Your experience with trying to configure it is something I've seen a lot - folks already familiar with a technical discipline tend to sort of clump together and as the skills and technologies within that domain elevate, entry becomes harder - everyone who knows it already, doesn't need it explained (and doesn't necessarily want to explain it, or worse, imagines it should be obvious). Anyone who needs it explained doesn't know where to even start.
@@clairemckenna4445 not. Me i fucking adore my Model F. Accidentaly ordered it with nimpad except of the right keys... but havent reprogrammed it becsus eof laziness. When I take the time I'll see how much of a pain it is. I'll go 100% QMK no VIA too
I Didn't realize that QMK could be considered a down side. I love that it uses QMK. I Guess being a programmer makes it easy to get out of touch with what most people think is convenient.
@@kyle8952 A lot of people want to program a keyboard. A lot of people want that kind of customizability and control. And a lot of people who don't care also don't care about mechanical keyboards and might as well pick up a $10 rubber dome from walmart. So I think you'll find that the intersection of mechanical keyboard enthusiasts and people who want to program their keyboard is pretty large.
Funnily enough, I made my own firmware for this keyboard because as a programmer I felt that the QMK was not as easily hackable as I would have liked: I prefer writing C code to make my own macros and to borrow Apple's USB vendor id for the actual Fn key.
(Ok, to be fair, I actually implemented the Apple's Fn key on top of QMK as well, but I kind of wanted to write my own capsense calibration and USB HID code, don't judge me! =)
Have you received your board yet, and if so, how long did it take to ship? I ordered mine and it said it can take about 1-4 weeks, but was curious if there’s an average between that timeframe. Thanks!
@@TeamMavik Only took about 2 weeks. The numpad on mine doesn't completely work right. Some of the numbers either don't respond or register as both that number and an adjacent number. Apparently I may need to physically troubleshoot the springs and whatnot which Joe has extensive documentation on. I just left it alone in the past month that I've been using the board. Reseating didn't work so I'll probably have to dig deeper.
@@pip5528 Thanks for the response! Yeah, unfortunately, I've heard buckling spring keyboards can have issues like these during shipping. That's just the nature of the beast, I suppose. Hopefully you're enjoying it otherwise. The only other buckling spring keyboard I have is a new Model M from Unicomp which thankfully didn't have any issues, so I'm kind of a novice when it comes to troubleshooting. I hope Joe's documentation guides you in the right direction and you're able to get it fixed. If that still doesn't help, it might also be a good idea to post a thread on geekhack since I'm sure a lot of users there have had to troubleshoot Model Fs and Model Ms before. P.S. Love your profile picture. I replaced the Windows logo on the media keys with Tux on my new Model M since I daily drive Mint on my work rig.
Amazing review and extremely honest. Appreciate the attention to the software as usual - so many reviews just gloss over the drivers or exclaim "it works with a little effort".
QMK is the community favorite, far more preferred compared to proprietary software. The fact that it's open-sourced means your keyboard's firmware will be supported and updated as long as the community exists. Also the ability to modify your own codes means you're free from vendor lock-in.
QMK is great, but it definitely makes sense for a keyboard seller to preflash their controllers with via enabled. With the right know how, you can do a ton of stuff with QMK, but for a keyboard that you're not building from scratch and procuring your own controllers for, it's not very sensible to expect all users to compile their own firmware to flash to the board. You can have a board with QMK firmware that is a very simple user experience right out of the box, but it requires a bit of effort on the seller's end to at least properly compile and flash some firmware onto the board first. People struggling with via and finding out it's because it's plugged into a USB hub is relatively common and feels like it should probably be mentioned for new users as well.
22:28 The reason why the Num Lock is essential is for those legacy Alt+Numpad key sequences, such as Alt+155 = ¢ key and so on. Most condensed laptop keyboards will map the numeric keypad keys somewhere on the right side of the main keyboard, for instance.
I think one could configure a layer which uses the number row as those keys, then map that "Num Lock" key to "Fn" instead. I don't recall if it is necessary to use the numpad or not to enter those sequences. IMHO, the keyboard is more usable with the HHKB-style split right shift, and I can't imagine anyone finding that intrusive. After all, does anyone actually press the rightmost quarter of the right shift key? I would have paid more for an f107 reproduction, also--despite my being on a tight budget by any measure. I simply don't understand the present-day, widespread infatuation with small keyboards. The thing is already a boat anchor. I can't even slide it around on my desk; it must be lifted and placed.
what id like is for them to release a keyboard with modern full sized model m style layout but with these switches and the rest. then I could actually use it.
it's obviously 2 years later, but the recommended programming program is now Vial, which is excellent. flashing it was much simpler than using QMK for me, so it might be worth checking out if you ever end up using this keyboard again.
That software gave me flashbacks to the Kazzo NES cart reader (which in it's defense required obscure knowledge of NES memory mappers for specific carts to use and was the definition of a niche product).
I picked up one of these a few months ago and would agree with most of this video. Getting the keycaps in properly and flashing are a bit of a headache, but once you have everything set up the keyboard is a dream to type on. I do recommend buying the repair kit and some extra/alternative keycap bundles for extra customization and maintenance. That being said, it can't be stressed enough that this is not a pick up and play keyboard; I had an inkling but it wasn't until I watched through the introduction/setup video that I really realized how involved I would need to be with the keyboard to get the most out it.
well now I have a new software project to work on once I get my model f in :-) Definitely going to try to automate the QMK update with some sort of WebKit GUI.
My F77 finally arrived last week and I have been completely blown away by it. The layout is absolutely perfect, while the switch feel is just amazing! I did have an issue with the G key (which seemed to be permanently pressed). Thankfully, I managed to fix this by pulling the spring up and allowing it to snap back. I think my only complaint is the lack of a CAPS LOCK LED, however as the six-pin header on the controller will allow a LOCK LED to be fitted, at some point I may look at a home-brew solution here. Then again - I might not.
I just got my F62s yesterday after ordering them last year. I had a bit of trouble with the stabilisers at first until I really pressed them in, then it was all okay. I'm absolutely in love with it already. I'm hoping I can get a couple of F77s (one for home use and another for work use, especially the latter where having numpad is convenient) before the run is completely over. I honestly surprised the run is still going, such a shame that production won't be forever though. This thing is the real deal.
Holy shit you just saved my life. Had mine for 5 months and the keys with rods stabilizers all felt a bit wrong. After reading your comment I went and pushed harder on them with a screwdriver and now all the keys feels just right
Thanks for another excellent keyboard review, Thomas. Keys sound authentic, as the banking keyboards always seemed to me to have a deader sound than the IBM PC and 3270 model F keyboards. I used to program the 4704 banking systems many years ago, and there was never that high pitched spring noise you get in your reconditioned keyboard. Managed to get my hands on a "Pingmaster" a couple of years ago, but it obviously never matched the Model Fs I have missed for decades. Been checking in on this project for a long time and am so happy this has finally shipped.
@ModelFkeyboards.com - Brand New Model F Buckling Spring Keyboards The 4700s were usually menu based programs designed for smaller screens but similar to what might be seen on 3278 terminals linked to a mainframe. The distributed processing of the 4700 meant that transactions could be partially processed locally and then sent in batches for mainframe processing. The hardware was very reliable, with the most common points of failure being the 4701 5 1/2" floppy drives due to dust and dirt (during a reboot after a power outage), or the display unit. Keyboards were reliable and robust and in my experience front line staff only ever used the 50 key model 100. Usage and key functions tended to be similar to bespoke POS keyboards. The 4704 model 100 keyboard layout was related to the previous generation banking terminal 3604 model 1 keyboard with an extra column of keys on the RHS block, which goes some way towards explaining the unusual format. If there ever were any keyboard issues, a robust upside down tap on the desk sorted things out. I only saw the model 300 and 400 keyboards a few times. The 4700s were programmed in assembler. All these banking systems were eventually replaced by PC's. I did not work in the US, but over half of all New Zealand bank branches used 4700s at one stage. Lloyds bank in the UK used these in the late 1980s. Tellers used these terminals to process almost all front of house banking transactions. I still remember my sorrow at having to bin my trusty old AT format model F keyboard and having to use a crappy plastic model M.
QMK configurator is a decent alternative to VIA. Like Via, you get a GUI for mapping keys, but you have to flash the firmware in afterwards. I'd recommend giving that a go if VIA is not working out for you. I have to hard disagree about QMK being worse than Corsair as at least it's flashed onto the keyboard memory rather than an app running on your PC. Yes, there is a learning curve, but thanks to QMK configurator it has become much more approachable. Some of the more advance stuff aren't available in Config, but what's there is more than enough for most people.
I bought one of these and sold (almost) every other keyboard I owned just because I stopped using them because this thing is just a whole other level of perfection. I got extremely lucky as I bought it in January of 2021 and got it in Febuary (recieved it without caps, but I ordered them for later) Also, I use Leximark keycaps on mine, and I noticed the spacebar doesn't rattle with Leximark caps.
Err... I ordered mine in 2016 and paid for the low serial option, and should only just now be getting it tomorrow. Wtf. Lol. But I suppose it's likely due to my exact configuration having not been made available
What an absolute beast. I might get one but I really need a new desk for it hahaha Great, fun and VERY informative video! :) And props to the guy who built this, I usually expect this repros to be very disappointing but beating IBM in their own game, man, noice
Me too. I must be one of the 'major tech nerds' because I didn't find it to be a big deal at all. And QMK opens up so many possibilities beyond just simple key remapping! Big fan.
@@alborisninvel3714 It's just not user friendly and has a barrier to entry before one is proficient in using it. Lot of great features no one can deny that, just could be more straight forward to use.
QMK is really not that hard to use, QMK config and QMK Toolbox make it rather easy to flash the layout you want. Any difficulty would simply be from the failure of the vendor/designer to provide proper documentation.
In the computer museum of my hometown we have an original 1981-issue IBM PC with a Model F keyboard. As visitors are encouraged to test the machines on display, I once told some visitor to take the keyboard into his hands. He was quite impressed by the enormous weight of the Model F!!
Having dealt a lot with qmk, can confirm, it's a whole thing. But once the ball gets rolling, it's pretty good, and the guides are continuing to get better over time, slowly...
14:11 You can clearly hear that in the old keyboard keys metal inside switch is not hitting anything as upper limit. While metal inside switches at new keyboard hit some firm limit and do not have that "gong"-u "bell"-u sound that is heard as high note. Wonderfull keyboards, thank You. Best Regards
Can totally get behind you on QMK, I literally had to find a video that had step-by-step instructions on how to flash firmwares to even understand what the fuck was going on.
Not to brag, but I'd never programmed a keyboard in my life and reprogrammed my NMF F77 first try. Based on others' horror stories, I must have gotten lucky to find the right information the first time. Sure, it's harder than it should be. I think if it had been beta tested with a small particular group, it'd have been shipped with QMK/Via stock. Once you're running Via, besides the USB hub issue you ran into (why didn't my hub have this issue?) it's a solid 7/10 on the programmability UX. edit: Oh, I forgot - this typed on a NMF F77.
I probably would've bought one of these if they did at least a F107. It's a shame really. I'm just a big keyboard kind of guy. I use a Unicomp M122 on my main machine. Great keyboard.
Same. It's such a great idea, and I'm baffled as to why they chose such unusual layouts. I would have bought a 101- or 122-key version, but the layouts that they offered are useless to me.
@@Alpha8713 So I believe his logic was that the F62 and F77 are extremely rare keyboards. So he wanted to reproduce those two model F's, since they're so uncommon. And people can now sort of complete their collection of model F's, if they wanted to. I hate this logic, given that some of us don't own any model F's at all.
@@copper4eva Interesting. That kind of makes sense for keyboard collectors. But there is a big market out there for people like me who don't collect keyboards, but who value good ones. I would pay $400 for a high-quality keyboard that is actually useful to me. Original model Fs have a great feel, but the 88-key layout is awful. As are the F62 and F77. An AT101 layout with model F switches would actually be useful to me, and I would order one immediately, if given the chance. (I'd actually prefer the AT101 version with the control and caps lock key positions swapped, but I can live without that).
Thank you for another incredible video, this one on my favorite posession. I own two different varieties, as these will only be made in two rounds. Ever, apparently. It's so hard to describe exactly how irreplaceable this typing experience is, you have captured it perfectly.
It's a shame: a couple of years ago was up in Rochester and IBM is basically gone. Rumor at that time was less than 1000 IBMers were left and most of the vast main building is leased out to local small businesses. And, the AS/400 moniker is long gone from the sign by Rt-52.
@@KangoV We could use some more people to work *on* them. 🤣Unfortunately working *in* them, at least ours, is not particularly user friendly. Thankfully I'm working more on the SQL server now than doing manual work in the system.
I lol'd so hard at the QMK frustrations, as they basically mirrored my own when I was learning to use it. In fairness, once you get to grips with it it's not too bad, but VIA should be better at being a user-friendly front end.
I kinda don't understand why it's so hard to use QMK. Don't you just have to create your keymap on the config website, wait for it to compile then download the firmware. Then on your computer, reset the keyboard, choose the firmware file and click flash right? I mean it's still simpler than Razer Synapse
@ModelFkeyboards.com - Brand New Model F Buckling Spring Keyboards I've seen these mods. It's not an actual true trackpoint though. More like a track stick, or pointing stick. Still better than nothing admittedly though.
If I didn't already own a "Model F AT" that I saved from being thrown into a landfill over 20 years ago, then I would have bought one. Having the AT version really helps using it with modern hardware since PS/2 connectors still are common.
I have a Model F77 just like this except ANSI, and I use it far more than my F AT. When typing plaintext though I do prefer the F AT just for nostalgia factor.
I kind of split the difference in buying one of these and instead bought an old F122, but also brand new buckling springs to install from this reproduction run. Very early on, he was offering just the springs and paddles at a very reasonable price, like 25 cents each, and I grabbed them before the prices went up. I feel like this was the best of both worlds, because the 122 has an almost modern layout. I'm not sure how to compare the old switches with the new, because my F122 was very heavily used. Keys that got more use had a noticeably lighter feel than keys that had less use, so it wasn't apples to apples. After replacement, it felt a little bit heavier, ever so slightly less crisp, but also much more even. I think I preferred the old springs ever so slightly, but it's hard to tell how much that came down to manufacturing differences and how much was just break in of the new switches. I kept the old ones just in case I ever want to switch back.
While I usually agree with Chyros' review 100%, this time I don't completely agree, specifically about QMK. I've also received my F77 recently, and while I agree that QMK on the keyboard is really poorly configured from the manufacturer. It did took me almost an hour to figure out all the "traps" as well, even though I've used QMK before on several of my keyboards. But that not the fault of QMK or VIA. It's just poorly configured for this particular keyboard. When it's setup correctly as in many other customs keyboard, you can just run VIA and change the keys. No flashing or documentation needed. So, I think it's a bit unfair to say that QMK at fault for the frustration. QMK is an open source software with some amazing people behind it. The custom keyboard community really owe it to these guys for QMK as pretty much all custom keyboard uses it. At least I personally really appreciate the all the work that went into QMK. Without a powerful and open source software like QMK, many keyboard and pcb designers would've had a hard time creating their own firmware and all of us keyboard enthusiast will have to deal with all kinds of custom firmware that will most likely be a lot worse than QMK.
I have this exact version of the new kb but I’m still waiting for the solenoid and controller for that extra old-school IBM kachunk kachunk experience.
@Mr. Magnificent The problem would be getting it to the office. This thing is so heavy that it is barely portable LOL! Like really heavy, not even joking.
QMK is somewhat annoying with things that aren't properly supported. All of my experience with it has been decent, plus there is an online configuration tool. I think implementation is more the problem than QMK itself. I feel like if a dumbass like me can make it work it should be foolproof enough
One thing to consider though is, that the price isnt 400 dollars to your doorstep. Shipping to EU costs 60 dollars and then in EU you need to pay import tax. So getting this board would roughly around 600 dollars all in all at my doorstep. 400 Dollars is kind of in line with an entry level custom mechanical keyboard with good switches and decent keycaps, but many of those have far cheaper shipping options and sometimes with local vendors no tax.
I ordered an F77 with ISO-DE keycaps back in March 2018, and it just arrived yesterday, on April 29, 2022. If there are any other ISO-DE users, why not leave me a comment? When did you get your new Model F keyboard?
I thought I had reached my End Game with a KBDfans KBD67, split spacebar layout, Kailh Box Burnt Orange switches, PMK G20 keycaps. I couldn’t think of any way to improve it, short of developing my own custom PCB or hand-wired layout from scratch. Then, a couple of days ago, my System76 Launch keyboard arrived. It’s almost like they worked down my wish list of features I wanted in a keyboard, plus a few I hadn’t even thought of (like the USB hub and the magnetic stand). And by the way. . . The Launch is “QMK compatible” but System76 have also created their own graphical program to configure it, and it’s brilliant and super-easy to use. And now it seems, after years of waiting, that my Model F may finally show up Real Soon Now. And it’s an open question which one of these three I’ll end up using long-term. Which one will be the real top of the pyramid, I wonder?
@@prokopf-9332 I'm back to the split-spacebar KBD67, now with fresh GMK keycaps and a matching accessory number pad. System76 Launch is too much hassle to source keycaps for. Also the bottom row is a confused jumble of keys. Model F77 is great in many ways, but becomes (just like the XT) kind of harsh to type on after a while. It's a great key layout, but at the same time I miss my split spacebar, and I would rather the keypad had been on the left side. I think the only way I'm ever going to supersede my DZ60s and KBD67 is if I design my own custom layout and have it produced. Which I am tempted to do, but also is kind of hard to justify.
@@Zobeid Thanks for the reply! Im currently kinda satisfied with my leopold 660, ordered a Keychron Q1 and maaaybe will get a kbd67 as well. I was kind of contemplating this board, but for this price this would need to be perfcet as a daily driver, and not just a rotational thing. And it doesnt seem like the keyfeel is so utterly amazing that it goes above all other means of practicability. Some reviews make you think that, thats why i thought about it. But yeah its just too much for me i think.
I don't really consider using weights "cheating." It's no different, in my opinion, than making the case itself extremely heavy. Realistically, when is your keyboard going to be exposed to enough force that a zinc alloy construction is going to be what saves it? The thing sits on your desk all day, and if you travel with it, it's going in a case. What it's made of is a matter of preference regarding essentially just weight and/or sound, in which case a weighted insert is going to do the same job. I actually prefer plastic cases most of the time (when they're well made like one from KBDFans), because plastic has a lower resonant frequency and doesn't ping with every keypress out of the box.
Huh, I was convinced I had already watched this but apparently either I didn't or YT ate my like. It would be nice to see a review of the modern layout variant that came out some time ago, I almost got that one recently before opting for something more affordable.
Completely agree with the QMK statement. It's soo hard to use. I can't believe someone made the QMK software and thought "yep, this is a great user friendly software".
Qmk is firmware for a microcontroller. It's so hard to use because you are configuring the firmware yourself, in a very low level manner. There are more user friendly ways of configuring qmk, with a graphical user interface for example. Qmk is also compatible with many different microcontrollers, keyboard layouts, and other things. You have to tell qmk what keyboard layout you are using for example, because it does not know what kind of keyboard you have. I don't think qmk is meant to be for end users per se. When I change things in qmk, I treat it more like (re)programming my keyboard rather than quickly changing a hotkey in the Razor application for example. I think that's where the user unfriendliness comes from.
It’s free software maintained by volunteers, many of hours of free labour have gone into it. Just something to consider before you go complaining about how terrible it is…
I've been eyeing some old Soviet boards, but the shipping costs more than the boards and the boards aren't cheap. About $800 combined. That beautiful blue-gray paint reminded me of them. One day.
The first keyboard I remember using when I was a wee little kid was some kind of split keyboard and the arrow keys were oval shaped. It also had a trackpad but my parents didn't hook that up because they preferred using a trackball. My dad even bought a wireless one in modern times
this F77 repo project has really changed my perspective on value for money in this hobby, like seriously how is something like a keycult more expensive than this? the extent to which clout has influenced prices is ridiculous and just too far, this is a better quality board than the vast majority of "high end customs" that earn their price tag from clout and exclusivity, and the fact that its this comparatively affordable really shames these custom companies (and yes I do know the "actual reasons" why keycults and their ilk are so expensive, they're just completely invalid with the existence of something like the F77)
Why shoot your enemies with an AK when you can just cave their skulls in with a Model F
Ammo is too expensive nowadays anyway.
umm... because of range? Model F reproduction -despite its name- lacks the F keys, so it limits the range of usable keys significantly.
@@proCaylak it’s there as a fn layer
@@bryo4321 come on! it's a model F, it shouldn't have been hidden behind a f-n' layer or whatever!
@@proCaylak In fact, by virtue of its name *all* keys should be f-keys!
Your experience with trying to configure it is something I've seen a lot - folks already familiar with a technical discipline tend to sort of clump together and as the skills and technologies within that domain elevate, entry becomes harder - everyone who knows it already, doesn't need it explained (and doesn't necessarily want to explain it, or worse, imagines it should be obvious). Anyone who needs it explained doesn't know where to even start.
I suspect anyone who has one of these has also bought a QMK keyboard
Also the reason why most FOSS projects have terrible UX.
I can't believe that Mr. Barrister John Barosa watches keyboard stuff.
@@CidVeldoril I thought it was John Warosa...
@@clairemckenna4445 not. Me i fucking adore my Model F. Accidentaly ordered it with nimpad except of the right keys... but havent reprogrammed it becsus eof laziness. When I take the time I'll see how much of a pain it is. I'll go 100% QMK no VIA too
6:00 Thank you for that sensible conversion to Russian imperial measurement units!
They just make sense! They're human scale!
As someone who enjoys messing with QMK, I haven’t thought of hacking any governments, I’ll have to give it a try.
I expected a more thorough comparison with the Kalashnikov.
A Kalashnikov may be slightly less noisy.
@@owlstead You mean to tell me they never made an AK-47 with a solenoid?
Hovers over thumbnail on subscriptions page:
"EXCUSE ME???"
Double-take and a half. Followed by maniacal laughing.
Chyrosan is unsettlingly American in this video…
I am? XD
Other people like guns little guy.
Yeah! Give the Russians some credit.
@@j.b.7133 I’m not talking about the guns
@@chunkymilk1288 what are you on about?
I adore the "Models F" pluralisation!
I Didn't realize that QMK could be considered a down side. I love that it uses QMK.
I Guess being a programmer makes it easy to get out of touch with what most people think is convenient.
Yeah, as someone who prefers doing things the programming way, QMK is heaven for me
Nobody wants to "program" a keyboard. We want to plug it in and type.
@@kyle8952 A lot of people want to program a keyboard. A lot of people want that kind of customizability and control.
And a lot of people who don't care also don't care about mechanical keyboards and might as well pick up a $10 rubber dome from walmart.
So I think you'll find that the intersection of mechanical keyboard enthusiasts and people who want to program their keyboard is pretty large.
Funnily enough, I made my own firmware for this keyboard because as a programmer I felt that the QMK was not as easily hackable as I would have liked: I prefer writing C code to make my own macros and to borrow Apple's USB vendor id for the actual Fn key.
(Ok, to be fair, I actually implemented the Apple's Fn key on top of QMK as well, but I kind of wanted to write my own capsense calibration and USB HID code, don't judge me! =)
This has been my dream board for a while now. Modern customs just seem like boring bullshit now
Thats why im getting a chicony 5191 and selling my cheap dogshit chinese boards. I know it's not a really rare model, but its a start.
@@DarkoPetreski nice!
Everyone aspires for the same trendy thing. It’s very boring. For being “custom” you’d expect more uniqueness and less trend tracing and groupthink.
Ive been loving QMK for years but this is now officially my fav review for the QMK experience :^)
I ordered an F104 at long last which I'm glad finally exists and I'm very excited to get it whenever.
Have you received your board yet, and if so, how long did it take to ship? I ordered mine and it said it can take about 1-4 weeks, but was curious if there’s an average between that timeframe. Thanks!
@@TeamMavik Only took about 2 weeks. The numpad on mine doesn't completely work right. Some of the numbers either don't respond or register as both that number and an adjacent number. Apparently I may need to physically troubleshoot the springs and whatnot which Joe has extensive documentation on. I just left it alone in the past month that I've been using the board. Reseating didn't work so I'll probably have to dig deeper.
@@pip5528 Thanks for the response! Yeah, unfortunately, I've heard buckling spring keyboards can have issues like these during shipping. That's just the nature of the beast, I suppose. Hopefully you're enjoying it otherwise. The only other buckling spring keyboard I have is a new Model M from Unicomp which thankfully didn't have any issues, so I'm kind of a novice when it comes to troubleshooting. I hope Joe's documentation guides you in the right direction and you're able to get it fixed. If that still doesn't help, it might also be a good idea to post a thread on geekhack since I'm sure a lot of users there have had to troubleshoot Model Fs and Model Ms before.
P.S. Love your profile picture. I replaced the Windows logo on the media keys with Tux on my new Model M since I daily drive Mint on my work rig.
I love the idea of this, but I hate the layout. I totally would have bought an AT-101 or 122-key version if such had been made available.
Yeah, I wish they would have done a model with F keys, tenkeyless or not. It's why I never ended up buying one of these.
107 FTW - dream kb
Full dream mode, i would love a southpaw 75% version.
Totally unrealistic, I know, but I am a mouse room gremlin lol
@@louisgarbour2737 omg yesssss
Why are people saying about TKL's? The entire point is for this thing to be yknow, actually useful?
A little known fact is that they called it the model F because you have to press F to pay respect to the ears of your wife when you use it.
Sell wife, get model F, profit.
$900 is an inconceivable amount? *Keymacs entered the chat*
Keycult has entered the char
Amazing review and extremely honest.
Appreciate the attention to the software as usual - so many reviews just gloss over the drivers or exclaim "it works with a little effort".
QMK is the community favorite, far more preferred compared to proprietary software. The fact that it's open-sourced means your keyboard's firmware will be supported and updated as long as the community exists. Also the ability to modify your own codes means you're free from vendor lock-in.
QMK is great, but it definitely makes sense for a keyboard seller to preflash their controllers with via enabled. With the right know how, you can do a ton of stuff with QMK, but for a keyboard that you're not building from scratch and procuring your own controllers for, it's not very sensible to expect all users to compile their own firmware to flash to the board. You can have a board with QMK firmware that is a very simple user experience right out of the box, but it requires a bit of effort on the seller's end to at least properly compile and flash some firmware onto the board first. People struggling with via and finding out it's because it's plugged into a USB hub is relatively common and feels like it should probably be mentioned for new users as well.
22:28 The reason why the Num Lock is essential is for those legacy Alt+Numpad key sequences, such as Alt+155 = ¢ key and so on. Most condensed laptop keyboards will map the numeric keypad keys somewhere on the right side of the main keyboard, for instance.
This is why I'd rather have an F107 instead as well xD .
I think one could configure a layer which uses the number row as those keys, then map that "Num Lock" key to "Fn" instead.
I don't recall if it is necessary to use the numpad or not to enter those sequences.
IMHO, the keyboard is more usable with the HHKB-style split right shift, and I can't imagine anyone finding that intrusive. After all, does anyone actually press the rightmost quarter of the right shift key?
I would have paid more for an f107 reproduction, also--despite my being on a tight budget by any measure. I simply don't understand the present-day, widespread infatuation with small keyboards. The thing is already a boat anchor. I can't even slide it around on my desk; it must be lifted and placed.
Loving the spring sound on the original. ❤️
Watched this three times now and fully ready to throw my money at it. Thanks for the excellent, educational, in-depth review!
Applesauce, ladies and gentlemen.
what id like is for them to release a keyboard with modern full sized model m style layout but with these switches and the rest. then I could actually use it.
They have that now
it's obviously 2 years later, but the recommended programming program is now Vial, which is excellent. flashing it was much simpler than using QMK for me, so it might be worth checking out if you ever end up using this keyboard again.
"qmk is for major tech nerds"
* looks at my uni course *
You didn't have to call me out like that.
Yep that’s why we have VIA! Thoguh not sure if this board is via compatible
That software gave me flashbacks to the Kazzo NES cart reader (which in it's defense required obscure knowledge of NES memory mappers for specific carts to use and was the definition of a niche product).
im an arts student. qmk looks overwhelming but in reality it's copy key codes from the docs, type compile into a window then press the flash button
@@-nomi.- Fine arts?
@@j.b.7133 social sciences more like but we call it arts here
As an American, I enjoyed seeing a gun in this video.
Too bad it wasn't real. 😔
"pew pew"
Go loud or go home! Clicky master race.!
This is like hail on a corrogated iron roof.
Jesus christ, you're so spot on it hurts.
BUT
Go LOUD or go HOME, MX BLUE NOOBS
Best keyboard review ever. I especially appreciate the weight demonstration.
I love your use of imperial units from around the world!
I picked up one of these a few months ago and would agree with most of this video. Getting the keycaps in properly and flashing are a bit of a headache, but once you have everything set up the keyboard is a dream to type on. I do recommend buying the repair kit and some extra/alternative keycap bundles for extra customization and maintenance.
That being said, it can't be stressed enough that this is not a pick up and play keyboard; I had an inkling but it wasn't until I watched through the introduction/setup video that I really realized how involved I would need to be with the keyboard to get the most out it.
Wonderful keyboard. Truly a GOAT, and on my wish list. I can't imagine the perseverance required to see the project to its end. Sounds amazing.
still waiting for my model f to arrive and im still hyped ever since i initially bought it
well now I have a new software project to work on once I get my model f in :-)
Definitely going to try to automate the QMK update with some sort of WebKit GUI.
My F77 finally arrived last week and I have been completely blown away by it. The layout is absolutely perfect, while the switch feel is just amazing! I did have an issue with the G key (which seemed to be permanently pressed). Thankfully, I managed to fix this by pulling the spring up and allowing it to snap back. I think my only complaint is the lack of a CAPS LOCK LED, however as the six-pin header on the controller will allow a LOCK LED to be fitted, at some point I may look at a home-brew solution here. Then again - I might not.
This is gonna be epic
I just got my F62s yesterday after ordering them last year. I had a bit of trouble with the stabilisers at first until I really pressed them in, then it was all okay. I'm absolutely in love with it already. I'm hoping I can get a couple of F77s (one for home use and another for work use, especially the latter where having numpad is convenient) before the run is completely over. I honestly surprised the run is still going, such a shame that production won't be forever though. This thing is the real deal.
We need to convince Ellipse to open source the entire design and tooling if he's really going to permanently sunset the project.
Holy shit you just saved my life. Had mine for 5 months and the keys with rods stabilizers all felt a bit wrong. After reading your comment I went and pushed harder on them with a screwdriver and now all the keys feels just right
I went with the F62 version, the weight of this thing cannot be overstated. Makes my desk's keyboard tray cower in fear.
Thanks for another excellent keyboard review, Thomas.
Keys sound authentic, as the banking keyboards always seemed to me to have a deader sound than the IBM PC and 3270 model F keyboards. I used to program the 4704 banking systems many years ago, and there was never that high pitched spring noise you get in your reconditioned keyboard. Managed to get my hands on a "Pingmaster" a couple of years ago, but it obviously never matched the Model Fs I have missed for decades. Been checking in on this project for a long time and am so happy this has finally shipped.
@ModelFkeyboards.com - Brand New Model F Buckling Spring Keyboards The 4700s were usually menu based programs designed for smaller screens but similar to what might be seen on 3278 terminals linked to a mainframe. The distributed processing of the 4700 meant that transactions could be partially processed locally and then sent in batches for mainframe processing.
The hardware was very reliable, with the most common points of failure being the 4701 5 1/2" floppy drives due to dust and dirt (during a reboot after a power outage), or the display unit.
Keyboards were reliable and robust and in my experience front line staff only ever used the 50 key model 100. Usage and key functions tended to be similar to bespoke POS keyboards. The 4704 model 100 keyboard layout was related to the previous generation banking terminal 3604 model 1 keyboard with an extra column of keys on the RHS block, which goes some way towards explaining the unusual format. If there ever were any keyboard issues, a robust upside down tap on the desk sorted things out. I only saw the model 300 and 400 keyboards a few times.
The 4700s were programmed in assembler. All these banking systems were eventually replaced by PC's. I did not work in the US, but over half of all New Zealand bank branches used 4700s at one stage. Lloyds bank in the UK used these in the late 1980s. Tellers used these terminals to process almost all front of house banking transactions.
I still remember my sorrow at having to bin my trusty old AT format model F keyboard and having to use a crappy plastic model M.
QMK configurator is a decent alternative to VIA. Like Via, you get a GUI for mapping keys, but you have to flash the firmware in afterwards. I'd recommend giving that a go if VIA is not working out for you.
I have to hard disagree about QMK being worse than Corsair as at least it's flashed onto the keyboard memory rather than an app running on your PC. Yes, there is a learning curve, but thanks to QMK configurator it has become much more approachable. Some of the more advance stuff aren't available in Config, but what's there is more than enough for most people.
I bought one of these and sold (almost) every other keyboard I owned just because I stopped using them because this thing is just a whole other level of perfection. I got extremely lucky as I bought it in January of 2021 and got it in Febuary (recieved it without caps, but I ordered them for later)
Also, I use Leximark keycaps on mine, and I noticed the spacebar doesn't rattle with Leximark caps.
Err... I ordered mine in 2016 and paid for the low serial option, and should only just now be getting it tomorrow. Wtf. Lol. But I suppose it's likely due to my exact configuration having not been made available
I just got my IBM Model M 2nd generation just 3 days ago! I absolutely love it!! 😁
Enjoy the Model M goodness!
If the ISO UK models are skipping more, then maybe the ISO DE ones will be ready sometime this year too.
What an absolute beast. I might get one but I really need a new desk for it hahaha
Great, fun and VERY informative video! :)
And props to the guy who built this, I usually expect this repros to be very disappointing but beating IBM in their own game, man, noice
im still waiting for mine... this makes me want it even more
9:27 Still, this part is my personal favorite!
совершенное оружие!
I like QMK...
Me too. I must be one of the 'major tech nerds' because I didn't find it to be a big deal at all. And QMK opens up so many possibilities beyond just simple key remapping! Big fan.
@@alborisninvel3714 It's just not user friendly and has a barrier to entry before one is proficient in using it. Lot of great features no one can deny that, just could be more straight forward to use.
Was waiting for this!
Fuck yeah, I have been waiting for this video since 2019, well worth the wait!
QMK is really not that hard to use, QMK config and QMK Toolbox make it rather easy to flash the layout you want. Any difficulty would simply be from the failure of the vendor/designer to provide proper documentation.
Absolutely.
I think chyrosans not too familiar with the custom world, so the concepts foreign to him
It's not hard to use but is very unintuitive if you've never used it before.
@@kinger2005 I would argue that, if you need to be familiar with a program for it to be easy, then it isn’t easy, is it? At least to set up.
It's easy once you take 3 hours to learn it. Even then there's still a curve- I disagree.
In the computer museum of my hometown we have an original 1981-issue IBM PC with a Model F keyboard. As visitors are encouraged to test the machines on display, I once told some visitor to take the keyboard into his hands. He was quite impressed by the enormous weight of the Model F!!
It's nice that you took the time to highlight the functionality of the software. Future users are now prepared.
Having dealt a lot with qmk, can confirm, it's a whole thing. But once the ball gets rolling, it's pretty good, and the guides are continuing to get better over time, slowly...
09:27 Comparing keyboards to guns now? Fuck yea! xD
14:11 You can clearly hear that in the old keyboard keys metal inside switch is not hitting anything as upper limit. While metal inside switches at new keyboard hit some firm limit and do not have that "gong"-u "bell"-u sound that is heard as high note. Wonderfull keyboards, thank You. Best Regards
23:42 My colleagues need this sound.
eh, imagine what if unicomp would decide to invest into the proper tooling instead...
The twang of the buckling springs was the music of my computer youth. Beautiful.
Can totally get behind you on QMK, I literally had to find a video that had step-by-step instructions on how to flash firmwares to even understand what the fuck was going on.
Not to brag, but I'd never programmed a keyboard in my life and reprogrammed my NMF F77 first try. Based on others' horror stories, I must have gotten lucky to find the right information the first time.
Sure, it's harder than it should be. I think if it had been beta tested with a small particular group, it'd have been shipped with QMK/Via stock. Once you're running Via, besides the USB hub issue you ran into (why didn't my hub have this issue?) it's a solid 7/10 on the programmability UX.
edit: Oh, I forgot - this typed on a NMF F77.
I probably would've bought one of these if they did at least a F107. It's a shame really. I'm just a big keyboard kind of guy. I use a Unicomp M122 on my main machine. Great keyboard.
does the M122 also only have 2 key rollover like the model M?
Same. It's such a great idea, and I'm baffled as to why they chose such unusual layouts. I would have bought a 101- or 122-key version, but the layouts that they offered are useless to me.
@@olik136
Nah modern Unicomps are more like 5 keyrollover or so. The new model M has better keyroller IIRC.
@@Alpha8713
So I believe his logic was that the F62 and F77 are extremely rare keyboards. So he wanted to reproduce those two model F's, since they're so uncommon. And people can now sort of complete their collection of model F's, if they wanted to.
I hate this logic, given that some of us don't own any model F's at all.
@@copper4eva Interesting. That kind of makes sense for keyboard collectors. But there is a big market out there for people like me who don't collect keyboards, but who value good ones. I would pay $400 for a high-quality keyboard that is actually useful to me. Original model Fs have a great feel, but the 88-key layout is awful. As are the F62 and F77. An AT101 layout with model F switches would actually be useful to me, and I would order one immediately, if given the chance. (I'd actually prefer the AT101 version with the control and caps lock key positions swapped, but I can live without that).
This won't be the first time my pocket thins after a chyrosran video...
Thank you for another incredible video, this one on my favorite posession. I own two different varieties, as these will only be made in two rounds. Ever, apparently. It's so hard to describe exactly how irreplaceable this typing experience is, you have captured it perfectly.
I used to write software for an IBM AS/400 on the 122 key battleship. My go to keyboard for 17 years!!!
And here I am still using IBM AS/400 software at work every day.
@@xthebumpx I'm jealous. I loved working on those systems.
It's a shame: a couple of years ago was up in Rochester and IBM is basically gone. Rumor at that time was less than 1000 IBMers were left and most of the vast main building is leased out to local small businesses. And, the AS/400 moniker is long gone from the sign by Rt-52.
@@KangoV We could use some more people to work *on* them. 🤣Unfortunately working *in* them, at least ours, is not particularly user friendly. Thankfully I'm working more on the SQL server now than doing manual work in the system.
@@jgurtz It's a shame. The AS/400 was an awesome machine.
I lol'd so hard at the QMK frustrations, as they basically mirrored my own when I was learning to use it. In fairness, once you get to grips with it it's not too bad, but VIA should be better at being a user-friendly front end.
And this is why I'm so disappointed that it doesn't come with Via firmware by default. It'd have made everything a lot easier!
Qmk is actually pretty easy to use once you understand the basics. But yeah it can seem pretty intimidating at first.
The hard programmability of this thing was definitely my experience as well. But once you figureit out it’s not too bad
I kinda don't understand why it's so hard to use QMK. Don't you just have to create your keymap on the config website, wait for it to compile then download the firmware. Then on your computer, reset the keyboard, choose the firmware file and click flash right? I mean it's still simpler than Razer Synapse
this with a trackpoint and function keys at the top would be my dream keyboard
It's a shame modding trackpoints into modern keyboards isn't really a thing. I would love to have trackpoint on my keyboard.
@ModelFkeyboards.com - Brand New Model F Buckling Spring Keyboards
I've seen these mods. It's not an actual true trackpoint though. More like a track stick, or pointing stick. Still better than nothing admittedly though.
Oh good, that's around the same time I ordered mine. Should be arriving any day now :)
when you convert to imperial units, is it accurate?
Yes!
To the 18th decimal point, or in imperial units, 1/376th of an eagle fart.
If I didn't already own a "Model F AT" that I saved from being thrown into a landfill over 20 years ago, then I would have bought one. Having the AT version really helps using it with modern hardware since PS/2 connectors still are common.
I have a Model F77 just like this except ANSI, and I use it far more than my F AT. When typing plaintext though I do prefer the F AT just for nostalgia factor.
I kind of split the difference in buying one of these and instead bought an old F122, but also brand new buckling springs to install from this reproduction run. Very early on, he was offering just the springs and paddles at a very reasonable price, like 25 cents each, and I grabbed them before the prices went up. I feel like this was the best of both worlds, because the 122 has an almost modern layout.
I'm not sure how to compare the old switches with the new, because my F122 was very heavily used. Keys that got more use had a noticeably lighter feel than keys that had less use, so it wasn't apples to apples. After replacement, it felt a little bit heavier, ever so slightly less crisp, but also much more even. I think I preferred the old springs ever so slightly, but it's hard to tell how much that came down to manufacturing differences and how much was just break in of the new switches. I kept the old ones just in case I ever want to switch back.
As an American I very much appreciate you converting everything to Imperial units
While I usually agree with Chyros' review 100%, this time I don't completely agree, specifically about QMK. I've also received my F77 recently, and while I agree that QMK on the keyboard is really poorly configured from the manufacturer. It did took me almost an hour to figure out all the "traps" as well, even though I've used QMK before on several of my keyboards. But that not the fault of QMK or VIA. It's just poorly configured for this particular keyboard. When it's setup correctly as in many other customs keyboard, you can just run VIA and change the keys. No flashing or documentation needed. So, I think it's a bit unfair to say that QMK at fault for the frustration. QMK is an open source software with some amazing people behind it. The custom keyboard community really owe it to these guys for QMK as pretty much all custom keyboard uses it. At least I personally really appreciate the all the work that went into QMK. Without a powerful and open source software like QMK, many keyboard and pcb designers would've had a hard time creating their own firmware and all of us keyboard enthusiast will have to deal with all kinds of custom firmware that will most likely be a lot worse than QMK.
Music to my ears. 25:51 Thanks for the review, Thomas. 👍
I will always appreciate your relentless trolling of imperial users
I have this exact version of the new kb but I’m still waiting for the solenoid and controller for that extra old-school IBM kachunk kachunk experience.
@Mr. Magnificent The problem would be getting it to the office. This thing is so heavy that it is barely portable LOL! Like really heavy, not even joking.
QMK is somewhat annoying with things that aren't properly supported. All of my experience with it has been decent, plus there is an online configuration tool.
I think implementation is more the problem than QMK itself. I feel like if a dumbass like me can make it work it should be foolproof enough
One thing to consider though is, that the price isnt 400 dollars to your doorstep. Shipping to EU costs 60 dollars and then in EU you need to pay import tax. So getting this board would roughly around 600 dollars all in all at my doorstep. 400 Dollars is kind of in line with an entry level custom mechanical keyboard with good switches and decent keycaps, but many of those have far cheaper shipping options and sometimes with local vendors no tax.
I ordered an F77 with ISO-DE keycaps back in March 2018, and it just arrived yesterday, on April 29, 2022. If there are any other ISO-DE users, why not leave me a comment? When did you get your new Model F keyboard?
Yeah! Spirit of the Old School!
Looks like he's making 104-key and even 122-key variants now. Interesting.
"QMK is worse than Razer's and Corsair's software combined"
lmao
I thought I had reached my End Game with a KBDfans KBD67, split spacebar layout, Kailh Box Burnt Orange switches, PMK G20 keycaps. I couldn’t think of any way to improve it, short of developing my own custom PCB or hand-wired layout from scratch.
Then, a couple of days ago, my System76 Launch keyboard arrived. It’s almost like they worked down my wish list of features I wanted in a keyboard, plus a few I hadn’t even thought of (like the USB hub and the magnetic stand). And by the way. . . The Launch is “QMK compatible” but System76 have also created their own graphical program to configure it, and it’s brilliant and super-easy to use.
And now it seems, after years of waiting, that my Model F may finally show up Real Soon Now. And it’s an open question which one of these three I’ll end up using long-term. Which one will be the real top of the pyramid, I wonder?
So whats the follow up :D?
@@prokopf-9332 I'm back to the split-spacebar KBD67, now with fresh GMK keycaps and a matching accessory number pad.
System76 Launch is too much hassle to source keycaps for. Also the bottom row is a confused jumble of keys.
Model F77 is great in many ways, but becomes (just like the XT) kind of harsh to type on after a while. It's a great key layout, but at the same time I miss my split spacebar, and I would rather the keypad had been on the left side.
I think the only way I'm ever going to supersede my DZ60s and KBD67 is if I design my own custom layout and have it produced. Which I am tempted to do, but also is kind of hard to justify.
@@Zobeid Thanks for the reply! Im currently kinda satisfied with my leopold 660, ordered a Keychron Q1 and maaaybe will get a kbd67 as well. I was kind of contemplating this board, but for this price this would need to be perfcet as a daily driver, and not just a rotational thing. And it doesnt seem like the keyfeel is so utterly amazing that it goes above all other means of practicability.
Some reviews make you think that, thats why i thought about it. But yeah its just too much for me i think.
Hey! They have Model M case style 104 keyboards now! I am tempted.
the shell is beautiful. would kill for a modern deck of this shape.
I absolutely love your reviews. Thanks
I feel like I am hearing binging with babish, but with keyboards. Damn Keep up the good job man, love your channel.
Wow, this is really impressive. I'd love to have this in the Model 100 form (small(ish) ortholinear or nothing).
Amazing that this got made. It's a great product. I hope you put a solenoid in your one.
I love how you say "many models F" like culls du sac.
I don't really consider using weights "cheating." It's no different, in my opinion, than making the case itself extremely heavy. Realistically, when is your keyboard going to be exposed to enough force that a zinc alloy construction is going to be what saves it? The thing sits on your desk all day, and if you travel with it, it's going in a case. What it's made of is a matter of preference regarding essentially just weight and/or sound, in which case a weighted insert is going to do the same job. I actually prefer plastic cases most of the time (when they're well made like one from KBDFans), because plastic has a lower resonant frequency and doesn't ping with every keypress out of the box.
Cannot wait for mine to ship !
The guy who sells these just announced new models. You should contact him to review some of them, they look great.
Huh, I was convinced I had already watched this but apparently either I didn't or YT ate my like.
It would be nice to see a review of the modern layout variant that came out some time ago, I almost got that one recently before opting for something more affordable.
Completely agree with the QMK statement. It's soo hard to use. I can't believe someone made the QMK software and thought "yep, this is a great user friendly software".
Qmk is firmware for a microcontroller. It's so hard to use because you are configuring the firmware yourself, in a very low level manner. There are more user friendly ways of configuring qmk, with a graphical user interface for example. Qmk is also compatible with many different microcontrollers, keyboard layouts, and other things. You have to tell qmk what keyboard layout you are using for example, because it does not know what kind of keyboard you have. I don't think qmk is meant to be for end users per se. When I change things in qmk, I treat it more like (re)programming my keyboard rather than quickly changing a hotkey in the Razor application for example. I think that's where the user unfriendliness comes from.
It’s free software maintained by volunteers, many of hours of free labour have gone into it. Just something to consider before you go complaining about how terrible it is…
That's just how the FLOSS community works.
6:08 all hail that F-107
I've been eyeing some old Soviet boards, but the shipping costs more than the boards and the boards aren't cheap. About $800 combined. That beautiful blue-gray paint reminded me of them. One day.
The first keyboard I remember using when I was a wee little kid was some kind of split keyboard and the arrow keys were oval shaped. It also had a trackpad but my parents didn't hook that up because they preferred using a trackball. My dad even bought a wireless one in modern times
this F77 repo project has really changed my perspective on value for money in this hobby, like seriously how is something like a keycult more expensive than this? the extent to which clout has influenced prices is ridiculous and just too far, this is a better quality board than the vast majority of "high end customs" that earn their price tag from clout and exclusivity, and the fact that its this comparatively affordable really shames these custom companies
(and yes I do know the "actual reasons" why keycults and their ilk are so expensive, they're just completely invalid with the existence of something like the F77)