I'm sick of the "entitlement" argument. I'm a chef, I feed people every day. If I serve someone a shitty ham sandwich and charged them $15, they have every right to send it back and that's on me. Why is it, that as a gamer (my entire damn life) if I don't like a game I'm an entitled idiot? This pisses me off.
Agreed, this shit will never fly in the culinary industry. Why can't we complain if the video game product is shit? We have the RIGHT to complain if a product is broken, we the costumers deserve what we pay for.
Yup the industry and the media attacked the consumers first. The consumers jut reacted to being attacked and they then slapped the TOXIC label on all critics.
@Steve attack? I have yet to see one attack against developers and publishers, just bitching. While developers and publishers have attacked opponents, banning the top one. If the Gamers were attacking people, I've yet to see the molotov fly
I remember when the ME3 ending debacle was still going on, Michael Pachter had a video (back when he was still under gamefailers(.)com) where he lectured the audience for almost 10 minutes about how horrible and entitled gamers were for criticizing ME3's ending, and that they were the reason the industry loses talented people. He never addressed any of the complaints or criticisms about the ending, just a smug lecturing from an empty suit who likely doesn't even play games.
Honestly, I find it even more depressing how many people seemed to just accept the ending after the Extended Cut was released. I can go into detail of anyone wants to, but to keep it short from my perspective the extended cut addresses barely any of the major criticisms and actively adds new problems. And yet so many more people just seemed to accept that. The only praise i will give Bioware for the extended cut is that they tried, but their failure warrants every bit of criticism as the original version.
Tbh while the ending was meh. Gamers took on to completely fuck up the public's perception of Mass Effect. Instead of praising the game for what it was and criticizing the boring end everyone just completely destroyed the whole perception of an otherwise good game.
Vinzenz Rößle I haven’t played ME3, but I clearly remember that everyone who criticised the game only criticised the conclusion of the story. Most people felt let dow that such an awesomely complex story ended in such a bland and uninteresting way. While there were a few people that shat on the entire franchise just because of the ending, they were a small minority.
@@vinzcavallion1084 The ending is arguably the most important part of a game like ME, especially when it is a trilogy that is story driven. I never played ME3 so I cant comment on whether or not it was good. However, when I look at Game of thrones it had a good start and bad ending. Sounds like ME. Overall, GoT is an average show when taking into account both the good and the bad. You could argue that I'm being too harsh, faulting the show for its ending. However, the reason I continued to finish that series is purely to find out what happens at the end. Hence, why the emphasis on the ending and why overall it was a mediocre series. If the middle seasons like 4-6 were bad but they nailed the ending then the series would of been a good one. My guess is that critics of ME had a similar idea.
@@vinzcavallion1084 I never played ME3 tbh, but I did play the first 2 and as it turns out the ending is pretty damn important to a story driven series who's major selling point is your actions influencing the story and carrying over between games. I'm not surprised people sh*t all over it after investing 5 years and playing through 3 long games, only to be met with utter disappointment. I view it as being akin to Lost: the mystery, character and intrigue of that show were fantastic in the first few seasons, but the ending was so awful and rage inducing that I warn people to not bother investing their time into watching it in the first place.
The whole "toxic" fandom thing is not just in the video games games industry, it's rampant across the entertainment industry. It's not the majority or fans that are entitled. It's the corporations that are putting out crap content in games, movies, and TV ans expecting the public to eat it up no matter how bad it is with out complaint. If we the customers don't eat it up the corporate narrative in present day is to blame the customers. What other industry besides the entertainment industry can a bad product be made and the customers are blamed for not liking it.
Answer: just about nearly every single market in existence. Past, present and future. People are fanboyish to everything they like. From games to baby milk formulae.
@@francoiscoupal7057 While it's true fanbois will fanboi and defend companies, AMD fanbois are a great example, it seems like the only industry that the corporations are consistently attacking customers is the entertainment industry.
Can we throw the e-sports lot in there? You know that wave hasn't done shit for how games've been made that were originally intended for casual audiences. (Looking at you beloved fighting game series.)
> The actual "toxic"/"entitled" gamers are those that defend MTX's The game "Path of Exile" runs on MTX and there's quite literally NOTHING wrong with it. By saying what you said you're basically just the same wrong as what Bellular talked about in this video. You're generalizing and it's stupid to do. Period.
@veracsthane nah that's PR vomit. Its massive price gouging by selling assets a la carte. They've got you fooled. The only acceptable pricing models are flat priced complete games on day one and large expansions (CDPR model and how gaming was prior to this gen). Anything else is price gouging and a scam.
@veracsthane IMHO MTX are like Communism: They sound fine in theory, but in practice they're never implemented in a way that is good. They are an extrinsic factor applied to what should be an intrinsic experience: Playing the game. Even the most benign implementation of them is something that is done at the expense of the core game experience. And for every Path of Exile, there are hundreds of Battlefront2s and Shadows of Mordor.
@@manuakasam Thing is, PoE is one of the very very few that does it in a benign manner, and that is likely in part because they were one of the first F2P titles. The concept of inconveniencing people with limited bag space etc. which you pay a one-time fee and then the game plays like any premium title. Instead what most F2P and otherwise titles go for now is a permanently impaired state where giving them money is only a temporary relief and you pepper the gameplay loop in dopamine and RNG systems so they're never quite completely happy with where they are.
Worked in the restaurant industry for 8 years. To be honest, some of our customers were the most entitled, toxic people I've ever met. Especially when they're HANGRY
@@megadethrocks1239 exactly. And even if you can't, that's when you can be like "next meal on us" or similar situations depending on what's going on. I would say the exceptions are the ones that habitually come in and gripe about the food, eat it all, and then be like "this was horrible, we're not paying!"
@@Syndicate.Harbor yeah happens all the time, and i think that is how ea and all of those companies think of the whole gamer crowd who says anything. You don't tell patrons to eat what i half cooked
@@Syndicate.Harbor Holyshit, the "We eat it all and it is horrible. We not paying". Happen so often, especially delivery business at not so good area. Or just not have money/not enough money when we show up. Hoping we will give them the food.
Worked at a Costco in my early work life for almost 4 years, couldn't believe the people, or that I lasted that long while being a full time student most of the time. Middle aged women freaking out over the store not having paper towels with prints on them was a common occurrence. Bitching about waiting in line on the weekend for free food samples of products they weren't planning on buying anyway. Despite a trashcan at the end of almost every isle, the amount of food sample wrappings and garbage laying on the products and the floor was horrifying. The list is endless really. Those people were actually pigs. I have never behaved that way in my life. But in hindsight, I am 100% glad I had that experience and I think it should be mandatory for people to have worked customer service before utilizing it. I suspect many of these types of people haven't.
Especially when said product was often either A) Misrepresented by marketing materials or B) A clear and present downgrade from previous installments solely for the sake of extracting extra money out of people dedicated to that IP.
No... Threatening the lives of developers over delays, bugs, etc. is toxic. The fact that so many Gamers(TM) also just happen to be fucking trolls anyways is why the whole community gets slapped with the toxic label. Doesn't matter the game, if there is a mp mode, there will be toxic players.
No it's cause people being really toxic and exaggerate the whole situation and cross the line even if they are unhappy.. ''Gamers'' are known for taking things to serious...
@Steve If in 25 years of interactions with a specific group/class of people you have had mostly bad experiences, then maybe it's you that's the problem and not them. Compared to all the good experiences and friendships I've had with people all over the world playing games like WoW and PSO, I can basically count the number of bad experiences on one hand. Every year so many game communities come together to do great things, whether it be raising money for a hospital, or raising awareness for some disease or natural disaster. I'd honestly be willing to bet "Gamers" have have done more good for the world than any other hobby group has. If people are upset about something that is so near and dear to them, that it is for all intents and purposes their life, they have the right to be upset. And while there are gamers who take their rightfully justified displeasure and go a bit(or sometimes a lot) further than they should with it, so too are there non-gamers who do the same. At there end of the day, people are people irregardless of whatever tags they associate themselves by, and all people have the capacity to be toxic and wonderful alike.
Gamer - This game sucks, can I have a refund? Entitled "AAA" Company - You didn't like our game? WTF? Are you a racist or something? You probably hate women. You're toxic. Gamer - Ummmmmmmm. What? Never mind I'll just go play something else instead of dealing with entitled weirdos who deflect and call other people entitled and toxic. Stop giving these weirdos your money. They don't care about you, they care about milking you. Plus their egos are so small now that they won't be willing to fix their games. They even go back now and ruin their old games. There is some level of humility required to admit something you created might suck and requires work. Most of these gaming companies have been filled with people who are incapable of that. Plus if they make something which sucks, then it requires money and time to fix it. Why do that when you can just not do that if you think you can? They are the entitled and toxic group. F them. They literally think their poop doesn't stink.
unfortunately most ppl are just too dumb to get that and keep feeding the ppl that do all that bunch of morons that dont know whats in their best interest
This is all super complicated shit. Games are made by a developer. But funded by the publisher. This shouldnt be a problem but the publisher is pulling all the strings by measuring everything vs the financial cost and its return. They have been pushing for years at full speed cutting anything they can to increase profit and its slowly been adding up. Now that all the easy shit to abuse is done, they are moving on to things that they shouldnt be fucking with. But the problem is the Publisher and the people that run it, are business people, who only care about dollars. In business its about bringing return for your investors. Universal Constant Gains cause these stupid fucks to do dumb shit. ALL THESE PEOPLE CARE ABOUT IS MAKING MORE MONEY THEN LAST QUARTER. And there is nothing wrong with a company trying to become as efficient as possible. But when it start to come at the cost of the product? or the service to the fans? They need to step back and realize that money is coming from the future. Part of me worries that these cunts know this, and their plan is to merge/go bankrupt and start another company that doesnt have that evil history. To milk this industry as hard as they can for as much as they can and just leave/close when things stop functioning. I vote with my wallet and fucking hate Bobby Kotick (I dont wish him any harm... he is just doing his job. But he is a piece of shit for caring so much about money that he doesnt care about destroying an industry)
Gamers have every reason to be angry, given events over the last several years. False advertising releasing unfinished garbage at full price day one DLC etc etc. These terms are just another pathetic attempt by the so called triple A developers to continue to justify the non stop stream of garbage we have seen over the last several years.
@Steve So gamers can't be mad because other gamers buy the dlc? Fuck bro, I guess If someone cheats in my Counter Strike game, I can't really be mad at him because a human made the cheat, and I am a human too.
@Capt’n Crims The guy complaining about this, Isn't the same fucking guy pre ordering the newest Cod and fifa day one. How do you have problems comprehending this? Like, you are literally grouping all gamers into one category. Why? Obviously the people that complain about these companies releasing unfinished, day one dlc, and other crap, aren't the same ones buying the newest NHL every year.
James Manley toxicity is a blunt instrument easy to be misconstrued as well as lumped together with others you may disagree with but share a similar focus. You can champion being seen as “toxic” individually, but its naive to think thats the only definition applied when labelled that way. Additionally defending that point without bothering to define unsaid differences is near intentional misrepresentation of the issue you’re voicing an opinion or taking a stand about. But hey... it’d look good on a t-shirt....
Ditch the "consumer" mentality. It's a trick to fool people into becoming sheeps that keep on buying. A consumer consumes. A customer has some fucking standards.
I think I actually agree with you the most. This subject is way broader, yet deeper than what some are realizing and solutions won't be as simple. "Nerds" have always seemed to be easy targets: Everything from video games nerds to DnD nerds, and the moment you express interest in one or the other, you immediately get lumped in that group. On the flip side, even though there have been many products this past decade that got WAY over-hyped, I think there are also titles out there that people didn't see the face value of. Regardless, there's WAY more going on than even what this video and the comments are talking about. The question though is, how to fix this?
4:53 - This section is poignant to the discussion of "the media bubble" in the games industry. I remember while I was doing my BTEC to help me get onto a Games Computing Degree Course (which I've now completed & doing another course at another uni) at uni watching GamerGate happen and seeing this exact thing happen but on a massive scale - where the gutter consists of large harassment campaigns and repeated bomb & death threats to key figures & events on both sides that still occur to this day. It doesn't help when it's being done for cultural (& arguably political) reasons too. 8:00 - I would say considering the actions taken by fans when their franchise is messed with by the publishers in a disrespective manner (like Diablo Immortal) this leans towards being true, especially when comparing fans of a book & film series (eg: harry potter) or a TV series (eg: Dr Who) and comparing to fans of Games. Sure there's always a portion of super fans who will do everything possible, however, I'd argue that there's a larger percentage of that sort of dedication within fandoms for video games. Heck, look at the Smash Bros Community: Their reactions to character reveals ( & even mii outfits like Sans & Cuphead), their attitude to when big events happen in their community (eg: Etika's death), their dedication to being amazingly good at the game, & so on. I'd argue that this comes from the fresh experiences Games provide when playing them. Whether it's with friends, online, streaming, in videos, etc. Games can provide unique experiences each time they're launched. The content you & your team have produced has been the most balanced and fair I've seen for a long while and I'm glad it exists as it means I don't have to go to depressing media sites that'll continue to perpetuate the whole "Evil Gamers" narrative for their own desires, clout & twitter clicks. Honestly, it feels like they make the stuff just to get people angry half the time and it's really depressing. Overall this video hits on the points that need to be made so well and in an informative and friendly fashion & I really enjoyed it. Thank you for making it. :)
Half the time? All the time. As was said earlier in the comments: There's no sure-fire way to more clicks better than incendiary titles driving hate-clicks.
I was complaining to a friend about how the grocery store was charging 2x the cost of name-brand milk compared to the store brand milk... she called me a "Toxic Dairy Consumer" :'(
Thats fucked up.... The store should offer both products..... at a reasonable cost. To make it a non choice by purposely cranking the price of the brand milk, I agree 100% with you, that they are abusing the customers for their own gain. A stupid short sighted gain in the short run. I would stop buying milk there personally :) You have a right to think that is fucked up
7:36 - "Why does gaming get this treatment?" First, it isn't just gaming. Table top games have gotten it, pen and paper RPGs fandoms have gotten it, sports fandoms have gotten it, comic fandom has gotten it, metal fandom has gotten it, just to name several that I am aware of. Fandoms like those surrounding, say.... Twilight... don't get it. Do people look askance at the fans of Twilight? Yes. Do they call those fans toxic because of their high levels of exuberance? No. Wonder if there is a pattern there? Hopefully, someone could review those, and other fandoms which get the label of toxic, to see what it could be. I don't have the time right now. Though, if pressed I could. Even with my busy schedule. Maybe someone with more time could take up the task? Anyone at all could do it. Lessons could be learned if we could noodle out the cause. Even if those who need to learn the lessons are the most prone to ignore it. Somehow, I imagine those in the media bubbles would just dismiss whatever pattern someone could find.
Well, here's the thing about entitlement: we are customers who expect a product to be well-crafted. We're paying $60+ per title and we want our money's worth. We don't want to be saddled with games-as-a-service. We don't want to have DLC or microtransactions shoved down our throat. We want a full, well-crafted game. We understand that these companies have to make money but they seem to forget that they have to provide a product worth purchasing. We don't HAVE to buy everything that they crap on a platter - they're entitled in thinking that we OWE them our hard-earned money and should shut up after buying their product. Any developer or publisher who actively paints their consumer base as toxic and entitle needs to be fully boycotted because they clearly don't take their craft seriously and see it as a hobby for man-children with a disposable budget. Social media influencers who parrot this toxic gamer narrative are corporate shills who know that their channel can't survive without the sponsorship of the publishers and developers, so they can kick rocks too. If they threaten to stop developing for the PC or preferred target platform, so be it. If they're churning out garbage, then good riddance and good luck with fooling another market into buying your low-effort nonsense.
I blame how the rise in the corporate hierarchy works on this. Marketing people go up. Not product people. They start making decisions over the product, Ruin said product, complain about their buyers being at fault. Loot at apple after jobs died.... Same thing in gaming. Publishers go up products go down. Gamers are now "Consumers" and "entitled".
I dont think its Marketing that is the issue. Marketing advertises the product with the budgets they are allowed. Ultimately it is the CEOs that need more and more money to show their investors. Universal Constant Gains has to fizzle out eventually. And when you take all the money out of the easy shit, they start looking towards the core product and thinking about ways they could manipulate/change it to make more money. And they are starting to look at some goofy shit. The idea that they think they can control NVidea from allowing us to stream OUR games, we OWN, is disgusting. These greedy corporate losers only see a potential revenue stream, instead of realizing that it would be double charging. You want to open a streaming service that charges per month? and allows you access to hundreds of games? That would work. But the idea that you want me to repurchase on that streaming service? What a fucking joke.
Gaming industry was the first one to take their fan base as granted, not the other way around. I myself study economics at the university in Finland, and all the usual marketing/customer service protocols are mostly flushed down the toilet. In no other industry (So far as i know) has the common sense like "keep your customer happy -and they will come back" been so twisted as i've seen triple AAA -studios treat their customers and still expect them to buy their products. It's the weirdest thing with the entertaiment, that people will still buy the games if the next one is good even if they got obviously scammed by the marketing or by the product itself.
Are you going to talk about Magic the Gathering"mmo" that's a massive let down by the gameplay and they took down anything refering it as an mmo after getting flamed online for it.
The way wizards of the coast has operated this last decade. It shouldn't come as a shock they are a terrible company with terrible people. I'm surprised that they could get people to code a functional game.
I disagree "toxic gamer" isn't a thing. Is it overblown? Yes. Do other subsectors have toxicity? Yes. The real problem is people conflate publishers and developers trying to cover their asses by co-opting issues for their convenience and defense against criticism. VS gamers acting like shit heads and collectively harassing people. You yourself pointed out the issue of when an audience goes from simple "fan" to an "identity". Gamer has been a longstanding identity, long before it became an official label, it was a refuge for a lot of kids who were stuck on the fringe. But as a result "Gamers" do over react and by your own admonition tend to react passionately and often times that reaction can be very immature or straight up malicious. And yes, the publishers are guilty of being assholes too and gamers are entitled to being treated well. If a publisher actively stokes their fanbases' passions and makes them love their games. It's their fault for thinking that they can pull a fast one on fans by exploiting fan loyalty to make a quick buck. It's the double edged sword of building a dedicated fanbase. You build expectations.
Some devs seem to pull out the ‘entitled’ and ‘toxic’ cards very quickly, maybe they feel that the people they’re talking down to and generally insulting were never going to buy their game anyway but what about future projects? Short term thinking rules it seems.
I remember back when gaming media reviewed, wrote on and concerned themselves with games. Seems to me the problem is less with ''Gamers'' and more with some within gaming media forgetting what it is that they are, what they're meant to do.
Certain Devs, and Publishers, like to toss the labels of, "toxic, entitled, Gamers", because then they do not have to own up to putting out crap. "We did the best we could, it is just those, "entitled Gamers", that are saying the game is bad. They are the ones that have these unwarranted expectations, not our misleading marketing materials."
It's so refreshing on this day and age to have a channel like yours folks. Keep it up and thank you! Plus, I can't wait to see what you have been developing.
Haha wow, I remember that boycott MW2 steam group at 1:55, and what a joke it turned out to be! 90%+ of the people in there were playing MW2 on launch day, at the time I felt like a fool for actually sticking to my guns and not buying it! That ended up being one of the most significant events that showed me how ineffective the modern outrage culture is: Whether its anger over things like Blitzchung or shady microtransactions like lootboxes, the vast majority of people who get angry and make threats over these things never actually do anything about it. Unfortunately the corporate companies have figured this out, which is why they only give insincere apologies and never change.
Thats ok! Even if people caved and purchased, they learned something. And the more and more this goes on, the more people who will change sides. I LOVE all Call of Duty games. I quit at Black Ops 2 because of certain things and havent went back. In fact the guy I play games with every day for the last 5 years, just bought the new one and has been gone for 30 days? Fuck Activision.
So many counter examples exist... Congrats! You are part of the information bubble Bell just mentionned in his video. Just on the other side of the fence.
The average gamer just wants Devs to give them quality good games that are not just cash grabs. Don't scam your players, don't be Greedy with your monetization and don't release games unfinished.
This was a good watch and very relevant to today's gaming industry. In my experience people that feel the need to claim moral superiority over others tend to have some serious flaws in their own personalities they refuse to acknowledge. In many cases all these people are doing is feeding their Communal Narcissism. Sites that expound these types of pieces tend to have the same traits; namely publishing long, shallow, vapid pieces full of buzz words that don't really tell you much, but leave you feeling like you've wasted your time. The comment sections are then full of applaud and adulation by the same people or even their own staff with one person trying to be more profound than the other. Furthermore, these sites are short-sighted in their business goals because not only do they only appeal to the minority, the message they send tends to get lost in the noise after time. This can be evidenced by the extremely aggressive ad campaigns some of these sites have implemented. Obviously, revenue is not where it needs to be. The interesting thing is instead of actually fixing the content (which is the actual problem), they've decided to hurt their already low-number of readers by creating an unwelcoming experience. To be fair, not all sites are like this though and there are some that give good coverage to games. I feel sorry for these sites, because although they tend to actually represent 99% of the game community, they are not the ones that tend to be discussed often.
The way you guys actually do exactly that, try an educate people on the things that are going on in these big gaming news stories is exactly why I rang that bell and really watch every video you guys put out now. Your format and dedication are very much appreciated! Thank you for the great work and content!
I really enjoyed this particular video. I watch your news bits everyday, but this one really pointed out the main issues I have with mainstream media. Great job on this particular vid!
I agree. I really think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the games industry is pretty un-regulated compared to other industries, and the companies take advantage of that. The "entitlement" tag is thrown around in a lot of cases where anti-consumer practices appear.
HOLY SHIT YEAH THERES A CLASS SYSTEM! When I worked in games media back in 2006-12 there most certainly was one. I was on this group called Games Journos Pros and I ended up leaving because of all the shit talking the various writers did on their particular website communities just bashing them and saying how terrible they were. I wanted no part of that nonsense. The writers and staffs at various websites HATED their communities and would trash them at every turn and Im sure this hasnt changed at all in the past 10 years or so. Im sure of that because we've seen outright resentment from writers in the content they produce calling out "gamers" as the worst people ever on many occasions on many different platforms. Fuck games media, theyre all just fucking bloggers with gigantic egos anyhow, nearly none of them are actual journalists or care one bit about tenets or ethics of journalism, they just wanna be personalities and spit their op-eds at everyone. The only people that have a sense of entitlement in the gaming industry are those in the media end of things.
Holy shit. I remember Games Journos Pros from Gamergate. Weren't there a bunch of sites that were supposed to be competing colluding on what narratives to push?
"Entitled gamers" is just a last ditch effort to try to justify a crap policy without making a company look bad, but unfortunately it can be thrown towards the companies in question. Example, "Paid online multiplayer." I've seen it thrown at those who oppose it, but the truth is the one that acts entitled when it comes to paid online multiplayer is the console makers. I've asked Tim Sweeney about it on Twitter and he's said that he believes that 2-3% of game sales should cover what console makers pay for. The developers are the ones paying for the online play of their own games. In other words, console makers feel entitled to money for something they're not really spending their money to fund.
What I like most about Bellular content is that Michael has a balanced perspective and personality to commentate on the topics he discusses. He can be emotional when emotions can be a focus; he can be informative when facts should be all you need; he is curious to understand (or admit that he can't understand) the side of opposition; he is introspective to the industry he performs in and is the change he wants to see. More content creators could learn a thing from this production. Well done on your team and I look forward to the next video.
Another great news / opinion piece, well made by Bellular News. Always thoroughly enjoy your content, and how you always take the honest and sensible line in all of these cases. Keep up the good work guys! :)
Thank you for addressing this topic in such a complete and formal manner. Almost no other industry releases a bad product disliked by the majority of their fanbase and the company's/medias response is, "oh their just being entitled babies, just buy the product and like it!" You've nailed it and talked about the grey areas as well. I'm a longtime hardcore gamer, and an upcoming game designer, so your channel speaks volumes to me. Love your channels, your stance is always well informed and fair. Keep up the great work!
Bellular what are your thoughts on the Henry Cavil interview where he defends fan's and associates himself as one too? I think its good to have more well known public figures express their opinions and tell their own game/fandom experiences. I believe an underrated aspect you could add to your discussion would be the impact of fandom, as soon as an I.P. becomes a fandom it has gathered a certain degree of investment of feelings, thoughts and time of several fans. Following that thought, you can see a red thread through the events that happened for bioware fiasco, star wars/disney fiasco, star wars/ea fiasco and the several activsion blizzard fiasco's. When fans get upset because a beloved fandom is in danger, risks doing hurtful or subpar they get vocal about it.
OMG Thank you! And thank you too, American McGee! I've been saying this for ages. Entitlement and toxicity are just words for "asshat", and they're not bound by any cultural or societal boundary. And even your best friend can also sometimes be the "dungeon douche".
Nice video. I also believe there's a disconnect between people born before 1970 and people after 1980 in regards to computer knowledge and gaming culture. I grew up with Pokemon Red and my parents grew up with Tetris and Pong. I was someone that held onto Bioware's promises as well. Sorely disappointed.. However Bioware posted this on their blog today. Maybe there's still hope? "we recognize- that there’s still work to be done. Over the coming months we will be focusing on a longer-term redesign of the experience, specifically working to reinvent the core gameplay loop with clear goals, motivating challenges and progression with meaningful rewards - while preserving the fun of flying and fighting in a vast science-fantasy setting. And to do that properly we’ll be doing something we’d like to have done more of the first time around - giving a focused team the time to test and iterate, focusing on gameplay first."
I agree, Battlefield BC2? (I think) felt like it was pandering to casual gamers for me. I like to play Death match and was bummed out when I couldnt find it. The only option was 4 v 4 v 4 v 4 squad team death match. Thats ok though. 4v12 works. Except it took 26 bullets to drop a guy..... which meant you had to reload unless you ran LMG. This caused the game to be more about what squad rocked tighter and operated better as a team, instead of how you played the fight that you were fighting.... The game devolved into 4 man medic squads. 4 guys w LMGS. You drop the first one, and start a reload. 2 more would push out and just SPRAY while the 3rd rezzed the dead guy. Also?!?! Not 1 single game mode with no vehicles..... And how effective was the LAV/MRAP on a tiny 4 v 12 map? Fucking very.... Which meant if you didnt play the vehicle your team would lose..... god damn... Great potential, great engine, but no game modes that I enjoyed...
2014 called, reminded me that Gamers are dead, as reported by real gaming journalist with much ethics on the largest, most trusted and best verified gaming publications. This is a very serious post.
The channels of you and your team have basically become my go to source of information in regard to games, just because of the differentiated opinions and Industry Insight ill get here.
7:40 -ish: It's definitely not just games, and I love that you started showing a Star Wars game at that moment, because the Star Wars lovers have definitely been hit with the "toxic" and "entitled" tags recently because of a few loud and vocal buttwipes.
Gamers are “customers” and as paying customers we are entitled BY LAW to receive a product which is working, value for money and free from manipulative business practices. The money we hand over gives us entitlement BY LAW.
I never really got this "Toxic, Entitled gamers" thing, in my experience gamers tend to be some of the nicest people around. I guess some game specific communities are kinda toxic but those games also tend to be more competitive and popular among teens so it's basically the causal factors as with "conventional" sports.
Great video Bellular well thought out and informative. That being said, I am just wondering if being negative/toxic/entitled on platforms like youtube etc is driven from $$$ standpoint for the loudest voices in the room. Something that I noticed over the last few years is the rise of Thumbnails on youtube being kinda clickbaity with very negative overtones. Take a look at the ones you scrolled in this video for example. They all seem to be OMG look at how x messed up. Same with that whiteboard guy and most other folks who cover video games and are good at it. Not saying that the material covered is done badly, quite the opposite in cases here. Matter of fact, I find your content to be quite helpful and what should be said from a level headed viewpoint. I just imagine media and creators skimming over all the thumbs at any given day and the great majority of them seem all negative and end timely. Is it how we get our information (getting the people in the door to watch our content) or the substance of the content to be the problem and what could be done different. Lets be honest its the drama that sells and get clicks but is all of it necessary? Food for thought i guess.. still great stuff on the meat of content guys keep up the good work.
Its pretty simple, the media gets the games and access to the developers for free, and they want to keep it that way so many of them would never say a bad word about any games. If you buy a car and it gets deliverd on your doorstep without a steering wheel you'd get man because its not working as it should and thats completly acceptable, but if a game is broken, buggy or missing features that where or are still advertised and you complain about it you'll get called toxic or entitled. I personaly stoped reading reviers from any publications because you never know how they benefit from that game, if I want to play a game I watch some Let's Play's if i like it a few hours in I'll buy it myself if not then not.
ANother problem creeps up: influencers and content creators are not unbiased sources either. So many are in the devs PR group pocket that it's genuingly difficult to even pretend that Let's plays or even Twitter account are genuine. Demos are a good way though. Too bad those are getting rarer and rarer. For live services, most dev want an early full buy, before the product ships. Hence: never pre-order, fight the FOMO instinct!
"Unwashed masses" is a bit on the nose when referring to gamers, but the very existence of the expression reminds one that the same criticism has been used for hundreds of years by the elites against the plebs.
Discourse on all levels and places on the internet is “toxic”. The internet game revolves around getting clicks and upvotes, and what gets upvotes and clicks is negative takes.
Part of it has to do with traditional games media trying to find their footing who didn't or wouldn't adapt to the changing environment. It also has to do with game devs who in the past have had a much bigger influence on how their games are portrayed.
Well, I dunno about you, but I think I'm going to go back to my older RPGs where everything was a complete product. I still have my N64 Gauntlet Legends, and I've been aching to level all the way back up and beat Skorne. Anyone wanna come over? I have three controllers!
I'll agree with your points, but I'd add a few more. While I don't have swathes of studies to prove my point, I'd wager that the "gamers are entitled" is part of a bigger "geeks are entitled" phenomenon. Star Wars fans were treated pretty much the same way with the games as they were with the movies, all the while cashing in on their passion with as much merch and winks and nudges to the original products as possible. I'll agree with your points about the divide stemming naturally from differences between the specialized press, the industry and the customer. But I would add that while gamers are emotionally invested, developers are also clearly honestly (Randy Pitchford aside) emotionally invested in their games, even shitty ones, because they represent countless hours upon hours of hard work and putting their work life first to allow for some insane crunch. So when devs pull through all that to put forward a game and it gets blasted by disgruntled gamers for things you may not even be responsible of (you're a level designer, how is it your fault that the lore guys made a major mistake in the sequel that "ruins everything"?) I can understand firing off angry tweets in the age of social media. It's not professional, nor good, nor productive, but I can understand. Of course I am fully aware that being game devs yourselves I am not teaching you anything new, but I just wanted to say that we know and we understand. We may not like it as consumers, but we understand. Also, I can understand not wanting to mention it but there is also a big political divide in an era where the idea of "everything is political so let's really hammer our politics in our product", with specialized media, big tech and Hollywood being very very leftist and gamers filling the entire political spectrum due to their sheer numbers. Take veganism, some people make that choice of diet, good for them. But you had movie after movie promoting veganism to the point where Harley Quinn wanting to eat a goddamn burger for almost the entirety of Birds of Prey can be seen as refreshing. And with the current western political divide, having that intrude upon video games can't help but reinforce the idea that gamers are unwashed masses to media and some big studios who see themselves on the other, better side of the fence. But I think that besides factors leading "naturally" to this unhelpful divide, there is also an incentive. For better or worse there is a gamer culture, and with the current state of affairs that culture is rather thin-skinned. That isn't conclusive to opening the market to new kinds of monetization and to new emerging markets (see the push against accepting the chinese censorship globally), but if you vilify critics with devs, media and controlled mainstream attention, you can beat the culture into submission or at least silence, which leaves no effective push-back against agressive monetization and the the like. That's not to say that I believe this is all a conspiracy by the big video game companies, to divide and pacify gamers, but I am pretty sure this serves their interest so when they saw the divide starting to form they put no effort to stopping it and patted the back of game journalists who defended them against these uneducated entitled gamers, which probably made these game journalists purr and feel like they had just received the Pullitzer award. Just my two cents.
Another thing to consider is that the industry uses "Entitled Gamers" as a deflection for their shady business practices. When gamers start "throwing a tantrum" because a game doesn;t have ADVERTISED features or content ... that's not Gamers feeling entitled, that's gamers having been sold a product or service under false pretense. "Gameplay footage" that wasn't really gaemplay footage ranging from pre-rendered scenes passed off as gameplay for example or faked live game play that is actually scripted ... Watchdogs, Warcraft 3 - Remastered, Anthem ... No man's sky is a perfect example of this of course but Fallout 76 now offering game altering paid microtransactions is another. Yes, we are entitled ... we're entitled to receive the product we were sold and not a lie.
I really like this video's messaging. One thing I cannot stand about internet culture as a whole is the dumbing down of discourse. Breaking things up into black-and-white issues, establishing what are essentially "tribes" of people who subscribe to a very specific way of thinking and the utter refusal to consider the thinking of anyone not in that tribe, sometimes going so far as to label folks not in the tribe as objectively wrong and even evil. I've often said that I would rather have a conversation with someone I do not agree with that brings up a lot of valid points than a yes-man who agrees with everything I say. The former can strengthen or even broaden my own perspective whereas a yes-man just makes you feel good and safe in your beliefs. Honestly, if I had a nickel every time I heard someone vilify someone for disagreeing with them without even trying to engage with them, I'd probably donate it all to some kind of pro-education fund that encourages rational discourse, because I'm kind of sick and tired of this being the current normal.
It doesn't help that some people get exponentially more upset that a game set in medieval Europe doesn't have black people in it, or that a certain game only has two pronouns to pick from, than they are at companies completely milking out their beloved franchises on mobile(Hi Nintendo and Sqaure-Enix fans!). Brainwashed to the absolute core. And it's so effin easy to dismiss criticism by trying to paint the people behind it as a bunch of hating, xenophobic sexists. Hollywood does the exact same thing when they get called out trying to cynically resurrect old franchises by putting in a woke spin on them. It's a trick to put the attention elsewhere. So of course the gaming industry want to paint all the people exposing their shitty business practices as "toxic". It's not working nearly as well in this industry, tho. Thank god... (The sad ending to all this, tho, is that gaming companies will probably just start moving an increasing number of resources to mobile, where they basically got free reign and a playerbase a lot less educated and a lot more receptive to bullshit monetisation than on PC/consoles. Thanks, Nintendo and Square-Enix for being such trailblazers.)
as someone who worked in retail for 10 years american mcgee is right,while there are toxic/entitled gamers (about 25% of of the gamers i've met in over 30 years of gamer are like that,the rest are amazingly friendly and helpful people who are very passionate about gaming) even retail and life in general have people like that and it's the reason i left retail,i wasn't getting paid enough to put up with half the crap i went through. 2nd blaming gaming for violence didn't work so now they are trying to make gamers as a whole look bad,also people are getting sick and tired of half assed shouldn't of left beta games being released as full games being sold at the standard $60+ price tag and are now finally pushing back and the dev's like that don't like it,they need to tread carefully as gamers will gladly move on to other games out there if they feel the dev's don't deserve their money where as the dev need people to buy their games.
I used to buy Street Fighter but now I feel they're just out to attack my wallet. Having to pay extra for costumes and even characters, come on. These things used to be unlockables in game. Wasn't there in game advertisement in the last version that you could pay to have removed? I wish more people would steer clear of companies that behave this way but if others choose to buy in and support such practices there's nothing I can do about it except not play those games.
I love it when toxic, entitled companies and "journalists" call us toxic and entitled for having standards and wanting what we spend our money on to be worth the money.
Honestly, I gotta agree with sentiment. @BellularNews You're dead on about the divide between players and devs. And the disconnect in games media/critics. Look, I don't know the answer. Maybe there isn't one. All I know is this, as developers, we can try to connect with our auidence more often. Online. In person. At least, try to take steps and see things from your players' perspective.
If I may. The video game industry was, if not the first, but the industry which could get the /most/ immediate feedback. If you were playing a game on the computer in the late 90's early 00's then you were only an alt-tab and a web address away from being able to leave direct feedback on a forum, and it was used liberally. The good devs listened to the playerbase and altered their games to be more user-friendly, fixed bugs, and took on player ideas. The bad devs pretty much went under (or were under EA). Sometime around 2010 something happened that made the devs realize that this could be used to their advantage. They began to release unfinished games and let the players be the beta testers, fixing the bugs that showed up instead of releasing a finished product. But as players begin to catch on and push back, suddenly they were "Entitled" and "Toxic", when they were only acting on the same behavior that had been trained into them for two decades. In short, the only ones that have changed are the devs and the way they do business.
I agree that there needs to be more communication between gamers and devs, but usually there aren't many clear channels where we gamers can express our disapproval. Sure, we can post complains and memes on stackexchange, imgur, or reddit, but we're not even sure the devs read/take them seriously, which leads to gamers' general apathy, review bombings, and emotional youtube vids. Ofc, there are some devs who interacts much with their customers through devstreams, reddit AMAs, or steamcommunity, but generally, the most we can expect from most devs nowadays is generic corporate answers TLDR: imo there needs to be more clear channels of dev-gamer communication, and devs nowadays should take extra effort to show that they actually listen to their fans
Damn that Alice footage..would love to see that franchise make a comeback...or at least just a re-release with updated graphics ( don't touch the gameplay, that's fine as is )
Its always refreshing to hear people voice out against stereotypes, though focusing negatively on gamers isn’t a new thing... Was niche in the 70s to early 90s, gained stigma from 80s arcades and again from violence and resurgence of arcades mid-90s, and now its just being brought back again as an old standard to get views... or a stereotype resurfacing after media stayed in a bubble. Completely agree gamer is just like any other consumer, and am glad he quoted that point. Kinda knocks those spouting off on their soap boxes down at the knees. There is a side point to be made though. The un-empowered dislike being lied to. Moreso on points of cultural shelter and and entertainment. People identify to it, and company practices have shifted strategies over the last few decades with the advent of always online games/ services. Additionally people are more likely to respond to something targeting that identity, though only partially due to a lack of time in their day to day schedules, or restrained lifestyles if due to age or other factors. Finally games are recreation but carry the stigma of being toys... a word often joined with youth and immaturity. Being an adult is serious business due to responsibilities, and upkeep of cost and time, so seeking a toy is the opposite of that mindset. Plus the gate to entry is available as a kid, no matter how much nerd past times have become the norm in media over the last 2 decades. Point being any dissent can be taken as the mewling of babes and the outcries of the immature. AND THEN FURTHER the last decade has shown a large enough outcry of toxicity has caused shady business practices of companies to change tact and give at least a token gesture to fix the short-changed actions that riled up the community in the first place. Toxicity is actually encouraged in that regard, whereas other actions rarely seem to work. And in an edge of feeling openly ignored and watching those with power to change things to willfully continue ignoring in real time (due to always active online exposure) people react in any empowering way when mistreated. Its just games are more online than a lot of activities due to their electronic, wired in nature SO the customer toxicity reaches an earlier boiling point from exposure. All these factors breed toxicity... low age entry, the association with it being recreation, a lack of time, the early onset of identifying as a gamer, the helpless undercurrent in the face of exposed shady practices, and the ease of mass media to find a scape goat to take focus away from other things.
Yeah right, customers have the right to be pissed when companies try to scam them. Criticism is not toxic, unless your business practices are shady as hell.
The words toxic and entitled are an understatement. So many gamers are unstable and mentally ill it's crazy. Not all but there's a big majority that really are. Those are the ones that give gamers a bad name. You find them in every multiplayer game and they ruin everything for everyone else.
You make some good points, the state of the industry is a big contributor. The amount of "pissed off gamers" has seen to increase over the last couple years, because customer satisfaction is at an all time low for core gaming, non-mobile. The more reasons we have for angry gamers to exist, the more angry gamers we have, the bigger that smaller pool of entitled and toxic is going to be.
The big issue these days is, that Companies like IGN, Gamespot, PCgamer and so on have a huge part of there foot in the Industry and they are to scared to be honest 100% of the time. On top of that we saw a huge shift in marketing the last couple years, more and more YT's and Twitch streamers are super important for companies to promote there games. And not many of the have the courage to be honest to there viewers about the game they promote. Game changer for me is a perfect example. I just hope that more Journalist come into the industry that ask the hard hitting questions and are not scared.
The industry is treating us like crap. I've been a lifelong gamer and it feels like we are getting exploited from every possible angle. That being said, even gamers themselves forget that not everyone is straight, cisgender, or white. Maybe if gamers could calm down over more skin color options, gay romances, or transgender characters, feminists wouldn't have much to work with. I am an intersectional feminist myself. I am wary of these videos because it seems to become less about consumer protections and industry ethics and becomes yet another opportunity for sexist, racist, transphobic, and/or homophobic gamers to complain that they are being called out. Yes, I know #notallgamers, but speaking less as a feminist and more as a gamer, I gotta tell you that there are systemic issues in the culture. Absolutely we should call AAA devs on their bullshit. I mean, Blizzard is a burned out dumpster bin of what it used to be. However, please don't use this as an opportunity to be upset that you got banned on Origin for calling someone a "h*mo," or something similarly bigoted. Let's try to be better and make this industry better at the same time. We can handle both. I know I can. I clocked in over an hour flying the damned Dodo in GTA 3. We all have similar achievements. Gamers can do anything. Let's try and do something good.
This video does cover a lot of the necessary bases. Just to add a bit on to that. Gaming media outlets as covered in a previous report are heading to some level of irrelevance with the vertical integration of consumer/developer relations (e.g. "This Week at Bungie" or BGE2 "Space Monkey" Program). It does place them in a compromised position where they're prioritising a "whatever works" approach to drive consumer interest. I've seen far too many outrage "articles" from Polygon/Kotaku/RPS/IGN that read more like blogger opinion pieces or that two page personal essay at the beginning of every food website's recipe. Even the reviews are questionable. The scores on Warcraft 3 reforged were constantly judged by the factors that were identical to the original release (story/characters/core gameplay etc) rather than the marketed product vs actual product/new content. Worst case scenario you have a VG24/7 writer admitting that in a review in progress they couldn't separate their nostalgia from the current experience and giving up trying to do so.
People all too often mistake passion for toxicity. Henry Cavill brought this up recently when doing press for the Witcher show I think.
Peepeetime I wanted to kiss the dude when he said that (no homo).
He did, and it was a polite way to disarm the interviewer who went in that line of questioning.
I think it's one of those things were a few ruined it for the rest of the class.
YESSSSSS
It's not what you do but how you do it
I'm sick of the "entitlement" argument. I'm a chef, I feed people every day. If I serve someone a shitty ham sandwich and charged them $15, they have every right to send it back and that's on me.
Why is it, that as a gamer (my entire damn life) if I don't like a game I'm an entitled idiot?
This pisses me off.
Agreed, this shit will never fly in the culinary industry.
Why can't we complain if the video game product is shit? We have the RIGHT to complain if a product is broken, we the costumers deserve what we pay for.
A-f'ing-men!
How are you not verified?
@@uchnsn I dunno, youtube doesn't like me much =p
@@CHEFPKR oh well i like your content keep it up!
It's called vilifying your critics.
Produce crap, vilify those who call you out on it, produce more crap.
Yup the industry and the media attacked the consumers first. The consumers jut reacted to being attacked and they then slapped the TOXIC label on all critics.
@Steve The kotaku sock puppet speaks. Hi Patrick klepick.
@Steve triggered
@Steve Gotta say you seem pretty angry and triggered yourself with all the swearing and all caps and whatnot :P
@Steve attack? I have yet to see one attack against developers and publishers, just bitching. While developers and publishers have attacked opponents, banning the top one. If the Gamers were attacking people, I've yet to see the molotov fly
Companies are not entitled to our money. The customer decides whether or not something is worth purchasing.
I remember when the ME3 ending debacle was still going on, Michael Pachter had a video (back when he was still under gamefailers(.)com) where he lectured the audience for almost 10 minutes about how horrible and entitled gamers were for criticizing ME3's ending, and that they were the reason the industry loses talented people. He never addressed any of the complaints or criticisms about the ending, just a smug lecturing from an empty suit who likely doesn't even play games.
Honestly, I find it even more depressing how many people seemed to just accept the ending after the Extended Cut was released. I can go into detail of anyone wants to, but to keep it short from my perspective the extended cut addresses barely any of the major criticisms and actively adds new problems. And yet so many more people just seemed to accept that.
The only praise i will give Bioware for the extended cut is that they tried, but their failure warrants every bit of criticism as the original version.
Tbh while the ending was meh. Gamers took on to completely fuck up the public's perception of Mass Effect. Instead of praising the game for what it was and criticizing the boring end everyone just completely destroyed the whole perception of an otherwise good game.
Vinzenz Rößle I haven’t played ME3, but I clearly remember that everyone who criticised the game only criticised the conclusion of the story. Most people felt let dow that such an awesomely complex story ended in such a bland and uninteresting way.
While there were a few people that shat on the entire franchise just because of the ending, they were a small minority.
@@vinzcavallion1084 The ending is arguably the most important part of a game like ME, especially when it is a trilogy that is story driven. I never played ME3 so I cant comment on whether or not it was good. However, when I look at Game of thrones it had a good start and bad ending. Sounds like ME. Overall, GoT is an average show when taking into account both the good and the bad. You could argue that I'm being too harsh, faulting the show for its ending. However, the reason I continued to finish that series is purely to find out what happens at the end. Hence, why the emphasis on the ending and why overall it was a mediocre series. If the middle seasons like 4-6 were bad but they nailed the ending then the series would of been a good one. My guess is that critics of ME had a similar idea.
@@vinzcavallion1084 I never played ME3 tbh, but I did play the first 2 and as it turns out the ending is pretty damn important to a story driven series who's major selling point is your actions influencing the story and carrying over between games. I'm not surprised people sh*t all over it after investing 5 years and playing through 3 long games, only to be met with utter disappointment.
I view it as being akin to Lost: the mystery, character and intrigue of that show were fantastic in the first few seasons, but the ending was so awful and rage inducing that I warn people to not bother investing their time into watching it in the first place.
"gamers are people"
We live in a world where this is a news worthy announcement
And here i though i was an ALIEN lol
The whole "toxic" fandom thing is not just in the video games games industry, it's rampant across the entertainment industry. It's not the majority or fans that are entitled. It's the corporations that are putting out crap content in games, movies, and TV ans expecting the public to eat it up no matter how bad it is with out complaint. If we the customers don't eat it up the corporate narrative in present day is to blame the customers.
What other industry besides the entertainment industry can a bad product be made and the customers are blamed for not liking it.
Yeah, if a movie bombs, the filmmakers get blamed, not the moviegoers who sniffed out the rot.
Answer: just about nearly every single market in existence. Past, present and future.
People are fanboyish to everything they like. From games to baby milk formulae.
@@francoiscoupal7057 While it's true fanbois will fanboi and defend companies, AMD fanbois are a great example, it seems like the only industry that the corporations are consistently attacking customers is the entertainment industry.
It seems that all the big companies who've earned their clout over the decades are starting to cash in.. and they're getting nothing but peanuts.
The actual "toxic"/"entitled" gamers are those that defend MTX's and scummy practices, quite honestly. Those that proudly call gaming a service too.
Can we throw the e-sports lot in there? You know that wave hasn't done shit for how games've been made that were originally intended for casual audiences. (Looking at you beloved fighting game series.)
> The actual "toxic"/"entitled" gamers are those that defend MTX's
The game "Path of Exile" runs on MTX and there's quite literally NOTHING wrong with it. By saying what you said you're basically just the same wrong as what Bellular talked about in this video. You're generalizing and it's stupid to do. Period.
@veracsthane nah that's PR vomit. Its massive price gouging by selling assets a la carte. They've got you fooled. The only acceptable pricing models are flat priced complete games on day one and large expansions (CDPR model and how gaming was prior to this gen). Anything else is price gouging and a scam.
@veracsthane IMHO MTX are like Communism: They sound fine in theory, but in practice they're never implemented in a way that is good. They are an extrinsic factor applied to what should be an intrinsic experience: Playing the game. Even the most benign implementation of them is something that is done at the expense of the core game experience. And for every Path of Exile, there are hundreds of Battlefront2s and Shadows of Mordor.
@@manuakasam Thing is, PoE is one of the very very few that does it in a benign manner, and that is likely in part because they were one of the first F2P titles. The concept of inconveniencing people with limited bag space etc. which you pay a one-time fee and then the game plays like any premium title. Instead what most F2P and otherwise titles go for now is a permanently impaired state where giving them money is only a temporary relief and you pepper the gameplay loop in dopamine and RNG systems so they're never quite completely happy with where they are.
Worked in the restaurant industry for 8 years. To be honest, some of our customers were the most entitled, toxic people I've ever met. Especially when they're HANGRY
Chef here, at least we fix something right away instead of saying we will fix your product next update.
@@megadethrocks1239 exactly. And even if you can't, that's when you can be like "next meal on us" or similar situations depending on what's going on. I would say the exceptions are the ones that habitually come in and gripe about the food, eat it all, and then be like "this was horrible, we're not paying!"
@@Syndicate.Harbor yeah happens all the time, and i think that is how ea and all of those companies think of the whole gamer crowd who says anything. You don't tell patrons to eat what i half cooked
@@Syndicate.Harbor
Holyshit, the "We eat it all and it is horrible. We not paying". Happen so often, especially delivery business at not so good area.
Or just not have money/not enough money when we show up. Hoping we will give them the food.
Worked at a Costco in my early work life for almost 4 years, couldn't believe the people, or that I lasted that long while being a full time student most of the time. Middle aged women freaking out over the store not having paper towels with prints on them was a common occurrence. Bitching about waiting in line on the weekend for free food samples of products they weren't planning on buying anyway. Despite a trashcan at the end of almost every isle, the amount of food sample wrappings and garbage laying on the products and the floor was horrifying. The list is endless really. Those people were actually pigs.
I have never behaved that way in my life. But in hindsight, I am 100% glad I had that experience and I think it should be mandatory for people to have worked customer service before utilizing it. I suspect many of these types of people haven't.
Being unhappy with a product is a sin called "being toxic" these days
Especially when said product was often either A) Misrepresented by marketing materials or B) A clear and present downgrade from previous installments solely for the sake of extracting extra money out of people dedicated to that IP.
No... Threatening the lives of developers over delays, bugs, etc. is toxic. The fact that so many Gamers(TM) also just happen to be fucking trolls anyways is why the whole community gets slapped with the toxic label. Doesn't matter the game, if there is a mp mode, there will be toxic players.
No it's cause people being really toxic and exaggerate the whole situation and cross the line even if they are unhappy..
''Gamers'' are known for taking things to serious...
@@C-Jay_Underground All humans are, mate
The reason the media keeps writing about evil "gamers" is because those are the only articles that anyone clicks on.
So what you're saying bell is part of the problem :/
Not remotely true lol, maybe seems that way if all you do is game
Truth
people clicking on crappy articles = people still using "the media" as an argument
@Steve If in 25 years of interactions with a specific group/class of people you have had mostly bad experiences, then maybe it's you that's the problem and not them.
Compared to all the good experiences and friendships I've had with people all over the world playing games like WoW and PSO, I can basically count the number of bad experiences on one hand.
Every year so many game communities come together to do great things, whether it be raising money for a hospital, or raising awareness for some disease or natural disaster. I'd honestly be willing to bet "Gamers" have have done more good for the world than any other hobby group has. If people are upset about something that is so near and dear to them, that it is for all intents and purposes their life, they have the right to be upset. And while there are gamers who take their rightfully justified displeasure and go a bit(or sometimes a lot) further than they should with it, so too are there non-gamers who do the same.
At there end of the day, people are people irregardless of whatever tags they associate themselves by, and all people have the capacity to be toxic and wonderful alike.
Gamer - This game sucks, can I have a refund?
Entitled "AAA" Company - You didn't like our game? WTF? Are you a racist or something? You probably hate women. You're toxic.
Gamer - Ummmmmmmm. What? Never mind I'll just go play something else instead of dealing with entitled weirdos who deflect and call other people entitled and toxic.
Stop giving these weirdos your money. They don't care about you, they care about milking you. Plus their egos are so small now that they won't be willing to fix their games. They even go back now and ruin their old games.
There is some level of humility required to admit something you created might suck and requires work. Most of these gaming companies have been filled with people who are incapable of that. Plus if they make something which sucks, then it requires money and time to fix it. Why do that when you can just not do that if you think you can? They are the entitled and toxic group. F them. They literally think their poop doesn't stink.
unfortunately most ppl are just too dumb to get that and keep feeding the ppl that do all that bunch of morons that dont know whats in their best interest
And then they wonder why no one is buying their next games. (cough)Blizzard(cough)
That is such a mouthful.
This is all super complicated shit. Games are made by a developer. But funded by the publisher. This shouldnt be a problem but the publisher is pulling all the strings by measuring everything vs the financial cost and its return. They have been pushing for years at full speed cutting anything they can to increase profit and its slowly been adding up.
Now that all the easy shit to abuse is done, they are moving on to things that they shouldnt be fucking with. But the problem is the Publisher and the people that run it, are business people, who only care about dollars. In business its about bringing return for your investors. Universal Constant Gains cause these stupid fucks to do dumb shit. ALL THESE PEOPLE CARE ABOUT IS MAKING MORE MONEY THEN LAST QUARTER.
And there is nothing wrong with a company trying to become as efficient as possible. But when it start to come at the cost of the product? or the service to the fans? They need to step back and realize that money is coming from the future.
Part of me worries that these cunts know this, and their plan is to merge/go bankrupt and start another company that doesnt have that evil history. To milk this industry as hard as they can for as much as they can and just leave/close when things stop functioning.
I vote with my wallet and fucking hate Bobby Kotick (I dont wish him any harm... he is just doing his job. But he is a piece of shit for caring so much about money that he doesnt care about destroying an industry)
@@bradcloud7670 That's the problem, people don't know the difference between a publisher and a developer.
Remember the outcry over New Coke?
Pepperidge Farm remembers.
Gamers have every reason to be angry, given events over the last several years. False advertising releasing unfinished garbage at full price day one DLC etc etc. These terms are just another pathetic attempt by the so called triple A developers to continue to justify the non stop stream of garbage we have seen over the last several years.
Except "gamers" paid for that dlc, those preorders, and the continual downward spiral of product quality.
@Steve So gamers can't be mad because other gamers buy the dlc?
Fuck bro, I guess If someone cheats in my Counter Strike game, I can't really be mad at him because
a human made the cheat, and I am a human too.
@Capt’n Crims The guy complaining about this, Isn't the same fucking guy pre ordering the newest Cod and fifa day one. How do you have problems comprehending this?
Like, you are literally grouping all gamers into one category. Why? Obviously the people that complain about these companies releasing unfinished, day one dlc, and other crap, aren't the same ones buying the newest NHL every year.
I personally am proud of my toxicity towards anti-consumer activity. As should we all.
James Manley toxicity is a blunt instrument easy to be misconstrued as well as lumped together with others you may disagree with but share a similar focus.
You can champion being seen as “toxic” individually, but its naive to think thats the only definition applied when labelled that way.
Additionally defending that point without bothering to define unsaid differences is near intentional misrepresentation of the issue you’re voicing an opinion or taking a stand about.
But hey... it’d look good on a t-shirt....
Amen to that
Ditch the "consumer" mentality. It's a trick to fool people into becoming sheeps that keep on buying.
A consumer consumes. A customer has some fucking standards.
Your toxicity to cancerous entities can be called a cure or treatment. Perspective.
@@anansilas6114 Ha! Good analogy!
It's actually an attack on "nerds" and "geeks." Look how people reacted to when people didn't like Last Jedi and even Rise of Skywalker.
I think I actually agree with you the most. This subject is way broader, yet deeper than what some are realizing and solutions won't be as simple. "Nerds" have always seemed to be easy targets: Everything from video games nerds to DnD nerds, and the moment you express interest in one or the other, you immediately get lumped in that group. On the flip side, even though there have been many products this past decade that got WAY over-hyped, I think there are also titles out there that people didn't see the face value of. Regardless, there's WAY more going on than even what this video and the comments are talking about. The question though is, how to fix this?
Well... I'm a fan and I loved Rise of Skywalker so the haters can do me a favour. Call me toxic I don't care but I can hate those people if I want :D
"gamers are the most oppressed minority"
This unironic banter is why people want to gas neets.
@@Syndicate.Harbor DnD in the 80s, Mortal Kombat in the early 90s, Games causing violence. Now it's misusing toxicity.
@@kirschakos Are you even old enough to watch those movies ?
4:53 - This section is poignant to the discussion of "the media bubble" in the games industry.
I remember while I was doing my BTEC to help me get onto a Games Computing Degree Course (which I've now completed & doing another course at another uni) at uni watching GamerGate happen and seeing this exact thing happen but on a massive scale - where the gutter consists of large harassment campaigns and repeated bomb & death threats to key figures & events on both sides that still occur to this day. It doesn't help when it's being done for cultural (& arguably political) reasons too.
8:00 - I would say considering the actions taken by fans when their franchise is messed with by the publishers in a disrespective manner (like Diablo Immortal) this leans towards being true, especially when comparing fans of a book & film series (eg: harry potter) or a TV series (eg: Dr Who) and comparing to fans of Games.
Sure there's always a portion of super fans who will do everything possible, however, I'd argue that there's a larger percentage of that sort of dedication within fandoms for video games.
Heck, look at the Smash Bros Community: Their reactions to character reveals ( & even mii outfits like Sans & Cuphead), their attitude to when big events happen in their community (eg: Etika's death), their dedication to being amazingly good at the game, & so on. I'd argue that this comes from the fresh experiences Games provide when playing them. Whether it's with friends, online, streaming, in videos, etc. Games can provide unique experiences each time they're launched.
The content you & your team have produced has been the most balanced and fair I've seen for a long while and I'm glad it exists as it means I don't have to go to depressing media sites that'll continue to perpetuate the whole "Evil Gamers" narrative for their own desires, clout & twitter clicks. Honestly, it feels like they make the stuff just to get people angry half the time and it's really depressing.
Overall this video hits on the points that need to be made so well and in an informative and friendly fashion & I really enjoyed it. Thank you for making it. :)
Half the time? All the time. As was said earlier in the comments: There's no sure-fire way to more clicks better than incendiary titles driving hate-clicks.
I was complaining to a friend about how the grocery store was charging 2x the cost of name-brand milk compared to the store brand milk... she called me a "Toxic Dairy Consumer" :'(
Yet her saying that is toxic and being pro consumer is toxic now and bad.
I'm just gonna take a shot in the dark and guess that your friend is a modern feminist?
Thats fucked up.... The store should offer both products..... at a reasonable cost. To make it a non choice by purposely cranking the price of the brand milk, I agree 100% with you, that they are abusing the customers for their own gain. A stupid short sighted gain in the short run. I would stop buying milk there personally :)
You have a right to think that is fucked up
7:36 - "Why does gaming get this treatment?" First, it isn't just gaming. Table top games have gotten it, pen and paper RPGs fandoms have gotten it, sports fandoms have gotten it, comic fandom has gotten it, metal fandom has gotten it, just to name several that I am aware of.
Fandoms like those surrounding, say.... Twilight... don't get it. Do people look askance at the fans of Twilight? Yes. Do they call those fans toxic because of their high levels of exuberance? No.
Wonder if there is a pattern there? Hopefully, someone could review those, and other fandoms which get the label of toxic, to see what it could be. I don't have the time right now. Though, if pressed I could. Even with my busy schedule.
Maybe someone with more time could take up the task? Anyone at all could do it. Lessons could be learned if we could noodle out the cause. Even if those who need to learn the lessons are the most prone to ignore it. Somehow, I imagine those in the media bubbles would just dismiss whatever pattern someone could find.
What a time to be alive! When demanding quality when you spend your hard-earned money is regarded as "entitled" "toxic" "elitists" etc.
Well, here's the thing about entitlement: we are customers who expect a product to be well-crafted. We're paying $60+ per title and we want our money's worth. We don't want to be saddled with games-as-a-service. We don't want to have DLC or microtransactions shoved down our throat. We want a full, well-crafted game. We understand that these companies have to make money but they seem to forget that they have to provide a product worth purchasing. We don't HAVE to buy everything that they crap on a platter - they're entitled in thinking that we OWE them our hard-earned money and should shut up after buying their product.
Any developer or publisher who actively paints their consumer base as toxic and entitle needs to be fully boycotted because they clearly don't take their craft seriously and see it as a hobby for man-children with a disposable budget. Social media influencers who parrot this toxic gamer narrative are corporate shills who know that their channel can't survive without the sponsorship of the publishers and developers, so they can kick rocks too. If they threaten to stop developing for the PC or preferred target platform, so be it. If they're churning out garbage, then good riddance and good luck with fooling another market into buying your low-effort nonsense.
I blame how the rise in the corporate hierarchy works on this.
Marketing people go up. Not product people.
They start making decisions over the product, Ruin said product, complain about their buyers being at fault.
Loot at apple after jobs died....
Same thing in gaming.
Publishers go up products go down.
Gamers are now "Consumers" and "entitled".
I dont think its Marketing that is the issue. Marketing advertises the product with the budgets they are allowed. Ultimately it is the CEOs that need more and more money to show their investors. Universal Constant Gains has to fizzle out eventually. And when you take all the money out of the easy shit, they start looking towards the core product and thinking about ways they could manipulate/change it to make more money. And they are starting to look at some goofy shit.
The idea that they think they can control NVidea from allowing us to stream OUR games, we OWN, is disgusting. These greedy corporate losers only see a potential revenue stream, instead of realizing that it would be double charging. You want to open a streaming service that charges per month? and allows you access to hundreds of games? That would work. But the idea that you want me to repurchase on that streaming service? What a fucking joke.
Gaming industry was the first one to take their fan base as granted, not the other way around. I myself study economics at the university in Finland, and all the usual marketing/customer service protocols are mostly flushed down the toilet. In no other industry (So far as i know) has the common sense like "keep your customer happy -and they will come back" been so twisted as i've seen triple AAA -studios treat their customers and still expect them to buy their products. It's the weirdest thing with the entertaiment, that people will still buy the games if the next one is good even if they got obviously scammed by the marketing or by the product itself.
Are you going to talk about Magic the Gathering"mmo" that's a massive let down by the gameplay and they took down anything refering it as an mmo after getting flamed online for it.
The way wizards of the coast has operated this last decade. It shouldn't come as a shock they are a terrible company with terrible people. I'm surprised that they could get people to code a functional game.
@@Sevier7777 Yeah, I wasn't holding out much hope after they ran never winter in and out of the ground with bad patch after patch.
I disagree "toxic gamer" isn't a thing. Is it overblown? Yes. Do other subsectors have toxicity? Yes. The real problem is people conflate publishers and developers trying to cover their asses by co-opting issues for their convenience and defense against criticism. VS gamers acting like shit heads and collectively harassing people.
You yourself pointed out the issue of when an audience goes from simple "fan" to an "identity". Gamer has been a longstanding identity, long before it became an official label, it was a refuge for a lot of kids who were stuck on the fringe. But as a result "Gamers" do over react and by your own admonition tend to react passionately and often times that reaction can be very immature or straight up malicious.
And yes, the publishers are guilty of being assholes too and gamers are entitled to being treated well. If a publisher actively stokes their fanbases' passions and makes them love their games. It's their fault for thinking that they can pull a fast one on fans by exploiting fan loyalty to make a quick buck. It's the double edged sword of building a dedicated fanbase. You build expectations.
Some devs seem to pull out the ‘entitled’ and ‘toxic’ cards very quickly, maybe they feel that the people they’re talking down to and generally insulting were never going to buy their game anyway but what about future projects?
Short term thinking rules it seems.
Gamers: Ours is a cycle of hatred. Alliances forged and broken.
Bellular: Use little g, please.
I remember back when gaming media reviewed, wrote on and concerned themselves with games. Seems to me the problem is less with ''Gamers'' and more with some within gaming media forgetting what it is that they are, what they're meant to do.
Certain Devs, and Publishers, like to toss the labels of, "toxic, entitled, Gamers", because then they do not have to own up to putting out crap. "We did the best we could, it is just those, "entitled Gamers", that are saying the game is bad. They are the ones that have these unwarranted expectations, not our misleading marketing materials."
It's so refreshing on this day and age to have a channel like yours folks. Keep it up and thank you! Plus, I can't wait to see what you have been developing.
Haha wow, I remember that boycott MW2 steam group at 1:55, and what a joke it turned out to be! 90%+ of the people in there were playing MW2 on launch day, at the time I felt like a fool for actually sticking to my guns and not buying it! That ended up being one of the most significant events that showed me how ineffective the modern outrage culture is: Whether its anger over things like Blitzchung or shady microtransactions like lootboxes, the vast majority of people who get angry and make threats over these things never actually do anything about it. Unfortunately the corporate companies have figured this out, which is why they only give insincere apologies and never change.
Yup dumb sheep easy profit selling slop
Thats ok! Even if people caved and purchased, they learned something. And the more and more this goes on, the more people who will change sides. I LOVE all Call of Duty games. I quit at Black Ops 2 because of certain things and havent went back. In fact the guy I play games with every day for the last 5 years, just bought the new one and has been gone for 30 days? Fuck Activision.
The only entitled people here are the developers and the gaming companies.
Making crap and expecting praises? Wow these people are unbelievable.
So many counter examples exist...
Congrats! You are part of the information bubble Bell just mentionned in his video. Just on the other side of the fence.
@@francoiscoupal7057 congrats too cause you are entitled to have your own bubble around your head.
The average gamer just wants Devs to give them quality good games that are not just cash grabs. Don't scam your players, don't be Greedy with your monetization and don't release games unfinished.
This was a good watch and very relevant to today's gaming industry.
In my experience people that feel the need to claim moral superiority over others tend to have some serious flaws in their own personalities they refuse to acknowledge. In many cases all these people are doing is feeding their Communal Narcissism. Sites that expound these types of pieces tend to have the same traits; namely publishing long, shallow, vapid pieces full of buzz words that don't really tell you much, but leave you feeling like you've wasted your time. The comment sections are then full of applaud and adulation by the same people or even their own staff with one person trying to be more profound than the other. Furthermore, these sites are short-sighted in their business goals because not only do they only appeal to the minority, the message they send tends to get lost in the noise after time. This can be evidenced by the extremely aggressive ad campaigns some of these sites have implemented. Obviously, revenue is not where it needs to be. The interesting thing is instead of actually fixing the content (which is the actual problem), they've decided to hurt their already low-number of readers by creating an unwelcoming experience.
To be fair, not all sites are like this though and there are some that give good coverage to games. I feel sorry for these sites, because although they tend to actually represent 99% of the game community, they are not the ones that tend to be discussed often.
The way you guys actually do exactly that, try an educate people on the things that are going on in these big gaming news stories is exactly why I rang that bell and really watch every video you guys put out now. Your format and dedication are very much appreciated! Thank you for the great work and content!
I really enjoyed this particular video. I watch your news bits everyday, but this one really pointed out the main issues I have with mainstream media.
Great job on this particular vid!
I agree. I really think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the games industry is pretty un-regulated compared to other industries, and the companies take advantage of that. The "entitlement" tag is thrown around in a lot of cases where anti-consumer practices appear.
HOLY SHIT YEAH THERES A CLASS SYSTEM! When I worked in games media back in 2006-12 there most certainly was one. I was on this group called Games Journos Pros and I ended up leaving because of all the shit talking the various writers did on their particular website communities just bashing them and saying how terrible they were. I wanted no part of that nonsense. The writers and staffs at various websites HATED their communities and would trash them at every turn and Im sure this hasnt changed at all in the past 10 years or so. Im sure of that because we've seen outright resentment from writers in the content they produce calling out "gamers" as the worst people ever on many occasions on many different platforms. Fuck games media, theyre all just fucking bloggers with gigantic egos anyhow, nearly none of them are actual journalists or care one bit about tenets or ethics of journalism, they just wanna be personalities and spit their op-eds at everyone.
The only people that have a sense of entitlement in the gaming industry are those in the media end of things.
Holy shit. I remember Games Journos Pros from Gamergate. Weren't there a bunch of sites that were supposed to be competing colluding on what narratives to push?
@@Dresdenstl Yeah there was a lot of shady shit going on there, but I had left the group around 2010 ish so that stuff came well after my time there.
How does wanting dedicated servers have anything to do with being toxic or entitled.
It isn't but look at that picture again, in the group about boycotting mw2, most if not all of them were playing mw2.
@treos2 Good rant, but a complete non sequitur from the original subject here.
I'm happy developers like you still exist. Looking forward to support your games!
"Entitled gamers" is just a last ditch effort to try to justify a crap policy without making a company look bad, but unfortunately it can be thrown towards the companies in question. Example, "Paid online multiplayer." I've seen it thrown at those who oppose it, but the truth is the one that acts entitled when it comes to paid online multiplayer is the console makers. I've asked Tim Sweeney about it on Twitter and he's said that he believes that 2-3% of game sales should cover what console makers pay for. The developers are the ones paying for the online play of their own games. In other words, console makers feel entitled to money for something they're not really spending their money to fund.
What I like most about Bellular content is that Michael has a balanced perspective and personality to commentate on the topics he discusses. He can be emotional when emotions can be a focus; he can be informative when facts should be all you need; he is curious to understand (or admit that he can't understand) the side of opposition; he is introspective to the industry he performs in and is the change he wants to see.
More content creators could learn a thing from this production. Well done on your team and I look forward to the next video.
There is no such thing as 'toxic' - its simply a buzzword to disparage criticism
Bellular News: The "Non-swear word" you're looking for is SMACK, as in "That person was talking a lot of smack about you."
This is one of the most thoughtful videos on UA-cam. Thanks, Bellular!
Another great news / opinion piece, well made by Bellular News. Always thoroughly enjoy your content, and how you always take the honest and sensible line in all of these cases. Keep up the good work guys! :)
Thank you for addressing this topic in such a complete and formal manner. Almost no other industry releases a bad product disliked by the majority of their fanbase and the company's/medias response is, "oh their just being entitled babies, just buy the product and like it!" You've nailed it and talked about the grey areas as well. I'm a longtime hardcore gamer, and an upcoming game designer, so your channel speaks volumes to me. Love your channels, your stance is always well informed and fair. Keep up the great work!
This is your best or perhaps most important video you have ever made Bel. Everything you said needs to repeated louder and echoed. Thank you.
Bellular what are your thoughts on the Henry Cavil interview where he defends fan's and associates himself as one too?
I think its good to have more well known public figures express their opinions and tell their own game/fandom experiences. I believe an underrated aspect you could add to your discussion would be the impact of fandom, as soon as an I.P. becomes a fandom it has gathered a certain degree of investment of feelings, thoughts and time of several fans. Following that thought, you can see a red thread through the events that happened for bioware fiasco, star wars/disney fiasco, star wars/ea fiasco and the several activsion blizzard fiasco's. When fans get upset because a beloved fandom is in danger, risks doing hurtful or subpar they get vocal about it.
OMG Thank you! And thank you too, American McGee! I've been saying this for ages. Entitlement and toxicity are just words for "asshat", and they're not bound by any cultural or societal boundary. And even your best friend can also sometimes be the "dungeon douche".
Nice video. I also believe there's a disconnect between people born before 1970 and people after 1980 in regards to computer knowledge and gaming culture. I grew up with Pokemon Red and my parents grew up with Tetris and Pong.
I was someone that held onto Bioware's promises as well. Sorely disappointed.. However Bioware posted this on their blog today. Maybe there's still hope?
"we recognize- that there’s still work to be done. Over the coming months we will be focusing on a longer-term redesign of the experience, specifically working to reinvent the core gameplay loop with clear goals, motivating challenges and progression with meaningful rewards - while preserving the fun of flying and fighting in a vast science-fantasy setting. And to do that properly we’ll be doing something we’d like to have done more of the first time around - giving a focused team the time to test and iterate, focusing on gameplay first."
10:40
Battlefield comes to mind, almost purchased them all over the years. Never again.
I agree, Battlefield BC2? (I think) felt like it was pandering to casual gamers for me. I like to play Death match and was bummed out when I couldnt find it. The only option was 4 v 4 v 4 v 4 squad team death match.
Thats ok though. 4v12 works. Except it took 26 bullets to drop a guy..... which meant you had to reload unless you ran LMG. This caused the game to be more about what squad rocked tighter and operated better as a team, instead of how you played the fight that you were fighting....
The game devolved into 4 man medic squads. 4 guys w LMGS. You drop the first one, and start a reload. 2 more would push out and just SPRAY while the 3rd rezzed the dead guy.
Also?!?! Not 1 single game mode with no vehicles..... And how effective was the LAV/MRAP on a tiny 4 v 12 map? Fucking very.... Which meant if you didnt play the vehicle your team would lose..... god damn...
Great potential, great engine, but no game modes that I enjoyed...
2014 called, reminded me that Gamers are dead, as reported by real gaming journalist with much ethics on the largest, most trusted and best verified gaming publications. This is a very serious post.
If I'm not entitled to quality products, you're not entitled to my money.
Where have I heard that before? 🤔
Keep on doing your job, mate. Your good at it.
This is such solid commentary. Recently subscribed, and appreciate the perspective.
Toxic online means that someone said something you dont like so you just label it as toxic because "FEELINGS"
I love your explanation (and the reason) for launching this channel. :)
The channels of you and your team have basically become my go to source of information in regard to games, just because of the differentiated opinions and Industry Insight ill get here.
Where can you learn more about the UA-cam algorithm?
The more you spam a term, the less meaningful it becomes. NPCs don’t understand this because it’s not in the program.
Thanks for reminding me of Ooblets. Those devs are scum
7:40 -ish: It's definitely not just games, and I love that you started showing a Star Wars game at that moment, because the Star Wars lovers have definitely been hit with the "toxic" and "entitled" tags recently because of a few loud and vocal buttwipes.
"Eat the rich" is always good quality educational content.
Gamers are “customers” and as paying customers we are entitled BY LAW to receive a product which is working, value for money and free from manipulative business practices. The money we hand over gives us entitlement BY LAW.
I never really got this "Toxic, Entitled gamers" thing, in my experience gamers tend to be some of the nicest people around.
I guess some game specific communities are kinda toxic but those games also tend to be more competitive and popular among teens so it's basically the causal factors as with "conventional" sports.
Great video Bellular well thought out and informative.
That being said, I am just wondering if being negative/toxic/entitled on platforms like youtube etc is driven from $$$ standpoint for the loudest voices in the room. Something that I noticed over the last few years is the rise of Thumbnails on youtube being kinda clickbaity with very negative overtones. Take a look at the ones you scrolled in this video for example. They all seem to be OMG look at how x messed up. Same with that whiteboard guy and most other folks who cover video games and are good at it.
Not saying that the material covered is done badly, quite the opposite in cases here. Matter of fact, I find your content to be quite helpful and what should be said from a level headed viewpoint.
I just imagine media and creators skimming over all the thumbs at any given day and the great majority of them seem all negative and end timely. Is it how we get our information (getting the people in the door to watch our content) or the substance of the content to be the problem and what could be done different. Lets be honest its the drama that sells and get clicks but is all of it necessary?
Food for thought i guess.. still great stuff on the meat of content guys keep up the good work.
Classic gaslighting: accuse someone of being angry until they get angry and provide validation for your argument
Its pretty simple, the media gets the games and access to the developers for free, and they want to keep it that way so many of them would never say a bad word about any games.
If you buy a car and it gets deliverd on your doorstep without a steering wheel you'd get man because its not working as it should and thats completly acceptable, but if a game is broken, buggy or missing features that where or are still advertised and you complain about it you'll get called toxic or entitled.
I personaly stoped reading reviers from any publications because you never know how they benefit from that game, if I want to play a game I watch some Let's Play's if i like it a few hours in I'll buy it myself if not then not.
ANother problem creeps up: influencers and content creators are not unbiased sources either. So many are in the devs PR group pocket that it's genuingly difficult to even pretend that Let's plays or even Twitter account are genuine.
Demos are a good way though. Too bad those are getting rarer and rarer. For live services, most dev want an early full buy, before the product ships.
Hence: never pre-order, fight the FOMO instinct!
"Unwashed masses" is a bit on the nose when referring to gamers, but the very existence of the expression reminds one that the same criticism has been used for hundreds of years by the elites against the plebs.
Replace 'Toxic, Entitled Gamers' with 'Toxic Entitled Males'
Does this sound familiar now?
Always the best analysis!
Discourse on all levels and places on the internet is “toxic”. The internet game revolves around getting clicks and upvotes, and what gets upvotes and clicks is negative takes.
Instant gratification combined with anonymity, a recipe for shortcutting straight to the worst parts of a human brain.
Thanks for bringin these news!
Part of it has to do with traditional games media trying to find their footing who didn't or wouldn't adapt to the changing environment. It also has to do with game devs who in the past have had a much bigger influence on how their games are portrayed.
May i ask what kind of game your studio is developing? If it can be categorized in a meaningful way.
Well, I dunno about you, but I think I'm going to go back to my older RPGs where everything was a complete product.
I still have my N64 Gauntlet Legends, and I've been aching to level all the way back up and beat Skorne. Anyone wanna come over? I have three controllers!
I'll agree with your points, but I'd add a few more. While I don't have swathes of studies to prove my point, I'd wager that the "gamers are entitled" is part of a bigger "geeks are entitled" phenomenon.
Star Wars fans were treated pretty much the same way with the games as they were with the movies, all the while cashing in on their passion with as much merch and winks and nudges to the original products as possible. I'll agree with your points about the divide stemming naturally from differences between the specialized press, the industry and the customer. But I would add that while gamers are emotionally invested, developers are also clearly honestly (Randy Pitchford aside) emotionally invested in their games, even shitty ones, because they represent countless hours upon hours of hard work and putting their work life first to allow for some insane crunch. So when devs pull through all that to put forward a game and it gets blasted by disgruntled gamers for things you may not even be responsible of (you're a level designer, how is it your fault that the lore guys made a major mistake in the sequel that "ruins everything"?) I can understand firing off angry tweets in the age of social media. It's not professional, nor good, nor productive, but I can understand. Of course I am fully aware that being game devs yourselves I am not teaching you anything new, but I just wanted to say that we know and we understand. We may not like it as consumers, but we understand.
Also, I can understand not wanting to mention it but there is also a big political divide in an era where the idea of "everything is political so let's really hammer our politics in our product", with specialized media, big tech and Hollywood being very very leftist and gamers filling the entire political spectrum due to their sheer numbers. Take veganism, some people make that choice of diet, good for them. But you had movie after movie promoting veganism to the point where Harley Quinn wanting to eat a goddamn burger for almost the entirety of Birds of Prey can be seen as refreshing. And with the current western political divide, having that intrude upon video games can't help but reinforce the idea that gamers are unwashed masses to media and some big studios who see themselves on the other, better side of the fence.
But I think that besides factors leading "naturally" to this unhelpful divide, there is also an incentive. For better or worse there is a gamer culture, and with the current state of affairs that culture is rather thin-skinned. That isn't conclusive to opening the market to new kinds of monetization and to new emerging markets (see the push against accepting the chinese censorship globally), but if you vilify critics with devs, media and controlled mainstream attention, you can beat the culture into submission or at least silence, which leaves no effective push-back against agressive monetization and the the like. That's not to say that I believe this is all a conspiracy by the big video game companies, to divide and pacify gamers, but I am pretty sure this serves their interest so when they saw the divide starting to form they put no effort to stopping it and patted the back of game journalists who defended them against these uneducated entitled gamers, which probably made these game journalists purr and feel like they had just received the Pullitzer award.
Just my two cents.
people should be entitled when they spend a decent sum of money on that product.
Another thing to consider is that the industry uses "Entitled Gamers" as a deflection for their shady business practices.
When gamers start "throwing a tantrum" because a game doesn;t have ADVERTISED features or content ... that's not Gamers feeling entitled, that's gamers having been sold a product or service under false pretense.
"Gameplay footage" that wasn't really gaemplay footage ranging from pre-rendered scenes passed off as gameplay for example or faked live game play that is actually scripted ...
Watchdogs, Warcraft 3 - Remastered, Anthem ...
No man's sky is a perfect example of this of course but Fallout 76 now offering game altering paid microtransactions is another.
Yes, we are entitled ... we're entitled to receive the product we were sold and not a lie.
I really like this video's messaging. One thing I cannot stand about internet culture as a whole is the dumbing down of discourse. Breaking things up into black-and-white issues, establishing what are essentially "tribes" of people who subscribe to a very specific way of thinking and the utter refusal to consider the thinking of anyone not in that tribe, sometimes going so far as to label folks not in the tribe as objectively wrong and even evil. I've often said that I would rather have a conversation with someone I do not agree with that brings up a lot of valid points than a yes-man who agrees with everything I say. The former can strengthen or even broaden my own perspective whereas a yes-man just makes you feel good and safe in your beliefs.
Honestly, if I had a nickel every time I heard someone vilify someone for disagreeing with them without even trying to engage with them, I'd probably donate it all to some kind of pro-education fund that encourages rational discourse, because I'm kind of sick and tired of this being the current normal.
It doesn't help that some people get exponentially more upset that a game set in medieval Europe doesn't have black people in it, or that a certain game only has two pronouns to pick from, than they are at companies completely milking out their beloved franchises on mobile(Hi Nintendo and Sqaure-Enix fans!). Brainwashed to the absolute core.
And it's so effin easy to dismiss criticism by trying to paint the people behind it as a bunch of hating, xenophobic sexists. Hollywood does the exact same thing when they get called out trying to cynically resurrect old franchises by putting in a woke spin on them. It's a trick to put the attention elsewhere.
So of course the gaming industry want to paint all the people exposing their shitty business practices as "toxic". It's not working nearly as well in this industry, tho. Thank god...
(The sad ending to all this, tho, is that gaming companies will probably just start moving an increasing number of resources to mobile, where they basically got free reign and a playerbase a lot less educated and a lot more receptive to bullshit monetisation than on PC/consoles. Thanks, Nintendo and Square-Enix for being such trailblazers.)
as someone who worked in retail for 10 years american mcgee is right,while there are toxic/entitled gamers (about 25% of of the gamers i've met in over 30 years of gamer are like that,the rest are amazingly friendly and helpful people who are very passionate about gaming) even retail and life in general have people like that and it's the reason i left retail,i wasn't getting paid enough to put up with half the crap i went through.
2nd blaming gaming for violence didn't work so now they are trying to make gamers as a whole look bad,also people are getting sick and tired of half assed shouldn't of left beta games being released as full games being sold at the standard $60+ price tag and are now finally pushing back and the dev's like that don't like it,they need to tread carefully as gamers will gladly move on to other games out there if they feel the dev's don't deserve their money where as the dev need people to buy their games.
This one has to be the spiciest title you made so far
I used to buy Street Fighter but now I feel they're just out to attack my wallet. Having to pay extra for costumes and even characters, come on. These things used to be unlockables in game. Wasn't there in game advertisement in the last version that you could pay to have removed? I wish more people would steer clear of companies that behave this way but if others choose to buy in and support such practices there's nothing I can do about it except not play those games.
Your honesty is overwhelming
I love it when toxic, entitled companies and "journalists" call us toxic and entitled for having standards and wanting what we spend our money on to be worth the money.
Oh this is nice to see you outside your channel .. Also yes I'm the same mindset
Honestly, I gotta agree with sentiment. @BellularNews
You're dead on about the divide between players and devs. And the disconnect in games media/critics. Look, I don't know the answer. Maybe there isn't one. All I know is this, as developers, we can try to connect with our auidence more often. Online. In person. At least, try to take steps and see things from your players' perspective.
If I may. The video game industry was, if not the first, but the industry which could get the /most/ immediate feedback. If you were playing a game on the computer in the late 90's early 00's then you were only an alt-tab and a web address away from being able to leave direct feedback on a forum, and it was used liberally. The good devs listened to the playerbase and altered their games to be more user-friendly, fixed bugs, and took on player ideas. The bad devs pretty much went under (or were under EA).
Sometime around 2010 something happened that made the devs realize that this could be used to their advantage. They began to release unfinished games and let the players be the beta testers, fixing the bugs that showed up instead of releasing a finished product.
But as players begin to catch on and push back, suddenly they were "Entitled" and "Toxic", when they were only acting on the same behavior that had been trained into them for two decades.
In short, the only ones that have changed are the devs and the way they do business.
I agree that there needs to be more communication between gamers and devs, but usually there aren't many clear channels where we gamers can express our disapproval. Sure, we can post complains and memes on stackexchange, imgur, or reddit, but we're not even sure the devs read/take them seriously, which leads to gamers' general apathy, review bombings, and emotional youtube vids. Ofc, there are some devs who interacts much with their customers through devstreams, reddit AMAs, or steamcommunity, but generally, the most we can expect from most devs nowadays is generic corporate answers
TLDR: imo there needs to be more clear channels of dev-gamer communication, and devs nowadays should take extra effort to show that they actually listen to their fans
Damn that Alice footage..would love to see that franchise make a comeback...or at least just a re-release with updated graphics ( don't touch the gameplay, that's fine as is )
How about the fact that in no other industry could a product maker insult their customers to the level developers often do and get away with it?
Its always refreshing to hear people voice out against stereotypes, though focusing negatively on gamers isn’t a new thing...
Was niche in the 70s to early 90s, gained stigma from 80s arcades and again from violence and resurgence of arcades mid-90s, and now its just being brought back again as an old standard to get views... or a stereotype resurfacing after media stayed in a bubble.
Completely agree gamer is just like any other consumer, and am glad he quoted that point. Kinda knocks those spouting off on their soap boxes down at the knees.
There is a side point to be made though. The un-empowered dislike being lied to. Moreso on points of cultural shelter and and entertainment. People identify to it, and company practices have shifted strategies over the last few decades with the advent of always online games/ services.
Additionally people are more likely to respond to something targeting that identity, though only partially due to a lack of time in their day to day schedules, or restrained lifestyles if due to age or other factors.
Finally games are recreation but carry the stigma of being toys... a word often joined with youth and immaturity. Being an adult is serious business due to responsibilities, and upkeep of cost and time, so seeking a toy is the opposite of that mindset. Plus the gate to entry is available as a kid, no matter how much nerd past times have become the norm in media over the last 2 decades. Point being any dissent can be taken as the mewling of babes and the outcries of the immature.
AND THEN FURTHER the last decade has shown a large enough outcry of toxicity has caused shady business practices of companies to change tact and give at least a token gesture to fix the short-changed actions that riled up the community in the first place. Toxicity is actually encouraged in that regard, whereas other actions rarely seem to work. And in an edge of feeling openly ignored and watching those with power to change things to willfully continue ignoring in real time (due to always active online exposure) people react in any empowering way when mistreated. Its just games are more online than a lot of activities due to their electronic, wired in nature SO the customer toxicity reaches an earlier boiling point from exposure.
All these factors breed toxicity... low age entry, the association with it being recreation, a lack of time, the early onset of identifying as a gamer, the helpless undercurrent in the face of exposed shady practices, and the ease of mass media to find a scape goat to take focus away from other things.
Yeah right, customers have the right to be pissed when companies try to scam them. Criticism is not toxic, unless your business practices are shady as hell.
good vid bellu
The words toxic and entitled are an understatement. So many gamers are unstable and mentally ill it's crazy. Not all but there's a big majority that really are. Those are the ones that give gamers a bad name. You find them in every multiplayer game and they ruin everything for everyone else.
You make some good points, the state of the industry is a big contributor. The amount of "pissed off gamers" has seen to increase over the last couple years, because customer satisfaction is at an all time low for core gaming, non-mobile. The more reasons we have for angry gamers to exist, the more angry gamers we have, the bigger that smaller pool of entitled and toxic is going to be.
The big issue these days is, that Companies like IGN, Gamespot, PCgamer and so on have a huge part of there foot in the Industry and they are to scared to be honest 100% of the time. On top of that we saw a huge shift in marketing the last couple years, more and more YT's and Twitch streamers are super important for companies to promote there games. And not many of the have the courage to be honest to there viewers about the game they promote. Game changer for me is a perfect example. I just hope that more Journalist come into the industry that ask the hard hitting questions and are not scared.
The industry is treating us like crap. I've been a lifelong gamer and it feels like we are getting exploited from every possible angle.
That being said, even gamers themselves forget that not everyone is straight, cisgender, or white. Maybe if gamers could calm down over more skin color options, gay romances, or transgender characters, feminists wouldn't have much to work with. I am an intersectional feminist myself.
I am wary of these videos because it seems to become less about consumer protections and industry ethics and becomes yet another opportunity for sexist, racist, transphobic, and/or homophobic gamers to complain that they are being called out. Yes, I know #notallgamers, but speaking less as a feminist and more as a gamer, I gotta tell you that there are systemic issues in the culture.
Absolutely we should call AAA devs on their bullshit. I mean, Blizzard is a burned out dumpster bin of what it used to be.
However, please don't use this as an opportunity to be upset that you got banned on Origin for calling someone a "h*mo," or something similarly bigoted. Let's try to be better and make this industry better at the same time. We can handle both. I know I can. I clocked in over an hour flying the damned Dodo in GTA 3. We all have similar achievements. Gamers can do anything. Let's try and do something good.
This video does cover a lot of the necessary bases. Just to add a bit on to that. Gaming media outlets as covered in a previous report are heading to some level of irrelevance with the vertical integration of consumer/developer relations (e.g. "This Week at Bungie" or BGE2 "Space Monkey" Program). It does place them in a compromised position where they're prioritising a "whatever works" approach to drive consumer interest. I've seen far too many outrage "articles" from Polygon/Kotaku/RPS/IGN that read more like blogger opinion pieces or that two page personal essay at the beginning of every food website's recipe. Even the reviews are questionable. The scores on Warcraft 3 reforged were constantly judged by the factors that were identical to the original release (story/characters/core gameplay etc) rather than the marketed product vs actual product/new content. Worst case scenario you have a VG24/7 writer admitting that in a review in progress they couldn't separate their nostalgia from the current experience and giving up trying to do so.