The Apostle Paul Died A Martyr. Here's The Evidence.
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- Опубліковано 15 тра 2024
- Did the Apostle Paul actually die as a martyr? Or is there a better explanation? This brief video is part of the grad class I teach at Talbot School of Theology (Biola University): "In Defense of the Resurrection." To hear an in-depth case for the Resurrection, which includes responses to leading naturalistic objections, consider joining me at Talbot!
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Paul was the greatest apostles ever lived. I admire him for his courage and fearlessness.
Paul never knew Jesus, he was not an Apostle!!
@@johnsonhunglo1993 apostle means sent. yk that right?
@@ddgg8316:
No, I did not know that, tell me more, please!!!
he was the Anti-Christ Jesus Warn'd about that people was gonna accept and follow,,, guess what,,,,,,,,,
@Dr. Sean McDowell You might want to consider actually doing a video focusing on the Pauline authorship issue of the Pastoral Letters, giving the argument for the traditional view. There isn't much on UA-cam that deals with this.
Prof Sean McDowell, fascinating video. Good research & articulation. You remind me of your dad (Evidence, More Evidence, The New Evidence). I was shaped by these books in late 1974, shortly after Jesus Christ came into my life. In my retirement, since January 2021, I have begun a new introductory series of videos on the Gospels targeting the younger generations on my UA-cam Channel in my own name. Lord bless you Dr. McDowell. 🎚📖
He is 13 and to me my humble opinion besides Christ his testimony the most important in the bible
Read George Lyttelton’s book on Paul’s conversion.
What about the Bible?
What is I Clement?
It’s an epistle written by Clement of Rome around 96 AD. There were two epistles attributed to him, but only the first one is deemed authentic.
How it differs from any other cult in our days that their followers believed enough in something that they were willing to die for or commit a suicide, the important case here is that the Jews of that time that were fully familiar with Hebrew scriptures were not convinced at all as they knew how the messiah was prophesied and it was defently not Jesus
Where does scripture say that Peter died in Rome??
It’s extra biblical, but when interpreted correctly, 1 Peter 5:13.
@@SeanMcDowell I’ve read other parts of scripture that talk about Babylon; is every single time they discuss Babylon (even in Revelation) talking about Rome? I thought Peter was sent to preach to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. I also thought they found Peter’s grave in Israel?
Peter’s tomb:
jamestabor.com/was-simon-peter-buried-in-jerusalem/
@@SeanMcDowell You second source for the Martyrdom of Paul, Acts (Luke 9:51 and Acts 19:21) don't say anything about the Martyrdom of Paul.
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I never really understood this argument, I freely grant everyone was a martry because it truly makes no difference. Every religion people point to as false has Martyrs. Martyr's is the worst argument anyone can make because you have zero idea what someone is willing to die for and it's ridiculous to pretend you do, especially at a time when a death was more honorable and viewed vastly different then it does today.
So yeah using martyrs as evidence that a certain religion is true is total foolishness, but that is because most martyrs believe what they have heard. But the disciples and Paul died for what they claimed to see not hear, Paul hated Christians and the church the last thing he would want to do is become a Christian he had wealth and high status but he gave it all up because he believed to have encountered the risen Jesus so he died to himself and actually for something he claimed to have first hand witnessed, i would think it would be unreasonable to assume he lied based on how much he gave up
@@arthurmontoya7880 sure what they claimed to see. Paul only claimed to have a vision of Jesus after his death. Many religions claim to have truly seen the dieity they believe in. There are witnesses in the quran yet I'm sure you think they are lying or mistaken about what they say. We have eyewitnesses of alien abductions, people actually being abducted, movies based on actual events, fire in the sky for example yet most people don't buy they actually were. This issue is and the biggest issue for me is this..... You have a book that has claims you believe but disregard when other religions make the same exact claims for their beliefs and neither one of you actually know you just believe it is true because you don't know a single person In the Bible have never spoke with them and since we know Christians were not afraid to lie about stuff as it's clear we have many forged books how did you conclude what you have is true, because people in the 2nd and 3rd century say so. There are people who claim Alexander the great was born of a virgin, ghangis Kahn born of a virgin you I'm sure don't buy that but yet one story about jesus and yup 100% true.
Sure but I don't think that was the point of this video.
@@Christian_Maoist. no the point was is there good evidence to suggest wether Paul was a martry or not and like in my original post I don't understand why this is even an discussion worth having. I see Christians still arguing all the disciples were martyr's despite there being evidence Athiets arguing they weren't. Wether they were martys or not, wether you can compile evidence to say they all were it does nothing for the Christians argument of does god exist. It's like when Christians argue evolution. If you disprove evolution that doesn't mean god did it by default, you still have to prove god. I just think it's a wasted argument to put out because people will hitch their horse to this as if it proves god and intelligent Atheists just can't seem to grasp this outstanding evidence for this clear cut case of god. Not saying that's you, just saying this is what happens.
@@atheistskeptic8748 To say that there's no evidence of Christian Martyrdom isn't a entirely a fair statement, since all the earliest mentions of Christianity from pagan sources like Tacitus and Suetonius tell us that Christians were disliked and sometimes even persecuted. But I get your point. People die for their beliefs all the time, and that doesn't necessarily prove it. There is no exact way to prove God definitively. The only thing Christian apologetics and philosophical arguments can do is try to prove that belief in God is plausible and reasonable.
Good stuff. You can count me in the group of former believers who still finds it more likely than not that Paul genuinely believed he had an experience of Jesus, and that experience convinced him to spend the rest of his life dedicated to spreading his interpretation of what Jesus life and death meant.
Now as for his experience, I must still admit that it sounds no more compelling then very similar sounding experiences of Allah, Yaweh, Vishnu, and other often undefined gods/spirts I've seen other humans earnestly express they had in which the particular god they attributed the experience to advised them all other religions, including Christianity, were false, and in some cases they believed their god called them to die for Him/Her, and in the most tragic cases they were willing to do so. In fact I seem to recall one Jewish individual expressing that Yaweh had specifically warned them that Paul had actually experienced a deceitful spirt, attempting to trick and manipulate him into not only idol worship, worshipping a man as a god rather then god Himself, but to drag down as many other humans as possible through his testimony into said idolatry, and as a result even if I did have experiences that convinced me that the super natural realm existed, I couldn't say that person's experience of it was any more or less reliable then Paul's.
All of which is to say, that it seems probable to me that Paul was genuinely willing to be a Martyr for his beliefs doesn't actually suggest to me that what he believed was more likely true then what those who sacrificed themselves for their god on 9/11 believed, but purely from a historical investigation this lecture was still interesting and I appreciate your time putting this together and sharing it.
The mistake you atheists make is equating every single religion as one. Every religion is different and the followers are different. Islamic martyrdom is radically different than Christian martyrdom and for you to even equate the two shows that your “reasoning” and “critical thinking” skills clearly need improvisation. Other people convert to religions they personally find compelling but rarely do people convert for the reasons you claimed.
@@jamesr.g.2320 Am I an athiest? I don't say no god could exist, nor even that I think it more probable that no god's exist then that one does exist. The concept of a being who created this universe, then either abandoned it, or merely supervises it but does not interact with it could explain the evidence I see around me just as well as one not existing at all.
There's also a great many religions on this planet I still have not thoroughly examined and investigated, so I can't even say with confidence no religion on the earth which involves 1 or more god like beings does not have it right. I will say, after years of earnestly investigating and seeking to find justification to believe in the christian god, I found the evidence suggests (to me at least) that that particular god is more likely a work of fiction then real, but I simply do not know enough about all religions to make that claim globally.
I also don't claim to have absolute certainty that even the Christian god doesn't exist. I find the evidence strongly suggests it, but I am not omniscient, nor do I believe my self infallible, that despite my best efforts I could still be mistaken is within the realm of possibility. The only thing on the subject I can say with 100% certainty is that I pursued a relationship with said god and to find justification to believe in said god more intensely, more earnestly, and more thoroughly then I've ever pursued anything in my life before or since. In this I have no doubt. But because I am a fallible human could I have done everything in my power to find truth and still failed, absolutely.
In any case, as for your other comment, all I can say is that I do my absolute best to be honest with my own experience, I've talked to a great many people who claim to believe christianity, and a handful of people who claim to believe other religions or spiritual beliefs, over the course of my life and the many places on the planet I've lived, but relative to the number of people on this planet, I've only spoken to a very small percentage. Perhaps my experiences do not match up with your own? Perhaps you have done global surveys across the planet and have legitimate data that backs up your assertion that my own experienced are not reflective of the world at large. I don't know you, so I can't say, and as a result I won't refute you but will just give you the benefit of the doubt that what you say is based on something legitimate and not just your own limited experiences. If so, thats fine, I don't think it refutes anything I've said, however. I made no claim that all people believe for these reasons, only gave you some of what has been shared with me personally.
In any case, despite the contempt with which you addressed me, I still appreciate your willingness to engage and wish you and your loved ones well. Even if we have both spent years investigating the truth of a religion and the brains we were born with caused us to come to different evaluations of the evidence, that does not mean we can't both love and respect each other, let alone be friends.
The Apostle Paul was certainly willing to die and did eventually die for believing in the risen Jesus, so he must’ve seen something, and we need to verify if he had an actual vision of Jesus. There’s no evidence that he had a grief or guilt hallucination, there’s no way that he’d lie, he wasn’t the only one to see Jesus, there were over 500+ witnesses (that creed came from a hostile community and there’s no way they’d get away with making that up). The other religions teach that Jesus didn’t resurrect, wasn’t crucified and so on, but if you can find evidence that He really was crucified and people really did see Him after His death, then that’s all that you need.
@@Nameless-pt6oj As I mentioned in my initial post, there are literally people in my life time who believed so certainly that they experienced a non-christian god, and that that god told them to do something, that they were willing to and did die for their belief. Do you argue these peoples gods, like Allah, Vishnu, and others, all must also exist since countless people not only claim to have experienced them, but died for their belief? If not, then how is paul different? Again, whats not in dispute by me is that its likely there was a man named paul who truly believed he had an experience of Jesus (from reports it sounds like he thought heard a voice or feeling similar to how many people report to this day similar experiences of their gods). As I noted, I once had a Jew who told me God had spoken to them and told them Paul had experienced a demon who successfully tricked him into worshipping a false idol, worshipping a man instead of god, as a god, and even corrupting him so thoroughly as to entice him to convince others to join him in his idol worship, creating the unholy abomination and afront to god that they viewed christianity as. As I recall, and its been some years now, this Jew felt that as some one who does not believe, the Jewish god they believed in would be far more forgiving of me then christians who, through following Paul and others influenced by this demon into making an idol of a man named Jesus and worshipping him as god, are bringing god's wrath upon themselves. I find it unlikely this is the case, again, I don't say there can be no god but I don't currently see justification to believe in any god, including the Jewish god, but I can understand why many jews would view all christians as idolaters for worshiping a human as god, and especially those who believe God has specifically spoken to them to tell them so.
Oh such little faith. A man's wisdom is right in his own sight. There is one and only living God. Jesus, the way, the truth the light. Your interest only proves his existence. He did not leave us in as much as He lives in us, Via the Holy Ghost. Praise God. Thank you Jesus.
Last time I was this early, Paul still had his head...
I'm dead😂
Matthew 23 tells of saul/Pauls demise,, Jesus Condemn'd him to hell,,,
This is so sketchy. “Church tradition” is definitely not history
I never understand why Christians, even with the best of intentions, argue from the possibility that scripture may not be fully inspired or may have parts that were added later... to me it’s like a knight going into a fight to the death without his helmet and saying, “aim here” to his opponent...
even if Paul died a martyr, this does not make any of the things he preached or believed true.
people believe in and die for a lot of silly things. that paul can't even keep his origin story straight doesn't say much for him and his trustworthiness.
I don’t think that’s the point.
@@juanventer5145 I know. However, Chrisitans try to claim that people don't offer themelves up as martyrs for a lie and thus their silly stories must be true. It is an false assumption that they want people to make.
@@juanventer5145 What "academic world" do you speak of? For I have seen plenty of Christians who claim to have doctorates, etc and all insisting that martyrs indicate that Christianity must be true. If so, then Islam is *really* true, eh?
Christians want to pretend that their supposed apostles etc didn't lie. They have no evidence that any of the events around JC happened, and no evidence for any magical man/god. Either they lied or were the usual cultists and didn't bother questioning. Not a good look for Christians in any case.
@@juanventer5145 And again, you and your scholars, Juan. You can't refute my points and mysteriously you drag creationists into this. My dear, you claimed that all scholars agree with you " Scholars just tend to say that it seem unlikely that the apostles lied." Where are they?
Now, before I show that the apostles could have lied and that this is supported, do tell what you would accept as "scholarly sources"? I want to see you write down what you want. Do they have to be Chrisitans? Do they have to be bible scholars? Do they have to be historians?
You claimed that the apostles didnt' lie. How do you propose to show that? Because they died?
I invite you to read this: Did the Apostles Die for a Lie? • Richard Carrier
The Project Gutenberg eBook of Not Paul, But Jesus, by Jeremy Bentham, Esqr.
@@juanventer5145 unsuprisingly, one more Christian must depend on willful ignorance to keep his religion.
When I hear the word: "TRADITION" when applied to The Gospel I think of "one" organization , her harlot daughters, and her disciples. In light of the many many false teaching of the so-called universal church I regard its conclusions and those of her disciples less than creditable.
well said.
Paul probably died a martyr, but it doesn't mean anything to me. He didn't see the post-resurrected, pre-ascended, physically-embodied Jesus, only claimed to see a vision, and a preached a message of salvation by grace & faith that was in direct opposition to what Peter and James believed. I think Paul dying as a martyr undermines the whole death-by-martyrdom argument anyway. It undermines the "no one dies for a lie they know to be false, therefore Christian is true" argument. Whatever the reason Paul was martyred, it wasn't because he saw the resurrected Jesus, and that means all the other Christian martyrs didn't necessarily die for that reason either.
@@JM-jj3eg Whatever the language, this is clearly in a different category of sighting since it is not a post-resurrection, pre-ascension experience that the other disciples had. Conflating these two distinct kinds of experiences like Paul does really undermines the validity of resurrection appearances.
Right, you are quoting Galatians in which Paul is obviously going to be accepting of himself into the group. If you believe that JtBoJ wrote the epistle of James, there's clear disagreement in the doctrines of saved-by-grace and salvation through belief and repentance, and demonstrated by good works.
@@kdietz65 what is your proof that Paul didnt see the post-resurrected Jesus?
@@Ttcopp12rt Paul's own words plus an understanding of the basic historical timeline. I said post-resurrected/pre-ascended, meaning to see Jesus in the alleged 40 day period of time between the time he rose from the dead and later ascended into Heaven, which was reported to be 40 days. Presumably it took more than 40 days for the early church to get started, and then even more time for Paul to start persecuting them, and then even more time for him to have his conversion experience, so just doing the basic math, that must have taken longer than 40 days, in which case Jesus would have already been ascended into Heaven by that point.
@@kdietz65 Thanks for the reply...However, you are incorrect on your two points as they are based on personal assumptions and not textual evidence. For example (1). You appealed to the words of Paul. But you are arguing from silence as Paul never denies seeing the resurrected Jesus. And (2). Your math regarding "40 days" is extremely off big time. We know from John 20 that the Resurrected Jesus made appearances, was seen by, and interacted with his disciples a week later. And so your assumption that it took more than 40 days to "get started" is in actuality nothing more than bad math precisely because it ignores textual evidence.
🙏
@@Ttcopp12rt Well Acts 1:3 says he appeared the disciples over a period of forty days, so I'm just going off that. My reading of Paul is that he's not claiming to have seen Jesus in that 40 day time window, and I've never heard any apologist argue that case. So unless you think Jesus died, appeared to the disciples, the early church got started, it got large enough for them to start getting persecuted, long enough for Paul to get involved and start tracking them down, and then had is Road to Damascus conversion experience, and that all happened within 40 days, then I think my argument is accurate from the text. The general consensus is that Paul had been persecuting Christians for a minimum of 2 or 3 years before he had his conversion experience, and the early Christian church existed for several years before that. 1 Corinthians was written about 55 ad, that's about 25 years after then death of Jesus. That's my math.
Good video. I'm open but still unconvinced that Paul was put to death or beheaded.
2 Timothy: Paul could simply have been keenly aware that he was about to due to illness.
1 Clement: The trials that are mentioned there speak to Paul's endurance. Endurance doesn't necessarily point to martyrdom in this passage. Paul even spoke to endurance when he said that we have to finish the race.
1 Clement: "And so he was set free..." does not necessarily mean killed. He was set free from this world.
Strict exegesis does point to martyrdom or beheading.
But if you're searching for martyrdom and beheading, you'll find it. But, of course, that's eisegesis.
A murderer gone angelic.
¡Not angelic, he deserved it! Clement made him Holy but he was not.
Hahaha What kind of baloney is this? The letter is not considered to be written by Paul and the fact that many believed it was is not a validation of what you’re trying to prove here.
You’re basically arguing that if your assertion of martyrdom wasn’t true then so many wouldn’t have believed the letter was written by Paul.
Sean, no wonder you get schooled in every debate. This must be t(e worst argument I have ever heard.
A fiction was so believable that it doesn’t matte that it was fiction?
This is the best you got? That persecution fetish is really looking for confirmation my friend.