared and bored me; now 30 something years later, I’m floored by its inventiveness and appreciate it more!
Oh they scared the crap outta me when I was a kid 😅
Yes!!!
If someone does not cry at the baby mine scene that person has no heart.I lost my mother on January the 2nd and recently I watched dumbo and after that scene I was a physical wreck.
Why would you cry over A Disney Lullaby, Nutty!
Eddie Campion, I'm so sorry to hear about your mother, it's always so hard losing someone so close to you. Sending good energy your way Eddie, may she rest in peace.
it's definitely my 3rd saddest Disney moment
Eddie Campion i
Eddie Campion when I was younger Mickel Crawford made me bawling my eyes out when he started singing Baby mine
Timothy and the crows are such underrated Disney characters
I love the crows but people might think I'm a racist for saying that.
I always found it interesting how this was one of the first main characters *not* to speak. Very effective.
That film always makes me cry my eyes out. 😢
Erin Beattie me too i’d be bawling my eyes out at Baby Mine
Me to 😩it’s soo terrible sad
you have done a phenomenal job of posting this monumental work of Disney Craftsmen ......Thanks a lot buddy , LONG LIVE DISNEY , LONG LIVE DISNEY TRADITIONAL HAND DRAWN ANIMATION !!!
Disney handrawn animation died in 2013
@@leocovitz1847 What do you call cuphead then?
Dumbo was my first movie I watched as a baby and it has been my favorite Disney movie, and favorite movie altogether.
Mine too.
When I was a kid, I would spend every weekend at my grandparents house. They would pop this in the vcr, let me drink Pepsi and eat Oreos. Man, such great times!
I'm 25 and I cry at baby mine still...I have a son and another baby on the way. I showed dumbo to my son and I will to this one. I am a mother and I love my children so I couldn't imagine ever losing them. baby mine really makes you bawl your eyes out no matter what your age. even when I'm older and my kids grow up....I'll cry at it xxxx well done disney on a fab film
Cinderella (1950) reminds me of Dumbo (1941).
Dumbo has always been one of my favorite Disney films of all time! You see a loving mother trying to protect her baby when it’s discovered he is different from what the other elephants think is correct in their narrow mined hearts and minds. Yet the baby is rescued by some unlikely friends. I know today some people think it’s a terribly racist movie, but it is just the opposite. Dumbo is rejected by his own family and a mouse, traditionally a foe, becomes his foster father. Yes the crows are depicted as jive Men, but they become his friends when they learn how tough his life has been. It reminds me of the characters Charles Dickens wrote in Oliver Twist, how the pickpocket boys, and others are nicer to him than anybody else at that point in the story. Baby Mine is always a tear jerker too.
Thank you, everyone involved in this documentary, including the uploader. I have a newfound perspective and admiration for this wonderful movie.
I can't believe Disney hired Tim Burton to remake this already beautiful and emotional film.
And it flopped very hard, thankfully!
Dumbo has great music score.
yep
Pink Elephants on Parade is the scariest song I've ever heard. Gives me chills everytime I watch Dumbo. Such an amazing movie. :)
Watching the "Pink Elephants on Parade," I can understand why some people would think that the story artists were under the influence of something when they came up with it. (I know they most likely weren't, but if they had, it must have been something pretty dang GOOD!)
Jordan Briskin. To be honest, I don't think you can have a 'Trip' like seeing Pink Elephants on Parade if you were just completely smashed by being really drunk. Maybe the animators were eating Magic Mushrooms or LSD! Disney is actually scary, because although family films, many very young children watch them, but you've got kids smoking and drinking beer and shooting pool in Pinocchio, even one of the clocks has a drunken priest being represented and Gepetto's pocket watch depicts two men clinking beer glasses, they use getting drunk as being humorous in Sleeping Beauty and The Sword In The Stone and show two characters Dumbo and Timothy getting badly hung over, hence seeing the Pink Elephants. What message do they send out to kids really? Another travesty is the blatant racism, the Jim Crow used in Dumbo and the song sung at the beginning by the Roustabouts. Just read the lyrics! Shameful. It's the read why they won't release Song Of The South, because they've had so much backlash about their racist views.
"Baby Mine" makes me cry every time I watch that scene, and "Pink Elephants on Parade" still creeps me out.
"I've seen everything, when I see" this well-done and intriguing documenting of our learning to believe in themselves circus buddies. Stay safe everyone!
The cover of Time magazine which is seen between 26.31 and 26.34 was a caricature of Admiral Yamamoto. This man was the commander in chief of the Japanese Combined Fleet. He ordered the attack on Pearl Harbour without a prior declaration of war. The cover was created by Arthur Szyk, a great wartime artist who created many caricatures of the Axis leaders during WW2. Szyk was a European political and religious artist who emigrated to America in 1940.
I remembered that this movie is also in the program Once Upon a Studio. But the scene in which Mr. Stork is on the cloud and his delivery is sinking reminds me of the movie Mary Poppins.
Dumbo really makes my eyes sweating. Every single time. I cannot control it. Seeing Dumbo cry gets me sooo bad.... 😭😭😭😢😢😢💕💕💕
I really love the classic disney cartoon movies they are still so beautiful and the stories are amazing 😍
Dumbo has never been one of my favourite Disney movies but I do recognize it is very beautiful and communicates a beautiful message against bullying and using elements of diversity as a point of strenght to succeed. I remember the Baby Mine didn't move me in the cartoon as a child tough I recognized it was very sad, but I watched the remake by Tim Burton and when that scene came on screen I completely burst into tears. It touched me far deeply than the animated version, as wella as the scene where dumbo gets separated from his mother and I think I will be lynched for saying that ahahahaha
I love these behind the scenes looks, thanks for uploading!
John Canemaker is a great author of Disney research books. He wrote books about Walt Disney, Mary Blair, The Nine Old Men, Joe Grant As well as many Disney story people, artists and designers
Walt Disney is my inspiration... always
John Canemaker is a great Disney historian and author I have his book about
"Walt Disney's nine old men and the art of animation" and I love it.
He also is great with Tex Avery/MGM cartoon history, and I've known that ever since I saw the Tex Avery/MGM shorts documentary I saw on "The Mask" DVD.
"Dumbo" is a lovely movie; no way you can get through it without weeping. The sad thing about this account is that the "9 old men" thing gets trotted out again. We now know that women played a large part in working on "Dumbo," and it would nice to see one once in a while doing that work. They played a significant part in "Dumbo."
The book that Dumbo was based on was written by a daughter of Russian immigrants
Dumbo is my favorite Disney movie! 🐘🍿❤️
That micky stuffed animal with the large empty black disk eyes always creeped me out.
*very late comment* but honestly the animation in Dumbo is absolutely amazing considering how long ago it was, I wish Disney would make another movie in this "style" :)
Agreed
Me too. Even now in my 30s, whenever Im having a shitty day, I watch one of the classics. I've never stumbled upon "Making Of" and I've been binge watching them all week 😅☺
You REALLY wish Disney would make another movie?
You know, I still cry today when I hear the song "Baby Mine" from Dumbo.
On the DVD of this movie, there are 2 bonus cartoons which are silly symphonies. The silly symphonies are Elmer Elephant and The Flying Mouse.
Very Interesting Dumbo is a real classic
3:58 indisputably true. I was picked on and teased throughout much of my life because I didn’t fit in and had to go through a divorce where I was torn away from my mom and couldn’t always see her.
If the scene where Dumbo gets rocked by his mother's trunk while she's locked up (because she defended him from humiliation) didn't make you cry your eyes out...you're lying.
Still cry my eyes out whenever "Baby mine" plays on any radio or tv show or movie. Not ashamed one bit even at almost 22 :)
The crows being "controversial" nowadays is sad. People shouldn't be so sensitive. They were good characters, they were one of the only ones who help Dumbo. They put effort into that to make it fun and there is nothing wrong with that old-fashioned black American style. I like it.
I am to this day trying to understand what is SO terribly wrong with those crows, there were looney tunes and tom and jerry cartoons portraying way worse stereotypes
In the new movie, we can expect the crows to be gone and if they do even acknowledge segregation existed, it will be some white people portrayed as the savoirs.
This is so true. I saw Dumbo when I was a child and took the crows as hipsters and the smartest, most insightful characters in the story. Their song was SO witty, and, hey, the Magic Feather! Need one say more?
Yeah
I love the crows!
I just love the train.
Love behind the scenes ❤❤ Love this movie ❤❤
4:42 Best name ever
Richard P. Huemer sounds like an older version of Rex from Toy Story. He should be the voice of Rex's dad in a Toy Story special.
"Chapter 11, Casey Jones Jr" that's where the train came from.
Probably when I think about it, Is one of the reasons I have always loved Elephants.
I cry every single time in this film within the first 20 minutes :( I love it haha!
Who is cutting onions here? Damn....😰😰😰😰😰😰
ua-cam.com/video/wRFXLiYC9IM/v-deo.html
its the only Disney that makes me cry
STING GODS WRESTLER Just this one? Not Bambi? They ALL make me cry.
The Lion King
Dumbo
Tarzan
Bambi
Bambi makes me weepy too. When he's alone in the falling snow, calling for his mother. I get a little choked up just thinking about it.
I watched dumbo many times and after my mum passed away I watched it again soon after.The scene where dumbos mum sings baby mine I was crying like a baby
It's a shame Ward Kimball didn't animate one of the crows doing the moonwalk; back then, it was known as "the Buzz."
But by my guess, all the animators at Disney (including Walt himself) probably wouldn't even know what the Buzz was. And even if they DID know, they would seem to believe that animating a character doing a "backwards slide walking dance" like the moonwalk would be impossible to draw.
19:06-Pink Elephants on Parade
26:34 = Noooooo! - Dumbo's Fans
In fact Dumbo was based on the story of Jumbo the elephant
No it isn’t why do y’all say that! It was based on the book by Helen Aberson and Harold Pearl! The reason why Mrs. Jumbo name was Mother Ella in the novel, they changed it because they wanted to nod to the circus elephant
funny how the golen age was during the depression
I love Dumbo but just like The Fox And The Hound, I can't rewatch it. Some scenes just break my heart. On another note, I cant believe the crows are taken out of the cartoon today because they're considered racist. I'm European and was a kid when I first saw it, and I distinctly remember while watching those scenes thinking "my God, they're pretty much the only characters I've ever seen with such ease in the way they speak, and so much style and beautiful voices." I spoke no English back then too.They gave little Dumbo everything he needed; belief in himself, optimism, humor and laughter. Honestly second to the mouse, they are the most important characters. The pink elephant sequence scared the living shit outta me & remember thinking there's no way everyone that comes to our house especially for the Christmas party sees all this when they drink
🤣🤣
Classic Disney
I remember this movie and both versions of it are on Disney plus.
I love Dumbo its so touching
History of art
I like the crows lol.
This movie was made and completed by the people at diner who did not strike
Does anyone know where to find the 102-page script outline with chapters?
I love a disney film dumbo and live action as well my favourite character in this movie is Timothy the mouse
I like Dumbo!
And so the real fun begins at 1:12.
I can remember watching "Dumbo. Also I know that World War 2 started when "Pinoccho" was in production at Walt Disney Studios. I think "Dumbo" was in production; when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor but I'm not positive. I saw the movie once when I was little back in the 1990 on VHS or my mom rented it for me. Why did Disney movies start to get more complicated , and why was Walt distance from his animators after the Dumbo movie was released on VHS?
I know Dumbo is just a baby but just by curiosity, I wonder what it would be like if he ever talked in the movie?
Part of what I like about the character is his lack of speech. Just like Dopey in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. It just adds a certain special something to him. Talking would reduce his appeal for me. I can't speak for others but this is my feelings on it.
What word is that for the Pink Elephants sequence?
My ant Betty was a friend of Howard hues Walt Disney’s friend.
about the crows, I don't think it was the way they spoke or moved that sparks controversy. It's the fact that they were depicted as crows when Jim Crowe laws were still a thing. Fucked up? A lil bit but they're still my favorite characters and their song is still a bop.
There is not one inkling of evidence that harm was meant by it. Theres something called satire. Theyre really great
Baby Dumbo would 've looked cute in a disposable baby diaper.
This the first movie where there talking about disabled people being different I don't think they realize what they they where getting into I don't think won't even knew he was talking about that I think it's something you wanted to do to be different than anything he was doing
Just went to a circus today were they had elephants and they were NOT being mistreated in any way. it put me in the mood to see Dumbo again:)
That's great! Paranoid animal lovers can get on my nerves.
Dracorider 19 it's a same that PETA put the Ringling & Barnum circus out of business
5:11 The Marx Brothers AND Laurel And Hardy!!!!
They didn’t know that Pinocchio was dubbed to swedish in 1941.
I love dumbo
Craftsmanship. Yes, it is.
this is great!
Whats
s that shirt at 220? Reyn spooner,?
"Dick Humour" looool
A place to escape.
The pink elephants used to freak me out when I was little and refused to watch Dumbo for years afterwards because of it.
ikr
I used to be terrified of baby mine as well as the elephants from the age of 5 to the age of 12....no dumbo then xxx
Yey! Spanish and Portuguese... wait, they dubbed it in the forties!? huh... no wonder the recordings sound old.
This comment was stupid. Why the hell did I say this?!
amazing
+matthew eyre wow funny to see my comment again, this really is the best film ever (IMO)
Why do they call him Dumbo when an elephant never forgets?
Tear jerker ❤️
4:18 Hey! Wait a minute! Dumbo talked in the novel, but not in the film! Why didn't Disney make Dumbo talk in the film?!
Sometimes, a movie like *Dumbo* doesn't need the title character to talk at all. A true Disney story like *Dumbo* only needs the subtlety of emotion and feeling where some animal characters don't need to talk.
I've always wished Dumbo would speak though.
Sir Richard Langford II Well, maybe the reason why he doesn't talk is that since he's a "newborn" baby, he probably has not yet learned how to speak.
Why do you care?
Because! I've always wanted to hear Dumbo talk!
where was this video originally from?
It's from the 70th anniversary DVD bonus material.
What DVD copy of "Dumbo" has this?
+321SPONGEBOLT the 70th anniversary release DVD
How they made it in 1941?😮😱
Well They Did It On A Budget That's Because Pinocchio And Fantasia Didn't Make Enough Money Due To The European Market Being Cut Off By Hitler's Expansion In Poland And France
Makes sense
exactly back then DISNEY KNEW magic and how to entertain children and parents now DISNEY movies suck and why BLU RAY its same movie as DVD just get better features
I can see what you mean
Behind the scenes
Is that man really french??
And I like pinocchio as well xxx
Hollywood studio Disneyland Dumbo
From dumbo Disney dvd
nice
Yeah, mine too, mine too.
this is from the bluray right
The 70th Anniversary Blu-Ray From 2011
@@loganmosher5935 thought so
Makes sense since I have it now
@@watchforever1724 good
@@watchforever1724 so do I
Pretty decent film but definitely not one of my favorites though I can put it as an honorable mention