Keeping Your Thumb on the Scale (Pun Intended) - Vox Machina, Ep. 41 | Critical Role Demystified
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- Опубліковано 12 сер 2024
- Matt has to convert his players from grieving and traumatized witnesses of a massacre… into action movie heroes. So how does he do it?
Chapters:
00:00 - Lesson: Putting the Players in the Driver’s Seat
06:16 - Lesson: Should You Tell Players How They Feel?
12:21 - Lesson: Let’s Get Rid of Those Leftover Magic Items, Shall We?
17:28 - Lesson: Healing Spells Can’t Heal Narrative Injuries
21:42 - Recap: Vex Wants Treasure, Percy Wants Allies
24:22 - Recap: Matt Receives a Very Special Gift…
25:52: Outro
Recommended Reading:
Are You Stuck in the Sad Gap: • Are You Stuck in The S...
Magic Item Shops Make Magic Items Less Special: • Magic Item Shops Make ...
Wrapping Your Mind Around Armor Class and Hit Points: • Wrapping Your Mind Aro...
You can watch the full episode here:
Episode 41 - In Ruins
• In Ruins | Critical Ro...
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What do you think about telling Players how their Characters feel?
I prefer to straight up ask them when I have an appropriate opportunity to do so.
Generally no, but in this case it was fine.
As a player with a unique situation happening in-campaign, I say it's a huge help. My character has gone through a few arcs that have certainly messed with their memories, philosophy and general wellbeing on a level that makes it difficult to act out in complex ways. My GM helps me by quietly reminding me of these changes to the character, that help inform how I should be acting in the moment! I find it super helpful.
I think it’s fine when their mental state is being affected by magic or dream and find it very helpful in setting a scene. Also I would much rather have a DM straight up tell me how my motivations and feelings have changed if I was ever mind controlled or charmed so I could roleplay it rather than they take over my character as an NPC and have me to basic roles. That said it is a definite tread with caution thing because if I don’t understand or agree with why I supposedly feel a way it would totally break the immersion and agency for me. 😅
I like to throw a few different emotions out there, give them a starting point. Like the quiet at the end of combat, "some of you might feel queasy, whether from your own wounds or another's. For others, a sense of numbness as the adrenaline wears off." etc.
Oh my god I've never seen that highlight of Matt receiveing Thordak (twice). It's so cute. "I buy them for *playing*!" Matt is such a pure soul
the look of excitement on his face looking at the box and just holding it, is so precious, i always get so happy when matt gets to have a moment where hes just so excited for things.
@@athena1491 It’s especially adorable given he’s usually the voice of reason in the group, so him being childishly happy is both slightly uncanny and very cute.
@@stingerjohnny9951 mhmmhm! or less that he has to be the voice of reason, but, he has to hide his excitement, like he cant be like
"YES!!!!!!!!!! THEYRE DOING THE THINGGGGGGG IMMA GET TO PLAY THIS COOL BAD GUY!!!!!!!!!!!"
so him getting to let it all out and just be excited is incredible
Somethin that Matt did really good on this episode is not only telling how the townspeople is reacting with servitude to the dragons, also how he described the destruction caused by the aftermath of the attack. Vox Machina walking through streets filled with frozen people and such is something that is still on my mind.
I agree with Matt’s decision to have Gilmore’s mostly picked clean, but I think there’s another critical point you missed (spoilers for further in Campaign 1): Matt is about to lay out the Vestiges as goals, and it would be much harder to sell them as desirable if the party just topped up on magic stuff.
If they had that "trusty lance of dragonslaying" like Gilmore said in the animated series I think mythcarver would've seem less impressive
@@wumbojet They did already have a Dragonslayer Longsword at this point, though Matt had the forethought to make it require attunement (which isn't RAW) so they couldn't easily pass it around.
Some Clasp bandit is sneaking around somewhere in Emon in Pike's custom stealth armour
@@johnnye87 One might even call them an Invulnerable Vagrant.
This is why i like the current Exhaustion rules - great to give rescued prisoners, victims of monster attacks etc. a few levels of exhaustion that can't be removed by simple healing.
what's the point of healing magic then?
I am going to immediately adopt this. The healing still keeps them alive, but then there's also still narrative weight to whatever trauma they experienced. Brilliant.
@@zippomagethe point is to fill up the magical stamina bar game mechanic for players that we call "hit points"
@@zippomage If three levels of exhaustion gives disadvantage on saving throws, that means disadvantage on death saving throws. Healing magic stops you from doing those.
greater restoration :)
Not me somehow missing every time I was mentioned that Thordak killed their mom until the fight with Thordak 😆 I was like “HE DID WHAT” as if we weren’t explicitly told
RE: the lock picking check. I don't think Liam was necessarily denying the way Matt said Vax felt... Vax could have wished other people saw it, but once he knew they didn't, he decides to play it off and that it's not worth explaining to his group.
"Yes, and" isn't the only valid form of improv - "No, but" also has its place. It led to a small but memorable and amusing moment.
As someone who plays healers often I tend to think of magical healing like stitches or surgery you stopped the wound from being fatal or debilitating but there's still a recovery
I agree, I think the only time that wouldn't be the case is if the character was completely topped off on hit points. I imagine that's probably still equal to waking up from surgery. Lots of pain and discomfort, but you aren't close to dying anymore. It's enough that you can probably move and get to going with things, but unless you are an adventurer, I imagine that going through that sort of stress and trauma is debilitating in it's own way.
@@ahealthkit2745 Gonna be SORE in the mornin.
99% sure that Matt said that Gilmore would have died if they'd gone after the treasure in the campaign wrap-up episode of Talks Machina
Yeah, he did. They probably still would've burned a resurrection spell on him, but having to do a resurrection ritual for a beloved NPC would've still been rough.
Yeah I'm pretty sure you're right
RE: The Well v. Gilmore. I think Matt would have killed Gilmore if they'd have gone treasure gathering instead of helping, not as a consequence of inaction, but of their greed. When the players fall victim to a "What about the money?' moment, it should be fine for that to have a cost. 'You want the immediate pay out of magic items now? Okay, but it costs you a strong ally, later access to what they could give you, and your self respect and reputation as heroes."
Choices should have consequences.
Matt directly stated in the wrap-up that they would've found Gilmore dead if they'd tried to loot the items first. Would've been interesting to see if they'd burn a resurrection ritual on such a beloved NPC, but even then, they'd have to live with it being their fault.
While I don't disagree, my group, as much as I love them, just don't give a fuck about consequences.
Like, their actions could have led to their version of Gilmore dying, and they'd just shrug "Oh well." and off they'd go.
Like, nothing phases them. They don't even get mad or sad or anything.
@MaxxCoyote they need to care about an NPC before the consequences matter.
@@shadowscall7758 Not this group.
I'm still working past what their last DM heaped on them. The guy was so obsessed with "consequences" that it led to table break.
@@MaxxCoyote Basically he was a vengeful god of his own little world and made it everyone else’s problem?
And Gorg. You want that scull. Classic Matt. A nice little joke to break the tension.
I'd never watched the Critmas parts, I'm so glad you shared that moment...Matt's excitement at both minis is precious.
This episode really made me think Gilmore was secretly a gold dragon. It explained him being able to go toe to toe with Thordak, as well as why 70 hit points would still leave him at death's door. It also just fit with his characterization and his shop, and I still kinda wish it was true.
"But if you find a way for me to become a dragon, that would be sexy."
@@OccidentalAvian Is something a secret dragon would say.
I kinda liked how they handle the idea of limited spell slots in the series. Whenever Pike heals someone, it seems like she’s using her own life force to fuel the spell and can only give so much before passing out.
It makes sense within the world while incorporating a rather important mechanic from the game of limited spell slots.
It fits with the non-Vancian magic people are used to these days and it would take too much time to convey Vancian magic in a cartoon.
Kind of wonder how cool it would be it you could take the time to visualize Vancian magic though.
@@verdantmistral442 The Best i can think of Is hoodoo pouches. Basically, you fill a small pouch with the ingredients for a spell, and when you need to use it, you pull it out and focus your intent.
You’d be limited by ingredients, how many you can make, and how many you can carry. Plus is adds elements of both folk magic and alchemy.
What’s not to love?
11:50 I think in this scene Liam/Vax's "It wasn't even locked" is bragging about just how easy it was for him, not dodging Matt's narrative of Vax's feelings but embracing it by praising himself more than seeking praise.
The others seemed to see it the way you're seeing it, but I still think he could have meant it either way.
Like you said, the dreams worked because Matt clearly knows the players and their characters so well. In addition to Keyleth nodding, looking at everyone's expressions during that scene shows they're ALL responding with: "yes, that's exactly what my character is thinking." And then there's Grog. Perfect injection of comic relief in a dark moment without undercutting the serious parts.
I like how Matt's solution to the magic item issue made in-world sense and fleshed-out the situation in Emon. Rather than just having Gilmore's be destroyed. It's completely logical that people would be looting the magic shop after such a disaster, and their reasons for doing so are also understandable. It gives a real sense of why Thordak has to go: what happens once the people run out of gold and gifts for him?
And yeah, it was confirmed in the campaign wrap-up that Gilmore would've died if they'd gone for the treasure. Vex's greed almost backfired on her, huh? I'm sure that won't happen again...
If Vex got her brother’s FWB killed because of the dollar signs in her eyes, she’d probably not be able to look Vax in the eye for a good few days. Maybe an entire session.
I would love if you talked a bit more about how running a dark city underbelly functions when we get to talking about the clasp
yeah i'm still not super clear about how that all works
@@zippomage Taliesin (as Percy) laid out the basics. The "underbelly" (thieves guilds and other organized crime) really only thrive when there's a functional, prosperous citizenry above them, including trade. Think of them as a parasite: the criminal elements drain resources from the rest to sustain themselves. When something as devastating as the Chroma Conclave happens to the city those criminal elements rely on for their survival, it's in those elements' best interests to help restore the city.
Moving to a different location not only exposes them to the dragons, but, they would have to establish themselves. This would mean starting at the bottom rung, and expending resources to move their way up.
Though not out of altruism, the criminal elements help themselves by helping to remove the threat/problem, and rebuild the city.
I was trying to just keep pace with this series but accidentally ended up 20 episodes ahead 😅 this is definitely the point where vox machina gets really good.
It's so good~
You can see the thoughts written on Matt's face when Marisha is telling him not to use the second 'mini'. xD I love it.
I feel like the healing inconsistency between narrative and mechanics can be explained by adrenaline. Adrenaline is a natural painkiller, it doesn't mean that the damage isn't there but the pain is being numbed. Hence it makes sense that in the midst of a fight where adrenaline is high, a post heal spell creature wouldn't show signs of pain while outside of combat they can feel hurt and exhausted.
Healing alone could heal the body, but not ease the pain. Adrenaline would be the 2nd half.
This could also be used after a fight to give adventurers a sense of impact even if they're all healthy. The adrenaline wares off and the strain of exercise and combat would tire them out and hurt them like how people feel after a session at a gym.
It's also easy to forget that we're in a high fantasy setting. I'm sure for most people, adrenaline is how they get through pain and survive healing. Pain shock is a huuuuuge deal irl and is responsible for a lot of death in and of itself. Adrenaline gets you out of danger and helps you recover. For our heroes, though. I imagine that they've become somewhat used to the sensation of being near-death and recovering via magical healing. I'm sure to some effect, there's still that lingering pain shock and trauma, but it sits less heavily on them than it would say, a farmer or vendor.
I'm playing a Way of Mercy monk right now and this is basically how I flavor my healing abilities- hitting certain pressure points to get that extra jolt of adrenaline going and give my party or myself a little bit of extra energy to fight with
That's a fun way to flavour it~@@anonymwlw
You could also say that the healing magic gives them a jolt to get them back in the fight in addition to stitching them back together.
"It's a fucking bloodbath". That sums up like 2/3 of this arc, not just one particular fight. But we'll get to that.
18:00 - i think it was on Talks machina round up on Campaign one
It was the Talks machina round up on Campaign one
You know it's going to be a good day when you get to start the morning off with a new SupergeekMike video!!
End of C1 SPOILERS
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Realizing that Vax probably will be what Gilmore sees in his real last moments 😭😭😭
C3 SPOILERS
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…. Or not 💀
That was a one-two punch of “awww sweet but sad” and “OH GOD NO WHY”
I've never seen Matt that excited before :D what a time!
Oh boy… next episode is going to be rough to go through, because of how divided the entire fandom was in regards to an infamous debate…
Sometimes I’m so glad not to be “in” the fandom as such, since it means that even though I’ve seen most episodes multiple times, I don’t get exposed to this nonsense. But I’m curious what moment you’re referring to. (And I’m expecting Marisha is central to it, given the fandom’s general treatment of her in C1.)
@@SomethingWellesian Oh yeah, and how folks solely blame her for the discourse of that particular debate… when in fact it was much more complicated.
Basically, it’s the debate of whether to side with the Clasp. Personally, I’m on Keyleth’s side; such an “alliance” was too risky to pursue, too many strings attached. That, and she was thinking long-term as opposed to Percy’s usual short-term stopgap solutions, a quick fix for a longer issue. A perk (and detriment) of her eventual longevity; it means that she would live to see the consequences of their collective actions.
And ultimately, they didn’t need the Clasp, anyway. They managed to make do with them.
Make do WITHOUT them*
I hate typos.
@@AdamEspersona Also while Vox Machina failed to make a deal, it turns out Seeker Assum was able to do it anyway offscreen by leveraging his prior membership.
@@OccidentalAvian indeed, thus rendering the debate utterly pointless... and placing the Council in a very precarious position post-Conclave.
Ooo very cool! So fun to see and hear about things that both didn’t make it to the cartoon and haven’t been clipped in a highlight reel before. Thanks!
Personally, I try to avoid telling my players how their characters feel, *unless* there are outside forces or other circumstances that are compelling that feeling.
Regarding Liam/Vax not being much of a braggart throughout the three campaigns, and even the various one-shots, I am inclined to agree.
Caleb is pretty much the polar opposite of being a braggart (for multiple reasons), and Orym exudes (mostly) quiet confidence. Yes, there's the running joke of him doing all of these push-ups and similar exercises shortly after waking up each game day, but, even then, he's not doing it to show off, it's part of who that character is.
Thank you again for a fantastic video!
This actually gives me some insight at how to deal with some short terms events in my game. Amazing!
I love the juxtaposition from that tone change. Bright and cheery tone of "And it's initiative, so here are some highlights" [brief pause] serious tone for "It's a f-cking bloodbath"
This battle also helps serve as a point for VM that they are not likely many others who can or will face these dragons.
Oh shit! I just saw Jason in LA By Night, too, he played a Lycan. I know Taliesin guest starred in that one, too, so I wonder if he suggest he pop over to CR.
Or did VM come before LA By Night?
Edit: also; if Jason came up with the name Garthak from “narfle the garthak”, aka the Coneheads movie, the man is now a fucking legend, 😂
I have that dragon miniature (got it when they first came out). I haven't used it in games much, but it has been the centre-piece of many displays for rpg societies I've been part of.
This is a good channel. This is a good series. I like Mike.
Great episode! Love your analysis!
@17:56 He said that Gilmore would have died in the campaign wrap-up
Matt openign the Thordak figuring and Liam just stating he has mixed feelings is hilarious. Then Matt getting a second one with his face over it...priceless
That Vax scene with the lock I see what you mean but I take it as Matt is the voice in Liam* head telling him he should brag or tell them how quick he picked it but then liams* like nah they won't believe me they know I can pick locks they've seen it.... sigh "hey guys it wasn't even locked get up here"
17:57 To answer that I believe he said it during the Campaign 1 Wrap Up episode. Which if you're a fan of the show and haven't watched it yet, there's a LOT of great stuff laid on the table in it. Should watch when you've a couple of hours to spare. :D
Pretty sure with the success of the animated series, Matt could make that figure more valuable than mint in box condition by signing it.
Especially if he gets the voice of Thordak to sign it too
Sadly, Lance Reddick, the voice of Thordak, passed earlier this year
I love theese rebuilding episodes, where everything starts slowly working aggain.
To be honest it's my favourite type of arc. The Rebuilding after an utter catastrophe, the salvaging of all that's left
But it just feels so cruel to crush everything down, to introduce that catastrophe. It feels wrong....
And yet it's essential for the Rebuilding to take place.
It's so complicated.
I'm honestly just a novice/hobbyist writer and Indontnknow when they first book will be published, even tho it's ready.
But my oh my do I wanna write an Arc about "Salvaging all that's left" even if it's just an emotional one about a broken person. I don't know tho if I ever will. It feels just so cruel to introduce a catastrophe, a horrible backstory or... pretty much everything.
If you're to write the instigator convincingly, then you need to feel like he instigator in some way. But that exact thing makes me feel cruel. I ... I just don't know. Congratulations to mat for destroying his city I guess.
It's jot easy
I really feel like "Rebuilding" moments like this are super vital to the core "hero" fantasy. It's hard to be a hero if you aren't salvaging through the waste and helping people get back on their feet, otherwise you are just sort of part of the problem. Yeah, you stopped the bad guy but you left a whole countryside devastated and without anyone to look towards for help, aside the mysterious gang who slew the menace. It also creates a fun dilemma for the party too. Do they stop and help a place rebuild after devastation, or do they feel a moral imperative to move on so that they can stop the menace that caused this mayhem before it happens to another city?
I was reminded of the "it wasn't even locked" moment when I recently introduced a friend to The Legend of Vox Machina. Rewatching S1E4, I suddenly registered that Vax was casually playing with a knife after the episode made a point of their weapons/potential weapons being confiscated right down to the cutlery.
It's not an unusual trope in itself, and the episode also shows Percy explicitly opening secret compartments to assemble a new gun... except that Percy's project is very much front-and-center of the visuals of his scene, while neither the characters nor the episode plot *ever* draw attention to the guards failing to fully disarm Vax--it's not a focal point of the scene; he doesn't brag about it; Vex doesn't comment, and no other character ever appears to notice that Vax has a knife he "shouldn't," not even when the fighting starts and he uses that knife while everyone else is still disarmed (and not even Scanlan, who the twins *watch* struggling to make a sandwich without any cutlery while Vax is using his secret knife as a fidget spinner).
I think that Matt talked about the choice of going to the well or staying in Gilmore's shop in the Campaign wrap up, which has sadly been unlisted on youtube.
13:50 "And it's initiative, so here are some highlights! It's a fucking bloodbath." Mike I LOVE your delivery here 😂
Thank you!
The way I see it, the spell healed Gilmore's wounds, but he still lost a _lot_ of blood, so he's still going to be weak for a while afterwards. He's not losing any more, but he needs time to recover. Why doesn't this apply to PCs? Well, normally they're not wounded for as long as Gilmore was here, and, like, they can heal from everything shy of losing a limb or an organ by napping for eight hours, they're not exactly _normal._ But that ties into the question of whether PCs are canonically superhuman or not, of course. I lean on the stance that Adventurers _are_ superhuman, that's the difference between a Fighter and NPC soldier, or a Cleric and the local priest, but others can and _will_ disagree with that.
I like to view HP as more of a mixture of physical toughness, pain resistance, experience (twisting your body so the blow hits armour or somewhere non vital on impact) and luck and when you go to zero it's simply the first time one of those factors fails you and the attack hits something vital.
I ran my party through this (at the time I was the only Critter they still don't watch the game and only know the story from the cartoon). They too healed Gilmore, but mechanically I told them he was at 5 ranks of exhaustion.
Well, Heal is a 6th level healing spell. At that point, it would be the team's highest spell slot. It even heals some major scars and lingering injuries, if you use that in your table. So yeah, at least in my tables I would double down on the heal spell. The surge of magic, the woulds closing, bones snapping back into place, eyes shining, hair flowing. Epic and rewarding. And I don't think it would be unfit for the narrative beat. For how high level Gilmore is, it wouldn't bring him back to full probably, and he would probably keep some lingering injuries (a limp, a sore eye) that would still keep the bleak tone. Besides, if you roleplay being "out of spell slots" as tired or burned out, he would still look like it.
Hey Dude, Love the videos. Just wanted to ask did you check if your Strahd came with a small circular plastic base? usually Funko throws those into the box for figures that can't stand on their own.
Oh forgor it was a Demystified week. Time just flies by.
Double Thordak Thursdays
I would have lost my shit if we lost Shaun Gilmore. I have great feeling for him. The game could have gone way differently.
Though I have to say, a Gilmore resurrection would have been REALLY interesting!!!
you should get a stand for that strahd funko! let him breathe! lol
Strahd doesn’t need to breathe, he’s a vampire 😉
Iirc matt talks about Gilmore dying if vox machina went for the loot during the campaign 1 wrap up stream
Oh! I have that mini! it was a lotta money but then I was in college and was dumb with my cash. But I still have it!
No shade towards Jason Charles Miller but I completely forgot Garthok was a character in the game until your last CR video
SPOILERS FOR CAMPAIGN 1 AND 3
Gilmore saying "that's always what I assumed I'd see in my last moments" is heart breaking because if vac gets set free of the orb when Gilmore dies (may it not be anytime soon) it will presumably be Vax who escorts him into the afterlife thus actually being the last thing he sees in his death
Hey Mike you were using LOVM clips before , why arent you anymore ?
I’ve hardly ever used clips from the cartoon, though I do use lots of screenshots when they apply
It would take a rework of healing but trying to heal someone can be very dramatic just watch any medical drama if you need inspiration
It's right HERE: 19:55 19:58 , where it gets EERIE AF!!! No one knows what's coming. But VAX'ILDAN 'S face is what he WILL SEE IN HIS LAST MOMENTS.. also the moments after
Ko-Fi is better than Patreon. Ko-Fi only takes a flat $5 from you, rather than the whatever percent Patreon does
I actually just created a Kofi this month ☺️
Healing is so busted in D&D. There's this flimsy idea that HP represents fighting spirit, morale and stamina, which lends itself nicely to Bard- and Cleric-type healing, but it totally falls apart when said healing also removes poisons and stuff, and can make you conscious after getting knocked out. There's no lasting injuries and if there were, it would just create a death spiral which would result in you never seeing it anyway.
It's illustrative to see Matt Mercer have to navigate this clusterfuck in real time, and how his solution is basically just to direct attention away from it and move on as quickly as possible because the game is flat-out incapable of meeting him on his own terms.
major c1 c2 c3 spoilers regarding liam's characters:
last warning
liam DOES indeed play characters with often negative / minimizing / uncaring approaches to recieving praise.
maybe thats a part of liam, maybe thats just a quality he finds interesting. a quality i personally find interesting as well is that many of his characters have a "martyr"-like quality.
vax literally martyred his soul to save his sister, for the most obvious example
caleb demonstrated far more self preservation than vax did, but there was still an essence of willing to risk it all to get what he wants. being a martyr requires you to care more about a mission or ideology than your own life, and while the self preservation is at odds with that urge, its pretty clear for the first third of the campaign that caleb cares very little for his health or wellbeing. (caleb also says calculated risk and gamble a LOT)
orym circles right back around to the vax side of things, liam plays him in and outside of combat as a protector or personal guardian for the witches of the group, often being at the top of initiative means he starts many encounters by running directly at the enemy.
thought it was an interesting observation. caleb breaks the pattern somewhat, but vax and orym have a LOT of that "i will literally die before i fail my mission" spice in them.