Someone give this man a PhD! This is one the best discussions of classical composition I’ve come across. Thank you Mr. Hurwitz and I hope many people listen to this and are inspired to look into this chapter in the repertoire. I very much enjoyed Fischer’s cycle, but my favorite Jupiter is by the Scottish Chamber Orchestra under Mackerras from about ten years ago. Of Mozart’s late symphonies the 41st was for a long time the one I couldn’t really enjoy. I think most conductors don’t know what to do with all the counterpoint in the finale, so that it often doesn’t have the impact it should. Mackerras’s account really makes it work, though, and was an “a-ha” discovery for me. He makes it sound like it could be an early Beethoven piece, bold and sure of itself, full of grandeur and joy. Thanks again for these great videos!
@@UlfilasNZ I can see five now: Dorati, Fischer, Maerzendorfer, Russell Davies and the Naxos box with six conductors. There are also large partial sets from Hogwood and Goodman as well as an ongoing series on Hansler with Fey and Spillner (who took over after Fey tragically suffered a stroke).
@@UlfilasNZ I don't know them all, and was not aware of Antonini, but that one looks interesting. Will dip my toe into that on yt. I have had good fun with the Dorati set, and quite like also Harnoncourt's traversal of the Haydn symphonies, although that's far from a complete cycle. I'm now working my way through A. Fischer's version, which so far sounds very good to my ears.
Unlearning and relearning so much about classical music since subscribing to your channel. Started listening when I was nine so it's been a journey of almost sixty years (eek!). Thank you for helping me retool my mind and tastes, Dave.
Once again, I am humbled by your incredible knowledge of music history, and also much enriched by it. I will now pull my Fischer Haydn set off the shelf, and start listening to these wonderful early symphonies.
Hi Dave, I'm in a sense moving from the future back to when you made this wonderful video. I've 'returned to the past' having just listened to your reference recordings of Mozart's last six symphonies. A number of years ago I purchased Leonard Bernstein’s Mozart Symphonies No. 39 & 41 played by the New York Philharmonic & become truly fascinated with the final movement of The Jupiter Symphony & made a bit of a study of it. Your talk here is really fabulous as I did not know the Haydn connection. I will be studying Haydn Symphony No. 12 & 70 now. Now ! As I'm back in the past, I'm going to criticise Bruno Walter's interpretation of the final movement of the reference Jupiter Symphony, however am I allowed to ? It’s way too slow and I feel loses much of that movement’s grandeur & your example above by the Danish National Chamber Orchestra is a tad too fast. Anyway, I'd better finish here, before I out stay your welcome !
Oh jeez -- having made my way through the quartets, I'm going to have to do all the symphonies, one per day, which should basically take the rest of the year. This oughtta be fun!
The Jupiter is my favorite single Mozart symphony. I’ll now give a few different recordings of Haydn’s 13th a close listen. The 70th I know somewhat, but I’ll give that another listen, too. Any particular recording recommendations welcome!
And there was I thinking I had discovered these connections... (So excited was I at the time I made this "discovery," I played these same segments for Mrs. D, saying, "Look what I've discovered! Haydn wrote this theme before Mozart wrote it!" Oh well...) [We young ones will never see as much as he has seen, or live as long.] Thanks for this splendid exposition, Dave. ~ John Drexel
A lot of it is very good, but like the Nimbus box the late symphonies aren't as great as some of the more famous sets specifically devoted to the Paris and London symphonies.
In parenthesis I just rediscovered for me Haydns Symphony no 29 - what a strange trio! Nearly disturbing nothingness.... And then the finale with its furor and dark sides! I‘ll have a Haydn-weekend... Parenthesis closed.
I like to believe that Haydn became a master at expanding next to nothing motifs and rhythms as a time saver in his extremely busy job as Kappellmeister. Mozart on the other hand was very prolific at inventing singing melodies contemporaries found tiring to follow, compared to simpler works. Mutual influence between Haydn and Mozart seemed to have toned down Mozart's prolific tendencies in favor of motif unity, while differentiating Haydn's melodies more emotionally than his previous penchant for entertaining earworms. Just my opinion.
@@DavesClassicalGuide I was being simplistic just to make the point that they began their art with different sensibilities and influences before learning from each other and maturing.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. Yes you are right at that point he needed no instruction. Perhaps I heard incorrectly. I will look into this further.
@@polenc7167 You didn't offend me at all. Where did that idea come from? I was just kidding a bit on my way to giving you my frank opinion. The simple point is that claims like that are usually meritless.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Michael Haydns Symphony No. 28 is the source of this controversy or should I say speculation. One writer, writing for a record jacket thought that Mozart used M. Haydn Sympny 28 as somesort of model for the Jupiter. His reasoning was that M Haydns symphony 28 preceded the Jupiter by 3 weeks. And the two were friends and colleagues. Also he says Mozart request copies of counterpoint from his father at about this time. (Was Mozart's father still alive at this time?) This is sort of like circumstantial evidence if this went to trial. But listen to Micaehel Haydn's 28th its is a stunner.
Oh dear, you infected me with Haydn again...! I know that the Jupiter is bigger, but I like Haydn better: more movement, more wit, sharper, clearer. He was is and will be always of „my“ composers.
What you are doing here is monumental, beautiful! When you get a chance, I really look forward to your "best London Symphonies".
Someone give this man a PhD! This is one the best discussions of classical composition I’ve come across. Thank you Mr. Hurwitz and I hope many people listen to this and are inspired to look into this chapter in the repertoire. I very much enjoyed Fischer’s cycle, but my favorite Jupiter is by the Scottish Chamber Orchestra under Mackerras from about ten years ago. Of Mozart’s late symphonies the 41st was for a long time the one I couldn’t really enjoy. I think most conductors don’t know what to do with all the counterpoint in the finale, so that it often doesn’t have the impact it should. Mackerras’s account really makes it work, though, and was an “a-ha” discovery for me. He makes it sound like it could be an early Beethoven piece, bold and sure of itself, full of grandeur and joy. Thanks again for these great videos!
And now I'll be impatiently anticipating a monstrously long chat about complete sets of the Haydn symphonies!
Except there aren't enough for it be monstrously long, surely?
@@UlfilasNZ I can see five now: Dorati, Fischer, Maerzendorfer, Russell Davies and the Naxos box with six conductors. There are also large partial sets from Hogwood and Goodman as well as an ongoing series on Hansler with Fey and Spillner (who took over after Fey tragically suffered a stroke).
@@jeroendejong6680 Do you know them and do you have any recommendations? I'm kind of hanging out for Antonini to finish his!
@@UlfilasNZ I don't know them all, and was not aware of Antonini, but that one looks interesting. Will dip my toe into that on yt. I have had good fun with the Dorati set, and quite like also Harnoncourt's traversal of the Haydn symphonies, although that's far from a complete cycle. I'm now working my way through A. Fischer's version, which so far sounds very good to my ears.
Antonini's cycle is set to be complete in 2032, apparently there are 8 cd's out so far. What I hear on yt seems pretty spectacular.
Unlearning and relearning so much about classical music since subscribing to your channel. Started listening when I was nine so it's been a journey of almost sixty years (eek!). Thank you for helping me retool my mind and tastes, Dave.
Thank you for listening. I'm so happy that even a very experienced listener like you can get something out of this adventure.
Once again, I am humbled by your incredible knowledge of music history, and also much enriched by it. I will now pull my Fischer Haydn set off the shelf, and start listening to these wonderful early symphonies.
Terrific! Thank you. I was not familiar with Haydn’s 70th Symphony. How cloud anyone denigrate Haydn! Equal to Mozart in every respect.
Great conclusion of a wonderful chat. Thank you so much!
Incredibly educational and intriguing video. Thank you!
Hi Dave, I'm in a sense moving from the future back to when you made this wonderful video. I've 'returned to the past' having just listened to your reference recordings of Mozart's last six symphonies. A number of years ago I purchased Leonard Bernstein’s Mozart Symphonies No. 39 & 41 played by the New York Philharmonic & become truly fascinated with the final movement of The Jupiter Symphony & made a bit of a study of it. Your talk here is really fabulous as I did not know the Haydn connection. I will be studying Haydn Symphony No. 12 & 70 now. Now ! As I'm back in the past, I'm going to criticise Bruno Walter's interpretation of the final movement of the reference Jupiter Symphony, however am I allowed to ? It’s way too slow and I feel loses much of that movement’s grandeur & your example above by the Danish National Chamber Orchestra is a tad too fast. Anyway, I'd better finish here, before I out stay your welcome !
Oh jeez -- having made my way through the quartets, I'm going to have to do all the symphonies, one per day, which should basically take the rest of the year. This oughtta be fun!
It will be.
The Jupiter is my favorite single Mozart symphony. I’ll now give a few different recordings of Haydn’s 13th a close listen. The 70th I know somewhat, but I’ll give that another listen, too. Any particular recording recommendations welcome!
And there was I thinking I had discovered these connections... (So excited was I at the time I made this "discovery," I played these same segments for Mrs. D, saying, "Look what I've discovered! Haydn wrote this theme before Mozart wrote it!" Oh well...)
[We young ones will never see as much as he has seen, or live as long.]
Thanks for this splendid exposition, Dave.
~ John Drexel
Amazing content!.. really enjoyed this!
David, I wasn't aware that Naxos had a complete Haydn symphonies box! I assume you recommend that box (?).
A lot of it is very good, but like the Nimbus box the late symphonies aren't as great as some of the more famous sets specifically devoted to the Paris and London symphonies.
In parenthesis
I just rediscovered for me Haydns Symphony no 29 - what a strange trio! Nearly disturbing nothingness.... And then the finale with its furor and dark sides! I‘ll have a Haydn-weekend...
Parenthesis closed.
Music students will learn a thing or 2 from this.
Thanks, dude
I like to believe that Haydn became a master at expanding next to nothing motifs and rhythms as a time saver in his extremely busy job as Kappellmeister. Mozart on the other hand was very prolific at inventing singing melodies contemporaries found tiring to follow, compared to simpler works. Mutual influence between Haydn and Mozart seemed to have toned down Mozart's prolific tendencies in favor of motif unity, while differentiating Haydn's melodies more emotionally than his previous penchant for entertaining earworms. Just my opinion.
Frankly it sounds nonsensical to me, but of course you're entitled to it!
@@DavesClassicalGuide I was being simplistic just to make the point that they began their art with different sensibilities and influences before learning from each other and maturing.
I had always heard thatMozart obtained a copy of a Michael Haydn symphony to use as his model for the Jupiter. Is there any truth to this?
Well, I wasn't there, but logically it's nonsense. By that point Mozart had no need of anyone's models.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Sorry, I didn't mean to offend you. Yes you are right at that point he needed no instruction. Perhaps I heard incorrectly. I will look into this further.
@@polenc7167 You didn't offend me at all. Where did that idea come from? I was just kidding a bit on my way to giving you my frank opinion. The simple point is that claims like that are usually meritless.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Michael Haydns Symphony No. 28 is the source of this controversy or should I say speculation. One writer, writing for a record jacket thought that Mozart used M. Haydn Sympny 28 as somesort of model for the Jupiter. His reasoning was that M Haydns symphony 28 preceded the Jupiter by 3 weeks. And the two were friends and colleagues. Also he says Mozart request copies of counterpoint from his father at about this time. (Was Mozart's father still alive at this time?) This is sort of like circumstantial evidence if this went to trial. But listen to Micaehel Haydn's 28th its is a stunner.
@@polenc7167 I know the symphony, and it sounds nothing like Mozart. A lovely work, though, you're right about that!
Oh dear, you infected me with Haydn again...! I know that the Jupiter is bigger, but I like Haydn better: more movement, more wit, sharper, clearer. He was is and will be always of „my“ composers.
No argument from me!