World War Two Heats Up: The M1928A1 Thompson SMG
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- Опубліковано 28 вер 2024
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By 1939, Auto-Ordnance was thoroughly bankrupt, having about $400 in assets and a debt of more than $1.2 million to the estate of the late Thomas Ryan, it's original financier. Ryan had died in 1929, but the company shareholders had prevented his estate from forcing the sale of the company for a decade. In 1939 they could hold out no longer, and the company was sold to one Russell Maguire, a high profile corporate raider.
Maguire, however, saw the potential of a submachine gun company on the brink of a new world war, and negotiated a contract with the Savage Arms Company to begin new production of Thompsons (the original Colt guns from 1921 having finally all sold). Orders began to come in from Europe, and new Model of 1928 Thompsons were sold to France, Sweden, and most substantially, the United Kingdom. The US military would also start buying Thompsons in quantity (designated the M1928A1), but the UK orders (paid for in bullion) were a massive source of profits for the company.
Auto-Ordnance would roll some of these profits back into the company, buying an old automotive brake factory in Bridgeport Connecticut and tooling up their own production of receivers and trigger frames to supplement Savage's production. A number of changes were progressively made to the guns to simplify and speed up their manufacture, including smooth barrels, stamped ejectors, vastly simplified rear sights, and horizontal front grips. By the time the M1928A1 was replaced by the M1 Thompson, more than 1.1 million had been made by AO and Savage combined. The Thompson had at last found it's purpose!
This is the third of a 5-part series on the development of the Thompson...
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How to confuse someone in WW2: Ask him to get you a M1.
M1 rifle, M1 carbine, M1 submachinegun, M1 helmet, M1 bayonet...
M1 dishwasher cleaner
76mm M1
M1 bazooka
To be more precise: "US RIFLE, CALIBER 30, M1"
Back in the late 80's and 90's I worked with a WWI vet who carried a Thompson in the South Pacific. His main use them them was interesting. He mentioned that the Japanese would ambush them from the trees so his job was to spray down the trees with the Thompson and see "what fruit would fall".
holy shit
1939 was probably the worst possible time to sell stakes at an arms company.
Depends if it's one that gets bombed out continuously for the next 7 years or one in the US far away from any damage but churning out the moneymakers...
Well, we have the benefit of 83 years of hindsight.
@@Ugly_German_Truths or one in a neutral country.
@@justforever96 what matters is what you leave behind
How 'bout 2022 ;)
This Thompson series is some of Ian’s best work, imo.
The executors of the Ryan estate must've been kicking themselves, selling the company on the eve of the biggest conflict in history!
Didn't he die in 1928, and then they fought over the rights for 10 years before WW2? so there was an intervening decade?
And the guywho ended up buying it was a lucky SOB.
Well, to be fair, it came out of nowhere. Nobody could possibly have seen World War II coming... oh wait.
@@ZGryphon Not saying the signs weren't visible in the mid-30s, but it's probably much clearer to us in hindsight!
When I was a kid (1950's) there were "war surplus" stores everywhere - even my small town in Kentucky. I used to prowl around just looking at the stuff. One day I found several boxes of beautiful snap on style Thompson butt stocks. I still remember that they were very nice quality - must have been made for the early model and never used. Sat in a warehouse somewhere for years. I wanted to buy one because they were so cheap even a kid could afford it but I really couldn't think of anything to do with it! The coolest thing I ever found was a huge barrel of things that looked like a toy to me but now I realize were a horrible weapon. They were "bomb shaped" about 2-3 inches long. lead body (Owner was selling them as fishing sinkers) pointed steel nose and sharp bladed fins. I now realize that these were flechettes made to be shoveled out or packed into a bomb casing and dropped over enemy personnel. falling at 120 MPH on a slight diagonal would have been like being hit by a rain of .50 cal. bullets. Terrifying.
The flechettes also drop a lot faster than 120... it's a common misconception that people have. Terminal velocity is a product of gravity and wind resistance. The human body falls around 120. A lead projectile with much higher density and much lower wind resistance falls much faster.
Rumor has it, Russia is using flechettes in Ukraine. Reportage was via NPR, so...
The Thompson started my fascination with guns. In all of the Call of Duty games I played as a kid, the Thompson was always my favourite.
4:20 that was very cash money of you France
I love it when Gun Jesus lets us time travel a day ahead!
Actually 3 days, there is also the M1A1 and the shooting video.
haha and i love it when i see morons waste money just for posting a meaningless comment earlier
@@Kevin-hx2ky how can one be such an ass
Dirt McGurt "Gun Jesus" that's great!!! Much love Ian!! Amen!!!!
praise
Well, now I feel guilty for not supporting Ian on Patreon.
Lugging this gun around in WW2 and the ammo must have taken a lot of strength/endurance. I was really surprised how heavy one was unloaded.
Imagine it with a full, rattling, 50 round drum.
They also made a 100 round drum.
Absolutely outstanding video again. I’m now looking at my Thompsons and am learning their origins. Spot on, cheers Ian!
I have an irrational love of the WWII Thompsons.
Yes so have I, in fact to the extent that it's along with the 1911 the best gun ever invented, because it could also be used as a rifle, all be it medium to low velocity, however if it hit you in the arm it would blow it off, yes I love the Thompson gun!
I preffer the m1921 modelbut every thompson is high tier
Scott Brooklyn even in the mid 90s the Thompson was still very popular on TV shows I watched in the 4th grade. Everything from cartoons, movies, comics, you name it. We watched reruns of shows from the 50s, 60s and 70s that drew from the previous generations like the roaring 20s all they way through WW2.
Please allow me to introduce to you then. . . The PPSH-41.
This is a great series, up there with your series on French rifles. Thanks Ian, I am really enjoying this!
Nice presentation of these Firearms Ian, what a great job, thanks
The thudding noise at 15:17 is from the video that’s not the ghost in ur home. This is for the ones living alone and watching with a stereo sound system and heard that noise coming from the end of the dark hallway ..
Among a whole ton of guns - including homemade submachine guns - I got to shoot a later model Tommy which was one of many captured terrorist weapons in Northern Ireland. It was a really fun weapon to shoot and is probably my favourite of the many I got to use over the years. Very little recoil and very controllable in the right hands. This series Ian put together was a very good history of the gun.
In Spain we call this cathegory of weapons 'subfusíl'; my fav is the 1928A, with the compensator the Tommy is über pimp to me.
charles wipman cool! I want to have that version of tommy with the compensator in the new battlefield.
fusil in French is rifle. Guess it's the same in Spanish
So basically sub machine gun. Or subrifle (literally). In German it's Maschinenpistole (machine pistol). Machine gun (as you use it in the US as a legal term) usually always refers to actual machine guns (Maschinengewehre, literally machine rifle) such as LMGs, HMGs, SAWs etc.
haha i know i'm actually half Swedish xD (and half Swiss). My Swedish is a little bit suboptimal (i wasn't born in Sweden and i don't live there, well only for vacation xD) but i knew that one Lol. Swedish generally speaking has very funny words. Not as funny as Dutch but it's up there
SonsOfLorgar how hard is it to own guns in Sweden? Do you guys need a hunting license?
My father carried one in WWII 1930s criminals loved the Thompson and the BAR.
7:40
Well, the italian equivalent for submachinegun is "Mitraglietta" as opposed to "Mitragliatrice", mitraglietta literally means tiny machinegun.
Mitraljez
Now i know from where we got the term
Thank you Ian for the wonderful history of the Thompson.
I live about 20 min from Bridgeport, Ct and it’s still possible to see your occasional machine gun or various other armament out on the streets of Bridgeport on any given night.
Great video series Ian...would love more series like this of the development of iconic firearms
Good times. Sounds like Morphy's has quite a batch this time. I know some of the history and differences, and i knew about Savage, but it's great to have all this detail. Especially side by side comparison. Great video as always. Thank you
I really like hearing about the history of these! Thanks Ian
Loving the series Ian! Would be awesome if you finished up the series with a shooting video with the awesome slow-mo you have been doing lately.
I always refer to the version without the compensator or fins as the A1. At the point they were building this, it was just about utility and economics at the cost of slightly reduced effectiveness.
To hell with Cable TV.!
One of the best educational videos ever. How in the world did you get your detailed knowledge about the evolution of this piece of machinery? (Lots of research surely) Infinite details like the knurled pattern on the safety switch being removed to save cost, a fastener being installed in the stock, the X in the serial number are all details that you really have to research to find - NICE JOB and THANK YOU!
Two years later, but... there are some excellent books published for collectors that contain a ridiculous amount of information. Ian has distilled it down brilliantly and focused on what most people will find most interesting.
Oddly enough, I was just listening to "Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner". Great song.
Bob Stinson Warren Zevon. Totally cool song.
Norway's greatest son.
Am I mistaken or is there a photo of Sir Winston Churchill carrying a Thompson ?
Yes, but the the one's you see are a bit faked up, what would be photoshopped these days. He was inspecting some defences in northern England during the war, and they snapped him next to the soldiers, holding one of their weapons. Then they 'photoshopped' the soldiers out of it and set him centre-shot - makes it a much more dramatic picture. The Germans took the same shot, 'photoshopped' it in a very similar way, and used it as a propaganda poster to make him out to be a gangster.
A few results from less than two seconds of internet search:
rarehistoricalphotos.com/winston-churchill-tommy-gun-1940/
commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Winston_Churchill_fires_a_Thompson_submachine_gun_alongside_the_Allied_Supreme_Commander,_General_Dwight_D_Eisenhower,_during_an_inspection_of_US_invasion_forces,_March_1944._H36960.jpg
www.auto-ordnance.com/winston-churchill/
www.ebay.com/itm/Churchill-Thompson-Tommy-gun-Keep-Calm-and-Carry-On-color-photo-I10105a-/223052538330
ww2f.com/threads/churchills-tommy-gun-found.53930/
Yrs ago I was privileged to fire a 1921 Thompson. Been in love with them ever since.
The best channel on UA-cam and the coolest man in the universe.
It's impressive that Auto Ordinance could was able to adapt to the change in demand that quickly.
Every time I view a Thompson SMG, images of Winston Churchill, J Edgar Hoover and the movie Kelly's Heroes come to mind. :)
Dont forget audie Murphy playing himself...note in the movie how he switches around from thompsons to carbines and garands throughout the movie and only bothers with the Tommy during close quarters assaults...this is *not* by accident in the movie, that's how these were often used by squad, platoon, and company commanders. Ditch the tommy to someone else in the squad until it's really needed up close.
My favorite version
I had a chance to shoot a 1928 in Panama after we took down Noriega. It was the "heavy" weapon in an almost deserted police precinct out on the edge of the Darian. It was in great shape, vertical front grip looked like really nice walnut. Police had one drum and two 20 rd stick mags. I got to shoot it because I fixed several 30 rd mags that had been damaged (bent/crushed) some years previously. Ran like a top.
Also saw several in the hands of Turkish soldiers, along with M1 rifles, while in Turkey in '87 or '88. They were our "bodyguard" detail to protect us from Kurdish "bandits" while on NATO exercise in eastern Turkey. Of course they were in great,if well used, shape.
Another excellent episode Ian, wasn't the removable stock done away with in the later 1928's also?
I prefer the horizontal forend over the vertical grip
yeyy two videos today! :)
BTW, the "AC" designation meant it was one with optional Cutts Compensator added.
My dad was a weapons platoon Sargent in the Pacific. He said the Thompson drum was too noisy at night in the jungle. And the Thompson itself was too heavy, so he preferred the M-1 carbine.
From what I've read, many Thompson drums were discarded the instant a soldier could get multiple stick mags, particularly when the 30 round stick came out,
Two sticks could be taped to one another, staggered top to bottom, for a quick change of 60 rounds without the rattle giving away location. Stick mags were also more convenient to fill and to carry than were drums.
Ian, did you pick up a T.A.R.D.I.S. when you were in Britain? Because you're now transporting us to the future. What's next, guns that are bigger on the inside?
Jonathan Presson Movie guns. Mags are bigger on the inside, at the very least.
@@rodrigogascagomez5190 Ain't the truth. I was watching an old spaghetti western the other day and thought, "Wow, he's fired that revolver 17 times without reloading! I guess that ain't legal in California!"
Jonathan Presson or the typical "spraying an area with an AK with a 30rd mag for half a minute"
Very cool. Nice weapons. In comparison I once read that the US military paid approximately $54 dollars apiece for M1911A1s during WW2.
To give some context, $200 in 1940 is equal to *$3900* in 2021. That’s about the cost of 4 m4 carbines
Fascinating history I enjoy the design aspects and how he explains them...
All Savage and AO production M1928A1s had compensators. None were originally produced with the front sight ring shown here.
Man, what an interesting piece of history that gun is
Remember Vic Morrow as Sergeant Saunders carrying a Thompson in “Combat”!
I have frired a 1928 and an M1 Thompson. The difference was substantial. The absences of the Blish lock, Cutts compensator and the smoothness of the 1928 was noticeable. The M1 worked OK but it just felt cheaper. Sort of a Cadillac vs Chevy kind of thing. They both did the job.
I would rather not sound like I'd strapped a maraca to my webbing. When Ian says the drums rattle, it's an understatement.
@@mfree80286 The 1921, 1928, and 1928A1 models could be fed with drum or stick mags.
Many GIs threw away drum mags as soon as they could get several stick mags for the very reason you mentioned, as well as the fact that drums are a pain to reload.
The M1 and M1A1 models had entirely different upper receivers and reciprocating parts than the previous models.
Certain Private Pike very much liked this gun... Rest in peace Ian Lavender.
7:36 This includes Germany and Finland.
The M1928A1 Thompson SMG is one of the best looking firearms of all time.
Awesome series! Totally digging it.
imagine having trouble selling full auto Thompsons.......if only i had a time machine
It's funny to hear him say "Morphy's" , because it sounds like someone with a weird accent saying "Murphy's". Is it Just me?
"straight cash homie" 4:12
Why did they change from the vertical grip? I'm not very aware of the pros and cons of the two styles of grips (vertical and horizontal) but I am under the impression that vertical foregrips are generally considered superior?
For military use a vertical grip is something that can easily break. Horizontal grips are less likely to break and are easier to make. The 1928A1 was the start of the second batch of manufacturer and was a rushed war time build. So a easier to make part was needed.
For added convenience when using it prone or from inside a trench, maybe? Which becomes more likely during the war ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Cost and manufacturing speed. Same reasons as the other changes. The war needed a million, right now.
The straight forearm was also easier to mount a sling to.
Vertical grips (and magazines) impede firing from the prone position. One of the reasons the Germans liked using captured Stens was because they were a better weapon for urban skirmishing when crawling around on your stomach.
Fascinating!!! .. on the edge of my seat the whole video!!
Thank you , Ian .
The ‘AC’ probably stands for Al Capone. He did buy a few Tommies. 😊
Might be a slight chance that it stands for Alternating Current.
A Thompson SMG saved my dad's life on the island of Morotai in WWII. If you want to hear about it go on Amazon and type "The Rising Sun Sets" in the search box, then click on the word "Listen" under the photo of the cover. This is a free sample of the Audio book.
Loving these Thompson episodes.
Great series, Ian. Very well done! Tommy guns rule!
Hey Ian if you could only have 5 guns which ones would they be?
Three different Berthiers, a Chauchat, and a Bergmann
druming maniac What could Gun Jesus do with only 5 guns (and 2 mags)?
So does the M1928A1 designation denote a model with the simplified features like the stamped metal ejector and stamped rear sight, or does the designation just refer to models produced for military contracts and all the simplifications fall under “M1928A1”? Were all those changes made at the same time or step by step and, if so, did each of those models with different simplifications have different designations?
M1928A1 was the designation for Thompsons that would be built after existing stocks of Colt built 1921 models that had been converted to 'M1928' configuration were finally exhausted.
New production would be built to the M1928 specifications and was thus dubbed M1928A1.
The economizing changes came bit by part, so a late production 'Tommy' would appear rather different from an early unit.
The M1 was a complete redesign (by Savage) of the upper receiver and internals.
In 1925 you could buy a brand new Model T for $260. Thompson's were $200.00, with only 1 mag.
Correct.
The finish shown at 6:30 is apparently left by two milling operations, possibly with a fly cutter. Decent enough, but pretty humble compared to the beautiful finish on the weapon in part 1 of this series, which seems to have been finished by surface grinding parallel to the long axis of the receiver.
The original contract of 10,000 units was produced by Colt in 1921.
Colt built Thompsons are vastly superior in finish and machining than were the later AO and Savage produced models which were built fast and cheap, but well functionally.
Born and raised in Bridgeport Connecticut home of the Thompson machine gun and a lot of other s***
This series is amazing.
"May not be the best...." But it was more than "Good enough". The "Tommy", this model in particular, has a reputation for being a hard hitting and reliable gun, something you were glad to have even if it was heavy and needed looking after. Especially loved by Jungle Fighters.
soldiers in the pacific were not fond of thompsons. they were heavy and bulky and the .45, although powerful, has low penetration and was weak against cutting multiple layers through the thick jungle fauna
I guess you mean flora. I'd agree, not much for range but dead useful when someone pops up from a bush right under your feet. What would you say they preferred? (I know the Aussies liked the Owen but the US didn't have that option!)
The M3 or the M1A1
@@vince7381 interesting, wouldn't both of those suffer from the same problems?
no because their lightweight was enough justification through extended firefights and long jungle treks
Print says 125 finish or better. Millhand is gonna send them a 125 finish. He don't wanna take blame for any profit margin loss.
Trivia - as a war movie buff I noticed that the older war movies (an "Combat") used M1928A1 Thompsons. Was there anything peculiar to the M1921/1928s that made them run better with blanks or was it simply that the Cutts Compensator was used to hide the blank firing adapter?
Probably more to do with that was what Hollywood had at the time, being unable to purchase guns that were needed by the military. In Bataan for example the Thompsons are the older Colt guns, but some 1928s crept in to be used in later productions like Combat. It was just after that time the M1 started to appear in productions probably because they were being sold off by the US military.
No knurling on cocking handle on later 28a1. Is there a savage commercial video coming? Or a nac stamped guns?
I would never have guessed one million produced.
Great History lesson and information! Thank you for sharing!👍🏾😀❤️🇺🇸
This is the sub machine gun the Desert Rats would be riding around in their trucks with, searching for Jerry and hoping not to run into the Italian Armored Car Squadrons.
Long Range Desert Group (LRDG) - the real 'Rat Patrol'.
Good video , Thanks for sharing .
That is a barely cleaned up mill finish, certainly not sandblasted. Usually the kind of thing that shows up out of necessity.
The M1928A1 was built fast and cheap.
They were durable and reliable, but gone was the sporting arms finish of the 1921 Colt built model.
thank u Ian...excelant videos....! Gerat job...!
What’s the difference in price between the Thompson and the BAR?
I like to listen to the history of a gun more than the disassembly, except a few
If these are internally identical, when did they remove the blish lock
I believe that happened with the M1.
@@Tobascodagama Correct.
The Savage redesign (M1) has a completely different upper receiver which did away with the Blish lock and oiling system.
The M1A1 was further simplified, particularly the bolt, making it a true 'blowback' system.
I had a 1928 kit for several years that was made by Savage and lend leased to Russia. I wish I still had it to see what the production number was as it had the Lyman sights, cooling finned barrel and Cutts compensator but the straight front grip. The story goes that they were included with Sherman tanks sent to Russia. Anyway, mine had been shot very little, if at all and was yet another version. Would like to hear about those models some time.
I read Dimitry Loza's book about commanding Sherman tanks during WW2 which was quite interesting considering his previous experience in the T-34. He also did a interview titled "I Remember" that discusses some things not talked about in his book. One thing brought up was about the Thompson gun supplied in the Sherman's and I've been puzzled by it since. Here's a quote from the interview:
"- Each Sherman came with two Thompson submachine guns, in caliber 11.43mm (.45 cal), a healthy cartridge indeed! But the submachine gun was worthless. We had several bad experiences with it. A few of our men who got into an argument were wearing padded jackets. It turned out that they fired at each other and the bullet buried itself in the padded jacket. So much for the worthless submachine gun. Take a German submachine gun with folding stock (MP-40 SMG by Erma -Valeri). We loved it for its compactness. The Thompson was big. You couldn't turn around in the tank holding it."
Seems hard to believe that padded jackets at relatively close range would stop .45 cal bullets? There were some parts of the book I also found a bit hard to believe but everything else makes sense and is totally plausible so a bit of a mixed bag.
@@mako88sb Thanks, that ties right in!
@@SopwithAviator NP. What do you think about his comment regarding padded jackets stopping the .45 cal bullets?
@@mako88sb I am very skeptical about that statement as it was a well proven cartridge and weapon system that was well liked by about all that deployed with it. Maybe some more data? I have to read again, but it almost sounded like damage to themselves? Very skeptical. I can see the maneuverability, probably the reason as well as cost for grease gun replacement of same.
@@SopwithAviator Yes, very strange that someone would even write something like that. He had pretty favorable opinion about almost everything else regarding American products, especially when they quickly found the specially packed booze found stashed away in gun barrels. :)
My favorite weapon in call of duty world at war.
I’m betting the Thompson family rued the decision to sell the original A.O. company.
Did the Germans, after defeating and occupying France, take any of the French Thompson's into their inventory of substitute standard firearms like they did Stems and PPSH? What nomenclature did they assign it?
YEOW. I know where an AO 1928A1 is with a serial number that is only 29 numbers away from the serial number of the 1928 shown at marker 9:04. It too has the US ground off, the "8" overstamped with a "1" and an "X" added to the end of the serial number. It came from a pd. I believe these markings were the result of police orders during the war or orders filled with spare parts immediately following the was (1946). Amazing for me to see this. (maybe they know each other)
I'm not much of a secretary. But I do love a good typewriter 😉
Why would they cut the compensator off for the police?
The Cutts Compensator was a 'cost option'.
Auto Ordnance, Stoeger, and other ads of the 1920s and 30s offered Thompsons without compensators at $175.00, with compensator for $200.
You know, he is describing this Russel MacGuire guy and I am just picturing Mitt Romney.
Yeah, me too. Or Danny Devito in Other People's money.
But definitely Romney 1st.
Rule of Acquisition #34: War is good for business.
Sort of surprised no-one tried fitting the Thompson with a folding stock.
My guess, a folding stock on a Thompson would probably break quickly from recoil/weight. Plus, the gun even without the stock is heavy enough that paratroopers and such needed something else, anyways.
Stop
AtholAnderson the film U571 has a Thompson with an M1a1 carbine stock.
They were prototyped.
I haven’t read all the comments, so I don’t know if this has been asked and answered. Why was the (presumably) US stamping in front of the nomenclature of one gun shown, ground off?
Boy, did Ryan's estate make a big mistake in selling of the Thompson company.
Ian, what was the best SMG of WW2 in your opinion?
Wah.. haha can take Drums too!! Alright Rev2 : "Machine Pistol" Confirmed!! & they say it couldnt be a Thompson on imfdb!! 😀😀
I wonder if that AO model was also Lend-Lease. It pretty clearly looks like someone obliterated where the U.S. would have been stamped.
Ian can u show the ppl the ak-47 corner shoot extension no one believes me it was to put on the top of the flash eliminator and to be used in tanks to kill infantry trying to get in
The gangsta gun goes to war.
Thompson history is the best history!
I want a fancy version of the Tommy Gun