Polished Knife Edge Vs Rough Edge Test
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- Опубліковано 9 жов 2024
- Testing the edge retention between a rough or toothy edge and a high polished edge. Knives used were made by me, owner and craftsman at WC Knives, both made from 1/8" O1 tools steel with a full flat grind and a secondary bevel. Material used was cardboard. Appreciate your support!
William I must say that video was almost as exciting as watching grass grow BUT it was one of the most informative I've seen on ruff verses polished edge retention. Thanks for taking the time to shoot this video.
LOL, thanks...I think! Thought about editing out the boring parts but then some would think I fudged the results so I left the boring parts in there. You know how some react to video test. Appreciate your view and comment as always.
While attending the ABS school in AR back in 2002. The master instructors held a cutting contest with and for us the students. All of them use 220 Norton stones for the test knife. Look up American Bladesmith Scociety annual cutting contest. They stated that the contest had never been won by a blade that had a mirror finish and all winners were done with 220 grit because the "saw" edge the rougher grit produced lasted longer.
+Carl D Ward Jr Good info. Thanks!
I appreciate this honest test. You simply stated your opinion and experience of what you thought to be sharper and allowed the test to prove your point. Thanks for passing on some of your wisdom.
+BushcraftOnTracks Appreciate your view and comment.
Great demonstration. I have no doubts that your knives making skills are outstanding. 👍
Thanks Carlos but this was about the different styles of sharpening a edge and durability than knife quality.
I thought that the quality of a knife is measured by the type of steel, the sharpness of the blade and its retention... Please, correct if I'm wrong...😏
Types of edges is also a factor. As demonstrated a toothy or rough edge starts rough but last longer. A high polished edged acquired from stropping on a leather strop, like the old strait razors, will start fast but not last as long. Now the length of time they will last does depend on the quality of the knife maker and type of steel. But this was a demonstration using the same steel and also the same knife with different types of edges to demonstrate the edge difference.
👍
it's good to see someone doing their own research and development and sharing it with us thanks
+Amra survival Very welcome. Appreciate your support.
Good, equal test I thought. Same knife, same cutting material, and the same guy sharpened them both. Nice video sir.
Appreciate your view and thoughts.
Thanks for doing what you do. Don't see real tests from many other knife makers. Something I've read a little about but noticed in my own experiences is that blade steel and edge geometry play a huge role in this too. I prefer a toothy edge on s30v and o1, but go full polish on my high carbon blades. Lots of variables. Guess what you use it for matters too. Thanks again, love watching your stuff.
+apocosy Blade geometry play a huge role in knives ability to cut no doubt. Have several videos on than that. Appreciate your view and input.
Thanks so much !!! Exactly what I've been pondering about for quite some time . Your great video answered my concerns perfectly ! I subscribed and an going to enjoy watching all of your other videos . I've been trying to get my knife sharp enough to " tree top " hair ( cut hair above the skin ) and had it doing a little bit , but after polishing more , lost what I had . I will feel great satisfaction when I can peel a hair 🙂
Love the video. Like usual, no BS. I have found that I spent way to much time trying to get a polished edge. They did not stay sharp as long.
+james green Appreciate your view and input.
Great no BS test, great stuff ! Those cardboard offcuts would work great as mulch in the garden too.
I do use some for the garden but I have so much of it that I can't use it all there. Appreciate your view and comment.
i actually noticed this some years back while i was skinning a beaver. good test
+Survive Without Thanks!
William,
I like your practical based knowledge and thinking. I really appreciated your other video on grinds. I do more woodcarving with a Scandi grind, but certainly appreciate the saber, flat, and once in a while a hollow grind-I only have one small knife with that grind and I don't often carry it since I picked up a Benchmade Mini-Griptilian for EDC a few years ago. I also either carry an old 1940's Schrade Walden carpenter or a Leatherman Wave.
When I first got into woodcarving in 1973 the common finest stone was a Hard Black Arkansas oil stone. 4-6/8 Micron -(about 4,000 grit) and that was plenty sharp to give a polished finish to any wood. Worked fine on the highway carbon steels of the day. For every day use an 800-1,200 grit is quite adequate. I've noticed in the last few years as technology has become available to those with money and often less sense to get the highest grade edge at any cost. I have at times fallen into the trend, hey we like to tinker and experiment! to prve to ourselves After prompting by others I tried the 6,000 grit King synthetic Japanese water stone. Fine edge for steels that can be sharpened with it. However, I have rarely noticed a significant improvement over the Hard Black Arkansas stone that I bought for $25 in 1973! Some people go for the 8,000-12,000 grit Natural Japanese Water stones as necessary for a sharp edge. Along with using Hollow grinds on all their edges! LOL
Around 13 years ago I bought a Burke Sharpening System so I could rapidly sharpen and hone my gouges and knives. I have found it useful particualry for speed and convenience like when I I pick up a bunch of old tools at a gararge sale. More commonly I use my 800-1,200 diamond or ceramic stones and if I feel it's necessary for the task a quick strop on leather faced hardwood with white of gold stropping paste.
I am interested in your Junior Woodsman/Woodsman knives. I can see the practicality of the geometry and profile Unfortunately I have to create some money to afford the knife! About 55 years ago a great aunt gave me a 5+" leather stacked handled belt knife and some point it got a big (3/4" long x 3/8" deep) chip out of the thin flat ground blade. A few years later I tried fixing the blade by grinding out the chip and created an edge that was quite effective. Scroll ahead and 25 later I broke the tip off to create a short bladed knife that I don't use. Go figure.
This video and playlist may interest you. The JR woodsman is a great companion knife. Appreciate your view and thoughts. ua-cam.com/video/1XurWu0Ra9c/v-deo.html
since i have started stropping my blades to a polished edge i have noticed that i have to bring the edge back more often than when i just used my diamond stone to sharpen. so i do agree with you on this subject. thanks for another good video man.
+pryce wilkins Very welcome. Appreciate your view and input.
This is true, a toothy edge cuts better. Because it is like a saw blade. But if used on hard objects, the edge will definitely roll and or break. Sure... A polished edge may not cleave or cut as well, but it keeps the edge more sturdy.
Just Some Asian Swordsman disagree. The roll or break is from the hardness of the Rockwell not the type of edge. I am talking about microscopic teeth. I have used this edge in butchering game and also bone as shown in videos on my channel for R&D knives especially my WCSK model with superior results.
After watching videos on your sharpening philosophy I mirror polish my blades then get back for few light passes on 2000 grit sandpaper. The result is best of both worlds. But generally I like toothy edges like you say. 🔪
Excellent video William, thank you.
Thanks!
Looks to me like do you want to break in a edge or do you want to have an edge now 😂
You Sir, are far more patient than myself! the only way I could make that many slices is for the stew pot! Thanks for the video, and the knowledge!
+Lionel Doss LOL, appreciate your view and comment.
+William Collins (WC Knives) Yes sir! I've gained a lot of information since I found your channel. Also I really appreciate your opinions. keep 'em coming!
+Lionel Doss Thank you so much! Appreciate your support and will certainly try.
Thanks William...a very good test. And for sure I see your point on this. I tend to sharpen knives to suit what their intended use is. Outdoor knives I also like a "toothy" edge. I do sharpen and strop to a high polish small skinning knives that will be used for fine work, but they almost never see rough work. LOL I do have to admit I do have a cpl knives I have stropped till they are way "too" sharp. But sometimes I set watching a ball game just practicing with them on the strop.( something to keep my hands busy).
+Jerry Morris We all have done and sometimes still do that. Thanks Bud!
Great video William. I myself and I'm sure a lot of other people would like you to make a video showing how to put a toothy edge or rough edge on a blade.
Thought I replied to this already but don't see the reply. I show how in the video. It is as simple as using a coarse stone and then cleaning the edge wit a piece of leather. I also have several sharpening videos already on my channel. Appreciate your view and comment.
great demos William...thanks for taking the time...woods
+MTwoodsrunner Welcome, appreciate your support.
Throgh past 3 weeks I made some tests. What I learned from you and from my own experiments and experiences, for a workforce knife rough edge may be a better choice. For enjoying delicate jobs like rabbit left aorta surgery (lol) and for those who get excited of really keen blade (me) or for bragging hey loot at my knife sharpness (me again), the shiny one works better.
If you genuinely prefer a coarse, toothy edge, I suggest the Arctic Fox scythe stone made by Baryonx Knife Co. they are very fine for a scythe stone, but will put a usable coarse, toothy edge on a EDC knife, and they cut through steel very fast considering the relatively fine grit, so just a couple passes will put a keen edge on a blade, and they will also work to sharpen a really dull or nicked edge, because they take so much metal off. if you are worried about wearing your blade down with sharpening, maybe avoid them though. If ind they very handy for starting out on a really dull knife, or if I screwed up a bevel and want to start all over again. You can get ovular scythe stones, flat bench stones and min pocket stones in the same material. Quite cheap too. And not imported, made by hand by a small knife maker.
Thanks, I rarely sharpen a knife I keep one honed though.😁 I prefer diamond stones though because they stay flat and do not wear unevenly. But I mostly use a steel hone. My knives RC of 62-63 for stainless need a very hard stone and hone.
Awesome brother great test first one iv seen about this subject god bless take care..untill the next one lol 👍
+California Bushcraft Thanks and you too.
I've sharpened my own knives and many from a few friends and clients I have and when they inquire as to my sharpening theirs, I ask whether they want a good edge that will cut clean longer or an edge that will look prettier longer. Most don't get it. I use everything from an Edge Pro to whetstones, diamond stones, and a Spydie Sharpmaker for touch ups.
Mirror finishes are for the UA-camrs and those that just want to admire their knives, or hype them up selling them on ebay. Slightly toothy well angled grinds will cut more and longer. Known that for years. Another thing; sharpen less and strop more. Unless you're proficient in sharpening, you can do more harm then good. Learn to strop and it'll keep your edges fine longer.
A. Delome not a fan of stropping as explained in the video. Stropping polishes. I prefer a coarser edge.
@@wcknives To each his own William. I don't strop to polish. Just to maintain a possibly rolled edge after use. 3 to 5 light strokes is all it usually takes to bring an edge back. Stropping can be overdone though, yes.
Great video and very informative though. Take care!
Impressive edge retention ! I really like the mirror polish !Im getting tired of Black coated blades !
+PREPFORIT LOL, the mirror polish was referring to a style of edge. Some like to strop a edge with buffing compound impregnated into a leather strop until the edge looks like a mirror. I was demonstrating the difference in edge endurance between that style of edge and a coarser or rough edge with using just a coarse stone.
I wonder how much impact the blade hitting the table top has on the sharpness. It will be even at least, but I would like to set it up so it wasn't coming down on a hard surface on each slice, since that must peen the edge over after a while.
Depends on the quality of the heat treat and type of steel. As you saw with these the table had little to no effect on the blade edge.
I think polished edges are better for push cutting. But a rougher (non polished edge) is better for all round slicing. In real life situations, non polished is my go to
Very good test. I have always preferred a rough edge over polished.
If I made knives for a living there wouldn't be any hair left to shave on my arms LOL.
+John Capps LOL, I don't have much. Thanks!
Not sure why this reminds me of Mr. Owl and the tootsie pop :) But seriously thank you for the comparison
+Wolf Walker LOL, not sure how to take that. Never heard of those two characters. Appreciate your view and comment.
Say Heah, I do notice a slight difference slicing with a polished edge, Infact Case did that on some of their knives, I have a Vintage Pawnee Fix Blade, Granted it's a very thin apex and I mean a slicer, But they did Polish just the edge infact that's what the "P" stands for on their stamps after tge Stainless, But I also have a Vintage Bianchi Hollow Handle Survival Knife It's pretty Nighthawk 2, It might be the Nighthawk 1 but just the Bianchi Star and Bianchi etched larger, The point is its a high polished 440c. Handmade, But not just for looks, It's also a fighting/survival hollow handle knife, That would have less friction stabbing a person. I talked about that with professionals. What say you, William, I consider you a Pro.
Not a tactical guy so not sure on the stabbing question.
Not a tactical guy so don't know.
Not a tactical guy so don't know.
Great video
Hey William, thanks for the video! It seemed to me that where the polished edge was dulled, the rougher edge started out not cutting as good and got sharper after a bunch of passes through the cardboard.
+Al Silvestri Yep, I placed some notes in the video of my theory of why that is. Hope everyone is seeing the notes. Appreciate the view and comment.
I really appreciate and enjoy your vids Brother
I found that out on squirrel hide polished slides off don't dig in BUT the ones sharpen to convert nail test right in ! Cardboard I always use its tough on any blade take care brother
Thanks Tom.
also my uncle Johnny's pocket knife was always toothy edge and it barely shaved but when we skinned squirrel his always skinned longer than my mirror polish edge case that started off sharper than his ... it always chapped my butt that his was better , mine cost more and looked better but he always had the better edge for skinning squirrel ... I miss uncle Johnny he passed some years ago haven't really hunted much squirrel since only deer .
+Tom Goodwin You should watch my "What is Sharp" video. Pretty much the same thing for me. Those old timers knew a few things didn't they?
Now I see the beef with neck knives and seeing how dangerous it looked to point the edge of your knife at your throat to put the knife enough.
I don't think neck knives are dangerous. I have never stabbed myself in the throat and I have used neck knives on a daily basis for many years. I explain in this video. ua-cam.com/video/yww2YOpWJ_E/v-deo.html
Yep. That's usually how that test ends up. I still love to sit and put a polish on one, though...the best therapy there is, IMHO.
+briargoatkilla LOL, it is therapeutic. Thanks buddy!
Hey William I touch up my knives with a fine stone with no leather strop would you consider that a toothy edge?
+tj keisler May have fine teeth but not the longer teeth that a coarser stone will give the edge. Longer teeth will cut longer, like a saw. However like a saw you will need to use the knife like a saw to cut the longer the teeth are. If you notice the rough edge in the video had a difficult time doing push cuts until the microscopic teeth wore down a little then it was able to do push cuts easier.
awesome video William . I noticed some things as I was watching ( IMO ) the polished edge seems to me to start off sharper and around 65 cuts to start tapering off to dull around 100 as where with your toothy edge it seemed to me it started off needing more attention as it looked like mostly push cuts it was cutting but looked as if it took more effort although , the toothy edge seems like it actually gets sharper by the second piece of cardboard and it (IMO) work polished the edge as cardboard is like an abrasive , to me it kinda refined the edge to the point as if its kinda self sharpening so to speak . I like both edges polished and toothy thanks for sharing again great testing and either way great knives ...
+Tom Goodwin Noticed that myself. Appreciate your view and comment.
+Tom Goodwin I have found sharpening my axe with just a file, it is the quickest way and it stays sharp and with use actually polishes the file marks left on the bit and it still cuts very well. Knives, too as William points out. Sharpen to the task at hand, no need to over sharpen every time.
I sharpen my kitchen knives with a file, slices tomatoes perfectly, even over ripe tomatoes.
+downeast primitive skills Yep toothy edge.
Good vid. It would be cool to see knife a done on diamond side and the knife b done on both. Then do reverse where knife a is done on both sides and knife b only on diamond. That test would eliminate more variables. Love your channel and your craft.
Not sure I follow but I did sharpen both knives the exact same sharping method with the diamond stone so they were tested the same in the end. Toward the end of the video I showed the polished edge being sharpened again with the diamond stone and testing it with very different results.
Seems to me like the cardboard may have polished the edge a bit on the rougher blade. It seemed to cut better a bit into the test.
Kris Bassett in a way it does. As the micro teeth is worn down or polished it cuts better but that is why it last longer. Mostly though a toothy edge requires a slicing motion to cut where a polished edge will cut with pressure.
I have come to that conclusion myself. If I need a working edge I just stop at 400 grit diamond with a light strop and it work best for my EDCs.
Interesting. What grit was that diamond stone you used for the toothy edge?
+Jimmy Hor Not sure but this is the stone. www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004D4FH8E?keywords=Falkeniven%20dc3&qid=1448231530&ref_=sr_1_sc_1&sr=8-1-spell
What grit is adequate to get a great edge but still have some toothiness?
techwg don’t know what the grit is but a blue DMT or fine EZ Lap does a great job. I have many videos on sharpening and go into more detail.
Say Heah William, There's a guy on the Tube with his World Sharpest Knife. at first I thought it was the knofe, but then I recognized the knives, one was the Olé Hickory, and the other one was a Buck Special 119, Then I found out it was his Sharpener, What do you think of it, I don't think you could use it on a Convex Grind like on my Bark River's, or my secondary Saber Vex Grind on my Swamp Rat's, and I'm too leary to Vex my Scandi Skookum Bush Tool, It seems to me it would take too much metal of a knife, He said his Buck 119 was 5 years old, but he doesn't show the knife close enough to see how much metal he sharpened off on it and how it's been reshaped from using a sharpener like that, It seems to me it's just some Tungsten that actually is what sharpen's the edge, What's your opinion on that sharpener, Thanx in advance, , ,
+paulie 4x Never used on but the ones I have seen look like a mini belt sander. I sharpen all kinds of blade profiles on my belt sander all the time. Personal thing. If it works for you then that is good enough.
Hey, just been reading about all the devastation in Texas and know that you live by a lake, just hoping you and your family survived ok!
Edge geometry is a huge portion of this that no one seems to want to take into account.
Agreed, I talk about that a lot. Here is one of those videos. ua-cam.com/video/ixH5hP71zeg/v-deo.html
What I was referring to is the fact that the usual technique used to highly polish an edge (stropping of some sort) usually changes the edge geometry on a "micro" level. Sometimes this is quite a significant difference, especially when the stropping is done on the slack of a belt as opposed to very carefully on the platen. The composition and other physical characteristics of the strop itself can also make a significant mechanical difference in how it performs. Personally, I don't strop to polish an edge. I use a completely different mechanism.
Yep a blade that is stropped will become a convex. The degree of the convex will be determined by the type of strop. A slack strop will have more of a convex than a strop on a hard surface. I discuss this as well in some videos.
You can't compare your tests to another persons tests because the "grit" of different card boards vary GREATLY. He may have only got 20 slices because his cardboard is very "rough".
Sure you can. Their over all count may be different but the difference between the two edge types will have the same outcome. One will out perform the other.
Sure you can. Their over all count may be different but the difference between the two edge types will have the same outcome. One will out perform the other.
+William Collins (WC Knives) very true!
What grit would you stop at to get a good rough working edge?
Scott Allen Medium diamond stones work for me or blue DMT not sure what the grit is. Test prove a rougher edge cuts better and last longer than a polished edge. The user has to determine what degree of course or polish works best for their needs. Not looking for a saw but can’t use a mirror either. Something in between.
@@wcknives thanks. I have probably learned more about knives by watching your videos. Let your dad know That I enjoy watching him also. Thanks for all your hard work.
I've watched all your videos and people just wanna keep testing you and your blades well they can go swing let me see them produce a blade close to yours, don't bow down to the morons your blades are right on the mark. let's see what they make???? William your stuff is better than 90% of most and I'm a 44 yr old ex-Royal marine uk, 42 marine so if they wanna match you let them put up there side too. keep up the good stuff mate sod them.
+Simon Smith LOL, thank you so much. Appreciate the support.
Think of cutting tree limbs...the teeth of a saw will cut it better than a razor. A toothy edge on a knife acts like a micro-saw. You however can whittle better with a razor than a saw. In short a toothy edge will do better if using a slicing motion. A razor edge is best for push cuts, such as with whittling or sharpening pencils. A very sharp edge will also be easier to roll over or chip. If you were to sharpen a knife to a 10 degree angle, you might expect a very, very sharp edge that either rolls over or chips with normal use due to being very thin at the edge. If however it has a 20 degree bevel it will be less sharp, but less likely to roll over or chip with normal use. Which edge type you should put on a knife is largely dependent on both the type of steel and the intended use. If slicing fruits, a paring knife is usually used and it is usually a very thin blade, which reduces the drag the blade experiences while slicing through the fruit. Edge geometry is the key to this so a lower height and thinner blade is chosen as the better tool for the job. A very thin low height blade would be lousy in a pocket knife. It would bend or break easily. In general a pocket knife is a jack of all trades, but master of none. At cutting paper, scissors work better, at cutting foods various kitchen cutlery is better. At cutting limbs off of trees, an axe, saw, or chainsaw is better. The advantage the pocket knife has is it is often the only cutting tool you have with you, when the need for a cutting tool arises.
we agree. I talk of this in a couple of my videos as well. Proper blade grind and apex thickness is key to having a good slicer vs a robust chopper.
No William, this one can be small enough to fit on a keychain, you scrape the blade, I think it's some kind of hard steel that's prolly harder than the blade steel the type of metal that those run your blade through sharpeners Yeah Tungsten, I almost forgot what it was, , ,
Yep saw those. It uses carbide blades. No I don't recommend them for quality blades.
Thanx, I thought so, , ,
Doesn't slice very well?!?!? The polished very clearly went thru that cardboard much much easier than toothy!
Keep watching, the polished edge wears quicker and the toothy edge begins to slice better and last longer. Need to watch all the video and not skip any.
I think your plenty smart enough William. I love your video. Your excellent at showing us good old common sense. I appreciate that. I ha to gloat though. I have a male friend that thought he was smarter and your proved to him he was wrong! I told him so! What do women know right😂🤣
You should tell him to give us credit for having intelligence to figure things out on our own.
maggiealena thank you!
I thought it interesting. Common sense but I have heard so much one way or the other and it comes down to who is telling the truth.
So much deception out here these days.
I appreciate your time and loved the video.
maggiealena I’m not smart enough to do camera tricks so what you see is actual results. 😁😁😁 thanks for watching.
I'd have to respectfully disagree. for outdoor purposes and Bushcraft activities I've found a polished edge to be more favorable over a toothy edge.
from my own experiences a polished convex edge performs the best when working with wood. it takes along time for my knives to start losing their edge, and become dull. however having that nicely polished edge makes routine maintenance and touch ups incredibly easy. after a days use just hit the strop a few times and your back to razor sharp.
now I guess if you're cutting cardboard or items that just need hacked up a toothy edge will work for you, but I'll keep my working knives with a polished edge.
+bob3326 Appreciate your view and input.
speaking of arm hair mine look as if I have the mange ... Mark of a maker guess
+Tom Goodwin Mine are very smooth with a hint of stubble. LOL! yep a trait of our profession.
+Tom Goodwin Mine are very smooth with a hint of stubble. LOL! yep a trait of our profession.
:-)
+bobby keller Thanks ;-)
Neither of those knives are sharp
LOL, not sure how to respond to such a idiotic comment.
thats total garbage
Benjamin Drabing appreciate your view.... well I hope you watched the video. Video doesn’t lie.
Great video William. I myself and I'm sure a lot of other people would like you to make a video showing how to put a toothy edge or rough edge on a blade.
I show how it is done in the video. It is as simple as using a coarse stone only and cleaning the edge with a few strips on a piece of leather. There are also other sharpening videos on my channel.