I've got to disagree with Alan Moore about Hawk & Dove: if you actually read the comics Ditko did with them, I think it's pretty clear that they are both intended to be in the wrong and that it's their father that is intended to be almost literally the voice of reason and that is definitely the mouthpiece for Ditko's point of view. Now, pretty much all the stories after Ditko would fit Moore's characterization, but I don't think Ditko's do any way near as much.
I have a lot of respect for Steve Ditko. I admire people who stick to their guns and don't sell out. I wish more people in the world had his integrity. I don't agree with his poltical views but I respect them.
It's sad how he makes Dove look so pathetic on the covers. I prefer the Justice League Unlimited version where he was willing to fight when he needs to and brothers have a bickering respect for each other. It's sad that he had to fall so hard.
the part where the guy talks about Ditko essentially telling the young readers that you are either right or wrong, and kids dont want to be told theyre wrong, so Ditko lost their base reminds me of what happened with Frank Miller.
@harveydents Thats not true. HE never gave credit to Kirby for all the stories he wrote either, Stan just added script to stories entirely created by Jack. The Galactic story is a classic. Jacks brief was Lets have the FF meet God. Jack came back with the amazing Galactus and silver surfer stories and Stan added a script. Nowhere was Jack credited as creator or writer.
This would be more sad if he wasn't someone who didn't want to be found. He still got screwed but not nearly as much as Bill Finger,at least Ditko gets credit on the movies. On another note,how fucking cool is Alan Moore? I could listen to him talk for days,he's like a smart Karl Pilkington,who I guess is smart in his own way. I like them both a great deal btw
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geekrockrats totally agree, the man is fucking interesting
@ Whenever I read Moore, he references moral philosophers, but appears to not care about the nuances in morality, as he is concerned with how people do act in the real world, but never suggests solutions to the problems, and claims he is leaving it up to the reader to decide. From which I can't help but wonder, is he merely preaching? Quite strange, eh?!
If Steve ditko wanted credit or others want Steve ditko more credit, well think this, maybe Steve Ditko should have been more public with it, you can't hide away expecting to get noticed, either way, Steve Ditko is awesome, I do believe he deserves more credit but that doesn't make Stan lee a bad guy.
@Diakron79 I don't consider it a sacred cow, just that Dove seemed so strawman in the comics and strawmaning is not the way to get a point across. And it was nicer to see a more balanced aspect and from what I recently looked up, it was nice that after the second issue. I respect what Ditko did, but it feels kind of tragic that he shut himself off so much from what the special said.
This documentary is misleading in that it implies Steve Ditko did not receive credit, when from day one Steve Ditko's name is printed in every comic he drew for Marvel. The misunderstanding comes from the description of Stan Lee as the 'writer' and Steve Ditko as 'artist' which is correct, but funnily enough, does not accurately describe the grey area which was the collaborative nature of the story. Keep in mind that Stan Lee is a very public, charming individual whereas Steve Ditko is a self-imposed recluse, and it's easy to see why Stan Lee is the one people think of when it comes to creating these characters.
James Alexander Knighton I don't understand your point of view. Were you not listening, or were you out doing your nails?!? Stan Lee, for years did next to nothing to correct the assumption that he was the sole creator of all the top selling marvel characters of the day. That Steve Ditko, Jack Kirby and others, were little more than artist for hire or cheque book artists. People like you make me sick! Great, that Ditko got his name printed in every issue but what about the commercial success that Stan Lee scooped up? Stan Lee has scrambled on the backs of a number of 'Collaborators(?)' to get to where he is today.
BearCubster Yeah but it also would be a crime to say that Ditko is fucked just because he isn't nearly as wealthy as Stan Lee. He should be mentioned I agree, but saying that he deserves some financial reward for his contributions is just plain wrong, since he clearly doesn't care about it.
I'm just pissed off that it took me years to get a full story that today's audiences can get just sitting in a movie! Lol.@Diakron79: Good question... I suppose I do, ultimately... but not at the expense of others...I think the whole talkin' about psycotropics part was a little unecessary. Why tarnish someone's name like that after the fact (of him passing away)?Just call her a bully, then. "Fascist" as an insult has been used so much, it's lost all meaning. Fascism is built on silencing opposition, whereas Objectivism rejects censorship. Fascism teaches that a person's sole duty is to the nation-state, whereas Objectivism is about providing a framework to let the individual thrive. In theory, anyway. Objectivism crumbles away when met with cold hard reality. For the record, I do agree that Rand was a terrible person and her ideals are utter tripe.Fair enough. I bow to your obviously superior knowledge.
Are you referring to this or comic book movies? The movies are cool but it's never the same as reading them. Plus they go on indefinitely,you can't really do that in a movie. I don't think there's ever been a film that was better than the comic except maybe the first Blade. That's just my opinion but to me that character was never that interesting until Wesely Snipes brought him to life. Whatever happened to Snipes anyway? It seems like the biggest hit of his career ended it in a way. It couldn't be type casting since he was well known long before being the day walker. Woah,sorry for the novel. I got caught up in my thoughts and don't remember how this started
@harveydents Hmm that's not what Jack told my friend of 15 years when he went to stay with Jack not long before he died. Still I guess old people get mixed up huh?
As wealthy?!?I'm not talking about whose share of the wealth/reward should be larger.That's a matter for Stan lee, the lawyers, marvel and Ditko.And what is it you're saying? That Ditko shouldn't be paid because he doesn't care about the money now? Or that he didn't care about the money then? Which is it? Either way, what you've said is laughable.
well I think more than anything, Steve was wrong. There is never absolute good and evil. Always shades. look at eastern Religions ala Hinduism/buddhism compared to the black and white abrahmic/ middle eastern stuff
I'd love to make a Mr. A fan comic where a rival superhero or villain calls Mr. A out on his bullshit and then proceeds to beat the shit out of him. Well, it wouldn't be a one-sided fight because that'd be just as propagandous as Mr. A himself. I'd do a deconstruction of Mr. A's ideology and politics in contrast to another rival who's aware of the greys of morality and human nature. The two might not set out to kick the shit out of eachother, but through their incompatibility they trade blows when they hit boiling point.
Letting British leftists make bad commentary on Ayn Rand is utterly pointless. Alan Moore doesn't "get" this phase of Ditko, because he's incapable of getting it ideologically. Rorschach is a brilliant character, but he's more like a poorly understood parody of characters like the Question than anything else. I'm not even an Objectivist, but this irritates me.
@YaoiHuntressEarth Why....are you so hostile and haughty to an honest artist's work whenever you wave your Almighty fan-doggish cartoon show at everything else that you consider inferior? Seriously, it's like some kind of holy sacred cow to you.
Alan Moore is such a great wizard!
I've got to disagree with Alan Moore about Hawk & Dove: if you actually read the comics Ditko did with them, I think it's pretty clear that they are both intended to be in the wrong and that it's their father that is intended to be almost literally the voice of reason and that is definitely the mouthpiece for Ditko's point of view.
Now, pretty much all the stories after Ditko would fit Moore's characterization, but I don't think Ditko's do any way near as much.
I have a lot of respect for Steve Ditko. I admire people who stick to their guns and don't sell out. I wish more people in the world had his integrity. I don't agree with his poltical views but I respect them.
His "integrity" really just means he was an inflexible moron with the worldview of a child that had no concept of compromise.
Rorschach's "Ferocious moral integrity" was inspired by Steve Ditko
A trick: watch series on Flixzone. I've been using them for watching a lot of movies during the lockdown.
@Landen Dominick Yup, been using Flixzone for since december myself =)
It's sad how he makes Dove look so pathetic on the covers. I prefer the Justice League Unlimited version where he was willing to fight when he needs to and brothers have a bickering respect for each other.
It's sad that he had to fall so hard.
All I know is I want the comic back drops from this show
Fair enough. I bow to your obviously superior knowledge.
the part where the guy talks about Ditko essentially telling the young readers that you are either right or wrong, and kids dont want to be told theyre wrong, so Ditko lost their base reminds me of what happened with Frank Miller.
Never knew Ditko created the Creeper..one of my favorite characters!
@harveydents
Thats not true. HE never gave credit to Kirby for all the stories he wrote either, Stan just added script to stories entirely created by Jack. The Galactic story is a classic. Jacks brief was Lets have the FF meet God. Jack came back with the amazing Galactus and silver surfer stories and Stan added a script. Nowhere was Jack credited as creator or writer.
I wish i had his rings..
This would be more sad if he wasn't someone who didn't want to be found. He still got screwed but not nearly as much as Bill Finger,at least Ditko gets credit on the movies. On another note,how fucking cool is Alan Moore? I could listen to him talk for days,he's like a smart Karl Pilkington,who I guess is smart in his own way. I like them both a great deal btw
geekrockrats totally agree, the man is fucking interesting
@ Whenever I read Moore, he references moral philosophers, but appears to not care about the nuances in morality, as he is concerned with how people do act in the real world, but never suggests solutions to the problems, and claims he is leaving it up to the reader to decide. From which I can't help but wonder, is he merely preaching? Quite strange, eh?!
You can't go wrong with The Creeper
If Steve ditko wanted credit or others want Steve ditko more credit, well think this, maybe Steve Ditko should have been more public with it, you can't hide away expecting to get noticed, either way, Steve Ditko is awesome, I do believe he deserves more credit but that doesn't make Stan lee a bad guy.
Did you know how he die?
Stanley Leiber's greatest creation was Stan Lee
@Diakron79 I don't consider it a sacred cow, just that Dove seemed so strawman in the comics and strawmaning is not the way to get a point across. And it was nicer to see a more balanced aspect and from what I recently looked up, it was nice that after the second issue. I respect what Ditko did, but it feels kind of tragic that he shut himself off so much from what the special said.
Stan Lee and Steve Ditko were like Lennon/McCartney, Rock N Sock Connection, peanut butter and jelly...
This documentary is misleading in that it implies Steve Ditko did not receive credit, when from day one Steve Ditko's name is printed in every comic he drew for Marvel. The misunderstanding comes from the description of Stan Lee as the 'writer' and Steve Ditko as 'artist' which is correct, but funnily enough, does not accurately describe the grey area which was the collaborative nature of the story.
Keep in mind that Stan Lee is a very public, charming individual whereas Steve Ditko is a self-imposed recluse, and it's easy to see why Stan Lee is the one people think of when it comes to creating these characters.
James Alexander Knighton I don't understand your point of view. Were you not listening, or were you out doing your nails?!? Stan Lee, for years did next to nothing to correct the assumption that he was the sole creator of all the top selling marvel characters of the day. That Steve Ditko, Jack Kirby and others, were little more than artist for hire or cheque book artists. People like you make me sick! Great, that Ditko got his name printed in every issue but what about the commercial success that Stan Lee scooped up? Stan Lee has scrambled on the backs of a number of 'Collaborators(?)' to get to where he is today.
BearCubster Yeah but it also would be a crime to say that Ditko is fucked just because he isn't nearly as wealthy as Stan Lee. He should be mentioned I agree, but saying that he deserves some financial reward for his contributions is just plain wrong, since he clearly doesn't care about it.
Oh that's rubbish on so many levels!!!!
Grow up!!
Cuz extravert duh... He needs validation from people
@JohnKiller118 I think it's spider man 2. Probably the only really brilliant spidey game.
Spiderman 1 on the PS1 was the best.
@harveydents
Besides the credit should have been on the comic. It wasn't.
@harveydents not really, Ross is more right that you are.... ; P
But seriously, care to enlighten us?
I'm just pissed off that it took me years to get a full story that today's audiences can get just sitting in a movie! Lol.@Diakron79: Good question... I suppose I do, ultimately... but not at the expense of others...I think the whole talkin' about psycotropics part was a little unecessary. Why tarnish someone's name like that after the fact (of him passing away)?Just call her a bully, then. "Fascist" as an insult has been used so much, it's lost all meaning. Fascism is built on silencing opposition, whereas Objectivism rejects censorship. Fascism teaches that a person's sole duty is to the nation-state, whereas Objectivism is about providing a framework to let the individual thrive. In theory, anyway. Objectivism crumbles away when met with cold hard reality. For the record, I do agree that Rand was a terrible person and her ideals are utter tripe.Fair enough. I bow to your obviously superior knowledge.
Are you referring to this or comic book movies? The movies are cool but it's never the same as reading them. Plus they go on indefinitely,you can't really do that in a movie. I don't think there's ever been a film that was better than the comic except maybe the first Blade. That's just my opinion but to me that character was never that interesting until Wesely Snipes brought him to life. Whatever happened to Snipes anyway? It seems like the biggest hit of his career ended it in a way. It couldn't be type casting since he was well known long before being the day walker. Woah,sorry for the novel. I got caught up in my thoughts and don't remember how this started
@@geekrockrats he went to prison tax fraud
@@geekrockrats popular in blade, money train, New jack city
@harveydents
Hmm that's not what Jack told my friend of 15 years when he went to stay with Jack not long before he died.
Still I guess old people get mixed up huh?
As wealthy?!?I'm not talking about whose share of the wealth/reward should be larger.That's a matter for Stan lee, the lawyers, marvel and Ditko.And what is it you're saying? That Ditko shouldn't be paid because he doesn't care about the money now? Or that he didn't care about the money then? Which is it? Either way, what you've said is laughable.
Great show but just terrible music choices!
Please tell us more about how your fairytale philosophy is totally legit, and how its creator spent her final days mooching off social security.
well I think more than anything, Steve was wrong.
There is never absolute good and evil. Always shades. look at eastern Religions ala Hinduism/buddhism compared to the black and white abrahmic/ middle eastern stuff
I'd love to make a Mr. A fan comic where a rival superhero or villain calls Mr. A out on his bullshit and then proceeds to beat the shit out of him.
Well, it wouldn't be a one-sided fight because that'd be just as propagandous as Mr. A himself. I'd do a deconstruction of Mr. A's ideology and politics in contrast to another rival who's aware of the greys of morality and human nature. The two might not set out to kick the shit out of eachother, but through their incompatibility they trade blows when they hit boiling point.
That was the point of Watchmen
😅😅😅
nope.
I totally loath Stan Lee.
BearCubster why?
Like you know all the ins and outs.
Letting British leftists make bad commentary on Ayn Rand is utterly pointless. Alan Moore doesn't "get" this phase of Ditko, because he's incapable of getting it ideologically. Rorschach is a brilliant character, but he's more like a poorly understood parody of characters like the Question than anything else. I'm not even an Objectivist, but this irritates me.
@YaoiHuntressEarth Why....are you so hostile and haughty to an honest artist's work whenever you wave your Almighty fan-doggish cartoon show at everything else that you consider inferior? Seriously, it's like some kind of holy sacred cow to you.