Forget it: when canon and continuity doesn't matter

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  • Опубліковано 3 лис 2024

КОМЕНТАРІ • 52

  • @laverdadescatolica5
    @laverdadescatolica5 День тому +11

    This is REALLY a responsibility of the editors. Editors need to study and keep certain bullet points for ALL writers/artists to respect regarding certain characters.
    That’s their JOB.

  • @Dreamfox-df6bg
    @Dreamfox-df6bg День тому +10

    Star Trek: Into Darkness (2013): "Kahn beams from Earth to Kronos light years away."
    Me: "You just made starships superfluous.
    Star Trek: Beyond (2016): "Let's ignore that little detail."
    Me: "I know why you ignore it, but I can't trust anything you show or tell me any more. I'll keep my money from now on."

    • @PrivateCitizen84
      @PrivateCitizen84 11 годин тому

      The scene that really made my eye rolls was the cell scene. When he said Khan. That scene was totally for the audience as this Kirk has no idea who even that Khan is. Khan was just the next bad guy and Kirk was just next obstacle for the bad guy. None of all that passionate vengence for a love lost and a people marooned on a hell hole. The OH NO impactive Khan scene was Chekhov (and he was probably told of it or read it in a log, because he wasn't present when Khan was on the ship), but he got Khan was a massive threat and had history with Star Fleet.

  • @adamfrey4920
    @adamfrey4920 День тому +18

    Canon = Uncle Ben dies because Peter Parker didn't bother to stop a burglar.
    Continuity = If Uncle Ben dies in issue #1, then he can't turn up alive in #2 as if #1 never happened.
    Canon is the overall structure of a story. Continuity is events being consistently acknowledged as if the past were real.
    Continuity has been baked into Marvel forever. That's the reason people get upset over this stuff when it gets casually jettisoned.

    • @PrivateCitizen84
      @PrivateCitizen84 11 годин тому

      When it comes to Big Two they have literal gods, magic, time travel, multiverse and mad science.
      Issue #6 Spider-man chases phil to his mom's basement, because he been a very naughty boy stealing stuff to make his time vortex manipulator. Phil "You will not stop me Spider-man from my ultimate achievement"! Phil presses a button and sends a grain of sand through time. Phil inside the anti paradox time shield cage (to monitor changes in time off his mac book pro) product placement required)) and the door snaps shut. Phil sent a grain of sand back in time which caused a butterfly effect and Uncle Ben turns up alive in issue #2. A world without Spider-Man tempered by his loss of with great power, come great responsibilty. Then you get to find out in issue #6 why Ben is really alive and Spider Man is a total massive dick.

    • @adamfrey4920
      @adamfrey4920 10 годин тому +1

      @PrivateCitizen84 I'm not a fan of pedantic arguments. So, yes, you can do any number of stories where the past is intentionally changed by the author. That doesn't change continuity because Uncle Ben's death isn't ignored and the change is an intentional part of the story. Where people get upset is when story continuity is just plain lazily ignored, e.g., Uncle Ben is alive because the writer *just didn't feel* like using that part of history.

    • @PrivateCitizen84
      @PrivateCitizen84 10 годин тому

      @@adamfrey4920 The more you into something the more you get into the weeds. It's kind of the nature of fandoms. I am pretty surface level when it comes to other things. So I get the point you are making.

  • @eric_linden
    @eric_linden 21 годину тому +6

    Canon is easier to understand if you think of a TV show. If something happened on Seinfeld last season, you can’t just ignore it this season.

  • @SalvatoreM1
    @SalvatoreM1 День тому +9

    For some reason (and I don’t know why) all I can think about is how Bill Watts banned moves off the top rope in the early 90’s.
    He didn’t want to stop people from going to the top. He just wanted it to be taboo, and special when someone actually did.
    I guess that respecting canon is setting a bar so that when that bar is broken, it actually means something

  • @AL-ws5yi
    @AL-ws5yi День тому +12

    I prefer writers stick to continuity and canon. Unfortunately, they’ve broken it beyond repair for years now.

  • @KyleDornez
    @KyleDornez День тому +7

    Oh, I get it, if Bobby dated Kitty, and Kitty is gay, so Bobby was gay all this time, since both of them dated a gay person. It's so clear now.

  • @carlgibson285
    @carlgibson285 День тому +10

    Continuity is one of the most important things in comics, but I don't mind them occasionally changing the canon if it's necessary. For example, at one point it was canon that The Punisher, Reed Richards and Ben Grimm were all Vietnam vets. If they'd kept that as canon, those characters would now be octogenarians.

    • @adamfrey4920
      @adamfrey4920 День тому +2

      I don't know if that's "canon." Canon is more like an event is an inherent part of the character's structure. Captain America fighting in WWII is canon. The Punisher being a "war veteran" is probably canon, with Vietnam being a strong part of him for awhile but it was ultimately dropped.
      Reed and Ben were never said to have been in Vietnam. They have some background flavor as war vets, but the specific war has never mattered.

    • @carlgibson285
      @carlgibson285 День тому +2

      @adamfrey4920 I agree with you, and yes, The Punisher being a war vet is still canon, they just updated it to (I think) the war in Afghanistan. It does mean there are a few Punisher stories that are no longer canon though, especially some issues of his 80s series that were flashback issues to his time in 'Nam.
      As for Reed and Ben, I'm pretty sure there was a 4 issue mini-series about them in Vietnam, but maybe I'm imagining it.
      As I said though, I agree with your take on what canon is or should be.

    • @adamfrey4920
      @adamfrey4920 День тому +3

      @@carlgibson285 I sanity checked. Reed and Ben were in WWII. If that was updated later to Vietnam, I never saw it.

    • @carlgibson285
      @carlgibson285 День тому +1

      @adamfrey4920 thanks for checking. You're right, it was WWll, not Vietnam.

    • @andresanguianozuniga6798
      @andresanguianozuniga6798 17 годин тому

      That it's fixed with a reboot that stablishes that heroes exist on present day.
      I think in modern days and in the Netflix series he is an Irak vet.

  • @ComicBookMuscle
    @ComicBookMuscle День тому +4

    Rarely do I ever agree with every point made on this channel, but this video I agree 💯💯💯💯💯 from start to finish. From the pretentious in need of humility to understanding why these characters and stories are around for new writers and artists to work on today and into the future.
    Very well said.
    Every writer and editor at DC and Marvel should heed this commentary.

  • @andrewrowland6086
    @andrewrowland6086 День тому +3

    I prefer writers build their stories with established canon in mind. What I find disingenuous is when comic professionals start talking about mythology and how it contradicts itself. First off, mythology, or a great deal of it, started as religion. It's purpose is entirely different than comics. Mythology was about explaining the way the world worked and how humans and deities intersected, so people would have an idea of what was morally acceptable, which celebrations or ceremonies had to be performed when, etc. Comics is about telling stories in a fictional world. They're about escapism and a key element is continuity, at least in a shared universe. Writers should absolutely not be too restricted, but that needs to be balanced with the expectations of the audience.

  • @misternegative4918
    @misternegative4918 23 години тому +1

    I feel like there’s certain things in canon you don’t break or mess with, but also there’s some things that are fun mess with and change.
    Like character are only interesting if they contradict themselves in certain things, I think a lot of lore stuff is really fun to see contradicted and changed. I think this has always been done, just now comics don’t last long so we never get the payoff to see it fixed or the explanation for the change in lore. Having rules is fun, but I always think things get even more interesting when they’re broken and we see what happens from there

  • @Sal_comics
    @Sal_comics День тому +3

    I think the Big 2 could have fun with their continuity, like I wish one of the X-Men would randomly mention "Remember that time we teamed up with those Star Trek guys and fought Kang?" But if continuity changes feel forced, like for me it was the Xorn/Magneto reveal being retconned, it takes me out of the story and makes me want to drop the book.

  • @rickyb2157
    @rickyb2157 День тому +3

    Is canon/continuity realistic over a period of 60+ years? I think this actually starts to work against the big2. Stories start to repeat themselves without any stakes. To my opinion they need to reboot every so many years, and only stay true to the core of the characters. Hence the excitement with ultimate & absolute, finally something new and fresh with surprising story telling. Keeps it interesting for the fans but also the creators...

  • @andresanguianozuniga6798
    @andresanguianozuniga6798 17 годин тому +1

    Canon is the events of something, continuity is what you use to do it make sense.
    Not having a real one, changing it for political or personal gain kills something that is vital to fiction:
    VEROSIMILITUDE.
    And yes, the Iceman thing breaks canon because IT WAS OUT OF NOWHERE.
    The rest of the Iceman thing is attempts of explaining why he never came out, ironically making him a 90s gay stereotype.
    Outside of Prog trash, Marvel and DC have YEARS of this not existing...their universes do not matter anymore both OUT and IN their world.

  • @drewkre
    @drewkre День тому +2

    Perch - None of this canon debate answers the most important question of all. Who really shot J.R. Ewing in Dallas???

    • @jemhoare2105
      @jemhoare2105 23 години тому +2

      Perch made it clear that Bobby Drake shot J.R.

  • @jemhoare2105
    @jemhoare2105 23 години тому +2

    If you can't write within the limits of the genre, you can't write for that genre. Creativity is finding a solution to a problem, it isn't being able to do whatever you want. If you can't adhere to canon, you aren't creative enough to call yourself an artist. Or you are just lazy and undisciplined. Superhero comics is the most wide-open genre, if you can't create within that, you are not creative.
    Look at Alan Moore, no matter how off-the-wall the continuity is, he manages to make it work.

  • @PaballoKobe-xh9ve
    @PaballoKobe-xh9ve День тому +2

    Bro just be grant morrison

  • @guillermogarcia4833
    @guillermogarcia4833 День тому +3

    I would like to write the X-men or even a tv show man the stuff you cans do with them and the ideas. You can write about a school for mutant like a real one not, old X-men being teachers, mutants being use in civilian to do different jobs by now but damn these writer lack creativity or don’t care sometimes.

  • @commonsense5199
    @commonsense5199 День тому +3

    First I thought this my email but I mostly talk about DC’s Absolute Superman and DC’s Tangent. I didn’t mention Ram V
    Darren Warren Johnson made good DC Comics that in their own continuities. Wonder Woman: Dead Earth and Jurassic League(It is a Batman story)
    People would eat Batman even he in canon or out of canon.
    4:50 Like Alyssa Wong wouldn’t bother do research of Iron Fist History, Wu Ao Shi, her fisherman husband, Lei-Kung, *“His”* Army of Thunder(where Lei-Kung, a man, secretly trained all the female in K’un Lun) and Danny Rand having Knowledge of all Iron Fists before him.
    It seems that the editor Mark Paniccia is scare do his job when Alyssa Wong is writing.
    Even in Iron Fist 50th anniversary where Pei can use Iron Fist Chi powers again without any explanation and Pei was supposed to have that *Magic Floating Disk* from her *“Wayward Warrior story from Marvel's Voices Infinity comic.*
    What Jeremy Holt wrote doesn’t matter to Alyssa Wong?
    I find it hilarious because Jeremy holt is Asian and non binary just like Alyssa Wong and Alyssa Wong didn’t read what Jeremy holt wrote.
    Why hired Alyssa Wong if Alyssa Wong would not read any comics at all.
    It grinds my Gears that Alyssa Wong lies about being an Iron Fist fan in IGN interviews.
    God, Christopher priest respect Iron Fist’s past better than Alyssa Wong.
    Priest is the one who restored Danny Rand’s Iron Fist Power in Black Panther run in the 90’s.
    If any of you care about Iron Fist,(Including you Perch) who stole Danny Rand’s powers in the 90’s.
    Here another example
    Collin Kelly and Jackson Lanzing’s NYX, where Sophie Cuckoo say she knows Prodigy since Westchester/Xavier. And Sophie has an Old Photo of Prodigy, his New Mutants squad and Julian Keller, for Kamala to have in issue 4.
    But *Sophie Cuckoo was “dead” before Prodigy joined the Xavier school.*
    It would be literally impossible for Sophie to know and have a photo of someone she doesn’t know.
    Like Kelly and Lanzing could write Sophie knows Julian before she died because Julian was already at the Xavier School before Wind-Dancer joins in New Mutants 2003.
    I read, I research and I know my S*!t.
    And that my problem, is it too hard to do any research to respect the past?
    That what I say about PKJ’s Ghost Rider.
    Why can’t PKJ just use *Blazing Skull, an establish character from the 1940s -WW2* rather than making another Ghost Rider that everyone doesn’t know about.
    10:31 Would you say that to PKJ in person? You actually talk to him, Perch.
    Alyssa Wong wouldn’t listen to you Perch. Because Alyssa Wong is a hack.
    Kelly and Lanzing, they are complete fools. You already made video why their Captain America is badly written.
    Like you say before. It about name recognition. DC and Marvel are the only way writers can get popular. No matter how their writing is bad.
    PKJ is Great writer. If anyone ask. Alyssa Wong, Kelly and Lazing are bad writers.
    11:15 What about The Editors, Perch? What about Nick Lowe and Tom Breevort meddling their ideas how they want things in comic.
    11:57: That is why I want make animated adaptations instead. Look at your friendly neighborhood Spider Man has a comic that ties in their continuity.
    I would like in my animation.
    Sadly the animation industry is basically s*!t right now i don’t know I want to pitch my ideas.
    And it sad it is the only way to elevate other characters rather mindlessly consuming Batman and Spider-Man 24/7.
    13:00 You Finally giving respect for indies comics that they deserve.

    • @laverdadescatolica5
      @laverdadescatolica5 День тому

      Wait a minute, I always assumed that JURASSIC LEAGUE was part of a weird timeline. It’s NOT continuity.
      Or is it … like a Zur-En-Arrh situation? 😊

    • @commonsense5199
      @commonsense5199 День тому +1

      @ Jurassic League has their own continuity, as Dark Crisis Big Bang confirms that Jurassic League is *Earth 27*
      Also James Gunn announced that Jurassic League will be getting an animated movie adaptation.

    • @laverdadescatolica5
      @laverdadescatolica5 День тому

      @ this is so weird, but at least it’s not part of earth prime continuity.
      Are you a Miller/Batman OR Miller/Daredevil, guy/gal?? 😊

    • @commonsense5199
      @commonsense5199 День тому +2

      @@laverdadescatolica5 If it is Frank Miller. I am more Daredevil type. Frank Miller’s Batman was cool in Year One and DKR. But DKR 2 and after it is not good.

    • @laverdadescatolica5
      @laverdadescatolica5 День тому +2

      @ Dark Knight Strikes Again was AWESOME. I despise the artificial hatred hurled at it by mainstream audiences.
      The art was so DIFFERENT and COOL. It was basically a response to Post911 authoritarian governments. Dark Knight Returns was a reaction to proNukeMilitary Reaganism of 1980s.
      Dark knight Master race was a reaction to the racial politics of Obama/Trump of the 2010s. There is NO so-called Master Race. Everybody is subject to the same faults, though different for all, obviously.
      I guess the prime different is that Miller/Daredevil IS part of continuity, whereas Miller/Batman was NOT. Some parts are (i.e., Batman Year One, etc). Not all. Given that Daredevil is NOT rich, though, his stories feel more grounded and relatable than Batman’s unending supply of hi-tech weaponry. He has a deus ex Machina solution to everything. The plot BENDS toward HIM, whereas Miller/Daredevil bends TOWARD the plot.

  • @nickjanecke6688
    @nickjanecke6688 5 годин тому

    “Don’t be a dick to the people who are coming in after you and take these very valuable IPs and just wreck em”
    Tom King: “this is how we do it!” (Song plays)

  • @rammisalami
    @rammisalami День тому +2

    It would take less than a month to just read the fourth world comics. Ffs stop trying to reinvent the wheel and then getting mad at us when we point out that it’s been done before by someone better.

  • @InfamyOrDeath-__-
    @InfamyOrDeath-__- День тому +5

    It’s one of the great things about manga, there’s one continuity, you don’t have to worry about this.
    But it’s just so much better when a comic can stick to it, it’s why I really like Spawn. There’s not many long comic runs that have one continuity without a reboot.

  • @davidgantenbein9362
    @davidgantenbein9362 6 годин тому

    Only the fans are invested in the canon, because canon is just another word for what defines the character and made him have fans.
    So if a writer declares that canon doesn’t matter, what he actually means is that he doesn’t care about the existing fans. He just assumes they are all schmucks that will buy, because of how dumb they are. It’s an extremely adversarial place to start as a new writer on an existing title with a fandom and is not for nothing one of the first things critiqued by fans.
    So why do fans matter: they matter because they stay even if a story is bs. When I‘m a fan of something, I will keep hope up longer than I should and will give new talent a chance. With titles where I don’t care at all for canon (for me that’s everything DC as it changes every couple of years anyway, I will just stop reading way, way faster or not even try if the creatives look sus.
    So canon helps in binding customers and keeping sales higher than they deserve to be. BUT canon will become a trap if the canon becomes a negative. My example would be X-Men, a range of books that accumulated an extensive canon I don’t like and don’t want. All the canon I care about got phased out, retconned or distorted. The current year X-Men canon is the very reason I don’t buy any X-Men books anymore, it’s ruined for me.

  • @jimgillespie6109
    @jimgillespie6109 День тому +4

    Canon should be loose enough to give creators the freedom they need. However, it needs to be more akin to putty or clay and less like water. Why are old weird -- even goofy -- characters and concepts brought back while less silly -- and arguably more valid -- characters and concepts aren't? It's okay to bring back The Eraser, Kite-Man, and Polka Dot Man, but not the original Batwoman and Bat-Girl?

  • @brianbordon6419
    @brianbordon6419 19 годин тому

    Peter Parker uses AIM toothpaste. Don't you remeber the free promo comic?

  • @PaballoKobe-xh9ve
    @PaballoKobe-xh9ve День тому +2

    Humility is great if you're a loser. Its extremely annoying when you're winning

  • @spinningtornado4543
    @spinningtornado4543 11 годин тому

    If we were to use X-Men as an example, it was genuinely a better franchise when it respected *some levels of deep continuity* and didn't pull retcons out of its sorry ass.
    Because in X-Men, the retcons they allow tend to break not just a few years but entire decades of stories (continuity) and pretty much ruin characters through them.
    Many of you here can at least list one terrible retcon that unfolded for the X-Men franchise in more than 60 years of publication but I bet most of these were made during Krakoa where continuity was broken in ways that cannot be explained by having these X-Men be the same ones from 616 AKA the characters we've been following all along. The 616 X-Men continuity was broken for Krakoa and the one that is established by that era *wasn't even respected by its own writers* . They contradicted each other and even their own selves.
    Consistency is the basic trait of a successful franchise, especially when the price of the medium its published in, floppies, is constantly sky rocketing.
    Why buy issue #36 if issue #37 already retcons what it established?
    Why buy issue #65 if issue #70 is already rehashing the same plot ?

  • @dreigros
    @dreigros День тому +4

    Continuity is a constant recycle. Comics turned into a giant ouroboros. Better give us a good short story.

  • @PrivateCitizen84
    @PrivateCitizen84 День тому

    It's canon until its not profitable anymore, right. The motivation to change canon and continuity might not be for the best reasons. That said regardless of creative intentions? I look at the story objectively and ask if this is plausibly possible within the story. Ten years game time later from DAO to DAI game Qunari have female Warriors now. When ten years before they didn't. Did a war of famine happen for female recruitment? The females are still bigger than other races males and had years to train and hone skills from one game to the other. Judge Dredd one canon one continuity and almost one timeline. DC C&C ha ha don't come to DC for any of that. Which means take it or leave. So a lack of investment vs say Dredd.

  • @Zudovader
    @Zudovader День тому +1

    I think the smaller universes with 3 to 5 comics are perfect. Like the Transformers GI Joe stuff or Ultimate universe. Or the small coners of dc and marvel where the larger continuity isnt as important than issue to issue stuff and keeping characters consistent in every appearance.

  • @mariosakrivos2976
    @mariosakrivos2976 16 годин тому

    Contradictions exist in mythology because they are oral stories with regional peculiarities that are developed over centuries. Comics exist for just over half a century in an age of technology and accessibility to information, controlled by a single company. So I find the comparisons misleading.
    Comics are mostly issue #500 in a series which means you have to respect what’s come before you. Hank Pym has been redeemed how many times by now? And yet writers return to the abuser theme again and again only for someone to redeem him one more time and only for the next writer to ignore that.
    Many characters have switched bodies by now but at some point some arc will include an implant from issue 15 or something that for all intents and purposes should not be there. Is that too much pressure on the writer?
    Most examples Perch gave were not even about canon but what one might call “story/character bible”. And yet they mess up even that regularly.
    Ram V just completed a long arc on Detective that fit nowhere with what was going on on the other Batman title. No one addressed the other and they really don’t work well together as stories. It’s not even a question of canon in this case, they lack basic consistency.
    If we accept this mentality as presented by Ram V then comics are no longer serials but anthology stories - which is essentially how editors treat them. For older fans that would be heresy but it seems younger readers are mostly ok with it.

  • @clonegeek3317
    @clonegeek3317 День тому

    I read the Herb arc of Ranma last night among the 50ish chapters I read last night. I thought it was really good but I feel like there should have been more with the Musk Dynasty (I checked to see if they come back).
    Also read the Hinako Ninomiya arc and loved the fact that Ukyo, Shampoo and Kodachi were working together

  • @jamesmcclure3907
    @jamesmcclure3907 День тому

    Continuity? Not really a personal preference for me - I find it great when a clever use of something from the past is reintroduced and can make a story more interesting, but a lot of the time stuff like that can be forced or even blatantly contradictory to what I thought I understood, and then I’m suddenly taken out of the story flow and I don’t like that - I’m certainly not happy I paid for that.