As a friend of mine recently said: "If you're not fed love with a silver spoon, you learn to lick it off knives." Have to say, that resonated with me on a whole other level.
I love that Margot Robbie though broke out of her "blonde bimbo" stereotype by just straight up making her own movie company and producing her own movies. I, Tanya just showcased her acting skills SO MUCH. She's a powerhouse as an actress, businesswoman, and human being. Just respectable in every way
“If you romanticize Joker and Harley, seek help,” Thank you! It always makes me sad that some people want to use an unhealthy relationship as the goal.
It's hot. It's gross, it's unhealthy, but it IS hot. Not goals though. When I was young, I was a bit of a Joker/Harley fangirl. I grew up with the animated series, was obsessed with Arlene Sorkin's voice acting ect... Read a lot of trashy fanfiction as a teen. But I think, myself and a lot of fans have matured as the character depiction has matured. And while I acknowledge what I found appealing about the Joker Harley relationship, I now find her stronger relationship with Poison Ivy in shows like the Harley animated series to be vastly more appealing. You grow up and learn that mutual respect, and deep friendship outshines an abusive clown kink.
You'll also notice, in suicide squad, the camera is VERY centered on Margots chest, whereas in birds of prey, the camera is centered on her face. Not to mention the insane push-up bra they very clearly had her wearing during suicide squad that looked physically uncomfortable, vs the pink brallete she was wearing throughout most of birds of prey which actually fit her well. 🤙
I personally think the wardrobe she had for The Suicide Squad was the best imo. Suicide Sqhad was a bit much. I'm not against acknowledging and pointing out that the human form is beautiful, especially when drawing attention is what the character is actually trying to do in any given moment, but I've never cared for the "sexy Deadpool" interpretation of Harley Quinn because that's just not what she was supposed to be. I think Birds of Prey treated her like an actual character and not just like eye candy, but her outfit before she just goes to the white shirt is a bit of an eye sore (it looked like the entire cast just raided Hot Topic). The Suicide Squad felt the most like Harley Quinn and actually worked for the context of what she was doing and would make sense for her to he wearing in those situations. It was both respectable and appealing at the same time imo.
@@Tyler_W Birds of Prey had some of the most practical and fun outfits for Harley Quinn. I really loved the confetti jacket. But the color scheme for The Suicide Squad fit her best, I agree. Red and black are Harley Quinn's signature color...And that dress with combat boots was everything. ❤
As a man I enjoyed watching suicide squad way more than BOP. She looked more sexy and badazz in suicide squad. Give it to feminists to ruin anything that's loved by the men. People do care about a sexy thor and sexy superman, that's why they have shirtless scenes. In sucide squad 2 there's a scene which Harley drools at a hot man in his trunk. They did not talk about that in this video cuz that goes against their feminist narrative.
I have histrionic personality disorder and for me, it feels more like being in a separate plane from other people if you're not talking to them or centered on in some way. It's like as soon as somebody stops including you in the conversation you literally fade out into a different dimension and you become the most depressed version of yourself; you feel worthless, invisible, unwanted. So whether it's shiny clothes, bright colors, or being loud and boisterous, the Brain will find ways to get the attention on you or to make sure that the attention can't leave you. It's awful, it's guilt inducing, and most of it is actually subconscious. We're not all sexual deviants with irritating personalities who just want to irk you 😟
That's a really good description. It helped me understand better. I appreciate you taking the time to explain it. Also I don't think you're all out to be annoying or are sexual deviants. Many other people don't either. 🙂
I don't think they meant it that way. A lot of time in psychology a disorder is described on what it looks like from the outside. You hear it a lot in ADHD circles where the description of ADHD is being hyperactive, or inability to pay attention. But there's really a lot more to it then that. I thought your description was really good. That's just not how most people learn about it, so that's never how it's described. From their description, I never got the idea that someone with histrionic personality disorder would be doing it on purpose. So what you've said makes a lot of sense. I'm sure people act like you're doing it on purpose a lot. Not everyone thinks that though.
I didn't take it this way at all. They're focusing on Harley and using histrionic personality disorder to explain her character not the other way around
so having attention makes you feel connected to yourself or else you kinda dissociate? /gen (im not assuming that you would do it on purpose, feels like something that got decided for you and you just get the consequences after. not trying to put any moral judgement on anything, just trying to understand more)
One of my favorite parts about Margot Robbie's Harley Quinn, is that her beginning as a psychologist isn't just a part of her origin story and then they never talk about it again. They reference it and have her use her education several times.
I mean, that's also in the harly quin show, the animated movie "batman and harly quinn" the comics... it would feel worse if they didn't use it sure. But it's a huge portion of harlies Personality in most mideast that isn't the og BTAS by Bruce Tim
She’s romanticizing the acid scene. In the comics, he led her to the factory while she was terrified. In the comics, she was so frightened that she was trembling above the acid when Joker pushed her in knowing that she couldn’t swim and letting her remain in the chemicals for several minutes as she was drowning. He drained the chemicals at the very last second and adapted her name from Harleen Quinzel to Harley Quinn. As Kaley Cucco (the current voice of Harley Quinn in the show Harley Quinn says in an episode before hitting Joker very hard with a bat) “You got Harley Quinn out of Harleen Quinzel. Nice work, genius!!!” WHAM-O!!!
I honestly hate the comics' addition of the acid scene. It removes what little agency the character had in her backstory. In the original take, there was no chemical plant scene, there was no attributing her insanity to a dip in Joker's toxins. She's just straight-up Stockholm Syndrome in effect, but also chose to do what she did of her own volition. _Mad Love,_ the Batman Adventures comic that details her origin, just has her fall for the Joker's schemes to make her pity him and trick her into believing that they had some sort of connection, such that she steals the Harlequin costume that would become her trademark, grabs a few weapons and some smoke bombs, and breaks him out of Arkham Asylum as his "new and improved Harley Quinn!" She's absolutely doing what she does of her own volition, to the point that Joker's expression when he sees her is straight "WTF?!" It's great, and it shows that she has at least some agency over her actions, rather than needing some kind of sensationalized "she must become just like he is, including the chemically induced insanity" origin tale.
@@Mokiefraggle I actually like how the cartoon handled it, they had the chemical vat story, but Harley is just like "Fuck this." and changes the memory to the day she broke free from the Joker and went "This is my origin story now."
I don’t think they romanticized the Harley jumps to the chemicals, they showed how deep she fell to the Joker. Which I loved, because it’s so tragic. Also when she asked Deadshot if he ever was in love and he said no, and that he would never will do the shit that he does if he could feel things like love. Like Deadshot is terrible because he’s terrible, and Harley is terrible because she fell in love with a terrible person
The line she said "they tell ya the music you like ain't real music at all" help me so much. It almost sad to admit. It was really hard for me to understand my last relationship was toxic until I heard this. My ex did that all the time. He constantly dismissed and deconstructed my music taste to the point I hated myself for even thinking of listening to music, I would be afraid to like music, any music. It just helped to hear it. It really helped me acknowledge and heal from it. This line still hits.
Yeah, they chuckled at the inclusion of the music taste gaslighting, but music is so deeply tied to who we are that if someone doesn't just dislike your music but actually devalues it repeatedly, it hits deep if you care about there opinion at all.
Yeah... I'm still learning that I didn't give my ex permission and "let him", that I put up with it in trying to keep him (I was worried he'd leave and was afraid of his anger issues)
There’s a channel that discusses the wardrobe choices for Harley between the movies. In the first movie she was dressing for Joker, in the following movies especially the second, she’s dressing for herself. She’s dressing more comfortable than sexy, more colors.
The fact that Alan started their commentary by saying “Margot Robbie. Thank you for existing” honestly just shows you how great the rest of it is gonna be
I don't remember the who said it but the best explanation I've heard for why her outfit in Birds of Prey feels more right is because it seems like something Harley would pick out herself, but the one in Suicide Squad looks like something someone put her in
And in the new suicide squad she is actually put in one! The whole long ass red dress thing. Makes the scene where she tears off it's part and puts on combat boots impactful, like this is the outfit she owns this time
it also does kind of lend itself to the stories because joker would have put her in these kind of clothes in suicide squad but she would choose the outfit for herself in birds of prey.
That and showing skin isn't the problem. It's the position, camera angles, and lingering shots. In Suicide Squad, Harley had to be either in a body position that was sexual or the camera had to zoom in on her sexual parts. Remove that and there were a lot of men who thought Harley's "character" was ruined despite there still being skimpy outfits. In their minds Harley was only there to make them Horny, not to be a believable character.
An example of how to portray this condition without overly sexualising the character is Angelina Jolie in Girl, interrupted. There's a scene where she's being overly sexual and flirtatious but our thoughts in that isn't "Wow she's so hot" and instead is "My god she needs some serious help". Angelina Jolies portrayal of Lisa Rowe remains one of my favourite performances of all time.
In terms of the diversity, I also like the fact that one of the women was also was a bit older, middle-aged in fact. She looked like a real person. Usually when films show 'diversity' you get the young stunning Black woman, the young stunning Latina, the young stunning Asian woman, etc....you can definitely tell this was directed by a woman!
@@technounionrepresentative4274 Rosie Perez was 54 or 55 when Birds of Prey filmed (turn 56 the year it was released.) Love seeing a middle-aged woman rock it on screen!
Margot Robbie is a great actress and luckily the perfect pick for Harley. In the first Suicide Squad she apparently had to deal with Jared Leto often improvising his lines that she never knew what he would say, but she reacts perfectly in character. I also grew up on Batman TAS and Margot Robbie reminds me of the animated Harley. The start of Birds of Pray is chaotic, but do keep in mind that the narration comes from Harley who is seriously messed up in her head and so is all over the place. I love that they kept the three biggest actors (as in performing the best) from the first Suicide Squad in the second one, as it would not have been so good without Margot Robbie(Harley), Viola Davis(Waller) and Joel Kinnaman(Brick Flag).
I couldn't imagine having to deal with Jared Leto... I get wanting to get into character, but at worst, I imagine that "method acting" just becomes an excuse to he an ass on the job and not actually act like a professional.
Also! Re: the clothes. The clothes in birds of prey actually Look Comfortable. Suicide squad is like.. it's a single rly tight layer and the shorts are way shorter and ridiculously tight. Like... they're in no way the same ammount of revealing. And that's not taking into account that the outfits in bop have actual personality and tells a story lol. Like i would wear that in a heartbeat i just think it's so cool!
I still remember this episode in Batman: The Animated Series where it showcased the toxicity and abusive nature of Joker and Harley's relationship on full display. All Harley wanted was a little attention and adoration from the Joker--she carries out his orders, dresses up sexy for him, and even tries to help him with work, even successfully abducting BATMAN so that Joker has a little less on his plate to deal with. But the Joker never once acknowledged, appreciated, or praised Harley's efforts the whole time, and was instead was enraged because 'she hurt his pride.' The episode doesn't show it, but off-screen you _hear_ Joker strike her, and Batman himself _wincing_ at the action. Everyone knows it takes a lot to faze the Batman, so to have the darkest, most undeterred superhero wince at Joker's abuse is enough to tell you how cruel and unfair this moment was for Harley. Yet even while Harley was hospitalized for her injuries, Joker sends her flowers, and Harley continues to live in that infatuation. I remember being truly heartbroken for Harley--how the Joker would lure her back in and continue his manipulative cycle all over again, and that Harley might never break free. It makes me glad and happy that current media are taking Harley's route in new directions, particularly when she chooses to move on from Joker and live for herself, and reinterpreting her as something more than just Joker's right-hand woman and plaything.
Do you remember which episode that was/what that episode was called? I’ve never watched the animated series, but that sounds interesting and heartbreaking
Didn't he also push her through a window during the episode? It was so shocking! I liked that they made a bunch of children aware of domestic abuse and to have empathy for victims, even when they choose to go back to their abusers. It was an awakening for me.
as an abuse survivor, this one really hits home. my ex referred to me as his Harley all the time, and even bought these ridiculous Harley/Joker rings for us to wear. i'm almost 6 years removed from it now, and looking back it's hard to believe HOW MUCH i put up with from him. i haven't been in a relationship since, because i'm terrified of them now. ETA: i'm absolutely in therapy right now, and have been for about 5 years. 💕
@frumiousalice that's the way dear! when you are ready to let someone else in again, it will be someone worthy of your time and affection. Don't rush it.
@@samiraspolidorio9623 thank you! i try to be patient with myself and not think of myself as "broken," because i know that now i'm ready for the *right* person, and i know which red flags to look for. ♥️
@@kuroinokitsune absolute no need to whatsoever! that's why I told her not to rush it. She is the one who said she's ready for when the right person comes along. I'm a happily single women and my safety is also my # 1 concern. I'd never dream to suggest any other path that is not safety and happiness strongly based on self-fulfillment. =)
I just realised why Harley was so angry when El Diablo revealed his backstory about accidentally killing his family. Her desire, as shown by Enchantress' visions, involves a normal life with the Joker, complete with children. In her eyes, he threw away what she wanted by destroying his loved ones.
He didn't throw it away. He lost control of his powers and they were killed in the housefire he started, not directly by his flames. There is a *HUGE* difference in throwing away your family by killing them. And accidentally killing them in an angry moment because he couldn't control his powers.
@@Juggtacula yeah but that won't make a difference to her. Either way he had what she wanted and ruined it so she'll either be angry with him for 'throwing it away' or she'll be angry with him for loosing control. Guess she could also be angry with herself for throwing the career that she'd put all her energy into for love and loosing control over herself for love so she'll be taking it out on him.
There's a quick scene in the movie where it references that they tried having kids and she got pregnant but then later in the pregnancy, she lost the baby and when they tried again she lost the baby again.
One thing I saw once about why Harley's "manic party girl" outfit feels different from the "Daddy's little monster" outfit is that in the "manic party girl" outfit, . The Joker didn't dress her like that because it was sexy - she dressed herself like that because she wants to dress like that. That's why it hits different - it's for her own sake.
I fell in love with the Harley Quinn character in Batman the animated series when she tried to go straight and everyone judged her so badly she asked Batman to lock her back up because she couldn't maintain her progress in society due to their treatment of her. She was trying, but she didn't have a support system beyond Batman's periodic appearance once he even realized she was trying. It was the first sign of depth and healing instead of being Joker's pawn or lapdog. Since then every DC move has been to keep her broken until this series. So it's been a long wait to see the side I longed to see get more attention.
I remembered one episode when she bought a dress, and the security tag went off. She panicked when all the clerk wanted to do was remove the security tag. It was interesting to me because Harley was on high alert, and couldn't calm down enough to understand the situation.
Kind of reminds me when Poison Ivy attempted to restart her life yet Batman couldn’t believe her efforts (in the end she did revert back to her old ways), which is contrast to Harley that made the effort to try to keep herself in check Batman had somewhat of a soft spot for Harley.
@@kate2create738 well Batman did witness firsthand the Joker's abuse towards Harley. So I would imagine that that might have been a reason why Batman had a soft spot for her. It was him showing sympathy towards a victim of abuse.
This also is kind of a commentary on how we treat excons in general. Many can't get a job, can't find a place to stay, etc. Idk what we expect them to so exactly.
@@reikun86 harleys day out:) my favorite episode and hard to watch but a very specific critique of the way people treat 'criminals' imo and a great episode for humanizing harley and pointing out some of her fears. Sad cos she's always...peppy lol but she comes across like a little girl in that episode
A defining moment of Harley Joker relationship, is in the episode Mad Love. When Joker push her a window and Harley say "It's my fault, i didn't get the joke." It really show how she's caught in a very abusive relationship and she internalize it.
Such a good episode, and I'm glad they more or less carried that over into the comics. That's the Harley I prefer. Although she's become a little more refined recently and got a bit more of a sensible evolution to her character, they still turned her into sexy Deadpool ever since New 52 started, and at its worst, it has focused on her sexuality at the expense of her entire psychology wbich is what actually makes her an interesting character.
It's interesting to me that Alan mentions the narration aspect of Birds of Prey as the thing that bothered him the most about the movie. Because while is a valid criticism of any movie, on this one, i find it incredibly fitting for the character. Harley is known to break the fourth wall, she's known to talk to herself (both things she does through the movie), but the narration here is used to establish that she's not a particularly good narrator, she lies sometimes, sometimes she sees it in a completely different way on her brain. Her narrator voice lets you know that. One scene you can see it, (and is glossed over on this and idk if its because they didn't catch it or 8t was lost on editing) is when Harley crashes the truck on ace chem, she sees fireworks and crazy colors, and yet in the immediate next scene, Renee Montoya is investigating and its pretty much normal fire and the place was even more dirty and uglier than Harley ever showed us. She romantizaced that place on her mind, so much that even in its destruction it looked beautiful. Anyway, just a thought. Also, fascinating to think about how Jonathan would treat Harley, with her being a psychologist too, and psychiatrist if memory serves me correctly. Doctors make terrible pacients and all that...
To me it is *literally* Harley getting to tell her own story, which is a form of emancipation too, and one that is still denied to too many unemancipated people (women, POC, queer people, you name it). She gets to tell her own story, without interruptions, without contradiction, without having to justify herself to others. This is (still!) revolutionary, and also a really good (I'd even say perfect) choice in the context of this movie and its message.
Narration is a way to push the story along, ahead isn't doing that, she's stating what's happening as it's happening and that's lazy Deadpool did his narration and it pushed the plot along cuz it was before things were happening, not as it's happening
One of the big defining moments that I knew BoP was written and directed by women was the hair tie but. It is so small, such a little detail, but holy crap hair in your face or on your neck when you’re sweating is a nightmare for a lot of us and it’s not represented enough 😂
People didn't hate it because it was for women. They hated it because instead of being a Birds of Prey film it was a Harley Quinn film with them shoved into the background. In the comics Cassandra Cain is the 3rd Batgirl but just some random thief in this. Comics Helena Bertinelli is The Huntress, a Punisher type vigilante who kills mafia families because one killed her family in a hit but she's another random in this. Black Canary isn't treated as an important DC heroine in this either. Instead of being a creepy serial killer who thinks life's meaningless and that he's freeing them by killing them Victor Zsasz was a generic hitman. And Black Mask who's a crazy mask obsessed gangster was just a guy who wanted a diamond.
@@samsignorelli Because it was a stupid scene. Why do we have to see an entire scene of all the female heroes? Does it serve any purpose? Does it impact the plot? Nope, it's just to say "hey guys look! We have STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS! Don't you love STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS?" Like bitch no I don't, not for that sole reason anyway. A lot of them had no personality and just tried to look cool. The only remarkable ones are Wanda, Pepper and Black Widow (WHO WASN'T INCLUDED IN THE SCENE!!!). The other ones had as much personality as a piece of bread.
I'm kinda with Lisa Nichols on this one. Quinn even in her backstory episode of the Batman: The Animated Series prior to meeting Joker is shown to have an aptitude for high energy, observation and quick thinking. Her issue is maladaptive coping strategies, yep, absolutely validation hunting and misuse of that energy. It's why I love her healing relationship with Poison Ivy as maladaptive as that can be sometimes. She has moved mre more into a heroine role over the years as writers get smarter at understanding what her backstory means. But they haven't dulled her light. She is gonna be large and attention grabbing. People can suck it. If she uses the platform that gives her to start being the hero? "Maybe they need to put their shades on"
Precisely, I love how complex of a character Harley is. You'd almost forget that she used to be a psychologist, with how insane she is now, but those little flashes of insight would remind you.
@@trinaq Perfect point Trina, it's so easy to forget that too. I like that her new animated series tries to reinterprete that with an almost psychologist mature Harley in the back of her head. I guess it also hits a personal note for me. My ASD and probable ADHD mean big energy it me. I worry that these conversations miss the bigger picture that what presents as attention grabbing, may be more a reflection of how that person copes with the world or maybe even how they experience it.
@@Firegen1 I know what you mean I have always loved Harley and it isn't because of her relationship with joker because I can't stand him or how when they are together but because I am ADHD and I have a lot in common with her with the quirky behavior my friends always say I am more like the characters like Harley, Mad Hatter, and others like that but I hate being the center of attention because I have anxiety yet it happens a lot with my friends because I'm comfortable with them and my energy levels so to those who don't know me think I want to be
I really hope that if they do bring Ivy into the DCCU that they can show this relationship! They even hint at Harley's bisexuality in the opening animation of Birds of Pray so it wouldn't be a stretch for them to find a meaningful relationship with one another!
@@Firegen1 great point once again! I can also relate to the adhd note. And also! I saw how the dudes in this video kept interrupting or talking over Lisa Nichole, and I'm like.... how is THAT not also considered attention seeking? I know that the director dude, pls forgive i dont remember their names atm, as identifies as having adhd, so like, that would make sense. Yet I feel disappointed that element wasn't (so far, i'm only half way through the video) addressed by the male two hosts
My favourite part of Harley's wardrobe in The Suicide Squad is that whenever she's dressed in clothes she picked out, it's much more practical than what she was wearing in Suicide Squad. I think Margot made sure she was wearing shoes she could do action scenes in without hurting herself as part of her contract after having to do so in Suicide Squad. Hell, in Birds of Prey I think she was wearing Converse sneakers in one of the fights.
As a early DC nerd; I actually never thought of how we can make Harley look less sexual, mostly because I always grew up with her being in a sexual costume, but also because it just seemed like it was part of her character, and I think a majority of DC fans didn't understand that "Hey, Harley needs to grow both in personality and in respect for herself. And this is how we are going to show it."
@@prescottmotley5225 Okay, let's ask her what she wants - Oh yeah! She's fake. A lot of superheroes' sexuality is "just a part of their character" when they're women, in a male dominated industry, we could probably think about where that makes sense and where it doesn't and adjust fanboy expectations accordingly. In her case it probably makes more sense than most.
@@prescottmotley5225 The thing is. She can 100% wear a sexy outfit that fits her character without it feeling/looking as though she's only wearing said outfit to be sexualised. Case in point, some of the outfits in Birds of Prey and a great example of how it can be "stereotypically sexy but not feel icky" is the fight scene with the wet white shirt. We all know that shirt is gonna be see-through when wieved up close and we all know Harley doesn't care and might even use it to her own advantage. Doesn't mean we need any shots of her boobs all wet and up close in that see-through shirt. In my opinion. A lot of the outfits in the first Suicide Squad movie could have worked if they'd just filmed it better and not made it all about "how can we make this fanservice"
One thing to say about the male gaze in the first movie was Jono got a lot right about the ownership bits and Sophie was spot on about certain shots like the focus on the butt and tiny shorts. I wanted to go more in-depth with the costumes because the ownership is definitely shown in the puddin collar, collarbone tattoo, and the daddy’s lil monster T-shirt. They are also shown in the hair like in the first movie the pigtails are long enough to pull on and the bangs frame her face in an attractive way whereas in the second movie they’re shorter and choppy, more fun for her and less conventionally attractive. To speak on the cinematography where in the first movie the frame seems to be centered on her chest but in the second the frames in the second movie it seems to center on her face or have more wide shots where the action takes center spotlight instead just her body or her clothes on her body. Fishnet leggings added and all three of you guys hit the nail on the head with the icky way she was shot in the first movie although yes her character lends herself to that attention seeking behavior and clothing choices. But looking at the second movie, it just shows that she can be sexy, attention seeking, or just playful without over sexualizing her and falling into a male gaze pit fall. All in all loved the commentary and analysis!💖
My favorite about Margot’s Harley is the line about how for someone to be her they would have to go through years of medical school because SHE IS A DOCTOR
I'm surprised that they didn't mention that Harley was a therapist before becoming a criminal. I'd love to see Jonathan's take on Harley Quinn's style as a therapist
Well, as a therapist, I can tell that we don't usually comment on other therapists style. Ethical code and all that. It's a movie and she's not a real therapist, of course, but it can become a habit. So probably that and the fact that there wasn't much to comment on. That part of the movie was focused on her relationships with Jocker, not on actual therapy itself.
@@BlueWoWTaylan I guess I remembered the animation at the beginning and thought they recognized her being a therapist. Def a missed opportunity. My bad.
@@tanyavasina2028 except the Internet Dads have a series of vids where Jono talks about different movie therapists, like Robin Williams in Good Will Hunting; It's a valid suggestion for this channel.
To add to the discussion about Harley's outfits, the hair should also be considered. In the two examples of the male directed films with Harley featured, she had those longer bangs and the long pigtails/hair which I cannot imagine would be good in a fight. Y'know... Easy to grab etc. In Birds of Prey she's got shorter hair and shorter bangs. There's even a point where a hairband is proffered during a fight which was fantastic.
As someone who has had several abusive relationships, Harley’s monologue (though hilarious at first) always leaves me teary. My exes did some of the stuff she mentioned. It’s so well acted and done
The animation is also really cool because that Harley’s origin. She was literally made for tv in Batman the animated series. I just adore that they brought it back to show her introduction montage.
I loved the video! I am deeply curious about the diagnosis ratio for histrionic personality disorder in men vs. women. Based on the explanation here, I have a hard time seeing a lot of men being diagnosed with it. Is there a male equivalent? If we're questioning patriarchy in cinema, I think it's fair to interrogate that in medicine too!
3:03 "I was the brains behind some of Mr. J's most greatest stunts." She's not just blowing smoke when she says that. In the same tv episode that Joker kicks Harley out a window he did it because she actually caught Batman. He was 100% going to die except the Joker didn't want him to die because that would be the end of their "fun" and if anyone was going to kill the Bat it would be him. He then tries to shoot Batman, guess how well that works. Batman even says that Harley came a lot closer than the Joker ever did to killing him.
Aaaah, that scene always gets me. When Harley is lying in the wreckage in the alley afterwards, all she can say is "my fault... I didn't get the joke." Such perfectly captured, heartbreaking behaviour of someone trapped in a manipulative relationship.
@@tbotalpha8133 Batman's even impressed Harley nearly killed him in the Mad Love comic and episode and mocks Joker by saying she came closer to killing him than Joker ever did.
Yup! In various other comic series (outside of Mad Love), it's shown Harley is actually the brains of the operation. However, she'll concede her ownership of the idea to make Joker happy. In semi-canonical comics and a few panels of actual comics, even Batman acknowledges Harley is the more capably intelligent of the two. Joker gets wrapped up in the game and may prioritize it over an actually feasible idea, whereas Harley will see a plan through to the end and have backups to the backup.
I remember a former friend from highschool who LOVED Harley and The Joker, and funnily enough she was one of the most toxic people I've ever met. She constantly went on about how she was like them and she was "crazy" and "psycho" like them. I ended up breaking off our friendship because of the way she treated one of our guy friends who she knew had a crush on her. When he told that he was okay with her liking other guys because he was starting to get over her, she kissed him "To prove that he wasn't" and the next day at school she was raving on about how she had held hands with her latest obsession (who was in a relationship at the time). Overall, I think, like The Joker (as she likes to compare herself) likes to be wanted and needed, even at the expense of other's feelings.
Well I really wonder what people like that would say about me who is poly. I would be totally fine with her seeing other people, but I really wonder if she would be fine with me being fine with that
@@Nerobyrne most likely she will get bored asap, I am somehow histrionic, much better after therapy, and a person that isn't all over me is pretty much boring to be with, I need to be surrounded by people that look at me with at least a little admiration . As he said, I get my craving for attention by giving it to other people, I kind of love bomb my gf (and pretty much everyone), but constantly, and I don't plan on stopping, so is not manipulation. But some people will see my relationship style as overbearing. Although people tend to like me because I am that guy that tells you your t shirt effing rocks!
I knew two very similar people (a couple). Sadly I spend my time with them for way to long. They always were cosplaying as Joker and Harley and said they would identify with them. It is so sad, that someone would even take them as relationship goals. But it is worse how they actually treated everyone. I was kinda in love with the girl and they forced me to do stuff I didn't want to do (not only with her but with him too). Glad, that I have a really healthy life now without any toxic people in it.
I hate how much this sounds like me in high school. I was super dumb and hurt and was an awful person to many people. I used to idolize that type of behavior cause I thought if I didn't fit in usually, maybe that would give me solace. Now I've grown and have to deal with the fact that I was a source of hurt for people I considered friends, which will haunt me forever.
I was diagnosed with histrionic disorder and when i was told that, I didn't quite understood the full of it. As years pass by I now i see it. Thank you for bringing attention to this personality disorder, its been amazing to watch yours vids and learn from it
@@hagelslag9312 I didn't. I've been to psychologists and psychiatrists my whole life and when i came to a certain age they got that diagnosis among others. To be honest sometimes I react badly when I think about it too much. It was a shock, at first, I always knew there was something ''wrong''
Same here was diagnosed while hospitalized a long with BPD the phycologist there wouldn't tell me what it meant and seeing multiple counselors that wouldn't explain what they were, and have practically given up on counseling, it's sad to get generalized answers from a UA-cam therapist that I should have gotten from a therapist that I can see. I understand that there are a good number of therapists that either don't feel it's necessary to explain the diagnosis because patients get hung up on it, but that is how I would like to been able to process it so I can be self aware of the behaviors.
I don't know what they are talking about the screen play was brilliant! As someone with complex PTSD and who works in mental health, it is such a good depiction of the lived experience of many women escaping abusive relationships. The narration reflects the inner dialogue so well that I have experienced and wouldn't be the same movie without it. I loved and felt seen by the "disjointed" story telling - this is how trauma is experienced and processed in the mind and body. It's not a linear experience and the storytelling helps the viewer to not only see that but feel the sense of confusion. To be great art helps people to feel other's experience not just showing it.
PLEASEEE, do a Villain therapy for Frollo in Hunchback of Notre Dame - I've rewatched this movie as an adult and his character shook me (and I can't help but wonder how much disney paid to keep this movie at a G rating)
I just want to say...thank-you so much for not relying on the auto-generated captions, I super, SUPER appreciate it. I'm not deaf or HoH in a physical sense, but I do have issues with auditory processing. Also, the deaf gain in things like "Internet Dad and Sophie:..." is really delightful. Kudos to your captioner!
I think the narration works cause Harley is batshit crazy and she's constantly reminding herself what she's done or what shes currently doing. It feels very in line with who she is and how she functions.
“What you really need, is to give that to other people” Wow. I feel completely validated, not even a minute in. This is EXACTLY where I’m at. I’ve had a pretty exhausting life, and I’m not even 40. But I’ll be damned if I’m not going to show everyone I meet with the exact level of kindness all people should be afforded. Which is not something I can quantify but to say that everyone deserves to be treated like a human being who wants to be happy and taken seriously.
I have a philosophy in life not treat others as I would want to be treated. Because sometimes you don't feel worthy of good treatment. I have always thought instead to treat others the way I would want someone to treat my grandparents. I have really found that this helps me with my own self worth and self esteem.
@@wifeofsauron1658 My personal philosophy is that everybody should receive a base level of kindness and respect as a default. Including myself. I start at being a decent human being to everybody and recognizing them as people, not just placeholders to give me what I need in the moment. Some of them will prove they don't deserve it. Some will be uplifted by it. Some will start off not deserving it, but will raise themselves up to meet your expectations.
@@AndaraBledin I feel like I have upset you in some way, but I'm not sure how. If you could tell me that would be really helpful. Edit: sorry, I'm only asking because I'm autistic and sometimes I struggle with interactions and what people mean. So my confusion is in whether you are just sharing your personal experience and philosophy or if I did something wrong. And I hope I'm not implying you did something. It's totally a me problem. 😊
@@wifeofsauron1658 Not at all. I was merely building on what you said and adding in my own take. Sorry if I came across as negative in any way; that wasn't my intent.
@@AndaraBledin no you definitely didn't!!! I'm sorry I made you feel that way. Sometimes I verbalize things in a way that doesn't make since to others and a lot of misunderstandings happen. So whenever I'm unsure if I said something wrong I like to ask. It also helps learn and helps me interact with people better. So I really appreciate you helping me. 😁
I know that she is a "Literally Me" character, but I love her so much. I don't love her with the Joker, but I love her by herself and with her friends. She is so fun I swear.
Harley Quinn and Wonder Woman have something in common, when it comes to "the male gaze". In "Wonder Woman", Diana's body is shown as a powerful weapon. Though we do see closeups of her thighs, and a barely-there glimpse of her butt, it's meant to demonstrate how strong she is, almost like a big cat about to pounce. In "Justice League", however, it's the exact opposite. There's one particular shot, which makes me sick. She's just having a conversation with one of the male characters, but everything else is slightly out-of-focus, except for her butt. The camera holds that position for several seconds. It's gone from, "Wow. She's so strong, and that strength enhances her beauty", to, "Wow. She has a great butt." It's no wonder that some guys are threatened, when the idea of "the male gaze" is called out. It's the same principle behind why the kiss between Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, and Madonna WASN'T blurred out for TV, but the kiss between Adam Lambert and his male drummer WAS. (7/19/2022)
While the Birds of Prey narration was definitely choppy and all over the place, which was irritating at times, I appreciated that it seemed to reflect Harley Quinn's chaotic personality. It was like a peek into how her train of thought works.
I’ve been positive I have histrionic personality disorder so I was really really scared to watch this video for a long time but watching this brought a good sense of perspective… thanks you guys
Harley's character arc is truly exemplarly of abusive relationships, male gaze, and female empowerment. Harley begins abused and neglected by her dad, and thus she seeks out male approval. Joker uses her, pulling her into what he wants, using her for his goals, and everything about her shows that. She wears "property of Joker" on her clothes, gets tattoos which symbolizes "forever," and he pimps her out for everyone to see. So when Harley acts overly sexual in front of male guards or her teammates, we can thank the fricking male director for exemplifying the fact that Harley is nothing but a sex toy for the men in SS, nothing but something hot to look at, something to be desired. She was a prisoner in Arkam Asylum, she wears a dog collar for Joker, and she doesn't have any protection for her body. So in BOP, she gets dumped, or more literally, she gets set free, and finally is able to give herself protection and freedom. She gets coverups on her tattoos, she wears more comfortable shorts and bras, and she gets her own dog (hyena). She even cuts her hair, removing the Joker colors of infantile pink and blue for a more mature blonde and length, which removes her from a pedofilic gaze and from the little nice girl silhouette. Y'all do not realize how even hairstyles can be sexualized. The "sexy school girl" look comes with pigtails. It's awful. But where Harley of SS would probably have worn a dress with a slit and lots more cleavage, BOP Harley wears a pink pantsuit, showing that she is her own woman.
Some women wear revealing outfits and pigtails to look sexy for the male gaze and when they're bored with the male gaze they start to complain that the male gaze is awful and become feminists.
I'm writing a character with HPD. I'm glad you're looking at this so that more people can be aware of the disorder. Honestly, I'm trying so hard to write the disorder realistically.
@@chizzieshark The only person who diagnosed Amber Heard with HPD, was a psychologist paid by Johnny Depp who had vested interest in making his ex wife look 'crazy'. The same therapist admitted to signing a document promising to diagnose Heard with BPD and HPD, months before she even met her. A much more qualified and competent therapist, Dr Dawn Hughes, disagreed with the diagnosis. So did most of the therapists who had worked with Heard prior to this. Disgusting how personality disorders were weaponized by Depp's team.
same here!! i have this dramedy i’ve been wanting to write for ages that i’m super passionate about where the main character has HPD and this video only makes me want to write it even more!
I grew attached to Harley Quinn's character because when I watched Birds of Prey with my boyfriend, it was the first time he ever looked at a female character and told me "Oh yeah, you do that too". That's the kind of non-sexualize side of women that you normally don't see in movies, like the whole scene of her messy break-up.
I think the narration in this Birds of Prey works beautifully. I think the repetition and constant stating the obvious are what make it great. For example, Harley stating that she'll start the story wherever she wants (4 minutes ago) or when she reminds the audience why every thug in town hates her (eventually ending with the eggplant emoji). It's great comedic relief, and I think it helps to highlight the fact that the character isn't all mentally there. People with mental disorders can repeat themselves and state the obvious as they try to make sense of things in their mind. Also, I think on a feminist level, having Harley narrate the story gives her a voice that she hasn't previously had. By being able to be in her innermost thoughts, the audience gets a glimpse of a character that isn't just living to be with the Joker, but one who is trying to heal from trauma, and who often has justified reasons for her insane actions (even if the reasons are also insane).
"Male Gazey" films are both an example of the problem and an enabler of the problem when it comes to women and how they are looked at by men. When I was younger, I started developing a large chest early (13) and it seemed that I got a lot of attention from guys because of it. This made me feel that the only thing important about me was my looks. I could have gone one of three ways: ride the female performance train and dress and use makeup to enhance that perception and get more attention from men or run from attention by avoiding dressing feminine and using makeup, or lastly, form a mixture of both and developed both my outward look and the inward idea of myself. I chose the second since I didn't want to be seen as "only my body parts" but wanted to be seen as having a brain. It's tough on a young girl, growing up in a religious household to choose the third option because your family is telling you how sinful you are, how you are not as important as a male, and that you are only here to serve others. It was easier to choose to avoid any acknowledgment of my femininity by avoiding feminine things.
We sexualize the human body too much, kids deal with these things too and should be respected/ viewed as kids even if they have secondary secs characteristics. We don’t accept the human body, we shame and sexualize it. And people aren’t taught it’s a normal thing. We’re taught tits are sexual and now There’s no difference between teen and adult tits in society’s eyes 🤢🤮 looking at euphoria
I was terrified of being sexualized so I had those two options two and chose the second, I also tried to gain weight and just wear baggy clothes and just didn't care for my hair or anything. I was afraid if I didn't something would happen and someone would harm me.
Funny the "feminist" on the panel who was against male gazing commented on Silvio Luna's "Tiniest butt". Pluse has anyone actually seen the comics they are full of sexualized images of Harley, (like almost all comics do women) not sure why they expect different when translated to film. Its human nature and even the panelist looked straight at the guy's butt and commented. Lol. I am not a feminist but they annoy me profoundly.
Thanks for that call out about how romanticized Joker and Harley are, it always strikes me as weird that they get that idealized treatment when it's an unhealthy relationship.
Harley's story mirrors Wonder Woman's somewhat. Both are motivated by love, but while Diana's love for Steve inspired her to become a hero, Harley's love for the Joker turned her into a villain. Diana is mentally stable, while Harley is chaotically insane. Diana's love for Steve is pure, while Harley struggles to see that the Joker is manipulating her.
I get that you're trying to say Diana's love is more pure, but I would dispute that. I think you were trying to say the love from their prospective partners was different not the love that they had for their partners.
Wonder woman isn't motivated by love in the least, which is one of the reasons I like her character. Her motivation is a sense of duty to the world. I believe what you're trying to say is that wonder woman's love is more pure.
Y’all helped me during my nursing psych final bc I did not remember anything about personality disorders on the final but I was watching this the night before and not studying… Anyways it did help clarify some things while entertaining, hope that amuses y’all lol
I found this channel last month and I’ve seen every episode at least twice now. It’s really helped me in my own relationships and enjoyment of art and media. Thank you internet dads!
Not just you amigo, I've applied a lot of it to my relationship with my wife and with my own work relationships. Just to let you know you are definitely not the only one who is finding they can apply it in their everyday lives- damn glad to have found them too. Edit: Added the last sentence
These guys, Elliot Carthy, the counselor, and psych2go kickstarted everything for me. Now I've functionally created the best environment I can for myself and others and work to maintain it, even if you can't get therapy, the lessons these guys provide for free were vital to me and just maybe might make a lifeline for others. I wasn't to the point where I needed actual therapy to make it out alive, but I was as close as it gets. Someone like me, I just needed the right information, and I know that's not everybody, in fact, a lot of the people I share what I've learned with reject their potential growth, but it still needs to exist. Thank you Jono, thank you Alan, you were my parasocial jump-start to healthier constructs and mindsets and communication and you and Elliot changed something as fundamental to my material expression as my writing for the better. Also, kishotenketsu is the savior of conflict-averse writers everywhere, you can't fight me cause I'm right.
I enjoyed the narration because its more like a comic book experience. You can see what's going on, on the page, but you're reading what's going on too. Not only that Harley is amazing at 4th wall breaks, so it feels like she's hearing the narration and repeating what it says in a form of 4th wall breaking
I’m not the biggest fan of Birds of Prey but I can’t deny that’s it’s a very fun movie if you don’t take it too seriously😆 Margot Robbie belongs among Hugh Jackman as Wolverine, Robert Downey Jr as Iron Man and Ryan Reynolds as Deadpool in the list for actors born to play comic book roles
I think she really carried the movie. When Alan said that the bits where she just narrates were great because SHE is great, I couldn't agree more. If this was a book I'd throw it in the trash because he's right, it's terribly written. But it's like Robie turns crap into actual gold
@kshamwhizzle honestly I think they are our modern pantheon. The Greeks had the gods, Hercules, and Odysseus, with their crazy larger than life stories, we have comic books characters and super hero movies. Things to aspire to and also be entertained by, but ultimately they're just stories that reflect our cultural values back to us. And whenever the stories are told in a new way that reflect a change in cultural values, people find that threatening.
I loved this video! the "if you romanticize Joker and Harley, seek help" part is so true. I never understood how anyone could view them in such a way or idolize them. On that note... because this is part of the psychology of a hero/villain therapy series, I would literally die if you'll ever post a video about Wolverine/Logan
I've watched the cartoons and read the comics too, her story is so tragic. She deserves so much better. Got abusive family, people taking advantage of her, abusive partners, etc. So I'm glad, at least in some movies, she got friends who cares about her.
7:00 somebody pointed out that Harley’s uniform isn’t a uniform at all - looks more like she had to strategically tear a blanket or pillowcase, likely because the perverted guards threw her in the cage without clothing, and only gave her a uniform later when Waller was coming to inspect.
If we're making assumptions without info I'll submit mine. She had a uniform and tore it up most likely. That would also be more consistent with her character.
You play it as a clip but it gets overlooked. In The Suicide Squad she is really touched Rick Flagg mounts a rescue mission. Probably the one guy she met who treats her well and is platonic.
I've known 2 people with HPD. One was a friend and my dad. (and yes they do think they're much closer with people than they are. I hung out with this girl like twice and she started saying we're best friends and showing up at my house) As far as I know, my dad was never diagnosed with it. But he exhibits almost if not all the signs. He was very uncomfortable with not being the center of attention. If you were talking about anything he'd interject and make things all about himself. I mean he'd even get jealous of the attention his own kids would get. Apparently as a kid his parents often favored his older brother. So he's always been attention seeking. When his brother died and I was born, my mom and grandma (his mom) doted on me. He was incredibly jealous. Also, He'd always do provocative behavior or act inappropriately which could be embarrassing when you got older. His emotions were all over the place, he was suggestible. We would always have to make him think things were his idea, it wasn't hard. Dramatic etc. He was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and I believe BPD. But I personally think he should've also been diagnosed with histrionic PD as well.
Great video as always! I just want to shout out to Sophie for pointing out the water fight in Birds of Prey. When I saw it in theaters, I actually groaned and went...okay here we go, stereotypical wet t-shirt fight that is going to be super sexualized...and the movie was doing so well. And then I was shocked that they didn't. And it was such a great fight scene with the way they used the water.
The 2016 Suicide Squad reducing Harley Quinn to eye candy wasn't just "icky," it was a full-blown character assassination. They kept the needy and sexual aspects of her personality and seemingly forgot every other significant character trait that she had.
I love the fact that the writers in DC actually cut off pretty quickly the Harley Joker romance. Like you can say it’s because Jared Leto is fired but also it’s not to romanticize them and we obviously can’t see Harley get abused again and again and again by the Joker. Like…they made her her own character
I love that too! It's great for one movie and the buildup, but more than that is excessive for even the viewers to have to see. I don't think I could stand watching a character be abused for 2-3 movies in a row and never escape the abuse. Even worse when a bunch of people think its relationship goals (which I think is purely for the appeal of Harley and Joker being iconic characters-I think/hope more people would recognize it as bad if it wasn't for that). I think the old batman cartoons did better about showing the relationship as abusive. People still like the villian characters, but I don't recall very many people aspiring to have that relationship like the do with this variation of the story.
I would like you guys to talk about having traits of personality disorders but still not being fully diagnosed with the disorder. You started getting into it when you talked about how you strongly seek out for attention and validation. It can be very helpful for other to understand what a disorder really means- the difference of having some traits vs a disorder that affects every part of one’s life.
Growing up, I noticed a lot of teens romanticize Joker and Harley. I feel like I myself was there too, but eventually (and thankfully) I realized it was incredibly toxic. It's still a good story and I absolutely love Harley and Joker as characters, but not as relationship goals
Because it's a fantasy/entertainment and it's not real, just like with Twilight or 50 Shades of Gray for example. People wouldn't actually want to be in a relationship like that in the real world, of course. There are people who fantasize about being robbed by a really hot person or something of the sort, but that doesn't mean they want that to actually happen.
@@Pumpkin0_0 People do actually want to be in relationships like that. It can stem from other issues, but it isn't healthy and is dangerous to romanticize even in fantasy/entertainment.
@@kasulazavala7957 I'm not talking about exceptions. People who would ever be in a relationship like that will get into one either way without having to watch entertainment. Just like there are millions and millions of gamers, but you don't see mobs of gamers acting out the videos games they play or ever truly wanting to be in such unhealthy situations. You're talking about people who need help, because it's not a movie that's going to make someone actually desire to suddenly be in a dangerous, loveless relationship just like that, especially when it's not merely role-playing in a healthy way with a partner. Two entirely different matters.
Harley definitely finds healing through connecting with others. Even when her "extra" personality intimidates people at first, the later two movies see people who have suffered difficult pasts as well accepting and warming up to her as well. She usually doesn't judge others from the Squads or Birds of Prey team and therefore becomes more understood and validated.
Thx for discussing this character and inviting Sophie to speak on feminism (/in film). But I noticed that you cut her off quite a few times. Surely not with malintent but I noticed that in the other episode with her, too. You sadly have a bit of a tendency to cut your guests off. I get that it can be tough to adjust to a guest's speaking pattern, especially when our two internet dad's are such an amazing duo, but you bring guests to give their opinions and the viewers (at least moi) would like to hear them out.. Aside from this little critique: I absolutely love this channel! Your videos are fantastic and entertaining while teaching us interesting stuff about both psychology and cinematography! Lots of Love to the entire team!
And sometimes cut her off to say the same thing she was saying. It's like I'm back in corporate meetings all over again, having to point out to my boss (in private later, for his ego) how his female execs never got credit for their ideas, and having receipts (being the official minutes keeper) 🙄
The opening narration of the Birds of Prey movie, I'd say the whole point there is that she's still in the histrionic phase. She's narrating things unnecessarily because she needs to make sure we, the viewers, are paying attention to her and only to her. Like when I saw the movie I wasn't thinking "oh this is her histrionic personality disorder talking" or anything but it immediately characterizes Harley as the kind of person who *gives* that kind of superfluous narration - as well as give you insight in the way she thinks about herself and the things that happen to her, which, with Harley Quinn, is not always obvious (damn, she really, really loved that sandwich). So the narration in this movie is not meant to tell you what's happening, what's going to happen, or some kind of background information you really need to know but they couldn't show you. It's a) true to character, and b) I do believe a part of it is just there for fun (damn, she really, really loved that sandwich).
@@thefangirlingpuellamagi3345 Very valuable addition to this discussion, yes, I learned so much. If you're such an expert, maybe you could make your contribution just the slightest bit actually useful by telling me which word I could use instead to express my belief that the Harley from Suicide Squad (can't survive when she doesn't have all eyes on her, codependent relationship with an abusive man because any semblance of love is better than nothing) evolves and becomes different by the end of Birds of Prey (has rejected a man based on principle, no longer needs all attention on her because she has friends now). According to Merriam Webster, these are two different 'phases' in her personal development, so what word should I use instead, oh All-Knowing Semantics Guardian of UA-cam?
The reason for the monologuing between her thoughts and what she says aloud is that it is a major thing in comic books: you’ll have the internalized dialog of the main character and then the things they voice both written out on the page
I just discovered this channel this week. There have been a lot of references that make me happy, especially the Buffy, Angel, Firefly stuff. But when you said, "Gotta have the blue hair," and dropped that Strong Bad image, I knew you were my people. LOVE MY PEOPLE!
I love it when Sophie joins in and gives her perspective. I wish she’d do it a bit more often too. The Chads of the world might not like it but they need to hear it
I just want to bring to the table how much I appreciate Sophie being a part of episodes. I love the points she brings to the discussion and her understanding of film language is top-notch.
Agreed. I hesitate to say this because I’m worried I’ll get a lot of hate for it, but the guys interrupt her a lot, and there’s a lot of times I want to hear her finish what she’s saying but she gets talked over. Clearly they do really value her opinion and are trying to undo a lot of socialized behavior to talk over or for women, but I hope they also see it during editing so they can keep trying to improve. I know you guys are enthusiastic about the material and oftentimes are agreeing with her, and I also know that interrupting is really common in people with ADHD which I think one or both of them has said they have? (Sorry if that’s incorrect) So I’m not trying to be ableist. But just based on seeing how often Alan or Johnathan get to completely finish their thoughts, vs. Sophie getting interrupted mid-thought was kind of telling that there’s still room for improvement when bringing better representation into these discussions. Hope you guys know the critique comes with love because I think you guys actually care about this stuff, and if I thought you were just sexist d-bags I wouldn’t waste my time and energy commenting.
@@oreonighthawk I patiently scrolled down the comment section to finally find someone bringing this up! This comment should be higher :( I agree. And I also thought that maybe guys feel a bit awkward. I personally would be very awkward inviting someone of a different social group (in this case meaning gender) to publicly talk about their perspective as a member of said group. Especially when in the context of the conversation I am in some way privileged. I’d feel big responsibility to not be a jerk, create a space for the guest to speak their mind and at the same time be engaging in our conversation. Also I’d stress over a thought that if I try too hard I’d come up as condescending which would definitely not be my intention. As the result with all this mess in my head I’d be very awkward and loose the ability to hold a naturally flowing conversation.
@@oreonighthawk Odd... what I got from it, is that she's not that great at putting herself out there, and the guys are doing most of the work. There are times when she comes alive with a topic, and they mesh well, but when the guys are doing 'all' the talking, she's more closed off and just kind of there. Sort of figured it was her personality type. I'm the same way, there are times when I want to listen and process where what other people say, and will be quiet. Then other times I'm animated and have a lot to say. ... Think you guys are just being too sensitive about it because she's a woman to be honest. Not everyone can just talk the whole time about every part of a topic. When she talks, the guys are respectful and stop to listen to her, but they're not going to sit around saying nothing until she's ready to go.
I actually think the voiceover had a purpose and fulfilled that purpose. It's part of what you mentioned, she thinks she's closer in relationships than she actually is. If she knew there was an audience(whoever that may be) she'd feel that way with them too and want to have that connection.
This hit me right in the face. My younger sister checked every one of these boxes growing up, and all the men she dated (and eventually married) were toxic pieces of garbage. WOW. Her behavior makes so much more sense now.
@@whynot07 I feel empathy for both of them. Having to care for someone with a mental illness is taxing and having one yourself is a struggle in and of itself. It somewhat reminds me of when people generalize people with BPD as inherently abusive. Suffering from something doesn't make a person inherently insufferable. These people really need help instead of being told there's something inherently wrong with them as a person because they have a personality disorder. The disorder isn't you.
Sofie saying that "any movement that a woman of color is making in the industry is a movement for all women of color", in reference to how the producer is Asian and she is . It means so much for me. Being Asian who grew up in the 90s, I feel so self conscious when I say that black actresses meant so much for me. Especially black women who were leads or main supporting character like Whoopie, Brandy, Whitney Tia and Tamerra and Karyn Parsons, seeing them showed me that how strong, funny, charming, beautiful, playful, and how vocal poc women could be. It sounds silly, but most women in my family and community drilled in my head that I had to keep a low profile to get people to like me and for me to get on in life, don't argue. don't speak too loud, don't be rude, don't make jokes, be pretty but not too pretty etc. Meanwhile these actresses are portraying these characters with so much energy, confidence, intelligence, leadership, empathy with actions, sass and elegance, it was so refreshing and made me think that I wanted to be like that too, to be able to speak my mind, crack jokes, sing when I want to sing, dance when I wanted to dance, and be an active part in a discussion, and choose how I wanted to show my looks and personality based on my mood. I didn't see myself represented in movies or shows for years, but having diversity in these shows were so helpful to getting me to explore my personality for myself.
This illness drives me nuts (if you'll forgive the pun) because both my parents have it and it made my childhood kind of miserable since it isolated me quite a bit. My dad would drag me everywhere with him since he needed constant attention and constant validation and didn't like being alone for even the length of a car ride so he'd take me with him even to places like his drug dealing friends house and he'd leave me in the car, sometimes for an hour or more, in the dark at night while he BS'ed with his friends. My mom was a chaotic mess since she takes massive risks just like my dad but she's not that bright so she crashed and burned constantly, sometimes very literally crashing and/or burning in the case of her dozens of drunk driving instances, she'd leave me for long stretches of time often because she was off on a bender or doing stupid shit. Both have faked suicide attempts for attention and one time when my mom wanted attention she told my school and the rest of the family that I had talked about and attempted suicide (I hadn't, I was like 11 or 12, and didn't have a history of depression so not prime candidate for suicidal behavior) which basically made the rest of elementary school hell since now they thought I had a dangerous mental illness.
Thank you for calling out the romantization of Harley and Joker's relationship. Movies aside, their story is so tragic and terrifying I honestly don't get why people think they're cute together.
Can we all agree that Margo is a treasure . Shes an angel for blessing us with her talents. If she wants to be in a bunch of random movies as Harley I will gladly eat it up
I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on HPD as a diagnosis and some of the controversy relating to how it's overdiagnosed in women... I've seen some clinicians claim HPD is actually just a version of BPD that women tend to fall under because of how we're socialized and how our behaviors are portrayed. But I've also seen some claims that it is an independent, different diagnosis that is just way underdiagnosed in men.
I've met women diagnosed with BPD and it's not the same even just experiencing. I've also met women I suspect of histrionic disorder (based on the diagnostic criteria) and they further prove that point to me.
As a lesbian (aka both a gay and a girl), Harley is WAY sexier in BoP because it's easy to tell she's wearing clothes and styles SHE LIKES. They match her loud, colorful personality, they're comfortable, they're not all about looking perfect or having things seem effortless, and they're really just all about announcing who *she is* to everyone. If BoP Harley was flirting with me, I would absolutely go for it; if SS Harley was flirting with me I would feel like she was doing it for show or with some ulterior motive (I mean, I might still go for it because it's Margot Robbie, but I'd have a lot more questions about the sincerity of it.) In the earlier parts of the movie she's not quite there yet, but she does eventually find her way to just doing sincerely what *she* wants to do, which is one of the hottest qualities any woman can have IMO. I don't think men are generally quite aware just how often women do things we don't actually want to because we feel like we're supposed to, or we don't think anyone else will do it, or we're pressured into it by someone we care about, whether said person is intentionally manipulative or not. And obviously this can and does affect anyone, but it's pervasive in subtle societal ways against women that I don't know if men even realize sometimes.
It would be super cool to see you react to Harley's relationship with Ivy in the Harley Quinn animated series. See if you think that is a healthy relationship or not. It obviously starts out on not so great footing but I'd love to see if the development is healthy or not.
I LOVE SOPHIEEE!! The conversations around the impact of Birds of prey and the male gaze and her character is such a big topic and ik it would be imposible to get in one video but kudos to yall for trying. Another great video
Watching this after reading She-Hulk opinions and reviews was perfect. Totally feels like many people have Histrionic Personality Disorder 😆 you guys are great 🥰🤩
As a friend of mine recently said: "If you're not fed love with a silver spoon, you learn to lick it off knives."
Have to say, that resonated with me on a whole other level.
Its a Lauren Eden quote
Oh my ouch.. I'm gonna be crying the rest of the night that was too close to home thanks for that! 🧡🦇
Damn 🤯
That is an AMAZING way to put it
I'm leaving a comment so that if someone likes my comment, I will remember this quote
I love that Margot Robbie though broke out of her "blonde bimbo" stereotype by just straight up making her own movie company and producing her own movies. I, Tanya just showcased her acting skills SO MUCH. She's a powerhouse as an actress, businesswoman, and human being. Just respectable in every way
I love and stan margot robbie so much, she is such a role model
I love that she did, but am sad that she needed to
She’s a real powerhouse. 🙌🏽
@@ApequH someone has to be the first to break ground for others to build on it.
Respectable in every way, yes, she’s a queen.
“If you romanticize Joker and Harley, seek help,”
Thank you! It always makes me sad that some people want to use an unhealthy relationship as the goal.
Yeah, I got that. As long as so many have crappy upbringings and poor boundaries, it's always going to happen.
It's hot. It's gross, it's unhealthy, but it IS hot. Not goals though. When I was young, I was a bit of a Joker/Harley fangirl. I grew up with the animated series, was obsessed with Arlene Sorkin's voice acting ect... Read a lot of trashy fanfiction as a teen. But I think, myself and a lot of fans have matured as the character depiction has matured. And while I acknowledge what I found appealing about the Joker Harley relationship, I now find her stronger relationship with Poison Ivy in shows like the Harley animated series to be vastly more appealing. You grow up and learn that mutual respect, and deep friendship outshines an abusive clown kink.
@@bridgetcooney5085 You sound like you grew with the characters, a lot of people don't unfortunately
The thing is, they are never seen as people to aspire to.
The creators know this is a toxic relationship.
In a world where everyone wants to be like Joker & Harley, be like Steve & Terri Irwin.
You'll also notice, in suicide squad, the camera is VERY centered on Margots chest, whereas in birds of prey, the camera is centered on her face. Not to mention the insane push-up bra they very clearly had her wearing during suicide squad that looked physically uncomfortable, vs the pink brallete she was wearing throughout most of birds of prey which actually fit her well. 🤙
I personally think the wardrobe she had for The Suicide Squad was the best imo. Suicide Sqhad was a bit much. I'm not against acknowledging and pointing out that the human form is beautiful, especially when drawing attention is what the character is actually trying to do in any given moment, but I've never cared for the "sexy Deadpool" interpretation of Harley Quinn because that's just not what she was supposed to be. I think Birds of Prey treated her like an actual character and not just like eye candy, but her outfit before she just goes to the white shirt is a bit of an eye sore (it looked like the entire cast just raided Hot Topic). The Suicide Squad felt the most like Harley Quinn and actually worked for the context of what she was doing and would make sense for her to he wearing in those situations. It was both respectable and appealing at the same time imo.
@@Tyler_W Birds of Prey had some of the most practical and fun outfits for Harley Quinn. I really loved the confetti jacket. But the color scheme for The Suicide Squad fit her best, I agree. Red and black are Harley Quinn's signature color...And that dress with combat boots was everything. ❤
If we weren't so busy dressing for others, we'd be a lot more comfortable and get a lot more done. 😂
As a man I enjoyed watching suicide squad way more than BOP. She looked more sexy and badazz in suicide squad. Give it to feminists to ruin anything that's loved by the men. People do care about a sexy thor and sexy superman, that's why they have shirtless scenes. In sucide squad 2 there's a scene which Harley drools at a hot man in his trunk. They did not talk about that in this video cuz that goes against their feminist narrative.
I wish someone was brave enough to bring back the harlequin suit
I have histrionic personality disorder and for me, it feels more like being in a separate plane from other people if you're not talking to them or centered on in some way. It's like as soon as somebody stops including you in the conversation you literally fade out into a different dimension and you become the most depressed version of yourself; you feel worthless, invisible, unwanted. So whether it's shiny clothes, bright colors, or being loud and boisterous, the Brain will find ways to get the attention on you or to make sure that the attention can't leave you. It's awful, it's guilt inducing, and most of it is actually subconscious. We're not all sexual deviants with irritating personalities who just want to irk you 😟
That's a really good description. It helped me understand better. I appreciate you taking the time to explain it. Also I don't think you're all out to be annoying or are sexual deviants. Many other people don't either. 🙂
I don't think they meant it that way. A lot of time in psychology a disorder is described on what it looks like from the outside. You hear it a lot in ADHD circles where the description of ADHD is being hyperactive, or inability to pay attention. But there's really a lot more to it then that.
I thought your description was really good. That's just not how most people learn about it, so that's never how it's described. From their description, I never got the idea that someone with histrionic personality disorder would be doing it on purpose. So what you've said makes a lot of sense. I'm sure people act like you're doing it on purpose a lot. Not everyone thinks that though.
I have histrionic personality disor... nah bitch you are just selfcentered and very very privileged
I didn't take it this way at all. They're focusing on Harley and using histrionic personality disorder to explain her character not the other way around
so having attention makes you feel connected to yourself or else you kinda dissociate? /gen
(im not assuming that you would do it on purpose, feels like something that got decided for you and you just get the consequences after. not trying to put any moral judgement on anything, just trying to understand more)
One of my favorite parts about Margot Robbie's Harley Quinn, is that her beginning as a psychologist isn't just a part of her origin story and then they never talk about it again. They reference it and have her use her education several times.
Agreed, you'd forget that she used to be a psychologist, but then those tidbits would remind you.
Yeah I've heard people hate on this movie but it's deadass one of the best DC movies ever
I mean, that's also in the harly quin show, the animated movie "batman and harly quinn" the comics... it would feel worse if they didn't use it sure. But it's a huge portion of harlies Personality in most mideast that isn't the og BTAS by Bruce Tim
its funny in the cartoon that her self revelation moments are her talking to her shrink self where she psychoanalyses her self.
At last
She’s romanticizing the acid scene. In the comics, he led her to the factory while she was terrified. In the comics, she was so frightened that she was trembling above the acid when Joker pushed her in knowing that she couldn’t swim and letting her remain in the chemicals for several minutes as she was drowning. He drained the chemicals at the very last second and adapted her name from Harleen Quinzel to Harley Quinn. As Kaley Cucco (the current voice of Harley Quinn in the show Harley Quinn says in an episode before hitting Joker very hard with a bat) “You got Harley Quinn out of Harleen Quinzel. Nice work, genius!!!” WHAM-O!!!
The animated HQ series is SO GOOD! Harley 💜 Ivy forever 🤩
I honestly hate the comics' addition of the acid scene. It removes what little agency the character had in her backstory. In the original take, there was no chemical plant scene, there was no attributing her insanity to a dip in Joker's toxins. She's just straight-up Stockholm Syndrome in effect, but also chose to do what she did of her own volition. _Mad Love,_ the Batman Adventures comic that details her origin, just has her fall for the Joker's schemes to make her pity him and trick her into believing that they had some sort of connection, such that she steals the Harlequin costume that would become her trademark, grabs a few weapons and some smoke bombs, and breaks him out of Arkham Asylum as his "new and improved Harley Quinn!" She's absolutely doing what she does of her own volition, to the point that Joker's expression when he sees her is straight "WTF?!" It's great, and it shows that she has at least some agency over her actions, rather than needing some kind of sensationalized "she must become just like he is, including the chemically induced insanity" origin tale.
@@Mokiefraggle I actually like how the cartoon handled it, they had the chemical vat story, but Harley is just like "Fuck this." and changes the memory to the day she broke free from the Joker and went "This is my origin story now."
I don’t think they romanticized the Harley jumps to the chemicals, they showed how deep she fell to the Joker. Which I loved, because it’s so tragic. Also when she asked Deadshot if he ever was in love and he said no, and that he would never will do the shit that he does if he could feel things like love.
Like Deadshot is terrible because he’s terrible, and Harley is terrible because she fell in love with a terrible person
@@רוןגורליק-ה5ע . you basically just agreed with the original comment. They're saying "she's" romanticizing that scene because of how in love she is
The line she said "they tell ya the music you like ain't real music at all" help me so much. It almost sad to admit. It was really hard for me to understand my last relationship was toxic until I heard this. My ex did that all the time. He constantly dismissed and deconstructed my music taste to the point I hated myself for even thinking of listening to music, I would be afraid to like music, any music. It just helped to hear it. It really helped me acknowledge and heal from it. This line still hits.
ditto
Yeah, they chuckled at the inclusion of the music taste gaslighting, but music is so deeply tied to who we are that if someone doesn't just dislike your music but actually devalues it repeatedly, it hits deep if you care about there opinion at all.
@@veronicac660 amen to that
Screw that guy. He ain't worth your time.
Yeah... I'm still learning that I didn't give my ex permission and "let him", that I put up with it in trying to keep him (I was worried he'd leave and was afraid of his anger issues)
There’s a channel that discusses the wardrobe choices for Harley between the movies. In the first movie she was dressing for Joker, in the following movies especially the second, she’s dressing for herself. She’s dressing more comfortable than sexy, more colors.
It's a cool story but honestly it's just down to who made each movie
The fact that Alan started their commentary by saying “Margot Robbie. Thank you for existing” honestly just shows you how great the rest of it is gonna be
I don't remember the who said it but the best explanation I've heard for why her outfit in Birds of Prey feels more right is because it seems like something Harley would pick out herself, but the one in Suicide Squad looks like something someone put her in
And in the new suicide squad she is actually put in one! The whole long ass red dress thing. Makes the scene where she tears off it's part and puts on combat boots impactful, like this is the outfit she owns this time
coldcrashpictures talks about something similar in their video about Birds of Prey.
it also does kind of lend itself to the stories because joker would have put her in these kind of clothes in suicide squad but she would choose the outfit for herself in birds of prey.
That and showing skin isn't the problem. It's the position, camera angles, and lingering shots. In Suicide Squad, Harley had to be either in a body position that was sexual or the camera had to zoom in on her sexual parts. Remove that and there were a lot of men who thought Harley's "character" was ruined despite there still being skimpy outfits. In their minds Harley was only there to make them Horny, not to be a believable character.
ALSO SHE WAS FILMED DIFFERENTLY IN BIRDS OF PREY.
we didn't get a slow pan up the body shot like we got in the "getting dressed" scene in SS.
An example of how to portray this condition without overly sexualising the character is Angelina Jolie in Girl, interrupted. There's a scene where she's being overly sexual and flirtatious but our thoughts in that isn't "Wow she's so hot" and instead is "My god she needs some serious help". Angelina Jolies portrayal of Lisa Rowe remains one of my favourite performances of all time.
lisa was a socipath tho
Lisa Rowe had ASPD not HPD
She had aspd not hpd
What scene is it?
I'm so glad Winona ryder got to get that movie made
In terms of the diversity, I also like the fact that one of the women was also was a bit older, middle-aged in fact. She looked like a real person. Usually when films show 'diversity' you get the young stunning Black woman, the young stunning Latina, the young stunning Asian woman, etc....you can definitely tell this was directed by a woman!
Rosie Perez 100% deserves a send up!! She was injured and not sure she could do filming, but she pulled through and delivered an amazing performance
Uhh, who was middle aged?
@@technounionrepresentative4274 Rosie Perez was 54 or 55 when Birds of Prey filmed (turn 56 the year it was released.) Love seeing a middle-aged woman rock it on screen!
"You can definitely tell this was directed by a woman!" Yes, unfortunately 🤮
@@ArukiTsukaru 🤨
Margot Robbie is a great actress and luckily the perfect pick for Harley. In the first Suicide Squad she apparently had to deal with Jared Leto often improvising his lines that she never knew what he would say, but she reacts perfectly in character. I also grew up on Batman TAS and Margot Robbie reminds me of the animated Harley. The start of Birds of Pray is chaotic, but do keep in mind that the narration comes from Harley who is seriously messed up in her head and so is all over the place.
I love that they kept the three biggest actors (as in performing the best) from the first Suicide Squad in the second one, as it would not have been so good without Margot Robbie(Harley), Viola Davis(Waller) and Joel Kinnaman(Brick Flag).
I couldn't imagine having to deal with Jared Leto... I get wanting to get into character, but at worst, I imagine that "method acting" just becomes an excuse to he an ass on the job and not actually act like a professional.
Also! Re: the clothes.
The clothes in birds of prey actually Look Comfortable. Suicide squad is like.. it's a single rly tight layer and the shorts are way shorter and ridiculously tight. Like... they're in no way the same ammount of revealing. And that's not taking into account that the outfits in bop have actual personality and tells a story lol. Like i would wear that in a heartbeat i just think it's so cool!
I still remember this episode in Batman: The Animated Series where it showcased the toxicity and abusive nature of Joker and Harley's relationship on full display. All Harley wanted was a little attention and adoration from the Joker--she carries out his orders, dresses up sexy for him, and even tries to help him with work, even successfully abducting BATMAN so that Joker has a little less on his plate to deal with.
But the Joker never once acknowledged, appreciated, or praised Harley's efforts the whole time, and was instead was enraged because 'she hurt his pride.' The episode doesn't show it, but off-screen you _hear_ Joker strike her, and Batman himself _wincing_ at the action. Everyone knows it takes a lot to faze the Batman, so to have the darkest, most undeterred superhero wince at Joker's abuse is enough to tell you how cruel and unfair this moment was for Harley.
Yet even while Harley was hospitalized for her injuries, Joker sends her flowers, and Harley continues to live in that infatuation. I remember being truly heartbroken for Harley--how the Joker would lure her back in and continue his manipulative cycle all over again, and that Harley might never break free. It makes me glad and happy that current media are taking Harley's route in new directions, particularly when she chooses to move on from Joker and live for herself, and reinterpreting her as something more than just Joker's right-hand woman and plaything.
Do you remember which episode that was/what that episode was called? I’ve never watched the animated series, but that sounds interesting and heartbreaking
The episode (and comic) is Mad Love. It's written by Paul Dini and Bruce Timm.
I remember that!
Even as a small kid watching the cartoons, the way he treated Harley bothered me. Physically pushing her off his lap and such.
Didn't he also push her through a window during the episode? It was so shocking! I liked that they made a bunch of children aware of domestic abuse and to have empathy for victims, even when they choose to go back to their abusers. It was an awakening for me.
as an abuse survivor, this one really hits home. my ex referred to me as his Harley all the time, and even bought these ridiculous Harley/Joker rings for us to wear. i'm almost 6 years removed from it now, and looking back it's hard to believe HOW MUCH i put up with from him. i haven't been in a relationship since, because i'm terrified of them now.
ETA: i'm absolutely in therapy right now, and have been for about 5 years. 💕
@frumiousalice that's the way dear! when you are ready to let someone else in again, it will be someone worthy of your time and affection. Don't rush it.
@@samiraspolidorio9623 thank you! i try to be patient with myself and not think of myself as "broken," because i know that now i'm ready for the *right* person, and i know which red flags to look for. ♥️
@@samiraspolidorio9623 why she have to? Let's women be happily alone and safe already:(
@@kuroinokitsune absolute no need to whatsoever! that's why I told her not to rush it. She is the one who said she's ready for when the right person comes along. I'm a happily single women and my safety is also my # 1 concern. I'd never dream to suggest any other path that is not safety and happiness strongly based on self-fulfillment. =)
Ngl, that's a red flag
I just realised why Harley was so angry when El Diablo revealed his backstory about accidentally killing his family. Her desire, as shown by Enchantress' visions, involves a normal life with the Joker, complete with children. In her eyes, he threw away what she wanted by destroying his loved ones.
He didn't throw it away. He lost control of his powers and they were killed in the housefire he started, not directly by his flames. There is a *HUGE* difference in throwing away your family by killing them. And accidentally killing them in an angry moment because he couldn't control his powers.
@@Juggtacula yeah but that won't make a difference to her. Either way he had what she wanted and ruined it so she'll either be angry with him for 'throwing it away' or she'll be angry with him for loosing control. Guess she could also be angry with herself for throwing the career that she'd put all her energy into for love and loosing control over herself for love so she'll be taking it out on him.
There's a quick scene in the movie where it references that they tried having kids and she got pregnant but then later in the pregnancy, she lost the baby and when they tried again she lost the baby again.
@@Juggtacula I always got the impression that he did it on purpose because he was angry.
I love that she has this whole therapy session with herself while the guy she shot is just squirming around on the floor 😂
One thing I saw once about why Harley's "manic party girl" outfit feels different from the "Daddy's little monster" outfit is that in the "manic party girl" outfit, . The Joker didn't dress her like that because it was sexy - she dressed herself like that because she wants to dress like that. That's why it hits different - it's for her own sake.
I fell in love with the Harley Quinn character in Batman the animated series when she tried to go straight and everyone judged her so badly she asked Batman to lock her back up because she couldn't maintain her progress in society due to their treatment of her. She was trying, but she didn't have a support system beyond Batman's periodic appearance once he even realized she was trying. It was the first sign of depth and healing instead of being Joker's pawn or lapdog. Since then every DC move has been to keep her broken until this series. So it's been a long wait to see the side I longed to see get more attention.
I remembered one episode when she bought a dress, and the security tag went off. She panicked when all the clerk wanted to do was remove the security tag. It was interesting to me because Harley was on high alert, and couldn't calm down enough to understand the situation.
Kind of reminds me when Poison Ivy attempted to restart her life yet Batman couldn’t believe her efforts (in the end she did revert back to her old ways), which is contrast to Harley that made the effort to try to keep herself in check Batman had somewhat of a soft spot for Harley.
@@kate2create738 well Batman did witness firsthand the Joker's abuse towards Harley. So I would imagine that that might have been a reason why Batman had a soft spot for her. It was him showing sympathy towards a victim of abuse.
This also is kind of a commentary on how we treat excons in general. Many can't get a job, can't find a place to stay, etc. Idk what we expect them to so exactly.
@@reikun86 harleys day out:) my favorite episode and hard to watch but a very specific critique of the way people treat 'criminals' imo and a great episode for humanizing harley and pointing out some of her fears. Sad cos she's always...peppy lol but she comes across like a little girl in that episode
A defining moment of Harley Joker relationship, is in the episode Mad Love. When Joker push her a window and Harley say "It's my fault, i didn't get the joke." It really show how she's caught in a very abusive relationship and she internalize it.
Such a good episode, and I'm glad they more or less carried that over into the comics. That's the Harley I prefer. Although she's become a little more refined recently and got a bit more of a sensible evolution to her character, they still turned her into sexy Deadpool ever since New 52 started, and at its worst, it has focused on her sexuality at the expense of her entire psychology wbich is what actually makes her an interesting character.
It's interesting to me that Alan mentions the narration aspect of Birds of Prey as the thing that bothered him the most about the movie. Because while is a valid criticism of any movie, on this one, i find it incredibly fitting for the character. Harley is known to break the fourth wall, she's known to talk to herself (both things she does through the movie), but the narration here is used to establish that she's not a particularly good narrator, she lies sometimes, sometimes she sees it in a completely different way on her brain. Her narrator voice lets you know that.
One scene you can see it, (and is glossed over on this and idk if its because they didn't catch it or 8t was lost on editing) is when Harley crashes the truck on ace chem, she sees fireworks and crazy colors, and yet in the immediate next scene, Renee Montoya is investigating and its pretty much normal fire and the place was even more dirty and uglier than Harley ever showed us. She romantizaced that place on her mind, so much that even in its destruction it looked beautiful. Anyway, just a thought.
Also, fascinating to think about how Jonathan would treat Harley, with her being a psychologist too, and psychiatrist if memory serves me correctly. Doctors make terrible pacients and all that...
This was how I read the narration as well. It fit in terms of who Harley is.
Agree. He went HARD on that filmmaking! Damn.
To me it is *literally* Harley getting to tell her own story, which is a form of emancipation too, and one that is still denied to too many unemancipated people (women, POC, queer people, you name it). She gets to tell her own story, without interruptions, without contradiction, without having to justify herself to others. This is (still!) revolutionary, and also a really good (I'd even say perfect) choice in the context of this movie and its message.
Narration is a way to push the story along, ahead isn't doing that, she's stating what's happening as it's happening and that's lazy
Deadpool did his narration and it pushed the plot along cuz it was before things were happening, not as it's happening
@@ninjanibba4259 Harley is an unreliable narrator, that's the difference, it is supposed to not make sense and the movie doesn't hide that
One of the big defining moments that I knew BoP was written and directed by women was the hair tie but. It is so small, such a little detail, but holy crap hair in your face or on your neck when you’re sweating is a nightmare for a lot of us and it’s not represented enough 😂
yes!! I was thinking the same thing!!
"It's for the girls, and if you're offended by that, that's your problem"
Love it!
People didn't hate it because it was for women. They hated it because instead of being a Birds of Prey film it was a Harley Quinn film with them shoved into the background. In the comics Cassandra Cain is the 3rd Batgirl but just some random thief in this. Comics Helena Bertinelli is The Huntress, a Punisher type vigilante who kills mafia families because one killed her family in a hit but she's another random in this. Black Canary isn't treated as an important DC heroine in this either. Instead of being a creepy serial killer who thinks life's meaningless and that he's freeing them by killing them Victor Zsasz was a generic hitman. And Black Mask who's a crazy mask obsessed gangster was just a guy who wanted a diamond.
@@Xehanort10 People hated on the all-women scene in Endgame as well...THAT wasn't all about one character.
@@samsignorelli Because it was a stupid scene. Why do we have to see an entire scene of all the female heroes? Does it serve any purpose? Does it impact the plot? Nope, it's just to say "hey guys look! We have STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS! Don't you love STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS?" Like bitch no I don't, not for that sole reason anyway. A lot of them had no personality and just tried to look cool. The only remarkable ones are Wanda, Pepper and Black Widow (WHO WASN'T INCLUDED IN THE SCENE!!!). The other ones had as much personality as a piece of bread.
@@ArukiTsukaru Have trouble getting dates, do you?
Here's a fun fact....movies are for more than just white guys.
@@samsignorelli that's the dictionary definition of a strawman argument btw.
I'm kinda with Lisa Nichols on this one. Quinn even in her backstory episode of the Batman: The Animated Series prior to meeting Joker is shown to have an aptitude for high energy, observation and quick thinking. Her issue is maladaptive coping strategies, yep, absolutely validation hunting and misuse of that energy.
It's why I love her healing relationship with Poison Ivy as maladaptive as that can be sometimes. She has moved mre more into a heroine role over the years as writers get smarter at understanding what her backstory means. But they haven't dulled her light. She is gonna be large and attention grabbing. People can suck it. If she uses the platform that gives her to start being the hero? "Maybe they need to put their shades on"
Precisely, I love how complex of a character Harley is. You'd almost forget that she used to be a psychologist, with how insane she is now, but those little flashes of insight would remind you.
@@trinaq Perfect point Trina, it's so easy to forget that too. I like that her new animated series tries to reinterprete that with an almost psychologist mature Harley in the back of her head.
I guess it also hits a personal note for me. My ASD and probable ADHD mean big energy it me. I worry that these conversations miss the bigger picture that what presents as attention grabbing, may be more a reflection of how that person copes with the world or maybe even how they experience it.
@@Firegen1 I know what you mean I have always loved Harley and it isn't because of her relationship with joker because I can't stand him or how when they are together but because I am ADHD and I have a lot in common with her with the quirky behavior my friends always say I am more like the characters like Harley, Mad Hatter, and others like that but I hate being the center of attention because I have anxiety yet it happens a lot with my friends because I'm comfortable with them and my energy levels so to those who don't know me think I want to be
I really hope that if they do bring Ivy into the DCCU that they can show this relationship! They even hint at Harley's bisexuality in the opening animation of Birds of Pray so it wouldn't be a stretch for them to find a meaningful relationship with one another!
@@Firegen1 great point once again! I can also relate to the adhd note. And also! I saw how the dudes in this video kept interrupting or talking over Lisa Nichole, and I'm like.... how is THAT not also considered attention seeking? I know that the director dude, pls forgive i dont remember their names atm, as identifies as having adhd, so like, that would make sense. Yet I feel disappointed that element wasn't (so far, i'm only half way through the video) addressed by the male two hosts
My favourite part of Harley's wardrobe in The Suicide Squad is that whenever she's dressed in clothes she picked out, it's much more practical than what she was wearing in Suicide Squad. I think Margot made sure she was wearing shoes she could do action scenes in without hurting herself as part of her contract after having to do so in Suicide Squad. Hell, in Birds of Prey I think she was wearing Converse sneakers in one of the fights.
As a early DC nerd; I actually never thought of how we can make Harley look less sexual, mostly because I always grew up with her being in a sexual costume, but also because it just seemed like it was part of her character, and I think a majority of DC fans didn't understand that "Hey, Harley needs to grow both in personality and in respect for herself. And this is how we are going to show it."
So put her in a berka or let her wear what ever she wants and don’t say she has no self respect for dressing sexy.
@@prescottmotley5225 she’s not a real person. How a creator has their characters dress says something about both the character and the writer.
@@prescottmotley5225 Okay, let's ask her what she wants - Oh yeah! She's fake. A lot of superheroes' sexuality is "just a part of their character" when they're women, in a male dominated industry, we could probably think about where that makes sense and where it doesn't and adjust fanboy expectations accordingly. In her case it probably makes more sense than most.
I don't think wearing Hot Topic clothes means she respects herself.
@@prescottmotley5225 The thing is. She can 100% wear a sexy outfit that fits her character without it feeling/looking as though she's only wearing said outfit to be sexualised. Case in point, some of the outfits in Birds of Prey and a great example of how it can be "stereotypically sexy but not feel icky" is the fight scene with the wet white shirt.
We all know that shirt is gonna be see-through when wieved up close and we all know Harley doesn't care and might even use it to her own advantage. Doesn't mean we need any shots of her boobs all wet and up close in that see-through shirt.
In my opinion. A lot of the outfits in the first Suicide Squad movie could have worked if they'd just filmed it better and not made it all about "how can we make this fanservice"
One thing to say about the male gaze in the first movie was Jono got a lot right about the ownership bits and Sophie was spot on about certain shots like the focus on the butt and tiny shorts.
I wanted to go more in-depth with the costumes because the ownership is definitely shown in the puddin collar, collarbone tattoo, and the daddy’s lil monster T-shirt. They are also shown in the hair like in the first movie the pigtails are long enough to pull on and the bangs frame her face in an attractive way whereas in the second movie they’re shorter and choppy, more fun for her and less conventionally attractive. To speak on the cinematography where in the first movie the frame seems to be centered on her chest but in the second the frames in the second movie it seems to center on her face or have more wide shots where the action takes center spotlight instead just her body or her clothes on her body. Fishnet leggings added and all three of you guys hit the nail on the head with the icky way she was shot in the first movie although yes her character lends herself to that attention seeking behavior and clothing choices. But looking at the second movie, it just shows that she can be sexy, attention seeking, or just playful without over sexualizing her and falling into a male gaze pit fall. All in all loved the commentary and analysis!💖
My favorite about Margot’s Harley is the line about how for someone to be her they would have to go through years of medical school because SHE IS A DOCTOR
I'm surprised that they didn't mention that Harley was a therapist before becoming a criminal. I'd love to see Jonathan's take on Harley Quinn's style as a therapist
They did mention it. That was like, a big part of the beginning of the video lol
@@rduquett Where? I don't think I heard them recognizing it. They spoke of her 'condition' but not her past job and how it works into.
Well, as a therapist, I can tell that we don't usually comment on other therapists style. Ethical code and all that. It's a movie and she's not a real therapist, of course, but it can become a habit. So probably that and the fact that there wasn't much to comment on. That part of the movie was focused on her relationships with Jocker, not on actual therapy itself.
@@BlueWoWTaylan I guess I remembered the animation at the beginning and thought they recognized her being a therapist. Def a missed opportunity. My bad.
@@tanyavasina2028 except the Internet Dads have a series of vids where Jono talks about different movie therapists, like Robin Williams in Good Will Hunting; It's a valid suggestion for this channel.
To add to the discussion about Harley's outfits, the hair should also be considered. In the two examples of the male directed films with Harley featured, she had those longer bangs and the long pigtails/hair which I cannot imagine would be good in a fight. Y'know... Easy to grab etc. In Birds of Prey she's got shorter hair and shorter bangs. There's even a point where a hairband is proffered during a fight which was fantastic.
Right?! I loudly rejoiced at the point where the hairband is offered during that fight. Brilliant! And also, about damn time :)
The ponytail holder bit... I just thought, "relatable!"
I also just noticed that in the roller Derby scene, she taped her cut-off hair to her helmet 😂😂
That hair tie being offered was the thing that made it so obvious that it was made by women. Most men won't think of little details like that
Yet her original outfit is not that
As someone who has had several abusive relationships, Harley’s monologue (though hilarious at first) always leaves me teary. My exes did some of the stuff she mentioned. It’s so well acted and done
The animation is also really cool because that Harley’s origin. She was literally made for tv in Batman the animated series. I just adore that they brought it back to show her introduction montage.
I loved the video! I am deeply curious about the diagnosis ratio for histrionic personality disorder in men vs. women. Based on the explanation here, I have a hard time seeing a lot of men being diagnosed with it. Is there a male equivalent? If we're questioning patriarchy in cinema, I think it's fair to interrogate that in medicine too!
3:03 "I was the brains behind some of Mr. J's most greatest stunts."
She's not just blowing smoke when she says that. In the same tv episode that Joker kicks Harley out a window he did it because she actually caught Batman. He was 100% going to die except the Joker didn't want him to die because that would be the end of their "fun" and if anyone was going to kill the Bat it would be him. He then tries to shoot Batman, guess how well that works.
Batman even says that Harley came a lot closer than the Joker ever did to killing him.
Aaaah, that scene always gets me. When Harley is lying in the wreckage in the alley afterwards, all she can say is "my fault... I didn't get the joke."
Such perfectly captured, heartbreaking behaviour of someone trapped in a manipulative relationship.
Such a great episode.
@@tbotalpha8133 Batman's even impressed Harley nearly killed him in the Mad Love comic and episode and mocks Joker by saying she came closer to killing him than Joker ever did.
Yup! In various other comic series (outside of Mad Love), it's shown Harley is actually the brains of the operation. However, she'll concede her ownership of the idea to make Joker happy.
In semi-canonical comics and a few panels of actual comics, even Batman acknowledges Harley is the more capably intelligent of the two. Joker gets wrapped up in the game and may prioritize it over an actually feasible idea, whereas Harley will see a plan through to the end and have backups to the backup.
@@Mothman_In_a_T-Pose Ha! She's the executive function to his ADD.
I remember a former friend from highschool who LOVED Harley and The Joker, and funnily enough she was one of the most toxic people I've ever met. She constantly went on about how she was like them and she was "crazy" and "psycho" like them.
I ended up breaking off our friendship because of the way she treated one of our guy friends who she knew had a crush on her. When he told that he was okay with her liking other guys because he was starting to get over her, she kissed him "To prove that he wasn't" and the next day at school she was raving on about how she had held hands with her latest obsession (who was in a relationship at the time).
Overall, I think, like The Joker (as she likes to compare herself) likes to be wanted and needed, even at the expense of other's feelings.
Well I really wonder what people like that would say about me who is poly.
I would be totally fine with her seeing other people, but I really wonder if she would be fine with me being fine with that
@@Nerobyrne most likely she will get bored asap, I am somehow histrionic, much better after therapy, and a person that isn't all over me is pretty much boring to be with, I need to be surrounded by people that look at me with at least a little admiration . As he said, I get my craving for attention by giving it to other people, I kind of love bomb my gf (and pretty much everyone), but constantly, and I don't plan on stopping, so is not manipulation. But some people will see my relationship style as overbearing. Although people tend to like me because I am that guy that tells you your t shirt effing rocks!
@@Puerco-Potter yeah I'm really distant and aloof in my relationships so that totally wouldn't work out lol
I knew two very similar people (a couple). Sadly I spend my time with them for way to long. They always were cosplaying as Joker and Harley and said they would identify with them. It is so sad, that someone would even take them as relationship goals. But it is worse how they actually treated everyone. I was kinda in love with the girl and they forced me to do stuff I didn't want to do (not only with her but with him too). Glad, that I have a really healthy life now without any toxic people in it.
I hate how much this sounds like me in high school. I was super dumb and hurt and was an awful person to many people. I used to idolize that type of behavior cause I thought if I didn't fit in usually, maybe that would give me solace. Now I've grown and have to deal with the fact that I was a source of hurt for people I considered friends, which will haunt me forever.
I was diagnosed with histrionic disorder and when i was told that, I didn't quite understood the full of it. As years pass by I now i see it. Thank you for bringing attention to this personality disorder, its been amazing to watch yours vids and learn from it
I am sincerely curious, how did you come to that conclusion to get a diagnosis? And how do you feel about it?
@@hagelslag9312 I didn't. I've been to psychologists and psychiatrists my whole life and when i came to a certain age they got that diagnosis among others. To be honest sometimes I react badly when I think about it too much. It was a shock, at first, I always knew there was something ''wrong''
Same here was diagnosed while hospitalized a long with BPD the phycologist there wouldn't tell me what it meant and seeing multiple counselors that wouldn't explain what they were, and have practically given up on counseling, it's sad to get generalized answers from a UA-cam therapist that I should have gotten from a therapist that I can see. I understand that there are a good number of therapists that either don't feel it's necessary to explain the diagnosis because patients get hung up on it, but that is how I would like to been able to process it so I can be self aware of the behaviors.
@@WolvenMother i agree with you xx
@@WolvenMother yeah it should be that way...it feels like you're barely getting what you paid...
I don't know what they are talking about the screen play was brilliant! As someone with complex PTSD and who works in mental health, it is such a good depiction of the lived experience of many women escaping abusive relationships. The narration reflects the inner dialogue so well that I have experienced and wouldn't be the same movie without it. I loved and felt seen by the "disjointed" story telling - this is how trauma is experienced and processed in the mind and body. It's not a linear experience and the storytelling helps the viewer to not only see that but feel the sense of confusion. To be great art helps people to feel other's experience not just showing it.
PLEASEEE, do a Villain therapy for Frollo in Hunchback of Notre Dame - I've rewatched this movie as an adult and his character shook me (and I can't help but wonder how much disney paid to keep this movie at a G rating)
I just want to say...thank-you so much for not relying on the auto-generated captions, I super, SUPER appreciate it. I'm not deaf or HoH in a physical sense, but I do have issues with auditory processing. Also, the deaf gain in things like "Internet Dad and Sophie:..." is really delightful. Kudos to your captioner!
You're very welcome!
I agree...I HATE auto-captions. Especially as a Hard of Hearing woman ...
I think the narration works cause Harley is batshit crazy and she's constantly reminding herself what she's done or what shes currently doing. It feels very in line with who she is and how she functions.
Agreed, it fits the highly stylized vibe of the film, it feels like a peek into her mind
“What you really need, is to give that to other people”
Wow. I feel completely validated, not even a minute in. This is EXACTLY where I’m at. I’ve had a pretty exhausting life, and I’m not even 40. But I’ll be damned if I’m not going to show everyone I meet with the exact level of kindness all people should be afforded. Which is not something I can quantify but to say that everyone deserves to be treated like a human being who wants to be happy and taken seriously.
I have a philosophy in life not treat others as I would want to be treated. Because sometimes you don't feel worthy of good treatment. I have always thought instead to treat others the way I would want someone to treat my grandparents. I have really found that this helps me with my own self worth and self esteem.
@@wifeofsauron1658 My personal philosophy is that everybody should receive a base level of kindness and respect as a default. Including myself.
I start at being a decent human being to everybody and recognizing them as people, not just placeholders to give me what I need in the moment. Some of them will prove they don't deserve it. Some will be uplifted by it. Some will start off not deserving it, but will raise themselves up to meet your expectations.
@@AndaraBledin I feel like I have upset you in some way, but I'm not sure how. If you could tell me that would be really helpful.
Edit: sorry, I'm only asking because I'm autistic and sometimes I struggle with interactions and what people mean. So my confusion is in whether you are just sharing your personal experience and philosophy or if I did something wrong. And I hope I'm not implying you did something. It's totally a me problem. 😊
@@wifeofsauron1658 Not at all.
I was merely building on what you said and adding in my own take.
Sorry if I came across as negative in any way; that wasn't my intent.
@@AndaraBledin no you definitely didn't!!! I'm sorry I made you feel that way. Sometimes I verbalize things in a way that doesn't make since to others and a lot of misunderstandings happen. So whenever I'm unsure if I said something wrong I like to ask. It also helps learn and helps me interact with people better. So I really appreciate you helping me. 😁
I love how Adam keeps scratching the dog in this one. So pure.
I know that she is a "Literally Me" character, but I love her so much. I don't love her with the Joker, but I love her by herself and with her friends. She is so fun I swear.
Harley Quinn and Wonder Woman have something in common, when it comes to "the male gaze". In "Wonder Woman", Diana's body is shown as a powerful weapon. Though we do see closeups of her thighs, and a barely-there glimpse of her butt, it's meant to demonstrate how strong she is, almost like a big cat about to pounce. In "Justice League", however, it's the exact opposite. There's one particular shot, which makes me sick. She's just having a conversation with one of the male characters, but everything else is slightly out-of-focus, except for her butt. The camera holds that position for several seconds. It's gone from, "Wow. She's so strong, and that strength enhances her beauty", to, "Wow. She has a great butt." It's no wonder that some guys are threatened, when the idea of "the male gaze" is called out. It's the same principle behind why the kiss between Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, and Madonna WASN'T blurred out for TV, but the kiss between Adam Lambert and his male drummer WAS. (7/19/2022)
I would love to see your take on Marvel's Moon Knight and Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID) in a video!!
Ooh, and /or Split!
Sadly, they only do movies
@@stomyn They also did WandaVision tho
@@Lucy666Fernandez They said Wandavision was the exception, not the rule
@@rachaelknudsen8801 I thought they did Split and also no that film can burn in a dumpster fire for the stereotypes it reinforced.
While the Birds of Prey narration was definitely choppy and all over the place, which was irritating at times, I appreciated that it seemed to reflect Harley Quinn's chaotic personality. It was like a peek into how her train of thought works.
It’s honestly kind of upsetting that Margot Robbie played an absolutely amazing Harley and unfortunately had the absolute worst Joker for a partner
Which is why she so deserved liberation!
I’ve been positive I have histrionic personality disorder so I was really really scared to watch this video for a long time but watching this brought a good sense of perspective… thanks you guys
Harley's character arc is truly exemplarly of abusive relationships, male gaze, and female empowerment.
Harley begins abused and neglected by her dad, and thus she seeks out male approval. Joker uses her, pulling her into what he wants, using her for his goals, and everything about her shows that. She wears "property of Joker" on her clothes, gets tattoos which symbolizes "forever," and he pimps her out for everyone to see. So when Harley acts overly sexual in front of male guards or her teammates, we can thank the fricking male director for exemplifying the fact that Harley is nothing but a sex toy for the men in SS, nothing but something hot to look at, something to be desired. She was a prisoner in Arkam Asylum, she wears a dog collar for Joker, and she doesn't have any protection for her body.
So in BOP, she gets dumped, or more literally, she gets set free, and finally is able to give herself protection and freedom. She gets coverups on her tattoos, she wears more comfortable shorts and bras, and she gets her own dog (hyena). She even cuts her hair, removing the Joker colors of infantile pink and blue for a more mature blonde and length, which removes her from a pedofilic gaze and from the little nice girl silhouette. Y'all do not realize how even hairstyles can be sexualized. The "sexy school girl" look comes with pigtails. It's awful. But where Harley of SS would probably have worn a dress with a slit and lots more cleavage, BOP Harley wears a pink pantsuit, showing that she is her own woman.
Great analysis.
Some women wear revealing outfits and pigtails to look sexy for the male gaze and when they're bored with the male gaze they start to complain that the male gaze is awful and become feminists.
@@James_White_5 hmmmm…
I'm writing a character with HPD. I'm glad you're looking at this so that more people can be aware of the disorder. Honestly, I'm trying so hard to write the disorder realistically.
Just watch the Amber Heard trial! Jonathan's explanation of HPD fits Amber to a T.
My mum has histrionic personality so if you need any pointers let me know 🤣
@@chizzieshark The only person who diagnosed Amber Heard with HPD, was a psychologist paid by Johnny Depp who had vested interest in making his ex wife look 'crazy'. The same therapist admitted to signing a document promising to diagnose Heard with BPD and HPD, months before she even met her.
A much more qualified and competent therapist, Dr Dawn Hughes, disagreed with the diagnosis. So did most of the therapists who had worked with Heard prior to this. Disgusting how personality disorders were weaponized by Depp's team.
Fellow writer! Hahaha. I am also writing a character with HPD. This video kinda helped me a lot.
same here!! i have this dramedy i’ve been wanting to write for ages that i’m super passionate about where the main character has HPD and this video only makes me want to write it even more!
I grew attached to Harley Quinn's character because when I watched Birds of Prey with my boyfriend, it was the first time he ever looked at a female character and told me "Oh yeah, you do that too". That's the kind of non-sexualize side of women that you normally don't see in movies, like the whole scene of her messy break-up.
I think the narration in this Birds of Prey works beautifully. I think the repetition and constant stating the obvious are what make it great. For example, Harley stating that she'll start the story wherever she wants (4 minutes ago) or when she reminds the audience why every thug in town hates her (eventually ending with the eggplant emoji). It's great comedic relief, and I think it helps to highlight the fact that the character isn't all mentally there. People with mental disorders can repeat themselves and state the obvious as they try to make sense of things in their mind. Also, I think on a feminist level, having Harley narrate the story gives her a voice that she hasn't previously had. By being able to be in her innermost thoughts, the audience gets a glimpse of a character that isn't just living to be with the Joker, but one who is trying to heal from trauma, and who often has justified reasons for her insane actions (even if the reasons are also insane).
"Male Gazey" films are both an example of the problem and an enabler of the problem when it comes to women and how they are looked at by men. When I was younger, I started developing a large chest early (13) and it seemed that I got a lot of attention from guys because of it. This made me feel that the only thing important about me was my looks. I could have gone one of three ways: ride the female performance train and dress and use makeup to enhance that perception and get more attention from men or run from attention by avoiding dressing feminine and using makeup, or lastly, form a mixture of both and developed both my outward look and the inward idea of myself. I chose the second since I didn't want to be seen as "only my body parts" but wanted to be seen as having a brain. It's tough on a young girl, growing up in a religious household to choose the third option because your family is telling you how sinful you are, how you are not as important as a male, and that you are only here to serve others. It was easier to choose to avoid any acknowledgment of my femininity by avoiding feminine things.
We sexualize the human body too much, kids deal with these things too and should be respected/ viewed as kids even if they have secondary secs characteristics. We don’t accept the human body, we shame and sexualize it. And people aren’t taught it’s a normal thing. We’re taught tits are sexual and now There’s no difference between teen and adult tits in society’s eyes 🤢🤮 looking at euphoria
I was terrified of being sexualized so I had those two options two and chose the second, I also tried to gain weight and just wear baggy clothes and just didn't care for my hair or anything. I was afraid if I didn't something would happen and someone would harm me.
@@tulip5210 I understand where you're coming from. I tried to develop a tough girl persona to protect myself from unwanted sexual advances
Funny the "feminist" on the panel who was against male gazing commented on Silvio Luna's "Tiniest butt".
Pluse has anyone actually seen the comics they are full of sexualized images of Harley, (like almost all comics do women) not sure why they expect different when translated to film. Its human nature and even the panelist looked straight at the guy's butt and commented. Lol.
I am not a feminist but they annoy me profoundly.
Meanwhile films like "Titanic" show men being valued for sacrificing their lives for women. But that film is treasured.
Thanks for that call out about how romanticized Joker and Harley are, it always strikes me as weird that they get that idealized treatment when it's an unhealthy relationship.
They really, really need therapy.
One Word. Twilight.
Or that 50 shades of grey was one of the best selling books of all time
@@seansimmons73 50 shades was actually written as a twilight fanfic, originally. So technically it's still 'twilight'.
Yeah, and when you call those people out, then you're an asshole for "bullying" 14yo like 🤦♀️
I have to say, they way y'all supplement with guests now to expand the base of experience in these is genuinely commendable. Y'all do good work.
Love this guest!
Harley's story mirrors Wonder Woman's somewhat. Both are motivated by love, but while Diana's love for Steve inspired her to become a hero, Harley's love for the Joker turned her into a villain. Diana is mentally stable, while Harley is chaotically insane. Diana's love for Steve is pure, while Harley struggles to see that the Joker is manipulating her.
This is a fascinating take
I get that you're trying to say Diana's love is more pure, but I would dispute that. I think you were trying to say the love from their prospective partners was different not the love that they had for their partners.
Kind of a shame nobody ever taught Diana about consent
Wonder woman isn't motivated by love in the least, which is one of the reasons I like her character. Her motivation is a sense of duty to the world. I believe what you're trying to say is that wonder woman's love is more pure.
@@Nerobyrne
I refuse to acknowledge that WW1980 even exists
Y’all helped me during my nursing psych final bc I did not remember anything about personality disorders on the final but I was watching this the night before and not studying…
Anyways it did help clarify some things while entertaining, hope that amuses y’all lol
This is literally the only UA-cam channel where I love watching the ads. You guys are brilliant.
Thanks so much!
I found this channel last month and I’ve seen every episode at least twice now. It’s really helped me in my own relationships and enjoyment of art and media. Thank you internet dads!
I found this channel thanks to my transition school showing it
Welcome aboard and thanks for watching!
@@CinemaTherapyShow Thanks
Not just you amigo, I've applied a lot of it to my relationship with my wife and with my own work relationships. Just to let you know you are definitely not the only one who is finding they can apply it in their everyday lives- damn glad to have found them too. Edit: Added the last sentence
These guys, Elliot Carthy, the counselor, and psych2go kickstarted everything for me. Now I've functionally created the best environment I can for myself and others and work to maintain it, even if you can't get therapy, the lessons these guys provide for free were vital to me and just maybe might make a lifeline for others. I wasn't to the point where I needed actual therapy to make it out alive, but I was as close as it gets. Someone like me, I just needed the right information, and I know that's not everybody, in fact, a lot of the people I share what I've learned with reject their potential growth, but it still needs to exist. Thank you Jono, thank you Alan, you were my parasocial jump-start to healthier constructs and mindsets and communication and you and Elliot changed something as fundamental to my material expression as my writing for the better. Also, kishotenketsu is the savior of conflict-averse writers everywhere, you can't fight me cause I'm right.
I enjoyed the narration because its more like a comic book experience. You can see what's going on, on the page, but you're reading what's going on too. Not only that Harley is amazing at 4th wall breaks, so it feels like she's hearing the narration and repeating what it says in a form of 4th wall breaking
He found the naration "bad filmmaking" I found it very funny!!
And yeah, that is an (especially older) comic book thing! Hadn't thought of that yet!
Ahh.. I liked that too. Seems to be done on purpose.. like how it's named in writing - "unreliable narrator" or something
I’m not the biggest fan of Birds of Prey but I can’t deny that’s it’s a very fun movie if you don’t take it too seriously😆
Margot Robbie belongs among Hugh Jackman as Wolverine, Robert Downey Jr as Iron Man and Ryan Reynolds as Deadpool in the list for actors born to play comic book roles
For real. Like it's a fun movie but if you look at it through a critical filmmaking lens then it's not great.
I think she really carried the movie.
When Alan said that the bits where she just narrates were great because SHE is great, I couldn't agree more.
If this was a book I'd throw it in the trash because he's right, it's terribly written. But it's like Robie turns crap into actual gold
@kshamwhizzle honestly I think they are our modern pantheon. The Greeks had the gods, Hercules, and Odysseus, with their crazy larger than life stories, we have comic books characters and super hero movies. Things to aspire to and also be entertained by, but ultimately they're just stories that reflect our cultural values back to us. And whenever the stories are told in a new way that reflect a change in cultural values, people find that threatening.
Exactly! We even have mythological characters as superheroes! (I'm looking at you Thor)
Well then, Ryan Reynolds is the only one on that list with Robbie who is in the role not nearly often enough.
My husband and I had Harley & Deadpool as our wedding cake topper. Needless to say, we've been in and out of therapy 😂
I loved this video! the "if you romanticize Joker and Harley, seek help" part is so true. I never understood how anyone could view them in such a way or idolize them. On that note... because this is part of the psychology of a hero/villain therapy series, I would literally die if you'll ever post a video about Wolverine/Logan
I've watched the cartoons and read the comics too, her story is so tragic. She deserves so much better.
Got abusive family, people taking advantage of her, abusive partners, etc.
So I'm glad, at least in some movies, she got friends who cares about her.
7:00 somebody pointed out that Harley’s uniform isn’t a uniform at all - looks more like she had to strategically tear a blanket or pillowcase, likely because the perverted guards threw her in the cage without clothing, and only gave her a uniform later when Waller was coming to inspect.
If we're making assumptions without info I'll submit mine. She had a uniform and tore it up most likely. That would also be more consistent with her character.
You play it as a clip but it gets overlooked. In The Suicide Squad she is really touched Rick Flagg mounts a rescue mission. Probably the one guy she met who treats her well and is platonic.
Agreed. I think their friendship is under appreciated
I love their friendship in this movie. I wish it was talked about more.
Who treatED her well... 😭😭
@@ArukiTsukaru 😭
I've known 2 people with HPD. One was a friend and my dad. (and yes they do think they're much closer with people than they are. I hung out with this girl like twice and she started saying we're best friends and showing up at my house) As far as I know, my dad was never diagnosed with it. But he exhibits almost if not all the signs. He was very uncomfortable with not being the center of attention. If you were talking about anything he'd interject and make things all about himself. I mean he'd even get jealous of the attention his own kids would get. Apparently as a kid his parents often favored his older brother. So he's always been attention seeking. When his brother died and I was born, my mom and grandma (his mom) doted on me. He was incredibly jealous. Also, He'd always do provocative behavior or act inappropriately which could be embarrassing when you got older. His emotions were all over the place, he was suggestible. We would always have to make him think things were his idea, it wasn't hard. Dramatic etc. He was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and I believe BPD. But I personally think he should've also been diagnosed with histrionic PD as well.
Never has therapy been so entertaining and engaging!!! Keep up the great work!
Great video as always! I just want to shout out to Sophie for pointing out the water fight in Birds of Prey. When I saw it in theaters, I actually groaned and went...okay here we go, stereotypical wet t-shirt fight that is going to be super sexualized...and the movie was doing so well. And then I was shocked that they didn't. And it was such a great fight scene with the way they used the water.
Totally! Thanks for watching!
Same here !
The 2016 Suicide Squad reducing Harley Quinn to eye candy wasn't just "icky," it was a full-blown character assassination. They kept the needy and sexual aspects of her personality and seemingly forgot every other significant character trait that she had.
I love the fact that the writers in DC actually cut off pretty quickly the Harley Joker romance. Like you can say it’s because Jared Leto is fired but also it’s not to romanticize them and we obviously can’t see Harley get abused again and again and again by the Joker.
Like…they made her her own character
I love that too! It's great for one movie and the buildup, but more than that is excessive for even the viewers to have to see. I don't think I could stand watching a character be abused for 2-3 movies in a row and never escape the abuse. Even worse when a bunch of people think its relationship goals (which I think is purely for the appeal of Harley and Joker being iconic characters-I think/hope more people would recognize it as bad if it wasn't for that). I think the old batman cartoons did better about showing the relationship as abusive. People still like the villian characters, but I don't recall very many people aspiring to have that relationship like the do with this variation of the story.
They never did and I wish we would have. It's comic book movie after all
I would like you guys to talk about having traits of personality disorders but still not being fully diagnosed with the disorder. You started getting into it when you talked about how you strongly seek out for attention and validation. It can be very helpful for other to understand what a disorder really means- the difference of having some traits vs a disorder that affects every part of one’s life.
I love how all of Harleys lines are both sad and super funny at the same time
Growing up, I noticed a lot of teens romanticize Joker and Harley. I feel like I myself was there too, but eventually (and thankfully) I realized it was incredibly toxic. It's still a good story and I absolutely love Harley and Joker as characters, but not as relationship goals
He was crazy and she was his queen and she was crazier and GOD HELP THE MAN WHO CROSSED HIS QUEEN XXXXXXX lmaooo good times
Because it's a fantasy/entertainment and it's not real, just like with Twilight or 50 Shades of Gray for example. People wouldn't actually want to be in a relationship like that in the real world, of course. There are people who fantasize about being robbed by a really hot person or something of the sort, but that doesn't mean they want that to actually happen.
@@Pumpkin0_0 People do actually want to be in relationships like that. It can stem from other issues, but it isn't healthy and is dangerous to romanticize even in fantasy/entertainment.
@@kasulazavala7957 that's a them problem they already have problems if they can't separate fantasy from good reality
@@kasulazavala7957 I'm not talking about exceptions. People who would ever be in a relationship like that will get into one either way without having to watch entertainment. Just like there are millions and millions of gamers, but you don't see mobs of gamers acting out the videos games they play or ever truly wanting to be in such unhealthy situations. You're talking about people who need help, because it's not a movie that's going to make someone actually desire to suddenly be in a dangerous, loveless relationship just like that, especially when it's not merely role-playing in a healthy way with a partner. Two entirely different matters.
Harley definitely finds healing through connecting with others. Even when her "extra" personality intimidates people at first, the later two movies see people who have suffered difficult pasts as well accepting and warming up to her as well. She usually doesn't judge others from the Squads or Birds of Prey team and therefore becomes more understood and validated.
Thx for discussing this character and inviting Sophie to speak on feminism (/in film). But I noticed that you cut her off quite a few times. Surely not with malintent but I noticed that in the other episode with her, too. You sadly have a bit of a tendency to cut your guests off. I get that it can be tough to adjust to a guest's speaking pattern, especially when our two internet dad's are such an amazing duo, but you bring guests to give their opinions and the viewers (at least moi) would like to hear them out..
Aside from this little critique: I absolutely love this channel! Your videos are fantastic and entertaining while teaching us interesting stuff about both psychology and cinematography! Lots of Love to the entire team!
agree 100%!
This! I wasn't sure if I was imagining it tho, good to see that others saw it too! I agree with you wholeheartedly :)
And sometimes cut her off to say the same thing she was saying. It's like I'm back in corporate meetings all over again, having to point out to my boss (in private later, for his ego) how his female execs never got credit for their ideas, and having receipts (being the official minutes keeper) 🙄
@@galeforcewindy agree...
Well hey, they gotta have time for those annoying fucking sponsors they try to shove down our throats every video
A series of unfortunate events is the only movie/series that gets away with that kind of narration because Lemony Snicket is a comedic genius
Sophie's humor is so great, we need more of her omg
The opening narration of the Birds of Prey movie, I'd say the whole point there is that she's still in the histrionic phase. She's narrating things unnecessarily because she needs to make sure we, the viewers, are paying attention to her and only to her. Like when I saw the movie I wasn't thinking "oh this is her histrionic personality disorder talking" or anything but it immediately characterizes Harley as the kind of person who *gives* that kind of superfluous narration - as well as give you insight in the way she thinks about herself and the things that happen to her, which, with Harley Quinn, is not always obvious (damn, she really, really loved that sandwich).
So the narration in this movie is not meant to tell you what's happening, what's going to happen, or some kind of background information you really need to know but they couldn't show you. It's a) true to character, and b) I do believe a part of it is just there for fun (damn, she really, really loved that sandwich).
I agree! It’s like Kuzco stopping the film to make sure the audience knows he’s the star of the movie in Emperor’s New Groove
personality disorders aren't phases, they're something you work with your entire life
@@thefangirlingpuellamagi3345
Very valuable addition to this discussion, yes, I learned so much.
If you're such an expert, maybe you could make your contribution just the slightest bit actually useful by telling me which word I could use instead to express my belief that the Harley from Suicide Squad (can't survive when she doesn't have all eyes on her, codependent relationship with an abusive man because any semblance of love is better than nothing) evolves and becomes different by the end of Birds of Prey (has rejected a man based on principle, no longer needs all attention on her because she has friends now). According to Merriam Webster, these are two different 'phases' in her personal development, so what word should I use instead, oh All-Knowing Semantics Guardian of UA-cam?
The reason for the monologuing between her thoughts and what she says aloud is that it is a major thing in comic books: you’ll have the internalized dialog of the main character and then the things they voice both written out on the page
As a woman, i think Sophie is a great represention of our gender. Please thank her for her service 💙
I just discovered this channel this week. There have been a lot of references that make me happy, especially the Buffy, Angel, Firefly stuff. But when you said, "Gotta have the blue hair," and dropped that Strong Bad image, I knew you were my people.
LOVE MY PEOPLE!
I love it when Sophie joins in and gives her perspective. I wish she’d do it a bit more often too. The Chads of the world might not like it but they need to hear it
I just want to bring to the table how much I appreciate Sophie being a part of episodes. I love the points she brings to the discussion and her understanding of film language is top-notch.
Agreed. I hesitate to say this because I’m worried I’ll get a lot of hate for it, but the guys interrupt her a lot, and there’s a lot of times I want to hear her finish what she’s saying but she gets talked over. Clearly they do really value her opinion and are trying to undo a lot of socialized behavior to talk over or for women, but I hope they also see it during editing so they can keep trying to improve. I know you guys are enthusiastic about the material and oftentimes are agreeing with her, and I also know that interrupting is really common in people with ADHD which I think one or both of them has said they have? (Sorry if that’s incorrect) So I’m not trying to be ableist. But just based on seeing how often Alan or Johnathan get to completely finish their thoughts, vs. Sophie getting interrupted mid-thought was kind of telling that there’s still room for improvement when bringing better representation into these discussions. Hope you guys know the critique comes with love because I think you guys actually care about this stuff, and if I thought you were just sexist d-bags I wouldn’t waste my time and energy commenting.
@@oreonighthawk I patiently scrolled down the comment section to finally find someone bringing this up! This comment should be higher :(
I agree. And I also thought that maybe guys feel a bit awkward.
I personally would be very awkward inviting someone of a different social group (in this case meaning gender) to publicly talk about their perspective as a member of said group. Especially when in the context of the conversation I am in some way privileged. I’d feel big responsibility to not be a jerk, create a space for the guest to speak their mind and at the same time be engaging in our conversation. Also I’d stress over a thought that if I try too hard I’d come up as condescending which would definitely not be my intention.
As the result with all this mess in my head I’d be very awkward and loose the ability to hold a naturally flowing conversation.
@@oreonighthawk Odd... what I got from it, is that she's not that great at putting herself out there, and the guys are doing most of the work. There are times when she comes alive with a topic, and they mesh well, but when the guys are doing 'all' the talking, she's more closed off and just kind of there. Sort of figured it was her personality type. I'm the same way, there are times when I want to listen and process where what other people say, and will be quiet. Then other times I'm animated and have a lot to say.
...
Think you guys are just being too sensitive about it because she's a woman to be honest. Not everyone can just talk the whole time about every part of a topic. When she talks, the guys are respectful and stop to listen to her, but they're not going to sit around saying nothing until she's ready to go.
I actually think the voiceover had a purpose and fulfilled that purpose. It's part of what you mentioned, she thinks she's closer in relationships than she actually is. If she knew there was an audience(whoever that may be) she'd feel that way with them too and want to have that connection.
This hit me right in the face. My younger sister checked every one of these boxes growing up, and all the men she dated (and eventually married) were toxic pieces of garbage. WOW. Her behavior makes so much more sense now.
I’m so sorry it must be exhausting to have a sister like that
I hope she gets the support & therapy she needs. Be patient, she's gonna need her big sis.
@@whynot07 I feel empathy for both of them. Having to care for someone with a mental illness is taxing and having one yourself is a struggle in and of itself. It somewhat reminds me of when people generalize people with BPD as inherently abusive. Suffering from something doesn't make a person inherently insufferable. These people really need help instead of being told there's something inherently wrong with them as a person because they have a personality disorder. The disorder isn't you.
Sofie saying that "any movement that a woman of color is making in the industry is a movement for all women of color", in reference to how the producer is Asian and she is . It means so much for me. Being Asian who grew up in the 90s, I feel so self conscious when I say that black actresses meant so much for me. Especially black women who were leads or main supporting character like Whoopie, Brandy, Whitney Tia and Tamerra and Karyn Parsons, seeing them showed me that how strong, funny, charming, beautiful, playful, and how vocal poc women could be. It sounds silly, but most women in my family and community drilled in my head that I had to keep a low profile to get people to like me and for me to get on in life, don't argue. don't speak too loud, don't be rude, don't make jokes, be pretty but not too pretty etc. Meanwhile these actresses are portraying these characters with so much energy, confidence, intelligence, leadership, empathy with actions, sass and elegance, it was so refreshing and made me think that I wanted to be like that too, to be able to speak my mind, crack jokes, sing when I want to sing, dance when I wanted to dance, and be an active part in a discussion, and choose how I wanted to show my looks and personality based on my mood. I didn't see myself represented in movies or shows for years, but having diversity in these shows were so helpful to getting me to explore my personality for myself.
Well, Whoopi (assuming you mean Whoopi Goldberg) kinda fucked up with her anti-semitism, not gonna lie.
This illness drives me nuts (if you'll forgive the pun) because both my parents have it and it made my childhood kind of miserable since it isolated me quite a bit. My dad would drag me everywhere with him since he needed constant attention and constant validation and didn't like being alone for even the length of a car ride so he'd take me with him even to places like his drug dealing friends house and he'd leave me in the car, sometimes for an hour or more, in the dark at night while he BS'ed with his friends. My mom was a chaotic mess since she takes massive risks just like my dad but she's not that bright so she crashed and burned constantly, sometimes very literally crashing and/or burning in the case of her dozens of drunk driving instances, she'd leave me for long stretches of time often because she was off on a bender or doing stupid shit. Both have faked suicide attempts for attention and one time when my mom wanted attention she told my school and the rest of the family that I had talked about and attempted suicide (I hadn't, I was like 11 or 12, and didn't have a history of depression so not prime candidate for suicidal behavior) which basically made the rest of elementary school hell since now they thought I had a dangerous mental illness.
Thank you for calling out the romantization of Harley and Joker's relationship. Movies aside, their story is so tragic and terrifying I honestly don't get why people think they're cute together.
Their relationship fills me with as much horror and dread as anything could.
Can we all agree that Margo is a treasure . Shes an angel for blessing us with her talents. If she wants to be in a bunch of random movies as Harley I will gladly eat it up
Fr tho 💅
I'd love to hear more of your thoughts on HPD as a diagnosis and some of the controversy relating to how it's overdiagnosed in women... I've seen some clinicians claim HPD is actually just a version of BPD that women tend to fall under because of how we're socialized and how our behaviors are portrayed. But I've also seen some claims that it is an independent, different diagnosis that is just way underdiagnosed in men.
I've met women diagnosed with BPD and it's not the same even just experiencing. I've also met women I suspect of histrionic disorder (based on the diagnostic criteria) and they further prove that point to me.
@@NathanaelNaused anecdotal evidence is not scientific evidence.
Was waiting for someone to say this
As a lesbian (aka both a gay and a girl), Harley is WAY sexier in BoP because it's easy to tell she's wearing clothes and styles SHE LIKES. They match her loud, colorful personality, they're comfortable, they're not all about looking perfect or having things seem effortless, and they're really just all about announcing who *she is* to everyone. If BoP Harley was flirting with me, I would absolutely go for it; if SS Harley was flirting with me I would feel like she was doing it for show or with some ulterior motive (I mean, I might still go for it because it's Margot Robbie, but I'd have a lot more questions about the sincerity of it.)
In the earlier parts of the movie she's not quite there yet, but she does eventually find her way to just doing sincerely what *she* wants to do, which is one of the hottest qualities any woman can have IMO. I don't think men are generally quite aware just how often women do things we don't actually want to because we feel like we're supposed to, or we don't think anyone else will do it, or we're pressured into it by someone we care about, whether said person is intentionally manipulative or not. And obviously this can and does affect anyone, but it's pervasive in subtle societal ways against women that I don't know if men even realize sometimes.
It would be super cool to see you react to Harley's relationship with Ivy in the Harley Quinn animated series. See if you think that is a healthy relationship or not. It obviously starts out on not so great footing but I'd love to see if the development is healthy or not.
I LOVE SOPHIEEE!! The conversations around the impact of Birds of prey and the male gaze and her character is such a big topic and ik it would be imposible to get in one video but kudos to yall for trying. Another great video
“If you romanticize Harley and joker please come see me or someone like me” THANK YOU
My biggest personal take-away from this is "instead of seeking attention, give it."
Thanks for this.
A friend of mine went through a breakup with a bad relationship of 9 years when birds of prey came out. It was a really meaningful movie to her
Watching this after reading She-Hulk opinions and reviews was perfect. Totally feels like many people have Histrionic Personality Disorder 😆 you guys are great 🥰🤩