the primary reason for the french navy being kinda crap is because of the french revolution itself. Most of their experienced officers were all... well... royalists. When the revolution happened they basically removed all of the well established officers and training regimes. Then they put in new officers which were definitely eager but not experienced or qualified, and for the most part it showed. It wasn't as bad in the napoleonic wars because they had gained a little experience by then, but even looking at trafalgar you can see how very one sided it was in terms of coordination and organisation.
The British basically had it together from the get-go going in. They did not care what family you were from, if you could not pass their tests you had no place in the officer corps in the navy. Unlike the army where you could buy commisions. That is not to suggest that status meant nothing, obviously you had to start in a decent position to be considered as an officer (meaning most seamen were not going anywhere) but just look at Horatio Nelson and his rise to fame. You did not need to be high nobility to rise up the ranks. It was much more of a meritocracy. Although you did have to be educated and be able to read etc.
I can't recall who said that but basically "if the French knew how to sail like they build ships, they would be masters of the oceans". The British navy's best ships were all either captured from the French or copied from them. Too bad the French navy officers sucked, for the exact reason you wrote ):
I find this whole subject fascinating. My brief understanding of it from the depths of my vague knowledge was that french ships were better armed and better sailors (sailing profile not actual sailors), but had weaker hulls. After doing some research on it I was actually quite chuffed with how close I was. French ships did *in theory* have better sailing profiles. The problem was that they lost this advantage in rough weather. Which is mainly due to their hull. You see, the actual framing of the ship was done to a degree that was GREAT on paper. You could nail down ships rather quickly. (which is how the french navy was so big in 1805 despite being hammered by the royal navy for so long. Also the ships on average were larger than the british ships with exception to the very few 1st and 2nd rates at trafalgar). The issue with this construction method was that it wasn't good in the long term. Whether it was due to poor maintenance, overbearing (which I'll get back to) or poor construction, these ships started to deform quite badly with time. By that I mean the actual frame would slowly be collapsing in on itself. As mentioned, in short terms (a couple years) you wouldn't notice it but after a very long while it would start affecting the ship. A decade or so. I won't talk about crew comfort because I think that's irrelevant (in case you do care, british sailors said french ships were very crampt), but one advantage/disadvantage french ships had were their guns. French guns were a lot better for quite a long while. I don't mean in terms of weight of firepower, but literally they just performed better. The issue was however, they were just too big. A french corvette for example could be armed with an 18 pounder which would give it the capacity to fight a frigate in theory. Which is great! The problem is though, the ships hull and frames were not really capable of supporting the weight. Which is why you'll see ships like L'Unite get downgunned when it entered british service as HMS Surprise. Then lastly as I already mentioned, british ships tended to have better hulls. Not just in construction method but also in actual protection. Because britain had the luxury of an empire and being able to take their time, they were able to make ships out of seasoned english oak (essentially it's very sturdy and resilient) while also being able to import specific wood types for specific parts of the ship from the colonies. The french however semi rushed their ships. Whether through inexperience or necessity, they chose to use softer wood (green wood). Which if you ever went into the woods as a kid and tried to snap sticks like every kid did, you'll know that fresh sticks wood bend constantly whereas ones on the ground would snap quickly. The best sticks were the ones you couldn't bend or snap. Essentially french ships were made out of a softer wood whereas the british ships were made out of very well treated wood. MASSIVE essay from me, up to you how much of it you wanna read but I recommend you read up on it yourself. Or anyone else that decides to read this essay. Take care lmao
The French ship Franklin was indeed named after Benjamin Franklin. She was captured in 1798 after being heavily damaged in the Battle of the Nile and served with the Royal Navy as HMS Canopus until 1887
I used to absolutely love holdfast naval battles, I always tried to become the captain and in a Scottish accent commanded the larger ships, found out some nice tactics too and won quite a lot of times
HMS Victory is the oldest commissioned but not afloat and is still the flagship for the first sea lord, every ship that passes it in port salutes Victory as it passes 🔱
I would say that nearly every experienced captain or fleet of ships would want to keep the weather gage on the enemy. This means they would prefer to be upwind of the enemy, allowing them to turn with the wind faster to allow them to fire both broadsides at the enemy while the enemy either is forced to tack which means to steer directly into the wind and turn (which is slow and lacks maneuverability) or to kite, which means to swing back and forth with the wind but you are in a disadvantageous position as the enemy is now on your stern. Pretty fun to watch Napoleon TW again.
Intresting that shannon was sailing with the americans especially after the brutal taking of uss chesapeake. Uss president probably also has ptsd since after being captured by the british After the war the british also built another hms president just to annoy the yanks.
Most of the reason why the British navy appears better than the French in the Napoleonic wars is that we focused on faster gunnery than the French, having a superior fire rate was very important. Additionally, Villeneuve followed Napoleons often poor quality or often changed orders, our Admirals had more autonomy but also just flat out decided their ideas were better when in the moment- it was that lake of flexibility that generally allowed Nelson and other admirals to get the French in a position they could win. But no, the French navy wasn't crap and their ships were great, the sailors brave and the captains good - just poor high command and the wrong focus (on sailing instead of fast gunnery)
Well the British because of their position were able to prioritise their navy in resources. The French on the other hand had to focus on their army. The British army, while of very good quality, wasn't as large in size to the French. And the navy tended to absorb the more talented officers. The French army, had to be large to fight against other continental armies and it tended to absorb most of the talented officers, while the navy was by necessity of secondary importance. So the fact that the French were even able to give the British a good run for their money in most naval battles is pretty impressive. Then of course, you have the Spanish, which have both a bad army and a bad navy.
Holdfast naval is still incredibly fun. Probably the best game out there for large multiplayer ship battles. Would recommend if you can get enough people into a game. Custom servers can take a lot more people too. I was in an amazing 200player battle a few months ago. It was great.
Love the naval battles! Scenario isn't entirely improbable. The U.S. actually fought a limited naval war with Revolutionary France in 1798 called the Quasi War, and anti-French sentiment in the country was considerable at the time. The Federalist party was generally pro-British, so a U.S. and British alliance against the French might not have been as unlikely as you might think. Great video!
Apollo, you mentioned that the French would use the wind to retreat, and the British would use the wind to get into a fight faster. I put it to you that actually, both sides would try to get the opposing fleet down wind of their own fleet (which it looks like that's what is happening in this video). The reason they would try to get the other fleet down wind is because if your fleet is upwind of your enemy then you can dictate when and where to engage them, and if you start taking irreplaceable losses then you can break contact, and they would have a much harder time catching up.
I recommend you try out windward, its a roblox game similar to napoleonic wars/campaigns, but with ships. it has very advance multiplayer sailing mechanics, and is overall a great game i think you would like!
The only thing I would add to your micro analysis is raking fire. You do more damage firing down the length of a ship than hitting it's broadside, plus they can't shoot back.
I love naval battles. Very nice to see there's a new mod for it in NTW. I'm interested to test out if NTW3 gives you more than 20 units like it does in the land battles.
Apollo have you ever tried Naval action? If you ever wanna get into it the seasonal wipe should be soon with a change of content coming with it in the update its the best time to get into it once this happens.
@@PixelatedApollo1 Well it would have wiped 2 months ago but its getting delayed with the developers being in ukraine last week they anounced it is being finalized also they anounced this will be the last seasonal wipe so you wont loose your stuff. with this i can see a ton of people coming back to the game so there should be alot of content happening when the wipe hits.
The USA and the french wouldn't really have been friends at this time anymore because the USA didn't repay the loans they got during the revolution, which led to France becoming pretty poor and that /among other things) led to the french revolution. After which they still didn't get their money. (if I remember correctly)
. 47:30 "Canon balls aren't even the scariest thing." Well, I don't think anyone thought the ball was horrifying. If you got hit by the ball, your pain is over, unless it's arms or legs. But when the ball ripped through a ship, or even on the battlefield. As a ball tore through troops... Same with bombs today, the explosion isn't the scary part, its all the shrapnel.
Hello, PA. I always play a pirated NTW, is this mod only works in official NTW from steam? I'm planning to play the mod (actually playing pc game in general, again) so do you have any suggestions of where to download the game and the mod? Cheers!
I thought the USS Constitution participated in the Gulf War? I heard her guns demolished a whole unit of Iraqi infantry and tanks. T-72’s at that. She is a beast still till this day. Amazingly needed no upgrades just wreaked every thing.
That wasn't so much 'crossing the T' as 'VbhĝŢrr4ĝkbĵ&∫ the ÆÐЧJĴµVFXĈ3' ....I pity the scribe that had to draw the after action report and minute by minute map. It'd look like a giant chook scratch....actually.. scratch that hah! .....more like an all-in battle-royale 100 rooster brawl lol
Bro, there was no competing philosophy on which was better. If you had the weather gage, you had the weather gage. French didn’t sail one way and British the other. They both wanted to be upwind. Period.
No, it's actually not that simple, you can absolutely maneuver your ship to have the weather gauge or be on the lee gauge. Not in every scenario obviously but it can be and was a conscious decision on the part of the captains. There are various sources that state the French preferred the Lee, with their inferior seamanship taking the initiative was not always the best option. Having the weather-gauge leaves you only one option, go forward. If you are inferior in number or skill this can easily be a bad move.
You should really play naval action if you like this battle. I have been playing Naval action for a long time, its not huge but we have clan members to defend port on large scale most on 1 st rate ship. You should really try it
Those are actually pretty small ships for naval warfare usually they would have ships with like 5-6 decks and the reason why the French are losing not only because they don't have the best leaders but is because its not they're fighting style they would usually shoot at long range
5-6 decker did not exist. Even first-rates usually only had 3 Gun Decks and an elevated deck at the rear. The only ship to have 4 was the Spanish Giant Santissima Trinidad, the largest ship in the age of sail
the primary reason for the french navy being kinda crap is because of the french revolution itself. Most of their experienced officers were all... well... royalists. When the revolution happened they basically removed all of the well established officers and training regimes. Then they put in new officers which were definitely eager but not experienced or qualified, and for the most part it showed. It wasn't as bad in the napoleonic wars because they had gained a little experience by then, but even looking at trafalgar you can see how very one sided it was in terms of coordination and organisation.
Add all these factors when fighting against the Royal Navy and it's a recipe for disaster indeed.
The British basically had it together from the get-go going in. They did not care what family you were from, if you could not pass their tests you had no place in the officer corps in the navy. Unlike the army where you could buy commisions. That is not to suggest that status meant nothing, obviously you had to start in a decent position to be considered as an officer (meaning most seamen were not going anywhere) but just look at Horatio Nelson and his rise to fame. You did not need to be high nobility to rise up the ranks. It was much more of a meritocracy. Although you did have to be educated and be able to read etc.
I can't recall who said that but basically "if the French knew how to sail like they build ships, they would be masters of the oceans". The British navy's best ships were all either captured from the French or copied from them. Too bad the French navy officers sucked, for the exact reason you wrote ):
I find this whole subject fascinating. My brief understanding of it from the depths of my vague knowledge was that french ships were better armed and better sailors (sailing profile not actual sailors), but had weaker hulls.
After doing some research on it I was actually quite chuffed with how close I was. French ships did *in theory* have better sailing profiles. The problem was that they lost this advantage in rough weather. Which is mainly due to their hull. You see, the actual framing of the ship was done to a degree that was GREAT on paper. You could nail down ships rather quickly.
(which is how the french navy was so big in 1805 despite being hammered by the royal navy for so long. Also the ships on average were larger than the british ships with exception to the very few 1st and 2nd rates at trafalgar).
The issue with this construction method was that it wasn't good in the long term. Whether it was due to poor maintenance, overbearing (which I'll get back to) or poor construction, these ships started to deform quite badly with time. By that I mean the actual frame would slowly be collapsing in on itself. As mentioned, in short terms (a couple years) you wouldn't notice it but after a very long while it would start affecting the ship. A decade or so.
I won't talk about crew comfort because I think that's irrelevant (in case you do care, british sailors said french ships were very crampt), but one advantage/disadvantage french ships had were their guns. French guns were a lot better for quite a long while. I don't mean in terms of weight of firepower, but literally they just performed better. The issue was however, they were just too big. A french corvette for example could be armed with an 18 pounder which would give it the capacity to fight a frigate in theory. Which is great! The problem is though, the ships hull and frames were not really capable of supporting the weight. Which is why you'll see ships like L'Unite get downgunned when it entered british service as HMS Surprise.
Then lastly as I already mentioned, british ships tended to have better hulls. Not just in construction method but also in actual protection. Because britain had the luxury of an empire and being able to take their time, they were able to make ships out of seasoned english oak (essentially it's very sturdy and resilient) while also being able to import specific wood types for specific parts of the ship from the colonies. The french however semi rushed their ships. Whether through inexperience or necessity, they chose to use softer wood (green wood). Which if you ever went into the woods as a kid and tried to snap sticks like every kid did, you'll know that fresh sticks wood bend constantly whereas ones on the ground would snap quickly. The best sticks were the ones you couldn't bend or snap. Essentially french ships were made out of a softer wood whereas the british ships were made out of very well treated wood.
MASSIVE essay from me, up to you how much of it you wanna read but I recommend you read up on it yourself. Or anyone else that decides to read this essay. Take care lmao
True
The French ship Franklin was indeed named after Benjamin Franklin. She was captured in 1798 after being heavily damaged in the Battle of the Nile and served with the Royal Navy as HMS Canopus until 1887
Until 1887??? WOW!
I used to absolutely love holdfast naval battles, I always tried to become the captain and in a Scottish accent commanded the larger ships, found out some nice tactics too and won quite a lot of times
HMS Victory is the oldest commissioned but not afloat and is still the flagship for the first sea lord, every ship that passes it in port salutes Victory as it passes 🔱
Can you explain what a Sea Lord is?
@@_-JonDoe-_ Basically the guy in overall charge of the Navy, answering to the civilian government as part of the cabinet.
Though it dosen't float
@@_-JonDoe-_ The chief of the naval staff.
@@mufinsp0 no, that’s why I said it’s not afloat however it’s still in commission and has been for 246 years.
7:10 sailor casually use the force to grab his canon ram out of the sea
😂🤣
Love seeing the occasional naval battle. So many cannons!
No way ! Was just looking for old NTW3 videos. I missed naval battles too, I'm so hyped to see more fresh Napoleonic content soon !
I visited the HMS Victory some Years ago in Portsmouth.
Such an Awesome Ship!
I would say that nearly every experienced captain or fleet of ships would want to keep the weather gage on the enemy. This means they would prefer to be upwind of the enemy, allowing them to turn with the wind faster to allow them to fire both broadsides at the enemy while the enemy either is forced to tack which means to steer directly into the wind and turn (which is slow and lacks maneuverability) or to kite, which means to swing back and forth with the wind but you are in a disadvantageous position as the enemy is now on your stern. Pretty fun to watch Napoleon TW again.
according to mahan, french preferred to stay downwind so they force enemy fleet to come at them
Love every battle of Napoleon. And I love the naval aspect too. Keep them coming my friend. I missed this.
When all the ships clumped up, my anxiety went through the roof. I was expecting a powder magazine detonation at any moment.
Intresting that shannon was sailing with the americans especially after the brutal taking of uss chesapeake.
Uss president probably also has ptsd since after being captured by the british
After the war the british also built another hms president just to annoy the yanks.
I beg you for more ntw3, also you used to do ntw3 naval battles with the campaign patch
at 19:41 the HMS Swiftsure was trying to be Admiral Nelson 😂
Most of the reason why the British navy appears better than the French in the Napoleonic wars is that we focused on faster gunnery than the French, having a superior fire rate was very important. Additionally, Villeneuve followed Napoleons often poor quality or often changed orders, our Admirals had more autonomy but also just flat out decided their ideas were better when in the moment- it was that lake of flexibility that generally allowed Nelson and other admirals to get the French in a position they could win. But no, the French navy wasn't crap and their ships were great, the sailors brave and the captains good - just poor high command and the wrong focus (on sailing instead of fast gunnery)
Well the British because of their position were able to prioritise their navy in resources. The French on the other hand had to focus on their army.
The British army, while of very good quality, wasn't as large in size to the French. And the navy tended to absorb the more talented officers.
The French army, had to be large to fight against other continental armies and it tended to absorb most of the talented officers, while the navy was by necessity of secondary importance.
So the fact that the French were even able to give the British a good run for their money in most naval battles is pretty impressive.
Then of course, you have the Spanish, which have both a bad army and a bad navy.
This time I’m on time
Same
Keep bringing joy in this world Apollo
Holdfast naval is still incredibly fun. Probably the best game out there for large multiplayer ship battles. Would recommend if you can get enough people into a game. Custom servers can take a lot more people too. I was in an amazing 200player battle a few months ago. It was great.
Love the naval battles! Scenario isn't entirely improbable. The U.S. actually fought a limited naval war with Revolutionary France in 1798 called the Quasi War, and anti-French sentiment in the country was considerable at the time. The Federalist party was generally pro-British, so a U.S. and British alliance against the French might not have been as unlikely as you might think. Great video!
Thank you amigo! Always fun watching your vids, and especially a Naval battle!
i always watch your older naval battles because you stopped making NWT naval content, but I am happy to see you didn't forget them
I did laugh at "we won't see the US get into the battle until the end"
sounds like a couple of world wars as well. 🤣😂
Damn, I was just rewatching all the old naval battle videos you made, w timing fr
That was epic great Naval combat, keep continue for naval battles.
with his nice slow southern accent and his perfect elocution, this guy made more to teach me english that 6 years in collège.. 😋
37:13 yeah no shit they need to start sinking some ships to win 😂. Just kidding haha. Love ur empire/napoleon vids!
Please do more of this, I’ve watched it twice now. I miss good naval combat.
I absolutely love these type battles
The constitution is manned by active duty sailors as well.
That would be cool to see some air battles from this era.
Tell me you are stupid without telling me you are stupid
Damn just crossed the T right off the bat. Great tactics.
The classic "ship of the line fireing at a frigate" as a first move by the spanish... xD
Apollo, you mentioned that the French would use the wind to retreat, and the British would use the wind to get into a fight faster. I put it to you that actually, both sides would try to get the opposing fleet down wind of their own fleet (which it looks like that's what is happening in this video). The reason they would try to get the other fleet down wind is because if your fleet is upwind of your enemy then you can dictate when and where to engage them, and if you start taking irreplaceable losses then you can break contact, and they would have a much harder time catching up.
I like how you are not distracted by all these diddy issues
I recommend you try out windward, its a roblox game similar to napoleonic wars/campaigns, but with ships. it has very advance multiplayer sailing mechanics, and is overall a great game i think you would like!
yeeeessss naval battles are baaaack
There needs to be a naval battle event one of these days man I just got holdfast.
I really enjoyed this Apollo
YES I HAVE BEEN WATCHING AND WAITING FOR MORE NTW3
The only thing I would add to your micro analysis is raking fire. You do more damage firing down the length of a ship than hitting it's broadside, plus they can't shoot back.
Its been so long since a ship battle thank you
I made a couple of the USS Constitution from plastic model kits when I was younger.
There nothing but land battles it’s nice to see something new like a sea battle
Yhe french navy stays under the wind in order to aim high . If your ship is banking, it's easier for the high side to aim and shoot to the sails .
I love naval battles. Very nice to see there's a new mod for it in NTW. I'm interested to test out if NTW3 gives you more than 20 units like it does in the land battles.
what the british are doing doing head on into the line of french ships in between is a tactic used in Trafalgar wich lead to victory
can't wait to see such battles in the carlist wars mod
We need more age of sail games. I adored blackwake before it went dead
Love it what to see more navy battles
Apollo have you ever tried Naval action? If you ever wanna get into it the seasonal wipe should be soon with a change of content coming with it in the update its the best time to get into it once this happens.
@@Joppie381 I played it in the past. It’s was fun, when is the wipe?
@@PixelatedApollo1 Well it would have wiped 2 months ago but its getting delayed with the developers being in ukraine last week they anounced it is being finalized also they anounced this will be the last seasonal wipe so you wont loose your stuff. with this i can see a ton of people coming back to the game so there should be alot of content happening when the wipe hits.
Yah I wanna see more Naval Battles that was intense.
Our ship needs a strong captain, you're the solution.
What's your ship?
The USS Constitution.
There is no way any Navy in the age of sail would go into battle against the wind on purpose... it puts you at a ridiculous disadvantage.
Love this guy
The USA and the french wouldn't really have been friends at this time anymore because the USA didn't repay the loans they got during the revolution, which led to France becoming pretty poor and that /among other things) led to the french revolution. After which they still didn't get their money. (if I remember correctly)
Good thumbnail 👌
Never write the royal navy off!
Can't believe their porting this game for phones so cool
Hey question, is this the definitive edition right? If it is, how do you add mods to it?
"F" for the Old Wagon.
Interesting mod, thanks for sharing.
. 47:30 "Canon balls aren't even the scariest thing." Well, I don't think anyone thought the ball was horrifying. If you got hit by the ball, your pain is over, unless it's arms or legs. But when the ball ripped through a ship, or even on the battlefield. As a ball tore through troops... Same with bombs today, the explosion isn't the scary part, its all the shrapnel.
You don't call a group of ships armies, it's either a Flotilla or a fleet.. the US however was a squadron... sorry.. I am one of those people 😁
Don't apologize, people need to come correct.
48:33 What is going on with the Spanish flag?
Bad luck for the crashes we need more sea battles !!!
but what about the quasi war, the American frigates gave the French a bloody nose in the Atlantic and Caribbean
We need more ETW
How or where do I join the discord?
Pls do NTW3 vids, I've quite literally watched all 30-40+ videos you've made and I need more
we need more naval battles
F for the old wagon
we need more videos of this
If you spent a year in france you got syphillis in the 18th and 19th century.
Hello, PA.
I always play a pirated NTW, is this mod only works in official NTW from steam? I'm planning to play the mod (actually playing pc game in general, again) so do you have any suggestions of where to download the game and the mod? Cheers!
Its the oldest ship in the world that has sunk another ship in battle.
I think it would be cool if you go back to Ultimate General Age of Sail and play a match.
Ave Dominus Nox!!!
I live very close to the river shannon. Best river in Ireland. 🇮🇪
I thought the USS Constitution participated in the Gulf War? I heard her guns demolished a whole unit of Iraqi infantry and tanks. T-72’s at that. She is a beast still till this day. Amazingly needed no upgrades just wreaked every thing.
Huh
You mean the Iowa class battleships ships like Uss New Jersy
@@finn5134 it’s a joke brother. Yeah this bad boy never made it to Iraq. Cheers my friend.
The USA has the worst name for ships.. no imagination 😂
how to download mod?
i missed navel battels so much do more please
Apollo pleaseee do more ntw3 its the best fr
AMERICA !!! F**K YEAH!!!
Have you heard of Naval Action ?
Hi appolo there is game in making called Ahoy whitch looks great if they can pull it of
not sure the purpose on bringing frigates lmao
Three armies of the Royal Navy?
🙄
Black wake is way better then holdfast for first person naval 😊
forest in Indiana solely for repairing Uss constitution
That wasn't so much 'crossing the T' as 'VbhĝŢrr4ĝkbĵ&∫ the ÆÐЧJĴµVFXĈ3' ....I pity the scribe that had to draw the after action report and minute by minute map. It'd look like a giant chook scratch....actually.. scratch that hah! .....more like an all-in battle-royale 100 rooster brawl lol
Holding positions is for the weak. Ram fest & board Black flag style. 😎
Do battles with the Dutch ships
Apollo you should try a game called naval action
Now do Battlefleet Gothic Armada 2
u should get back into naval action the free to play server is very fun to play on atm loads of content
Bro, there was no competing philosophy on which was better. If you had the weather gage, you had the weather gage. French didn’t sail one way and British the other. They both wanted to be upwind. Period.
No, it's actually not that simple, you can absolutely maneuver your ship to have the weather gauge or be on the lee gauge. Not in every scenario obviously but it can be and was a conscious decision on the part of the captains. There are various sources that state the French preferred the Lee, with their inferior seamanship taking the initiative was not always the best option. Having the weather-gauge leaves you only one option, go forward. If you are inferior in number or skill this can easily be a bad move.
You should really play naval action if you like this battle. I have been playing Naval action for a long time, its not huge but we have clan members to defend port on large scale most on 1 st rate ship. You should really try it
I used to play it
Those are actually pretty small ships for naval warfare usually they would have ships with like 5-6 decks and the reason why the French are losing not only because they don't have the best leaders but is because its not they're fighting style they would usually shoot at long range
5-6 decker did not exist. Even first-rates usually only had 3 Gun Decks and an elevated deck at the rear. The only ship to have 4 was the Spanish Giant Santissima Trinidad, the largest ship in the age of sail
The US ships should not have forecastles or poop decks as they do here.