40yr plumber here. Just been hired to find out why the other company that installed a 240A2 last week cannot get the recirculating system to work even after installing the navicirc. Knowing nothing about these systems I started doing research and you were my first stop. After watching the video, I got money that says this is my last stop as well and the answer has been solved :) Great job guys! Love the fast talking. However I can’t wrap my brain around the first method of recirculating, what good is a pump that has no line to recirc with? Guessing that terminology is being used, but in essence it’s not a true circulation but nothing more than a small holding tank always hot to prevent lag. So it’s really a lag prevention, not a Recirculation system :)
Did you not catch this improperly installed? Check valve wrong location not being upstream of tee along with thermal protection. I used this video along with the book to figure out a few things. Our instructor was wrong as well stating to only reverse pump switch and set cycle times correctly. Basic training never explained water hook up with Navi circ so this was an experience
I literally logged in for the first time to thank you (and like vid!). The part about the "External vs Internal" is in NO way described anywhere else. This video confirmed my suspicions of a new install was underwhelming. I had previous 3/4" return plumbed, but they had they internal switch set to Internal circ and computer set same. A few screws and the changing of some settings and much better results at the tap. Thanks again for this and the other 2 videos I watched to Pre/Post purchase.
In case it helps anyone in future, the check valve for external circulation (NaviCirc setup) is not required for A2 model per Navien tech support over the phone. The check valve is built into the A2 model now.
@@eklof6510 I just had a NPE-240A2 installed at my home and I'm curious based on your above comment if you're saying that the "T" fitting is no longer needed with the A2? And if so, is it also not required to change the recirculation setting to "ext"? I'm definitely interested in getting the NaviCirc installed, I just want to make sure I ask for the most accurate thing from the plumber. Thanks for the videos! They've been very helpful in understanding my system.
This was an exact replacement for the old one that lasted about 10 years. ua-cam.com/users/postUgkx7yWIKcrbA9KMHkGSfcgxW2lsjHT6B8Sh The top of my mitigation tube by my roofline was just a 90 elbow which allowed too much debris to fall down into the fan, eventually ruining it. Without this issue, I bet it would have kept running another 10 years. When I replaced this fan, I added an extra elbow joint so the top tube now it does a 180, which should solve that problem. The radon guys around here wanted to charge me a $300 diagnostic fee, then parts/labor (probably close to $600 total). I installed this all by myself in about an hour for the cost of the fan; it would probably be even easier/faster with two people. FYI the manufacturer's warranty greatly differs depending on whether you install it yourself (1 yr warranty) or have a licensed installer do it (10 yrs).
Helpful video, thanks! I have the 240A and noticed that my cold water is now coming out hot for about 45 seconds, presumably it has something to do with the recirc setup. Any idea how to fix it other than to turn off recirculation? Thanks!
The dip switches here are not shown correctly for the newer models. The first thing I did was check and there is no bank of 10 or anything like that so I guess the newer models have a different setup? All I saw on the side was 2 lone dip switches
Why is the check valve not upstream the tee. Before the tee on the main incoming. That’s where it needs to be to serve its purpose. Otherwise it’s pumping into the main as well. Thermal protection must also be added on the system within those circuits
Do those recirc valves fail after 2 years? I have a plumber recommending a direct line rather than using the included Navien valve b/c they say they fail after couple years
Video is very helpful! I have a 240a installed with external recirculation line option. Dip Switch 1 and 2 are ON for intelligent mode. When the recirculation turns on I get the pipe knocking sound , as if air is in the line/pipe(PEX). Do you know what causes that to occur? I have been looking everywhere for information. I also wanted to ask if it's okay to lower the pump run time from the default 20 minutes down to 10 or 5 minutes? Thanks in advance for your help. The unit was installed over 2 years ago, and the knocking noise has increased over the last 6 months.
I have the NPE-240A model and I am planning to add the NaviCirc valve at the fartherst sink to use the cold water line as a return. The only question I have is regarding the checkvalve (time 2:05). Which way is it supposed to be installed? I am somewhat confused on the waterflow and just can't picture it in my head.
Jerry Jablonski This is detailed in the installation manual including all of the setting parameters for your desired operation. Tech support will also be glad to walk you through if you are the installing contractor. 800-519-8794 Thank you for watching! Make sure you follow us on our FB page here: facebook.com/scottgreggoutdoors/ I usually post what's coming up there as well plus other channel insight and content not on UA-cam. Also Instagram at instagram.com/scottgregg1966/
I'm debating on having a Navien npe-240a2 installed is this a good unit for a 2800 sq ft 2 story house with 3 bathrooms? Does one need to run a condensing drain pipe? How often and expensive should they be serviced? Do these require flushing valves? Also looking at the Bosh Greentherm T 9900 SE 199NG. Which is better and going to last longer?
IS the check valve necessary for use with the navicirc device? I had a plumber install the navicirc, he basically did not even want to add the extension off the cold water line to the recirculation line and I am failry certain he did not install a check valve. Will this system function without the valve?
Refer to the NaviCirc instruction manual on Navien's website. It shows the tee branch from the cold water line into the recirculation inlet is needed with the NaviCirc device. As for the check valve, it is required for models prior to the A2 series. The NaviCirc manual says the check valve is required, but I called Navien tech support to confirm; they said the check valve is not required for A2 model and the NaviCirc instructions are from 2019, so they're just outdated for said model. Hope this helps.
The check valve is required for the system to work properly per the instructions. You might want to contact your local Navien Service Specialist to check it out.
Yes sir. However you will obviously only be recirculating one fixture at a time because of the way manibloc systems are piped. The NPE-A model internal pump can do up to 100' of 1/2 total pipe or 400' of 3/4" pipe with a Navicirc installed or an external pump properly sized for the applications can be used with either the NPE-A Model or S model heaters.
@@eklof6510Thank you! I had the Navien NPE-A2 240 installed last week and we are thrilled with it. I am thinking about having the plumber return and put a NaviCirc on the kitchen sink and the master bathroom sink as these are the only two places that I care to not have to wait for hot water when needed. I am also thinking that this will atomically bring hot water at least at the entrance to the Manibloc for the other hot water hookups and possible result in a bit shorter wait time on them as well. Can I put more than one NaviCirc in my home and am I on the right track with using the NaviCirc with the Manibloc?
Trying to figure out if I need an expansion tank installed on my hot water recirculation loop. I have the DIP switches set correctly and the EXT valve to set correctly, loop works good, but wondering if an expansion tank is needed or not. Do you know?
YES you do! Whenever you have a recirculation system or stored hot water, you need and expansion tank sized to the water volume of the system. We are the Rep in your area. Please contact us and we will be glad to help you with this. The Virginia main office number is: 804-266-0079
@@eklof6510 Yea I called Navien two times one week apart. One phone call they said you need a tank. The other call to Navien they said no you do not need one. I noticed in the installation manual they show an expansion tank, however its always on the COLD supply side so very confusing.
I do not understand why the Coldwater is put on the recirculating side? Please someone in for me because I actually did the install and it did not work out well. I replumbed it for both hot water on the left side
There is too much to go back and forth with it in these comments. The installation manual has several different ways to pipe recirc based on the type of installation. There are several different ways to do it depending on what type of recirc system you are using.
Thank you for the info that you provided, this was helpful! I flipped the dip switch 1 to ON for my NPE-210a and it seemed to help me get hot water faster to my upstairs sink/shower. I have a couple generic questions: 1) Now that I finally turned on recirculation switch, do I need a bridge valve at furtherest sink upstairs? I've read several times about installing a bridge valve, but am unsure if it's needed. 1) I have seen in other forums/videos that when the home owners first installed a tankless water heater, everything was working fine, and he got continuous hot water. But then when his kids got older and started using more water, the kids would have to wait for hot water (their room was a little further away I believe). So does that mean that the standalone tankless water heater only works well when there are only a couple people using hot water? So if there are multiple people using water, then an external recirculation pump is needed? Or is it a distance thing?
1) No. You don't have to have a NaviCirc installed unless you want it to get hot water faster. 1) No it is a distance thing. The longer the piping is from the Navien the longer it is going to take to eject the water that has cooled off and is in the piping before the hot water gets there. "Lag Time" This can many times be helped with the NaviCirc installed by your local Navien Service Specialist.
Junior duran Thanks for the sugestion. We'll have to see about doing that one. There are several reasons for needing to add an external pump and different answers for each application. In the mean time, everything you would need is in the manual for the unit and also we have many application drawings covering them on Navien's website here: www.navieninc.com/downloads Thank you for watching! Make sure you follow us on our FB page here: facebook.com/scottgreggoutdoors/ I usually post what's coming up there as well plus other channel insight and content not on UA-cam. Also Instagram at instagram.com/scottgregg1966/
begaqincer It depends on the installation type. The internal pump can handle up to 500' of 3/4" piping run or 100' of 1/2" piping. If you don't need an external pump due to that, then yes the internal one is better. (Because you already have it.) Thank you for watching! Make sure you follow us on our FB page here: facebook.com/scottgreggoutdoors/ I usually post what's coming up there as well plus other channel insight and content not on UA-cam. Also Instagram at instagram.com/scottgregg1966/
This is something to address with the installer of the unit. There are many variables in homes that can effect the "lag time" to get hot water to remote areas, and with it, more than one solution. Your installing contractor should be able to help you figure it out for your home.
This a bit late, given the last comment was from about 9 months ago, but I am working through a recirc project on my NPE-240A and wanted to comment/question: The manual shows a check valve already internal to the unit. In order (in the diagram), water is shown flowing into the recirc inlet, through the internal recirc pump, and then through the check valve. Given this, is another check valve on the copper outside the unit really necessary to install? Again, this is the manual for the NPE-240A, not the A2. Thanks.
jmholsin First, you have to have the 2-way valve in the inside set to external recirc (Down position) Then you'll need to set up the programming to the desired operation. Tech Support can walk you through this 800-519-8794 Thank you for watching! Make sure you follow us on our FB page here: facebook.com/scottgreggoutdoors/ I usually post what's coming up there as well plus other channel insight and content not on UA-cam. Also Instagram at instagram.com/scottgregg1966/
Had 2 naviens in the last 4 years. They suck break down and expensive to fix even though parts are under warranty. And yes they were installed. Correct
That hard to hear as we as a local rep would have wanted to get involved before you developed that opinion. As a long time Navien Rep and when you sell tens of thousands of an item, we unfortunately run into projects that have issues from time to time. That is what your local reps are there for; as another layer of support behind Navien Service Specialists. Many Navien dealers are very good and are able to solve problems quickly... some are not. I would suggest you contact a Local Navien Service Specialist from the dealer locator on the website. These are the best of our dealer network and you may ask them if they can have a local rep visit as well to determine once and for all what is going on with your project. Something is very wrong if you have had in 4 years with problems.
Every customer of mine gets a Navien tankless install from me here in the SF Bay Area. From brand new high end new construction homes to just simply upgrading from standard water heater to tankless in single family homes. Never once in the last 5 years have I had a customer call back due to malfunctioning of the unit. One time I had an issue and that was from my minor mistake, other than that Navien all the way baby!
The Navian provides good service and appears to have good capability. However the Navian literature isn’t clear and the contractors only know default setups. I’m attempting to use the Navian Hot Buttons and the contractor don’t know how and the factory tech support is reluctant to assist me. Had I known what a joke the Navian service policy is I would never have bought it.
Yes, but with that model you'll need to add the wired remote or the Navilink module and use the phone ap to program it. With the New V2 models, the programming is available on the keypad that comes on the front of the unit.
40yr plumber here. Just been hired to find out why the other company that installed a 240A2 last week cannot get the recirculating system to work even after installing the navicirc. Knowing nothing about these systems I started doing research and you were my first stop. After watching the video, I got money that says this is my last stop as well and the answer has been solved :) Great job guys! Love the fast talking. However I can’t wrap my brain around the first method of recirculating, what good is a pump that has no line to recirc with? Guessing that terminology is being used, but in essence it’s not a true circulation but nothing more than a small holding tank always hot to prevent lag. So it’s really a lag prevention, not a Recirculation system :)
the internal recirc is supposed to be similar to a grundfos comfort system
Did you not catch this improperly installed? Check valve wrong location not being upstream of tee along with thermal protection. I used this video along with the book to figure out a few things. Our instructor was wrong as well stating to only reverse pump switch and set cycle times correctly. Basic training never explained water hook up with Navi circ so this was an experience
I literally logged in for the first time to thank you (and like vid!). The part about the "External vs Internal" is in NO way described anywhere else. This video confirmed my suspicions of a new install was underwhelming. I had previous 3/4" return plumbed, but they had they internal switch set to Internal circ and computer set same. A few screws and the changing of some settings and much better results at the tap. Thanks again for this and the other 2 videos I watched to Pre/Post purchase.
In case it helps anyone in future, the check valve for external circulation (NaviCirc setup) is not required for A2 model per Navien tech support over the phone. The check valve is built into the A2 model now.
You also do not need to bypass the cold feed to the external recirc connection with the A2 model as that also is done internally.
@@eklof6510 I just had a NPE-240A2 installed at my home and I'm curious based on your above comment if you're saying that the "T" fitting is no longer needed with the A2? And if so, is it also not required to change the recirculation setting to "ext"? I'm definitely interested in getting the NaviCirc installed, I just want to make sure I ask for the most accurate thing from the plumber. Thanks for the videos! They've been very helpful in understanding my system.
This was an exact replacement for the old one that lasted about 10 years. ua-cam.com/users/postUgkx7yWIKcrbA9KMHkGSfcgxW2lsjHT6B8Sh The top of my mitigation tube by my roofline was just a 90 elbow which allowed too much debris to fall down into the fan, eventually ruining it. Without this issue, I bet it would have kept running another 10 years. When I replaced this fan, I added an extra elbow joint so the top tube now it does a 180, which should solve that problem. The radon guys around here wanted to charge me a $300 diagnostic fee, then parts/labor (probably close to $600 total). I installed this all by myself in about an hour for the cost of the fan; it would probably be even easier/faster with two people. FYI the manufacturer's warranty greatly differs depending on whether you install it yourself (1 yr warranty) or have a licensed installer do it (10 yrs).
Helpful video, thanks! I have the 240A and noticed that my cold water is now coming out hot for about 45 seconds, presumably it has something to do with the recirc setup. Any idea how to fix it other than to turn off recirculation? Thanks!
Which way is the black valve (2-way) supposed to be turned for internal recirculating? 9 o’clock or 6 o’clock? Thank you!!
Im assuming the check valve is pointing into cold water inlet?
Gee, i really hoped it will tell us how to set up switches inside the water heater for external circ pump
The dip switches here are not shown correctly for the newer models. The first thing I did was check and there is no bank of 10 or anything like that so I guess the newer models have a different setup? All I saw on the side was 2 lone dip switches
Why is the check valve not upstream the tee. Before the tee on the main incoming. That’s where it needs to be to serve its purpose. Otherwise it’s pumping into the main as well. Thermal protection must also be added on the system within those circuits
Do those recirc valves fail after 2 years? I have a plumber recommending a direct line rather than using the included Navien valve b/c they say they fail after couple years
Clear and concise, thanks!! How much is lag reduced when using the internal recirculation feature vesus not using any recirculation at all?
Video is very helpful! I have a 240a installed with external recirculation line option. Dip Switch 1 and 2 are ON for intelligent mode. When the recirculation turns on I get the pipe knocking sound , as if air is in the line/pipe(PEX). Do you know what causes that to occur? I have been looking everywhere for information. I also wanted to ask if it's okay to lower the pump run time from the default 20 minutes down to 10 or 5 minutes? Thanks in advance for your help. The unit was installed over 2 years ago, and the knocking noise has increased over the last 6 months.
I have the NPE-240A model and I am planning to add the NaviCirc valve at the fartherst sink to use the cold water line as a return. The only question I have is regarding the checkvalve (time 2:05). Which way is it supposed to be installed? I am somewhat confused on the waterflow and just can't picture it in my head.
Jerry Jablonski This is detailed in the installation manual including all of the setting parameters for your desired operation. Tech support will also be glad to walk you through if you are the installing contractor. 800-519-8794
Thank you for watching! Make sure you follow us on our FB page here: facebook.com/scottgreggoutdoors/ I usually post what's coming up there as well plus other channel insight and content not on UA-cam. Also Instagram at instagram.com/scottgregg1966/
Does this work in all NPE models?
Would it works on a NPE-240S2
I'm debating on having a Navien npe-240a2 installed is this a good unit for a 2800 sq ft 2 story house with 3 bathrooms? Does one need to run a condensing drain pipe? How often and expensive should they be serviced? Do these require flushing valves? Also looking at the Bosh Greentherm T 9900 SE 199NG. Which is better and going to last longer?
IS the check valve necessary for use with the navicirc device? I had a plumber install the navicirc, he basically did not even want to add the extension off the cold water line to the recirculation line and I am failry certain he did not install a check valve. Will this system function without the valve?
Refer to the NaviCirc instruction manual on Navien's website. It shows the tee branch from the cold water line into the recirculation inlet is needed with the NaviCirc device. As for the check valve, it is required for models prior to the A2 series. The NaviCirc manual says the check valve is required, but I called Navien tech support to confirm; they said the check valve is not required for A2 model and the NaviCirc instructions are from 2019, so they're just outdated for said model. Hope this helps.
The check valve is required for the system to work properly per the instructions. You might want to contact your local Navien Service Specialist to check it out.
Can going above 140 deg cause damage to water heater or pipes?
140 is maximum of any water heater including commercial. Would be absolutely no reason to exceed that.
Is it possible to use the NaviCirc™ with a PEX Manibloc?
Yes sir. However you will obviously only be recirculating one fixture at a time because of the way manibloc systems are piped. The NPE-A model internal pump can do up to 100' of 1/2 total pipe or 400' of 3/4" pipe with a Navicirc installed or an external pump properly sized for the applications can be used with either the NPE-A Model or S model heaters.
@@eklof6510Thank you! I had the Navien NPE-A2 240 installed last week and we are thrilled with it. I am thinking about having the plumber return and put a NaviCirc on the kitchen sink and the master bathroom sink as these are the only two places that I care to not have to wait for hot water when needed. I am also thinking that this will atomically bring hot water at least at the entrance to the Manibloc for the other hot water hookups and possible result in a bit shorter wait time on them as well. Can I put more than one NaviCirc in my home and am I on the right track with using the NaviCirc with the Manibloc?
Trying to figure out if I need an expansion tank installed on my hot water recirculation loop. I have the DIP switches set correctly and the EXT valve to set correctly, loop works good, but wondering if an expansion tank is needed or not. Do you know?
You don’t need expansion tank for tankless water heaters
Empire Plumbing: On a recirc loop you do because it is now a closed system! Please attend to a Naven installer class when you can make time for it.
YES you do! Whenever you have a recirculation system or stored hot water, you need and expansion tank sized to the water volume of the system. We are the Rep in your area. Please contact us and we will be glad to help you with this. The Virginia main office number is: 804-266-0079
@@eklof6510 Yea I called Navien two times one week apart. One phone call they said you need a tank. The other call to Navien they said no you do not need one. I noticed in the installation manual they show an expansion tank, however its always on the COLD supply side so very confusing.
Check this out ua-cam.com/video/W0WTJ-GRdYI/v-deo.html
I do not understand why the Coldwater is put on the recirculating side? Please someone in for me because I actually did the install and it did not work out well. I replumbed it for both hot water on the left side
There is too much to go back and forth with it in these comments. The installation manual has several different ways to pipe recirc based on the type of installation. There are several different ways to do it depending on what type of recirc system you are using.
Thank you for the info that you provided, this was helpful! I flipped the dip switch 1 to ON for my NPE-210a and it seemed to help me get hot water faster to my upstairs sink/shower. I have a couple generic questions:
1) Now that I finally turned on recirculation switch, do I need a bridge valve at furtherest sink upstairs? I've read several times about installing a bridge valve, but am unsure if it's needed.
1) I have seen in other forums/videos that when the home owners first installed a tankless water heater, everything was working fine, and he got continuous hot water. But then when his kids got older and started using more water, the kids would have to wait for hot water (their room was a little further away I believe). So does that mean that the standalone tankless water heater only works well when there are only a couple people using hot water? So if there are multiple people using water, then an external recirculation pump is needed? Or is it a distance thing?
1) No. You don't have to have a NaviCirc installed unless you want it to get hot water faster.
1) No it is a distance thing. The longer the piping is from the Navien the longer it is going to take to eject the water that has cooled off and is in the piping before the hot water gets there. "Lag Time" This can many times be helped with the NaviCirc installed by your local Navien Service Specialist.
I need a video on a S2 model adding external pump.
Junior duran Thanks for the sugestion. We'll have to see about doing that one. There are several reasons for needing to add an external pump and different answers for each application. In the mean time, everything you would need is in the manual for the unit and also we have many application drawings covering them on Navien's website here: www.navieninc.com/downloads
Thank you for watching! Make sure you follow us on our FB page here: facebook.com/scottgreggoutdoors/ I usually post what's coming up there as well plus other channel insight and content not on UA-cam. Also Instagram at instagram.com/scottgregg1966/
Yes I did see that I just like when I can actually see it done but still thank you.
Is the external pump better than the internal ?
begaqincer It depends on the installation type. The internal pump can handle up to 500' of 3/4" piping run or 100' of 1/2" piping. If you don't need an external pump due to that, then yes the internal one is better. (Because you already have it.)
Thank you for watching! Make sure you follow us on our FB page here: facebook.com/scottgreggoutdoors/ I usually post what's coming up there as well plus other channel insight and content not on UA-cam. Also Instagram at instagram.com/scottgregg1966/
@@eklof6510 thanks
I have NCB-E combi unit. my water takes a while to warm up. Does combi unit have the same re-circulation built in? Dip switches? Thank you.
This is something to address with the installer of the unit. There are many variables in homes that can effect the "lag time" to get hot water to remote areas, and with it, more than one solution. Your installing contractor should be able to help you figure it out for your home.
@@eklof6510 thank you.
This a bit late, given the last comment was from about 9 months ago, but I am working through a recirc project on my NPE-240A and wanted to comment/question: The manual shows a check valve already internal to the unit. In order (in the diagram), water is shown flowing into the recirc inlet, through the internal recirc pump, and then through the check valve. Given this, is another check valve on the copper outside the unit really necessary to install? Again, this is the manual for the NPE-240A, not the A2. Thanks.
Yes, Pipe it per the diagram.
Ok, so to be clear, 2 check valves are required: an external check valve prior to the pump, and an internal check valve after the pump.
Now that is a great video.
Thanks Aaron!
Could you clarify what setting is needed for using the internal pump with an external recirculation line?
jmholsin First, you have to have the 2-way valve in the inside set to external recirc (Down position) Then you'll need to set up the programming to the desired operation. Tech Support can walk you through this 800-519-8794
Thank you for watching! Make sure you follow us on our FB page here: facebook.com/scottgreggoutdoors/ I usually post what's coming up there as well plus other channel insight and content not on UA-cam. Also Instagram at instagram.com/scottgregg1966/
Nice video!!! 👍🏻👍🏻
Thank you Dan!
Had 2 naviens in the last 4 years. They suck break down and expensive to fix even though parts are under warranty. And yes they were installed. Correct
That hard to hear as we as a local rep would have wanted to get involved before you developed that opinion. As a long time Navien Rep and when you sell tens of thousands of an item, we unfortunately run into projects that have issues from time to time. That is what your local reps are there for; as another layer of support behind Navien Service Specialists. Many Navien dealers are very good and are able to solve problems quickly... some are not. I would suggest you contact a Local Navien Service Specialist from the dealer locator on the website. These are the best of our dealer network and you may ask them if they can have a local rep visit as well to determine once and for all what is going on with your project. Something is very wrong if you have had in 4 years with problems.
@@eklof6510 have you seen Mikey Pipes channel? You may want to reconsider Navien and their quality
Every customer of mine gets a Navien tankless install from me here in the SF Bay Area. From brand new high end new construction homes to just simply upgrading from standard water heater to tankless in single family homes.
Never once in the last 5 years have I had a customer call back due to malfunctioning of the unit. One time I had an issue and that was from my minor mistake, other than that Navien all the way baby!
@@EconpLLC Yup, I have installed dozens of Naviens, no issues
The local dealers i got are total scammers
The Navian provides good service and appears to have good capability.
However the Navian literature isn’t clear and the contractors only know default setups.
I’m attempting to use the Navian Hot Buttons and the contractor don’t know how and the factory tech support is reluctant to assist me.
Had I known what a joke the Navian service policy is I would never have bought it.
Rofl
What's so funny? :-)
I have a NPE-240a. Is there a way to set up scheduling for recirculating?
Yes, but with that model you'll need to add the wired remote or the Navilink module and use the phone ap to program it. With the New V2 models, the programming is available on the keypad that comes on the front of the unit.