Hydraulics - Part 5 - Rudder Parts and Relief Valves
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- Опубліковано 14 жов 2024
- NTP, JIC, ORB, ORFS, British, etc. There are really only three kinds of hydraulic fittings: Too Big, too small and the wrong type.
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When I was involved with installing different piping systems, i had each piping system painted different colors. This helps in trouble shooting and, no matter where you are in your boat, you known what’s in that line. This is especially handy with folks that are on your boat and may not know what’s in the pipe they are looking at. Just an idea 👍
Time to buy a large P-touch label machine, various color tapes and start labeling everything.
Good idea, and if you want to save on paint, you could just paint the valves individual colors and paint a ring when the piping goes through bulkheads.
It's very common for factories to have all the pipes color-coded, and I'm pretty sure ships do it also.
When you get around to adding the microcontroller for the hydraulics, it would be a good idea to have it open the dump valve before starting pumps if the pressure is deadheaded. You also may want to consider adding some flow control valves and small spring accumulators to the rudder system to provide a bit of damping, especially when those solenoid driven valves actuate.
This is sooooo easily done with a simple time delay relay, no need for a micro for such an extremely simple task.
@@FrozenHaxor - While timer relay would solve the simple case of initial startup, it doesn't adequately address sequencing of starting multiple pumps, especially when there is a heavy load in motion needing constant pressure and high flow -- you really wouldn't want the dump valve opening while lifting a heavy, fragile load on the crane and need more pumping capacity brought online during the operation.
So, while in an ideal case each pump would have it's own unloader valve with adjustable back-pressure that would be interlocked directly to the pump with it's own timer relay, that's a lot of additional valves and fittings compared with adding a little intelligence to the operation of a common dump valve.
One thing I would like to see in the system is a flow meter that can be looped in to help read demand and keep the appropriate pumping capacity online to maintain pressure and flow without falling off or short-cycling pumps.
I just hope you can someday understand how many people you have motivated over the years while building this boat. I’m so happy to see you getting this close now.
One thing to keep in mind is that while hydraulic fluid is not compressible, hoses expand. So when you are talking about where in a system to put the rudder locking SOV, the length of hose that is downstream will dictate the amount of movement allowed in the rudder when external forces cause the pressure in the blocked lines to rise.
I suppose it is also warranted to consider how high the forces on the rudder may be (in extreme conditions, obviously the system doesn't build pressure in excess of rating for normal operation) and what that means for line pressure... like is a PRV needed downstream... neat stuff. EDIT: Ahh I think that is what you are protecting for with the PRV, not pump overpressure events?
My designs were for industry (and typically dirtier systems than a closed hydraulic system), so a lot of added expense for belts and suspender! We never used a single SOV in line where shutoff was critical, typically a double block and bleed setup... also never a check valve alone, usually a check and a manual isolation for when that check leaks back through. All probably overkill for this system... would be cool to have pressure transducers in various locations so that you could have feedback on how much force is being applied to the rudder.
'It's all about how hard it is to fix out on the ocean'. Or the trail for us off--roaders. Another good video Doug!
Why go off road?- Taxes have paid literally billions of dollars to make roads available to everyone.. You just GOTTA be special and say "f*ck the man" and won't drive on them, huh?- Better than the rest of us, roads ain't good enough for ya /s
(Used to do a bit of off roading, couldn't resist lol)
Very true.. Form,function, and just as important as those two Repairability.
The amount of work that you have done is phenomenal, and everyone that's helped also. Simply awesome
DUMP on START will reduce hardship on pumps, then close Dump valve when pump is working.
I thought that was standard practice not to start a pump underload
Love the careful thinking based on the premise that something bad and unforeseen will happen!
Great content, reminds me of my days learning, lead,main and vital
I agree with Sonny, have you thought about colouring the pipes (red high pressure) (black low pressure) (blue return flow) and adding labels for which system it serves on the pipe and labels on valves etc as well as arrows to show the flow direction. By doing this someone who is not familiar with the system can troubleshoot and figure it out. Every manual valve can have a aluminium disc to label function of said valve as backdrop on valve handle. It wil also make it easier to draw the schematic diagram on a poster for reference as to how the system works as colours easily differentiate whereas all lines in black dont.
You and Sonny should build a boat. I bet when you're done you'll know what your looking at and can easily identify it on other boats. Then you see color coding for what it is. Training Wheels.
@@SVSeeker I get it, you know this boat like the back of your hand. You have been designing and redesigning it in your mind and planning it for a long time. I was thinking more about it if someone else had to figure it out in an emergency situation when you are dealing with something else. Keep at it!
How do you work on this boat everyday must be soo draining. Love it
If you love what you do, it isn't work.
@@mikeznel6048 I retired last year after 25 plus years as a Welder. I’m 65 now. I retired so I could
take care of my 93 year old father.
I couldn’t wait to go to work… loved working as a welder. I would change jobs every 7 or 8 years so I could become proficient in different types of welding.
The young guys would ask me in the morning why I was happy. My response was I love what I’m doing , I like to eat… I’ve been broke a couple of times 😎 and going to work with a positive attitude makes all the difference in the world.
Again, I learned something about hydraulics. Great and thanks!
I think it would be a good idea to have a pressure relief valve with the dump valve . Just in case there is an failure in the safety circuitry . Maybe even two with some type of pressure switch on the exit side to trigger a warning light that there is some kind of pressure issue.
yeah he is not doing that as he argues, well if the pressure on the pump side is high, itll go through the check valve out then out of the relief on the system side. Makes sense, but I would disagree as I would be concerned about the check valve getting blocked.
All I can is wow as
Always great show
Denny from Minnesota
Maybe for the rudder assembly make all the hoses the same length you can have 2 spare ones made at the same time 😉 and put them in clips next to the assembly
My first stick welder is coming tomorrow. I'm 13. I've welded with my uncle before but u can't wait to learn properly
Well done, just watched you video on producing hydrogen brilliant beautifully explained.
Really glad Doug has shown you the use of Personal protection. Oh no he didn’t!
Doug is an inspiration to us all somehow.
@@jamarie1972 it was for a science competition so I figured I'd look safe😂
I am a retired professor of chemistries y, and dearly love tinkering with things mechanical and maintaining all kinds of things around my house. I must admit that I can almost follow your systems within the boat, but I worry very much that should you ever be injuredthe chances of anyone being able to easily step up andFix a major problem is very unlikely. I know you have all the videos to view and that at least is a potential fallback position but if there is a time sensitive fix needed looks like it could be a problem. I wish you the best but it makes me nervous.
It would be good to review OSHA's Control of Hazardous Energy, but any reference to safety will result in disparaging remarks.
Woosh that’s your explanation of hydraulics going over my head!
I made a couch so I can sit here watching you work, does that count? 😁
I'd love to see the build photos of that couch. : )
Wait.... isn’t this a sailing vessel? LOL! No critique, Doug. Just amazed by all of this!
Will the auto pilot be connected to this hydraulic system or will it be independent? An independent auto pilot ram driving the quadrant is a really good safety backup. If you lose manual steering you have the auto pilot. Love your videos.
Question: How does the pressure relief interact with forces on the rudder? If you have it locked can you get enough force on the rudder to require the pressure relief, or no because the other cylinder would put suction on the line (and pressure relief doesn't work with under-pressure I'm guessing)?
That is a good question. Might needs a normal open valve on each side, switched together?
What u need is a load sensing line to turn pumps to idle when system pressure is gained
Is the accumulator pressurised? As in, does it store the pressurised fluid until it’s needed?
Grest stuff!
If I understand correctly, the hydraulic system behind the actuator is closed if the actuator isn't open. This means if the normally closed valve is closed the ruder is locked. If the valve is opened, the idea is that the ruder can move freely. I don't think this is true since the exact amount out of the cylinder needs to match the amount of oil in to the cylinders exactly or else the system is still locked. If the two pistons were in line this would be true (theoretically). But since rotation is involved, I suspect that the displased oil doesen't match the needed oil at every ruder position. What are your thaugts people? Am I missing something?
Why is the valve for the rudder different to the one you are showing in the schematics on your phone? They have different middle positions. I don’t think the physical one you are showing would work, because you couldn’t lock the rudder in position…
This is a 5/3/2 closed center spring return spool. Pump will be dead headed most of the time. Should be open center (p to t).
@@MarkSmith-zt2zl you are probably right, I didn’t even think about the pump, but I think A and B should be blocked, otherwise the cylinders are free to move in the middle position…
Maybe, P doesn’t go to T intentionally because there are dump valves in the system…
@@KasparJohannes Dump valves/bypasses will cook your fluid quickly. Poor way to manage flow. You can get an A B closed at center/open P spool. This A or B valve isn't really the best way to go for steering. Its digital... all the way open or all the way closed. Proportional orbital valve is the way to go, like on a farm tractor or piece of heavy equipment (articulated loader). You could drive it with a DC stepper motor and encoder on the helm if you have a long run from helm to pump. Screaming fluid over a pressure relief is a sure route to failure.
put check valve before the accumulator. Preventing accumulator from draining back
I think you may need a different valve for the auto pilot if you want to use it with that single normally open bypass valve. The one you have ties A to B and to tank when in neutral which will let the rudder move free just like your bypass valve when off since the fluid can flow from the A circuit to the B circuit. If you get the same valve with the neutral position that caps off A and B (vs vent to each other and tank) then you will get a free rudder whenever the bypass valve is not energized (open), locked rudder when the pilot valve is deenergized and the bypassed is energized (closed), and left / right movement when you power up the pilot valve with the bypass valve is energized (closed).
Great explanation Doug. One question, how do you prioritize the four pumps or do they all turn on /off together?
I must be missing something. I don't understand why the hydraulic rudder controls won't back-drive the worm gear on the steering wheel causing destruction.
EDIT : They are bevel gears, not a worm drive. It looks like it will work fine.
Yes, but why do you think that is destructive?
@@SVSeeker My mistake. In "The Most Awesome Ships Wheel - Part 2" you mentioned the auger gearbox attached to the ship's wheel is actually two bevel gears, not a worm drive. You even demonstrated back driving it briefly in that video. It looks like it's going to work fine.
@@deefdeefdeef @SV Seeker still, the wheel will turn when the autopilot is working . My spontainous goto sollution is to go for a Orbitrol steering fully hydraulic, with a secondary solenoid valve block mounted on the Orbitrol. that would work even without pumps running.
When the rudder spool valve is in its neutral position, "A" and "B" are tied to the tank for draining. What is filling the cylinder when its moving? One side of the piston is exhausting fluid to the tank, the other side is drawing in from what? Is it sucking air from the tank? Maybe put a NC valve on the tank line powered from the spool valve. When the spool valves are in neutral, the tank valves is closed. This lets fluid circulate from "A" to "B" without inducing air into the system. Then when you energize the spool valve the tank valve will open allowing fluid to drain to the tank.
Only having one pressure relief valve and a dump valve on the system would only have two levels of protection on the system. I thought that you were shooting for 3 on Seeker, or is a human watching the pressure on an indicator with maybe an overpressure audible alarm as the last level? I will say that hydraulic systems that are kept clean (fresh fluid as needed and assembled without contamination) are pretty reliable in industrial settings with most of them running a similar setup to what your overpressure relief plan is. The power sources for them are considered the weak link instead.
There are no hard rules. Redundancy is great, but it depends on the system's need for protection, cost, the potential of failure due to the crap you added on to supposedly protect the system, etc.
Are you doing any system flushing and hydros of the pipe?
The accumulator needs to be after the dump valve with a check valve before it, if u put before relfe valve u cancel the acumilator reserse force
Why not use an accumulator unloading valve, instead of controlling an electrical dump valve. Works the same way without electronics. Check valve between pumps and accumulator, it has a pilot line from after check valve opening up spool to dump. Very efficient for pumps.
Might be a stupid question but why don’t you use the autopilot to keep the rudder straight instead of locking it with the valve ? Watching from Ireland !
You remove the redundancy.
you push the little valve down, and the music goes round and round; and it comes out here...unless the relief valve is open
it sounds to me like what you really want is a PLC to manage the hydraulics. They are more reliable than an Arduino or raspberry pi. If you do design a system with those consumer products just anticipate that you will have to periodically reset them.
Hello, I just found your channel. I am extremely impressed with your project and wanted to let you know that I am now a subscriber. I would love to be able to come volunteer however as you said before, I am not a couch or chair type of person. I have a background in process quality and most of my friends work for major corporations or the Government in checking the Corporations. So, yes, I can say I work with rocket scientist everyday.
Because I am so late in the game, I am not sure what you need assistance with or if you have most of everything covered. Based on your comment section, you have a lot of really smart people double checking your work. I am in Northern Alabama, so a bit of a drive to Tulsa, but so far away that if you needed some help, it's definitely drivable.
Good luck!!
17:49 Jeez that's a lot of Tig passes!
Hope all this is documented as memory has its limits plus you may not be available when a problem arises and someone else needs to figure out the plumbing. Same with wiring etc
You just watched a video. You need a piece of paper too?
Absolutely true. However you may not have an internet connection to view UA-cam and it may be quicker in an emergency to have a hard copy even if you have the videos downloaded. But hey it's your choice and you'll do what you are happy with.
@@simonmusgrovewethey Let's skip that videos do not start life on UA-cam, and go straight to: What exactly is this Emergency that you imagine? : )
@@SVSeeker Please, this is not a big issue. If you are happy to rely solely on a video, wherever it is stored, then that's fine. For me when something goes wrong, I just want to sort out the problem as quickly and efficiently as possible. Looking at a recording on a phone or tablet is not always the easiest. Sometimes, I prefer the to have a hard copy to refer too without screensavers kicking in, batteries running out etc. I'm not saying a video is a bad idea, just the opposite, I consider it a very useful tool. But, when you are pushed for time/emergency it's not always the best medium. That is my personal view. You are the skipper of your vessel, at least when it gets splashed, and therefore it is your decision. If you are content then that's OK. We all work slightly differently and should accept that there are different methods to resolving a problem. So if I or anyone else makes a constructive comment, please don't get annoyed, simply decide to either accept, or in this case, reject it. :-)
put a nomrally open valve in the accumulat, that tie to the same ciruct as the dump valve, when dump comes on, the Accumulator is isolated.
I really hope the return line and tank has a pressure relief valve. Worst hydraulic accident I've ever seen was a tank that was pressurized and blew the tank damn-near in half.
Gentleman working on the system, trying to figure out _why_ it was being pressurized, suffered a pressure injection right into his eye. Lost the eye and had a nasty infection that made him, unfortunately, rather hideous looking for the rest of his life.
Another fellar broke his arm (radius and ulna) when a line flew off with a fitting still attached and whipped his arm.. In my opinion, dude was damn lucky the hose ONLY broke the arm, rather than breaking and ripping it clean off.
I know most tanks aren't supposed to be pressurized, but that's why it was being serviced. For whatever reason, the tank *was* being pressurized, and those tanks aren't designed to take much pressure.
I'll never forget the boomy sound it made, and the brief hissing afterward.
Classic Sprint...no reception anywhere!
I forgot your rudder was manually controlled. The hydraulics are for the autopilot. I was wondering why you wanted a pump running all the time but you don’t haha
The second place u put the sacumlatoe after a check valve the accumulator can't act on the system cos check valve stops acc feeding back in
What happens in case of electrical failures, like a faulty actuator or total electric powerloss? I get it will default to manual steering, but how would you know? Especially on a sailing ship it can be only seconds from disaster.
What’s the cost of the Hydac? Looks very similar to a diesels SCV, I wonder if its worth considering as a cheaper alternative? Should be able to handle the pressure. And wouldn’t be hard to program
“accumulators” Great they’ll give you time whilst you’re doing maintenance
It’s lovely there is so much care for what others do, if help is needled just ask whether neighbour, friends or as Doug has done The World 🌎!
My favourite joke......What’s the difference between a Giraffe 🦒 and Sv Seeker?
One’s got high B*ll*cks and one’s got hydraulics.
It’s ok I’ll get my coat 🧥
Thats how humanity should be. People helping people.
👍 Got it... "Plop, plop, fizz, fizz, oh what a relief it is! ®" 🙂
The hydac is programmable that means a battery or powered what happens if it loses power. Edit just watched more that's powered but what happens if it loses power does it need reprogramming does it have a battery that save settings what happens if it fails.
I’m confused. It’s a sailboat, but your engine will have to be running just to steer?
Pretty sure they have a manual method of steering too, just chains and a gearbox
Not only do they have a manual steering option, they also have two electric pumps that will run of the batteries. Then they have the Vmac as backup if everything else fails and the Cummins engine when they're using it to power the propeller.
A boat of that complexity requires power 24-7
Parabéns
started to worry about the august launch plan, seems tons of work ahead
So what happens if you lose electric to the hydronic valve. I work on a light ship that had a electric joy stick steering over hydronic rudder system. We lost power and had no way to steer the ship, put a manual valve in the steering room and a intercom to the bridge.
If power is lost, the ship can be steered by hand.
Where do I share them
Email them to me at svseeker@ymail.com
dont you want the rudder lock to be a ball valve to not require power to hold the rudder in place?
You want it to default to manual steering as a failsafe in case of power failure.
@@user2C47 wouldn't the ideal by a no power required to lock the rudder out for being at anchor?
@@jeepxj For that you can just lock the helm. What you _really_ don't want is to lose control of the rudder while at sea.
👍
I had completely miss-understood, I thought the boat had assisted steering.
Why do i always forget that hydraulics are a closed system?
Why not just connect a big DC motor to the helm? That would eliminate the problem of a hydraulic system, and allows for the use of PWM.
When the hell does this ship go to sea?
Aug 12th Move to Port. / Aug 21st VIP Launch Party Port of Catoosa / Sept 11 Pirate Festival Three Forks Harbor Muskogee. --- When the Hell are you going to see you?
Too complicated. KISS.
That's what I tell SpaceX all the time. : )
Doug for president
Complicated
Nope. sorry. I'm sure that was all really good hydraulics info, but it all just blurred together...
Hay gdammit plz quit dudu da cy with aaall tha finalmentey sho precate it caye caulker
Lost me