I am Seventh-day Adventist I follow the Bible, Ellen White and the pioneers who support the Bible and I DO NOT APPROVE WOMEN ORDINATION. May the weeds fall out so that we, The Remnant Church can be in (one accord).
I am a woman who teaches and preaches in church. That by no means makes me eligible to be ordained as a elder or pastor. I stand on the Word of God and can do no other. God help us.
I am a woman, I share the word of God, have preached and taught in church when there was no man to take the responsibility; BUT I am 100% percent AGAINST ordination of women. Let God be God and every man a liar. Wolves have crept into the flock and our women need to read for themselves what God says about the issue and take a stand.
Amen Sister. We need more women to dare to take a stand. We need to raise the banner of truth not take away from it. If Paul was culturally conditioned when he said that elders and pastors should be men it by default means that he was not inspired. And if we say that he was not inspired; how are we going to say that we are a church that follows "only the scripture" and how we are going to teach others the truth of sabbath keeping when others use the same cultural argument for the sabbath issue? I became Adventist in 2001 because I learned that the church was scriptural in every one of their doctrines I hope the world church keep what the church has been before I became a member. I believe that the instructions in scripture are to be followed in any year and in any country we live regardless of the culture influences or if the biblically instructions are not "politically correct". We are called to follow "Thus say the Lord" and not what the culture tells us is correct. I was once a Sunday worshiper now i worship sabbath because the scriptures says so. And I want to see my church uphold truth in every aspect because God will take a church that "keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus"
Amen Sister! My new pastor just elected 2 female elders in my church, when I gave him Titus 1:5, he said the Bible is silent about WO and encourage me to read the Bible...😕 I should say, I'm so discouraged, but I'm glad I had spoken up.
Nolberto Figueroa well woman can teach , give bible studies but no to be the pastor that what the bible teach us , now diferent country have diferent culture but if we are cristian , we have to take the culture of the bible that is the best
Audie There is no command against it. That's the primary point of study. Much of what is stated is about married women. What about single women? Surely they do not have to be dictated to by a male. The symbolism of the earthly sanctuary is over. The only worship symbols we have now are bread and wine and baptism. surely everything else is open for discussion, in the absence of a "thus saith the Lord".
Women can do what ever they want to and be what ever they want to be! If God says don't eat of the forbidden 🌲, the woman will eat of it, nobody is going to tell her what not to do! She will also feed the forbidden fruit to almost any man and he will eat of it too! That just shows how much power women have over men! Women have the ability to laugh at God, lie to God, tell their husbands what to do and he will do it! Then she will change her mind and she will tell her husband to get rid of that woman and his son and he will ask God, 'what should I do?' and God tells Abram, 'do what the one who wears the pants in your family tells you to do!' and the rest is history, on account of two women who told two men what to do and they did it!!! Then there is the woman who was told not to look back and she had two daughters who both had bright 💡 💡 ideas!!! If God had told one woman way back in history, 'women can't be pastors, women can't be elders, women can't be priests', do you really think women would have obeyed God? The only way God could get a woman to obey Him would is by using reverse psychology but unfortunately for God He diesn't lie and He doesn't tempt women to do evil, it just comes naturally to them.
"will be a restoration to the order of things as they existed before the fall of Adam in Eden. " That's exactly what this pastor is preaching : before the fall , Adam was the head and Eve submitted to his leadership . After the fall ,a war of the sexes began with Eve wanting to rule over Adam .That's why God so wisely said : "HE shall rule over thee". Letting women run the show is repeating the fall over and over . Man is God's glory. Woman is man's glory . Man was made FIRST.
Even without the dozens of other scriptures I Timothy and Titus show us that God's intention was never to have women as Elders and Pastors. If the Comference decides to allow it, we may as well toss out all the Biblical truths that our church teaches.
The plain truth. The Bible's truth. I am and Elder in the church at my community and have my wife and other strong women supporting the spreading of the word of God as an SDA member. Let us follow and obey God's teachings. Man was chosen from the begining to lead. Woman came from man. Our women are willing to work alongside the males and also belief and know their role in the church. We love and respect our women. God bless our women.
@@cromwell531 Apparently it's a little ahead of yours. "Man was chosen from the beginning to lead". Only in marriage. "Woman came from man" - from his rib, as an equal, according to EGW. Only after sin entered was a woman's role in marriage to be lower than a man's, yet he was supposed to treat her the way Jesus treats the church - respecting individuals and listening to them. If I am single, what man is to boss me around? All of them? You're kidding, right? And you need to remember that a woman's vote in the church, which is not a dictatorship, is equal to a man's vote.
@@xymonau2468 - An elder leads a local church. But how can he lead a church consisting of men and *women* when he is not expected to lead women outside marriage as well? And by the way: Woman's role was actually lower even before sin entered the world! Otherwise Pauls's statement in 1Tim 2: 13 ("For Adam was *formed first* , then Eve) would be quite meaningless, wouldn't it? And finally: *Leadership* is neither bossing somebody around nor disrespecting him; and it is definitely not a form of dictatorship. Distorting words and their meaning is not the best version of rhetoric.
I'm a woman who believes that all were created by God with equal rights but not equal authority , to uphold doctrines of the world is to down cast God's doctrines let self be crucified and God be lifted up.let's not help the devil weaken what God instituted why God made it so, is for our good its one of the mysteries we will understand later just like why women have to give birth ..women be content with what God has given us
John S Man holds headship in marriage and thus the wife is called to submit to him (1 Pet 3:1, 5; Eph 5:22). If this were not the case then there would be no way forward when there is irresolvable conflict or difference of opinion. Both men and women are equal heirs of salvation (Gal 3:26-29; 1 Pet 3:7) but their roles are different in marriage. This reality is part of the basis for the gender based restriction on the office of elder/bishop. Study the Scriptures friend. An elder is supposed to be one who rules his own house well because if he does not do that then how can he take care of God’s church? (1 Tim 3:5). The same verb (Gr: proïstēmi - to rule) is used to explain what the elders do in the church (See 1 Th 5:12 and 1 Tim 5:17; See also Hebrews 13:7, 17, 24 although a different verb is used there). The point is that this office is one of governance. It makes one responsible for others in an authoritative way and it is what the apostles and elders do. I would also note that the elder is supposed to be “apt to teach” (Gr: didaktikos) (1 Tim 3:2) but back in 1 Timothy 2 Paul appears to forbid authoritative teaching (Gr: didasko) from a woman over the man because of creation order (vs 13) and the fall (vs 14). Yet if we ordain a woman as an elder or pastor then how are we not allowing exactly what Paul forbade? Is it not a manifest sign that says we have negated creation order and its impact on roles?
John S You say that “1 Peter 3:7 is not about salvation” but the verse is about “being heirs together of the grace of life” thus it really is about salvation. It is similar to Galatians 3:26-29 which tells us that all who have put on Christ are one in Him and “heirs according to the promise.” Now you say that “count her as heir” means “equally ranked” and no one is saying that a woman is not an equal heir with a man. What was said is that in marriage there are different roles or functions for both genders. No one who is honest with what the Bible says can deny this. The husband is the head of the wife: 3 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;…5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands (1 Pet 3:1,5) 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. (Eph 5:22-24) 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor 11:3) You have also written that I mentioned that “authority and headship belong to the male gender based on 2 verses” but that is a generic overstatement. I wrote about man’s headship “in marriage” and as the verses above reveal this is beyond dispute. Secondly, I wrote that there are also different roles in the church, and the office of elder is based upon having headship at home. And there were more than 2 verses that I gave to defend the premise that men and women have different roles “in marriage” and in the “church.” They were 1 Tim 3:1-5; 1 Timothy 2:11-15 and we could also mentioned 1 Cor 11:3-16; 1 Cor 14:34-37. Moving on you claim that I “don’t see the abuse of authority being corrected by the Holy Spirit.” This is an assumption on your part. Since I deal with the Bible holistically I am well aware of the Biblical injunctions that husbands should not abuse their position as heads in the home (1 Pet 3:7; Col 3:19; Eph 5:25-29) Next up you say that “1 Timothy 2:12 is not about church roles” but “its about marriage due to false doctrine and genealogy” etc,… You have attempted to go to 1 Timothy 1 to set the context for what is in chapter 2 but appear to have missed the more immediate literary context. Paul is speaking to Timothy and telling him what he needs to exhort the various categories of believers to do- that prayers be made for all, especially civil leaders (1 Tim 2:1,2), that men pray everywhere (1 Tim 2:8), that women dress modestly and adorn themselves with good works (1 Tim 2:9,10) and then comes the controversial verses: 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1 Tim 2:11-15) Now you have a very creative explanation of this passage and it’s conjecture. Paul says nothing of the sort and your explanation really appears like a way to get around his injunction. You say that “Paul never forbade authoritative role for women” but that directly contradicts what he said. Again moving on you claim that I have said that “this means women aren’t allowed to teach.” I suggest that you read what I ACTUALLY wrote instead of creating a strawman. I wrote that in “1 Timothy 2 Paul appears to forbid authoritative teaching from a women over the man because of creation order.” I did not say that a woman could never teach. If 1 Timothy 2 where the only passage on the matter that is what I would say but once again I deal with the Bible holistically. You see Paul allowed a woman to pray or prophesy (which means to exhort in order to edify - 1 Cor 14:3,4) for the church but was concerned that she be properly attired when doing so. The woman was to wear a covering as a sign of respect to her head (the man). This sign of “power on her head” (vs 10) prevented anyone from assuming that she was attempting to usurp authority over the man. There is no problem with that type of teaching or the type that happens with the consent and in the presence of the husband, (as is the case with Aquila and Priscilla taking Apollos unto themselves to expound unto him the way of God more perfectly) Finally let’s talk about 1 Timothy 3 which says what an elder "must be." While polygamy was likely in view here Paul was not “correcting polygamy” as you have claimed. He did not say that a polygamist needed to fix the error by divorcing the other wives or any such thing. But he did forbid such a man from being an elder. Now tell me if a polygamist is forbidden from being an elder because of multiple wives then how in the world can you argue that a woman is not also forbidden? Can a woman be the husband of one wife? Yes or no? And yes there is a comparison between the home and church inherent in this passage. Therefore I ask is a woman the head of a household according to God's Word? Or is that role reserved for the husband? Again what say you? Now I do not believe in hyper-literalism with this passage but people like to remove the gender specifics in the name of principle and this I cannot do because it violates the overall context of Scripture, specifically the Pauline references alluded to previously. And you say that “the bible had deaconesses and elders consisted of females (1 Timoth 5: 1-2, 17).” Let’s examine those verses: 5 Rebuke not an elder (Gr: presbyetro - masculine), but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren; 2 The elder women (Gr: presbyteras - feminine) as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity….17 Let the elders (Gr: presbyteroi - masculine) that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. (1 Tim 5:1,2, 17) The mistake you are making here is understandable. You are conflating the office of elder (a position of leadership in the church) with being an elderly member (an older person) in the church. The early church had elderly people of both genders (presbytero - older man and presbytera - older woman) but it did not have any (presbyteras) women who ruled in the office of elder. Only male elders did that. Pay close attention to the genders in the verses you gave above and you will see this. And finally I have not forgotten Joel 2:28, 29. I would urge you not to forget that this same Spirit inspired the written Word of God, including Paul’s writings and is never bestowed in a manner that contradicts it. And Phoebe was a servant of the church. I have no objection to that. What I object to is ordaining a women as an elder/bishop because such a course violates the Word of God.
John, you no one argues that all believers are heirs with Jesus. It absoluetly does NOT mean equally ranked. It doesnt follow that women should be ordained. It also doesnt follow that women are equal with men in AUTHORITY - in the home or in the church. Read Eph ch 5. Christ is head, then man, then woman. Head means leader. No one ever argues against women in ministry. That is to be partaken of all believers. It doesnt follow that a woman heads the house over the man in ultimate decisions, nor does it follow that a woman leads the church either. Your conclusions are not based on Bible. All of your examples are ministry examples, not ordination examples. These scripture selections do not bolster your position in any way. Read AGAIN what Paul says about women teaching men. It is NOT about marriage. Nowhere in the passage is marriage brought up. The final verse is in answer to what came in 12, 13 and 14. What Paul is saying that, "in spite of the fact that this happend, you will be saved through the rearing of the family, if you continue in Faith, love and sanctity. He is addressing the woman only, and not in the context of marriage. 1 Tim 2:12... "Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor... Note vs 13 and 14 as to the reasons why. Clearly, that statment is a timeless one, having nothing to do with culture, but based on the headship of the man as God has instructed, from the Garden onward.
Pt.5 She was perfectly happy in her Eden home by her husband’s side; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered that there was a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. But in attempting to climb higher than her original position, she fell far below it. This will most assuredly be the result with the Eves of the present generation if they neglect to cheerfully take up their daily life duties in accordance with God’s plan.TESTIMONY TREASURES, vol.1, Page 411
“The subordination of Eve to Adam following the entrance of sin in no way reflected dishonor on her, but was intended to bring harmony and contribute to her fullest happiness. As the husband is the head of the home, so AS THE HUSBAND IS THE HEAD OF THE HOME, SO HE IS THE NATURAL LEADER OF A GROUP OF HOMES IN THE CHURCH CONGREGATION.” -SDA Bible Commentary vol. 7 p. 296
the strong conformist pressures of our modern society. --------- that was a WONDERFUL description of what is going on. I feel for President Wilson. In the modern age of political correctedness and the need for positive public relations, he has to balance between not doing anything to deter anyone from coming into the 3 Angels Message and yet remaining firm on the standards of the Bible. This deep pressure to conform to modern society has manifested itself in SO MANY issues in the sda Church
Just a note: I do not agree that a woman should be ordained. I am a woman,and my comment by no means is that women have no value.In every church,women help with many tasks to help the ministry.That should be limited to that.Surely,this whole debate,must come from a type of woman.The one who confuses their rights in society,but mixing it in the church. Why is this so important? What is our purpose,in these last days? Woman Ordination? Lets get real, women should limit to what a woman should do in or for the church.There are so many roles a woman can fill to help,Having said this,Do you not see what are you doing? Why do women,(some), have to push this forever? This is a spiritual. organization,not like running to be promoted,in a job.Stay,where you are,behumble quiet, and let man do their ordination.It is a shame,that the Sda does this.I am a Sda believer,and yet would prefer to focus,on my family, keeping them safe,,It is all about control.What would Jesus say to you? Maybe,go home and sin no more.Meaning,this issue is a sin in my opinion,totally in the dark, woman should fullfil their beautiful role in life,especially in faith,Do not tribe to be in control.Rather be a humble servant.Your values are not any less,but wanting to be in control is not biblical.You can twist all verses,it your likeness,the question remains,Are you more righteous if you are in charge?I thing Not at all.
Quote from EGW regarding the world church: "Christ gives power to the voice of the church. 'Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.' No such thing is countenanced as one man’s starting out upon his own individual responsibility and advocating what views he chooses, irrespective of the judgment of the church. God has bestowed the highest power under heaven upon His church. It is the voice of God in His united people in church capacity which is to be respected. 3T 450. The world church voted against women's ordination. That is the voice of God. Yet there are those who thumb their nose at God and ordain women anyway. God help them and the church.
Amen bro: it's not funny that they have no back up to relate to. Scripture has more to say against WO, than if anything pro it. They have to grasp at straws to make a single point. You can tell it's not biblical because the explanations are too long. God is not the author of confusion but of Order! Eg. A comment on this page says" Paul gave the Adam and Eve eg for a husband and wife." A wife isn't to lead or teach her husband... "Yet goes on to say that women can be ordained . This is asinine. I've heard others say that the Holy Spirit is the female( she ) counterpart of the Godhead: and they are pro WO. To make it worst they cannot provide evidence with a simple text and prey upon ppl who seem vulnerable by insinuations of Greek translations. God bless the church that it will not submit to satan
XxodiaX Friend, we must face the fact that the Great Shaking is coming to a climax. Soon the sheeple (tares) in the church will walk away, following the leaders who are intelligent but do not have the living Christ abiding in them. God help us.
Most people jump on this, but aren’t so zealous to promote that women are to be keepers of the home. Seems like people believe in the word of God as long as it doesn’t hurt their pockets
Noun 1. ordination - the status of being ordained to a sacred office status, position - the relative position or standing of things or especially persons in a society; "he had the status of a minor"; "the novel attained the status of a classic"; "atheists do not enjoy a favorable position in American life" Also, how would any of that negate Jesus' own teaching in Matthew 23 v8-12?
This topic is SO PLAIN in the Bible that this should NEVER be a controversy in ANY Church that believes in the Reformation concept of SOLA SCRIPTURA. But we as Adventists have the added testimony of the Spirit of Prophecy that ALL doctrine in the SDA Church should be based on the Bible ALONE. If ever there was a woman worthy of being ordained as a pastor, Ellen White was that woman... yet not only was she never ordained, she didn't occupy ANY church position- whether Elder, or president, etc.
Just tell me which man has authority over a single woman. Also, is ordination something magical apart from the recognition by a church of someone's calling? Thirdly, how dare Ellen White preach, teach, reprove and lead?
ISA 3:12 As for my people,children are their oppressors,and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. Also as Adventists we claim that our doctrines come from the pattern in the sanctuary . I challenge anyone to find a single sanctuary based scripture that justifies women's ordination. I call my church sisters to humble themselves and repent from being modern day Eve's. Much Christian love Pat nz
And you males claim, God only used Deborah as an insult to the males in Israel? So, you think, God would have a law, and sin , and break His own Law? God, don't sin against His Laws, if He used A Woman, or speaks an analogy, where He gives an approving of A woman Servant of His, or A Woman Compass A man! It can't be against His Order, He Don't break His Own Rules!!!
Everywhere you find the word Elder used it's referring to a (Pastor) or a Church Leader. There was 70 th Disciples some of which were women, in Acts 9:36 there's a female Disciple! I searched the Bible found five women , who have a church inside their homes.
God ordain women for a different role in ministry, this does not make them inferior, but empowers them to do a work that men can not do. If they feel that they cannot service in ministry unless they have the title of pastor or elder, then they must examine their true agenda and their interpretation of the scripture. Times have changed, but God's ordain plan for men and women in their different roles have not.
Oh if the people of God open there eyes? Both Woman and Man can serve in Ministry because the Bible and Ellen White never speak againts it nor in favour woman Ordination in Jesus Christ in SDA Church.? All can serve whether Man or Woman or of any nations and languages.
Pt. 4 IMPORTANCE OF WOMEN'S WORK-->The sin of this age is disregard of God’s express commands. The power of influence in a wrong direction is very great. Eve had all that her wants required. There was nothing lacking to make her happy, but intemperate appetite desired the fruit of the only tree that God had withheld. She had no need of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but she permitted her appetite and curiosity to control her reason.
Pt. We simply are going through our own wanderings in the wilderness due to our uncircumcised hearts and Laodicean stupor. We have Korah-like Rebellion in the camp, a modern-Eve like independence in our churches, and a WORLD-LOVING and World-CONFORMING leadership that are too cowardly to stand FIRMLY on a "thus saith the Lord".
This was the plain testimony, given 20 years ago, that was instrumental in settling the matter of individual SDA divisions ordaining women as ministers. The issue should have been settled but some do not understand what the Lord has plainly revealed and think it unjust while others are simply dissatisfied with it and think they know better. Thus the NAD started a propaganda campaign to change how Seventh-day Adventists interpret the Word of God with respect to women’s roles in the church. It has caused much confusion and division in the church and the issue is now upon us again. If I understand correctly the same exact matter (of individual SDA divisions having autonomy to ordain women as ministers) is going to be voted upon again at the GC session this year. Friends, the Scriptures and the testimonies have not changed and what was said in the presentation above should still decisively settle the issue. The only point I feel that needs minor clarification is there is only one man who has spiritual headship OF the church, His Name is Jesus! He is the sole Head OF the church but He is not the only head IN the church. The body of Christ is composed of various family units that have headship operative in them and, according to Scripture, it is only the man who is qualified to be the head of a home. That is one of the prerequisites for holding of the office of elder/bishop. The Scriptures, which are plain upon the rights and relations of men and women teach spiritual roles for male and female. These transcend culture and are based on the law of God as revealed in creation order (1 Tim 2:11-15; 1 Tim 3:1-5; 1 Cor 11:3-9; 1 Cor 14:34-37). A vote in favor of women being ordained as ministers goes against this plain revelation of God's Word.
The Bible clearly states: 1 Timothy 2:11-15 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. 1 Corinthians 14:34, 35 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. KJV
Should slaves obey their masters with fear? YES or NO? --------- Here's another question: did either Paul or Jesus seek to eliminate slavery during their time? And another: did Paul admonish Onesimus to return to his master in the book Philemon? Thirdly, do we not have a Master (in a spiritual sense) as Christians? Then the answer is obvious... YES slaves ought to obey their Masters in the SAME WAY that wives obey their husbands- EXCEPT where obedience means violating God's commandments
Isaiah is speaking to woman.....He is speaking to Zion ( which is the church) as evidenced in Jeremiah 6:2 ( a comely and delicate woman). This is the same woman found in Revelation 12, so in essence, Isaiah is speaking to The church and not a literal woman
That's my whole issue with this man's presentation. Why refrain from dedicating/setting someone apart for service based on gender? For a church who claims to hold to a doctrine of the priesthood of all believers, it doesn't make sense. Also, this church also claims that a full restoration of the kingdom of God will be a restoration to the order of things as they existed before the fall of Adam in Eden. My view is that the followers of Christ are to bring about the kingdom of God now.
In Psm.68:11-13 this scriptures is speaking about a woman announcing God's words. The King James Version omitted the part of the women. But in verse# 12,13 God uses (She&Her ) this is said to be prophesy, I agree, she's a widow , poor , lacking in pots, has enemies that are considered Kings ie ( preachers) He promises Her that blessings are coming to Her.
This was a "dedication for service". Not a placing of persons in "order" above or below other persons. This is what "ordination" means. It is contrary to the teachings if Jesus in Matthew 23. Ordination came from the Roman military custom of changing the political status of an officer every time he was given a promotion. We don't have that kind of an authority system in Christianity. We are all brothers and equal according to the teachings of Jesus. We have only one superior - Jesus.
The scriptures says. I am the Lord and I change not.. so why are people fighting what the Lord said?? She shall be saved in child bearing. Not preaching.
Paul literally writes a letter to a female elder... 2 john 1 . God ordained a woman to lead and judge nations and armies. the first preacher evangelist was a woman. woman is made in Gods image and nowhere in the bible does it say that God told eve about the apple God only told Adam... so when eve bit the apple nothing happened sin only fell when Adam did, but God says to Satan, you used a woman to create sin and now i will use a woman to create salvation ( i will put enmity between Satan and the woman and between your offspring and hers,he will crush your head and you will strike his heal).husbands have no authority over their wives and neither do the wives have authority over their husbands both submit to each other. eph 5 21 husbands submit to wives and wives submit to husbands out of reverence for the lord. the man is the head of woman as Christ is head of the church in this way man should give himself up for his wife as Christ gave himself up for the church. timothy 1 2 is Paul talking about A woman (a specific pagan woman from a religion of female domination and prostitution ) who bullied over A man (her husband) and she was disturbing the church and twice in the bible is she talked about and refused to teach in the church and told to be submissive to god. theirs so may more examples of women leading and being ordained by god.
16:16 submission to the Word of God, not reinterpretation. Anything against what and how the early Christians believed and taught is a reinterpretation. The early Christians were closer and even contemporaries of the Apostles that were taught by our Lord, any deviation from early Christian teaching and beliefs were and is heresy.
God also allowed Queens to rule over their Kingdom, Queen Esther wrote decrees for her people, 11Chron.9:12 Queen of Sheba ruled over her kingdom, in Acts 8:26 Queen Candace ruled over her Kingdom,In Luke 11:31 God uses A Queen to Judge Men in this Generation!
Then in Isaiah 40:9,10 same thing again, King James omits , O Thou Woman, that bring good tidings to Zion! He tell's her to lift up her voice, lift it up, be not afraid! Then say to the cities! Why else would these words be omitted!
And 2John was referring to a Lady as the Elder! And to all you males who want to say, John is calling the church the Lady, then turn the page, and explain to me, why He's not calling that church, the Lady! You need to make sure your right, before you think to correct someone else !!
@Darlene Garza - In this respect you may be right: The addressed lady is not the church but a *real woman* . She is called a 'kyria'. That's the female form of 'kyrios' (lord). And as 'lady' never was a clerical designation she could have been a landowner or something else of this type with servants at her disposal. But the *only elder* mentioned in the letter is the author and sender himself: *John* the apostle. Hence there is no "elderess" in 2John - it's only in your imagination. So don't try to read your feminist ideology into the text!
No a husband isn't the natural leader of a church, it's who God called to lead that church, just because He 's a husband doesn't make Him a leader over women that's not His wife, not every male would be called into ministry! And in Acts 9:36 a female Disciple, in Rom.16:7 was Junia an Apostle who was put in prison with Paul!And there were five women who started churches, within their homes, there's never a mention of a male preacher, so they were the pastors!
In 1Tim.5:1,2 is speaking about Elders, and they are both MALES&FEMALES ! And if you read though #17-19 they can preach, teach and pastor. Let the Elders rule well, that's in authority role,be worthy of double honor, especially they who labour in the Word& Doctrine.And they are to be paid! And in the commentary, they said this isn't the same as the other Elder. And it means a older saint. But no it doesn't ! In Titus 2:1-3 shows that a older saint is refer to as AGED SAINTS!
And there Overseer never refers to a male preacher, speaks directly to the woman concerning church matters. In 1Corin.7: 34,35 Paul is speaking to single women ,suggesting they remain single, in order to attend unto The Lord ! This shows you Paul was using women in ministry. Males have taken 1Corin . 14:34,35& 1Tim.2:11-13 both were referring to Husband & Wife's relationship! And wife's are under the obedience of their own husband.
Philip4:2,3Acts17:34,Rom.16:12,Philimon Apphia started a church, no male with her!Acts 18:34 Damaris started a church, no male with her!111John the Elect Lady was a Elder, no male with her!In 1Corin.7:34,35 Paul speaking to women in Ministry!Rom.16:1 Phebe started a church, no male with her!
In 11Kings22:14 Huldah taught five Priests, the law of God, they were ordered to go to Her! In 1Corin.9:5 Women also getting paid in ministry!Read Gen.1:27 is what God said!In Luke 8:3 Joanna& Susana worked in ministry&Paul! In Luke 12:45 menservants & maidservant were beaten for the Gospel sake!
And the Woman in Revelation 12, is Israel, she brought forth the man-child who was caught up to His Throne! That's Jesus! And Zion isn't the church, Zion is a nation of People, the church is the Body of Christ! In ICorin.12:12-19!!
The commentary in Isaiah 40:9,10 shows that the prophet Isaiah is speaking to a preacher , so is this preacher a female! Neither Zion nor Jerusalem is a preacher!
And God referred to nations as women, but Israel, has never been a servant of God! The Nation of Israel hasn't served God! A Believer can Be called Israel, and we are married to Christ ! God, can't refer this to the unsaved, only saved ones! And again , God wouldn't use a analogy of something, that you males are claiming that is against His laws! In Jeremiah 31:22& Ish.54:1-17 is both an analogy of God saying a women will be His Servant and She will lead a man!!! God never speaks, some thing, He
The church isn't called A woman, the church is called the body, and the complete body, is called the Bride of Christ! They never referred to a single church as a lady or woman! Try, effecting the truth!
I am Seventh-day Adventist I follow the Bible, Ellen White and the pioneers who support the Bible and I DO NOT APPROVE WOMEN ORDINATION. May the weeds fall out so that we, The Remnant Church can be in (one accord).
I am a woman who teaches and preaches in church. That by no means makes me eligible to be ordained as a elder or pastor. I stand on the Word of God and can do no other. God help us.
I am a woman, I share the word of God, have preached and taught in church when there was no man to take the responsibility; BUT I am 100% percent AGAINST ordination of women. Let God be God and every man a liar. Wolves have crept into the flock and our women need to read for themselves what God says about the issue and take a stand.
Amen Sister. We need more women to dare to take a stand. We need to raise the banner of truth not take away from it. If Paul was culturally conditioned when he said that elders and pastors should be men it by default means that he was not inspired. And if we say that he was not inspired; how are we going to say that we are a church that follows "only the scripture" and how we are going to teach others the truth of sabbath keeping when others use the same cultural argument for the sabbath issue? I became Adventist in 2001 because I learned that the church was scriptural in every one of their doctrines I hope the world church keep what the church has been before I became a member. I believe that the instructions in scripture are to be followed in any year and in any country we live regardless of the culture influences or if the biblically instructions are not "politically correct". We are called to follow "Thus say the Lord" and not what the culture tells us is correct. I was once a Sunday worshiper now i worship sabbath because the scriptures says so. And I want to see my church uphold truth in every aspect because God will take a church that "keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus"
Amen Sister! My new pastor just elected 2 female elders in my church, when I gave him Titus 1:5, he said the Bible is silent about WO and encourage me to read the Bible...😕 I should say, I'm so discouraged, but I'm glad I had spoken up.
Nolberto Figueroa well woman can teach , give bible studies but no to be the pastor that what the bible teach us , now diferent country have diferent culture but if we are cristian , we have to take the culture of the bible that is the best
Audie There is no command against it. That's the primary point of study. Much of what is stated is about married women. What about single women? Surely they do not have to be dictated to by a male. The symbolism of the earthly sanctuary is over. The only worship symbols we have now are bread and wine and baptism. surely everything else is open for discussion, in the absence of a "thus saith the Lord".
amen. Praise the Lord for a voice of reason on this topic.
Powerfully delivered sound doctrine.
Women can do what ever they want to and be what ever they want to be! If God says don't eat of the forbidden 🌲, the woman will eat of it, nobody is going to tell her what not to do! She will also feed the forbidden fruit to almost any man and he will eat of it too! That just shows how much power women have over men! Women have the ability to laugh at God, lie to God, tell their husbands what to do and he will do it! Then she will change her mind and she will tell her husband to get rid of that woman and his son and he will ask God, 'what should I do?' and God tells Abram, 'do what the one who wears the pants in your family tells you to do!' and the rest is history, on account of two women who told two men what to do and they did it!!! Then there is the woman who was told not to look back and she had two daughters who both had bright 💡 💡 ideas!!! If God had told one woman way back in history, 'women can't be pastors, women can't be elders, women can't be priests', do you really think women would have obeyed God? The only way God could get a woman to obey Him would is by using reverse psychology but unfortunately for God He diesn't lie and He doesn't tempt women to do evil, it just comes naturally to them.
Wow. Spoken like a serial killer. You sure you're a Christian?
"will be a restoration to the order of things as they existed before the fall of Adam in Eden. "
That's exactly what this pastor is preaching : before the fall , Adam was the head and Eve submitted to his leadership . After the fall ,a war of the sexes began with Eve wanting to rule over Adam .That's why God so wisely said : "HE shall rule over thee".
Letting women run the show is repeating the fall over and over . Man is God's glory. Woman is man's glory . Man was made FIRST.
Even without the dozens of other scriptures I Timothy and Titus show us that God's intention was never to have women as Elders and Pastors. If the Comference decides to allow it, we may as well toss out all the Biblical truths that our church teaches.
And what does the bible say about wearing huge dangly earrings, Karen? Scripture can be invoked to suit, can't it?
The plain truth. The Bible's truth. I am and Elder in the church at my community and have my wife and other strong women supporting the spreading of the word of God as an SDA member. Let us follow and obey God's teachings. Man was chosen from the begining to lead. Woman came from man. Our women are willing to work alongside the males and also belief and know their role in the church. We love and respect our women. God bless our women.
chozenone100 Man was chosen to be the head of the FAMILY in marriage. You do not lead any other women.
@@xymonau2468 He wrote he is an elder in the Church. So he is also supposed to lead other women. Where is your reading ability?
@@cromwell531 Apparently it's a little ahead of yours. "Man was chosen from the beginning to lead". Only in marriage. "Woman came from man" - from his rib, as an equal, according to EGW. Only after sin entered was a woman's role in marriage to be lower than a man's, yet he was supposed to treat her the way Jesus treats the church - respecting individuals and listening to them. If I am single, what man is to boss me around? All of them? You're kidding, right? And you need to remember that a woman's vote in the church, which is not a dictatorship, is equal to a man's vote.
@@xymonau2468 - An elder leads a local church. But how can he lead a church consisting of men and *women* when he is not expected to lead women outside marriage as well?
And by the way: Woman's role was actually lower even before sin entered the world! Otherwise Pauls's statement in 1Tim 2: 13 ("For Adam was *formed first* , then Eve) would be quite meaningless, wouldn't it?
And finally: *Leadership* is neither bossing somebody around nor disrespecting him; and it is definitely not a form of dictatorship. Distorting words and their meaning is not the best version of rhetoric.
I'm a woman who believes that all were created by God with equal rights but not equal authority , to uphold doctrines of the world is to down cast God's doctrines let self be crucified and God be lifted up.let's not help the devil weaken what God instituted why God made it so, is for our good its one of the mysteries we will understand later just like why women have to give birth ..women be content with what God has given us
John S
Man holds headship in marriage and thus the wife is called to submit to him (1 Pet 3:1, 5; Eph 5:22). If this were not the case then there would be no way forward when there is irresolvable conflict or difference of opinion. Both men and women are equal heirs of salvation (Gal 3:26-29; 1 Pet 3:7) but their roles are different in marriage. This reality is part of the basis for the gender based restriction on the office of elder/bishop. Study the Scriptures friend. An elder is supposed to be one who rules his own house well because if he does not do that then how can he take care of God’s church? (1 Tim 3:5). The same verb (Gr: proïstēmi - to rule) is used to explain what the elders do in the church (See 1 Th 5:12 and 1 Tim 5:17; See also Hebrews 13:7, 17, 24 although a different verb is used there). The point is that this office is one of governance. It makes one responsible for others in an authoritative way and it is what the apostles and elders do. I would also note that the elder is supposed to be “apt to teach” (Gr: didaktikos) (1 Tim 3:2) but back in 1 Timothy 2 Paul appears to forbid authoritative teaching (Gr: didasko) from a woman over the man because of creation order (vs 13) and the fall (vs 14). Yet if we ordain a woman as an elder or pastor then how are we not allowing exactly what Paul forbade? Is it not a manifest sign that says we have negated creation order and its impact on roles?
John S
You say that “1 Peter 3:7 is not about salvation” but the verse is about “being heirs together of the grace of life” thus it really is about salvation. It is similar to Galatians 3:26-29 which tells us that all who have put on Christ are one in Him and “heirs according to the promise.”
Now you say that “count her as heir” means “equally ranked” and no one is saying that a woman is not an equal heir with a man. What was said is that in marriage there are different roles or functions for both genders. No one who is honest with what the Bible says can deny this. The husband is the head of the wife:
3 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that,
if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the
conversation of the wives;…5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands (1 Pet 3:1,5)
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. (Eph 5:22-24)
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor 11:3)
You have also written that I mentioned that “authority and headship belong to the male gender based on 2 verses” but that is a generic overstatement. I wrote about man’s headship “in marriage” and as the verses above reveal this is beyond dispute. Secondly, I wrote that there are also different roles in the church, and the office of elder is based upon having headship at home. And there were more than 2 verses that I gave to defend the premise that men and women have different roles “in marriage” and in the “church.” They were 1 Tim 3:1-5; 1 Timothy 2:11-15 and we could also mentioned 1 Cor 11:3-16; 1 Cor 14:34-37.
Moving on you claim that I “don’t see the abuse of authority being corrected by the Holy Spirit.” This is an assumption on your part. Since I deal with the Bible holistically I am well aware of the Biblical injunctions that husbands should not abuse their position as heads in the home (1 Pet 3:7; Col 3:19; Eph 5:25-29)
Next up you say that “1 Timothy 2:12 is not about church roles” but “its about marriage due to false doctrine and genealogy” etc,… You have attempted to go to 1 Timothy 1 to set the context for what is in chapter 2 but appear to have missed the more immediate literary context. Paul is speaking to Timothy and telling him what he needs to exhort the various categories of believers to do- that prayers be made for all, especially civil leaders (1 Tim 2:1,2), that men pray everywhere (1 Tim 2:8), that women dress modestly and adorn themselves with good works (1 Tim 2:9,10) and then comes the controversial verses:
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. (1 Tim 2:11-15)
Now you have a very creative explanation of this passage and it’s conjecture. Paul says nothing of the sort and your explanation really appears like a way to get around his injunction. You say that “Paul never forbade authoritative role for women” but that directly contradicts what he said.
Again moving on you claim that I have said that “this means women aren’t allowed to teach.” I suggest that you read what I ACTUALLY wrote instead of creating a strawman. I wrote that in “1 Timothy 2 Paul appears to forbid authoritative teaching from a women over the man because of creation order.” I did not say that a woman could never teach. If 1 Timothy 2 where the only passage on the matter that is what I would say but once again I deal with the Bible holistically.
You see Paul allowed a woman to pray or prophesy (which means to exhort in order to edify - 1 Cor 14:3,4) for the church but was concerned that she be properly attired when doing so. The woman was to wear a covering as a sign of respect to her head (the man). This sign of “power on her head” (vs 10) prevented anyone from assuming that she was attempting to usurp authority over the man. There is no problem with that type of teaching or the type that happens with the consent and in the presence of the husband, (as is the case with Aquila and Priscilla taking Apollos unto themselves to expound unto him the way of God more perfectly)
Finally let’s talk about 1 Timothy 3 which says what an elder "must be." While polygamy was likely in view here Paul was not “correcting polygamy” as you have claimed. He did not say that a polygamist needed to fix the error by divorcing the other wives or any such thing. But he did forbid such a man from being an elder. Now tell me if a polygamist is forbidden from being an elder because of multiple wives then how in the world can you argue that a woman is not also forbidden? Can a woman be the husband of one wife? Yes or no? And yes there is a comparison between the home and church inherent in this passage. Therefore I ask is a woman the head of a household according to God's Word? Or is that role reserved for the husband? Again what say you? Now I do not believe in hyper-literalism with this passage but people like to remove the gender specifics in the name of principle and this I cannot do because it violates the overall context of Scripture, specifically the Pauline references alluded to previously.
And you say that “the bible had deaconesses and elders consisted of females (1 Timoth 5: 1-2, 17).” Let’s examine those verses:
5 Rebuke not an elder (Gr: presbyetro - masculine), but intreat him
as a father; and the younger men as brethren; 2 The elder women (Gr: presbyteras - feminine) as mothers; the younger as sisters, with all purity….17 Let the elders (Gr: presbyteroi - masculine) that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine. (1 Tim 5:1,2, 17)
The mistake you are making here is understandable. You are conflating the office of elder (a position of leadership in the church) with being an elderly member (an older person) in the church. The early church had elderly people of both genders (presbytero - older man and presbytera - older woman) but it did not have any (presbyteras) women who ruled in the office of elder. Only male elders did that. Pay close attention to the genders in the verses you gave above and you will see this.
And finally I have not forgotten Joel 2:28, 29. I would urge you not to forget that this same Spirit inspired the written Word of God, including Paul’s writings and is never bestowed in a manner that contradicts it. And Phoebe was a servant of the church. I have no objection to that. What I object to is ordaining a women as an elder/bishop because such a course violates the Word of God.
I could' t lisen to all of would take up too much of my data. Thanks, I did listen to some.¥¥¥¥
John, you no one argues that all believers are heirs with Jesus. It absoluetly does NOT mean equally ranked. It doesnt follow that women should be ordained. It also doesnt follow that women are equal with men in AUTHORITY - in the home or in the church. Read Eph ch 5. Christ is head, then man, then woman. Head means leader.
No one ever argues against women in ministry. That is to be partaken of all believers. It doesnt follow that a woman heads the house over the man in ultimate decisions, nor does it follow that a woman leads the church either. Your conclusions are not based on Bible.
All of your examples are ministry examples, not ordination examples. These scripture selections do not bolster your position in any way.
Read AGAIN what Paul says about women teaching men. It is NOT about marriage. Nowhere in the passage is marriage brought up. The final verse is in answer to what came in 12, 13 and 14. What Paul is saying that, "in spite of the fact that this happend, you will be saved through the rearing of the family, if you continue in Faith, love and sanctity. He is addressing the woman only, and not in the context of marriage.
1 Tim 2:12...
"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness.
12I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.
13For Adam was formed first, then Eve;
14and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor...
Note vs 13 and 14 as to the reasons why. Clearly, that statment is a timeless one, having nothing to do with culture, but based on the headship of the man as God has instructed, from the Garden onward.
Powerful and sober!
What a wonderful, biblically based presentation... Ahhh, 1995... The good ole days.
No detailed class is needed, No woman was ordained by Jesus or Apostles. If today woman are ordained, it's Never by Jesus or His true apostles
Praise Ye the Lord!!
Pt.5 She was perfectly happy in her Eden home by her husband’s side; but, like restless modern Eves, she was flattered that there was a higher sphere than that which God had assigned her. But in attempting to climb higher than her original position, she fell far below it. This will most assuredly be the result with the Eves of the present generation if they neglect to cheerfully take up their daily life duties in accordance with God’s plan.TESTIMONY TREASURES, vol.1, Page 411
Amen! Keep preaching the Word of CHRIST!
“The subordination of Eve to Adam following the entrance of sin in no way reflected dishonor on her, but was intended to bring harmony and contribute to her fullest happiness. As the husband is the head of the home, so AS THE HUSBAND IS THE HEAD OF THE HOME, SO HE IS THE NATURAL LEADER OF A GROUP OF HOMES IN THE CHURCH CONGREGATION.” -SDA Bible Commentary vol. 7 p. 296
the strong conformist pressures of our modern society.
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that was a WONDERFUL description of what is going on. I feel for President Wilson. In the modern age of political correctedness and the need for positive public relations, he has to balance between not doing anything to deter anyone from coming into the 3 Angels Message and yet remaining firm on the standards of the Bible. This deep pressure to conform to modern society has manifested itself in SO MANY issues in the sda Church
The BIBLICAL view on women's ordination is that women should NOT be ordained. Christ ordained MEN. NOT women. Plain and simple.
Just a note: I do not agree that a woman should be ordained. I am a woman,and my comment by no means is that women have no value.In every church,women help with many tasks to help the ministry.That should be limited to that.Surely,this whole debate,must come from a type of woman.The one who confuses their rights in society,but mixing it in the church. Why is this so important? What is our purpose,in these last days? Woman Ordination? Lets get real, women should limit to what a woman should do in or for the church.There are so many roles a woman can fill to help,Having said this,Do you not see what are you doing? Why do women,(some), have to push this forever? This is a spiritual. organization,not like running to be promoted,in a job.Stay,where you are,behumble quiet, and let man do their ordination.It is a shame,that the Sda does this.I am a Sda believer,and yet would prefer to focus,on my family, keeping them safe,,It is all about control.What would Jesus say to you? Maybe,go home and sin no more.Meaning,this issue is a sin in my opinion,totally in the dark, woman should fullfil their beautiful role in life,especially in faith,Do not tribe to be in control.Rather be a humble servant.Your values are not any less,but wanting to be in control is not biblical.You can twist all verses,it your likeness,the question remains,Are you more righteous if you are in charge?I thing Not at all.
Amen! End of argument.
If you think Women's Ordination is heretical, how about Ordination in general!
Watch: The History of Ordination - By Dr. Darius Jankiewicz
Quote from EGW regarding the world church: "Christ gives power to the voice of the church. 'Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.' No such thing is countenanced as one man’s starting out upon his own individual responsibility and advocating what views he chooses, irrespective of the judgment of the church. God has bestowed the highest power under heaven upon His church. It is the voice of God in His united people in church capacity which is to be respected. 3T 450. The world church voted against women's ordination. That is the voice of God. Yet there are those who thumb their nose at God and ordain women anyway. God help them and the church.
Amen bro: it's not funny that they have no back up to relate to. Scripture has more to say against WO, than if anything pro it.
They have to grasp at straws to make a single point. You can tell it's not biblical because the explanations are too long. God is not the author of confusion but of Order!
Eg. A comment on this page says" Paul gave the Adam and Eve eg for a husband and wife." A wife isn't to lead or teach her husband... "Yet goes on to say that women can be ordained .
This is asinine. I've heard others say that the Holy Spirit is the female( she ) counterpart of the Godhead: and they are pro WO. To make it worst they cannot provide evidence with a simple text and prey upon ppl who seem vulnerable by insinuations of Greek translations.
God bless the church that it will not submit to satan
XxodiaX Friend, we must face the fact that the Great Shaking is coming to a climax. Soon the sheeple (tares) in the church will walk away, following the leaders who are intelligent but do not have the living Christ abiding in them. God help us.
Thanks for sharing.
Most people jump on this, but aren’t so zealous to promote that women are to be keepers of the home. Seems like people believe in the word of God as long as it doesn’t hurt their pockets
Noun 1. ordination - the status of being ordained to a sacred office
status, position - the relative position or standing of things or especially persons in a society; "he had the status of a minor"; "the novel attained the status of a classic"; "atheists do not enjoy a favorable position in American life" Also, how would any of that negate Jesus' own teaching in Matthew 23 v8-12?
Preach that Word!
AaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaMEN! Praise the Lord! Such a move will be tragic!
This topic is SO PLAIN in the Bible that this should NEVER be a controversy in ANY Church that believes in the Reformation concept of SOLA SCRIPTURA. But we as Adventists have the added testimony of the Spirit of Prophecy that ALL doctrine in the SDA Church should be based on the Bible ALONE. If ever there was a woman worthy of being ordained as a pastor, Ellen White was that woman... yet not only was she never ordained, she didn't occupy ANY church position- whether Elder, or president, etc.
Just tell me which man has authority over a single woman. Also, is ordination something magical apart from the recognition by a church of someone's calling? Thirdly, how dare Ellen White preach, teach, reprove and lead?
ISA 3:12 As for my people,children are their oppressors,and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths. Also as Adventists we claim that our doctrines come from the pattern in the sanctuary . I challenge anyone to find a single sanctuary based scripture that justifies women's ordination. I call my church sisters to humble themselves and repent from being modern day Eve's. Much Christian love Pat nz
Amen!
Mr Jayguess as Mr Know it All does not teach women to submit to their own husbands .He says it is unscriptural.
Lets not confuse a commissioned ministry with church ordination.
+Big E
Amen Brother.
And you males claim, God only used Deborah as an insult to the males in Israel? So, you think, God would have a law, and sin , and break His own Law? God, don't sin against His Laws, if He used A Woman, or speaks an analogy, where He gives an approving of A woman Servant of His, or A Woman Compass A man! It can't be against His Order, He Don't break His Own Rules!!!
Thank you God for the Bible!! the Plain word of your own...Men should be MEN and Women WOMEN, that's it. And this is no discrimination...
Everywhere you find the word Elder used it's referring to a (Pastor) or a Church Leader. There was 70 th Disciples some of which were women, in Acts 9:36 there's a female Disciple! I searched the Bible found five women , who have a church inside their homes.
God ordain women for a different role in ministry, this does not make them inferior, but empowers them to do a work that men can not do. If they feel that they cannot service in ministry unless they have the title of pastor or elder, then they must examine their true agenda and their interpretation of the scripture. Times have changed, but God's ordain plan for men and women in their different roles have not.
WOMEN ORDINATION A SATANIC MOVEMENT
Amen
I have heard several times that some of the 70 were women. Could you tell me the source for that?
Oh if the people of God open there eyes? Both Woman and Man can serve in Ministry because the Bible and Ellen White never speak againts it nor in favour woman Ordination in Jesus Christ in SDA Church.? All can serve whether Man or Woman or of any nations and languages.
10:43 It has everything to do with a specific culture: the Hebrew one. That is part of the Hebrew creation story.
Don't forget Deborah! She was God-appointed to be the spiritual and military leader of Israel during the period of the Judges.
Pt. 4 IMPORTANCE OF WOMEN'S WORK-->The sin of this age is disregard of God’s express commands. The power of influence in a wrong direction is very great. Eve had all that her wants required. There was nothing lacking to make her happy, but intemperate appetite desired the fruit of the only tree that God had withheld. She had no need of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, but she permitted her appetite and curiosity to control her reason.
Pt. We simply are going through our own wanderings in the wilderness due to our uncircumcised hearts and Laodicean stupor. We have Korah-like Rebellion in the camp, a modern-Eve like independence in our churches, and a WORLD-LOVING and World-CONFORMING leadership that are too cowardly to stand FIRMLY on a "thus saith the Lord".
This was the plain testimony, given 20 years ago, that was instrumental in settling the matter of individual SDA divisions ordaining women as ministers. The issue should have been settled but some do not understand what the Lord has plainly revealed and think it unjust while others are simply dissatisfied with it and think they know better. Thus the NAD started a propaganda campaign to change how Seventh-day Adventists interpret the Word of God with respect to women’s roles in the church. It has caused much confusion and division in the church and the issue is now upon us again. If I understand correctly the same exact matter (of individual SDA divisions having autonomy to ordain women as ministers) is going to be voted upon again at the GC session this year. Friends, the Scriptures and the testimonies have not changed and what was said in the presentation above should still decisively settle the issue. The only point I feel that needs minor clarification is there is only one man who has spiritual headship OF the church, His Name is Jesus! He is the sole Head OF the church but He is not the only head IN the church. The body of Christ is composed of various family units that have headship operative in them and, according to Scripture, it is only the man who is qualified to be the head of a home. That is one of the prerequisites for holding of the office of elder/bishop. The Scriptures, which are plain upon the rights and relations of men and women teach spiritual roles for male and female. These transcend culture and are based on the law of God as revealed in creation order (1 Tim 2:11-15; 1 Tim 3:1-5; 1 Cor 11:3-9; 1 Cor 14:34-37). A vote in favor of women being ordained as ministers goes against this plain revelation of God's Word.
So does ordination of unmarried men.
The Bible clearly states:
1 Timothy 2:11-15
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
1 Corinthians 14:34, 35
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
KJV
So was Ellen White disobeying God when she preached?
Should slaves obey their masters with fear? YES or NO?
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Here's another question: did either Paul or Jesus seek to eliminate slavery during their time? And another: did Paul admonish Onesimus to return to his master in the book Philemon? Thirdly, do we not have a Master (in a spiritual sense) as Christians? Then the answer is obvious... YES slaves ought to obey their Masters in the SAME WAY that wives obey their husbands- EXCEPT where obedience means violating God's commandments
Isaiah is speaking to woman.....He is speaking to Zion ( which is the church) as evidenced in Jeremiah 6:2 ( a comely and delicate woman). This is the same woman found in Revelation 12, so in essence, Isaiah is speaking to The church and not a literal woman
That's my whole issue with this man's presentation. Why refrain from dedicating/setting someone apart for service based on gender? For a church who claims to hold to a doctrine of the priesthood of all believers, it doesn't make sense. Also, this church also claims that a full restoration of the kingdom of God will be a restoration to the order of things as they existed before the fall of Adam in Eden. My view is that the followers of Christ are to bring about the kingdom of God now.
In Psm.68:11-13 this scriptures is speaking about a woman announcing God's words. The King James Version omitted the part of the women. But in verse# 12,13 God uses (She&Her ) this is said to be prophesy, I agree, she's a widow , poor , lacking in pots, has enemies that are considered Kings ie ( preachers) He promises Her that blessings are coming to Her.
This was a "dedication for service". Not a placing of persons in "order" above or below other persons. This is what "ordination" means. It is contrary to the teachings if Jesus in Matthew 23. Ordination came from the Roman military custom of changing the political status of an officer every time he was given a promotion. We don't have that kind of an authority system in Christianity. We are all brothers and equal according to the teachings of Jesus. We have only one superior - Jesus.
friend I agree with your conclusion but not your adjectives and other labels. No matter the mud thrown at us, let us not be throwers.
The scriptures says. I am the Lord and I change not.. so why are people fighting what the Lord said?? She shall be saved in child bearing. Not preaching.
Will a barren woman be unsaved, then?
я там была тогда!)
I do not agree on women's ordination.
Paul literally writes a letter to a female elder... 2 john 1 . God ordained a woman to lead and judge nations and armies. the first preacher evangelist was a woman. woman is made in Gods image and nowhere in the bible does it say that God told eve about the apple God only told Adam... so when eve bit the apple nothing happened sin only fell when Adam did, but God says to Satan, you used a woman to create sin and now i will use a woman to create salvation ( i will put enmity between Satan and the woman and between your offspring and hers,he will crush your head and you will strike his heal).husbands have no authority over their wives and neither do the wives have authority over their husbands both submit to each other. eph 5 21 husbands submit to wives and wives submit to husbands out of reverence for the lord. the man is the head of woman as Christ is head of the church in this way man should give himself up for his wife as Christ gave himself up for the church. timothy 1 2 is Paul talking about A woman (a specific pagan woman from a religion of female domination and prostitution ) who bullied over A man (her husband) and she was disturbing the church and twice in the bible is she talked about and refused to teach in the church and told to be submissive to god. theirs so may more examples of women leading and being ordained by god.
He failed to define the term "Ordination"...
16:16 submission to the Word of God, not reinterpretation. Anything against what and how the early Christians believed and taught is a reinterpretation. The early Christians were closer and even contemporaries of the Apostles that were taught by our Lord, any deviation from early Christian teaching and beliefs were and is heresy.
Standing in a pulpit and preaching from the Word of God does NOT make you an ordained pastor!
For all these mens, di you know Jesus Christ?
God also allowed Queens to rule over their Kingdom, Queen Esther wrote decrees for her people, 11Chron.9:12 Queen of Sheba ruled over her kingdom, in Acts 8:26 Queen Candace ruled over her Kingdom,In Luke 11:31 God uses A Queen to Judge Men in this Generation!
Then in Isaiah 40:9,10 same thing again, King James omits , O Thou Woman, that bring good tidings to Zion! He tell's her to lift up her voice, lift it up, be not afraid! Then say to the cities! Why else would these words be omitted!
And 2John was referring to a Lady as the Elder! And to all you males who want to say, John is calling the church the Lady, then turn the page, and explain to me, why He's not calling that church, the Lady! You need to make sure your right, before you think to correct someone else !!
@Darlene Garza - In this respect you may be right: The addressed lady is not the church but a *real woman* . She is called a 'kyria'. That's the female form of 'kyrios' (lord). And as 'lady' never was a clerical designation she could have been a landowner or something else of this type with servants at her disposal.
But the *only elder* mentioned in the letter is the author and sender himself: *John* the apostle. Hence there is no "elderess" in 2John - it's only in your imagination.
So don't try to read your feminist ideology into the text!
It all started with Lilith
No a husband isn't the natural leader of a church, it's who God called to lead that church, just because He 's a husband doesn't make Him a leader over women that's not His wife, not every male would be called into ministry! And in Acts 9:36 a female Disciple, in Rom.16:7 was Junia an Apostle who was put in prison with Paul!And there were five women who started churches, within their homes, there's never a mention of a male preacher, so they were the pastors!
In 1Tim.5:1,2 is speaking about Elders, and they are both MALES&FEMALES ! And if you read though #17-19 they can preach, teach and pastor. Let the Elders rule well, that's in authority role,be worthy of double honor, especially they who labour in the Word& Doctrine.And they are to be paid! And in the commentary, they said this isn't the same as the other Elder. And it means a older saint. But no it doesn't ! In Titus 2:1-3 shows that a older saint is refer to as AGED SAINTS!
And there Overseer never refers to a male preacher, speaks directly to the woman concerning church matters. In 1Corin.7: 34,35 Paul is speaking to single women ,suggesting they remain single, in order to attend unto The Lord ! This shows you Paul was using women in ministry. Males have taken 1Corin . 14:34,35& 1Tim.2:11-13 both were referring to Husband & Wife's relationship! And wife's are under the obedience of their own husband.
Philip4:2,3Acts17:34,Rom.16:12,Philimon Apphia started a church, no male with her!Acts 18:34 Damaris started a church, no male with her!111John the Elect Lady was a Elder, no male with her!In 1Corin.7:34,35 Paul speaking to women in Ministry!Rom.16:1 Phebe started a church, no male with her!
In 11Kings22:14 Huldah taught five Priests, the law of God, they were ordered to go to Her! In 1Corin.9:5 Women also getting paid in ministry!Read Gen.1:27 is what God said!In Luke 8:3 Joanna& Susana worked in ministry&Paul! In Luke 12:45 menservants & maidservant were beaten for the Gospel sake!
And the Woman in Revelation 12, is Israel, she brought forth the man-child who was caught up to His Throne! That's Jesus! And Zion isn't the church, Zion is a nation of People, the church is the Body of Christ! In ICorin.12:12-19!!
The commentary in Isaiah 40:9,10 shows that the prophet Isaiah is speaking to a preacher , so is this preacher a female! Neither Zion nor Jerusalem is a preacher!
And God referred to nations as women, but Israel, has never been a servant of God! The Nation of Israel hasn't served God! A Believer can Be called Israel, and we are married to Christ ! God, can't refer this to the unsaved, only saved ones! And again , God wouldn't use a analogy of something, that you males are claiming that is against His laws! In Jeremiah 31:22& Ish.54:1-17 is both an analogy of God saying a women will be His Servant and She will lead a man!!! God never speaks, some thing, He
The church isn't called A woman, the church is called the body, and the complete body, is called the Bride of Christ! They never referred to a single church as a lady or woman! Try, effecting the truth!