John Dehlin's Hypocrisy is Hilarious and Sad - Midnight Mormons Episode 101
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- Опубліковано 8 чер 2024
- Armchair apologist and comedian Kwaku El and Radio Host Cardon Ellis discuss the latest of OG Utah aetheism, and it's fearless leader John Dehlin!
I used to be a salty ex mo, but I realized some podcasters have large influence over vulnerable people. I still don't believe in Mormonism but I still enjoy many parts of Mormon culture and have been shown tons of care by local Mormons here on the wasatch front. Enjoyed the show!
Rock on Spencer
You rock!
Every person who leaves the church goes through an angry phase and the angry phase can last for years. It's completely normal. It's simply a stage of grief. It's a miserable thing to realize that everything you've been taught is a lie. That's why it's so sad how active members demonize people who leave. Hardly anyone who leaves left bc they "wanted to sin"
@@jonbaker476 what do you call demonize? Bottom line is that people are people and sometimes all of us are guilty of using our free agency imperfectly.
I agree a poor approach can cause people to be offended and not want to listen but just because people don''t want to listen doesn't mean that they're not hearing the truth.
🎉🎉😂😂😂😂😂😂😂❤❤😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂💚😮😘😮🎉
Cardon, why the hell did you delete the comments on the CES letter videos?
We don’t delete comments unless the algorithm flags them for pornography or profanity. Sorry.
@@madmanmanx full of shit dude
“Joseph Smith was the original gangster of abolition” LOL
Ad hom isn't an attack on a person. It's attacking a person in order to discredit their argument without actually addressing the argument itself.
I personally have had interactions with Dan Peterson online and they BOTH attacked me personally instead of addressing the topic we were discussing. My experience was not unique. If you don't think they have a habit of ad hominin attacking people... you aren't very familiar with their work. In fact his habit for snark and attack is part of why he left FARMS or whatever he was working at at BYU.
I find it disingenuous to bemoan “AD hominim attacks” as an ex-Mormon. That’s all ex-Mormon subreddit is!
@@madmanmanx what is the appropriate response for someone who invested their time, talents, and faith in something they discover has been a fraud?
@@madmanmanx It's interesting, I haven't been able to find a _single_ comment by you _anywhere_ doing anything but attacking ex-mormons, to the point that it looks like fairmormon disabled comments on their own videos specifically because _you_ were spoiling any hint of moral high ground they might once have had.
@@madmanmanx
You forgot to use one of your socks, dog.
Kwaku...please Turn on the comments on your FairMormon videos on CES letter. Get a dialogue and let people decide what they want to believe. Thanks
Fat chance of that happening.
you can decide what you want to believe with or without a comment section.
Agreed. Easier to just shut down the dialogue though, isn't it? Those videos are deplorable and they need to be called out for it. This coming from an active member.
Really this is the “I am cool” argument???? 🤣🤣🤣
John Dehlin makes more money than Mormon apostles. John has attacked tithing in the past and it's funny that his followers donate to him considering he is a hypocrite. That was when my shelf broke. I couldn't understand why John would decry tithing so much and then go on to get all that money from his followers and now he makes more money than the apostles do.
Is this the guy (Cardon Ellis) that was arrested for trying to get a knife past airport security in 2010? Lol.
Lol "even the prophet gets ONLY a couple hundred grand stipend, that pays for rent"...
Nelsons worth last time I checked 5M. Plus what ever he can hide
Considering he is a heart surgeon I thought it would be more.
@@thewildroots4491 he's not a heart surgeon. He is the president of the corporation of the church of Jesus christ of Latter-day Saints. He use to be a heart surgeon.
I wish Kwaku would speak into the mic PLEASE!
Same lol
Or better yet, not speak at all.
I've been to so many channels recommended on my youtube feed that by the name and thumbnails seem like just other members of the Church doing some typical LDS stuff, jokes or sharing of experiences and history etc. Then I click and find out their entire channel is some nonsense anti-mormon garbage designed to lure in faithful members. This more novel form of anti-mormonism is so much more insidious than what I was used to be. I long for the days of good old Fawn Brody and "The God Makers". At least then I knew from appearances what they were up to.
I absolutely hate the way that the term "gaslighting" has been hijacked by people who know nothing about abuse. Gaslighting is when a perpetrator attempts to convince their victim that they are crazy/incredible so that they can't spot the abuse or trust their own perceptions. E.g. "you have a vivid imagination." Making your case in an argument that is in disagreement with someone else's is NOT gaslighting 😂 it's actually an insult to people who have been abused 🤦♀️
Unless your case is.... up is down and down is up.
So what is it when an organization, without which you are doomed to an eternity of sadness separated from god and family, knowingly suppresses information in order to cover up their past until they can no longer keep it under wraps, at which point they blame members for not knowing the truth they were trying to hide in the first place? What do you call it when that church tells everyone it has always been transparent about it's history so if members never knew about the peep stones or the multiple first vision accounts, or the mountain Meadows massacre, or the messy details of polygamy, it is the members' fault... THEY didn't pay enough attention in sunday school. THEY misunderstood the doctrine. THEY were just lazy learners. What do you call that?
I call it gaslighting because it meets the textbook definition of gaslighting. It hasn't been hijacked by people who know nothing about abuse, it's being used by people who have literally been abused by the church. The only reason it looks to you like people are misusing the term is because it's being applied to the very organization you don't even realize is abusing it's members. And do you know why they don't realize the church is abusing it's members? BECAUSE THAT'S HOW GASLIGHTING WORKS.
@@jonsjunkmailonly my brother there are a lot of members who have had to go through the process of examining these very questions and came back on the other side more strong in their testimony than before.
You sound like you're going through quite the thing. Just keep you faith in Christ bottom line and see where it all takes you personally. Its your business in the end. Between you and him.
@@khemingw and there are lots of victims who return to their abusers. That doesn't somehow make the abuse magically disappear. Also since faith is a firm belief in things for which there is no good evidence or despite evidence to the contrary, I'm not going to hold such an intellectually dishonest opinion of a legendary figure who is said to have sacrificed himself as part of a blood ritual in order to allow an all powerful god to forgive us for being exactly the way he made us.
@@jonsjunkmailonly I've known many people who abused themselves because they think its better to be spiteful (and prideful) rather than admit that they have been mistaken. Your choice.
Slam dunk Kwaku!
Dehlin sounds sincere and caring and most non mormons that listen to him think he is telling the truth he is cleaver at adding negative to the truth and it has broken latterday saint families up he is not a doctor and he knows how he hurts latterday saints he doesnt care please keep calling his lies about the church out enough is enough he has to be stopped you can tell the comments of his followers either believe him or enjoy hurting us please keep standing up for our authorities if you dont who will
I appreciate the efforts of those who take the time defending the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints against the claims made by its critics. I'm grateful we have platforms like this to discuss such issues. I will say, however, that while I agree with much of what is said in this video, I likewise feel there were some segments which should have been discussed more seriously, and with better clarity. For example, I think we can all agree there's nothing light-hearted or humorous about discussing suicide. Whether one is discussing suicide within the Church, within the LGBT community or within any other group, this is something which should always be addressed with serious sympathy and understanding. The segment of this video which talked about suicide seemed a bit too light-hearted to me.
Second, I'm glad the Mountain Meadows Massacre was discussed, but the guys in this video made it sound like many early Church members who took part in the MMM were executed, when in reality it was only one person, John D. Lee.
Finally, while I agree John Dehlin is now working to convince people to leave the Church (and for him to say he is unbiased in this regard is totally untrue), but I am not aware of Dehlin himself having started his own church. One could argue that the Open Stories Foundation is kind of like a church, but I haven't heard about Dehlin using OSF to create a church with its own unique doctrines and practices.
Aside from those critiques, you hit on many of the reasons why I find criticism of the Church to be problematic. For any prominent critic of the Church to suggest they are totally objective and without bias is not true. For any prominent critic to suggest they do not have financial motivations or a desire to gain a following is likewise not true. For any of them to say they never engage in ad hominem attacks is also not true. And finally, for any critic of the Church to suggest they never use a "begging the question" argument is not true either. A perfect example of the latter comes from the DVD "Jesus Christ/Joseph Smith" produced by Tri-Grace Ministries in 2007.
The introduction of this DVD states, “"This video has been produced out of love for our Lord Jesus Christ and love for our Mormon and Christian friends. We pray that it will touch the hearts of all who watch through the grace and truth of Christ Jesus."
If this DVD was made out of love, then why does it contain so many untruths starting with its premise? The premise is to compare Jesus Christ to Joseph Smith which is simply a false dichotomy since there is nothing in LDS scripture which teaches Joseph Smith is equal to Jesus Christ. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone is the savior of the world, something this DVD never states.
In any case, I am all for defending the Church but let us make sure we don’t fall into the same trap as our critics by twisting their words or downplaying important matters.
There was only one execution for the MMM. It was John D. Lee.
This is good stuff. The sheer amount of info packed into this was great. So many things said, almost in passing, that most members have no idea even existed.
Confession through projection
Bliss through ignorance.
Deleting CES Letter comments will delay the deflation rate of Mormon stats.
No one is deleting comments. You ex-Mormons like posting so much profanity and pornography to “troll” us that we must rely on comment algorithms to withhold questionable comments until we can review them. It’s the only show I produce that requires this function.
15:05 yes they get a Toyota, and it's probably on a fleet system where they track their mileage.
Does the prophet even get to drive himself though for security reasons?
12:24 this is an interesting claim. I agree, we aren’t guilty of the attractions or desires we feel, only how we act upon them. However, you saying that you had the thought to shoot them but didn’t act on it reminds me of Christ’s teaching that if you have anger towards your brother you have already committed murder in your heart. Or if you look upon a woman to lust after her you have already committed adultery. So we have this narrative that a person experiencing same sex attraction is not guilty of anything (which I agree with) but a man lusting after a woman is guilty (which I also agree with).
Is there a conflict here?
So we don’t care about truth? Just about “getting along”?
As a sister?
They ALL think they are special.
very good videos and excellent content, I only have one thing against you, why did it take so long to make a channel like this? where were you? However this channel is very valuable.
Hey Kimball when is the next episode coming up?
What kind of red bull is that Kwaku? I'm a big fan of those too. Btw who cares about the CES letter reacting to comment below
16:00
actually butch cassidy never shot anyone ... he was well known for that.
They don't know history
We don't condemn attraction? What if someone's attracted to little kids? Okay as long as you don't act out on it?
OMG that's bad. But look at their first 2 prophets taking women already married and 14 year old girls. They will defend it too
Our old bishop would plan a boating trip during October GC and those that would come would listen to conference on the radio on Saturday on their boats. Then listen to Sunday as we drive home. Fun time and kept the family close.
Yeah I agree with Kwaku, if you aren't at peace with your decision to leave or stay, you're going to lash out.
Lost track of how many times I've exploded on people on both sides after I left.
Oh please. Such a tired, worn out statement.
@@ChristianityRecap 4 months later 😂 Don't give a shit what you think.
Look up evergreen
Mormon edgy.... Hmm 🤔
"Mormon Edgy" has never worked. Comes off as dorky at best, un-Christ-like at worst.
Check out “Crazy Horses” by the Osmond Bros on UA-cam. “Mormon Edgy.” Lovably dorky.
So because LA is dangerous lying is AOK?
I was afraid to come out because I was taught it was evil from church. There are so MANY members and church teachings that talked bad about gay people. This is dishonest.
Hey Love and Light. Reach out man, I'd love to talk with you. I believe culturally that many issues are handled incorrectly with a very "small town" kind of attitude because each ward is inherently a small town. Some wards do it amazingly well, others botch it. I think thats a failing of the individual and not the whole however. I'd like to know more of your story. Reach out to me on FAIR.
Depends on where you live, too
Don't worry love and light, there's a beautiful life of cold, sterile celibacy waiting for you in the Church. Cardon wants to welcome you with open arms, bro, just no hugs, kisses or romance for the rest of your life, OK? Love you, brother. It's not the attraction, it's the action, alright? We're gonna talk about chicks in bikinis and lap dances at red bull parties and all the beautiful happy times we'll have with our wives and children someday while you have the privilege of being a spectator! Isn't that fun!! See... we LOVE you, man!!!
@@WARDRADIO What the hell does this have to do with church culture? You're telling someone that they are welcome to come and be accepted for who they are, as long as they don't date, hold hands, kiss, marry, have a partner or have sex for the rest of their lives. That is fake kindness.
I can't believe you guys talk about "suburban, cul-de-sac culture" as if that's some kind of problem people don't understand in the Church. You guys follow a group octogenarians religiously, while you mock people who leave that system for being "cookie cutter boomers" or some BS? I'm sorry, you have 80-year-old men telling you what underwear to put on and you follow them without question. I don't really think you're in a position to cast judgment, let alone call anyone cookie cutter, suburban or generic. Before you levy some idiotic response about how your choice to let someone tell you what underwear to wear is a mark of rugged independence, make sure that logic doesn't also apply to the people you're criticizing; unless you're trying to sound like more of an ass than you already are.
Furthermore, if you have something kind and inclusive to say to someone struggling with their identity in the Church, come out and say it. You sound like Michael Scott, "I would never say this to her face, but she's a wonderful person and a gifted artist." They already commented in the thread, tell the world how being a gay Mormon works out. Nothing to hide, right?
@@matthewdawson9364 so some places you can have a romantic partner, fully express yourself, marry, have kids and be openly gay in the church? It's a regional, cultural thing?
Whenever Kwaku drops the Mickey Mouse voice on Saints Unscripted, it completely ruins his entire point, even when it’s a coherent and well reasoned one.
😂😂😂
doesn't make any sense. If you can't restrain your personal idiosyncrasies in order to accept a valid point you're a poor judge of arguments.
Why don't you go Mormon Stories then and have this discussion with John Dehlin. But you won't, will you? To scared?
"chicken scratchings" - you mean like the Kinderhook plates? There used to be a common goal like educating the male leaders - you mean like the recent movement created by Sam Young to protect LDS children (now protect every child) that got him excommunicated? We used to love jokes like that - I listened to John Bytheway growing up who promoted good, clean humor, and I'm pretty sure he would not have promoted a picture with a guy surrounded by a bunch of women in bikinis. The threshold for an apologist is so low now - how about the threshold for someone to be anti-Mormon? Or even the threshold to be excommunicated? All you have to do is post on facebook or run a podcast to get excommunicated... We have more swagger because we have cool buildings - yep, and 100 billion (maybe slightly less now) in reserves, just sitting there for a rainy day. I wonder, how rainy does it have to get to crack that vault? What do you [athiests] have - um, science? And how many times has religion impeded and even tried to stop scientific progression and discovery? Go to the BYU theater building, we're fine with it - is that why Utah has a higher suicide rate among teens and particularly LGBTQ+ teens than anywhere else in the country? Or whenever Elder Oaks gives a talk teens take their own lives? This is a very serious subject, especially at the moment, and you're sitting there laughing? "Take it easy"? Wow... it must be nice to be so privileged. Your friend went online, heard what anti-Mormons were saying about how people and the church would react and grew fearful to come out the the point of considering self-harm - I'm sorry to hear that, and I don't want to take away from your friends experience at all; however, there are plenty of online sources produced by the Mormon church that I could point to that confirm these anti-Mormon fears, just look up general conference talks given by Elder Oaks for the past 8 or so conferences (one talk actually encourages the shunning of LGBTQ+ children and the advice he gives is to pray about it but that a likely answer from God would be to not allow that child to bring their partner home for the holidays, which I noticed is something you got pretty animated about). As for help being provided to LGBTQ+ teens, there are some programs out there, Encircle comes to mind, but I think you'll have trouble finding a program like this that is run by the LDS church. A bunch of anti-Mormons over in Logan Utah gave him a PhD - this strikes pretty close to home when you realize the goal of BYU (Egyptology comes to mind here). whelp boys, I'm only about 13 minutes into your video and as you can see there are already a plethora of issues to be found. I can't imagine the video gets any better from here... I'd continue but it's likely this comment will simply be deleted and forgotten or that comments will eventually be disabled like the rest of your videos...
@@dustin6253 Nice quote from Bruce R. McConkie, well except for the fact that it contradicts the parable of the good Samaritan, and that many teachings of Bruce R. McConkie have now been quietly disavowed as evidenced by the end of the printing of "Mormon Doctrine". The caravan seemed to be a good analogy when the church was rapidly growing which was also used as proof of the truthfulness of the church as it fulfilled the prophecy from Daniel of the Kingdom of God cut from stone that would fill the whole earth. But now that membership is not growing and might even be on the decline if we just look at active members the prophecy now used is one from Nephi stating that the saints will be "few in number". Realizing this decline the current prophet, Russel M. Nelson, has changed the rhetoric from the caravan moves on to calling all people back and telling them there is a place for them in the church. Basically a 180 degree change over 40 years.
@@dustin6253 Merry Christmas!
Really like your channel
Mormon apologetics used to be ad hominem attacks. Then it shifted to a kindler, gentler exposition of creative historicism. That having failed, now apparently it's back to ad hominem attacks.
We’re Insular? Hurry! turn off the comments.
😂😂😂
Wow the comments haven’t been turned off. Why do you guys bother? Really, why do you bother?
He’s right we do use circular reasoning, that’s not a bad thing
Why is not a bad thing? Just curious about your perspective.
@@kyliesmith729 because we don’t care that the reason we believe in the Book of Mormon is because we believe Joseph Smith is a prophet of God
@@johnlewis6526 oh i see what you mean.
I'm a lifelong member of the Church who has been a seminary and Gospel Doctrine teacher and served in multiple Bishoprics. I put 4 children through full-time missions. But I am now struggling with some matters of factual church history that is challenging parts of my traditional testimony. I have been searching online for resources to help me. I am not surprised to find obnoxious and insulting members of the Church like Caron Ellis and Kwaku El. All faiths have bad apples. But what does surprise me is that the LDS apologetic community takes these punks seriously. They are mean-spirited, insensitive and seem incapable of distinguishing reasoned discussion from tawdry gossip. I can say with sincere honesty that watching these two young men makes me ashamed to call myself a member of this Church. Their words and behavior has left me feeling sorrowful and even more unmoored from the Church. These boys should do the LDS Church a favor and stop airing these faith-eroding polemics.
You’re welcome to come and discuss any “matters of factual church history” anytime, anywhere with us my man. Strip yourself of any notions of who we are presented to you by people that hate us and you’ll find we are actually free-thinking and very knowledgeable. Me might even learn something from each other. If you’re emotionally and intellectually honest and reasoned, I am confident you will see sides of the story your “online resources” carefully omit and you’ll realize your being lied to more by anti-Mormons than any cultural ommission you may have discovered online. Nothing off limits… you down?
I'm very sorry to hear that you're battling with your testimony but you may be letting your struggle make you a little too oversensitive over two guys who are not here to build bridges, even though I see that they are caring and fair minded, they are here to stand up for what they believe is the truth. Even believers are too often not doing that. We need more courageous warriors like these MM out there like Jesus zealous for the House of God when the untrue, the corrupt and the Gadianton Robbers are in and outside of the Church trying to destroy it.
I say, God continue to strengthen them and prosper them.
@@dustin6253 A-damn-men.
@@madmanmanx it sounds like his opinion of you isn't informed by the "opinions of people who hate you"; his opinion of you comes from watching your videos and listening to the things you have to say.
More to your point, I'm genuinely curious what "anti-mormonn lies" you're referring to. Let's go point by point on every significant controversy surrounding the church and really unpack which side is being more honest.
I hate the term "anti-Mormon". I'm not anti-mormon. I'm for truth. With a little research anyone, and I mean anyone using just a smidgen of logic could figure out Old Joe was a false Prophet. And the fact is the church has hidden a lot of the embarrassing facts. Like Joe translated the The book of Mormon directly from the Golden plates. These guys actually made a video saying the church taught He may have used the seer stones all along which is a lie. They denied Joe practiced polygamy for 150 years and now we know he had up to 40 wives. The church new this all along. I don't dislike Mormons. I would always invite the missionaries in for coffee and have a discussion.[they would never come back] But they were always polite and respectful as was I. Galatians 1:8
"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!" The best example of the absolute redemptive power of Christ is on the Cross. The thief turned and said "remember me when you come into your kingdom.." Jesus said " from this day you shall be with me in paradise" He didn't have a chance to be Babtised or go to church or have a temple ceremony. It was his simple statement of faith and belief. May God bless you and Lead you correctly.
Yeah but we have some cool mormon artists...
Yeah but they all left the Church though...
Yeah but they're so cool still...
Yeahh...
Hypocrisy? At 15:10 you minimize the $200K "stipend" that GA's are paid and then at 42:10 you criticize John Dehlin because you say he's getting super rich because you think he's making the same amount.
200K? More like 120K....which, is not only pretty low for a CEO of a 16 million person company...but is also pretty low for an experienced heart surgeon. I just dropped my mic, so you can go back to daddy Dehlin
@@Ether-pb5gb Mic drop so hard that BTS would be proud son
Ha ha . . too true !
@@DavidNellTheHarbinger haha thanks
@@Ether-pb5gb it’s 130k now (FYI)
Ummm... It seriously sounds like you guys have never watched enough of Mormon Stories to make a valid judgement here. The discussion between you two and the finger pointing and name calling, makes John Dehlin look like a saint in comparison. I understand you two don't represent the church, but if you did, It would be hard to see Christ's involvement anywhere within this stuff.
So true! These quacks will be and are irrelevant.
Why do you guys hang around? You don’t believe in God anymore, you don’t believe in a prophet anymore, you don’t believe in the church anymore. Why can’t you just leave and leave it all alone? John Dehlin can’t leave either. He runs his huge mouth, he lies his ass off, he is very deceptive, all while talking about what? ..... deception.
Midnight Mormon is doing a great job of telling the truth. John Dehlin is making a ton of money while trying to push people off the Jesus Bus. Just stay away and enjoy your Sundays off, not being guided by Gods prophet, not serving in your ward and not paying tithing.
That’s all right, let’s turn the page ... Don’t go away mad ... Just go away - Motley Crue
@@shellyfromseattle676 Well Said! Buzz off antis!
@@shellyfromseattle676 im a member of the church and i still think John Dehlin looks more of a saint than these guys. If these guys are the supposed influencers of the church’s youth today, sorry to say this but i have a hunch more and more youth will turn to Mormon Stories podcast. I dont think these guys are doing a tremendous job defending our faith with their condescending and vengeful tactics towards Dehlin and his crew.
@@shellyfromseattle676 Name one thing John Dehlin has lied about.
when is kwaku coming out of the closet?
When he gives a tearful interview with John on "Mormon Stories" in a couple of years time.
@@Themanyfacesofego Like Jesus told Satan on the mountain, 'in your freakin' dreams buddy'.
@@khemingw We will come back to this thread...in a few years.
This video is so goooood. So many quotable comments. BEST comment 5:40 to 5:55
Anti- WELL don't you think it is strange that Joseph Smith did this charlatanry...
Us- Nah, I don't believe you
Anti freak out- What ajfkjdfjkabf!!!?
🤣🤣🤣
I though Mormon doesn't accept Black members? I have met many missionary guys, Mormon members, they are nice and cute. Those 2 guys make me doubt. the way that say, the way they act, look like multilevel marketing and not honestly at all
You cant look back on Christian history as Christians !!
? No people have ever been perfect but no other belief has affected the history of man for good more than the Christian faith and I hate to make an all inclusive statement but if you don't know that, you either have a very insufficient knowledge and understanding of history or you are blinded by some personal bias.
@Diamond Dave one of the greatest accomplishments of Christianity is the outlawing of slavery which now only operates among rogue groups and not openly and legally by every nation on earth as it used to be.
The standards of living have improved all over the world because of western culture inventions which are the benefits of freedom.
Christian culture attitudes on how the rights of individuals (especially in slavery) are nothing like the horrors that once were daily the plight of the poor or accused persons even in nations that care less about such things because of how Christianity has salted the world.
@Diamond Dave As the history of man reveals there have been advances and regressions of culture as well as power, depending on the strength of the faith in whatever nation it dwells.
You have to look at the entirety of things rather than your expectations of perfection. For a faith that begun with only 13 Jews and a world where every nation had slavery a legal part of their operations, the fact that some still have it in some form doesn't take away the fact that the culture of Christ has influenced many things of the world for good that most people benefit from, more or less, today.
@Diamond Dave I always say that I am blessed whether I know it or not. That's because we don't have to realize God's mercy working for us for it to be true and happening. A less shallow knowledge of history would help for most people though,
@Diamond Dave suggestion: book, Dominion by Tom Holland. Explains the influence of the Christian faith throughout history. The good and the bad.
)3:00
you are '90's democrat ... just like clinton ?
which one ... bill, or hillary ?
These guys are amazing! Modern Day Strippling Warriors!
I'm not exactly aligned with y'alls' political perspectives, but I enjoyed the discussion nevertheless!
Glad to have you bro :)
Kwaku condemning hypocrisy is like Josef Mengele condemning medical malpractice.
You discredit yourself greatly sir with this inane comparison of a very young man who has no history of committing, supporting or participating in the horrors of Nazi Germany.
Also, I was homeless in the Tenderloin years ago. Honestly even when I'd watch John Delin and listen to him talk, I've kind of wanted to show him around parts of India I've lived in like Dahod.
Honour killings, acid attacks, religious / clashes, mob attacks gang rape in the street, etc.
Never understood why he thinks Mormonism is the most dangerous thing.
Dehlin has never said "Mormonism is the most dangerous thing." You're deliberately misrepresenting his position. He's critical of mainstream Mormon leadership, as well he should be, while at the same time supportive of Mormon culture, generally.
@@whoshoe537 I said he THINKS. Not SAID. That is the impression / vibe I always have got from him.
Christ 😂 Can't even give a perspective without one of his worshippers screaming in to tell you that your wrong on your own perceptions 😂
You know I'm an ExMo, right?
Hugh Nibley is the most brilliant writer I think I've ever read from. John Dehlin isn't even a Doctor
This is awful. I was really hoping to understand more about JD and instead I felt like I was listening to a bunch of middle schools kids complaining. Hard to take u guys seriously
Then don’t... welcome to adulthood T. Thompson.
By openly and unapologetically fomenting contention, you and your co-host are yourselves are acting in brazen opposition to LDS church teachings and exposing your bold hypocrisy:
“For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stireth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.
“Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.”
(3 Ne. 11:29, 30.)
This is an object lesson in the failings of the LDS church, that its adherents and apologists cannot find it in themselves to follow the church's own firm, explicit teachings.
(3 Ne. 11:29, 30.)
John Dehlin wants families to stay together. That a faith crisis doesn’t have to mean the end of a marriage and the break up of a family. You have no idea what you are talking about. You have made a fool of yourself.
@@dustin6253 the church often tells spouses to get divorced if their spouse loses faith.
Dustin H, well said !!!
Sorry Kris D. I believe in freedom of religion and didn’t mean to insult your prophet.
@@dustin6253 smoking crack, huh? I’m guessing you are 12-16 years old.
@@mykingdom7121 nope
If Dehlin had a magic wand, he would rip apart every LDS family.
@@sdfotodude imagine a self delusion so deep that puppies are ugly, sunshine is hateful and the Mormon church destroys families
That’s utterly ridiculous, Barnes. Jeez [facepalm.]
So if you aren’t Mormon, you are atheist? Kwaku..... why say that? It’s inaccurate and just weird.
This is just what I've seen, but when someone leaves the church they hardly *ever* go to another church, they abandon belief altogether
It’s not an inaccurate statement. “My lived experience” (a favorite phrase of most secular progs and other ex-mos) is that of my own family and extended family, that they’ve gone 80-100% atheist after leaving the LDS faith. You must acknowledge and agree with my lived experience. Sound familiar?
People always leave faith in God. The snowflake ex-mos think they are special, that nobody has ever left a belief in God or their church. The points being made are that ex-Mos just think they are special and have found that they have a massive audience and opportunities to cash in either with social media sympathy or actual money making. 😢
Either the church is true or it isn't. Dehlin found out it wasn't true.
You make youtube money too. It's the platform.
Pot meet kettle
Love it
Yeah the church was abolitionist until it got to Utah and decided to allow slavery in the territories original constitution. Ok I guess.
I found that part of the Mormon black history very sad but (reading the book series, Standing On the Promises) the Church's attempts to deal with a very difficult issue, especially after the extreme persecution that they went through being chased from state to state is all human failings but in the end, 'no unhallowed hand' was ever successful at stopping the progress of the Church worldwide.
How do these apologists rip on ANYONE for making money off of their content from their followers who VOLUNTARILY give it, when Mormonism has taken nearly a trillion dollars from their members FORCIBLY with the threat of losing EVERYTHING if you don't. The hypocrisy is unreal. 🤦🏽♂️
These guys are taking the church way to seriously. They will be out in three years. They are like a cross between info wars and Glenn beck
Cardon Ellis.....You are showing your ignorance. You obviously have not listened to John Dehlin! How embarrasing.
@@dustin6253 Why does Alma the younger get an angel and Korihor gets a demon? What is it that separates them to get opposite messengers? It’s the way the church frames people based on how willing they are to accept their bullshit.
Honestly neither Korihor or Alma existed, but the modern day examples are exmormon that question and don’t get answers and the members that give in to abuse.
How may gay members who committed suicide because they felt neglected by the church? John was excommunicated because the church can't resolve this problem?
To: @Young Guava
Re: suicide rates in Utah
You clearly haven't done your homework.
One-sided analysis is neither information, reason, nor truth.
Gay Youth Suicides in Utah
October 11, 2017
by Mike Parker
Every individual lost to suicide is a tragedy, and there should be no room for excluding or ostracizing anyone because of their sexual orientation, including and especially within families. As of 2015, Utah ranks 6th in the nation in suicides of people ages 10 to 24 (at a rate of 16.66 per 100,000), so clearly there is a problem in our state that needs to be addressed.
And yet I’m concerned about statements that continue to push the unproven claim that gay youth commit suicide in Utah at rates higher than other states because of Utah’s religious culture. To the best of my knowledge, there is no data on the reasons for suicides, so claiming that there’s something unique about gay youth in Utah is an assertion without evidence.
If it’s true that Mormonism is driving youth suicides in Utah, then we should see a similar suicide rate among youth in other states dominated by religions that are similarly opposed to gay identity, gay lifestyle, and gay marriage. But we don’t: The suicide rates for ages 10 to 24 in Georgia (9.18, #33), South Carolina (9.91, #29), West Virginia (8.88, #37), Alabama (9.56, #32), and all other Southern states as well, are all lower than Utah’s rate. Religious acceptance of homosexuality is at least as low in those states as it is in Utah; why the dramatic difference in youth suicide?
And the reverse must also be true: States with broad acceptance of gay identity, gay lifestyle, and gay marriage must have lower rates of teenage/young adult suicides than Utah; right? Then why does fairly liberal Colorado (16.69, #5) rank just barely ahead of Utah? And why does South Dakota (25.22, #2) differ so much from North Dakota (7.81, #42), when the two states have nearly identical cultures? And why has Utah seen teen/young adult suicides increase by 66% between 2001 and 2015, but Oregon (+78%) and Washington state (+68%), where gays are supposedly warmly embraced, have had higher rates of increase in youth suicide in the same time period?
And, most telling of all, why has the national suicide rate for teens/young adults gone from 6.95 in 2001 to 9.15 in 2015 (an increase of 32%), when acceptance of the gay identity, gay lifestyle, and gay marriage have increased dramatically throughout the United States during the same period? Wouldn’t we expect to see a decrease in the nationwide suicide rate of youths, including gay youths?
The problem here is that suicide is complex, and rarely boils down to a single issue. The narrative that Utah culture and religion are a significant cause of teen suicides in the state isn’t backed up by the evidence, does a disservice to the people of the State of Utah, and does a disservice to people of faith.
Are you or someone you know struggling with thoughts of suicide? Call 800-273-8255 or text “HELP” to741-741 to get help immediately.
.
SALUTATIONS
.
“The truth," Dumbledore sighed, "It is a beautiful and terrible thing, and should therefore be treated with great caution.”
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
.
You’ve been potterized,
by Harry Abel Potter,
… a very able potter.
.
Expecto Patronum!
================ * * *
.
@@harryabelpotter9630
NBC News
Mormon church involvement
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which has been criticized for strongly encouraging its members to support Proposition 8, for the first time assigned a dollar value of nearly $190,000 to its role in getting the initiative passed.
More than half, or $97,000, went to the time staff of the Utah-based Mormon Church devoted to the Yes on 8 campaign, according to the church's report. Another $21,000 was for the use of church buildings and equipment during the campaign. Most of the rest went to airline tickets, hotels and meals for church officials.
Then 2013 they reversed its policy regarding gay policy.
LDS leaders are good at this. They change policy whenever there's controversial issue that may damage their reputation.
Let's face it, the church is having a hard time resolving this issue.
Utah has the highest prozac sales. An anti depressant drugs. Because LDS church is a high demand religion.
to: @@bagnasbayabas
re: drugs & sex
People in homosexual ‘marriages’ are 3 times more likely to commit suicide:
.
I am just guessing, but I suggest that you are not inclined to allow the Church to criticize what you spend your money on; and, no offense, but, what the Church spends its money on is none of your business.
.
you said,
Then 2013 they reversed its policy regarding gay policy.
Abel
I am not familiar with your above statement. What reversal ... and why do you object?
.
you said,
LDS leaders are good at this.
They change policy whenever there's controversial issue that may damage their reputation.
Abel
I disagree.
I would characterize things differently. The Church is flexible and responds quickly in time and space. The Church is famous for pioneering "best practices" in all areas.
.
you said,
Let's face it, the church is having a hard time resolving "this" issue.
Abel
"This" is another dangling pronoun.
.
you said,
Utah has the highest prozac sales. An anti depressant drugs. Because LDS church is a high demand religion.
Abel
there are several explanations.
One that sounds intuitively true is the ideal that the Saints don't drink alcohol but they do take legal drugs.
.
Abel
So my observation is that ~
you make an accusation.
I debunk your accusation.
you make another accusation.
It's time for you to admit when you're wrong starting with the ideal that Gay youth suicide rates are not higher because of the Church. The article I shared with you if proof that the Church is not responsible for high rates of gay youth suicides in Utah.
First you need to admit the truth and then... You owe me and the world
Admit and apologize.
cya
@@harryabelpotter9630 will you clarify what you mean the church promotes best principles in all areas?
To: @@Cyrusmagi
Re: "best practices"
you said,
will you clarify what you mean the church promotes best principles in all areas?
Abel
First of all,
it's "best practices"
not best principles
The Google dictionary says,
quote "
professional procedures that are accepted or prescribed as being correct or most effective.
Secondly,
This is a common knowledge term
Thirdly,
If you didn't or don't have common knowledge ~ you should at the least look up a term yourself instead of asking someone else to do your homework for you.
Fourth,
As an example:
At one time, the best practice known to man to heat a home was with a fireplace.
Then best practice advanced.
Someone discovered that a pot belly stove worked better.
Then they used coal.
Then they used oil
Then they used gas.
So ...
my point is that the Church is flexible.
As new "best practices" evolve, the historic record shows that the Church is usually at the forefront of practices.
As an example:
In the effort against child abuse ~
the Church has undergone a project to put windows in all of the classroom doors.
Our anti-abuse policies are considered "state of the art" and others ask us for advice on how to handle the problem.
Along with this, I might add that, the record of the Church is favorably compared against all other organizations including government and secular.
Lastly
I have two questions.
.
Are you an adult or a minor?
.
What kind of faith tradition do you follow or are you an atheist?
.
in any case,
We wish you well,
HAPPY HOLIDAYS
.
Way to go you guys - the new defenders
How dare you lump everyone who has left the church with "these guys". John Dehlin has done a lot for the ex-Mormon community. Do I think he's perfect...no, of course not. But he doesn't use the gaslighty and dismissive language that you guys are using against all ex-Mormons, against Mormons. I seriously can't believe that at one time, I would have agreed with you guys. Please take a look at yourselves and how you're talking. It's seriously so rude. Also, how can you act like your friend coming out is no big deal and yet you feel like if he acts on his gayness, it is not okay? Sick, seriously sick. Everyone leaving the church is on a journey. Eventually they will find their footing, but please don't be such a jerk about them while they're finding that footing.
Ah, thank you. You just renewed my faith in Mormons.
John Delin comes from a place of wanting to help people who have finally decided to think for them selves and don’t even know where to start. People like Exmo lex and John Delin both have helped me so much to be confident and know that I have always been capable of thinking and making decisions for myself and that I was just giving that agency to a church that was like many other churches. I’ve gone from happy, to scared, to angry about the truths they uncover, and they always bring me back and let me know that it’s how it is with so many exmos and I’m so glad I not alone.
Exactly. I left at 14 and i am not going back.
John Dehlin tells the truth about Mormonism. Why can’t the Mormon church do the same?
What is the "ex-mormon community?" How is that even a thing? Dehlin is good at shaming others but he is just a scared little boy who throws rocks and then runs away to cry.
You guys have such a biased perspective. You may disagree with John Dehlin philosophically but are greatly misrepresenting his intentions. Learn how to love your enemies.
@@dustin6253 where did he say that?
@@dustin6253 So not to "masquerade his intentions" then. He says he uses people's personal stories to inform and inspire people and deliver difficult information they would not have otherwise found because arguing doesn't do any good.
@@dustin6253 I don’t know why you think delivering information to people in a palatable way is a bad thing, but okay.
These bozos are paid enemies of Dehlin’s. Paid by the $100 Billion bullying Moron Mormon church/ cult.
We see what you is- Prophet Nelson’s & Oak’s lap dogs! 🐩 🐕
Don’t you agree with Jesus that thoughts are sinful too? You guys are seriously confused 🫤
Oh, look! Anti-Mormons don't like this video! What a surprise.
I can’t believe The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints condones this podcast. You guys are so toxic
So where did you read that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints condones this podcast?
Lol. Hi Rachael. We are totally “condoned” by the church. I’m taking my cues straight from the top. I just had breakfast with Russel M. Nelson to talk pre-show and I’m gonna get coffee with Bednar Afterwards to make sure my podcasts are up to snuff. They condone the crap out of me!
@Cardon Ellis
John Dehlin hardly ever uses sarcasm to make his points. These two hardly do anything else.
What does the church teach about "fomenting contention?" The LDS church teaches NOT to engage in contentious discussions/fights with/about others who disagree with church teachings - REGARDLESS of what these others may do - and that "the adversary" rejoices in contention.
These two guys demonstrate in their raised voices, polemic manner, and hostile sarcasm that they themselves don't take church teachings seriously. Incredibly un-Christ-like. A perfect portrait-in-minature of what's so very wrong with the LDS church.
Well, seeing as how you're claiming to be a spokesperson of the church, which is supposed to be the true church of the living, resurrected JESUS, it's a little weird how you're immitating worldly rappers. It's strange how you, Kwaku, portray yourself in the exact opposite way that Christ told people to be. I don't think John Dhelin is off at all
So Kwaku....you are fine with LGBTQ+? “If you have 8 kids in Utah, 2 will be gay”. So you only have to tell 2 of your 8 kids they aren’t worthy and will never marry, be loved by a spouse, and have children. Then hope they don’t take their own lives?
I have heard John Dehlin's speech on TedX. Seems like a well meaning guy but correlating suicide rate with an ancient regulation on human behavior is just questionable at best. Also, he attacks the LDS church when such guideline is also what is espoused by mainstream Christianity like the bigger religion - Catholicism. He seems to just ignore other significant factors that may affect suicidal behavior in LDS families like differences in the ways these kids were raised and also other environmental influences. I am appalled as a researcher of his obvious bias. He does not even hide it.
Catholicism has always had an (unofficial) place for gays -- holy orders. Mormonism only has heterosexual marriage. That's why the suicide rates aren't the same.
@@joeoleary9010 My point is that this organization has always been against LGBT so what is the real reason for the increasing suicide rates? That requires further research don't you think. JD, respect to him is jumpy at best.
I think you'll find Kwaku way more in agreement with John Dehlin than you in his LGBTQ positive Sacrament Talk: kwakuel.wordpress.com/2017/06/11/the-armor-of-god/
John Dehlin has made multiple racist comments on Kwaku, then criticizes the Church and his faith. Kwaku fires back with a video and Dehlin is now victimizing himself.
Can you send me a link to the racist comments?? Thanks
Cant people be critical of a faith they lived in for 40 years????
@@krisd6090 is it ok for Dehlin to be critical of the church but no one can be critical of his message? I’m not trying to be rude just actually asking
Give 1 example of dehlin being racist.
@@americathebeautiful9613 his message is largely based on truth, evidenced by the fact that apologists immediately go to ad hominem attacks.
“Begging the question” is the biggest fallacies anti Mormons and atheists use. Every anti argument has some form of “begging the question” imbedded in them
This video is gold. I’m not really a fan of Kwaku, but this whole dialogue was amazing. Maybe do a podcast made to counter Mormon stories and literally base videos in episodes he has done
Great!
Can you give some examples of anti mormons begging the question?
Counter Mormon stories? On what subject?
@@247imhungry
I’m confusing begging the questions and appeal to ignorance. I’ll give examples of both below.
“If society reset and we had to rediscover everything, science would all be the same but religion would be completely different” is trying to prove their is mo God by making and arguement that relies on the assumption that there really is no God (BTQ)
“I can’t be a member of a church that believes my lesbian daughter is going to burn in hell for eternity” Is trying to prove the church’s understanding of damnation to an eternal pit of fire is wrong... but we don’t believe in an eternal pit of fire for sinners. The church has the nicest resorts saves for sinners when compared to other Christian faiths (ATI)
“Joseph Smith is a sex deviant because he married many woman” tries to prove Joseph Smith was a sex deviant by saying he married many woman because he was a sex deviant.
Important nitpick, there’s no such thing as homophobia. No one is scared of homosexuality; there may be a disgust response or worry that “the times they are a changin.’” But none of that is homophobia and you may want to describe this as a disgust response; It’s more accurate, the connotation of the word disgust will resonate better with people who you’re trying to persuade, and it will help to make it clear what we’re talking about. Much like how we should stop calling neonatal murder abortion; by being imprecise we allow rot to grow in our society and fail to face difficult truths which slows our progress.
“Dallin” “mcconkei”, “kimball”?!! “ lol it’s logical that you are an apologist other wise your family loses their legacy and income and please stop using black ppl as props
Kwaku is lying!!!!!!!!!!! he is being subsidized by a foundation that get money directly from the LDS Church. Hypocrisy much?
Oh yes the Church of John Dehlin of Latter-day Virtue Signalers....John Dehlin and his Mormon Stories cohorts are only capable of using reductio ad absurdum and Gish Gallop tactics in their propaganda “podcasts”. He is the epitome of a wolf in Kirkland brand clothing😂😂
You like white washed history I suppose doc?
@@jcee6886 is that a “drive-by” quip or do you actually have a salient point? I actually love history in all its forms. Give me ANY historical topic and it won’t be difficult to find differing versions, accounts, revisions, protectionist focal points, etc...so again, do you have a salient point?🤷🏽♂️
@@drdlehrsch32 I’ll toss a historical issue out...Book of Abraham. I’ve heard so many apologetic rebuttals and they just don’t work for me. They are very weak arguments and most defy logical thinking.
So would love to get your take on why you still believe the Book of Abraham is true or that it’s scripture etc. It’s the smoking gun in my opinion.
Looking forward to your response.
Dr DLehrsch32 cut the flowery language! Try rebutting Dr. Robert Ritner. He's a much better debater than you.
Dr D Lehrsch:
In the end John Dehlin won.
Kwaku's uploads critical of anti Mormons, were removed from the internet. They never kept the comments open, and after a backlash from Dehlin's supporters, disappeared.
I genuinely feel sorry for Kwaku. The cancelling of his pet project ( This is the show) by Fairmormon was a terrible blow. In the latest "Midnight Mormons" he is deeply depressed. All the life has gone out of him, and looks ill. He did not speak, despite others kindly trying to draw him into the conversation. Instead he looked sadly at his hands.
His fate serves as a warning to those who would try to oppose the might of the anti Mormons. You will come unstuck.
Hugh Nibley is the most brilliant writer I think I've ever read from. John Dehlin isn't even a Doctor
I'm an exmo and I still greatly respect Nibley. I disagree with him on some stuff but that man had more passion, wisdom and knowledge in one of his fingers than the entire presidency has as a whole