In No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal: Race and Class in Elite College Admission and Campus Life, published in 2009, Princeton professor Thomas Espenshade and coauthor Alexandra Radford demonstrate that, controlling for other variables, Asian students applying to highly selective private colleges face odds against their admission three times as high as whites, six times as high as Hispanics, and sixteen times as high as blacks. To put it another way: Asians need SAT scores 140 points higher than whites, 270 points higher than Hispanics, and an incredible 450 points higher than blacks (out of 1,600 points) to get into these schools. An Asian applicant with an SAT score of 1,500, that is, has the same chance of being accepted as a white student with a 1,360, a Latino with a 1,230, or an African-American with a 1,050. Among candidates in the highest (1,400-1,600) SAT range, 77 percent of blacks, 48 percent of Hispanics, 40 percent of whites, and only 30 percent of Asians are admitted.
@@adambrashear - which, hopefully based on the majority view, will be struck down (re: Grutter v. Bollinger) regarding state-funded educational enterprises. Race is too narrow and irrelevantly outdated classification - by Harvard’s own admission, it is one of a plethora of metrics to measure ‘diversity’ - to be weighted in admissions. As some Associates have asked “You’ve had almost 25 years, which the Court expected that the compelling interest for strict scrutiny would sunset. If not now, when?” Since Western Universities put a premium on the ability to bring a ‘diversity of ideas’ to the Colleges, isn’t it time to shed the remaining ‘separate but equal’ racial classifications , and instead weight that diversity of ideas without respect to race?
I heard a Harvard graduation speech a couple years ago say that some people who graduate from there will want to do great things and some people who graduate from Harvard will want to be villains.
“70% Harvard students believe they benefited from diversity. “ What if you ask the same question to an Asian student who should have been admitted but is not?
But Harvard only admits students who showed that they believe in benefits of diversity in their application... So I wonder what happened to those 30% students who, after 4 or 5 years of education at Harvard, no longer believe in diversity?
*** What if you ask the same question to an Asian student who should have been admitted but is not?*** It happened to my brother. He was Valedictorian of his high school, a near perfect SAT score, and a Black kid from his same class got accepted to Harvard, and he got rejected. His SAT score was over 100 points more than the Black kid.
They are "all" supremely qualified. If they were, Harvard could admit students randomly. The truth is there aren't enough "supremely qualified" blacks to go around for all the elite schools. Look at the proficiency tests in middle and high school. You think you can wave the diversity wand and presto-changeo, non-proficient math and reading students are all of a sudden "supremely qualified"? The sad truth is not only are African-Americans the least qualified ethnic group in the US, they lack the cultural traits to change or even recognize that fact. Unlike previous groups like Jews, Asians, and eventually Hispanics. And everyone who lives in an urban area knows it.
Very few are admitted on merit. Before AA existed universities were not admitted on merit. Even if they dismantle it merit still will not be used. America is not ready for all Asian ivy leagues. They will not let it happen. They will find a way to get there's in no matter what.
These super rich people think of others like animals at a zoo. You want to see each type of animal when you go to a zoo. It would get boring if you just saw the same ones.
So the colleges position is, "If we discriminate long enough that will end discrimination." I matriculated to another Ivy League school nearly 50 years ago. There was an affirmative action program in place then. The "underserved" students had a free ride, segregated dorms, segregated dining, and special "programs" to assist them through college. If affirmative action has not brought about its intended results in half a century, when will be call such programs the failures they are, and just treat all people equally regardless of their skin color?
Of course, the real Affirmative Action was and continues to be for white wealthy legacy students who began their drive on the 50 yard line while blacks, latinos and Native Americans were made to begin on the 1.
I was waiting for Justice Barret to ask if the endpoint approaches 100% diversity, will diversity have been achieved? They brought up Bakke. For those that don't know about Bakke, research it. He was an USMC officer, Vietnam Vet, great scores who applied to the UC Davis medical school. He was passed over for a lesser qualified minority student. The case made it to SCOTUS, where the U.S. Supreme Court declared affirmative action constitutional but invalidated the use of racial quotas. Seems contradictory, but hey, all the justices probably went to Harvard...
@@MalakaProtos33 well if it was a waste of your time don't read it but it wasn't a waste of mine I'm a stay-at-home mom I'm just waiting for my cake to get done
I knew an African American attorney. He was admitted to Berkeley but transferred to USC after his first year. He felt compelled to always explain that he got in on his own merit, not because of racial factors. This was true, but there is a real problem with the system when one feels compelled to have to defend one's admission to an elite school.
It broke my heart watching a change my mind clip where a young black girl was defending affirmative action in college and was devastated when asked if she got into college through her merit or skin color... she had to stop.. for a long time... this is one reason why I am not in favor of the practice. It's demeaning to have to defend one's merits vrs one's "privilege", which is exactly what affirmative action is. It's acceptance based not on merits.
One of the sad realities of this system is that the beneficiaries will always have cause to question and doubt themselves and their classmates or colleagues will, except re: their most brilliant peers, always have reason to wonder if factors like the gross differences in the percentages of similarly qualified applicants accepted by race explain why a given peer was admitted. It would also be fair to question how a legacy or beneficiary of a niche sports scholarship got in and how qualified such applicants would have been considered otherwise. If you let in members of one or a couple of groups based on much lower objective standards, it also makes sense that members of those groups would self-protectively cluster, self-segregate, and demand more segregated housing, programs, etc, and even more catering to their perceived group needs, while overcompensating by claiming the entire institution, which grossly favored them in recruitment, admissions, scholarships, mentoring, etc. is still racist from top to bottom.
In the Canadian military the government decided that the one occupation did not have enough women. My son in law, in the military, knew a woman who had worked very hard to get the skills to apply. She loved everything about it. But the moment they said they would only except women, she changed her mind. She could have more than qualified, but did not want to be in the position of people believing she only got in because she was a woman. She felt it would effect her carreer in the future. Likely right. So they basically stopped one women interested from joining. Maybe more. Diversity programs hurt everyone. One reason most eomen did not pick that carreer is it met a lot of time, more than average even by militarystandards, away from family. The woman in question knew she was never going to have children and really wanted that carreer.
@@dawnelder9046 a young woman beat me out for a very prestigious award in the Air Force, which she surely deserved (I did too, but fair enough). It broke my heart when she asked me if I thought she won just because shes a woman. I told her "yes, I think you won because you were the one woman who was clearly qualified, but I think you deserved it and have no problem losing to you.". She was an impressive young lady, and I told her so, but she still doubted her own accomplishments....because she knew as well as the rest of us that every institution discriminates in favor of women and minorities these days.
I'm an African American woman. I graduated high school with a 2.5 GPA and was probably more geared for a technical college. I went to the University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee; however, my official acceptance was pending completing a summer bridge program for students who were on the cusps. UW-MKE isn't a difficult school to get into by any means but given my low GPA and SAT score, I wasn't a top applicant. Through my sophomore year, I maintained a 3.75+ GPA and eventually transferred to the University of Wisconsin - Madison. While UW Madison isn't an ivy league school, it is an elite college and is often ranked in the top 50 for best universities. My first semester, I was overwhelmed. Not only did I struggle to keep up in lectures, discussions, and with assignments, my GPA dropped. I graduated by the hairs on my chin with a 2.3 GPA. Madison academics is more grueling, demanding and requires a level of thinking in which I was not exposed to in HS or while attending Milwaukee. While, I am grateful to have completed my degree I was not prepared for the rigorous academics that UW Madison required. I would have done better finishing my undergrad in Milwaukee and probably would have graduated in 4 years instead of 5. Thomas Sowell made a point that people who are admitted into ivy league schools based on Affirmative Action are actually disadvantaged. Instead of attending a college that aligns with student academically based on grades, test scores, etc., they attend an ivy league with high expectations and advanced curriculum which they are not use to or prepared for and students find themselves struggling to keep up. I am sure there are some students who were accepted into college based on AA that have done well but I do not think it's majority.
There are good academic studies that show you will learn more if attending a college where you are atleast average rather rhan being at the bottom of a ”better” college. It makes sense as well. One needs to learn at a pace that is suitable for the individual.
As I have said, everyone can be successful somewhere, not everyone can be successful everywhere. As with your experience, it is best to match preparation and abilities with a college where they can be successful. There are enough higher-education opportunities for everyone to have opportunity and access, just not everywhere.
Due to our suboptimal education system, many students, regardless of race, creed or color, are not prepared for the rigors of college. My 40 year old son stated when he was in high school, if you wanted to NOT graduate, you had to work at it.
My advice: don’t go to Harvard for real education but if you are looking for indoctrination, activism, brand identity and networking that is the place to go
@Censored Opinions you say that like it's a bad thing. I have several degrees from multiple institutions, and I received FAR superior instruction at the community colleges I attended. What an education costs is not indicative of the quality. In fact, several of the most educated people I've ever met never went to college, they just read everything that a college professor should have read, and lived life with a curious mind. One of my grandfathers was a farmer who never made it through the 8th grade. My father, who taught thousands of PhD students said that grandpa was one of the wisest and smartest men he ever knew...because he read about everything he wanted to know. My father, uncle, and (other) grandfather all taught at universities to PhD students, with my grandfather being the first Dean of a business school, and my dad finishing his career teaching at a prestigious international business school. I know what education SHOULD be, I was surrounded by it, as well as being a certified instructor for the Air Force with several thousand hours behind the podium. My father has given all of his grandchildren the advice to go to community college if they want the best instruction, at least through their AA. He has also lamented the utter destruction of academic rigor and the insistence that universities push their woke agenda.
@@bgraham928 no, it was accurate. once you get to the interview process at let's say a cut throat manhattan company, no gives a ratz ass where you went. it's about how quickly you can make the company money.
@@magamaga1827 No, it was stupid. Think of the many people with varying political viewpoints who went to Harvard. Theodore Roosevelt, John F Kennedy, Barack Obama, Mike Pompeo, Ron Desantis Kaleigh Mcenany and others. If Harvard's purpose is to indoctrinate like this person claims they are very unsuccessful.
With affirmative action, every black person admitted is NOT by hard work but by discrimination. System won't allow you to bypass affirmative action no matter how much you think you got in through merit.
@@sillasaram9121 Not only is your comment asinine, it’s a vast oversimplification-not to mention the racism embedded in your implication that any black person at a selective college is only there because of their race. The fact is that no one has ever gotten into a selective institution based on race alone. The question at hand is whether an individual’s life experience as a minority can tip the scales in favor of admittance based on the fact of previous oppression or the presumption of overcoming discrimination. If there is a vast difference in the ability of two applicants, the “less strong” applicant would not get in based on their racial status alone. There’s a middle ground here: first of all-I might add that the presumption of “racial admittance” is commonly used to bring down the very real achievements of people of color at selective institutions. I’ve had it happen in my own experience at Yale-it’s not pleasant to have your work reduced to “you got in because you’re xx race”… But at the same time, affirmative action programs have a very real positive externality in that they uplift people from backgrounds that are historically and statistically less well-off. The question here (aside from the constitutional considerations, which different legal philosophies can disagree on) is whether or not the positive externality of racial consideration outweighs the supposed negative effect of those who would have been accepted in a pure meritocracy. I would tend to argue for a financial system, which uplifts students who have had to overcome financial barriers regardless of their background, without necessarily banning racial considerations for those who have faced discrimination in their lives. I would also argue that a meritocracy doesn’t take into account the unequal footing students start on, and thus, doesn’t pick out the smartest or most ambitious students as well as a holistic system does.
@@gustavot4645 Speaking of unequal footing, can you speak about the conditions and level of discriminations first generation Asian-Americans endured to give their children the success later on? Because their parents endured and worked hard, now their children should be punished for it? You act like the first Asian immigrants to the U.S were welcomed with opened arms.
@@gustavot4645 You may delude yourself about your merit, but it didn't do a damn thing when racism played a part however small. When racist affirmative action is at play, EVERY black and hispanic person got in through purely due to their race, because the stench of racism infected on every level.
@@sillasaram9121 lmfao I don’t think you read my comment at all-you didn’t respond to a single argument I made… anyways i don’t think it’s worth having an intellectual discussion with someone who makes such asinine and racist arguments-have fun getting triggered at a UA-cam comments section;)
The law says if the school is federally funded, it cannot discriminate based on race, whether blacks, Hispanics, Asians or Whites. Pretty straight forward. The guys talks a lot without saying anything sensical.
From personal experience. I am a recipient of reverse racism. my best friend and I had the same GPA on graduation from high school. She was black, I was white. Guess who was the one encouraged and helped to go to UC Berkeley? Not me, though our household incomes were similar.
@@larrymann803 Call me Nobody then because as a former Fed, i know for a fact, that Race plays into the hiring and acceptance game with the Fed. We had to Hire unqualified Applicants based on Race and quotas.
Frankly, the way UCB is today, you dodged a bullet. If you'd gone there, you'd have been fed a constant stream of racist guilt-peddling against you just because you're white.
"Reverse racism" is not a thing. Racism is not white people discriminating other races. Racism is one race discriminating another different race. Discrimination against white people is racism, not "reverse" racism.
NO ON AFFIRMATIVE ACTION!!!! PERIOD!!!!!!. Admission should be base on the good grades and excellent merits of all Students. Race or focus on particular Group should not be even discussed on every application. Each student should be able to provide evidence of their hard work at school to be deemed acceptable to any University. Period!!!!!!
The judge was raised in and continues to be part of a cult. She has no business on the court and her nomination broke court precedent as established by the GOP.
@@carlfaucher1543 I couldn't care less about what family this judge was from or what school she went to or who nominated her. Her words were concise, logical, and cut through.
@@carlfaucher1543 I have no idea what you're talking about. It seems you're trying to discredit this judge. But the judge isn't trying to make the audience believe what she says. She's pointing out the flaws in the defendant reasoning ability and she's successful in that.
I was in high school in the late 1980's. One day, in tenth grade English class one of the students asked the teacher which college he graduated from. The teacher said Harvard. Jaws dropped and the entire class stopped and looked at him for about 10 seconds. They were awestruck. That's what Harvard meant back then. Not now. Not anymore.
@@BobLbrmn And yet his response is substanceless, vapid, and nothing more than a wordy obfuscation. Jack is exactly right; when you have a long pause followed by an empty and desperate response, what you're truly witnessing is someone who knows their position has been dismantled.
As an atty I genuinely felt terrible for him, even though I strongly disagree with his argument. That pause was BRUTAL. You’re paid to argue something. That doesn’t mean you necessarily believe what you are arguing. He panicked realizing he couldn’t support the argument. Worst position to be in. Silver lining I’m sure he was paid well lol
If they want to make things "fair" in order to help underprivileged people get ahead, then the measurement should be based on family income, not race. There are rich and poor people of all races.
Fun fact: 60% of students at the top 20 American universities, have parents in the economic top 1%. If you look at IQ dispersal among various groups, lot of smart people in the top 1%. But, but, but. But based on academic ability and IQ, there should be around 3% of people at elite top 20 American universities, with parents in the economic top 1%. The system is rigged, based on class, far more than race. It's nepotism. Their kids get elite jobs. It's the 1%, rigging things, for their kids, many of whom are spectacularly unimpressive. Those unimpressive people go on to elite positions, run the country. No wonder we're in trouble. Harvard is a big con job.
The 2/3rds that loved their diverse educational experience at Harvard is cute. You know who doesn’t feel that way? The thousands of other qualified applicants that weren’t granted the opportunity to experience their glorious diversity. The policy is racist. I know from experience as the student representative to my medical school admission committee in the early 90s.
affirmative action is just another loophole to do whatever the school wants. just like mlk said... it's the content of their character, not the color of the skin.
Sadly our society has now gone from trying to raise everyone to do their best to bringing everyone down to match the lower scales of achievement. It’s the trophy for everyone generation fulfilled. It’s not only universities but everything. We have sadly dumbed down our public because we no longer require the best for them. You can now get a trophy in life for everything.
Weren't we through with discrimination based on race? Apparently not since these days in the workforce, the only thing that matters is the color of your skin and sexuality rather than if you can actually do the damn job.
We actually treated blacks as a different nationality, somewhat like the British treated the Irish, both in the South and North. This despite the language of the 14th Amendment.
Ever look at a Harvard application? Ultra prominent (pretty much the very first thing asked on the application) is race, and nationality. I know, because when Obama became the dem candidate, some people (100% on the Right) were asking, "how did a dope smoking slacker (HIS own description of himself...before he ran for office), with average (at best) grades, and ZERO extra curricular activities get into the most competitive (for applicants), most prestigious university in the world? Well....the very first question Harvard wanted to know was "nationality." Next came race. And, there is a whole paragraph right on the application explaining that Harvard is committed to diversity and having students from around the world as students. Obama was the ultimate diversity box check for Harvard---a black....from AFRICA. Kenya. No one ever saw his Harvard application. It became one of America's most closely guarded secrets. An average student with zero scholastic achievements (the guy belonged to no clubs in school whatsoever) isn't EVER going to get into Harvard. Not even a mere "African American" one. There are plenty of black applicants to choose from. But...an applicant from (born in) severely underrepresented Africa was hugely appealing to diversity obsessed Harvard university. There is no way....NO....WAY....a guy with his scholastic record gets into Harvard as just an "African American" applicant. Check out the application for yourself. If they haven't changed it, Race and country are VERY prominent application lines.
"And 70% said that Harvard's experience had lead them to seriously question or rethink their beliefs about a race or ethnic group different than their own." That question seems carefully crafted to get as many yes answers as possible. Are they referring to beliefs about the timeline of Native American migration to the Americas from Asia? Or are they referring to beliefs about how often people in modern Japan eat sushi? When I first meet someone of another race, I generally assume that they're human just like me, and that their race tells me essentially nothing about them, except possibly their tolerance for very high or very low levels of sunlight, which rarely matters. But would a Harvard experience cause me to rethink that belief, and to instead make other assumptions about them solely on the basis of their race?
I know my opinion doesn't count for much but here it is. When a person is applying for a job or to a university the only thing that should be considered is the person's ability to do the job or have the capacity to be able to benefit from the universities offerings. The race or ethnicity is not and should not have any bearing on the person's acceptance in either case. Besides it is unconstitutional and against the law.
The problem is when you have 60,000 applicants and 13,000 positions you're going to have a lot of people who have mastered all relevant tasks and demonstrate perfect performance at all relative aptitudes. That being the case what do you do then to make a fair choice?
@@jayarrbobdobbs Gimme a break. No 2 people are exactly alike unless they happen to be identical twins, and I'm not sure they're even exactly alike. Read the applications thoroughly. Review the academic records thoroughly. Find the hidden stuff that differentiates one candidate from another and makes one candidate the better choice. Then stack the applications from top qualified to 13,000th qualified.. Take the first 13,000.
@@cats0182 out of 60,000 yeah there are going to be tens of thousands who made it their life mission to get admitted into an ivy and their applications are going to basically be identical.
@@jayarrbobdobbs should that be the case and everyone who has applied rates the same or the top 20,000 are equal in eligibility. You put the names in the proverbial hat and draw the winners. Obviously this would be done like a lottery drawing but the point is that is the fairest way. Unless of course the university wants to increase the levels of students enrolled there.
Sadly, if your heart surgeon were a 'favored' minority with a great personality who graduated from Harvard, your immediate thought would be that s/he is unqualified to perform your surgery. And if your heart surgeon were an Asian with a crap personality who graduated from Harvard, your immediate thought would be that s/he is supremely qualified to perform your surgery because s/he was so stratospherically intelligent that even Harvard couldn't turn her/him down. Discrimination breeds mistrust.
The problem lies in the culture, more specifically, what is valued in the home by the mother and father. By the time one reaches college age, the foundation is laid.
Question: If Harvard's consideration of RACE in admissions was barred as illegal by SCOTUS, how many blacks would be admitted each year? Question: What is the average SAT scores of Blacks as opposed to Asian students?
Answer is that Blacks and Latino students get triple digit bonuses to their SAT scores and Asians have a triple digit negative modifier to their SAT scores. This leads to people who have no business attending college getting admitted and taking on tons of unnecessary debt as a result. The overall caliber of a student graduating today is fucking pathetic and a joke. This is what affirmative action gets you, people who are idiots being put in positions of power. The current diversity hire on SCOTUS is showing just how stupid she really is trying to insert race into EVERY FUCKING CASE and she rambles like an idiot. Her word count on opinions, since she joined, has DWARFED all the other Justices that have been on the court combined.
If Harvard wanted to defend the way they recruit, then you would have to also propose that all of those applicants are on an equal academic level, which I somehow doubt would be true. Therefore, they score other factors over academics or merit. I hope people recognize how bad this is.
I didn't learn too much from other students no matter how diverse, but from good teachers. The students who get hurt most from racial admissions are those who cant do the work. I saw it at Berkeley.
It seems to me, that Harvard wants to argue for an engineered desired outcome of consensus, instead of vigorous debate. Why not use a lottery instead of artificial qualifications?
Harvard desperately called me to ask if "I mind rooming with a black girl", but they never called her, a fact I had to extract from them. I barely made it through the year, I was so incensed. She, by the way, was a class act. Harvard was jive. I ended up in New York at Cooper Union there, much better.
Diversity might be reality but it’s not necessarily a strength. It’s usually in fact a challenge. It’s not wise to increase the diversity at this point
All I hear is a person trying to hang onto a bunch of high paying administrative jobs that have already outlived their usefulness and now are nothing but racial divisions.
This is sickening to listen to. He sounds exactly like he's a fanatic in charge of an eugenics programme, or (at best) a Victorian phrenologist. He's solidifying the status of race as an immutable characteristic, that he can play with to produce results that affirm his beliefs.
They should just be honest and admit they are now discriminating against a different group of students, but that discrimination is needed so they can achieve equity in the class - not the best qualified or most likely to complete the program or to produce the best professional possible - but just to have some students of every race, regardless of qualifications, for equity. Everyone knows that is what they are doing, why not just admit it and be done with it. A Harvard degree no longer means the best of, like it used to - now it just means, good connections, tons of money or a quota -- so sad.
Harvard: "Many, many, many tips... many, many, many dimensions... for diversity... through engineering race neutral alternatives... but we're not there yet." Hmmm? What an interesting way to describe racial discrimination.
When people employ those with a Harvard degree they want the prestige (high SAT scores) not the diversity. You want to hire based on diversity hire someone who graduated from a community college.
The justices all sound human. I always thought it would in high fluting legalese way way way beyond my low/uninitiated ability to understand. How shocking and refreshing.
Cardinal Newman had this take on that: the best college was not the one with the best faculty but the one with the smartest kids because they could teach one another. As in athletics, you learn best by playing with the best.
Remember this: Medical schools are feverishly "bean counting" in an effort to achieve "diversity". But, is this effort producing the best candidates to become doctors? Who got left in the dust? Did their academic records indicate that they'd be better doctors than the ones that were chosen? When I seek healthcare, I don't care about race, religion, ethnicity, etc. I do care that the healthcare professional I'm seeing is the best at diagnosing what's wrong and coming up with a solution.
Remember, they just canned the professor who literally wrote the text for organic chemistry, because students complained it was too difficult 😑 you're training for a medical career ninny, it's not supposed to be easy!
Actually, Affirmative Action makes it easier to select the best doctors. If a white male graduates in the top of his class, you know he earned it. That's the doctor I want.
Meritocracy is thrown out the window these days. If I go to a college graduate to hire, work with or depend on their expertise, I would like to have the confidence in their advice or knowledge. Affirmative action only continues the discrimination when these ethnic graduates seek jobs or how they're treated by coworkers. The confidence in their ability isn't there. They have to prove they graduated on merit not preferential treatment. There should be a better way of leveling the admissions based on academic performanc by putting money on ensuring that all levels of schools have the same standards of academic expectations.
Because 'benefitting' is a very low standard with a myriad of possible perspectives and valuations of worth ranging from extraneous; but, possibly useful to immensely valuable, did anyone ask these students to quantify how they benefitted?
In the long run it hurts us as a society because we aren't educating those who earned it and have the knowledge, and are educating those simply because of their race.
UNBELIEVABLE !! Religion is one of the acceptance criteria????? Since WHEN is that not religious discrimination??? I can't even believe my ears. This lawyer needs to have his head examined, as well as the whole harvard admissions department needs to hit the dumpster.
Years ago, Father Andrew Greeley more or less got cancelled because he did a study of ethnic groups with different religious leanings. He rated them for academic performance. Jews were on top, Irish Catholics were second and WASPS of different groups and Catholics of the different groups were more or less down the list. Blacks were at the bottom.
I'll give you a hint about how corporations and universities define diversity as a means of pushing for "equitable" racial distribution.. If you have a group of four people, an asian, a black, a latino, and an arab. You then add a White man to this group, it is now less diverse than it was before adding said White man.
Discrimination is discrimination if done by individuals or government! Both violate the equal treatment clause of the Constitution. Why are they allowed to do that which companies can't or citizens can't do? Wrong is always wrong, regardless who does it!
No because there isn't one. It's open-ended to them just like they want it to be. Look at how they still complain about the injustices of slavery that was ended over 150 years ago. Then add the civil rights acts of the 1960s (almost 60 years ago) and you still hear and see them complaining about racism today. It's a never ending cycle that they want to perpetuate for eternity. No matter what they get they will never be satisfied and just demand more.
This issue will never end. One crop of students either drop out or graduate and a new crop of unmerited students vie for the spots. It can’t be solved from the university side , but must start at home and the lower educational end. The brightest and best duking it out in the ring of their hard work, and study achievements. If placement outcomes are our goals then as observed actual discriminatory policies will always prevail with each new semester.
If race has no bearing on intelligence or competence why is it a determinant for admission? The only rationale for using race would be to have a variety of skin colors in a graduating class. A rather silly reason. I do believe giving preference to someone coming from a lower socioeconomic situation, assuming all other things being equal would be a good thing.
He started to say they were politically diverse but stopped short. I wonder how many conservatives are attending Harvard. I’m also willing to bet the number of Christians attending Harvard is also dropping.
"Racial discrimination is illegal, but we really like to discriminate" is not a defense.
If a state can show a legitimate state interest, they can discriminate based on race under *"strict scrutiny."*
In No Longer Separate, Not Yet Equal: Race and Class in Elite College Admission and Campus Life, published in 2009, Princeton professor Thomas Espenshade and coauthor Alexandra Radford demonstrate that, controlling for other variables, Asian students applying to highly selective private colleges face odds against their admission three times as high as whites, six times as high as Hispanics, and sixteen times as high as blacks. To put it another way: Asians need SAT scores 140 points higher than whites, 270 points higher than Hispanics, and an incredible 450 points higher than blacks (out of 1,600 points) to get into these schools. An Asian applicant with an SAT score of 1,500, that is, has the same chance of being accepted as a white student with a 1,360, a Latino with a 1,230, or an African-American with a 1,050. Among candidates in the highest (1,400-1,600) SAT range, 77 percent of blacks, 48 percent of Hispanics, 40 percent of whites, and only 30 percent of Asians are admitted.
@@adambrashear - which, hopefully based on the majority view, will be struck down (re: Grutter v. Bollinger) regarding state-funded educational enterprises.
Race is too narrow and irrelevantly outdated classification - by Harvard’s own admission, it is one of a plethora of metrics to measure ‘diversity’ - to be weighted in admissions. As some Associates have asked “You’ve had almost 25 years, which the Court expected that the compelling interest for strict scrutiny would sunset. If not now, when?”
Since Western Universities put a premium on the ability to bring a ‘diversity of ideas’ to the Colleges, isn’t it time to shed the remaining ‘separate but equal’ racial classifications , and instead weight that diversity of ideas without respect to race?
@@adambrashearit's "compelling" interest under strict scrutiny-not "legitimate." "Legitimate" corresponds with rational basis scrutiny.
@@FifthGate Wow R.Y. You got my attention, that is one reason why we are experiencing/witnessing ineptness at higher levels.
" At he bottom of every man - made disaster lies a Harvard man . " Thomas Sowelll
I heard a Harvard graduation speech a couple years ago say that some people who graduate from there will want to do great things and some people who graduate from Harvard will want to be villains.
That's why Dr. Sowell went to University of Chicago instead of Harvard to complete his PhD.
Um sorry.... Robert Oppenheimer went to Berkeley, Princeton.
you mean a rabbi
“70% Harvard students believe they benefited from diversity. “
What if you ask the same question to an Asian student who should have been admitted but is not?
70% of Harvard students memorized the correct answer to the question.
Silent minorities will be ignored just like it have been. They won't start riot or violence.
But Harvard only admits students who showed that they believe in benefits of diversity in their application...
So I wonder what happened to those 30% students who, after 4 or 5 years of education at Harvard, no longer believe in diversity?
I guess that would mean they're in the other 30%
*** What if you ask the same question to an Asian student who should have been admitted but is not?***
It happened to my brother. He was Valedictorian of his high school, a near perfect SAT score, and a Black kid from his same class got accepted to Harvard, and he got rejected. His SAT score was over 100 points more than the Black kid.
If they are "supremely qualified" why aren't they just admitted on merit?
They are "all" supremely qualified. If they were, Harvard could admit students randomly. The truth is there aren't enough "supremely qualified" blacks to go around for all the elite schools. Look at the proficiency tests in middle and high school. You think you can wave the diversity wand and presto-changeo, non-proficient math and reading students are all of a sudden "supremely qualified"? The sad truth is not only are African-Americans the least qualified ethnic group in the US, they lack the cultural traits to change or even recognize that fact. Unlike previous groups like Jews, Asians, and eventually Hispanics. And everyone who lives in an urban area knows it.
Because they want to hand out useless degrees
Very few are admitted on merit. Before AA existed universities were not admitted on merit. Even if they dismantle it merit still will not be used. America is not ready for all Asian ivy leagues. They will not let it happen. They will find a way to get there's in no matter what.
Optics
These super rich people think of others like animals at a zoo. You want to see each type of animal when you go to a zoo. It would get boring if you just saw the same ones.
So the colleges position is, "If we discriminate long enough that will end discrimination." I matriculated to another Ivy League school nearly 50 years ago. There was an affirmative action program in place then. The "underserved" students had a free ride, segregated dorms, segregated dining, and special "programs" to assist them through college. If affirmative action has not brought about its intended results in half a century, when will be call such programs the failures they are, and just treat all people equally regardless of their skin color?
Its like the war on poverty if we spend one more dollar it will end poverty. 50 years of wasted money.
Of course, the real Affirmative Action was and continues to be for white wealthy legacy students who began their drive on the 50 yard line while blacks, latinos and Native Americans were made to begin on the 1.
The college's position appears to be that if discrimination didn't defeat racism, you didn't discriminate hard enough.
@@carlfaucher1543 How today is this true not just 50 years ago.
@@emmettkeyser1110 namely white men
There is no end point! This lawyer n Harvard knows this. It will never end.
Why would it? When do you stop needing a diverse college community?
I was waiting for Justice Barret to ask if the endpoint approaches 100% diversity, will diversity have been achieved? They brought up Bakke. For those that don't know about Bakke, research it. He was an USMC officer, Vietnam Vet, great scores who applied to the UC Davis medical school. He was passed over for a lesser qualified minority student. The case made it to SCOTUS, where the U.S. Supreme Court declared affirmative action constitutional but invalidated the use of racial quotas. Seems contradictory, but hey, all the justices probably went to Harvard...
@@semitope Diversity is weakness not a strength.....
@@semitope
Depends on how you define diverse.
The way Harvard and most universities define it, it’s been an abject failure.
@@thomasward00 Diversity of thought is incredibly important. Diversity of physical features is not.
It’s going to take the world 100 years to realize that “Harvard” no longer means “excellence.”
A higher education doesn't mean the person could put a bag in the bucket or rake a leaf or fix your toilet.
Graduates of the Ivy League are no longer superior than graduates of other schools.
@@andiolopwi6301 You wasted way too much time on something we all know. Reverse discrimination is alive and meritocracy is dead in the ivy league.
@@MalakaProtos33 well if it was a waste of your time don't read it but it wasn't a waste of mine I'm a stay-at-home mom I'm just waiting for my cake to get done
Nor has it been anything near "excellence" for a long, long time.
I knew an African American attorney. He was admitted to Berkeley but transferred to USC after his first year. He felt compelled to always explain that he got in on his own merit, not because of racial factors. This was true, but there is a real problem with the system when one feels compelled to have to defend one's admission to an elite school.
It broke my heart watching a change my mind clip where a young black girl was defending affirmative action in college and was devastated when asked if she got into college through her merit or skin color... she had to stop.. for a long time... this is one reason why I am not in favor of the practice. It's demeaning to have to defend one's merits vrs one's "privilege", which is exactly what affirmative action is. It's acceptance based not on merits.
Bummer, couldn't get into Santa Clara?
One of the sad realities of this system is that the beneficiaries will always have cause to question and doubt themselves and their classmates or colleagues will, except re: their most brilliant peers, always have reason to wonder if factors like the gross differences in the percentages of similarly qualified applicants accepted by race explain why a given peer was admitted. It would also be fair to question how a legacy or beneficiary of a niche sports scholarship got in and how qualified such applicants would have been considered otherwise. If you let in members of one or a couple of groups based on much lower objective standards, it also makes sense that members of those groups would self-protectively cluster, self-segregate, and demand more segregated housing, programs, etc, and even more catering to their perceived group needs, while overcompensating by claiming the entire institution, which grossly favored them in recruitment, admissions, scholarships, mentoring, etc. is still racist from top to bottom.
In the Canadian military the government decided that the one occupation did not have enough women. My son in law, in the military, knew a woman who had worked very hard to get the skills to apply. She loved everything about it.
But the moment they said they would only except women, she changed her mind.
She could have more than qualified, but did not want to be in the position of people believing she only got in because she was a woman. She felt it would effect her carreer in the future. Likely right.
So they basically stopped one women interested from joining. Maybe more.
Diversity programs hurt everyone.
One reason most eomen did not pick that carreer is it met a lot of time, more than average even by militarystandards, away from family. The woman in question knew she was never going to have children and really wanted that carreer.
@@dawnelder9046 a young woman beat me out for a very prestigious award in the Air Force, which she surely deserved (I did too, but fair enough). It broke my heart when she asked me if I thought she won just because shes a woman.
I told her "yes, I think you won because you were the one woman who was clearly qualified, but I think you deserved it and have no problem losing to you.". She was an impressive young lady, and I told her so, but she still doubted her own accomplishments....because she knew as well as the rest of us that every institution discriminates in favor of women and minorities these days.
I'm an African American woman. I graduated high school with a 2.5 GPA and was probably more geared for a technical college. I went to the University of Wisconsin - Milwaukee; however, my official acceptance was pending completing a summer bridge program for students who were on the cusps. UW-MKE isn't a difficult school to get into by any means but given my low GPA and SAT score, I wasn't a top applicant. Through my sophomore year, I maintained a 3.75+ GPA and eventually transferred to the University of Wisconsin - Madison. While UW Madison isn't an ivy league school, it is an elite college and is often ranked in the top 50 for best universities. My first semester, I was overwhelmed. Not only did I struggle to keep up in lectures, discussions, and with assignments, my GPA dropped. I graduated by the hairs on my chin with a 2.3 GPA. Madison academics is more grueling, demanding and requires a level of thinking in which I was not exposed to in HS or while attending Milwaukee. While, I am grateful to have completed my degree I was not prepared for the rigorous academics that UW Madison required. I would have done better finishing my undergrad in Milwaukee and probably would have graduated in 4 years instead of 5.
Thomas Sowell made a point that people who are admitted into ivy league schools based on Affirmative Action are actually disadvantaged. Instead of attending a college that aligns with student academically based on grades, test scores, etc., they attend an ivy league with high expectations and advanced curriculum which they are not use to or prepared for and students find themselves struggling to keep up. I am sure there are some students who were accepted into college based on AA that have done well but I do not think it's majority.
There are good academic studies that show you will learn more if attending a college where you are atleast average rather rhan being at the bottom of a ”better” college. It makes sense as well. One needs to learn at a pace that is suitable for the individual.
See? Even they're starting to admit they're inferior and don't want the boost! LET'S END THIS
As I have said, everyone can be successful somewhere, not everyone can be successful everywhere. As with your experience, it is best to match preparation and abilities with a college where they can be successful. There are enough higher-education opportunities for everyone to have opportunity and access, just not everywhere.
Due to our suboptimal education system, many students, regardless of race, creed or color, are not prepared for the rigors of college. My 40 year old son stated when he was in high school, if you wanted to NOT graduate, you had to work at it.
Great job stick it out! I appreciated hearing your story. Thanks for sharing! ❤️
Exactly why does a brain surgeon or a chemist have to have a "sparkling personality" anyway?
Helps to have a good bed side manner but overall patients will put up with a lot to get a good Dr.
They are usually eccentric.
Leftists are simply racist down to their bones. They are incapable of not being racist.
Most don't... most geniuses are a bit awkward and eccentric
Helps with malpractice…
My advice: don’t go to Harvard for real education but if you are looking for indoctrination, activism, brand identity and networking that is the place to go
That was very stupid statement.
Exactly. Who would go to Harvard to learn when there are books and the internet.
@Censored Opinions you say that like it's a bad thing.
I have several degrees from multiple institutions, and I received FAR superior instruction at the community colleges I attended.
What an education costs is not indicative of the quality. In fact, several of the most educated people I've ever met never went to college, they just read everything that a college professor should have read, and lived life with a curious mind. One of my grandfathers was a farmer who never made it through the 8th grade. My father, who taught thousands of PhD students said that grandpa was one of the wisest and smartest men he ever knew...because he read about everything he wanted to know.
My father, uncle, and (other) grandfather all taught at universities to PhD students, with my grandfather being the first Dean of a business school, and my dad finishing his career teaching at a prestigious international business school. I know what education SHOULD be, I was surrounded by it, as well as being a certified instructor for the Air Force with several thousand hours behind the podium.
My father has given all of his grandchildren the advice to go to community college if they want the best instruction, at least through their AA. He has also lamented the utter destruction of academic rigor and the insistence that universities push their woke agenda.
@@bgraham928 no, it was accurate. once you get to the interview process at let's say a cut throat manhattan company, no gives a ratz ass where you went. it's about how quickly you can make the company money.
@@magamaga1827 No, it was stupid. Think of the many people with varying political viewpoints who went to Harvard. Theodore Roosevelt, John F Kennedy, Barack Obama, Mike Pompeo, Ron Desantis Kaleigh Mcenany and others. If Harvard's purpose is to indoctrinate like this person claims they are very unsuccessful.
I want to see Harvard sued into oblivion.
SUE THEM
That will be difficult, seeing as how Harvard has more money than many small countries.
@James Bond: Why? Are you pissed because you are too dumb to get in?
Harvard must be very important to you.
They have an endowment of over 34,000,000,000USD last I heard...more than some countries or even states in the USA.
Discrimination in the guise of "diversity." Meanwhile, "diversity" is an extremely divisive cudgel to justify discrimination.
Diversity is a loaded racial term at this point.
Exactly!
If I went to Harvard as a black person I would always wonder if it was my hard work or just because I was a black. I think it’s insulting
With affirmative action, every black person admitted is NOT by hard work but by discrimination. System won't allow you to bypass affirmative action no matter how much you think you got in through merit.
@@sillasaram9121 Not only is your comment asinine, it’s a vast oversimplification-not to mention the racism embedded in your implication that any black person at a selective college is only there because of their race. The fact is that no one has ever gotten into a selective institution based on race alone. The question at hand is whether an individual’s life experience as a minority can tip the scales in favor of admittance based on the fact of previous oppression or the presumption of overcoming discrimination. If there is a vast difference in the ability of two applicants, the “less strong” applicant would not get in based on their racial status alone. There’s a middle ground here: first of all-I might add that the presumption of “racial admittance” is commonly used to bring down the very real achievements of people of color at selective institutions. I’ve had it happen in my own experience at Yale-it’s not pleasant to have your work reduced to “you got in because you’re xx race”… But at the same time, affirmative action programs have a very real positive externality in that they uplift people from backgrounds that are historically and statistically less well-off. The question here (aside from the constitutional considerations, which different legal philosophies can disagree on) is whether or not the positive externality of racial consideration outweighs the supposed negative effect of those who would have been accepted in a pure meritocracy. I would tend to argue for a financial system, which uplifts students who have had to overcome financial barriers regardless of their background, without necessarily banning racial considerations for those who have faced discrimination in their lives. I would also argue that a meritocracy doesn’t take into account the unequal footing students start on, and thus, doesn’t pick out the smartest or most ambitious students as well as a holistic system does.
@@gustavot4645 Speaking of unequal footing, can you speak about the conditions and level of discriminations first generation Asian-Americans endured to give their children the success later on? Because their parents endured and worked hard, now their children should be punished for it? You act like the first Asian immigrants to the U.S were welcomed with opened arms.
@@gustavot4645 You may delude yourself about your merit, but it didn't do a damn thing when racism played a part however small. When racist affirmative action is at play, EVERY black and hispanic person got in through purely due to their race, because the stench of racism infected on every level.
@@sillasaram9121 lmfao I don’t think you read my comment at all-you didn’t respond to a single argument I made…
anyways i don’t think it’s worth having an intellectual discussion with someone who makes such asinine and racist arguments-have fun getting triggered at a UA-cam comments section;)
The law says if the school is federally funded, it cannot discriminate based on race, whether blacks, Hispanics, Asians or Whites. Pretty straight forward. The guys talks a lot without saying anything sensical.
From personal experience. I am a recipient of reverse racism. my best friend and I had the same GPA on graduation from high school. She was black, I was white. Guess who was the one encouraged and helped to go to UC Berkeley? Not me, though our household incomes were similar.
There is no "reverse racism". If there is any discrimination based on race it is just racism, Black, White, Asian, any race or ethnicity.
Nobody believes your story
@@larrymann803 Call me Nobody then because as a former Fed, i know for a fact, that Race plays into the hiring and acceptance game with the Fed. We had to Hire unqualified Applicants based on Race and quotas.
Frankly, the way UCB is today, you dodged a bullet. If you'd gone there, you'd have been fed a constant stream of racist guilt-peddling against you just because you're white.
"Reverse racism" is not a thing. Racism is not white people discriminating other races. Racism is one race discriminating another different race. Discrimination against white people is racism, not "reverse" racism.
NO ON AFFIRMATIVE ACTION!!!! PERIOD!!!!!!. Admission should be base on the good grades and excellent merits of all Students. Race or focus on particular Group should not be even discussed on every application. Each student should be able to provide evidence of their hard work at school to be deemed acceptable to any University. Period!!!!!!
This judge is one of the smartest among them.
The judge was raised in and continues to be part of a cult. She has no business on the court and her nomination broke court precedent as established by the GOP.
@@carlfaucher1543 I couldn't care less about what family this judge was from or what school she went to or who nominated her. Her words were concise, logical, and cut through.
@@clan8068 Speaking of words, she also purged herself during her nomination.
@@carlfaucher1543 I have no idea what you're talking about. It seems you're trying to discredit this judge. But the judge isn't trying to make the audience believe what she says. She's pointing out the flaws in the defendant reasoning ability and she's successful in that.
@@emmettkeyser1110 That, in her opinion, Roe was stare decisis.
I was in high school in the late 1980's. One day, in tenth grade English class one of the students asked the teacher which college he graduated from. The teacher said Harvard. Jaws dropped and the entire class stopped and looked at him for about 10 seconds. They were awestruck.
That's what Harvard meant back then. Not now. Not anymore.
Unfortunately, what Harvard means now depends on the race of the alumnus. Asian? More impressive than ever. White? Rich parents. Black? _Personality_
i mean, what did it really mean back then if he was teaching HS on a Harvard degree 😂
Are you sure? May be he said Howard.
Whatever happened to admission preference by merit?
THAT"S RACIST!!!
There’s no merit to that approach...
Have you seen their sat scores
The democrats happed
@@erasmogonzales7428 you mean the conservatives didn’t ban black people from their colleges 👀
2:08 the loooooong pause is the gentleman realizing how devastating her line is to his case…
Wow, a whole 3-second pause! You're reaching a bit, @Jack Coleman.
@@emmettkeyser1110 Cute comment, but ironically, it's BS itself.
@@BobLbrmn And yet his response is substanceless, vapid, and nothing more than a wordy obfuscation. Jack is exactly right; when you have a long pause followed by an empty and desperate response, what you're truly witnessing is someone who knows their position has been dismantled.
As an atty I genuinely felt terrible for him, even though I strongly disagree with his argument. That pause was BRUTAL. You’re paid to argue something. That doesn’t mean you necessarily believe what you are arguing. He panicked realizing he couldn’t support the argument. Worst position to be in. Silver lining I’m sure he was paid well lol
If they want to make things "fair" in order to help underprivileged people get ahead, then the measurement should be based on family income, not race. There are rich and poor people of all races.
Fun fact: 60% of students at the top 20 American universities, have parents in the economic top 1%. If you look at IQ dispersal among various groups, lot of smart people in the top 1%. But, but, but. But based on academic ability and IQ, there should be around 3% of people at elite top 20 American universities, with parents in the economic top 1%. The system is rigged, based on class, far more than race. It's nepotism. Their kids get elite jobs. It's the 1%, rigging things, for their kids, many of whom are spectacularly unimpressive. Those unimpressive people go on to elite positions, run the country. No wonder we're in trouble. Harvard is a big con job.
@@TimBitts649where did you get those statistics ?
The 2/3rds that loved their diverse educational experience at Harvard is cute. You know who doesn’t feel that way? The thousands of other qualified applicants that weren’t granted the opportunity to experience their glorious diversity. The policy is racist. I know from experience as the student representative to my medical school admission committee in the early 90s.
affirmative action is just another loophole to do whatever the school wants. just like mlk said... it's the content of their character, not the color of the skin.
Bah, we all know what's going on here, they're just afraid to say it.
Notice how the lawyers parse every word. It ought to be such a simple matter to END Driscriminaion on all fronts except academic merit.
They discriminate against non-leftists. That’s what really needs investigating. What is Harvard’s Republican acceptance rate?
I am over 50 years old, Harvard once meant the top for academics, but not anymore, SAD!
The Marxist Dems have destroyed American education - over 50yrs.
They identify as Excellent
You're the expert!
Harvard is a woke factory
Sadly our society has now gone from trying to raise everyone to do their best to bringing everyone down to match the lower scales of achievement. It’s the trophy for everyone generation fulfilled. It’s not only universities but everything. We have sadly dumbed down our public because we no longer require the best for them. You can now get a trophy in life for everything.
It's amazing listening to the rationalization of racism. Mind boggling how deep the grift goes.
If race is 1 of many many factors, then removing it won’t impact anything.
You know, it's not the roll of educators to social engineer society. It's to educate individuals.
"We are taking race into account". RACIST< RACIST< RACIST. Next question.
Sounds just like the 50s and 60s arguments for segregation "Students like the admissions policy"
Wow good shit.
And Thomas made that exact point and he Lived in Segregated Georgia.
@@TightwadTodd Thomas is an American Treasure.
Just like MLK
Of course they'd like it, they benefited from it
Weren't we through with discrimination based on race? Apparently not since these days in the workforce, the only thing that matters is the color of your skin and sexuality rather than if you can actually do the damn job.
We actually treated blacks as a different nationality, somewhat like the British treated the Irish, both in the South and North. This despite the language of the 14th Amendment.
Wonder if all these highly educated people can pay their own student loans after graduating?
Ever look at a Harvard application? Ultra prominent (pretty much the very first thing asked on the application) is race, and nationality. I know, because when Obama became the dem candidate, some people (100% on the Right) were asking, "how did a dope smoking slacker (HIS own description of himself...before he ran for office), with average (at best) grades, and ZERO extra curricular activities get into the most competitive (for applicants), most prestigious university in the world? Well....the very first question Harvard wanted to know was "nationality." Next came race. And, there is a whole paragraph right on the application explaining that Harvard is committed to diversity and having students from around the world as students. Obama was the ultimate diversity box check for Harvard---a black....from AFRICA. Kenya. No one ever saw his Harvard application. It became one of America's most closely guarded secrets. An average student with zero scholastic achievements (the guy belonged to no clubs in school whatsoever) isn't EVER going to get into Harvard. Not even a mere "African American" one. There are plenty of black applicants to choose from. But...an applicant from (born in) severely underrepresented Africa was hugely appealing to diversity obsessed Harvard university. There is no way....NO....WAY....a guy with his scholastic record gets into Harvard as just an "African American" applicant. Check out the application for yourself. If they haven't changed it, Race and country are VERY prominent application lines.
This lawyer is so painful to listen to. They need someone smart, like Camille.
That is because he is lying
@@sabejreid2072 He could have just said something like "my school, my rules". That would have been more convincing.
I think the problem is not the lawyer, but the indefensible position.
@@crusherven How was that indefensible? He could say "The school can do what they think is for their best interest as they are private organizations"
@@clan8068 Because even private organizations can't discriminate on the basis of race.
"And 70% said that Harvard's experience had lead them to seriously question or rethink their beliefs about a race or ethnic group different than their own."
That question seems carefully crafted to get as many yes answers as possible. Are they referring to beliefs about the timeline of Native American migration to the Americas from Asia? Or are they referring to beliefs about how often people in modern Japan eat sushi?
When I first meet someone of another race, I generally assume that they're human just like me, and that their race tells me essentially nothing about them, except possibly their tolerance for very high or very low levels of sunlight, which rarely matters. But would a Harvard experience cause me to rethink that belief, and to instead make other assumptions about them solely on the basis of their race?
I know my opinion doesn't count for much but here it is. When a person is applying for a job or to a university the only thing that should be considered is the person's ability to do the job or have the capacity to be able to benefit from the universities offerings. The race or ethnicity is not and should not have any bearing on the person's acceptance in either case. Besides it is unconstitutional and against the law.
The problem is when you have 60,000 applicants and 13,000 positions you're going to have a lot of people who have mastered all relevant tasks and demonstrate perfect performance at all relative aptitudes. That being the case what do you do then to make a fair choice?
@@jayarrbobdobbs Gimme a break. No 2 people are exactly alike unless they happen to be identical twins, and I'm not sure they're even exactly alike. Read the applications thoroughly. Review the academic records thoroughly. Find the hidden stuff that differentiates one candidate from another and makes one candidate the better choice. Then stack the applications from top qualified to 13,000th qualified.. Take the first 13,000.
@@cats0182 out of 60,000 yeah there are going to be tens of thousands who made it their life mission to get admitted into an ivy and their applications are going to basically be identical.
@@jayarrbobdobbs Would you believe this if racism didn't benefit you? I doubt it.
@@jayarrbobdobbs should that be the case and everyone who has applied rates the same or the top 20,000 are equal in eligibility. You put the names in the proverbial hat and draw the winners. Obviously this would be done like a lottery drawing but the point is that is the fairest way. Unless of course the university wants to increase the levels of students enrolled there.
Of course you are going to achieve your goals. If you exclude races and ask these seniors these questions. Before they receive their final grades.
I’d rather my heart surgeon be a great surgeon with a crappy personality than a crappy surgeon with a great personality!
I prefer my presidents that way too i.e. the last guy.
Sadly, if your heart surgeon were a 'favored' minority with a great personality who graduated from Harvard, your immediate thought would be that s/he is unqualified to perform your surgery. And if your heart surgeon were an Asian with a crap personality who graduated from Harvard, your immediate thought would be that s/he is supremely qualified to perform your surgery because s/he was so stratospherically intelligent that even Harvard couldn't turn her/him down. Discrimination breeds mistrust.
The problem lies in the culture, more specifically, what is valued in the home by the mother and father. By the time one reaches college age, the foundation is laid.
Question: If Harvard's consideration of RACE in admissions was barred as illegal by SCOTUS, how many blacks would be admitted each year?
Question: What is the average SAT scores of Blacks as opposed to Asian students?
Asians average 767/800 per section of the SAT’s. Blacks average 704/800.
Answer is that Blacks and Latino students get triple digit bonuses to their SAT scores and Asians have a triple digit negative modifier to their SAT scores. This leads to people who have no business attending college getting admitted and taking on tons of unnecessary debt as a result. The overall caliber of a student graduating today is fucking pathetic and a joke. This is what affirmative action gets you, people who are idiots being put in positions of power. The current diversity hire on SCOTUS is showing just how stupid she really is trying to insert race into EVERY FUCKING CASE and she rambles like an idiot. Her word count on opinions, since she joined, has DWARFED all the other Justices that have been on the court combined.
@@esquire9445 now deduct the points added to blk scores
@@a.d.4536 I think those numbers are prior to modifications. Keep in mind each section of sats is worth 800. So those numbers are averages.
Why is this the Asians fault?
If Harvard wanted to defend the way they recruit, then you would have to also propose that all of those applicants are on an equal academic level, which I somehow doubt would be true. Therefore, they score other factors over academics or merit. I hope people recognize how bad this is.
All I hear is I had a c average in high school and I got into Harvard because I wasn't asian or white.
Racism. Discrimination. Dress it up how you like.
Class action lawsuits against Harvard University for $100-Billion?
Why did I read this in an evil megalomaniac voice, while picturing someone petting a cat? 🤣🤦♀️ I may need help!
The Constitution explicitly forbids racial (and sex) discrimination. Affirmative Action is, and has always been, completely unConstitutional.
I didn't learn too much from other students no matter how diverse, but from good teachers. The students who get hurt most from racial admissions are those who cant do the work. I saw it at Berkeley.
My guess is that the black students self-segregated.
Next up is they will water down the work to make their graduation numbers look diverse
To take affirmative action into academia and vocation is to validate racism and inferiority!
Boy she got him cold
Honestly, I loathe the Marxists
It seems to me, that Harvard wants to argue for an engineered desired outcome of consensus, instead of vigorous debate. Why not use a lottery instead of artificial qualifications?
Why are we so obsessed with race and diversity?
We have a separate admission process for each race but don't worry we will apply race-neutral criteria equally
Fighting racism with racism for 50 years.
I can be a raciest, BUT YOU CANNOT!
Harvard desperately called me to ask if "I mind rooming with a black girl", but they never called her, a fact I had to extract from them. I barely made it through the year, I was so incensed. She, by the way, was a class act. Harvard was jive. I ended up in New York at Cooper Union there, much better.
Wow. Speaks volumes about the institution.
I hope my daughter grows up to be as brilliant (or more) as ACB. What a wonderful role model and judge.
Diversity might be reality but it’s not necessarily a strength. It’s usually in fact a challenge. It’s not wise to increase the diversity at this point
All I hear is a person trying to hang onto a bunch of high paying administrative jobs that have already outlived their usefulness and now are nothing but racial divisions.
Harvard made the Unabomber sooooo how valuable is that “education”.
Do your research on him.
@@jayfinn6698 dr Henry Murray is an interesting subject indeed.
@@mikeallen4210 indeed
@@jayfinn6698 Tom O’Neal wrote Chaos which should be a must read. Very similar experiments.
@@mikeallen4210 rabbit hole
This is sickening to listen to. He sounds exactly like he's a fanatic in charge of an eugenics programme, or (at best) a Victorian phrenologist. He's solidifying the status of race as an immutable characteristic, that he can play with to produce results that affirm his beliefs.
They should just be honest and admit they are now discriminating against a different group of students, but that discrimination is needed so they can achieve equity in the class - not the best qualified or most likely to complete the program or to produce the best professional possible - but just to have some students of every race, regardless of qualifications, for equity. Everyone knows that is what they are doing, why not just admit it and be done with it. A Harvard degree no longer means the best of, like it used to - now it just means, good connections, tons of money or a quota -- so sad.
The comparison with the Jews cannot be avoided. The Jews were kept out because so many of them were as students superior to other ethnic groups.
"Diversative" is justifying racism choices by racist people; "not equality" in their choices of whom gets to get into their education system !...
Some famous grads of Harvard do not even know the definition of a woman.🤣
Whoever is speaking on Harvard’s behalf is great at his job. His point was perfectly articulated.
Harvard: "Many, many, many tips... many, many, many dimensions... for diversity... through engineering race neutral alternatives... but we're not there yet." Hmmm? What an interesting way to describe racial discrimination.
Diversity is a loaded term now.
All I heard him say is that he's super racist.
“Mr. WAXMAN.”
Atty WAXMAN is doing a great job arguing for race-based admissions.
When people employ those with a Harvard degree they want the prestige (high SAT scores) not the diversity. You want to hire based on diversity hire someone who graduated from a community college.
They're matriculating a class that is diverse along a wide range of superficial criteria one of which is not political ideology.
How to choose your pawns for elitism which is how they are using it.
It's called indoctrination correct.
The justices all sound human. I always thought it would in high fluting legalese way way way beyond my low/uninitiated ability to understand. How shocking and refreshing.
So, the best applicants that can teach each other, not the best qualified or academic highest score?
Cardinal Newman had this take on that: the best college was not the one with the best faculty but the one with the smartest kids because they could teach one another. As in athletics, you learn best by playing with the best.
Remember this: Medical schools are feverishly "bean counting" in an effort to achieve "diversity". But, is this effort producing the best candidates to become doctors? Who got left in the dust? Did their academic records indicate that they'd be better doctors than the ones that were chosen? When I seek healthcare, I don't care about race, religion, ethnicity, etc. I do care that the healthcare professional I'm seeing is the best at diagnosing what's wrong and coming up with a solution.
Remember, they just canned the professor who literally wrote the text for organic chemistry, because students complained it was too difficult 😑 you're training for a medical career ninny, it's not supposed to be easy!
Actually, Affirmative Action makes it easier to select the best doctors. If a white male graduates in the top of his class, you know he earned it. That's the doctor I want.
"It's just one among many!"
(But it is the only one we use, actually.)
Is there a comment that isn't censored?
You must not being advocating for the approved thought.
Race is not a qualification of excellence . "1984" is not a instruction manual
Harvard is diverse😂😂😂
Meritocracy is thrown out the window these days. If I go to a college graduate to hire, work with or depend on their expertise, I would like to have the confidence in their advice or knowledge. Affirmative action only continues the discrimination when these ethnic graduates seek jobs or how they're treated by coworkers. The confidence in their ability isn't there. They have to prove they graduated on merit not preferential treatment. There should be a better way of leveling the admissions based on academic performanc by putting money on ensuring that all levels of schools have the same standards of academic expectations.
Because 'benefitting' is a very low standard with a myriad of possible perspectives and valuations of worth ranging from extraneous; but, possibly useful to immensely valuable, did anyone ask these students to quantify how they benefitted?
What is the average SAT of students admitted based on affirmative action? It seems a disservice to those who do have stellar SAT scores.
In the long run it hurts us as a society because we aren't educating those who earned it and have the knowledge, and are educating those simply because of their race.
UNBELIEVABLE !! Religion is one of the acceptance criteria????? Since WHEN is that not religious discrimination??? I can't even believe my ears. This lawyer needs to have his head examined, as well as the whole harvard admissions department needs to hit the dumpster.
Years ago, Father Andrew Greeley more or less got cancelled because he did a study of ethnic groups with different religious leanings. He rated them for academic performance. Jews were on top, Irish Catholics were second and WASPS of different groups and Catholics of the different groups were more or less down the list. Blacks were at the bottom.
If allowed, they will NEVER terminate this.
No end point. Racial favoritism as a permanent facet of our society.
I still want him to define "diversity".
I'll give you a hint about how corporations and universities define diversity as a means of pushing for "equitable" racial distribution.. If you have a group of four people, an asian, a black, a latino, and an arab. You then add a White man to this group, it is now less diverse than it was before adding said White man.
@@Canceriantigershark LOL That's a good one.
HARVARD IS NO LONGER A EXALENT EDUCATION IS A NON MERIT BASED EDUCATION AND IT SHOWS!
Discrimination is discrimination if done by individuals or government! Both violate the equal treatment clause of the Constitution. Why are they allowed to do that which companies can't or citizens can't do? Wrong is always wrong, regardless who does it!
It’s amazing how wonderful they think they are when it’s obvious how corrupt they are.😢💔
Harvard became a big disappointment they should be ashamed of themselves, I don’t want my daughters to go there.
All BS, follow the constitution. Everyone gets equal opportunity.
WHEN IS THE ENDPOINT?? Did he ever answer the question?
No because there isn't one. It's open-ended to them just like they want it to be. Look at how they still complain about the injustices of slavery that was ended over 150 years ago. Then add the civil rights acts of the 1960s (almost 60 years ago) and you still hear and see them complaining about racism today. It's a never ending cycle that they want to perpetuate for eternity. No matter what they get they will never be satisfied and just demand more.
The response to her quesiton about an end point sounded like double-talk to me.
Originalism works for the second amendment, but not for allowing discrimination?
This issue will never end. One crop of students either drop out or graduate and a new crop of unmerited students vie for the spots. It can’t be solved from the university side , but must start at home and the lower educational end. The brightest and best duking it out in the ring of their hard work, and study achievements. If placement outcomes are our goals then as observed actual discriminatory policies will always prevail with each new semester.
If race has no bearing on intelligence or competence why is it a determinant for admission? The only rationale for using race would be to have a variety of skin colors in a graduating class. A rather silly reason. I do believe giving preference to someone coming from a lower socioeconomic situation, assuming all other things being equal would be a good thing.
What starts out here (America) as a mass movement ends up as a racket, a cult, or a corporation.
-Eric Hoffer, The Temper of Our Time (1967)
No program of discrimination will heal the cultural problems that exist.
He started to say they were politically diverse but stopped short. I wonder how many conservatives are attending Harvard. I’m also willing to bet the number of Christians attending Harvard is also dropping.