Fantasy Author Reacts to EPIC THE MUSICAL (Thunder Saga)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 10 січ 2025
- Yeah, I think this might be my favorite musical...
I am a fantasy author with about 7 books under my belt and my debut novel, Strong at the Breaking, being published within the next few months. I am going to be breaking down Epic from a writing, characterization, structure, and worldbuilding perspective.
Animatics in Order:
Suffering - • Suffering | EPIC: The ...
Different Beast - • Different Beast / EPIC...
Scylla - • SCYLLA | Epic: The Mus...
Mutiny - • Mutiny animatic | Epic...
Thunder Bringer - • Thunder Bringer | EPIC...
Unrelated Belgian techno anthem, Pump Up The Jam - • Technotronic - Pump Up...
Ink's Just speedrunning an entire reaction series and we're here for it.
Real
Real i love that
It’s genuinely so nice to not have to wait weeks to months for a new video.
Real, plus it helps with the wait for /other/ reactions I'm following lmao
Winions be eatin this week
I love the crazy spiral Ink went through at 28:15 "Six heads! Six torches! The prophesy, the sacrifice! OMG! They're all gonna DIE!" 🤣🤣🤣 Matched the music perfectly.
Yes! Just the real time realization being fully vocalized was so perfect and fun to watch. lol
"This one's called, uhh.. Mutiny. Oh no, Mutiny!" 😭 I love your reactions so much, man. Also impressed by how fucking quickly you realized the six heads/six men/six torches thing!
Odysseus: "Eurylochus, light up 5 torches."
Eurylochus: "Captain, it was me who opened the Wind Bag..."
Odysseus: ".....Eurylochus, light up *_6_* torches
😂😂😂😂😂😂
That’s seems true honestly
I fully believe that if Eurylochis didnt confess about the windbag, Odysseye would have sailed through was thout torches and left which men died up to fate.
But aince his brother in law basiclally revealed all their suffering post wind bag was his fault, he was willing to lose 5 men if he could guarantee Eurylochus was the sixth.
@@Blitzwaffen nnnnno that's silly and kinda not at all ody, he def wanted to sac eury because of the bag but the other five were absolutely needed. people keep giving slack to ody for this but like there was no way to pass with out people dying to ether scylla or Poseidon like this is not at all monstrous or morally black
@@DevilSpade You missed what I said. I said: had Eurylochus NOT mentioned the bag. Odysseus wouldn't have requested the torches, he might have even tried to fight Scylla, much like the Sirens. Leaving the end of his men to chance/fate since Scylla always has a cost to pay when passing her territory. (By the way I said fight and not kill because Scylla was immortal in the original legends.)
Specifically because Eurylochus DID bring up the wind bag, Odysseus requested the torches, considering Eury, as his second, would not only help pass the torches out, but probably carry one himself believing that Odysseus had forgiven him.
Ahhh, watching someone get absolutely confused by Suffering on a first time watch will never get old....
I'm waiting for the "tf u mean 20?!" in Leyendary
when i showed to my boyfriend he was like "why the f is his wife in the water?"
51:09 Zeus is never mention by name in epic, he is such a big figure that everyone just knows is him
"He Who Must Not Be Named"
yeah, when the story needs to clue the audience in on who Zeus is really all they need to do is play thunderclaps, hell Zeus doesn't even talk about himself with anything aside from his epithet as the thunder bringer, that's all people need to know to know who he is
@@Nisselak More like "He Who NEED Not be Named."
@@Nisselak "He Who Does Not Need to be Named"
Athena later calls him “Father, God King”, but that’s not the same.
I LOVE your read on Ody. Like yes he is our sad, wet, puppy-dog eyed wife-guy. BUT he is also a problematic princess who has So Many Issues. So many people have Main Character Defender syndrome when it comes to Ody, not realizing you can still like AND sympathize with their silly lil selfish dude.
I absolutely adore Odysseus as a protagonist. He has many many issues, but he is so well written and compelling, flaws and all!
@JacobPenrodWrites I also love any comment that starts with 'DON'T HATE ME BUT-' Classic. It has never once in the history of humankind fully worked, but gods above and below do we try anyway xD
😂
Just because someone loves their partner does not make them a good person. So many people could avoid heartbreak if they realized this.
Exactly! I was about to write a comment like this but thought there might be one already - and here it is ^^
I agree with you both here. =)
Suffering: A song of past romance
Scylla: The sacrafice of man
Mutiny: protryals of betryal
Thunderbringer: And a brother's final stand
the last two lines are to mutiny 💀
@@ghostygaming7829a brothers final stand? Eurylochus(brother) dies to Zeus(his final stand).
@@ghostygaming7829Jorge said both Mutiny and Thunder Bringer could apply to Brothers Final Stand
@@2nd_Place7 Kind of? In mutiny we see Eurylochus's final stand, his final conflictm while in Thundebringer he has just accepted his death and doesn't really take a stand, he just dies. Both interpretation work either way but I prefer the latter
@@2nd_Place7Imo it can be attributed to both, + both songs happen right after another
Mutiny is Eurylochus' last act of defiance against Odysseus, and Thunder Bringer, well... his last act in general.
im so happy u instantly picked up on the last part of mutiny as a suicide attempt :,) so many people think eurylochus was being ignorant or stupid, but if u just LISTEN he repeats it over and over "im tired" "how much longer must i go about my life like this". this is the same man who warned odysseus not to mess with the gods, the same man who avoids risk. he knew exactly what he was doing, but like u said - theres a survival instinct and moment of realization once it finally happens and u snap out of that headspace. he wasnt caught off guard, he just snapped out of it. i love him sm hes just a different side of the coin and it breaks my heart everytime :(
Watching reactions to Thunder Saga always makes me so annoyed cuz I feel like 90% of people I've seen keep hating on Eurylochus and think he's stupid or hypocritical. I can understand disliking him for opening the wind bag but also it's not like Poseidon wasn't thinking of killing Oddyseus and his crew beforehand. Eurylochus just sped up the process, most likely (still a bad choice but who hasn't made awful choices in this musical).
I find it interesting that i think a lot of your reads on the characters and motivations are actually way closer to the actual illiad. Your read on Odysseus is spot on for the original where as I feel Jorge's romance angle is intentional and real.
That is so fascinating to me because I know NOTHING about The Odyssey!
@@JacobPenrodWrites Could be because the Odyssey is like the groundwork for The Hero's Journey form of storytelling, especially of the Western kind, and everyone is inspired by previous writers who can trace their inspiration chain back to Odyssey, all of the western fantasy genre goes back to it.
@@syedshakaibanwar2698 This!!! I wanted to say something similar, The Illiad and The Odyssey are groundwork for most of what we see today for fantasy.
@@JacobPenrodWrites i agree with this. its like you aren't picking Jorge's mind but Homer's
@@syedshakaibanwar2698 not all. The problem is that the Hero's Journey kind of shows up in all mythos, even if said mythos had no connection to Greece. Best example is Beowulf (and most Northern European stories), it was 'written' between 650BC and 800BC... the same time frame (generally attributed to around 700BC and 800BC) as The Odyssey. As such a few rare examples of modern literature can actually claim little to no influence from Greek other than the fact that many ideals stay true to all of our cultures. Prime example of that is actually LotR which Tolkien straight up explained comes from his study of those Northern European stories (Aragorn is literally stolen from one of them).
I like that Zeus says he is the judgement call. He isn't just saying this as a metaphor. One of Zeus's domains is JUSTICE.
Ironically so for this story.
It makes a lot of sense and it makes me sad how often people forget abt that part. Zeus is the king of the gods! Of course it’s his job to punish people for stepping out of line, that’s what a king does. Is his justice a little skewed? Yeah, but it’s also Ancient Greece so hey what can ya do
Zeus is the ultimate karma Houdini.
The thumbnails devolving from loving the musical and being happy to being crushed and crying is a hilariously accurate portrayal of the entire fanbases reactions
Last thumbnail will just be him sobbing with a smile
You are correct that they were on the ship. Odysseus is left floating in the ocean at the end of this song. That's important to note for the next song.
And to think Has Eurylochus not decided to kill Helos' cattle, they would have been home in no time. It was literally part of the actual Odyssey prophesy. It is basically explicitly stated to Odysseus, "when you find an island with Helos' cattle, DON'T KILL THEM. If you can pass that test, you and everyone you are with will make it home safe. If they are killed, you may live, but everyone else in your crew dies."
I’ve been keeping up with this series the last week, and I am so in love with your analysis!! Literally no stone is unturned. I’d love to see more on this channel, be that musical or otherwise, I am faithfully subscribed. Good luck with your novel🫡🫡
Yooo, hey Duvet
Ooo, one of my fav animatic creator here! ❤
THE GOAT HERSELF!!
Odysseus animatic when/j
Oh thank you so much for the kindness!!
Odysseus is saying "Row for your lives", not "Run for your lives". They need to row pretty fast, so Scylla does not get to snatch more then one man whith each head. If they stayed in this lair longer or tried to figth her, she could actually kill all of them.
Lol you know, that makes sense. Imagine they all just start running off the ship haha
@@JacobPenrodWrites There's actually a tiktok of Jorge's where he jokes about this misheard lyric lol
@@thedisappointmentofearthThe fitness gram pacer test is a-
@@alanplays2881NO THE FLASHBACKS AAAAGAAAGHHA
Ye the think is Scylla if u ever search her up she can make whirlpools and he had to sacrifice 6 men or be sucked in a whirlpool
Ody's kind of a prophet himself isn't he? When does a candle become a blaze (Aeolus), When does a ripple become a tidal wave (Poseidon), when does the reason become the blame ("Tell me you didn't miss home so painfully bad, that you gave up the lives of six of our friends?" - Eurylochus, Mutiny)
31:30 From what I understand, she's not just destroying to destroy. She is feeding. She needs to kill men for food, so she only takes one for each head. She could kill all of them, but she takes only what she needs to survive. "But Scylla has a cost". Odysseus knew this going in. He knows her motivations and that more men would die if they tried to fight her instead. "We must do what it takes to survive" she's just trying to stay alive just as much as Ody.
I'm glad someone mentioned this; not a lot of reactors call back to Ody's conversation with the Siren. This, when put together, further humanizes Scylla-she has a specific cost, one life for each of her heads, but so long as she's not attacked, she takes no more than what she needs to survive. Literally.
in the odyssey theres a line where it says “It's better to die at sea from the wrath of the gods, than to die of hunger” so thats exactly the reason. Youre right. This is him choosing his death.
So a fun(kinda horrible) fact about Neal's thunderbringer, she said Zeus made the cloud woman at the beginning look similar to Penelope just to torment Odysseus even more.
Oh that's crazy 😲
My take on the "If you want all the power, you must carry all the blame" line is more "If you had told us about this plan, you probably could have gotten six volunteers or let us choose randomly, but since you decided to spring it on us, those six deaths are exclusively your fault". Because he doesn't deny the "you know you'd have done the same" accusation, he just turns it around as "You didn't LET US do the same".
Also the way Eurylochus says "Captain?" after he kills the cow has the exact same vibes as someone who just jumped off a building, when they reach for someone who's trying to save them.
Because every time he let the lemmings called crew do anything THEY MADE THINGS WORSE
that's honestly a very interesting and tragic interpretation.
Had Odysseus informed the crew of the plan, some would probably be willing to sacrifice themselves so everyone else can finally make it home. Maybe even Eurylochus would volunteer considering his guilt over opening the windbag.
I kinda see the “Captain?” Line in a similar way in conjunction with “if you want all the power you just carry all the blame.” Like when Eurylocus actually follows through on killing the cow, whether he knew what would happen or not, in that moment he doesn’t want the consequences on his hands and shoves it back on Odysseus. Because before that it was “Ody” and “my friend” and he only goes back to “Captain” when it’s time to face the consequences of his actions.
Agreed! Ive always thought this too.
Just look at how eager the men were to "end their suffering" by killing the cow, and how many probably echoed Eury's hopelessness that they'd ever make it home. If he had just told them the plan, he would've gotten some volunteers and wouldn't have lost the trust of the crew. He didn't tell them. He took control and power, the blame is solely Ody's, even though Ody also had good reasons
33:50 fun fact Odysseus never told him to hand out the Torches to Pacific people so he technically gave him the option of who was going to die
so, just to add some context to 'Suffering' and 'Different Beast'
Jorge did his best convincing us that he cut the sirens out of Epic, that nothing like that was gonna be there and he kept secrets about those two songs and what they're about because of that
this explains the lack of any set up - it's supposed to make you feel weird, like something is off, like it's a fever dream, and make you question the reality of what is happening
it's also beggining of act 2, so there is supposed to be a literal interval between 'Monster' and the 'Suffering', implying some passing of time or at least scene change
i do agree that 'Different Beast' is very expositional, but i think Jorge just felt an explanation was needed, and the song slaps so i'm not mad about it hahaa
it's the only song like that in the musical, so it doesn't sour the experience overall for me
additional point, about Scylla - she is not destroying for the sake of destroying, she is ruthless for the sake of her own survival (she has to eat something after all)
she is a monster like Polyphemus (both songs are named after the monsters by the way, even Poseidon didn't get that treatment)
and so we have another parallel between a monster that Ody meets and himself
interestingly enough, Ody was in the right to do what he did, it's HOW he did it was wrong
he knows it's the only way to get past Poseidon, he knows Scylla has 6 heads that are very hungry, and he knows that if he tries to fight her - everybody on the ship dies, so it's the lesser evil in the situation they're in
but the fact that he kept his whole crew in the dark about what's gonna happen, plotted everything by himself and directly tried to get rid of Eurylochus (which is canon in Epic, yes) is what caused mutiny
if he had explained everything from beginning, maybe the crew would understand and decide together who is willing to die to save the others, but they weren't given that choice and everything turned out how it did
I have noticed the more time Ody has to think the colder his actions are. Pure cost vs benefit.
I came down to say the same thing 😂. I never thought about him trying to show the sirens were cut though, that's actually really funny
So Jorge says he intentionally wrote different beast that way on purpose. If you just listen to the music with no animatics (the way I first listened) you don’t realize that she’s a siren until different beast. He wanted the audience to be confused in suffering. And then blindside the audience in different beast. Almost leading the audience to think that he believed the siren, but then we forget that Odysseus is cunning. And so different beast reminds us that he’s always thinking and it was all done on purpose. And also if this is a stage musical then suffering would be the Act 2 opener which is really cool. Cause you think maybe so much time has passed and he’s hallucinating or it’s a vision. Because it’s the start of Act 2. I like that we don’t get all the information. Almost like all this happened during the intermission and it’s a time skip.
Hey!
So just so you know, Jorge said that the chant of the sirens allows them to access your memories. But because odysseus had beeswax in his ears, the siren only got very unprecise informations, hence why she knew that he needed Penelope and wanted his suffering to end, but made mistakes such as talking about a daughter or his fear of the water
Edit: also I think the reason we didn't see more setup to the payoff in Different Beast is because it makes it look more like a villain plan than anything else. It makes it seem almost inevitable, as if the sirens were doomed from the start, which was terrifying to me considering how smart we know Odysseus can be. There's no suspense, no buildup, he's just the monster and he will do whatever it takes to get home.
Though I agree it does make for a pretty exposition heavy song but hey, can't have your cake and eat it too
Yes, I also think the whole “telling” thing is in character for Ody and just shows he’s still cocky and a little bit ignorant just like he was at Polyphemus’ cave. He tends to gloat and give out more information after he thinks he’s won and this is illustrating more of that imo
@@A.Scavenger.Thing.666 Either this...or he was reassuring his men that he was in control and it was posturing for them. Like "Now that I'm the monster, look how even more clever I am. Just stick with me and we'll get home."
Also, The entire song didn't have a viola (Penelope's instrument) but a mallet (Polites' instrument) why must Polites haunt us every single saga
This
Also, Eurylochus, unlike literally every other character _doesn't_ have a signature instrument, the closest thing he has is the crew backing him up because in a way he _is_ the voice of the crew. But what makes it extra interesting is when during Mutiny, Ody's electric guitar backs him, because is shows that he's trying to take Ody's place as captain
Insane catch. We will never run out of details to findddd 😩
@@akashijamoka this has actually been confirmed by Jorge! I forgot the name of the vid though
So theres an issue with not using Jorges official livestream where he commissioned artists for specific moments of songs: artists are gonna take their own liberties. I absolutely love Neals work but along with the inaccuracy of them not being on the ship, Jorge has specifically mentioned Eurylochus attacking Odysseus at the end of Thunderbringer along with the rest of the crew as being canon and that lullaby at the end as Telemachus’s lullaby. As Odysseus is sinking with his lightning struck wreckage, the lullaby plays and he thinks of his son and family. I only bring this up bc i think its better to analyze knowing the actual authorial intent even in circumstances where I prefer artist interpretations
Damn I really prefer Eurylochus not attacking Ody
But I agree with you
This is important! I hope he reads it, Or he will be a little lost. I love the interpretation of eurylochuis just being resigned to death and not attacking though.
But Eurylochus not attacking Oddyseus feel more powerfull...
Yeah I agree, I also prefer it when people react to the songs without animatics at first.
@@sofialu226 no, Eury was awful in the book.
42:21 also note how Eurylochus and the crew didn’t kill Odysseus. They knocked him out, and they patched him up. They were still gonna bring him home, he just wasn’t in charge. He was a prisoner now, but he was still alive. They showed him mercy.
For those that were familiar with the original story, all it took was that one moo to immediately make them think “OH NO…”
Apologies for the essay, but I wanted to say this: holy crap I cannot even put into words how great your reactions and breakdowns have been. You're literally reading these characters like a book to the point where you're calling out stuff way ahead of time and it makes me think you've heard this before... or you're a prophet. Or you just know your stuff XD. I hadn't EVER noticed Odysseus invoking Penelope when he's about to do something bad, or how much he's pretending to be the monster as a coping mechanism. I could tell he wasn't truly the monster after the Underworld Saga, but I hadn't really put together that it was because it was a mask. Even though I felt for Odysseus before, I feel like you're getting so deep into his mental state in a way I hadn't explored and now this musical is even more emotional to me. I cannot WAIT to see your reaction and analysis of the next saga!!!!! I'm thinking one song in particular will be especially interesting to you... (for anyone else reading this, the penultimate song, particularly the second half) Also, I would absolutely LOVE to see you break down Odysseus as a character. One last thing, in the actual Odyssey, the men decide dying by god is faster and less painful than dying by starvation, so they kill a cow and hope that also sacrificing one will save them, but at the very least they don't wither away slowly. So in the original material, and kind of implied in Jorge's version though not stated directly, it basically is suicide by god.
Mutiny (reading title) ohh mutiny (prophecy) AHHH MUTINY (shit they're gonna do a mutiny)
love it - absolutely was my first reaction
Fun(?) Fact: In the Odyssey, Zeus originally just kills Odysseus’s men, and magically makes Odysseus sleep so he can live. This is because when Helios sent Zeus after the crew for killing his cattle, he tells Zeus to let Odysseus live because Odysseus didn’t do anything(in fact, he was praying to the gods for forgiveness and stuff at the time), but kill the crew for THEIR crime.
Eurylochus is my favourite character because he is just so complex as a character. People make him look like he is a villain,when in reality he is just a man (no pun intended) who is suffering. He really doesn't deserve all the hate he gets.
I aboslutely agree. I see how people would find him unlikeable, but I found him so compelling and well written. It's a hot take, but I felt more attached to Eurylochus than Polites
he's genuinely one of my favorite characters. i'm so so emotional about his conflict between duty and exhaustion and longing to be home
Despite Eurylochus' mistakes, I like his character. I can't really explain it well but all I can say is that I tend to like the foot soldiers/henchmen/minion.
I like him a lot more in this retelling than the original for sure.
@@JacobPenrodWritesI do like Eurylochus a lot more than Polites as well.
I think its important to point out that a lot of song lead with a characters name because as the original work is purely audible the audience would have no idea what new character is singing now. Introing with POSEIDION on ~Penelope~ instantly makes that clear. Although I do enjoy your take that "names have power" which is still a proper grounded theory
You could have given me a hundred years and that literally never would have occured to me but that makes so much sense 😂
Yea dont forget this is a musical and the animatics were an unexpected addition later on.
i like the names have power thing because 1. the first time Odysseus's name is actually said in the musical is during Remember Them when he severely goofed it. and because 2. the monsters tend to have songs named after them. reminds me of something in the Ithaca saga...
It does also act as a nice touch for Zeus, though - his name is *never* mentioned in Thunder Bringer, which in contrast to Poseidon gives the impression that he doesn't need to be announced - everyone will know his coming by the sound of thunder alone.
@JacobPenrodWrites I think this is also why different beasts is so exposition heavy since there is no show only tell
1:00:52 We cried... yeah, just cried.
You might be the best reactor I’ve watched thus far. You cover the part that’s fun about watching reactions where it’s exciting to watch someone get emotional over the same things you did (like when you realised the six torches), but you also go into so much detail about the narrative that I disagree with like 20% of the time but totally love. I disagree a lot about Ody, but I love how much you kinda fundamentally get that he’s meant to be human.
Quick note on Different Beast: I’ve always viewed the expository part of the song as something to also represent him gloating to the sirens, essentially monologuing to them and showing them how stupid they were, essentially being prideful in how he’s finally embracing the monster… before that pride is stripped away.
Edit: In case no one else mentions, mythologically Circe is actually the reason Scylla is the way she is - she transformed Scylla into the way she is because she was in love (there are other ways :)) with a god who was really more into Scylla. And EPIC’s music hints at this connection - Circe’s motif plays on the piano when the siren talks about the lair of Scylla.
Further add on cause I’m still watching: AHHHHHH I LOOOOVE YOUR EURYLOCHUS ANALYSIS ITS EXAVTLY HOW I INTEPRETED THE COW MURDER - ITS SUICIDE BY GOD
Further add on your eyes when watching that part of Mutiny represents how I feel everytime I pay attention to that part. It KILLS ME.
you figuring Scylla out IMMEDIATELY was masterful
@@ClassicDepravities his reaction to realizing she has 6 heads and all the dots suddenly connecting was amazing as well lol
Honestly, the six heads = six sacrifices plus a lot of the other stuff he says screams "prewatched"
@@GoomsiesI doubt that. The six heads is fairly obvious. In different beast he says “but Scylla has a cost” implying he knows he needs to make sacrifices. So if a reactor listens to that, it’s easy to think 6 torches + dark cave = obvious target / intentional sacrifice
@MaddyPerez128 It's not that simple. You probably noticed that most reactors don't even think about the number of heads. Most don't realize it's significant even by the end, let alone that it matches the number of sacrifices. And at frame one? As soon as he sees her? Nah. This and some other parts of the musical where he predicts exactly what's going to happen just seem a little too on the nose to be an unguided first time through this story.
@@Goomsies his entire job is fantasy writer. what he's doing is recognizing literary patters in the story, going off what he knows about story structure, and making those guesses. It's really not out of the realm of possibility for me. I've seen other reactors make WILD story predictions that came true too, but THEY didn't pre-watch.
Fun fact: Penelope’s instrument is a Viola but in suffering there isn’t a Viola hinting that this isn’t Penelope
I think there was expectation is because Odysseus is being boastful showing his hubris
The thing is even if Odysseus apologizes Poseidon would not have let them go anyways so he was doomed if he did and doomed if he didn’t
They’ve been on the island of cows for 9 days because Poseidon trapped them on it
Scylla used to be a Nymph until she was mutated by Circe into what we see her now
“Something approaches”
“But Scylla has a cost.”
Eurylacus and 42 crew members had no idea where they were heading except Odysseus who knew that Scylla had a cost 6 heads, 6 torches, and 6 men it was a necessary evil to save 36 men or else Scylla would have killed all of them
Scylla lyrics:
Deep down
Deep down
You hide a reason for shame
Deep down
You know that we are the same
Leaving them feeling betrayed
Breaking the bonds that you've made
There is no price we won't pay
We both know what it takes to survive
Deep down
We only care for ourselves
Deep down, we're lonely demons from hell
Hello
Drown in your sorrow and fears
Choke on your blood and your tears
Bleed 'til you've run out of years
We must do what it takes to survive
Give up your honor and faith
Live up your life as a wraith
Die in the blood where you bathe
We must do what it takes to survive
We are the same, you and I
Odysseus said: row for your lives
What some people hear: run for your lives
The thing is Zues would have killed the crew and spared Odysseus regardless of if Odysseus chose to sacrifice himself because he was the only one who didn’t harm a cow so Zues was just fucking with him
Honestly if Odysseus had chosen himself I think that Zeus would have been so surprised and impressed that he would have spared the crew.
Remember that image and reputation are a major theme here. Zeus isn't present because he actually has a stake in hurting Odysseus; he's just there because it'll make him look bad if someone slights his son and he does nothing. Same logic as Poseidon, really.
So if he kills Odysseus he can say "the captain was responsible for his men; that settles the debt."
He'd for sure leave the crew stranded at sea, but I don't think he'd kill them - that would be breaking his word, which is also a slight on his reputation. Zeus is many awful things, but an outright liar is not one of them.
@@maxastro have you seen God games?
@@alpharoam15chris51 Yes, but that's different - Zeus' personal honor was at stake, because for Athena to win his game meant that he loses. And he *did* say that Athena had to convince him also, so he didn't really lie. Ultimately he did release Odysseus and keep his word.
There would be no loss to Zeus' honor if he killed Odysseus and left, so it's a different situation.
@@maxastro he said “Or me” so it’s convincing them or him that’s why Athena said “I’ve played your game and won” she did as the game was made and Zues was being a sore loser
Plus the fact Athena called him out on cheating on Hera
I also LOVE the idea of us as an audience going "Yay! Penelope mention! Time for Atrocities!" Really nailed that one
Fun fact about Zeus, his name is never spoken in Thunder bringer, he doesn't need to be introduced, just by the thunder and his presence you know who it is. Unlike Poseidon who immediately leads off with his name after confronting Odysseus
In Suffering you also have to remember that Ody hasn't seen Penelope in ages. So even though he knows it's a siren it's just nice to see and hear something that looks like his wife.
Don’t know if you’ve noticed but now that you’ve done vengeance, you’ll see that the songs with monsters in them are just titled their names (Polyphemus, Scylla, Charybdis) and that’s a really important detail to notice in the final saga
Never noticed that before
omg thanks for this thats a really neat detail :O
"Monster" technically as well
What about poseidon and the sirens? Would Zeus count as a "monster", considering they don't really fight him?
@@TheCanderemyI’m not sure why the sirens don’t have a named song actually but I think Jorge said he separates the Gods from the monsters which is why Poseidon and Zeus aren’t included :)
Oh you poor man, thank you for suffering through for us. Great reactions, dude! I was initially a little baffled by your perspective on Odysseus, I wrote two whole comment essays, lol. However, now I see we actually agree more than we disagree, and I'm curious to see if your perspective changes as you watch more. You are so perceptive, and catch on to plot points ridiculously quickly.
Genuinely thank you for uploading these reactions so quickly! A lot of other reactors, as much as I love them, tend to drag it out for a while and go song by song.
That being said, while we enjoy the upload speed, please take a break if you need to. I would hate for you to feel pressured to finish the show if you are tired or otherwise busy, lol. Great reaction as always.
1:00:11 I think, Eury said that „But we’ll die“ not as an appeal for mercy or something like it, but as a chance fir Ody to say „Im sorry“. But instead, he gets a „I know“.
You are one of the first people I've seen catch on to the 6 torches before the bloodbath even begins. The thunder crash after Penelope sings to Ody seems to imply that Zues was hitting him with a vision just like in "The Horse and the Infant", nudging the poor soul to make such a wretched choice
fun fact in ancient greece sailors not knowing how to swim wasnt a rarity cuz it was considered if they were good enough at their job of handling the ship there really was no reason for them to learn how to swim since the ship will stay afloat and safe and in some cases sailors knowing how to swim was considered bad luck
also if you hate zeus now, BOY, just wait till the wisdom saga, you are gonna loathe his ass
You’ve been very observant throughout this reaction series, so I doubt the next part will confuse you too much. However, (without spoiling anything), I recommend watching Duvetbox’s animatic for Legendary and watching with closed captions. I think this clears up some confusion that people have had about who is talking.
He's already done Wisdom Saga pretty sure (I think he put out a community post about it). At this point he might even finished up Vengeance
Two things. 1, you are right. This is specifically a modern retelling of the odyssey. It's why Odysseus didn't sleep with Circe. In quite a few versions of the Odyssey, Ody sleeps with Circe for various reasons. But the thing is, in those times, what was considered cheating was very different from what we consider cheating nowadays. Odysseus doesn't sleep with Circe in Epic because Jorge has to keep up the "Loyal husband" that the original wanted to show, in a modern way.
2. You remember what the prophet said? "Portrayals" of betrayal, multiple betrayals. And he doesn't just see the future, but the past as well.
"I see portayals of betrayal."
Eury with the bag.(Past)
Ody in Scylla.(future)
The mutiny.(future)
Lastly, it was "Row" for your lives. Not "Run" don't worry about it lol, so many people hear it wrong because of how close it sounds
i always saw Eurylochus as a mirror to odysseus and i think you finally completed my toughs about him, he is like my second favorite character he is just so human.
You don’t know how happy I am to find someone not immediately villainizing Eurylochus 😭
You break things down wonderfully
I find it very interesting that this illusional Penelope in "Thunderbringer" says the same thing as the siren. In my opinion it proves that the siren was actually voicing what Odysseus really wants. I think he sees Penelope as this one person who can kinda absolve him of his sins and free him of his guilt, he hopes she can take this suffering from him. For Odysseus she not only his love, but his salvation, and that's why it's worth everything.
Commenting this as I go so I apologize if you reach this conclusion later in the video: but one thing to note is that after Act 1 the perspective isn't strictly with Odysseus anymore. Before we were along for the ride with all of his innermost thoughts, but after his declaration in Monster, we're separated. We didn't see the backstory of Suffering/Different Beast and in a way, while deceiving the siren, he deceives us too. He's keeping us out the same way he does everything else.
Edit: I'm 99% sure it was completely intentional, as I recall seeing Jorge talk about it!
Love this interpretation!
That's so cool! I never thought of that, but yes. That feels right.
I like how you focused so much on the narrative Zeus’ is portraying and the rest of the fandom is like ‘Zeus sounds hot🥵’ me included. The rest of fandom were too distracted by Luke holt’s voice to analyze
@@DrexMeri I mean… they’re not wrong 😂
Proud to say I've never been like that when it comes to Zeus; ashamed to say that the trade-off is that I'm instead like that when it comes to Poseidon 😔
Neal's visuals here aren't helping either
I personally always thought the reason Odysseus was so exposition heavy in Different Beast was because he was buying himself time to psyche himself up and prepare himself for the order he was about to give. Cuz when you actually listen to what he says, there's maybe like... 3 lines that the Siren ought to hear before dying, and everything else he tells them is fluff, but it's all still related to what he's gone through with his men -- men he now knows he's going to be forced to sacrifice 6 of if he wants to make it home.
So it's that moment where he's like "I'm going to use this moment to exposit and posture so that I can have more time, no matter how small an amount, to prepare myself for what's to come."
That's how I always saw it, anyway.
I always saw it as he is grandstanding. Like "You thought you were playing me. But you didn't even know how to play the game"
@alanplays2881 Regardless, both show he's not nearly as monstrous as he proclaims
I think its a recap of whats been happening since its the first song of act 2
52:31 I'm only watching this now because when you posted I had to get to work but I'm done, so- "Pride is a damsel in distress, one only I can undress." I mentioned in one of your reactions that Odysseus' flaw is hubris, and yes, Zeus can undo that hubris, because pride is the right of the gods, but it is unbecoming on mortals. It's so so good. Also Neal Illustrator is my favorite illustrator in all of EPIC even though she's only done three animations (two on the way I believe), you should eventually see her Ruthlessness, and when you do the wisdom saga I hope you react to her God Games.
Is so funny to me how I am COMPLETELY on the crews side in mutiny like no man, sacrificing our men is an uncrossable line but then in Thunder bringer I am like… bro there is no way I would take the punishment for killing the cow when I was BEGGING them not to and we were close to home after 20 years? Nop nop they are all dying there at Zeus hands 🤷🏻♀️ so great writing from Jorge like always ❤
The way you analyze this story makes me think I haven't even listened to it before. You take away a lot of the concepts from the writing alone and its incredibly refreshing.
I definitely want to read your book when it comes out lmao.
Honestly can't wait for the book seeing how your brain works by figuring out plot points in the musical and being really close even if your sagas away shows how good you are with storytelling and good story telling at that also breaking down motifs and character motives is very interesting.
Counterpoint on Suffering/Different Beast: With how Odysseus never shuts up about his wife and son, and the fact that he's never had any problems with the water until Poseidon himself showed up, and most of all that Odysseus never acts cute and vulnerable like that unless he's plotting something, I think there were plenty of narrative context clues for the fact that those were Sirens and he was just trying to catch them out. Not to mention that Sirens as a pop culture creature are pretty famous for originating in the Odyssey.
Discounting all the hints Gigi put into her animatic, of course; those were her interpretations, and Jorge only wrote the song.
just finished watching, if u ever do character analyses, please do Eurylochus too! i really love how you've never failed to empathize with him and never forget that every trauma Odysseus goes through, Eury goes through as well (minus the baby lol). i just feel like more reactors are so easy to call him a hypocrite in Mutiny, which is true, but fail to realize that Eury has grown and changed and was mended by their journey as much as Ody
Not to mention, Eurylochus didnt intend for the men to die when he opened the wind bag. He didn't mean to hurt anyone, he just didn't trust Ody. Odysseus, however, fully intended to sacrifice 6 men. He planned for it, he knew what he was doing while Eurylochus did not. There is a difference.
@@TheCanderemy I understand everyone saying "there's a difference between an accident and an intentional murder" but I'm still on Ody's side on this one.
On one hand, we have Eurylochus who opened the wind bag *under specific instruction from his captain not to open the bag* because there was a huge storm inside it and as the second in command, was responsible for following the orders while Odysseus was asleep. For some godforsaken reason, he thought "The winions who I was apprehensive about just a moment before are telling the truth, and our captain is lying to us" and opened the bag, resulting in 558 deaths. It wasn't intentional, sure. But his actions led to 558 deaths. That has serious consequences, which he never got (at least to my knowledge). It wasn't a "oh, I stepped on a twig and know the enemies know where we are", it's a "oops, I pressed the red button that I was told NOT to push because I was curious and now everything is blowing up 👉👈".
Not only that, even if there *was* treasure in that bag, what would they have done? Stolen the treasure from their king? At best, Eurylochus is an irresponsible dumbass. At worst, he's an attempted thief that also led to 558 deaths.
On the other hand, we have Odysseus who had to choose between: A. Not going through the lair of Scylla and getting murdered by Poseidon all together, B. Fighting Scylla and everyone dying, C. Sacrifice 6 men for the lives of the rest. Kinda like the trolley problem, but instead of it being 5 vs 1 deaths, it's 42 deaths vs 6 deaths. The 6 men would've died anyway had they tried to fight Scylla. Some people say that the contention is that Odysseus was immune to being one of the 6, but that's also obvious? Odysseus is not only their captain, but is also their reigning king AND the strategist. Had Odysseus died, no one in their crew would've been able to get them home like Odysseus would've been able to. Furthermore, the main reason why Odysseus didn't tell them of his plan is that he has zero trust for them now, with good reason. They opened the damn wind bag that led to 558 deaths. Why should he tell them of the plan beforehand and risk even more betrayals (as in, handing the torches back and forth because they don't want to die, leading to even more confusion and chaos)?
So, it's a "very dumb, very avoidable, very irresponsible mistake vs a carefully thought out, necessary sacrifice".
@@lyrablack9169 Just to clarify, I empathize with both of em, I'm just pointing out that Eury isn't as bad as people make him out to be. I hear what you're saying.
On that note, their death count doesnt really matter, they both effed up. Eurylochus lost his trust when Polites and several other men died because Ody's battle plan failed and Ody just froze up when things got bad. Yes he should've trusted his Captain, but I can't really blame him that he didn't. He was going through grief too, and he didn't feel listened to; and we know this haunts him all the way to his death. We know he felt guilty and probably tortured himself over it. Notice how he didn't protest going to the Underworld? We experience the story through Ody's perspective, doesn't mean the suffering of Eurylochus is any less.
On Ody, yes he did have to sacrifice 6 men or lose all 42, but that does feel like he is taking the easier road. Notice on previous monsters, he would trick the monsters and outsmart them. With Scylla, he didn't even try to find a different solution, he just gave Scylla what she wanted and outsmarted his CREW, not the monster. I'm saying there could've been a better way-- in the eyes of the crew, he has turned against them. Who's to say he wouldn't send them off to their deaths whenever he felt like it just so that HE could make it home? They felt like tools, I do not blame them for staging a Mutiny. And though at this point, they were starving, afraid, and deep down they've all given up on going home; that doesn't make Ody's perceived betrayal hurt any less.
They both acted like fools, they didn't trust each other even though they had the same goal: getting home.
Ody didn't want to face reality, pushing everyone and every feeling away instead of trying to heal and talking it out with the crew; while all Eury could do is watch his friends (all of whom trusted him to protect and advocate for them) die and drown in guilt, powerless (Ody took all the power). Eurylochus lost hope, Ody lost his honour.
Yes the wind bag was an avoidable mistake, but that doesn't mean that Eury didnt have reasons when he made it. The 6 sacrifices could've been unnecessary had Ody just been more open to healing his relationship with his crew and tried to rebuild trust; if he hadn't already given up on them and treated them like tools.
@@TheCanderemy I also do understand your point and agree that Ody should've trusted his men; however, I don't think he took the "easy way out" with Scylla: he took the only viable option. Keep in mind that Scylla is *immortal* .
We've established that we have to get through Scylla.
Option 1: They attempt to fight her from the beginning. They will all immediately die, since they are in Scylla's lair, and all she has to do is destroy the ship, which is easy af for her. The only reason why she doesn't do this is because she just needs food, so unless you attack her, she'll just eat the people. But if you do start throwing spears at her, she will drown you.
Option 2: Deceit. A: They throw inedible decoys. Scylla will catch on, get pissed, and kill all of them. B: They throw edible decoys AKA the sirens. 1. We don't even know if they have sirens on board still, and 2. Scylla is known for being a man-eating monsters. It's unlikely that she'll be happy about eating a fellow sea creature. Again, she'll get pissed, destroy the ship, and eat all of them.
Option 3: No torches; just 6 unlucky guys die. This risks the possibility of Scylla not being able to aim properly and just destroy the boat in the process of trying to eat people.
Option 4: Yes torches; but Ody tells them the plan in advance. How likely is it that the 6 that are chosen actually go through with it? They would probably throw the torches out in the sea when Scylla gets close to them since they know it's the torch that's letting Scylla know where they are. Now, again, we have the risk of the boat being destroyed and everyone dying.
I truly believe that Ody when through all of these scenarios in his head, alone and decided that this was the only way. All in all, Ody's plan was quite literally the only one that would get anyone alive.
As for Eurylochus, I completely understand his lack of trust for Ody. However, it doesn't really make sense for him to believe Aeolus over Ody, does it? I mean, he was apprehensive about the god in the first place. No matter how much he can't trust Ody, that is no reason to trust a god over him when he himself knows how dangerous they are.
I'm not saying the mutiny shouldn't have happened. If I were a crew member, I would've felt betrayed on so many levels and joined everyone. What I'm saying is Ody is not a monster and asshole for sacrificing 6 of his men and not telling them in advance. Eurylochus is not the pragmatic, blameless, righteous guy that some people (not you) claim him to be.
Yeah, I saw the "Captain?" and things afterward as the "View From Halfway Down" moment. They all made their choice, Eurylochus knew he was choosing death and thought he was ready for it, but once it was oncoming... well, like you said, there's always some part of us, as humans, that does not want to die. Unfortunately, he was already halfway down and there was no stopping it.
love your analysis one thing I'd like to point out is Eurylochus never denied that he would have done the same when Odysseus sacrificed those men. From my perspective what he said was it doesn't matter what I would have done, your the one who did it your the one in charge.
I really like that you're interpretation of this character is refreshingly difference than the surface level that other reactors are getting. I agree that this speaks a lot about the complexity of the writing and how they're written from a very human place with very human motivations and struggles.
The whole "us vs them" mentality is something indicative of the culture of Greece at the time where they highly value the "be kind to your friends and be absolutely brutal to your enemies" mentality.
LOVE the metaphors you're identifying with the gods/penelope cuz I wouldn't've noticed otherwise. Cannot WAIT for your reaction to the last sagas.
If water represents Ody's montrosity, then Get in the Water takes on a completely new meaning
I wish I could get every Epic fan to watch your reaction to Mutiny and Thunderbringer, and listen to what you’re saying. I think what’s going on in those situations are lost on a lot of people. When you were talking about how you could just tell that people were going to misinterpret Thunderbringer, I was shouting THANK YOU at the screen. And also same with Mutiny. Eury KNEW what was going to happen. People keep making jokes about how he never learned and doesn’t listen to Ody but.. LISTEN to him. The voice AND his words. He knows. And he is giving up.
Indeed you are right thunder bringer is supposed to happen on the ships away from the island.
Which make in my opinion the "choice" even worse because he is "spared" by zeus, but he is effectively shipwrecked and alone, left to potentially drown in the middle of the ocean, poseidon's domain.
As far as I’m aware the reason why the remaining crew members chant “Eurylochos” and “Odysseus” (39:28) is because Eurylochos’ signature instrument is the Voice of the crew.
You can actually hear Odysseus’ instrument as well.
Just as a note, Odysseues says "row for your lives" not run. Telling them basically "the faster we're out of here the less we lose". Also in my opinion during Mutiny when Eurylocus talks to him in the beginning, i interpreted that as him actually asking Odysseus to lie and convince him that he didnt know anything and we should just move along but Odysseus cant lie to Eurylocus.
Ody tells us from the jump exactly what he is willing to give up in the name of Penelope and Telemachus. In the Troy Saga he literally says “deep down I would trade the world to see my son and wife”. It is such a throw away phrase because we use it so often irl. But in every saga since, he proves those words to be true.
And I agree that Odysseus definitely did not apologize to Posiedon….he just offered excuses. Pride was a huge contributor to his downfall in Act 1.
I think it's my first comment for any epic reaction but I just need to say that you're doing the best first watch I saw on youtube! You're catching so many details which taken me like 10 watches to catch them. My only wish is for you to be carefull witch choosing what animatics you are watching because for example in Mutiny you chose one to be cut short. The song has like 15 seconds more where Odysseus screaming for the crew to run.
Also there is a lot of interpretation in different animatics and you're focusing on the story telling so if you want the authentic animations what Jorge wanted to show, I'm sugesting to react of the livestream version. He's doing colaborations with so many great artists and sending them clues what they shoud include. Maby it's less visual because half of it is just lirycs but still, all the important parts are animated. But anyway, GREAT WORK FROM YOU!
"Something I have to remember is that Odysseus is smarter than me"
- words said by every writer who has ever had to write a character smarter than them
He actually said "row for your lives" in Scylla, not "run", but I can only ever hear "run" myself. But he was spurring them on to get through with the ones that would live, not trying to kill all of them or anything. Still horrifying. I also slightly want to push back on Scylla doing it just to destroy - she does only take six, they are literally a sacrifice or "payment", and her motives are explicit in the text. "We must do what it takes to survive."
I love Eurylochus a lot and I think he's probably the reason that Ody survived the mutiny. It's impossible otherwise for me to think that they would have let him live under these circumstances. Despite his betrayal, he still loves Ody and does know that he's not always been like this. I think he doesn't think Odysseus is a lost cause. There are a lot of interpretations of his reaction to Ody choosing himself over the crew, some portraying him as angry/hostile and some portraying him as accepting, but I think he would be more the latter - "if you want all the power, you must carry all the blame". He was the one who chose to kill the cattle, and he knows the consequences.
Now I can talk about my pet narrative read! It is significant to me that as soon as Odysseus betrays his morals and "becomes the monster", the narrative punishes him repeatedly and increasingly, and only Eurylochus' love saves him if we assume he kept him alive through the mutiny. Obviously he's suffered before, but specifically because he gives up, sacrifices his men to Scylla, and stops trying, he loses everything he has left. He ends up trapped and alone with Calypso on her island.
Although his desire for mercy and peace in previous sagas was imperfect, and only resulted in success with Circe, it was still thematically and narratively important that he didn't give up that part of himself. He was never punished narratively like this until after he stopped at least *trying* to hold to his morals, even if he rarely succeeded completely.
This all sets him up to be on absolute rock-bottom, alone, in Love in Paradise, when he finally breaks and cries out for Athena (= breaks his isolation and "reaches out" to someone finally).
Really love your analysis of Zeus's role in the narrative, I hadn't specifically thought of him as the root of trauma but it works perfectly and rings true throughout the story. Really excellent insights. Losing it at "I HATE him. BRILLIANTLY written character." You're so real for that lmao
Odysseus' crew be like "don't you know that ruthlessness" then immediately go "oh $#!+ he is killing the sirens, he is a monster"
58:00 Even if it wasn't explicitly Ody's fault, it's like Eurylochus said: "If you want all the power, you must carry all the blame."
for different beast, jorge the creator wanted the audience to kinda be on the receiving end of ody's cunning. thats why we were given information afterwards
1:01:02 The fans just watched new animatics and searched for new reactors to suggest Epic to, so they could relive the series from the beginning again and take some comfort from watching those new reactors suffer. Is it sadistic? Maybe. Did it help though? Yes, very much so. Thank you for reacting to this series as your commentary has been entertaining and showed a new side in how to interpret the series.
I always thought Eurylochus was hypocritical in Mutiny because he was willing to leave the men behind to Circe, but truly those men didn't die, they were just turned into pigs. Eurylochus didn't plot for that to happen whereas Odysseus plotted to sacrifice to Scylla (who was transformed into a monster by Circe when she attracted the attention of a mortal man that Circe had her eye on, btw)
Exactly. Eurylochus was saying 'I don't think we can beat her, and you rushing in there could get those of us who remain killed'
And like.. I don't know if he was wrong. Ody succeeded because Hermes showed up and chose to give him Moly. Presumably he would've lost on his own
It's insane how you are able to analyze both the songs, characters and the animatics AND correctly "guess" (because you aren't guessing, you are analyzing it) what will happen next!!! I adore that, seriously, it shows your knowledge on story telling :) great job!!!
Uhhh Mutiny….ooooooh mutiny…..OH NO MUTINY! 😂 you’re reactions are on point and the character breakdown you do for the characters of this show are insane. The detail you provide has helped me notice bits of the story I never picked up on before when I listen through again. I’m thoroughly enjoying your reactions so far and am looking forward to the next one already!
You going through all of this so fast is deeply relatable- can’t wait for you to connect all of the musical cues and see that most of what you are saying is confirmed by the composition of the music itself even without lyrics
Ah man, I'm so sad you didn't react to Gigi's Scylla, it's one of my favorite animatics from her. Amazing reaction as always tho!
Lots of fish have to keep moving to breath. Also we don't know where their gills are. So yeah, depending on how they're put together, drowning them is on the table. Presumably one of those conditions fits the Sirens.
Loved your point regarding apologies and how the story shows them to work, along with how quickly you put together the sacrifices!
I love Thunder Saga, its one of my favourites and just so you know Thunder Bringer is supposed to happen on the ship in the middle of the ocean, not on the island on land
It's a testament to how incredibly good Neil's animatic is that basically everyone recommends it as the best Thunder Bringer animatic even though it messes the framing up.
@@maxastro Agreed. I think Neil just animates Zeus so perfectly, that it's my favorite interpretation. He gets the perfect smug look on his face. It fits the way Luke performs it so well! Zeus is just playing with Odysseus here, and you can see how much he's enjoying himself, and it just makes you hate him more. That's why I love it so much, framing aside.
29:30 ROW for your lives :D
I feel like the Thunder Saga also mirrors Eurylochus to Odysseus's previous Sagas. Scylla is Eurylochus's cyclops. We have his version of Just a Man. Zeus is his Poseidon.
And the reason Zeus shows up is... well, he is the God of Law. Whenever a mortal crosses the boundaries, especially here - the divine ones - it's kinda mandatory for Big Z Energy to show up and be the judgment call, as he says so himself.
"Enlighten me, King of Ithaca" sounds so similar to "And lie to me, King of Ithaca", as in he expects to hear excuses.
I see the song of past romance (Sirens' song disguised as Penelope)
I see the sacrifice of men (Scylla)
I see portrayals of betrayal (Odysseus + Eurylochus)
And the brother's final stand (Mutiny)
Zeus showed up because Helios threatened to drive the Sun to the underworld if he doesn't do something about his sacred cattle 😭😭
I really appreciate your review, criticisms and all. I too felt many of the things you mentioned, but now I really understand because you clarified the "why's". There's a moment later in the series that is a "jump the shark" moment for me (and my kids). Several clever animators have smoothed this over for the subset of fans who felt the same. Regardless of all of these criticisms, at the end of the day, me and my kids are MEGA fans of EPIC and Jorge and these, nor any other, criticisms have dampened our enthusiasm and love of EPIC. I'm a mega fan and supporter. We love going and growing through all of this process with Jorge and crew. In much the same way, the majority of us are deeply enjoying the way you are bringing clarity, insight, and your own passion and caring to EPIC with your bardic skills!
One thing i like that is consistent(or at least as far as i can tell) when Scylla attacks Ody never moves. He knows he was safe just standing still. The people with the torches would die and as long as he didnt draw attention to himself he was fine.
Also Zeus is awful, I agree 100% and in mythology it backs this up. I would say the play itself backs this up with his appearances.
Btw when he yells “run for your life!” He’s actually saying “row” im pretty sure
Also something that makes my blood boil in mutiny is that the few is like “how are we supposed to trust you know” yet they opened the wind bag and yet Odysseus still somewhat trusted them to do orders and follow his commands😭 and that right after something goes wrong they go back to calling him captain
For reallllll like, Odysseus TOLD them "do what I say and you'll see them again (their families and their home) ", they didn't listen and now everyone is dead
The crew do trust Odysseus,when he isn’t hypocritical
Being oppositional to Athena causes them to get stuck in the storm.with the previous losses they would be a bit doubtful.Ody does gain back trust by freeing them from Circe,but the reminder of the underworld and willingly sacrificing six of them to Scylla makes it worse
He proved in his arguments with Eury that he’d protect them and get home,even if they did something stupid like open the windbag,the sacrifice after the reveal makes it seem he goes back on his word,when it was going to be his plan the whole time. by the time Zeus rolls in they sealed their fates
The reason Eurylochus killed the cow in the odyssey (I think) was becuase its more honorable to die to a God than to starve to death.
In the Odyssey, when it came to the sirens, they just sailed passed. Ody had his crew stuff their ears with beeswax to resist their song but he wasnted to hear their song. So he had his crew tie him to the mast so he could listen without rushing to his death XD.
As for Scylla, she was paired with another sea monster, Charybdis, and Oddyseus was faced with teh challenge of sailing between them without being caught by either. This failed as Scylla ate 6 of his crew, but that ment her 6 mouths were full so he was like "go...go go go go go go go GO!!"
I think in the myth Tiresias told Odysseus about Scylla and Charybdis and that she will eat 6 of his men and that he could not do anything to save them even if he tried, if he did anything to stop her, she would've destroyed the whole ship and kiIIed everyone
I think this is one of my favourite videos from you so far, loved the read on Odysseus vs Eurylochus and what effect the Underworld had on them. And then the layer of power = control further strengthening the conflict in Mutiny really puts something itno words I hadn't quite been able to grasp before. But I did always want to push back at people JUST calling Eurylochus hypocritical for his words, and this feels like it's hitting the nail on the head for me.
AND YOU NOTICED THE RESIGNATION- yes good.
mutiny as a symbolic suicide is fascinating and i absolutely see it now.
I wonder if you would consider making some videos watching alternative animatics? you really are spoiled for choice with this musical and with you as a former animation director i'd love to see that as content. you really gotta see duvetbox's thunderbringer
I would highly recommend reacting to alternate animatics to the same songs for epic. It's really interesting to see the same story interpretated differently.
Yes! I want him to analyse the different animatics!
I know you've mentioned you haven't read the Odyssey, but I'm so glad you seemed to fully feel Eurylochus's desperation and knowledge of what will happen, Jorge did so good with this. In the Odyssey the crew were aware of Helios's protection of the cows, but they were stuck there for a month because of the storm. Eurylochus figured either they would slaughter the cows and be given a quick death by a god, or the gods would take it as an offering (they picked the best looking cows) and spare them and they would honor Helios when they were able to get home. The way Jorge fades the cow's mooing into the sounds of Zeus is also cool. As the dead cows's bodies moving or mooing, even on the fire spit, were a sign from the gods to the crew that what they were doing was wrong in the Odyssey, but the crew still ate.
I cackled when you asked if Odysseus would keep a secret from the crew because, if I understand correctly, he actively was at that point. He’s the only one who speaks with the sirens, so he’s the only one who knew they were going to Scylla’s lair. The men all seem on edge and confused (Eury even says “something approaches” like he doesn’t know what it is).
Worse, Odysseus didn’t even have the guts to pick the six men to hold the torches, he makes Eury do it. So now Eury feels responsible because he unknowingly picked their six sacrifices.
One small detail in Thunder Bringer, whenever the crew sings "When does a man become a monster?" it gets drowned out by Penelope singing "I can take the suffering from you". I always took it as Odysseus not wanting to believe his crew, his brother, saw him as a monster.
Its also a call back to Zeus promising to deafen Ody, I believe I saw somewhere that Penelope being Yellow is meant to reflect its just lightning zeus formed into Penelope's shape to ensure Ody would make the call he (zeus) expected him to make.
I'll have you know you post these just as I wake up and I sit there and eat breakfast and watch these. I also love that they're an hour long. I like how you analyze this story via the lyrics.
fun fact so the piano that plays at the end of thunderbringer is referred to as "Telemachus' Lullaby" musically its still invoking Penelope and Telemachus even after he makes the choice. The official livestream animatic also has Odysseus flashing back to them in this moment as he is submerged with the corpses of the crew
I beg you to do more reaction content/character analyses, I cannot get over how great your looks into the characters and story are. This reaction has honestly been really helpful for me to look at my own characters and see how I can give them more depth and interesting behavior, which has been something I've always struggled with writing.
Edited for a few spelling mistakes and youtube unhearted it :( sad
I've been waitingggg!!! I also roped my friend to watch your videos cause your like reaction/analysis has someeee really really great insight!!!!!!
Thanks so much for watching and sharing!
@@JacobPenrodWrites u deserve recognition! When ur books come out, I hope I have saved enough to buy fighting!!
I look forward to your videos everyday 😊😊❤❤