Excellent! Some years ago at Truro Cathedral we had two instruments from the Early English Organ Project in residence, and a reconstructed Tridentine Mass took place - I particularly remember the challenge of finding enough copes for the choir! If only we'd had the ability to stream in those days...
Thanks for your lovely message! Wow, that sounds really fascinating - it was a big challenge to get enough copes for this service too. Did you know if there were any photos of the Truro service?
Thanks for bringing us this liturgical reconstruction, sung and presented so well.A first,l think,on UA-cam and much appreciated by those of us who like early music.l look forward to more, bringing the sight and sound of glorious early music.God bless
This is goergous and very prayerful. I'm so glad I saw it on Reddit. I had assumed that everyone vested in a cope was an ordained minister or licensed lay reader, but I see this is not the case? I read in Wikipedia that copes could be used by lay choristers in the Sarum rite but I thought that was abolished and the cope reserved to ministers during the Reformation.
Thank you for tuning in. I am glad you enjoyed it. Thank you for your comments too!! Well, we know the gentlemen of the chapel royal (lay or ordained) wore copes: www.bl.uk/collection-items/drawings-of-the-funeral-procession-of-elizabeth-i We were suggesting that in a very conservative or even recusant Oxford college which would have many copes left over from Sarum they may well have continued using them as they always had done before.
I recall reading that one of the reasons for producing a Latin version of the Book of Common Prayer was the hope of exporting the Reformation to Venice, where the Doge was in a nasty dispute with the Pope over the appointment of bishops (the Pope backed down and so Venice remained Catholic).
Simply wonderful! And I wonder if there might be a recording of the Mass according to the First Prayer Book as it was celebrated in 1549, when most of the clergy still held to the old customs. I think it was done once as part of the liturgy research project led by Professor John Harper (Bangor University) with Dr Sally Harper (Bangor University), but there was no recording of it.
A suggestion - would it be possible to add a few more captions at certain points so you could download the Order of Service and know where in the service you are? I fully realise captioning all of this would be a bit of a nightmare 😁, so if I could have a few more signposts as to where we are in the service, I could definitely keep up. A fantastic first effort! Really looking forward to seeing more of these come to life.
Hi! Thank you for the feedback, useful know going forwards. Obviously, we can’t edit the video now it’s up, but we will try and put some time-stamps in if we get a moment!
Forgive me, but why is everyone wearing a cope of a different colour? It looks really strange. Please don’t misunderstand me, I’m not criticising because it’s all very beautiful but surely everyone would wear the same colour cope for whichever feast is being celebrated on that day? Black for the dead, red for martyrs or the Holy Ghost etc.. is there a reason why (genuine question)?
@@nintendonut100 Gosh, as an English Catholic in charge of the liturgical ceremonies in one of the most prominent traditional Catholic Churches in London for over 30 years I have never heard that before! I’m not doubting you, just amazed that this fact had never been apparent to me! That said, I have no experience of High Anglicanism so maybe that’s the reason I’ve never come across it?
@@albertsmyth9616 oh, this was the case in the Medieval Catholic Church in England as well. Documentation indicates that Parish churches usually just had one set of vestments and used them year round, while cathedrals usually had a few sets, and just used whatever was nicest for high feasts, and whatever was most drab for the day to daym
@@nintendonut100 Well that does make sense as I imagine vestments were incredibly expensive then. Thank you for letting me know it as I’m always willing to learn.
@@albertsmyth9616 you're welcome. Generally speaking it seems that liturgical colours being set in stone happens later on when vestments are more affordable, though there were some colour associations used in parts of England in the Medieval Catholic Church (undyed frontals for Lent, blue or violet for Advent), but they still weren't so widespread.
Is there a reason why “Capitulum viginti duo Tertii Libri Regum” was used instead of "Vigesimum secundum caput Libri Tertii Regum" (or “Secundum vigesimum caput Tertii Libri Regum”) as prescribed by the 1560 book? The somewhat non-standard ending of “Finitur hoc Liber Tertius Regis” I suppose is justified.
Does the Church of England still use that pronunciation or is it the fad of some antiquarian musicians? Did Roman Catholics use that pronunciation before St Pius Xth's encouragement to use the Roman pronunciation?@@AntiquumDocumentum
@@jlucdalmasso very few places use it these days, a good history can be found here - Latin in Church - The History of its Pronunciation amzn.eu/d/g9iWJqM
Hi, thanks for your question!! Some places (the Chapel Royal, Oxford, and some cathedrals eg Durham) retained lots of ritual, Lancelot Andrewes writes about the use of incense, and it’s likely Laudian circles used it too. It is said Exeter cathedral retained the use of the thurible for many centuries. The 1560 LPP seems to have been favoured only by a few (mainly Oxford-based) high churchmen, so it seems likely incense was used on occasion.
1. This is a Church of England service of Evensong, not Roman Catholic vespers. 2. It's not actually 1560, it's 2023. Just because we're unearthing some musical treasures from the 1500s doesn't mean we unearth the social attitudes of the 1500s as well. Anglican churches have had women priests since the 1940s, but we do not, thank God, have castrati anymore!
Ah, Cardinal Fisher! Very nice to see you in good form, Eminence. How has life as a Saint been? Glorious, I suspect! See my own two cents above - Sincerely yours, Sir Thomas. 😂
@@Ofotherworlds Ordaining women was the mistake that led to all the others and now the Anglican "Communion" is in shambles over gays and the CofE fires priests who protest the chanting of the Koran in church and your buildings are virtually empty on Sundays.
I’m sorry, but this is absurd! Women wearing copes? Use of incense after the restoration of the Protestant rite? The claim that the BCP bore any relation to the Sarum rite is ridiculous, save in an extremely reductive way. The Sarum rite was a variant of the pre-Tridentine Roman rite fully in accordance with Catholic doctrine which the Calvinist 39 Articles repudiated.
The burning of incense was clearly recorded in the Daily Office rite of St. Lancelot Andrewes, the blessed bishop who was one of the major translators of King James Bible.
And the Lay clerks were allowed to be coped before and after the English Reformation. This old practice is still preserved in the Chapel Royal, although it looks only the choirmaster is occasionally wearing them!
Overwhelming in beauty and. majesty
Thank you for watching and commenting!
That first reading deserves a round of applause. Blimey.
Excellent! Some years ago at Truro Cathedral we had two instruments from the Early English Organ Project in residence, and a reconstructed Tridentine Mass took place - I particularly remember the challenge of finding enough copes for the choir! If only we'd had the ability to stream in those days...
Thanks for your lovely message! Wow, that sounds really fascinating - it was a big challenge to get enough copes for this service too. Did you know if there were any photos of the Truro service?
@@AntiquumDocumentum - no pix as far as I know, but may be able to find original Order of Service if you have an email link...
@@judithwhitehouse2149oh thank you, it’s antiquum.documentum@gmail.com
Thanks for bringing us this liturgical reconstruction, sung and presented so well.A first,l think,on UA-cam and much appreciated by those of us who like early music.l look forward to more, bringing the sight and sound of glorious early music.God bless
Thank you, that’s very kind. We are glad you enjoyed it!
This is goergous and very prayerful. I'm so glad I saw it on Reddit. I had assumed that everyone vested in a cope was an ordained minister or licensed lay reader, but I see this is not the case? I read in Wikipedia that copes could be used by lay choristers in the Sarum rite but I thought that was abolished and the cope reserved to ministers during the Reformation.
Thank you for tuning in. I am glad you enjoyed it. Thank you for your comments too!!
Well, we know the gentlemen of the chapel royal (lay or ordained) wore copes: www.bl.uk/collection-items/drawings-of-the-funeral-procession-of-elizabeth-i
We were suggesting that in a very conservative or even recusant Oxford college which would have many copes left over from Sarum they may well have continued using them as they always had done before.
I'm not sure that this lot are too bothered about the Reformation! 😂
Oh wow Fitzwilliam as the Fitzwilliam virginal book?
I recall reading that one of the reasons for producing a Latin version of the Book of Common Prayer was the hope of exporting the Reformation to Venice, where the Doge was in a nasty dispute with the Pope over the appointment of bishops (the Pope backed down and so Venice remained Catholic).
Oh wow, sounds fascinating! I’ll read up on it.
Simply wonderful! And I wonder if there might be a recording of the Mass according to the First Prayer Book as it was celebrated in 1549, when most of the clergy still held to the old customs. I think it was done once as part of the liturgy research project led by Professor John Harper (Bangor University) with Dr Sally Harper (Bangor University), but there was no recording of it.
How interesting, sounds like a great reconstruction! Thanks for watching and commenting.
fantastic!
Thank you!
A suggestion - would it be possible to add a few more captions at certain points so you could download the Order of Service and know where in the service you are? I fully realise captioning all of this would be a bit of a nightmare 😁, so if I could have a few more signposts as to where we are in the service, I could definitely keep up.
A fantastic first effort! Really looking forward to seeing more of these come to life.
Hi! Thank you for the feedback, useful know going forwards. Obviously, we can’t edit the video now it’s up, but we will try and put some time-stamps in if we get a moment!
Might you consider making the music, as you've compiled and adapted it, sharable? PM, maybe? You've done such wonderful work!
What's the First Lesson and second, please?
1 Kings 22, Romans 22, all details can be found here: drive.google.com/file/d/1-T8R4jpNXEMuc_W5k1AmqjXBFVkc8rXO/view!
Forgive me, but why is everyone wearing a cope of a different colour? It looks really strange. Please don’t misunderstand me, I’m not criticising because it’s all very beautiful but surely everyone would wear the same colour cope for whichever feast is being celebrated on that day? Black for the dead, red for martyrs or the Holy Ghost etc.. is there a reason why (genuine question)?
Liturgical colours weren't so set in England at the time, and usually they just used whatever they had.
@@nintendonut100 Gosh, as an English Catholic in charge of the liturgical ceremonies in one of the most prominent traditional Catholic Churches in London for over 30 years I have never heard that before! I’m not doubting you, just amazed that this fact had never been apparent to me! That said, I have no experience of High Anglicanism so maybe that’s the reason I’ve never come across it?
@@albertsmyth9616 oh, this was the case in the Medieval Catholic Church in England as well. Documentation indicates that Parish churches usually just had one set of vestments and used them year round, while cathedrals usually had a few sets, and just used whatever was nicest for high feasts, and whatever was most drab for the day to daym
@@nintendonut100 Well that does make sense as I imagine vestments were incredibly expensive then. Thank you for letting me know it as I’m always willing to learn.
@@albertsmyth9616 you're welcome. Generally speaking it seems that liturgical colours being set in stone happens later on when vestments are more affordable, though there were some colour associations used in parts of England in the Medieval Catholic Church (undyed frontals for Lent, blue or violet for Advent), but they still weren't so widespread.
Is there a reason why “Capitulum viginti duo Tertii Libri Regum” was used instead of "Vigesimum secundum caput Libri Tertii Regum" (or “Secundum vigesimum caput Tertii Libri Regum”) as prescribed by the 1560 book? The somewhat non-standard ending of “Finitur hoc Liber Tertius Regis” I suppose is justified.
How do we call their pronunciation of Latin? Is it the traditional English pronunciation before its romanization?
I think it’s normally just “English Latin”
Does the Church of England still use that pronunciation or is it the fad of some antiquarian musicians? Did Roman Catholics use that pronunciation before St Pius Xth's encouragement to use the Roman pronunciation?@@AntiquumDocumentum
@@jlucdalmasso very few places use it these days, a good history can be found here - Latin in Church - The History of its Pronunciation amzn.eu/d/g9iWJqM
Nice. Except, before the CofE lost its soul, there would not have been women in the mix.
1560 Elizabethan Era with incense?
Hi, thanks for your question!! Some places (the Chapel Royal, Oxford, and some cathedrals eg Durham) retained lots of ritual, Lancelot Andrewes writes about the use of incense, and it’s likely Laudian circles used it too. It is said Exeter cathedral retained the use of the thurible for many centuries. The 1560 LPP seems to have been favoured only by a few (mainly Oxford-based) high churchmen, so it seems likely incense was used on occasion.
It's just silly. Women dressed up as men and singing what is normally called Vespers? Its very very confusing!
1. This is a Church of England service of Evensong, not Roman Catholic vespers.
2. It's not actually 1560, it's 2023. Just because we're unearthing some musical treasures from the 1500s doesn't mean we unearth the social attitudes of the 1500s as well. Anglican churches have had women priests since the 1940s, but we do not, thank God, have castrati anymore!
@@Ofotherworldscorrect, this video is pretend. Just like the Church of England is a pretend Catholic church
Ah, Cardinal Fisher! Very nice to see you in good form, Eminence. How has life as a Saint been? Glorious, I suspect! See my own two cents above - Sincerely yours, Sir Thomas. 😂
Disrespectful blather. Proud and conceited. Why are such behaviors so common on-line?
@@Ofotherworlds Ordaining women was the mistake that led to all the others and now the Anglican "Communion" is in shambles over gays and the CofE fires priests who protest the chanting of the Koran in church and your buildings are virtually empty on Sundays.
I doubt that the lessons would have been read with such unnecessary drama as in the case of the first lesson. That is really more 1960's hippie style.
I’m sorry, but this is absurd! Women wearing copes? Use of incense after the restoration of the Protestant rite? The claim that the BCP bore any relation to the Sarum rite is ridiculous, save in an extremely reductive way. The Sarum rite was a variant of the pre-Tridentine Roman rite fully in accordance with Catholic doctrine which the Calvinist 39 Articles repudiated.
The burning of incense was clearly recorded in the Daily Office rite of St. Lancelot Andrewes, the blessed bishop who was one of the major translators of King James Bible.
And the Lay clerks were allowed to be coped before and after the English Reformation. This old practice is still preserved in the Chapel Royal, although it looks only the choirmaster is occasionally wearing them!