Some notes about the end the stroke, when the hand is ready to exit the water. We call this the "Finish". Need TI coaching? Come over for a lesson in Menlo Park, CA at www.menloswim.com.
voila the feedback: the idea of a final bouncy slap corresponds with the basic knowledge of swimming: the accelerating stroke. however in our case, it acts more like a laggy turbo bursting at the latest rev range :) I felt more power and my arms tend to be pushed forward rapidly, but in expanse of more energy consumption(you mentioned this) and muscle stress as I felt my wrists & forearms aching on the way back home. maybe I exaggerated more while trying to implement.dunno yet, I'll give another try on wednesday with a calmer approach. thanks anyway
Mustafa Bircan yes the more you "bounce" at the end the higher the energy expenditure. But as I said you don't need to bounce but just draw the hand out as described. Or you can adjust the energy of the bounce as required for the current pace and use more energy when accelerating or sprinting. Certainly there is a conditioning component where your arms need to get used to expending energy in that way.
Hi! Instead of lifting the elbow through slot at the end and then swing the elbow forward, I was swinging elbow forward directly as you explained in you recovery video. I was not raising the elbow first through slot. Is it wrong ? In your last recovery video, you were swinging the elbow forward but not raising it through slot first.
David Shen Thanks for your reply. sorry I could not understand what you wrote. could you just pls tell that am I right or wrong. after finish, during practice, I do not lift elbow instead I bring the elbow forward (elbow lead recovery.)
actually i just deleted that comment. it was poorly worded and too quickly written, and a poor attempt to describe motion in 3D. as you stroke back, you should be rotating the body. at the end of the stroke back, your body should be nearly fully angled to whatever angle you are rotating to. your arm however is still in the water and there should be available angle between where you arm is now in the water and the limit to which you should be lifting the arm/elbow to, which is the line formed by a point on each shoulder. (going beyond that line means you are pulling your elbow behind your back which is not ideal and could create problems and injury). so now your hand is all the way back. remember that if you move your elbow straight forward without some lift, you will be moving the elbow through water (which is a drill we use). for regular freestyle, you will need to lift the elbow up as you swing it forward to fully move the hand out of the water. the combination of lifting and moving the elbow forward creates the diagonal motion of the hand/forearm as it draws out of the water at the rear. this means that the forearm/hand really needs to be relaxed at this point (as well as throughout recovery) because if it is not, you will likely be swiping a bit of water as you attempt the exit. i do not know if this is clearer, text is hard for such things. but hopefully this is better than my other ill-typed attempt!
David Shen : now I can understand. but after finish, my elbow remains out of water and it does not move through water. That means, I think, unconsciously I am doing the same thing, as you had suggested in your video. The moment it comes out, I make sure that I move the elbow forward.
@@dshentube David, I am mighty pleased that you are willing to do it - and I will bugging you if you forget. May I add it you could elaborate on the phase of pulling out of the water after the push. Thanks a lot, it's so kind of you.
Dave, thank you very much for sharing these fine details. In a previous video of yours, I understood that once we take the hand of water , we rotate it internally to bring it back into the water in the stream-line position . I have a difficulty doing that for the hand on the non-breathing side. It works excellent for the hand on the breathing side and very comfortably (only the muscles of the arm are moving in relaxed way why the shoulder muscles are on vacation in recovery in recovery stage) . However, for the non-breathing side (Left hand in my case) I try to rotate my hand internally but have difficulty doing so. As such, I try to move it out of water but keep in and then stretch it back into water but with no (or very slight rotation). This makes it feel a bit exhausted at the shoulder (and a little locked in). Any tips ..please?
I am not sure I understand what you mean by rotating the hand internally. Is there any way to post a video of what you mean by that and what is difficult for you? Thanks!
Thanks for reply. When I mentioned "rotating the hand internally" , I was refereeing to your other Video entitled "Total Immersion: Dryland Rehearsal of Recovery" . This can be found here : ua-cam.com/video/IGUVd7GHa5s/v-deo.html
Yes exactly , which is the concept of internal rotation , in your original video . I am finding it hard to apply that for left hand (my non-breathing side). trying to remove it out of water first (not too high to avoid exhausting shoulder , as you recommended) and rotate slightly (with arm leading and not shoulder) as you recommended . Scientifically and physically this makes perfect sense to me . ANy tip to do it successfully in the left hand
Hmm you could try the new recovery practice which is less strict about arm shape as you recover, and seems to get better results with swimmers: ua-cam.com/video/purF47MyIdk/v-deo.html. See also ua-cam.com/video/x2_8s-AVijM/v-deo.html for the dryland practice.
There is no metric I could assign to learning a new skill or habit. It depends on so many individual factors. It could take weeks if not months to get to a basic imprinting of this movement. Then there is reinforcement of the pattern over time, through different distances, speeds, tempos. Assign this to yourself as a focal point and work on it every time you go swim!
Either approach can work. It is highly dependent on the swimmer's opportunities for improvement and how they react to either drill and others. If I were coaching someone, I would try both and observe which works better. Self coached swimmers can do the same. I have seen swimmers be successful with either method. Personally I have found better success with the new recovery style than with the traditional bent arm recovery but that is just me. In truth when you look at video of my swimming, there actually isn't much difference visually. However, in what I feel when I swim is completely different. So drills and focal points like new recovery are more ways to stimulate reactions in your nervous system and not necessarily reality, but only reflect reality. Try both on dryland and in the water and see how you feel!
Another clarification - by below hips did you mean in front of the torso as below, or below as in towards the legs (meaning below the hips as if you are standing up). Just want to make sure I understand your use of descriptors.
I tested three techniques from this video tonight at the pool. (1) Pulling out arm in the hole created by my elbow worked. Stroke felt smoother. (2) Bouncing water like a basketball on finish did not work for me. (3) Pointing hand with palm facing backward for the entire pull seemed to increase speed. However, it certainly wasn't an "effortless" stroke, as Terry Laughlin used to describe TI swimming. Is a fair amount of effort normal in TI front crawl? (Terry Laughlin also used the term "perpetual freestyle" which also implies effortlessness.) In any event, thank you for a most helpful video. I've been studying TI for more than 21 years.
That "bounce" really helped me connect the pulling phase with the recovery phase. Thanks for making the video.
bouncing virtually from the back side made it clear. thanks, I long for my very next session monday mornin:))
Excellent demo thx!
voila the feedback: the idea of a final bouncy slap corresponds with the basic knowledge of swimming: the accelerating stroke. however in our case, it acts more like a laggy turbo bursting at the latest rev range :) I felt more power and my arms tend to be pushed forward rapidly, but in expanse of more energy consumption(you mentioned this) and muscle stress as I felt my wrists & forearms aching on the way back home. maybe I exaggerated more while trying to implement.dunno yet, I'll give another try on wednesday with a calmer approach. thanks anyway
Mustafa Bircan yes the more you "bounce" at the end the higher the energy expenditure. But as I said you don't need to bounce but just draw the hand out as described. Or you can adjust the energy of the bounce as required for the current pace and use more energy when accelerating or sprinting. Certainly there is a conditioning component where your arms need to get used to expending energy in that way.
David Shen 1.bounce as required
2.get used to it
by time It will hopefully be part of the stroke cycle as a natural motor motion. thanks
Mustafa Bircan I now think that bouncy slap adds minute increment to strokelength or rather loWers SPL. :) it adds up over the entire lap.
Hi! Instead of lifting the elbow through slot at the end and then swing the elbow forward, I was swinging elbow forward directly as you explained in you recovery video. I was not raising the elbow first through slot. Is it wrong ? In your last recovery video, you were swinging the elbow forward but not raising it through slot first.
David Shen Thanks for your reply. sorry I could not understand what you wrote. could you just pls tell that am I right or wrong. after finish, during practice, I do not lift elbow instead I bring the elbow forward (elbow lead recovery.)
actually i just deleted that comment. it was poorly worded and too quickly written, and a poor attempt to describe motion in 3D.
as you stroke back, you should be rotating the body. at the end of the stroke back, your body should be nearly fully angled to whatever angle you are rotating to. your arm however is still in the water and there should be available angle between where you arm is now in the water and the limit to which you should be lifting the arm/elbow to, which is the line formed by a point on each shoulder. (going beyond that line means you are pulling your elbow behind your back which is not ideal and could create problems and injury).
so now your hand is all the way back. remember that if you move your elbow straight forward without some lift, you will be moving the elbow through water (which is a drill we use). for regular freestyle, you will need to lift the elbow up as you swing it forward to fully move the hand out of the water. the combination of lifting and moving the elbow forward creates the diagonal motion of the hand/forearm as it draws out of the water at the rear.
this means that the forearm/hand really needs to be relaxed at this point (as well as throughout recovery) because if it is not, you will likely be swiping a bit of water as you attempt the exit.
i do not know if this is clearer, text is hard for such things. but hopefully this is better than my other ill-typed attempt!
David Shen : now I can understand. but after finish, my elbow remains out of water and it does not move through water. That means, I think, unconsciously I am doing the same thing, as you had suggested in your video. The moment it comes out, I make sure that I move the elbow forward.
What I meant, dear David, was if you could, please, make a video showing the last phase of arm underwater with the new recovery combined. Thanks.
I am thinking of re-filming the new recovery video so will include this in it, just keep bugging me to get to it! Thanks!
@@dshentube David, I am mighty pleased that you are willing to do it - and I will bugging you if you forget. May I add it you could elaborate on the phase of pulling out of the water after the push. Thanks a lot, it's so kind of you.
@@brigitt8149 Regarding the finish, does this video help: ua-cam.com/video/KSKuqfX53xo/v-deo.html
@@dshentube
Finally got this detail, - at least theoretically. Thank you, David
Dave, thank you very much for sharing these fine details. In a previous video of yours, I understood that once we take the hand of water , we rotate it internally to bring it back into the water in the stream-line position . I have a difficulty doing that for the hand on the non-breathing side. It works excellent for the hand on the breathing side and very comfortably (only the muscles of the arm are moving in relaxed way why the shoulder muscles are on vacation in recovery in recovery stage) . However, for the non-breathing side (Left hand in my case) I try to rotate my hand internally but have difficulty doing so. As such, I try to move it out of water but keep in and then stretch it back into water but with no (or very slight rotation). This makes it feel a bit exhausted at the shoulder (and a little locked in). Any tips ..please?
I am not sure I understand what you mean by rotating the hand internally. Is there any way to post a video of what you mean by that and what is difficult for you? Thanks!
Thanks for reply. When I mentioned "rotating the hand internally" , I was refereeing to your other Video entitled "Total Immersion: Dryland Rehearsal of Recovery" . This can be found here :
ua-cam.com/video/IGUVd7GHa5s/v-deo.html
did you mean swinging the elbow around in recovery, thus bringing the hand around?
Yes exactly , which is the concept of internal rotation , in your original video . I am finding it hard to apply that for left hand (my non-breathing side).
trying to remove it out of water first (not too high to avoid exhausting shoulder , as you recommended) and rotate slightly (with arm leading and not shoulder) as you recommended . Scientifically and physically this makes perfect sense to me . ANy tip to do it successfully in the left hand
Hmm you could try the new recovery practice which is less strict about arm shape as you recover, and seems to get better results with swimmers: ua-cam.com/video/purF47MyIdk/v-deo.html. See also ua-cam.com/video/x2_8s-AVijM/v-deo.html for the dryland practice.
I think he means, and I am sure Sinji says it somewhere, simply open your armpit.Hope this helps.
When reach to hips stop hand and dont arm more and recovery
How many days of practice does it take to become good at this in swim
There is no metric I could assign to learning a new skill or habit. It depends on so many individual factors. It could take weeks if not months to get to a basic imprinting of this movement. Then there is reinforcement of the pattern over time, through different distances, speeds, tempos. Assign this to yourself as a focal point and work on it every time you go swim!
Now, David, how do you combine this with the 'new recovery practice'?
Either approach can work. It is highly dependent on the swimmer's opportunities for improvement and how they react to either drill and others. If I were coaching someone, I would try both and observe which works better. Self coached swimmers can do the same. I have seen swimmers be successful with either method. Personally I have found better success with the new recovery style than with the traditional bent arm recovery but that is just me. In truth when you look at video of my swimming, there actually isn't much difference visually. However, in what I feel when I swim is completely different. So drills and focal points like new recovery are more ways to stimulate reactions in your nervous system and not necessarily reality, but only reflect reality. Try both on dryland and in the water and see how you feel!
Mr. Shen, please correct me if I'm wrong, but the arm movement is happening parallel to your hips, right?
can you elaborate on your question? it is not clear to me what you mean by parallel to hips. Thanks!
I meant that the palms, as they pass the body, are beside the hips and not below them, right?
Another clarification - by below hips did you mean in front of the torso as below, or below as in towards the legs (meaning below the hips as if you are standing up). Just want to make sure I understand your use of descriptors.
I tested three techniques from this video tonight at the pool. (1) Pulling out arm in the hole created by my elbow worked. Stroke felt smoother. (2) Bouncing water like a basketball on finish did not work for me. (3) Pointing hand with palm facing backward for the entire pull seemed to increase speed.
However, it certainly wasn't an "effortless" stroke, as Terry Laughlin used to describe TI swimming. Is a fair amount of effort normal in TI front crawl? (Terry Laughlin also used the term "perpetual freestyle" which also implies effortlessness.)
In any event, thank you for a most helpful video. I've been studying TI for more than 21 years.
I am curious about your opinion now that you've spent more time with it. Has it remained equally laborious ? Thank you.
my shoulders are tight
time to "untighten" them!