Just to clarify, I am speaking primarily about S*xual Violence. I'm also talking about including it unnecessarily with no other benefit to the plot or characters than to illicit a wanted behavioral change for the woman. I'm sorry if that is not made more apparent in the video, but I didn't want to continue saying the word "S*xual" to avoid UA-cam's pearl clutching😱. I understand that there are other violent struggles against characters used in writing. This is a particular trope that I am talking about, and how writers tend to take the lazy way out in presenting it. I hope that clears things up a bit. Thank you! 💜💜
I think you made this clear enough, considering you explicitly stated “violence against women just for the sake of violence is lazy writing”, and as a writer, I absolutely agree. Especially since you then go on to say that having violence is a character’s backstory is not inherently bad, since that is unfortunately a part of many people’s pasts. But there’s a huge difference in honest, authentic writing about trauma recovery and the Mad Lib formulaic “man SAs woman and it’s just the pep she needed to TURN HER LIFE AROUND”. The latter is very much aligned with the misogynistic narrative that a penis can literally change who a woman is inherently, and it’s exhausted and annoying. To that end, I know a lot of writers, myself included, draw on trauma to write, and I love and encourage the use of a creative outlet to process. That being said, it’s my humble suggestion to anyone wanting to write for an audience to consider whether you are writing from a healed place; trauma cycles are perpetrated in many, many ways, and I think too many authors are still processing their trauma in on-page, which is fine in private writings. But having a platform as an author comes with a level of responsibility for not reinforcing and protruding trauma cycles among your fans, and that includes harmful, outdated tropes.
I think I get what you're saying, and I agree. There needs to be a distinction between thriller-story writing, or horror-writing, and "Women's Empowerment" writing. A woman isn't empowered only because she became stronger after an act of violence, and associating the two shouldn't be so commonplace that we are consistently waiting for the other shoe to drop in books about women's' internal growth. Edit: I also think that it's not always violent acts that result in horrific outcomes for people, and I feel that a lot of these stories reinforce the idea that there aren't multiple kinds of abusive behavior.
@@Witchy_Reads I wonder if you might like "A Fistful of Sky" by Nina Kiriki Hoffman or "Pigs in Heaven" by Barbara Kingsolver if you don't know of them already. It's been a while since I read them but they stuck in my mind as challenging a lot of tropes
I wonder what those authors would say when asked if they think that a man which is sexually assaulted is also bound to be empowered and if so why we nver see that kind of story...
It does make one think. Unfortunately, there is a trope for this, that I find just as reprehensible. Usually when it's a man it's played for laughs, which is just baffling to me. That trope also needs to go.
I think Weyward shows the generational cycle that almost every woman will experience violence. It hardly skips a generation, and it is sometimes inevitable to an existence and world not made for us. I think we just as well deserve stories that don't need violence to act as a catalyst for strength, growth, and character development. However, often women experience terrible violence, and usually they do grow in spite of what happened to them. I have been a victim of Child SA, and r@pe as a teen to my young adulthood. I have experienced many occurrences of sexual, physical, and emotional violence. Sadly, my choices are to spite what happened to me. That is reality. I make choices based on the person I am now, who is different from the person before it occurred. Parts of me died, and I regrew to spite the world. Resiliency and resistance is reality (as well as the phases of sorrow, mourning, and healing). In a feminist world, we would be able to live independent of the actions done to us, but in this world we are subject to it's influence. I would like media I can relate to, that offer me solace in those lived experiences, and lead me towards reflection and healing. Sometimes that doesn't mean a story where nothing bad happens, sometimes it is looking at the bad right in the face, and recognizing I'm not alone in it.
I'm so sorry about everything you went through, truly. That is awful and no one should suffer through something like that. I understand what you mean about getting some kind of solace out of stories you can relate to when it comes to that experience. I agree that those stories are important. And there are plenty of stories that utilize this trope well. I think where I may have not been as clear in my reasoning is that my main issue is when this trope is misused and further hurts rather than provides comfort. I also think we don't have enough stories where this isn't the norm for women. While I understand the world we live in, most books are meant to be an escape, so when they are mostly filled with se*ual violence towards women, it gets frustrating. We should be seen as more than that, especially in stories where women are the MCs and the plot is not served by having this trope added to it. Which, I don't believe Weyward's plot was. That's all I was trying to say.
@@Witchy_Reads Thank you for the kind and thoughtful response. I understand that. I agree we also need escapes to how our world is, that is why I read tons of fantasy. I try to branch out into lots of genres and also more cozy books (since they are less likely to show trauma in such bold ways). I think your criticism is very valid towards this trend of almost shock trauma p0rn in books, but I can also see the argument for traumatic events as development. I think there is a ton of nuance between what may be helpful and harmful for individual readers. I really enjoyed your video, as it is giving me another way to analyze what I'm reading, and being mindful and present about what I'm consuming.
I mean, yeah, it's an old trope, and I avoid it in my writing as best I can, though I write fantasy and violence is a part of adventuring. Still, I avoid sexual or discriminatory violence, because frankly, while overcoming trauma does show strength of character, there's no reason that it has to be an attack on the sex of the character. Physical strength slays dragons, but emotional strength can tame them is how I try to look at it.
I like this and I agree. I think I perhaps could have been more clear in my video in that my main issue is sexual violence or violence that primarily focuses on the sex of the person, as you said. But I didn't want to keep bleeping out that word because UA-cam likes to pearl clutch. I had hoped that point would come across without it. 😅 Thank you for checking out my video! 💜
An interesting video! It's got me thinking about how I've written and empowered the women in my current fanfiction WIP. I have two female characters who are abused by men: one in backstory and one on the page. My approach with these portrayals was restraint. While one character's abuse by her regent is only alluded to in her internal monologue, the abuse we do see on the page involves a husband poisoning and gaslighting his wife, but the abuser still respects a lot of his victim's boundaries and asks for consent (and respects her no). This isn't to make him "likeable", but because he doesn't NEED to be violent with her beyond what I've already outlined. I also think we need more absolutely detestable villains who never sink that low, not because they should be celebrated for doing the bare minimum, but because it makes IRL grapists look even worse. There's also the fact that the character being abused is revealed to have a lot of secret badass training, but she struggles to use it against her abuser in part because she still loves him, and the fact that he still holds a lot of the cards. Any time she stands up to him usually leads to more gaslighting, to the point where she realises that the only way she can move forward is if she runs away. Only then does her journey of empowerment (or more like her return from disempowerment) begin, coming from her healing and gaining a wider perspective on her experiences. Basically, she sees the harm her husband is wrecking havoc on her kingdom and another, and spends Book 2 doing what she can to undo it. Part of it is driven by her self-blame complex (believing that this would have never happened if she hadn't allowed herself to be soft-usurped by her husband), but a lot of it is driven by the love and sense of duty she has towards her citizens. By the time she confronts him near the end, she has a better idea of what kind of person he is, so even though she almost falls back under the spell of his abuse, it's just enough for her to take him down. I feel like it's important to show her continuing to struggle to be around him even after all her growth, in addition to said growth being attributed to something other than him.
In my opinion, having not read your WIP, it sounds like you are doing the heavy lifting here. Your character has traits and goals outside of the violent acts she has dealt with. Love for her Kingdom and her people, her sense of duty, her training that precedes her relationship with her husband, etc. I am fine with violence and even sexual violence in books as long as the right amount of care is given to developing that plot point. And from the sound of it, you are. Thank you for checking out my video. 💜
👏👏👏 couldn't agree more, I don't understand what 'growth through trauma' or 'overcoming adversity' feels like they needs to be in so many stories as the basis for lead characters arc's, and from what i have read it is definitely a more glaring issue with lead characters that are female. A character can be strong or empowered without this, it potentially teaches that the only reason these characters grow and become strong is through bad things happening to them first, and the fact it is so prevalent is a bit worrying tbh. Another great video on something you don't see spoken about that often. Keep up the great work (sorry for war and peace)
Thank you! It really does feel like a sweeping issue in stories across all media, where writers don't know how to facilitate growth for their character(s) without putting them through something violently traumatic. It's also a bummer that I have to be extra mindful of it if I want to read books with a WMC. I just hope this stops being the norm in the near future. I'm glad you liked the video! 💜
Well that’s how people grow when bad things happen to them. This is a fact of the human experience. What you’re expressing is a Mary Sue which isn’t realistic. People don’t grow without struggle.
@@MarthaPennington88 respectfully i don't agree, whilst struggle is a catalyst for growth, it certainly is not the only way that growth can occur. Education and positive life experiences are just as much a cause of people growing and excelling, more to the point, struggle is just as likely to break people or leave them diminished depending on what events they have been through.
@@MarthaPennington88 Except that there are many different struggles that don't involve SA, gRape, or any other form of traumatic violence. Being poor is a struggle, familial expectations are a struggle, job loss is a struggle, and moving to a new place can be a struggle. These are only just a handful of examples. There are many more. Not wanting women in literature to constantly suffer violence as a way to motivate them isn't calling for them to all be a Mary Sue.
@@vens_corner you’re free to disagree but I see it as a lack of experience in the real world. People do not change based on information proved. Or we wouldn’t have drug addicts or smokers. Changes happens when one is forced into That’s a psychological fact. Plus that’s comes down a lack resilience and it’s unfortunate reality. Not everyone can be empowered. Have a nice day.
I loved this review; you did a really great job explaining your reasoning and I really enjoyed the breakdown. Thank you for sharing :) p.s. I don’t think you need to shorten your videos; plenty of people have grown off of longer content!
Thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoyed the video and got some interesting information out of it. 💜 And thank you for you input on the length of the videos. I do try to keep them in the 30-40 minute mark, but I don't want to sacrifice the information and the way I want to present it to shave off time. I honestly don't think this video could have been shorter given that I wanted to talk about the trope and review the two books. Considering all the info I had, I think I did fairly well. 😊
Thank you for voicing this, I had trouble describing why weyward bothered me so much when everyone else gave it glowing reviews. I thought I was just being dramatic by being bothered by the violence. I didn't find it hopeful or inspiring at all.
Yeah, reading Weyward was not the experience I was hoping for. It failed in every way narratively. The violence against women was completely unnecessary and gratuitous in some cases. I've seen a few others mention that they were disappointed, but couldn't exactly vocalize why. I'm glad my video is able to help with that. Thank you for watching! 💜
That intro got me absolutely HOOKED... to your channel! I'm absolutely excited to follow your book reading journey. I appreciate the care you gave this video.
Oh my gosh I loved this video! I never thought of that trope like that, but it also brings me back to some of the feminist books that had A LOT of violence in them that I couldn’t finish
Yes, it's crazy how prevalent this trope is in books marketed as "feminist" or "empowering." It's like a cruel bait and switch. I am glad you enjoyed the video, though. 💜
Thanks for the look at the two books; Weyward had been pitched to me in my feed ads but didn't pass my "read a few pages" test. This trope needs to be used very lightly and deftly if at all. As general trauma response, did anyone else read "The Life of Pi" as one big cluster of tension? The SA triggered growth and superpowers reminded me of a fantasy series I read decades ago that had a lovely depiction of meditative elves in touch with the spiritual fabric of the world through leylines. The element that led to my discarding the books was that the trigger to the process of humans starting to become one of these elves was trauma, the first book grape, others included a mistreated child, a veteran of war. It got too weighty in relation to the lovely parts, while undoubtedly helpful to some. All moods and acts do not have to be in all books.
Woah, that series sounds heavy. That seems overly excessive, and you're right; not every horrible act needs to be included just to superficially move the plot forward. Weyward definitely got harder to read as the book went on. I think I definitely entered the sunk cost fallacy at around the 45% mark, but I just kept going. I wish it had been done better. Thank you for checking out my video! 💜
They say write what you know. So when I write, it's hard not to include sa in my stories. I'm slowly moving away from it but it is present in my first stories.
I think if you are writing a story that includes SA for a purpose and it adds something, then those are important stories to tell. What I was talking about is a specific trope that only adds things like SA to stories for shock or plot motivation without any real narrative purpose. I've read plenty of stories with violence, including SA that I found meaningful. It all depends on how it's presented. Thank you for watching! 💜
I think we need all kinds of women representation in books,the good, the bad and the ugly. I love that there are so many awesome female authors writing different kinds of women. So no complain here.
I agree with you. I'm just saying that the "bad" or "ugly" doesn't always have to be shoehorned scenes of se*ual violence that serve no purpose other than shock value. The minimum requirement for those scenes is empathy for what you are presenting to readers. Most of the time that isn't done. That's all I'm saying. 💜
Agree completely. … These experiences do not make anyone stronger, they are designed to cripple and they do, behind whatever facade you erect or however you dissociate. These days I refuse to see dramas, films, ballets, operas and read books involving these (back or front) stories. Why? Apart from being triggering, it is because the reality is they display gratuitous misogynistic cruelty as entertainment, dressed up hypocritically as “reality” or “education” or “meaningful”. Playwrights, choreographers , lyricists or authors using these scenarios might think or claim or even believe it gives their works street cred or depth but they don’t. Healing from assault is a deep process far more mysterious and interesting than revenge or becoming a bully yourself or religious mumbo jumbo. Anyway. :)
Exactly! I always try to avoid them, but sometimes it's not made clear that this is in the story. I know I've been fooled plenty of times and I'm sure it will happen again. All I can do is point it out and explain why it's something we need less of. As I said, there are soooo many other options for women in stories. Thanks for watching! 💜
I agree with some of the points but i dont think it's a lazy trope, specifically the revenge trope. I don't like when the portrayal of SA is gratuitous, or written by men, or shoved in there for shock value/ as a plot device for someone to save a female character, but it can be cathartic/like wish fulfilment to vicariously live through someone who is able to take revenge in a badass way as someone who cannot. As long as SA is a lived experience for most women, it will be in some of the stories we tell.
I understand what you mean, and I agree with what you are getting at for the most part. However, I think any trope can be done lazily, which is why I listed out how this trope is done lazily in stories. I agree that there are some excellent stories out there that depict this kind of violence towards women, and they are important in showcasing what real women go through. Heck, one of my favorite films of 2020 was Promising Young Women, and I will stand by that; it was a film that did it mostly right. Even though I agree there are outliers in this trope, and I can and do enjoy them, I can also state that this trope is most commonly done without forethought and is often shoehorned into these stories as an afterthought. It's when there is no need to have se*ual violence, but the writer needs to have the woman do something, and the go-to is gRape. That is all I'm trying to point out. This lazily executed trope is common enough in film and literature that multiple academic papers have been written on the subject. I just want authors to write more stories about women that don't include se*ual violence because it doesn't need to be included every time. I honestly just feel really passionate about it, and when I read two books that had similar plots, but one used this trope for no reason, I just felt the need to share my thoughts on it. Thank you for sharing yours, and I hope you enjoyed the video! 💜
@Witchy_Reads I enjoyed the video! I think you might like this show called Blue Eye Samurai on N3tfl1x - revenge story but not driven by SA. You also get to see different types of female strength through the side characters :) Promising Young Woman is also one of my fave movies, because the ending gutted me but felt like it made sense Tw: lots of violenc3 and dark themes in Blue Eye Samurai Also I'm writing my words weird because YT has blocked this comment thrice, I suspect for mentioning another platform - or maybe my net is just bad 🤣
This video is great! I thoughtful and relevant. Thanks for your point, I do adore a lot of these female characters who are getting their revenge, but I don't think that that needs to be the only way. Obviously people can become self-empowered as a resolved of a multitude of events. I really appreciate it when you pointed it out. How survivors are a mess. I think that's very salient. I always tell people it's a capitalist lie that we have to suffer in order to produce art. It's just a way of making us more complacent with her suffering. And I think that idea speaks to what you're saying here
Thank you! I'm glad you liked the video and related to the topic. This is one of the major tropes that I want to keep calling out because of how bad it is and how often it is used. Thank you for watching! 💜
There's an episode in the EXCELLENT series Barry where a female character gets the opportunity to write a movie script with a celebrated male writer. And once the guy learns that our character wants to do an empowerment story, he immediately jumps to stories suggesting the brutalization of women and the strength they gain from it and our charater is like.....shit!
I've heard good things about that show and have been meaning to watch it. It's wild that people still don't think this is a thing that commonly happens. It was a whole plotline in a TV show! 😅 Thanks for watching! 💜
I'm definitely late to the party, but thank you for the video! This reminds me of another trope that drives me crazy=the inclusion of misogyny in fantasy novels. Magic exists and dragons fill the sky, but we're still discriminating against women? And it often serves no purpose, it's automatically included as if sexism in a fantasy world would look the same way it does in reality...
@@joyc.e.7511 You are never too late! I completely agree with you about the misogyny in fantasy. So many times it feels like they set it in a medieval setting simply to justify SA and violence because "that's how it was back then" Uh, what, back when? It's fantasy! Looking at you Game of Thrones! I'm glad you liked the video! 💜
Hello there..initially my thoughts are, what my thoughts often are, there are many books and many stories and there’s room for all of them. Like when I see people upset about books that take place during the pandemic, I think it’s important, especially for those that will read them decades from now. I appreciate history in my books. So, initially I’m not agreeing with you. But I did like and subscribe, because I instantly like you and respect how you come across (not to sound shallow, but that’s first impressions, and I always support smaller booktubers, I know every sub counts for monetization). Im reminded of They Never Learn by Layne Fargo though. Everyone loved that book. I didn’t, but I don’t know if I disliked it for the same reasons you’re discussing here. It just felt mediocre, no depth, just a typical thriller, that happened to have an “unhinged woman” MC. But I think about my real life. After an abusive relationship that I had to crawl out of, I didn’t imagine violence against him. The relationship, not him, but the pain of so much that happened during that time, both from him and from our child that was born very sick, I was empowered. But not to be violence. I guess im boring lol, I was empowered to get my Masters degree. And it felt like empowerment. The more I learned, the more I got good grades, I used to always think, “I’m free,” “Knowledge is freedom.” But if violence against women is what we so badly need to end in society, how is violence against men any better? Such a great, thoughtful video, thank you for sharing your convictions on this topic. It’s an important, even a vital, discussion. And there are many great men out there, I wonder how they feel when there’s so many “good for her, women revenge” novels out there and people online glamorizing them? I haven’t read it yet, but I wonder how you would feel about Any Man by Amber Tamlyn. It reverses the trope. I definitely plan to read it, I just need to be in the right head space. I actually struggle a lot with serial killer novels because of the some of the reasons you’ve listed. Like the violence just for violence. I love thrillers, I love horror, but I need more substance. For example I read Suffer the Children by Craig DiLouie last year and LOVED it. As a mom who almost lost her child I felt it so deeply. I saw criticisms that parents wouldn’t do that. Oh no no no, you go through the pain of losing your child, and they come back? You would do absolutely anything, I know this in my bones. Maybe at some point you’d start to question, but not for some time. Those weren’t spoilers, they are all in the synopsis. And often things that are seen as non violence can be even more scary. One of the kids says he smells toast before he passes, that creeped me out so much. Anyways, thanks if you’ve read this far, and thank you for your convictions. It’s kind of ironic that we want less violence, but we are constantly reading about violence against women, and how that violence drives them to commit more violence.
Hi! I agree with you that there should be space for all kinds of stories that represent different struggles. I'm just wanting these kinds of tropes to be taken more seriously and with empathy for the real world scenarios on which they are usually based. I'm glad you found my video engaging and informative! 💜
Great video, great argument! If you enjoy powerful women characters and like some historical and fantasy from time to time, I would recommend the works of Nicola Griffith. Spear is a queer retelling of one particular part of the Arthurian tales, Hild and Menewood are historical novels focusing on the life of Saint Hilda of Whitby and if something more realistic is up your alley then So Lucky about living and coming to terms with chronic illness is a really brilliant book.
Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed the video! I just looked up Nicola Griffith and her books sound amazing! Thank you for the recommendations!!! Currently adding to my TBR 😊
This was an interesting take, and possibly somewhat of a Hot take if I'm honest, because very few woman point out the flaws in story tropes like this. Your review on such cliche's was spot on, and I look forward to more of your analysis in the future despite this video already being on the older side. But there is one thing missing from why I feel the tropes are lazy, that you didn't seem to zoom in on at all. WHich is Most stories lifting up woman, lack the ability and creativity to do it without dismantling MEN as a whole. Men are made to either look like Monsters, idiots, or obstacles. It's almost like you cant empower woman without destorying the opposite sex, which is why it's such a woman specific demographic, teaching woman that men are their enemies. And if they aren't, it's only because they want to sleep with you smh. The whole thing takes the complexities of being a human, and overly simpliefies it, which is what I think worsens the literary space. Which quite frankly frightens me because I'm looking to be published there. But anyway, can't wait till the day your analyzing my take in this saturated line-up. Can't wait.
It's interesting that you haven't seen other breakdowns of tropes on the BookTube side of UA-cam. I would say there are far more than a few women who have done something similar and I'm sure do a better job than me. I'm glad you enjoyed my analysis on the empowerment through violence trope. I know I did briefly mention that it can affect men, but I would argue it is used against women characters at minimum 80% times more. This isn't accurate data, but based purely on my reading a lot of books and coming across it quite a bit. The thing with this trope is what you are claiming (that it dismantles men) is not accurate to the majority of stories that use it. In fact, a lot of times violence against women is specifically used to empower men by either having them being flagged as "morally grey" or "the hero." On the flip side of that argument (that you can't empower women without destroying the opposite sex) I would have to disagree. I have yet to come across a story where 1. this trope was utilized and the man saw any kind of consequence for it outside of maybe the woman getting revenge through her own personal means. In other words, he is never ostracized or punished by society as a whole, just by the woman he wronged. 2. A story empowers a woman without using this trope and it does so by dismantling a character of the opposite sex. One of the books in this very video has two women being empowered throughout the narrative without using this trope and neither is done at the expense of a man. I'm not discounting your assertion that books like you describe exist, I just don't believe they are the norm. I would argue that more women would rather have stories of empowerment that don't involve men whatsoever. But the fact is both women and men exist in the world, so stories without one or the other are more rare, but between the options, I would say men come out on top more times than not whatever the scenario might be. All that aside, I do love touching on and dissecting tropes in books and media (it's what I want my channel to mostly be about), so if I do ever come across a book that does such a thing, it'll be interesting to see what my breakdown of it will be. Thank you for watching 💜
You make a great point. I think you'll get more views if you cut the video down to about 10 min. I am trying to write a book myself. The main character is female, Texan, but she is abroad and needs to find the courage to confront the tropes about foreigners she has learned and the idea that many Americans have that they are rotten at learning languages. And for that, she either needs to be in love (a big distraction from the above goals) or to be so terrified of something that she feels unable to leave because tackling those goals is a big hurdle. The backstory, which the story reveals only marginally, is that her marriage failed after her husband joined a cult which holds that a wife must obey her husband (obviously not their original relationship) and that there is no divorce. The cult is never named but they do have branches in other cities. These other cult members have tracked her down in order to convince her to return to her husband (a failure to believe in the power of God), hence her flight to a place she doubts they have any members. There is no physical violence, but who likes 'No' to be ignored? So she is a bit paranoid, but she does not meet any members in the book. The society she moves to is matriarchal (yes, they do exist, and I do not mean women acting like men, but she is not aware of this situation. It may not be mentioned in the book because the question of who has the power is a male issue, not a female one.) and so help will be given by the women she meets. I do not want her distracted by romance in this book as that is not the main point and the society is matriarchal (which I cannot change, even if I wanted to), hence the female protagonist. A male-female relationship tends to develop sexual tension and I want to avoid that. In the end, she regains enough self-confidence to return home and file for divorce. So, the question is whether that is far enough from the violence trope (emotional or psychological in this case). Can you suggest a third alternative? Since this matriarchy has a minimum wage a third that of the US, it is not logical that she would be adamant about moving for economic reasons. International employers pay local wages and do not require a knowledge of the local language. So, that is off the table. Curiosity is not strong enough to motivate that amount of effort, unless she is abnormal and I want an average person, not a superhero. Thanks
Thanks for checking out my channel and my video! 💜 I read through your synopsis and I just want to clarify, are you asking for a motivation for the WMC on her leaving her husband or going back? Sorry, it just reads as a little convoluted and I want to make sure I'm understanding your question correctly.
Always good to ask for clarification. You made an extremely valid point that violence is greatly overused as a motivator for women, esp. in regards the depth of description. It is like the scenes are being written for sadomasochists. It has to be said, however, that there is also a great deal of intermale violence nowadays. I come more from The Shawshank Redemption era when violence was referenced rather than described in great detail. And I realised that my protagonist's palpable paranoia fit into the category. You are quite correct in saying that a person who has experienced such violence is going to react differently than I do, which is something I had missed, but wish to remedy post-haste. The problem is that the protagonist needs to move to a place, which her childhood society (The name Texas is clear enough and I grew up there.) has taught her is inhabited by disgusting, worthless people. She needs to confront these ghosts from her past and learn a language which has very little in common with English, one which almost no one is able to learn unless motivated by love (more likely, taught correctly by a partner). But I am tired of the trope that all women are obsessed by sex and/or love. I do not want to write a romance because I do not see women as sex objects, but as normal people. How can you not in a matriarchy? And my question for you was that if a threat of some sort of violence and the issue of romance were taken off the table, what motivation is left? Ancestry does not work; grandchildren of refugees are not motivated enough to learn the language. Few even bother to visit from anywhere in the world. Ideas??? @@Witchy_Reads
And the reason she goes back home is that she finally feels self-confident enough to confront the problem head-on, instead of leaving it hanging over her head the rest of her life. The self-confidence is not because her new friends told her, 'You go, Girl.' but because she accomplished something most people don't even have to courage to start, let alone finish. Most people would have moved in with mama, but her estranged husband's friends looked there first. So, despite a loving family, she has to leave. Coming from a broken home and being unwanted are other overused tropes. And she has accomplished nothing previously in life because the Texas education system is weak and she is still young, i.e., had no opportunities yet. In other words, she is ignorant and inexperienced, not stupid. She is a good person who acted honorably but found herself in a really bad place anyway, and overcame the challenges. If you could offer an alternative bad place that would motivate her to step so far out of her comfort zone, I would love it.
Skimming thru the text, I see I had already pared it to just vague paranoia. The violence is implied against the male character in her thoughts, so one might surmise that she has also experienced some herself or witnessed it, but nothing more.
@@aSnailCyclopsNamedSteve Okay, I think I have a reasonably good understanding of what you are asking. Friendship is always good if you are looking for other motivations and still need it to revolve around love. There needs to be more decent female friendships in books. I also enjoy the idea of found family. It sounds like she needs to expand beyond her small bubble, and wanting to grow outside of that and leave your "comfort zone" is also motivation enough. Wanting to be educated so as not to end up ignorant like those around her is a solid motivation. It all comes down to how you want to present your story and how you write it. That all hinges on you, but I hope I have helped you at least consider a few other options. Have a good day, and happy writing and reading to you!
I respect your view and many points made are valid. However, the reality of female the experience is within these subjects. It may not be true for all women for the specific events within these books but to ignore the reality of it is leaning towards what happen with the Star Wars tragedy. Mary Sue complex. If the events make you uncomfortable that’s a you problem and not a book problem. Women deal with these issues everyday-especially in a historical context and regardless of the severity of the events are, struggle creates strength. Believing anything else or wanting anything else is naive and also bad writing. Plus, you’re invalidating my experience as an individual. Empowerment comes from struggle and the worse the struggle the greater the empowerment. This can also be seen in books with male protagonists. It just leans toward what men deal with more often.
I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear enough in my video that I understand that violent acts are very real and can be part of the female experience. What I am talking about is when a writer can't adequately express that violence in a novel and simply does it to "punish" or "motivate" the woman when there is absolutely no need to. This is an ongoing problem in literature. Expressing a desire to use different kinds of struggles is not advocating for characters to be a Mary Sue; far from it. Other struggles exist. I listed them in my other comment. As far as Star Wars goes, if you are talking about Rey being a Mary Sue, I hate to break it to you, but Luke was one as well. I fully do not believe that the greater the struggle, the greater the empowerment. Not all humans work that way, and most would say going through trauma did not make them stronger. That's why many hate the term "survivor." I apologize if my video invalidated your experience. I do not know you or what you went through, but I am empathetic to your story. I express in my video that stories such as yours are important to tell and should be told well. That is what I am advocating for.
@@Witchy_Reads well we will just decide to go our separate ways because there is plenty of evident out there that points to Luke not being a Mary Sue and I recommend taking a look at it outside your Echo chamber. One thing being that he had work for what he accomplished, he wasn’t unrealistically gifted and the plot didn’t bend to his whim. Also, my only point is that these things are appearing in fiction because they have happen more often than not and if you want different you can write your own novel. Other than that, I will leave with this final statement, if we can either have equality or we can have special treatment as women. We can’t have both.
@@MarthaPennington88 I can agree to disagree, but I pride myself on being open and do not believe I live in an echo chamber. There are many academic papers about sexual violence against women in literature being used to motivate female characters. It is a thing, I'm sorry if you believe women can't have other struggles; that's not reality. And I can agree that as the series went on, Luke became less of a Mary Sue, but in A New Hope, he very much was. He literally had one lesson and had pretty much mastered the force to destroy the Death Star. The difference in characters is that Luke had better writers who fixed that issue in the later films.
How is she ignoring reality, when she out right speaks to how gr*pe is still a huge problem? She's speaking to the lazy way violence is used in the stories of female characters. None of the nuance of how it actually affects a woman that goes through it, only speaking to the supposed empowerment.
@@Witchy_ReadsI really appreciated your take on all of this. Violence, especially sexual violence, is a reality women have lived with throughout history, yes. And it's important to acknowledge that. But nothing about my own experiences made me 'stronger', nor anyone I know who also went through something similar. Sometimes it's important to the story, and sometimes it genuinely is just lazy writing. (Though I do have one disagreement with you - experiencing a healthy relationship healed me far more than years of therapy ever did.) Also, I'm so tired of women being labeled Mary Sues when men are presented the same way all the time and almost never criticized for it (e.g., in almost every action movie ever). We've been conditioned to accept that it's normal for men to display extraordinary abilities, but when women do it, they're labeled with something that has a negative connotation.
Just to clarify, I am speaking primarily about S*xual Violence. I'm also talking about including it unnecessarily with no other benefit to the plot or characters than to illicit a wanted behavioral change for the woman. I'm sorry if that is not made more apparent in the video, but I didn't want to continue saying the word "S*xual" to avoid UA-cam's pearl clutching😱. I understand that there are other violent struggles against characters used in writing. This is a particular trope that I am talking about, and how writers tend to take the lazy way out in presenting it. I hope that clears things up a bit. Thank you! 💜💜
I think you made this clear enough, considering you explicitly stated “violence against women just for the sake of violence is lazy writing”, and as a writer, I absolutely agree. Especially since you then go on to say that having violence is a character’s backstory is not inherently bad, since that is unfortunately a part of many people’s pasts. But there’s a huge difference in honest, authentic writing about trauma recovery and the Mad Lib formulaic “man SAs woman and it’s just the pep she needed to TURN HER LIFE AROUND”. The latter is very much aligned with the misogynistic narrative that a penis can literally change who a woman is inherently, and it’s exhausted and annoying.
To that end, I know a lot of writers, myself included, draw on trauma to write, and I love and encourage the use of a creative outlet to process. That being said, it’s my humble suggestion to anyone wanting to write for an audience to consider whether you are writing from a healed place; trauma cycles are perpetrated in many, many ways, and I think too many authors are still processing their trauma in on-page, which is fine in private writings. But having a platform as an author comes with a level of responsibility for not reinforcing and protruding trauma cycles among your fans, and that includes harmful, outdated tropes.
I think I get what you're saying, and I agree. There needs to be a distinction between thriller-story writing, or horror-writing, and "Women's Empowerment" writing. A woman isn't empowered only because she became stronger after an act of violence, and associating the two shouldn't be so commonplace that we are consistently waiting for the other shoe to drop in books about women's' internal growth. Edit: I also think that it's not always violent acts that result in horrific outcomes for people, and I feel that a lot of these stories reinforce the idea that there aren't multiple kinds of abusive behavior.
@@Solonneysa Yes! That is exactly what I am saying! Thank you! 💜
@@Witchy_Reads I wonder if you might like "A Fistful of Sky" by Nina Kiriki Hoffman or "Pigs in Heaven" by Barbara Kingsolver if you don't know of them already. It's been a while since I read them but they stuck in my mind as challenging a lot of tropes
@@Solonneysa 👀 book recs! Yes please! I haven't heard of either, but I will definitely look into them. Thank you!!! 💜
I wonder what those authors would say when asked if they think that a man which is sexually assaulted is also bound to be empowered and if so why we nver see that kind of story...
It does make one think. Unfortunately, there is a trope for this, that I find just as reprehensible. Usually when it's a man it's played for laughs, which is just baffling to me. That trope also needs to go.
I think Weyward shows the generational cycle that almost every woman will experience violence. It hardly skips a generation, and it is sometimes inevitable to an existence and world not made for us.
I think we just as well deserve stories that don't need violence to act as a catalyst for strength, growth, and character development. However, often women experience terrible violence, and usually they do grow in spite of what happened to them.
I have been a victim of Child SA, and r@pe as a teen to my young adulthood. I have experienced many occurrences of sexual, physical, and emotional violence. Sadly, my choices are to spite what happened to me. That is reality. I make choices based on the person I am now, who is different from the person before it occurred. Parts of me died, and I regrew to spite the world. Resiliency and resistance is reality (as well as the phases of sorrow, mourning, and healing). In a feminist world, we would be able to live independent of the actions done to us, but in this world we are subject to it's influence. I would like media I can relate to, that offer me solace in those lived experiences, and lead me towards reflection and healing. Sometimes that doesn't mean a story where nothing bad happens, sometimes it is looking at the bad right in the face, and recognizing I'm not alone in it.
I'm so sorry about everything you went through, truly. That is awful and no one should suffer through something like that. I understand what you mean about getting some kind of solace out of stories you can relate to when it comes to that experience. I agree that those stories are important. And there are plenty of stories that utilize this trope well.
I think where I may have not been as clear in my reasoning is that my main issue is when this trope is misused and further hurts rather than provides comfort. I also think we don't have enough stories where this isn't the norm for women. While I understand the world we live in, most books are meant to be an escape, so when they are mostly filled with se*ual violence towards women, it gets frustrating. We should be seen as more than that, especially in stories where women are the MCs and the plot is not served by having this trope added to it. Which, I don't believe Weyward's plot was. That's all I was trying to say.
@@Witchy_Reads
Thank you for the kind and thoughtful response.
I understand that. I agree we also need escapes to how our world is, that is why I read tons of fantasy. I try to branch out into lots of genres and also more cozy books (since they are less likely to show trauma in such bold ways).
I think your criticism is very valid towards this trend of almost shock trauma p0rn in books, but I can also see the argument for traumatic events as development. I think there is a ton of nuance between what may be helpful and harmful for individual readers.
I really enjoyed your video, as it is giving me another way to analyze what I'm reading, and being mindful and present about what I'm consuming.
I mean, yeah, it's an old trope, and I avoid it in my writing as best I can, though I write fantasy and violence is a part of adventuring. Still, I avoid sexual or discriminatory violence, because frankly, while overcoming trauma does show strength of character, there's no reason that it has to be an attack on the sex of the character. Physical strength slays dragons, but emotional strength can tame them is how I try to look at it.
I like this and I agree. I think I perhaps could have been more clear in my video in that my main issue is sexual violence or violence that primarily focuses on the sex of the person, as you said. But I didn't want to keep bleeping out that word because UA-cam likes to pearl clutch. I had hoped that point would come across without it. 😅
Thank you for checking out my video! 💜
This video needs 3000x more views than it has.
Thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoyed the video! 💜
An interesting video! It's got me thinking about how I've written and empowered the women in my current fanfiction WIP. I have two female characters who are abused by men: one in backstory and one on the page. My approach with these portrayals was restraint. While one character's abuse by her regent is only alluded to in her internal monologue, the abuse we do see on the page involves a husband poisoning and gaslighting his wife, but the abuser still respects a lot of his victim's boundaries and asks for consent (and respects her no). This isn't to make him "likeable", but because he doesn't NEED to be violent with her beyond what I've already outlined. I also think we need more absolutely detestable villains who never sink that low, not because they should be celebrated for doing the bare minimum, but because it makes IRL grapists look even worse.
There's also the fact that the character being abused is revealed to have a lot of secret badass training, but she struggles to use it against her abuser in part because she still loves him, and the fact that he still holds a lot of the cards. Any time she stands up to him usually leads to more gaslighting, to the point where she realises that the only way she can move forward is if she runs away. Only then does her journey of empowerment (or more like her return from disempowerment) begin, coming from her healing and gaining a wider perspective on her experiences. Basically, she sees the harm her husband is wrecking havoc on her kingdom and another, and spends Book 2 doing what she can to undo it. Part of it is driven by her self-blame complex (believing that this would have never happened if she hadn't allowed herself to be soft-usurped by her husband), but a lot of it is driven by the love and sense of duty she has towards her citizens. By the time she confronts him near the end, she has a better idea of what kind of person he is, so even though she almost falls back under the spell of his abuse, it's just enough for her to take him down. I feel like it's important to show her continuing to struggle to be around him even after all her growth, in addition to said growth being attributed to something other than him.
In my opinion, having not read your WIP, it sounds like you are doing the heavy lifting here. Your character has traits and goals outside of the violent acts she has dealt with.
Love for her Kingdom and her people, her sense of duty, her training that precedes her relationship with her husband, etc.
I am fine with violence and even sexual violence in books as long as the right amount of care is given to developing that plot point. And from the sound of it, you are.
Thank you for checking out my video. 💜
👏👏👏 couldn't agree more, I don't understand what 'growth through trauma' or 'overcoming adversity' feels like they needs to be in so many stories as the basis for lead characters arc's, and from what i have read it is definitely a more glaring issue with lead characters that are female. A character can be strong or empowered without this, it potentially teaches that the only reason these characters grow and become strong is through bad things happening to them first, and the fact it is so prevalent is a bit worrying tbh. Another great video on something you don't see spoken about that often. Keep up the great work (sorry for war and peace)
Thank you! It really does feel like a sweeping issue in stories across all media, where writers don't know how to facilitate growth for their character(s) without putting them through something violently traumatic.
It's also a bummer that I have to be extra mindful of it if I want to read books with a WMC.
I just hope this stops being the norm in the near future.
I'm glad you liked the video! 💜
Well that’s how people grow when bad things happen to them. This is a fact of the human experience. What you’re expressing is a Mary Sue which isn’t realistic. People don’t grow without struggle.
@@MarthaPennington88 respectfully i don't agree, whilst struggle is a catalyst for growth, it certainly is not the only way that growth can occur. Education and positive life experiences are just as much a cause of people growing and excelling, more to the point, struggle is just as likely to break people or leave them diminished depending on what events they have been through.
@@MarthaPennington88 Except that there are many different struggles that don't involve SA, gRape, or any other form of traumatic violence. Being poor is a struggle, familial expectations are a struggle, job loss is a struggle, and moving to a new place can be a struggle. These are only just a handful of examples. There are many more. Not wanting women in literature to constantly suffer violence as a way to motivate them isn't calling for them to all be a Mary Sue.
@@vens_corner you’re free to disagree but I see it as a lack of experience in the real world. People do not change based on information proved. Or we wouldn’t have drug addicts or smokers. Changes happens when one is forced into That’s a psychological fact. Plus that’s comes down a lack resilience and it’s unfortunate reality. Not everyone can be empowered. Have a nice day.
I loved this review; you did a really great job explaining your reasoning and I really enjoyed the breakdown. Thank you for sharing :)
p.s. I don’t think you need to shorten your videos; plenty of people have grown off of longer content!
Thank you so much! I'm glad you enjoyed the video and got some interesting information out of it. 💜
And thank you for you input on the length of the videos. I do try to keep them in the 30-40 minute mark, but I don't want to sacrifice the information and the way I want to present it to shave off time. I honestly don't think this video could have been shorter given that I wanted to talk about the trope and review the two books. Considering all the info I had, I think I did fairly well. 😊
Thank you for voicing this, I had trouble describing why weyward bothered me so much when everyone else gave it glowing reviews. I thought I was just being dramatic by being bothered by the violence. I didn't find it hopeful or inspiring at all.
Yeah, reading Weyward was not the experience I was hoping for. It failed in every way narratively. The violence against women was completely unnecessary and gratuitous in some cases. I've seen a few others mention that they were disappointed, but couldn't exactly vocalize why. I'm glad my video is able to help with that. Thank you for watching! 💜
That intro got me absolutely HOOKED... to your channel! I'm absolutely excited to follow your book reading journey. I appreciate the care you gave this video.
Awww! Thank you for the kind words. I'm glad you enjoyed the video! 💜
Oh my gosh I loved this video! I never thought of that trope like that, but it also brings me back to some of the feminist books that had A LOT of violence in them that I couldn’t finish
Yes, it's crazy how prevalent this trope is in books marketed as "feminist" or "empowering." It's like a cruel bait and switch. I am glad you enjoyed the video, though. 💜
Thanks for the look at the two books; Weyward had been pitched to me in my feed ads but didn't pass my "read a few pages" test. This trope needs to be used very lightly and deftly if at all. As general trauma response, did anyone else read "The Life of Pi" as one big cluster of tension? The SA triggered growth and superpowers reminded me of a fantasy series I read decades ago that had a lovely depiction of meditative elves in touch with the spiritual fabric of the world through leylines. The element that led to my discarding the books was that the trigger to the process of humans starting to become one of these elves was trauma, the first book grape, others included a mistreated child, a veteran of war. It got too weighty in relation to the lovely parts, while undoubtedly helpful to some. All moods and acts do not have to be in all books.
Woah, that series sounds heavy. That seems overly excessive, and you're right; not every horrible act needs to be included just to superficially move the plot forward. Weyward definitely got harder to read as the book went on. I think I definitely entered the sunk cost fallacy at around the 45% mark, but I just kept going. I wish it had been done better.
Thank you for checking out my video! 💜
This is a great review! I was trying to figure out why Weyward was so exhausting for me to read, and your analysis made me feel seen.
Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed the video and that it was helpful. Exhausting is definitely the correct word for Weyward.
This annoyed and angered me in my formative years when I lived as a woman, and it pisses me off as a man now.
I completely understand that. As a person, how could it not? 💜
They say write what you know. So when I write, it's hard not to include sa in my stories. I'm slowly moving away from it but it is present in my first stories.
I think if you are writing a story that includes SA for a purpose and it adds something, then those are important stories to tell. What I was talking about is a specific trope that only adds things like SA to stories for shock or plot motivation without any real narrative purpose. I've read plenty of stories with violence, including SA that I found meaningful. It all depends on how it's presented. Thank you for watching! 💜
I think we need all kinds of women representation in books,the good, the bad and the ugly. I love that there are so many awesome female authors writing different kinds of women. So no complain here.
I agree with you.
I'm just saying that the "bad" or "ugly" doesn't always have to be shoehorned scenes of se*ual violence that serve no purpose other than shock value. The minimum requirement for those scenes is empathy for what you are presenting to readers. Most of the time that isn't done. That's all I'm saying. 💜
Agree completely. … These experiences do not make anyone stronger, they are designed to cripple and they do, behind whatever facade you erect or however you dissociate. These days I refuse to see dramas, films, ballets, operas and read books involving these (back or front) stories. Why? Apart from being triggering, it is because the reality is they display gratuitous misogynistic cruelty as entertainment, dressed up hypocritically as “reality” or “education” or “meaningful”. Playwrights, choreographers , lyricists or authors using these scenarios might think or claim or even believe it gives their works street cred or depth but they don’t. Healing from assault is a deep process far more mysterious and interesting than revenge or becoming a bully yourself or religious mumbo jumbo. Anyway. :)
Exactly! I always try to avoid them, but sometimes it's not made clear that this is in the story. I know I've been fooled plenty of times and I'm sure it will happen again. All I can do is point it out and explain why it's something we need less of. As I said, there are soooo many other options for women in stories. Thanks for watching! 💜
I agree with some of the points but i dont think it's a lazy trope, specifically the revenge trope. I don't like when the portrayal of SA is gratuitous, or written by men, or shoved in there for shock value/ as a plot device for someone to save a female character, but it can be cathartic/like wish fulfilment to vicariously live through someone who is able to take revenge in a badass way as someone who cannot. As long as SA is a lived experience for most women, it will be in some of the stories we tell.
I understand what you mean, and I agree with what you are getting at for the most part. However, I think any trope can be done lazily, which is why I listed out how this trope is done lazily in stories.
I agree that there are some excellent stories out there that depict this kind of violence towards women, and they are important in showcasing what real women go through. Heck, one of my favorite films of 2020 was Promising Young Women, and I will stand by that; it was a film that did it mostly right.
Even though I agree there are outliers in this trope, and I can and do enjoy them, I can also state that this trope is most commonly done without forethought and is often shoehorned into these stories as an afterthought. It's when there is no need to have se*ual violence, but the writer needs to have the woman do something, and the go-to is gRape. That is all I'm trying to point out.
This lazily executed trope is common enough in film and literature that multiple academic papers have been written on the subject. I just want authors to write more stories about women that don't include se*ual violence because it doesn't need to be included every time.
I honestly just feel really passionate about it, and when I read two books that had similar plots, but one used this trope for no reason, I just felt the need to share my thoughts on it.
Thank you for sharing yours, and I hope you enjoyed the video! 💜
@Witchy_Reads I enjoyed the video! I think you might like this show called Blue Eye Samurai on N3tfl1x - revenge story but not driven by SA. You also get to see different types of female strength through the side characters :) Promising Young Woman is also one of my fave movies, because the ending gutted me but felt like it made sense
Tw: lots of violenc3 and dark themes in Blue Eye Samurai
Also I'm writing my words weird because YT has blocked this comment thrice, I suspect for mentioning another platform - or maybe my net is just bad 🤣
yeah, 100% agreed about the catharsis factor
This video is great! I thoughtful and relevant. Thanks for your point, I do adore a lot of these female characters who are getting their revenge, but I don't think that that needs to be the only way. Obviously people can become self-empowered as a resolved of a multitude of events. I really appreciate it when you pointed it out. How survivors are a mess. I think that's very salient. I always tell people it's a capitalist lie that we have to suffer in order to produce art. It's just a way of making us more complacent with her suffering. And I think that idea speaks to what you're saying here
Thank you! I'm glad you liked the video and related to the topic. This is one of the major tropes that I want to keep calling out because of how bad it is and how often it is used. Thank you for watching! 💜
There's an episode in the EXCELLENT series Barry where a female character gets the opportunity to write a movie script with a celebrated male writer. And once the guy learns that our character wants to do an empowerment story, he immediately jumps to stories suggesting the brutalization of women and the strength they gain from it and our charater is like.....shit!
I've heard good things about that show and have been meaning to watch it. It's wild that people still don't think this is a thing that commonly happens. It was a whole plotline in a TV show! 😅
Thanks for watching! 💜
Hi, love this content ... Keep it up...I am a amateur writer, so this helps me.
Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed my video and that it gave you some inspiration. That's always nice to hear. 💜 What genre do you like to write?
I'm glad that I'm able to discuss books and tropes in this way. Tropes like this need to be called out!
I'm definitely late to the party, but thank you for the video! This reminds me of another trope that drives me crazy=the inclusion of misogyny in fantasy novels. Magic exists and dragons fill the sky, but we're still discriminating against women? And it often serves no purpose, it's automatically included as if sexism in a fantasy world would look the same way it does in reality...
@@joyc.e.7511 You are never too late! I completely agree with you about the misogyny in fantasy. So many times it feels like they set it in a medieval setting simply to justify SA and violence because "that's how it was back then" Uh, what, back when? It's fantasy! Looking at you Game of Thrones! I'm glad you liked the video! 💜
Hello there..initially my thoughts are, what my thoughts often are, there are many books and many stories and there’s room for all of them. Like when I see people upset about books that take place during the pandemic, I think it’s important, especially for those that will read them decades from now. I appreciate history in my books. So, initially I’m not agreeing with you. But I did like and subscribe, because I instantly like you and respect how you come across (not to sound shallow, but that’s first impressions, and I always support smaller booktubers, I know every sub counts for monetization).
Im reminded of They Never Learn by Layne Fargo though. Everyone loved that book. I didn’t, but I don’t know if I disliked it for the same reasons you’re discussing here. It just felt mediocre, no depth, just a typical thriller, that happened to have an “unhinged woman” MC.
But I think about my real life. After an abusive relationship that I had to crawl out of, I didn’t imagine violence against him. The relationship, not him, but the pain of so much that happened during that time, both from him and from our child that was born very sick, I was empowered. But not to be violence. I guess im boring lol, I was empowered to get my Masters degree. And it felt like empowerment. The more I learned, the more I got good grades, I used to always think, “I’m free,” “Knowledge is freedom.”
But if violence against women is what we so badly need to end in society, how is violence against men any better?
Such a great, thoughtful video, thank you for sharing your convictions on this topic. It’s an important, even a vital, discussion.
And there are many great men out there, I wonder how they feel when there’s so many “good for her, women revenge” novels out there and people online glamorizing them?
I haven’t read it yet, but I wonder how you would feel about Any Man by Amber Tamlyn. It reverses the trope. I definitely plan to read it, I just need to be in the right head space.
I actually struggle a lot with serial killer novels because of the some of the reasons you’ve listed. Like the violence just for violence. I love thrillers, I love horror, but I need more substance.
For example I read Suffer the Children by Craig DiLouie last year and LOVED it. As a mom who almost lost her child I felt it so deeply. I saw criticisms that parents wouldn’t do that. Oh no no no, you go through the pain of losing your child, and they come back? You would do absolutely anything, I know this in my bones. Maybe at some point you’d start to question, but not for some time. Those weren’t spoilers, they are all in the synopsis.
And often things that are seen as non violence can be even more scary. One of the kids says he smells toast before he passes, that creeped me out so much.
Anyways, thanks if you’ve read this far, and thank you for your convictions. It’s kind of ironic that we want less violence, but we are constantly reading about violence against women, and how that violence drives them to commit more violence.
Hi! I agree with you that there should be space for all kinds of stories that represent different struggles. I'm just wanting these kinds of tropes to be taken more seriously and with empathy for the real world scenarios on which they are usually based. I'm glad you found my video engaging and informative! 💜
Great video, great argument! If you enjoy powerful women characters and like some historical and fantasy from time to time, I would recommend the works of Nicola Griffith. Spear is a queer retelling of one particular part of the Arthurian tales, Hild and Menewood are historical novels focusing on the life of Saint Hilda of Whitby and if something more realistic is up your alley then So Lucky about living and coming to terms with chronic illness is a really brilliant book.
Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed the video! I just looked up Nicola Griffith and her books sound amazing! Thank you for the recommendations!!! Currently adding to my TBR 😊
This was an interesting take, and possibly somewhat of a Hot take if I'm honest, because very few woman point out the flaws in story tropes like this. Your review on such cliche's was spot on, and I look forward to more of your analysis in the future despite this video already being on the older side. But there is one thing missing from why I feel the tropes are lazy, that you didn't seem to zoom in on at all. WHich is Most stories lifting up woman, lack the ability and creativity to do it without dismantling MEN as a whole. Men are made to either look like Monsters, idiots, or obstacles. It's almost like you cant empower woman without destorying the opposite sex, which is why it's such a woman specific demographic, teaching woman that men are their enemies. And if they aren't, it's only because they want to sleep with you smh. The whole thing takes the complexities of being a human, and overly simpliefies it, which is what I think worsens the literary space. Which quite frankly frightens me because I'm looking to be published there. But anyway, can't wait till the day your analyzing my take in this saturated line-up. Can't wait.
It's interesting that you haven't seen other breakdowns of tropes on the BookTube side of UA-cam. I would say there are far more than a few women who have done something similar and I'm sure do a better job than me.
I'm glad you enjoyed my analysis on the empowerment through violence trope. I know I did briefly mention that it can affect men, but I would argue it is used against women characters at minimum 80% times more. This isn't accurate data, but based purely on my reading a lot of books and coming across it quite a bit.
The thing with this trope is what you are claiming (that it dismantles men) is not accurate to the majority of stories that use it. In fact, a lot of times violence against women is specifically used to empower men by either having them being flagged as "morally grey" or "the hero."
On the flip side of that argument (that you can't empower women without destroying the opposite sex) I would have to disagree. I have yet to come across a story where 1. this trope was utilized and the man saw any kind of consequence for it outside of maybe the woman getting revenge through her own personal means. In other words, he is never ostracized or punished by society as a whole, just by the woman he wronged. 2. A story empowers a woman without using this trope and it does so by dismantling a character of the opposite sex. One of the books in this very video has two women being empowered throughout the narrative without using this trope and neither is done at the expense of a man.
I'm not discounting your assertion that books like you describe exist, I just don't believe they are the norm. I would argue that more women would rather have stories of empowerment that don't involve men whatsoever. But the fact is both women and men exist in the world, so stories without one or the other are more rare, but between the options, I would say men come out on top more times than not whatever the scenario might be.
All that aside, I do love touching on and dissecting tropes in books and media (it's what I want my channel to mostly be about), so if I do ever come across a book that does such a thing, it'll be interesting to see what my breakdown of it will be.
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You make a great point. I think you'll get more views if you cut the video down to about 10 min.
I am trying to write a book myself. The main character is female, Texan, but she is abroad and needs to find the courage to confront the tropes about foreigners she has learned and the idea that many Americans have that they are rotten at learning languages. And for that, she either needs to be in love (a big distraction from the above goals) or to be so terrified of something that she feels unable to leave because tackling those goals is a big hurdle. The backstory, which the story reveals only marginally, is that her marriage failed after her husband joined a cult which holds that a wife must obey her husband (obviously not their original relationship) and that there is no divorce. The cult is never named but they do have branches in other cities. These other cult members have tracked her down in order to convince her to return to her husband (a failure to believe in the power of God), hence her flight to a place she doubts they have any members. There is no physical violence, but who likes 'No' to be ignored? So she is a bit paranoid, but she does not meet any members in the book. The society she moves to is matriarchal (yes, they do exist, and I do not mean women acting like men, but she is not aware of this situation. It may not be mentioned in the book because the question of who has the power is a male issue, not a female one.) and so help will be given by the women she meets. I do not want her distracted by romance in this book as that is not the main point and the society is matriarchal (which I cannot change, even if I wanted to), hence the female protagonist. A male-female relationship tends to develop sexual tension and I want to avoid that. In the end, she regains enough self-confidence to return home and file for divorce.
So, the question is whether that is far enough from the violence trope (emotional or psychological in this case). Can you suggest a third alternative? Since this matriarchy has a minimum wage a third that of the US, it is not logical that she would be adamant about moving for economic reasons. International employers pay local wages and do not require a knowledge of the local language. So, that is off the table. Curiosity is not strong enough to motivate that amount of effort, unless she is abnormal and I want an average person, not a superhero. Thanks
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I read through your synopsis and I just want to clarify, are you asking for a motivation for the WMC on her leaving her husband or going back?
Sorry, it just reads as a little convoluted and I want to make sure I'm understanding your question correctly.
Always good to ask for clarification.
You made an extremely valid point that violence is greatly overused as a motivator for women, esp. in regards the depth of description. It is like the scenes are being written for sadomasochists. It has to be said, however, that there is also a great deal of intermale violence nowadays. I come more from The Shawshank Redemption era when violence was referenced rather than described in great detail.
And I realised that my protagonist's palpable paranoia fit into the category. You are quite correct in saying that a person who has experienced such violence is going to react differently than I do, which is something I had missed, but wish to remedy post-haste.
The problem is that the protagonist needs to move to a place, which her childhood society (The name Texas is clear enough and I grew up there.) has taught her is inhabited by disgusting, worthless people. She needs to confront these ghosts from her past and learn a language which has very little in common with English, one which almost no one is able to learn unless motivated by love (more likely, taught correctly by a partner). But I am tired of the trope that all women are obsessed by sex and/or love. I do not want to write a romance because I do not see women as sex objects, but as normal people. How can you not in a matriarchy?
And my question for you was that if a threat of some sort of violence and the issue of romance were taken off the table, what motivation is left? Ancestry does not work; grandchildren of refugees are not motivated enough to learn the language. Few even bother to visit from anywhere in the world. Ideas???
@@Witchy_Reads
And the reason she goes back home is that she finally feels self-confident enough to confront the problem head-on, instead of leaving it hanging over her head the rest of her life. The self-confidence is not because her new friends told her, 'You go, Girl.' but because she accomplished something most people don't even have to courage to start, let alone finish. Most people would have moved in with mama, but her estranged husband's friends looked there first. So, despite a loving family, she has to leave. Coming from a broken home and being unwanted are other overused tropes. And she has accomplished nothing previously in life because the Texas education system is weak and she is still young, i.e., had no opportunities yet. In other words, she is ignorant and inexperienced, not stupid. She is a good person who acted honorably but found herself in a really bad place anyway, and overcame the challenges. If you could offer an alternative bad place that would motivate her to step so far out of her comfort zone, I would love it.
Skimming thru the text, I see I had already pared it to just vague paranoia. The violence is implied against the male character in her thoughts, so one might surmise that she has also experienced some herself or witnessed it, but nothing more.
@@aSnailCyclopsNamedSteve Okay, I think I have a reasonably good understanding of what you are asking. Friendship is always good if you are looking for other motivations and still need it to revolve around love. There needs to be more decent female friendships in books. I also enjoy the idea of found family. It sounds like she needs to expand beyond her small bubble, and wanting to grow outside of that and leave your "comfort zone" is also motivation enough. Wanting to be educated so as not to end up ignorant like those around her is a solid motivation. It all comes down to how you want to present your story and how you write it. That all hinges on you, but I hope I have helped you at least consider a few other options. Have a good day, and happy writing and reading to you!
I respect your view and many points made are valid. However, the reality of female the experience is within these subjects. It may not be true for all women for the specific events within these books but to ignore the reality of it is leaning towards what happen with the Star Wars tragedy. Mary Sue complex. If the events make you uncomfortable that’s a you problem and not a book problem. Women deal with these issues everyday-especially in a historical context and regardless of the severity of the events are, struggle creates strength. Believing anything else or wanting anything else is naive and also bad writing. Plus, you’re invalidating my experience as an individual. Empowerment comes from struggle and the worse the struggle the greater the empowerment. This can also be seen in books with male protagonists. It just leans toward what men deal with more often.
I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear enough in my video that I understand that violent acts are very real and can be part of the female experience. What I am talking about is when a writer can't adequately express that violence in a novel and simply does it to "punish" or "motivate" the woman when there is absolutely no need to. This is an ongoing problem in literature.
Expressing a desire to use different kinds of struggles is not advocating for characters to be a Mary Sue; far from it. Other struggles exist. I listed them in my other comment. As far as Star Wars goes, if you are talking about Rey being a Mary Sue, I hate to break it to you, but Luke was one as well.
I fully do not believe that the greater the struggle, the greater the empowerment. Not all humans work that way, and most would say going through trauma did not make them stronger. That's why many hate the term "survivor."
I apologize if my video invalidated your experience. I do not know you or what you went through, but I am empathetic to your story. I express in my video that stories such as yours are important to tell and should be told well. That is what I am advocating for.
@@Witchy_Reads well we will just decide to go our separate ways because there is plenty of evident out there that points to Luke not being a Mary Sue and I recommend taking a look at it outside your Echo chamber. One thing being that he had work for what he accomplished, he wasn’t unrealistically gifted and the plot didn’t bend to his whim. Also, my only point is that these things are appearing in fiction because they have happen more often than not and if you want different you can write your own novel. Other than that, I will leave with this final statement, if we can either have equality or we can have special treatment as women. We can’t have both.
@@MarthaPennington88 I can agree to disagree, but I pride myself on being open and do not believe I live in an echo chamber. There are many academic papers about sexual violence against women in literature being used to motivate female characters. It is a thing, I'm sorry if you believe women can't have other struggles; that's not reality.
And I can agree that as the series went on, Luke became less of a Mary Sue, but in A New Hope, he very much was. He literally had one lesson and had pretty much mastered the force to destroy the Death Star. The difference in characters is that Luke had better writers who fixed that issue in the later films.
How is she ignoring reality, when she out right speaks to how gr*pe is still a huge problem? She's speaking to the lazy way violence is used in the stories of female characters. None of the nuance of how it actually affects a woman that goes through it, only speaking to the supposed empowerment.
@@Witchy_ReadsI really appreciated your take on all of this. Violence, especially sexual violence, is a reality women have lived with throughout history, yes. And it's important to acknowledge that. But nothing about my own experiences made me 'stronger', nor anyone I know who also went through something similar. Sometimes it's important to the story, and sometimes it genuinely is just lazy writing. (Though I do have one disagreement with you - experiencing a healthy relationship healed me far more than years of therapy ever did.) Also, I'm so tired of women being labeled Mary Sues when men are presented the same way all the time and almost never criticized for it (e.g., in almost every action movie ever). We've been conditioned to accept that it's normal for men to display extraordinary abilities, but when women do it, they're labeled with something that has a negative connotation.
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