I fly drones. The batteries we use to fly these racing drones at their high speeds are almost exclusively Lithium Ion batteries and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt these companies are not being transparent with you about Lithium Ion batteries and they know these batteries are not going to last long which is why they push them because they know they can quote you another couple thousand dollar battery very soon. Lithium Ion batteries are great for short spans of time because yes they have quick charging times, high output power and are lightweight, but they also drain VERY fast and if not cared for correctly damage VERY quickly. To make a comparison, Lithium Batteries are like sprinters, and lead acid/AGM batteries are like ultra marathon runners. Which one do you want and which one will serve you better for your application? Also do you have a couple thousand dollars to keep giving your car dealer to keep replacing that (sprinter) battery? Something to think about.
The li ion is supposed to be able to sit for long periods of time due to the inbuilt BMS module in the battery as most car they are fitted to aren't normally daily use vehicles . But they seem to fail really quickly regardless
Li-Ion batteries aren't just "sprinters", people seem to have forgotten that they are in mobile phones too and not just drones. Mobile phones consume less electricity than drones can and last longer before needing a recharge compared to drones.
I use a noco lifpo4 in my mower. No drain, no problems. Lifpo4 batteries are getting cheaper, I can get lifpo4 car batteries for the price of a premium lead acid these days. They are also coming with 5-10 year warranties. Dealer batteries are always going to be a bad deal.
I've only watched shorts from this channel before; but this video has me loving this guy so much if I lived closer I'd ask to work for him, start by sweeping the floors and cleaning up spills, dusting walls, cleaning windows and bathrooms ... :p Would be a huge contrast from working with horses which is the wife's passion to working with horsepower, my passion lol Good intent, communication, passion. Amazing cars that I wouldn't want to touch because they are worth more than my life. Super clean shop. Thanks for making videos to inform and entertain us, greatly appreciated
This is the tech that's right up my alley. The analogy I use are LED light bulbs. In theory an LED light bulb should last much longer than a regular light bulb. And LEDs do last longer. The problem is all of the power delivery electronics in that light bulb are made as cheap as possible in will eventually fail before the LEDs in the bulb fail. Your lithium ion battery system is pretty much the same way. The electronics in it generally will fail before the cells do. And even if they don't, the only reason to put that battery in is to get an advantage. To take advantage of it you have to sort of abuse the battery by discharging it and then recharging it only within certain parameters. Opportunity charging if you will, so coasting down it's charging and your regaining energy but you're not just charging it constantly when it's full like with a lead acid. This then lets the manufacturer say that they're saving this much power so it's this much MPG so this car gets this much better MPG... Total policy/politics math and doesn't really work out that way in the real world but it's what they do to meet the requirements. So you end up taking a superior technology, doing a poor representation of it and then abusing the hell out of it and of course it seems less reliable.
I switched my 2011 bmw 550i to lithium by xspower 3 years ago. For those who are familiar with the f10 5 series you know they eat batteries in as little as 2 years. My lithium’s are still perfect to this day and a replacement is always available from multiple sources because most car audio shops carry them. 12k for a lithium battery from Lamborghini is ridiculous, the owner could have gotten an xs power equivalent for less than 7 hundred. What a joke. My lithium has been discharged to 4volts 5 or 6 times and it still works perfectly. Plus my lithium weighs 9lbs vs 65lbs. There’s nothing wrong with switching to lighter lithium batteries. The super car lithium’s are over priced by greedy companies who think because you spent hundreds of thousands of dollars for a car they can rip you off for the parts. Im never going back to dinosaur lead acid/agm technology.
😂！🇹🇼 my multiple cars switched to Li-ion battery without too much trouble…only new Supra being a BMW system do overcharge and shutdown once! But just reprogrammed the peak Voltage protection is enough! …GR Yaris/86 is my other cars…old E30/Nissan 😎
I use XS power titan8 LTO batteries. Currently have 4 of them 120AH. With about 25000w of power lithium is the only way to go. Stereo at full tilt I draw a little over 2000a of current. Idle I never see anything below 12.5v anything above idle voltage sits steady at 14.8v I use the vehicle almost daily with these batteries for 3years. Hot summers above 100 degrees and winters below 0 when the truck is sitting it’s always on a Lithium battery charger. My point being when I had AGM I was constantly replacing batteries sometime I’d have a battery fail in less than year with the longest lasting maybe 3. And my voltage was never as stable as it is now. Just my experience
My urus 2022 battery died after getting start lights installed … Couldn’t charge it … so I bought a agm battery and was driving it like that for a few months without putting the conversion kit in … driving one day went into limp mode… bought another lithium battery still in limp mode … and that one died to … so now im currently gonna put conversion kit for other battery and go from there
OJ, how do the OEMs that do use lithium batteries handle the cold weather charging issue? In the Midwest winter temps can be way below freezing. Lithium cannot be charged in those conditions until they warm up, usually above 32 degrees F. What if you leave your Cayenne outside for a couple of days in the teens.....the low temp sensor in the BMS won't allow for charging. Has this issue come up yet?
Some batteries made for camping have built in heaters to get them up to an acceptable temperature so the is no reason why it can’t be done for a starter battery. We also need to differentiate between different chemistries of Lithium.
@@peterj5751 If the battery is too cold and has a built in heater, then yes it can be programmed to heat itself but in doing so it does not allow any incoming charge (and probably no outgoing current). But lets say it does allow outgoing current, how long can the battery power the vehicle on a cold start up with four seat heaters, heater/defroster, steering wheel heater, stereo, pcm, windshield wipers, lcd dash and headlights/taillights all running at the same time? It can't....if the vehicle is super cold, the battery has to heat up it's own internals while being housed essentially in an metal ice chest that is also frozen. At 0 degrees Fahrenheit, I'm guessing that may take over an hour.
@@georgecarousos6735 I’m not advocating for lithium batteries as such, merely pointing out that solutions exist for cold weather charging. I note that the freezing point limit on charging doesn’t some to discharging. No doubt the cold significantly reduces its capacity but it does so even more with lead acid. Your very cold weather just doesn’t play well with any battery tech, or perhaps it is more correct to say the no battery tech plays that well with your cold winter weather. Getting back to my main point though, the real issue I see is that the car manufacturers using this tech are all luxury brands are are using it as an opportunity to gouge their customers even more than usual for spare parts. In fact, given the very short reported lifespan in some cases I have to wonder if the manufacturer is deliberately setting things up to fail prematurely. There is no inherent flaw in the chemistry of lithium batteries that prevents them from surviving 10 times as many charging cycles as a lead acid battery as long as the are treated correctly. That is, the software controlling them is properly set up. Just a quick further thought, the alternator runs the car accessories once the car is running so this should be equal to a standard lead battery once started.
I don't understand why EVs and this kind of car battery has so much difficulty in being reliable. In fact, laptops uses this kind of batteries for about 30 years and most of the time it's perfectly fine. Nevertheless, this video is well made and very interesting!
Simply, because it’s not the same tech used in laptops 30yrs ago. Cars had automatic transmissions 30yrs ago but the ones in cars today don’t use the same tech…even though they’re both “automatic transmissions”.
They try to sell you on the lightweight aspect but it literally make zero difference in a daily driven car. Stick with AGM unless you got a dedicated racecar. Install battery, go to track, do what you need to do, then unplug it and store properly.
Do I own a Lamborghini? No. Am I very interested in retrofits and modifications? You bet your momma I am. Thanks for the information, love the channel.
You pretty well explained the "lack of maturity" within the protection technology these Li-ion batteries have. Not worth the my money, the number of lit hoops to jump through making a conversion is just keep myself on the fence.
The key here isn’t the technology but the way prestige manufacturers rip off their customers for spare parts. The technology isn’t anything like that expensive. A rule of thumb I would think is about double the cost of a high quality lead acid. The rest is cream on the top.
I think OJ is incorrect on Li battery discharging. Li batteries do not like being discharged below around 20% or being charged above around 80%. The specification ratings for Li batteries are determined that way. So if your car says 0% charge remaining its actually 20% and fully charged is actually 80%. Your phone is the same way, power tools, battery banks, laptops and tablets all the same. Now if you research this you will find articles saying this is a myth, however they all reference the end user never going below 20% or charging above 80%. Simply said the 100% that is advertised working capacity which is 60% of the battery, the safety and longevity factor is already worked in. This explanation was from an electrical engineer at work.
I thought that solid state batteries were the best promise for the future in cars. Li ion's ? I'd faint at the price. But then again who can afford the cars that need a 12v li ion battery ?
My own problem is with Miata batteries, the auto parts store has a good replacement policy. But I’ve put more batteries in my Miata than any other consumable part combined. They are all manufactured batteries that fail quickly. Every battery I buy gets replaced under warranty 3-5 times. I know the factory immobilizer sucks power, but I’m not hacking up pristine factory wiring over that. Antigravity is catching my attention, but at $700, that’s a lot of shitty battery replacements. I’m stuck in no man’s land. And yes, 30lbs in this car does make a performance improvement. Still though, ughhh!
What is your parasitic draw. We service lots of Miata’s and it not a normal to need to put 5 batteries in them. Do a proper draw test and if you are over 30mA (even with the immobilizer)look for your consumer. I bet that’s more likely your problem.
I can't believe they're putting such a large lithium ion battery in the cabin with the passengers without adequate protection against battery failure/rapid disassembly 🔥🎇😮
The battery itself is not that large. It's like having four cell phones in the car. And you're willing to have those in your pocket. The rest of it is an empty case with some electronics
Hi OJ, where are you going to dispose of the batteries after they reached their useful life. And did you see how they mine this mineral in Western Canada where they are raping the environment. I am not a tree hugger I love Eldorado’s with 500 cubes. I just wish they found something that was biodegradable and or easy to recycle and reuse. Great Video OJ Thank You 🙏
Yea the mining an disposal are a while other issue. It’s such a problem the dealer doesn’t even want the cores back… they won’t take them and say it’s up to you to figure out how to get rid of it.
What a dumb problem to have, but like you said this is what youd expect to have with new tech. Gotta have the growing pains or else the concept will fall on its face
You found wires that were AFTERMARKET, there's your smoking gun. It cracks me up watching these UA-camr's adding aftermarket parts on new vehicles and voiding their warranty's and then crying about it.
The battery was dead when it came it, car has low miles and parasitic draw was under spec. This is an epidemic of li ion battery’s we are seeing as a repair shop that services these vehicles as well as maintains exotic car collections.
Once I worked on furr-are-E's. The more the owner behaved in the manner of a jerk (all of them were what are now referred to as: white-male-toxic-macho-MAGA) the higher went the bill. Helped pay for my return to university.
The key here isn’t the technology but the way prestige manufacturers rip off their customers for spare parts. The technology isn’t anything like that expensive. A rule of thumb I would think is about double the cost of a high quality lead acid. The rest is cream on the top.
I fly drones. The batteries we use to fly these racing drones at their high speeds are almost exclusively Lithium Ion batteries and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt these companies are not being transparent with you about Lithium Ion batteries and they know these batteries are not going to last long which is why they push them because they know they can quote you another couple thousand dollar battery very soon.
Lithium Ion batteries are great for short spans of time because yes they have quick charging times, high output power and are lightweight, but they also drain VERY fast and if not cared for correctly damage VERY quickly. To make a comparison, Lithium Batteries are like sprinters, and lead acid/AGM batteries are like ultra marathon runners.
Which one do you want and which one will serve you better for your application? Also do you have a couple thousand dollars to keep giving your car dealer to keep replacing that (sprinter) battery? Something to think about.
This is how we feel. Feedback is OKAY from aftermarket 12v customers but OEM application has been dreadful…
I though you would be running li po (lithium polymer) batteries like us in the RC vehicles not li ion ?
I mean the drone guy I know about LiIon as I work for McLaren assist in the UK and also Porsche and the Li ion batteries are a nightmare
The li ion is supposed to be able to sit for long periods of time due to the inbuilt BMS module in the battery as most car they are fitted to aren't normally daily use vehicles . But they seem to fail really quickly regardless
Li-Ion batteries aren't just "sprinters", people seem to have forgotten that they are in mobile phones too and not just drones. Mobile phones consume less electricity than drones can and last longer before needing a recharge compared to drones.
I use a noco lifpo4 in my mower. No drain, no problems. Lifpo4 batteries are getting cheaper, I can get lifpo4 car batteries for the price of a premium lead acid these days. They are also coming with 5-10 year warranties. Dealer batteries are always going to be a bad deal.
I've only watched shorts from this channel before; but this video has me loving this guy so much if I lived closer I'd ask to work for him, start by sweeping the floors and cleaning up spills, dusting walls, cleaning windows and bathrooms ... :p
Would be a huge contrast from working with horses which is the wife's passion to working with horsepower, my passion lol
Good intent, communication, passion. Amazing cars that I wouldn't want to touch because they are worth more than my life. Super clean shop.
Thanks for making videos to inform and entertain us, greatly appreciated
Appreciate the kind words!
When you're the one feeling roasted because OJ says he's lazy😂 Thanks man... Love the videos!
This is the tech that's right up my alley. The analogy I use are LED light bulbs.
In theory an LED light bulb should last much longer than a regular light bulb. And LEDs do last longer. The problem is all of the power delivery electronics in that light bulb are made as cheap as possible in will eventually fail before the LEDs in the bulb fail.
Your lithium ion battery system is pretty much the same way. The electronics in it generally will fail before the cells do. And even if they don't, the only reason to put that battery in is to get an advantage. To take advantage of it you have to sort of abuse the battery by discharging it and then recharging it only within certain parameters. Opportunity charging if you will, so coasting down it's charging and your regaining energy but you're not just charging it constantly when it's full like with a lead acid. This then lets the manufacturer say that they're saving this much power so it's this much MPG so this car gets this much better MPG...
Total policy/politics math and doesn't really work out that way in the real world but it's what they do to meet the requirements.
So you end up taking a superior technology, doing a poor representation of it and then abusing the hell out of it and of course it seems less reliable.
The money-making motive of companies that sell them are what keeps these technologies from actually reaching their full potential.
thank you for this. Been on the fence about an Anti Gravity for my daily. this explains a lot.
I have told Mat Armstrong about your conversion He has the same problem with URUS Cheers John
I switched my 2011 bmw 550i to lithium by xspower 3 years ago. For those who are familiar with the f10 5 series you know they eat batteries in as little as 2 years. My lithium’s are still perfect to this day and a replacement is always available from multiple sources because most car audio shops carry them. 12k for a lithium battery from Lamborghini is ridiculous, the owner could have gotten an xs power equivalent for less than 7 hundred. What a joke. My lithium has been discharged to 4volts 5 or 6 times and it still works perfectly. Plus my lithium weighs 9lbs vs 65lbs. There’s nothing wrong with switching to lighter lithium batteries. The super car lithium’s are over priced by greedy companies who think because you spent hundreds of thousands of dollars for a car they can rip you off for the parts. Im never going back to dinosaur lead acid/agm technology.
You boys are the best! Great vid OJ👌🏼
Thanks so much!
FIRST!! LOVE YOU GUYS!! FMU BABYYYY!!!
😂！🇹🇼 my multiple cars switched to Li-ion battery without too much trouble…only new Supra being a BMW system do overcharge and shutdown once! But just reprogrammed the peak Voltage protection is enough! …GR Yaris/86 is my other cars…old E30/Nissan 😎
My Li-Ion batteries are part of my mild hybrid system; it still uses a lead acid battery for accessories ;)
Drive a '15 CR-Z
I use XS power titan8 LTO batteries. Currently have 4 of them 120AH. With about 25000w of power lithium is the only way to go. Stereo at full tilt I draw a little over 2000a of current. Idle I never see anything below 12.5v anything above idle voltage sits steady at 14.8v I use the vehicle almost daily with these batteries for 3years. Hot summers above 100 degrees and winters below 0 when the truck is sitting it’s always on a Lithium battery charger. My point being when I had AGM I was constantly replacing batteries sometime I’d have a battery fail in less than year with the longest lasting maybe 3. And my voltage was never as stable as it is now. Just my experience
My urus 2022 battery died after getting start lights installed … Couldn’t charge it … so I bought a agm battery and was driving it like that for a few months without putting the conversion kit in … driving one day went into limp mode… bought another lithium battery still in limp mode … and that one died to … so now im currently gonna put conversion kit for other battery and go from there
OJ, how do the OEMs that do use lithium batteries handle the cold weather charging issue? In the Midwest winter temps can be way below freezing. Lithium cannot be charged in those conditions until they warm up, usually above 32 degrees F. What if you leave your Cayenne outside for a couple of days in the teens.....the low temp sensor in the BMS won't allow for charging. Has this issue come up yet?
Yep. Very cold days are causing issues and they don’t like to be directly jumped
If you can afford those cars its not going to be outside.
Some batteries made for camping have built in heaters to get them up to an acceptable temperature so the is no reason why it can’t be done for a starter battery. We also need to differentiate between different chemistries of Lithium.
@@peterj5751 If the battery is too cold and has a built in heater, then yes it can be programmed to heat itself but in doing so it does not allow any incoming charge (and probably no outgoing current). But lets say it does allow outgoing current, how long can the battery power the vehicle on a cold start up with four seat heaters, heater/defroster, steering wheel heater, stereo, pcm, windshield wipers, lcd dash and headlights/taillights all running at the same time? It can't....if the vehicle is super cold, the battery has to heat up it's own internals while being housed essentially in an metal ice chest that is also frozen. At 0 degrees Fahrenheit, I'm guessing that may take over an hour.
@@georgecarousos6735 I’m not advocating for lithium batteries as such, merely pointing out that solutions exist for cold weather charging. I note that the freezing point limit on charging doesn’t some to discharging. No doubt the cold significantly reduces its capacity but it does so even more with lead acid. Your very cold weather just doesn’t play well with any battery tech, or perhaps it is more correct to say the no battery tech plays that well with your cold winter weather.
Getting back to my main point though, the real issue I see is that the car manufacturers using this tech are all luxury brands are are using it as an opportunity to gouge their customers even more than usual for spare parts. In fact, given the very short reported lifespan in some cases I have to wonder if the manufacturer is deliberately setting things up to fail prematurely. There is no inherent flaw in the chemistry of lithium batteries that prevents them from surviving 10 times as many charging cycles as a lead acid battery as long as the are treated correctly. That is, the software controlling them is properly set up.
Just a quick further thought, the alternator runs the car accessories once the car is running so this should be equal to a standard lead battery once started.
Another good one OJ, thanks
Glad you enjoyed it
I don't understand why EVs and this kind of car battery has so much difficulty in being reliable. In fact, laptops uses this kind of batteries for about 30 years and most of the time it's perfectly fine. Nevertheless, this video is well made and very interesting!
Simply, because it’s not the same tech used in laptops 30yrs ago. Cars had automatic transmissions 30yrs ago but the ones in cars today don’t use the same tech…even though they’re both “automatic transmissions”.
They try to sell you on the lightweight aspect but it literally make zero difference in a daily driven car. Stick with AGM unless you got a dedicated racecar. Install battery, go to track, do what you need to do, then unplug it and store properly.
Tried lithium in my Harleydavidson, only lasted 8 months. A friend had the same experience. I know it's not a exotic car, but same issue.
Do I own a Lamborghini? No.
Am I very interested in retrofits and modifications? You bet your momma I am.
Thanks for the information, love the channel.
Right on!
You pretty well explained the "lack of maturity" within the protection technology these Li-ion batteries have. Not worth the my money, the number of lit hoops to jump through making a conversion is just keep myself on the fence.
I use them for car audio. 😊
The key here isn’t the technology but the way prestige manufacturers rip off their customers for spare parts. The technology isn’t anything like that expensive. A rule of thumb I would think is about double the cost of a high quality lead acid. The rest is cream on the top.
Sodium ion batteries will possibly replace these at a fraction of a cost.
Moore’s law applies to batteries as well.
Tech: troublesome, expensive, complicated, and hazardous applies to this situation. Leaves out unnecessary.
Sodium will replace both in the future.
😅are you saying that because you tested them or because youtube said so?
@@brucey5585 No just common sense as they ramp up R&D into the technology to improve the safety of batteries. But I am sure you know better!
I think OJ is incorrect on Li battery discharging. Li batteries do not like being discharged below around 20% or being charged above around 80%. The specification ratings for Li batteries are determined that way. So if your car says 0% charge remaining its actually 20% and fully charged is actually 80%. Your phone is the same way, power tools, battery banks, laptops and tablets all the same. Now if you research this you will find articles saying this is a myth, however they all reference the end user never going below 20% or charging above 80%. Simply said the 100% that is advertised working capacity which is 60% of the battery, the safety and longevity factor is already worked in. This explanation was from an electrical engineer at work.
I see a big opportunity by someone just adapting power tools batteries lol.
Its a few more inches, but its gonna fit.....
One day we will all link our cars together to make a supercomputer to run advanced simulations of the universe. 🤣
No idea how I missed this video. YT fix your notifications!!!
I thought that solid state batteries were the best promise for the future in cars. Li ion's ? I'd faint at the price. But then again who can afford the cars that need a 12v li ion battery ?
My own problem is with Miata batteries, the auto parts store has a good replacement policy. But I’ve put more batteries in my Miata than any other consumable part combined. They are all manufactured batteries that fail quickly. Every battery I buy gets replaced under warranty 3-5 times. I know the factory immobilizer sucks power, but I’m not hacking up pristine factory wiring over that. Antigravity is catching my attention, but at $700, that’s a lot of shitty battery replacements. I’m stuck in no man’s land. And yes, 30lbs in this car does make a performance improvement. Still though, ughhh!
What is your parasitic draw. We service lots of Miata’s and it not a normal to need to put 5 batteries in them. Do a proper draw test and if you are over 30mA (even with the immobilizer)look for your consumer. I bet that’s more likely your problem.
if the cells are still good, maybe it's a good way to buy cells for cheap to build packs, go to car dealers and take they failed batteries
So basically just like a standard battery it needs a tender or drive it daily. You’d figure someone would have google to figure this out.
did you say 12 k?
That’s the quote the dealer gave him. He towed it right to us and we did it for around 1/10th of the price!
My 2014 Infiniti q50 hybrid needs a new hv battery I was quoted $22000 lol
Thats why you dont buy hybrid anything
I use lithium for car audio and there the only way to go.
I can't believe they're putting such a large lithium ion battery in the cabin with the passengers without adequate protection against battery failure/rapid disassembly 🔥🎇😮
You always assume manufacturers should know best… time will tell!
The battery itself is not that large. It's like having four cell phones in the car. And you're willing to have those in your pocket.
The rest of it is an empty case with some electronics
You're talking about legacy automakers.! That should say it all. Those companies use cheap lithium batteries and that's why they're failing .
Comment for the algorithm
Is that a Tesla logo on your shirt or just a pen in your Pocket?
One of my pocket tools, a flashlight clip
Hi OJ, where are you going to dispose of the batteries after they reached their useful life. And did you see how they mine this mineral in Western Canada where they are raping the environment. I am not a tree hugger I love Eldorado’s with 500 cubes. I just wish they found something that was biodegradable and or easy to recycle and reuse. Great Video OJ Thank You 🙏
Yea the mining an disposal are a while other issue. It’s such a problem the dealer doesn’t even want the cores back… they won’t take them and say it’s up to you to figure out how to get rid of it.
What a dumb problem to have, but like you said this is what youd expect to have with new tech. Gotta have the growing pains or else the concept will fall on its face
❤
Algorithm comment 👍
My ‘24 Prius Prime 12v lithium battery died in 3 months
You found wires that were AFTERMARKET, there's your smoking gun. It cracks me up watching these UA-camr's adding aftermarket parts on new vehicles and voiding their warranty's and then crying about it.
The battery was dead when it came it, car has low miles and parasitic draw was under spec. This is an epidemic of li ion battery’s we are seeing as a repair shop that services these vehicles as well as maintains exotic car collections.
Once I worked on furr-are-E's. The more the owner behaved in the manner of a jerk (all of them were what are now referred to as: white-male-toxic-macho-MAGA) the higher went the bill. Helped pay for my return to university.
If a lithium battery ever in a car I buy, I'm pulling it out. Never trusted them.
Do you have a cellphone or a laptop? These uses this kind of battery.
@alexandrecouture2462 yes but not in my car.
@@scottmaz4063And what are you going to put in dummy?
Don"t ask for likes don"t say watch to the end plzzz
Cronilism strikes again
The key here isn’t the technology but the way prestige manufacturers rip off their customers for spare parts. The technology isn’t anything like that expensive. A rule of thumb I would think is about double the cost of a high quality lead acid. The rest is cream on the top.