it did really feel like Bioshock was, and i don't mean to be rude here, dumbed down System Shock 2, absolutely not story wise, but gameplay wise, it feels like Bioshock took some mechanics from ss2 but what they really took from ss2 was the story telling, and its still pretty damn great in the Bioshock games
BioShock definitely streamlined the formula and was more focused on being approachable. The end result was an incredible game that blended a great narrative with fun gameplay. It may not be a true immersive sim, however you define that, but it had its own magic.
I played System Shock 2 when it came out. I was a kid- it was terrifying. In first person shooters, I would clear the level of enemies, and wander around looking at things, immersing myself in the worlds that the designers had made. System Shock 2’s emphasis on exploration and wandering and rummaging was wonderful. When Bioshock came out, I played it over and over and over again. They both gave me that wander, rummage, contemplate gameplay loop. Excellent games that I’m glad I was able to experience. Thanks for making this video! Great essay.
After watching (and really enjoying) the whole video I was shocked to see the low number of views and subscribers you have, I hope the algorithm will be kinder to you in the future!
I beat system shock 2 recently and i have got to say the main reason i love system shock 2 more then bio-shock is the pure immersion of it, i have never got sucked in to a game world more. The feeling of exploring the von-braun as you here it creaking and falling apart around you is so tense. The combat is amazing, along with the immersive and tense audio that can truly make you feel like your in the game world its truly a work of art and i loved it.
It's crazy that I was massively disappointed by Bioshock but rly liked Bioshock 2. It improves everything I think needed improving in the original. I thought I was insane, such a high rated game that is so dissonant and cacophonous in every regard of its design. Every aspect of it is in conflict with each other, whereas System Shock 2 is harmonious in mostly every regard. Bioshock had no glue to tie its parts. Which sucks because some of those parts are rly good.
Mmm. Good production values, clean edits, solid points and message, pleasant voice. Yes, I do believe I'll subscribe to see what comes of this. Subscriber 118.
Amazing analysis. I really love the System Shock games. I first played Ss2 and now I'm playing 1. I Can't tell wich one I like the most. I agree they might be a bit frustrating at the beginning but wow... They become sooo fun to play once you asimilate the mechanics and controls. Also System 1 is insanely detailed for 1994. I can't wait for the remake. Im also playing Bioshock and I like it as well. I can understand why is it considered such a great game. But tbh I personally like System S even more.
There are two reasons System Shock and System Shock 2 failed to sell in big numbers. The first is both games were kept exclusive to the PC. Had System Shock's developers attempted to release their games on consoles they would have done very well. The second issue was the complexity of the games (especially the second one). The number of keys required to play was so ludicrous. It was so bad the running joke was- playing System Shock 2 was like learning how to use a new OS.
B4Brandoss made a video about 2 month after this one came out, connecting the sys and bio games in a legitimate way. Though extremely low key, they are connected in lore.
Overall interesting video tho I have some thoughts (This comes from someone who has beaten all the System Shock and Bioshock games) I apologize in advance if this response is scattered as I added to it as I watched. Gotta say I disagree with almost everything you said about Bioshock but still always interesting to see an opinion even one I disagree with I didn’t go into this expecting to feel the need to defend Bioshock but given what you have said I have a lot to say. No one hates Bioshock 2, most love it especially nowadays The idea that anyone hates it is outdated and misinformed Infinite is the more controversial and divisive one Also I feel a lot of people who have heard of Bioshock have heard of System Shock even if many haven’t played it. As for the similarities between SS2 and Bioshock, I think there are similarities and differences. Storywise there are some similar beats but I don’t feel they are the same. I agree that it’s best to like both and not act like one is better. And unlike some I enjoyed the last part of Bioshock just as much as the earlier parts and don’t think that the blend of content is bad or is different from previous areas even if not everyone did. I disagree with the idea that Bioshock has 3 split types of gameplay as aside from certain story moments they are all blended together and I don’t think the game gets worse as the game goes on. And it does feel like an underwater city. I do disagree with the idea that it goes downhill at all. For SS2 I found the later part of that game hard at times Bioshock is more forgiving and SS2 is more harsh with some of the stats systems, some prefer one or other. Aside from that, it’s always nice to see another video on SS2 even if I disagree with almost everything that was said on Bioshock. In the end both are great but if I had to choose then I personally prefer Bioshock to SS2 (yeah weird coming from someone with the username shodanpedia) but both are still great. But as much as I like the Von Braun, I disagree with the idea that Bioshock’s world is worse. I feel like this video is coming from the perspective of someone someone who prefers SS2 over Bioshock, which I get but as a fan of both games I feel like it misrepresents Bioshock. Interesting choice of including a guide in there I’m one of the people who have played both games and still prefers Bioshock overall but both games are great Also Bioshock’s Rapture does feel like a real place, it’s layout makes sense and it’s the random at all, like I’m not sure how you can to that conclusion cause imo it’s wrong or at least misinformed/misunderstood. Like how does SS2’s world feel more real or less random? Cause to me they both feel real and equally as interesting. I would say what you said is straight up false but I understand opinions and all. As for innovation when the gameplay is good I don’t mind having something similar And yes I did start with the Bioshock games As for upgrades I think both games do it fine, and Bioshock has more noticable poppers and upgrades at times but SS2 also has you increase in power but in a slightly different way BTW you said you’d say why Bioshock was better in some ways but never did it Also don’t forget about SS1, Bioshock 2, and Infinite As gonna be real with you here, I like SS1 more than SS2.
As someone who likes both games but loves Bioshock, I disagree with almost everything you said on Bioshock and feel you misrepresent/misunderstand it (at least the parts you criticized). I’m glad you were civil about it, even if I disagree I m glad you weren’t openly angry. Nobody hates Bioshock 2, most people love it Infinite on the other hand has more varying opinions Sure maybe things were different 10 years ago but nowadays that’s how most feel. In terms of similarities and differences, they have both though aside from some similar beats they have different stories. Bioshock’s world felt like a real place, I have no idea how could think it doesn’t cause it’s layout feels real and in no way is random and I have no idea how you came to that conclusion cause I don’t think it makes any sense. Cause it feels like you ignored or didn’t understand Rapture’s layouts. So I feel you misrepresent it and even though this is all subjective, I feel like you got it wrong. Also you seem to be biased towards system Shock which is fine but you said you would talk about how bioshock is better but never did, just feels like false advertisement. Upgrade wise I think both are fine and Bioshock has noticable upgrades just not the same way as SS2 and gameplay wise I though Bioshock was more fun cause it was less stressful. SS2 is harder later on and Bioshock I loved it from start to finish, the idea that it gets worse overtime or that SS2 always gets better is just imo wrong. But the idea that Bioshock 2 always gets worse or that SS2 only gets better is not I very much disagree with. And art style wise I prefer Bioshock. I also would have wished you would have brought up SS1, Bioshock 2, and Infinite as they have their own similarities and differences. As for SS1, I had more fun with it and enjoyed it more due to it being less stressful and just having a lot to it that worked.
I'd have loved to get more into SS1, Bioshock 2 and Infinite but that would end up being hours long. I know a lot of people want to move onto the Infinite drama (and personally I do agree that its got a lot more problems as a Bioshock game than 2 does) but despite what everyone says there's still a ton of Bioshock 2 hate out there, its just quiet now and generally held by older gamers
Good video but I have a few issues. I like them both but I have some issues with SS2(You focused more on Bioshock so I am going to focus more on System Shock) I don't think the character building in System Shock 2 was handled the best (there was no character building in System Shock 1 BTW so don't say that my suggested changes to character building are "not System Shock"). You need to speck into research to beat the game which I think is unacceptable in a game like this that prides itself on being able to build your character however you want. Repair and maintain. Repair allows you to fix already broken items and maintain stops items from breaking in the first place. Maintain is way more useful there is repair to the point of repair being worthless Why couldn't have these been 1 skill ? Also the fear that you could mess up your build is very much present. The game is so stingy with points that making a mistake early on can make the game significantly less fun. The game is so stingy with points that you can't just mix and match to experiment if you want to play in an even remotely optimal manner. Implants don't help you meet minimum skill requirements which limits you even more. Next I think the inventory space being so limited discouraged experimentation. If you can only hold a few weapons you are less likely to switch weapons and just stick to what you know works Kind of stagnating the gameplay. I think how they could have fixed this is having dedicated inventory space for weapons (before you complain that this makes the game to easy and is "not System Shock" the first System shock actually had dedicated inventory space for weapons.) OSA characters were just bad and had no value outside of novelty. The abilities are to expensive and not that good. I think if they were more usable in addition to a regular build as opposed to being an alternative they would be better. Exotic weapons, Exotic weapons stink of "overbalance" .Overbalance is when a developer is scared something will make a game to easy so they restrict it heavily but then it becomes worthless. The premise of Exotic weapons is that you take a short term hit for long term benefit. You can't spec into Exotic weapons until later. The only really good one is the crystal shard. The other ones don't do much better if any better at all then regular weapons. Their ammo count is just as stingy if not more so and they require high maintain and research to use optimally. My issue is less that they required a dedicated build and more that they weren't worth a dedicated build. I didn't like exploring the Von Braun. I felt like it was to samey and to dark with not enough color which made everything blend together. Before you say that SYSTEM SHOCK IS A HORROR GAME IT HAS TO BE DARK !!!!!! Go look at the first system Shock. It is super colorful. Rapture just has way more distinct landmarks. I will agree that Bioshock went to far in streamlining, but that doesn't mean System shock 2 was perfect and some of it's changes were not for the better. Yes it has less options but the reason people don't mind is that you have more usable options. Take guns for examples yes there are less of them but you can equip every single gun at once while in System Shock 2 you could only have a few at a time.
Bioshock 1 and SS2's combat aren't the same, Bioshock 1's is actually playable. Jokes aside I just hate the inventory system entirely. Prey 2017 did a good fusion of those two systems. Some say it was "dumbed down", I disagree. I don't think SS2 had much that made the gameplay loop itself "smarter". Streamlining it a bit did massive favors for a reason. No I don't want to need a different skill at a different level for nearly every single weapon in the game, have to repair them, and move things around my inventory, or be able to manage tons of useless items, all without any controller support. That's not in-depth, that's just cumbersome. Fallout did skill-weapons better in that you'd just suck with them.
32:20 right on the mark seeing as the devs were forced by higher ups to reward the player equally for saving the little sisters
There is a system shock easter egg in Bioshock infinite, one of the demensions Elizabeth opens shows the space station from system shock I believe
it did really feel like Bioshock was, and i don't mean to be rude here, dumbed down System Shock 2, absolutely not story wise, but gameplay wise, it feels like Bioshock took some mechanics from ss2 but what they really took from ss2 was the story telling, and its still pretty damn great in the Bioshock games
You mean improved? Most of SS2 is just tedious and clunky for the sake of being tedious and clunky.
It isn’t dumbed down, just simpler. Plus BS still has more rpg elements than SS1
Imsim Curse
BioShock definitely streamlined the formula and was more focused on being approachable. The end result was an incredible game that blended a great narrative with fun gameplay. It may not be a true immersive sim, however you define that, but it had its own magic.
@@bizmonkey007 Except the hack puzzles.
bought bioshock remastered & bioshock 2 remastered and they're both great ports on switch. looking forward on system shock 2 on switch.
I played System Shock 2 when it came out. I was a kid- it was terrifying. In first person shooters, I would clear the level of enemies, and wander around looking at things, immersing myself in the worlds that the designers had made.
System Shock 2’s emphasis on exploration and wandering and rummaging was wonderful. When Bioshock came out, I played it over and over and over again.
They both gave me that wander, rummage, contemplate gameplay loop.
Excellent games that I’m glad I was able to experience.
Thanks for making this video! Great essay.
May the algorithm bless you soon, keep up the good work
After watching (and really enjoying) the whole video I was shocked to see the low number of views and subscribers you have, I hope the algorithm will be kinder to you in the future!
I beat system shock 2 recently and i have got to say the main reason i love system shock 2 more then bio-shock is the pure immersion of it, i have never got sucked in to a game world more. The feeling of exploring the von-braun as you here it creaking and falling apart around you is so tense. The combat is amazing, along with the immersive and tense audio that can truly make you feel like your in the game world its truly a work of art and i loved it.
It's crazy that I was massively disappointed by Bioshock but rly liked Bioshock 2. It improves everything I think needed improving in the original. I thought I was insane, such a high rated game that is so dissonant and cacophonous in every regard of its design. Every aspect of it is in conflict with each other, whereas System Shock 2 is harmonious in mostly every regard. Bioshock had no glue to tie its parts. Which sucks because some of those parts are rly good.
I feel like Prey is more of a tribute to SS2 than anything else.
melee build for the win
that LIs music in the beginning tho
Mmm. Good production values, clean edits, solid points and message, pleasant voice. Yes, I do believe I'll subscribe to see what comes of this. Subscriber 118.
How does this not have a million views?
Amazing analysis. I really love the System Shock games. I first played Ss2 and now I'm playing 1. I Can't tell wich one I like the most. I agree they might be a bit frustrating at the beginning but wow... They become sooo fun to play once you asimilate the mechanics and controls. Also System 1 is insanely detailed for 1994. I can't wait for the remake.
Im also playing Bioshock and I like it as well. I can understand why is it considered such a great game. But tbh I personally like System S even more.
There are two reasons System Shock and System Shock 2 failed to sell in big numbers. The first is both games were kept exclusive to the PC. Had System Shock's developers attempted to release their games on consoles they would have done very well. The second issue was the complexity of the games (especially the second one). The number of keys required to play was so ludicrous. It was so bad the running joke was- playing System Shock 2 was like learning how to use a new OS.
7:28 dude where is that music in the background from? Is that from SS2?
Minerva's Den >>> everything else
awesome job!
B4Brandoss made a video about 2 month after this one came out, connecting the sys and bio games in a legitimate way. Though extremely low key, they are connected in lore.
Overall interesting video tho I have some thoughts
(This comes from someone who has beaten all the System Shock and Bioshock games)
I apologize in advance if this response is scattered as I added to it as I watched.
Gotta say I disagree with almost everything you said about Bioshock but still always interesting to see an opinion even one I disagree with
I didn’t go into this expecting to feel the need to defend Bioshock but given what you have said I have a lot to say.
No one hates Bioshock 2, most love it especially nowadays
The idea that anyone hates it is outdated and misinformed
Infinite is the more controversial and divisive one
Also I feel a lot of people who have heard of Bioshock have heard of System Shock even if many haven’t played it.
As for the similarities between SS2 and Bioshock, I think there are similarities and differences.
Storywise there are some similar beats but I don’t feel they are the same.
I agree that it’s best to like both and not act like one is better.
And unlike some I enjoyed the last part of Bioshock just as much as the earlier parts and don’t think that the blend of content is bad or is different from previous areas even if not everyone did.
I disagree with the idea that Bioshock has 3 split types of gameplay as aside from certain story moments they are all blended together and I don’t think the game gets worse as the game goes on.
And it does feel like an underwater city.
I do disagree with the idea that it goes downhill at all.
For SS2 I found the later part of that game hard at times
Bioshock is more forgiving and SS2 is more harsh with some of the stats systems, some prefer one or other.
Aside from that, it’s always nice to see another video on SS2 even if I disagree with almost everything that was said on Bioshock.
In the end both are great but if I had to choose then I personally prefer Bioshock to SS2 (yeah weird coming from someone with the username shodanpedia) but both are still great.
But as much as I like the Von Braun, I disagree with the idea that Bioshock’s world is worse.
I feel like this video is coming from the perspective of someone someone who prefers SS2 over Bioshock, which I get but as a fan of both games I feel like it misrepresents Bioshock.
Interesting choice of including a guide in there
I’m one of the people who have played both games and still prefers Bioshock overall but both games are great
Also Bioshock’s Rapture does feel like a real place, it’s layout makes sense and it’s the random at all, like I’m not sure how you can to that conclusion cause imo it’s wrong or at least misinformed/misunderstood.
Like how does SS2’s world feel more real or less random? Cause to me they both feel real and equally as interesting.
I would say what you said is straight up false but I understand opinions and all.
As for innovation when the gameplay is good I don’t mind having something similar
And yes I did start with the Bioshock games
As for upgrades I think both games do it fine, and Bioshock has more noticable poppers and upgrades at times but SS2 also has you increase in power but in a slightly different way
BTW you said you’d say why Bioshock was better in some ways but never did it
Also don’t forget about SS1, Bioshock 2, and Infinite
As gonna be real with you here, I like SS1 more than SS2.
More specifically, this is about SShock 2, not SShock 1. Too bad.
As someone who likes both games but loves Bioshock, I disagree with almost everything you said on Bioshock and feel you misrepresent/misunderstand it (at least the parts you criticized).
I’m glad you were civil about it, even if I disagree I m glad you weren’t openly angry.
Nobody hates Bioshock 2, most people love it
Infinite on the other hand has more varying opinions
Sure maybe things were different 10 years ago but nowadays that’s how most feel.
In terms of similarities and differences, they have both though aside from some similar beats they have different stories.
Bioshock’s world felt like a real place, I have no idea how could think it doesn’t cause it’s layout feels real and in no way is random and I have no idea how you came to that conclusion cause I don’t think it makes any sense.
Cause it feels like you ignored or didn’t understand Rapture’s layouts. So I feel you misrepresent it and even though this is all subjective, I feel like you got it wrong.
Also you seem to be biased towards system Shock which is fine but you said you would talk about how bioshock is better but never did, just feels like false advertisement.
Upgrade wise I think both are fine and Bioshock has noticable upgrades just not the same way as SS2 and gameplay wise I though Bioshock was more fun cause it was less stressful.
SS2 is harder later on and Bioshock I loved it from start to finish, the idea that it gets worse overtime or that SS2 always gets better is just imo wrong.
But the idea that Bioshock 2 always gets worse or that SS2 only gets better is not I very much disagree with.
And art style wise I prefer Bioshock.
I also would have wished you would have brought up SS1, Bioshock 2, and Infinite as they have their own similarities and differences.
As for SS1, I had more fun with it and enjoyed it more due to it being less stressful and just having a lot to it that worked.
I'd have loved to get more into SS1, Bioshock 2 and Infinite but that would end up being hours long. I know a lot of people want to move onto the Infinite drama (and personally I do agree that its got a lot more problems as a Bioshock game than 2 does) but despite what everyone says there's still a ton of Bioshock 2 hate out there, its just quiet now and generally held by older gamers
Good video but I have a few issues. I like them both but I have some issues with SS2(You focused more on Bioshock so I am going to focus more on System Shock)
I don't think the character building in System Shock 2 was handled the best (there was no character building in System Shock 1 BTW so don't say that my suggested changes to character building are "not System Shock"). You need to speck into research to beat the game which I think is unacceptable in a game like this that prides itself on being able to build your character however you want.
Repair and maintain. Repair allows you to fix already broken items and maintain stops items from breaking in the first place. Maintain is way more useful there is repair to the point of repair being worthless Why couldn't have these been 1 skill ? Also the fear that you could mess up your build is very much present. The game is so stingy with points that making a mistake early on can make the game significantly less fun. The game is so stingy with points that you can't just mix and match to experiment if you want to play in an even remotely optimal manner. Implants don't help you meet minimum skill requirements which limits you even more.
Next I think the inventory space being so limited discouraged experimentation. If you can only hold a few weapons you are less likely to switch weapons and just stick to what you know works Kind of stagnating the gameplay. I think how they could have fixed this is having dedicated inventory space for weapons (before you complain that this makes the game to easy and is "not System Shock" the first System shock actually had dedicated inventory space for weapons.)
OSA characters were just bad and had no value outside of novelty. The abilities are to expensive and not that good. I think if they were more usable in addition to a regular build as opposed to being an alternative they would be better.
Exotic weapons, Exotic weapons stink of "overbalance" .Overbalance is when a developer is scared something will make a game to easy so they restrict it heavily but then it becomes worthless. The premise of Exotic weapons is that you take a short term hit for long term benefit. You can't spec into Exotic weapons until later. The only really good one is the crystal shard. The other ones don't do much better if any better at all then regular weapons. Their ammo count is just as stingy if not more so and they require high maintain and research to use optimally. My issue is less that they required a dedicated build and more that they weren't worth a dedicated build.
I didn't like exploring the Von Braun. I felt like it was to samey and to dark with not enough color which made everything blend together. Before you say that SYSTEM SHOCK IS A HORROR GAME IT HAS TO BE DARK !!!!!! Go look at the first system Shock. It is super colorful. Rapture just has way more distinct landmarks.
I will agree that Bioshock went to far in streamlining, but that doesn't mean System shock 2 was perfect and some of it's changes were not for the better. Yes it has less options but the reason people don't mind is that you have more usable options. Take guns for examples yes there are less of them but you can equip every single gun at once while in System Shock 2 you could only have a few at a time.
Bioshock 1 and SS2's combat aren't the same, Bioshock 1's is actually playable. Jokes aside I just hate the inventory system entirely. Prey 2017 did a good fusion of those two systems.
Some say it was "dumbed down", I disagree. I don't think SS2 had much that made the gameplay loop itself "smarter". Streamlining it a bit did massive favors for a reason. No I don't want to need a different skill at a different level for nearly every single weapon in the game, have to repair them, and move things around my inventory, or be able to manage tons of useless items, all without any controller support. That's not in-depth, that's just cumbersome.
Fallout did skill-weapons better in that you'd just suck with them.
Bioshock > System shock, Not sorry.
System shock remake is out now !!! Yay
Its fantastic too. I was honestly a little worried but there was no need to be, its super good