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My Biggest Problem With Tengu Format (#1)
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- Опубліковано 19 сер 2024
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Pinning this for clarification because I'm still getting messages about this.
I did not make this video to say Tengu is a bad format or that you should not play Tengu. I made this video to discuss a frustrating thing about the current meta caused by deck building and to ask the people playing to figure out a solution to fix it. My hope is that this video will isolate the problem, spread awareness, and hopefully inspire more creative deck-building.
Damn, that before/during/after counterplay I did no think about!
Great video Sunny well said and I share the same sentiment with the counter play of tengu, needing preemptive stops leads to such high variance, frustrating aspect of it for sure
Fantastic video! The pre/direct/post timing classifcation is a great way to talk about cards, and formats as a whole.
In answer to your question at the end about "fixes", this might not be the answer that you're looking for but for me it was to become the problem rather than solve it. Or, at the very least be aware of this dynamic, and find the way to best abuse this.
For example, in Tengu I have strictly played Agent for years with the now "standard" lists that are increasingly taking over as more attention is getting drawn back to the format (the usual Agent/Chaos line up, plus 3 Orange, 3 MST in the main, only 2 Traps (Dustshoot and TT), and 3 Decree in the side - for exactly the reasons you discussed).
I think catching onto this was what helped me to have an edge in build and gameplay (like proactively and aggresively using MSTs), but now that edge has dwindled as it's all become standard/the norm. From here though, I don't really know what to do to maintain this edge - and I've been locked into Edison.
On Edison, as you said because most counterplay is post, I've moved to Dragon Turbo because it feels just so, so unfair when the whole format is centralised on Caius-like popping, and you don't give the opponent an opportunity to have counterplay when you Heavy+Debris+Instant / OTK with a Koa'ki up etc.
Again, really appreciate the video - it's articulated something I was really struggling to put into words. Looking forward to more of these podcasts!
Another thing about Tengu and consistency, there are so many bricks. Drawing two Tour Guide, two Reborn Tengu, or heaven forbid three of them, etc. is extremely bad. There are loads of must-run extender like Sangan, plant tuners and Shine Balls that can clog your hand easily. You have to draw well for your deck to work.
There's a 0.2% risk you draw 3 Reborn Tengu so yeah, god forbid drawing that or using it as an example when making your case of "you have to draw well for your deck to work". Also, how is drawing two Tour Guide bad? You have two super strong summons to put pressure on the board. Especially since Tour Guide often gets countered by Veiler or Warning so having a backup is very good.
Cards from the sky is such a great card for shine balls its gotten me plenty of outs when ive used it
Great video, it’s always awesome to hear deep thoughts about the fundamentals of the of the game. I think you should post more content like this!
"it means its very much a game of trading resources, with clear back and forth through a +1 and -1 game"
Yeah who tf would want to play a format like that... 🤦♂️
Yep
I haven't watched the video yet but warning in the thumbnail seems appropriate. Hate that card!!!!
Luckily there is warning. I prefer it over oppression
@@TenguFormatItalia True, but it's not like every deck can run oppression, whereas Warning is pretty much main decked 99% of the time.
@@mulesa101 I always prefer solemn it can negate only one time. Oppression is not only one time
@@TenguFormatItalia sure, but solemn is a counter trap. not doing much to counter that unless you have a solemn. whereas oppression you can deal with mst or dust.
Yeah I feel similar to your core argument. Edison feels a lot more reactive where you stop plays after they happen. The downside to that is when you run out of answers or don’t have one, and you get blown out by something like brain control into a big push which can feel terrible, where as in tengu you have the solemns and veilers to stop huge pushes more often. I’ve had times where DAD is dropped on me in Edison and there was nothing I could do unless I randomly had a dd crow to control their dark count, it feels terrible
Tengu then feels more proactive where you need the immediate stop to a lot of problem cards as you mentioned. There are strictly more answers with a larger card pool, but those often feel less fair for both parties. Agent player isn’t happy when his hyperion gets warninged, and opponent doesn’t necessarily feel good when all he did was open warning, but he needed that warning to not get clapped by hyperion.
It’s basically up to you which you like more, along with card pool and best decks in each format
Yeah I agree with this.
This type of gameplay flow is what I was trying to describe when I discussed using smaller plays to bait bigger plays before using your best plays, which is why currently I prefer to play Edison.
Getting blown out by brain and dad does feel bad, and something I forgot to mention is that I think the tengu blow outs like reborn + dark hole are a much better combination than just brain control. Brain control is definitely more powerful in stealing/reversaling games than reborn or dark hole imo.
Good video. I love the categorization of Pre-Timing, Direct, and Post-Timing and how Edison Format and Goat Format are good formats because it's more Post-Timing. However, I'd like to add something about Tengu Plant Format, while I do agree that you need to main deck direct timing cards like Warning and Veiler specifically to counter many of the great cards in Tengu plant, there are much more post timing cards in Tengu than you might think and those are main deck engines. To name a few, Plants have access to both Trishula and Scrap Dragons as an answer to established monsters as Post-Timing cards. Though they require 2 or more cards to make. Heros still have Miracle Fusion to make the Shining to out Hyperion. You can probably figure out the rest now that Main deck engines were dismissed as Post-Timing class of examples.
Secondly, one of the issues with categorization, is missing the details (which I fall victim to myself). In your example with Fossil Dyna + backrow to stop agents, I find that while it is true that Agents have few outs to out Fossil Dyna + backrow, the odds of opening the out to Fossil Dyna + backrow is smaller than the odds of having the odd to Fossil Dyna + backrow. This includes 1st Turn TGU into Leviathan dragon or in some cases: 1st Turn Hyperion (though more rare).
Thirdly, if we get into these categorizations such as Pre-Timing, Direct, and Post-Timing (Pre and Direct orient being bad, and Post-Timing- orient formats being good), we get into this weird territory where player might dictate the playability of a format based on those categories. And I don't think it's a good way to go because it's like saying "Having the option to have direct timing cards to out said cards makes a format worst because I can draw direct timing cards after the fact." To reiterate my position simply, Having options to prevent cards from hitting the board, prevent cards from gaining too much value, directly deal with board after is a whole lot better than dealing the board only after it's done its job. For example, I don't want to have Dark Armed Dragon use his effect 3 times+ when a Veiler / Warning says no to that. I also don't want a Brionac to pitch 4 for game in the Edison example. It's much better than, I deal with Brionac and Dark Armed the next turn because I have Smashing Ground or a monster I can summon to beat over said monsters.
That's all I want to add for now before I head to Vegas for the weekend. Whoever you are, you seem to have a lot of charisma to attract big names to your comment section and valid points. Hope to see more content from you in the future.
Yeah absolutely. I didn't want it to seem like Tengu has no post-timing counterplay. It's just that the number of cards in a deck is finite which means if you include direct or pre-timing responses, then it trades off with post-timing counterplay because it's zero-sum. Since I prefer post-timing gameplay much more, it frustrates me when I have inactive cards and an inability to answer a board. This doesn't always happen of course, but it happens more often when you have to include hand traps, and warnings and thunder king.
For the second point, I'm afraid I don't really understand it. Could you please clarify it for me?
Regarding the third point, I think I disagree with using timing as a reference for format enjoyment. I have played every format between 2002-2014, and 2022-Current, and I think even when viewing current formats, people in general want there to be post-timing counterplay. And current is largely dictated by direct or pre-timing counterplay. For sure I don't think that having pre-timing or direct-timing cards makes a format bad. Tengu has a greater focus on pre and direct-timing compared to the formats before it, but I still enjoy Tengu far more than most of the formats before it (but that's mostly due to broken win conditions for older formats). The worst current formats in terms of playability are often the ones with very little post-timing counterplay. In my experience, most people have told me they don't really want to play against the go-first-win decks like Drytron or Superheavy where you just have to have Droll or Maxx C or lose. I've also personally agreed with this as I feel when viewing my favorite formats of all time (Edison, Tear, HAT) they tend to have post-timing counterplay. So even if pre and direct-timing don't make a format bad, I do think it's a good reference to use post-timing counterplay as a prerequisite to predict how much you will enjoy a format. It's been a good reference for me after I made the realization about counterplay timing.
Very interesting dynamic that you highlighted here on the types of counterplay. I think it extends beyond retro formats too. People who play current yugioh often complain about cards like dimension shifter and TCBOO. But people don’t mind when cards have a quick effect to bounce and float when they leave the field.
One style of card design allows both players to at least feel like they’re playing the game.
Good video, sunny! ☀️
Great vid, love the depth
Tengu has its problems. But there are more fun enjoyable decks that actually have a backbone. Rather than the 'other decks' in Edison that just splash Hamster and Caius.
Let's not kid ourselves and detract from the fact that Tengu also has its own toolbox cards that are splashed into almost every meta relevant deck. Literally Tour Guide + Tengu package or just the obscene amount of 3x Thunder King Rai-Oh as well.
As someone tryna enter tengu with hero, my entire locals has been starting to run tengu locals so having this type of discussion is really interesting from an outsider perspective
Long winded person solidarity. People seem to think if you're not speaking in tweet-sized chunks you're seething nowadays.
The counterplay timing theory really helped me realize why I've been enjoying other games like Shadowverse Evolve as much as I enjoy Edison and why modern Yugioh is completely intolerable for me now. Answering threats on your own initiative just feels better than having to always have the answer at point of resolution. It's also not nearly as soul crushing when your threats are outed on the opponent's turn since there's a baseline expectation of the player with priority being able to make gameplay progress.
It's interesting to hear your comment on Decree, because I also really despise the card, but I feel like it has a weird reputation due to YGO players deciding they hate Traps now lol. Personally one of the things I hate about Decree is that, in a format where playing Traps is really important, playing Decree generally makes you give up on playing them. So you're motivated to play traps b/c those are the good interaction in a format, but you have to give them up to play Decree, so you're making your deck dependent on finding the card to make up for that weakness. So it feels miserable to play when you DON'T find it, it feels miserable when you find it and opponent immediately MSTs it, it feels miserable when you find it and your opponent is also on a low trap decree deck... and then, when you win, it STILL feels miserable because your opponent generally just couldn't play half the cards they had on board so it's like you didn't play the game. It's incredibly frustrating to lose to because one single floodgate ruins can just blank your entire hand, even if you're not on a heavy trap deck if you get unlucky. I don't think it encourages gameplay that's reasonable or fun at all, imo there's much more fair ways to give formats blowouts to beat Trap decks setting 4 or something.
Spoken like a true infernity player on how everyone should just cut Maxx c 😏
exactly! Everyone remove maxx c from your 55!
Okay, hold up. I didn't say anyone should cut maxx c lol. I just said it's not a card you main 3 copies like people who don't play tengu think.
Nice vid sunny hope to see u soon
my goat
I agree with a lot of the points you made in this video. However, I have to disagree about what you said regarding Royal Decree. I don't play very much Tengu Plant format these days, but I play a ton of Edison and I think Decree is a necessity. 2 of the 3 best decks (Blackwings and Vayu Turbo) both play a ton of traps and tend to play Royal Oppression. If Decree wasn't a card, I think they would dominate even more than they already do. I'd love to hear your thoughts if you have anything to add that you didn't address in the video :)
Modern or Tengu??? Would love to hear your thoughts!
Still better than Edison
Why ?
PS: Lava Golem is busted in Tengu
Hot Take: Dragon Ruler Plants format is the best format
Hey sorry im a bit late to this party just saw this video. Just so this isnt a big youtube comment fiasco id love to discuss this with you in call if interested. I actually wrote a novel responding to this video then realized its probably a lot better to speak with you directly. Just so I don't put a book in your comments. Would love to connect feel free to reach out :). Honestly Id love to do a video discussing these points.
Hi Sunny
Bro talks about "post timing" when Tengu is literally the format with Dark Hole and 3 MST lololol
I agree with your points, that said i think there is often more back and forth and the +1s and -1s matters more than many of the haters give the format credit for.
Yeah absolutely. +1s and -1s and trading for sure matters in Tengu and I didn't want it to seem like it doesn't. I just wanted to say that a lot of games have cards that suffer from inactivity which means that you end up winning or losing much harder than you should be based on number of actual cards held.
Dude Infernity and Glad Beasts are good in Tengu idk why you ignore them
I think your 3 MST take is very weird when you also complain about Royal Decree as a card. Also, since Heavy exist in both formats I consider 3 MST a lot more healthy. In Edison you can either set 1 or 2, it's 50/50 that you get punished no matter what you do. In Tengu it's way more likely that they have MST, which means you can focus on calculating the risk of going -1 vs the more likely option of not having a response. MST being at 1 makes it a lot worse imo. ALSO in Tengu you can have Maxx C and Veiler meaning you don't get as blown out even if they MST your backrow.
I may not have explained myself super well, but 3 MSTs is not a reason that Decree is not a problem. Often times when a deck is boarding decree, they either board out of backrow, or started with minimal backrow in the first place making decree some of the only targets for MST. I personally do not think it is good gameplay to side 3 MSTs or leave 3 MSTs in your deck exclusively to hit one Decree just so you don't lose and this gameplay shows itself most often in T.G. games postboard. T.G. Does not have efficient ways to answer decree with engine. Maybe they can try and get to Wonder Magician as fast as possible, but your opponent can also streamline all of their defense to answer the Wonder Magician since it's the only engine out. This makes T.G. side MST just to out Decree which just leads to drawing the out gameplay, and I really do not enjoy that type of gameplay.
Regarding blowouts, it would only work if the blowout were the more likely probability. This is because I agree that your opponent is more likely to have MST, which means that playing conservatively is often not the best play because you will lose your defense to MST and get destroyed by a tempo push. But this means that you are essentially forced into playing into heavy and then making them have it. I have never enjoyed making them have it gameplay because it leads to higher variance in games by conceding if they actually have the blowout. I don't really understand how MST being at 1 would make this issue worse.
@@SunnyYGO I get this Decree take completely. I play Nekroz in retro and I know my friends playing any trap deck hate siding in MST just for my Royal Decree, but they have to or I turn off 1/3rd of their deck. But to be fair at the same time I kinda need something like Decree or Denko to not lose to trap decks, if they flip Mistake thats a floodgate to me, but at the end of the day one player is gonna have it rough. A lot of the side deck in Yugioh allows one player to play the game at the expense of the other player having zero fun, and I feel its been like that for most of Yugiohs history.
@@SunnyYGO I didn't mean to say Decree is not a problem because of 3 MST. But how is it not much more of a problem with 1 MST? You can't use Dust tornado to get rid of Decree so then you have to use Twister (literally unusable if opponent doesn't have Decree compared to MST that can also be used in EP on MST, Book etc.) You can use effect monsters but the opponent can Veiler those and then you can't get rid of the Decree. It's illogical to both complain about Decree AND 3 MST in my mind, 3 MST counters Decree better than 1 MST.
If the problem is that you get destroyed by a tempo push that's the real problem you have, not 1 or 3 MST + Heavy. You can still "get destroyed" by a MST punish or a Heavy punish in Edison, it's just more random and harder to predict since it's a 50/50 there.
Also what kind of defence against Wonder Magician are you envisioning when people side in Decree? You don't really want to keep Veiler against T.G. in g2, g3 so that exact scenario you're describing sounds weird. Heroes have Spark, T.Gs have synchros and GK have Descendant to deal with Decree but they side MST too because it sucks not being able to deal with the card. Either way, I just don't see how Decree is a Tengu format problem.
@@JankYGOforgot Veiler was Edison legal
@@JankYGO I said in my video that I think decree is a problem in Edison as well. But in my opinion, decree is more problematic in Tengu than Edison for two main reasons:
1) In-Engine Removal
2) Format Speed & The Meta Decks
1) The meta decks of Edison play more natural outs to random floodgates like decree. I agree that no one plays dust tornado and twister to stop decree, but that's because you don't have to play those cards to kill decree at all. Part of why floodgates are so weak in general in Edison is because Edison is a very low power format, which incentivizes playing generic spot removal. It is a requirement for a deck in Edison to function to main deck generic spot removal which is why so many decks play cards like Ryko or Caius. And it's not just those cards. Lyla, Celestia, Spark, Breaker, etc. All decks will play non trap removal because backrow is so prevalent in the format which naturally counters floodgates by collateral damage. Effect veiler is not a legal card in Edison so it doesn't stop those monster effects, but even if it were, it wouldn't matter for reason 2.
2) The actual meta of Tengu has every single deck boarding multiple decrees while playing minimal traps except the actual trap decks like Hero or T.G. or GK. This is because the meta decks and power level of Tengu is higher meaning it's faster and thus they can abuse a push more effectively than an Edison deck. If you look at the Edison meta, there are no decks that can board decree or attempt to board decree except for LS builds, Dragon Turbo, and Fairy. There have been experiments before with Decree in Diva Hero or Blackwing, but have fallen out of favor because it ends up being an inconsistent strategy. The reason is because there's too many in-engine out every deck has to floodgates, and decks outside of LS builds and Dragon Turbo typically struggle to abuse the window the decree is active. Is there a chance the Edison community is building wrong and all of the top decks should play decree? Maybe, but I think it's more likely that decree just isn't the best strategy to deal with the Edison meta and that's due to the high amount of spot removal and low power. At the very least, it's clearly a substantially smaller percentage of the Edison format meta than Tengu format.
Regarding comment 2, the tempo push problem I described matters more in Tengu again for 1) Counterplay Timing and 2) Format Speed. If a tempo push actually occurs in Edison, it's often not a very high power push, which means it's very easy to stabilize with backrow or spot removal. I feel like the other stuff I said in the last comment about 3 MST being worse still applies also. Because the card at 3 is MST, it means that you are deincentivized to set 1 ever because it is more likely to be MST than Heavy. This just means the risk assessment is skewed in favor of playing into heavy. Even if we ignore format power and speed, just because something is predictable, does not make it better. Even if you know there is a chance of getting blown out by 3 MST, that doesn't mean it would be better than not having the MST blowout 2/3 times, just as it wouldn't be better in my opinion for there to be 3 Decrees legal as opposed to 2, or even better 0.
Regarding wonder magician, the scenario I described doesn't happen post board. I just haven't seen many replays where wonder magician is successfully summoned so I thought that defense like veiler would be a problem even though it's obviously boarded out. You're right about that, I completely agree. But T.G. still clearly struggles with Decree because it's easy to die while you find access to wonder magician since you need two T.G.s to even start to search the pieces to make the wonder magician.
>no one plays trunade or cold wave
lmao dragon turbo is busted
Oppression is WAY worse than Decree btw, but yeah I agree Decree is almost as bad as IO
There may be differences of judgement but for me it remains the most balanced format for the cards it has