BETTER images with good mount BALANCE
Вставка
- Опубліковано 3 сер 2024
- Mount balance sounds easy, right? Simply set the telescope and the counterweights so that they are well balanced against one another. But this is not enough! For most mounts, being slightly East-Heavy makes tracking better - we'll look at why in this video!
Today, I'm comparing my Canon 200mm f2.8L (mark 1) lens against my Refracting Telescope (275mm f4.5), and see how the camera lens fares when doing astrophotography!
Note that this is just with a single sample of this lens - lens can have a lot of variability. And some lenses are generally better than others and exhibit almost none of the issues I highlight in this video (the Samyang 135mm F2 lens in particular is supposed to be excellent, and my sample of it certainly was).
If you wish to support me and plan on buying astro equipment, please consider buy through OPT using this affiliate link! bit.ly/2OIw6jH
And for anything else (really anything you want to buy from Amazon, do it after clicking on the below link)!
Canon 200mm f2.8L II: amzn.to/2FvklvP
Follow me!
My Instagram: / cuivlazygeek
My Facebook page: / cuivlazygeek
#astrophotography - Наука та технологія
Thanks! This really clarified backlash for me, and even helped me partially fix it with your tip!
Great video. You’re one of my favorite UA-camrs, keep up the good work.
Thank you!! I love your nickname btw :D
Cuiv, your channel is the most useful educational astrophotography channel on YT. I can only guess that it requires a lot of time and effort to create all these videos. So BIG thanks for that.
My pleasure Karol, and thanks for the feedback!
Cuiv. Awesome videos. Keep them coming! I am so glad I found your channel!
Cuiv I follow a few Astro photographers and your anything but lazy. Your funny, knowledgeable I really appreciate all you do. Thank you
I appreciate that, thank you!
Good tips and information. Thanks for taking the time to make this 👍
Thank you again for the great explanation it's always very enlightening to understand in your words the basics of this Hobby.
Merci du Quebec.
Perfect explication about correction of backlash. Thank you.
Great video thanks a lot. It was a question for me since a long time. Thanks
Good video. Hanging additional weights by a thread is indeed asking for trouble! Have you thought of positioning your three weights with the outer weight (say) 5cm from the end stop and setting the other two weights for a perfect balance but also with a gap between the outer weight and the other two weights? Now you can move the weight out or in to get East heavy on each side of the Meridian in a controlled and quick way e.g. no more extra weights, just a controlled weight redistribution? Simon
Very helpful as usual, always wondered how east heavy I should be. It would be great if you could make a video on overall balancing with a newt since it is quite a bit harder than refractors/SCT because of the camera and accessories hanging on the side. Keep up the good work, I'm learning a lot from you!
The best explanations ever about this, as always! I have recently been having problems with my guiding and this will definetly help.
Also, does RA also have to be one side heavy?
Thank you!
Listen to this man. He understands how things work.
Cuiv, thank you. Great video.
Bravo pour vos videos, super informatives!
I've been using east heavy for a while and it does seem to give me better tracking and as a result I can take longer unguided images and end up throwing away less of my sub frames . Thanks for the explanation on how it all works
Awesome commentary Cuiv on the balance!
Thanks Ray!
Holy crap, weren't you just 3k subs a few weeks ago?! Congrats on 4k!
You're absolutely right, it's completely crazy! Thank you!
Już just explained problems that I have seen with my mount. Thanks!
Glad it helped!
Really interesting! Thanks. I am brand new to this and have only had an EQ mount for four days (the same one as you actually - EQ6R Pro). So all this is a very steep learning curve! I think I'll have to watch all your videos. :-)
Good luck!!
Hey, just noticed you passed 4000 subscribers now ! Roll on 1-man :)
Thanks David! It's just as crazy as ever!...
After a meridian flip or if I am finished imaging one one side of the mount and want to image on the other side, I simply move one of the counterweights upwards or downwards on the shaft so that the mount is still east sdie heavy, so the OTA will will be heavy on the east side of the mount instead of the counterweights. The trick is to experiment with the counter weight p[ositions *before* you boot up the mount and begin imaging. That way, you will already know which position to move the lower or upper counterweight to. Just simply, carefully, move the weight on the shaft. It's possible you may loose one sub due to vibration but that's a small price to pay. I hope that helps.
Thanks Cuiv! Great video as always! I know you mentioned seeing is difficult in your area (I can fully comprehend!), however as a follow up video curious if you're able to demonstrate in practical terms of PHD2 values of how guiding changes (for the better/worse) in East heavy vs neutral balance vs West heavy, etc?
I wish I could do that demonstration! But I'd need a mount and location where I can actually show that... Or I'd need to intentionally mess up with my mount backlash. Nooooooooo!
More good information I am in the process of seeing improvement having the mount counterweight side heavy. 👍
Thank you for the great video. I use a Weight Hanging On A String and I’ve never had any problems with it swinging in any wind that I'd consider reasonable for imaging. I have an MI 250 mount that has a 200mm disc as the output of the RA axis. I have a simple flange that guides the string from the circumference of the disc to vertical. I hang about 250g of lead shot in a vial from the string. The weight only hangs down about 32cm. I have not noticed any swing in any winds that I’d consider reasonable for imaging. This gives about 250 Nm (.2 ft lb) of East torque.
Thanks for the feedback! Great to know!
Another great video! I've been meaning to ask if your eq6-r pro is easily moved in RA even when the clutch is tight? I see a lot of people having the same question. Mine doesn't seem to ever slip while tracking (most likely due to my super excellent "Cuiv" balance technique!) but it is fairly easy to move when locked. Might make a good video on how to correct sticky/stiff axes and clutch locking adjustments. Thanks again for the great content!
Thanks Jonkjon! I have the same - the mount can be moved even with the RA clutch tight, but it does require a bit of force. It has never been an issue for me, even with a fairly large unbalance. Fixing that would likely involve opening the mount, and I probably don't want to do that!
I've seen a technique where a weight is hung from the body adding weight to the RA axis without changing your counterweight that solves this. I can't find the document now but I'll share if when I find it! Great video as always!
I've seen a picture of that as well! But a CW on dangling from a string just scares me!
08:00 I found the same, tested East heavy vs. "perfect" balance, and could find no difference in my guiding numbers with the EQ6R, before or after the flip. I think your reasoning that it is because the seeing is too terrible to see any difference is probably correct. I also wonder how much the weight of the payload makes a difference.
Interesting, and thanks for the feedback Nico! Others say it's because the EQ6R is stiff in the first place (which would certainly make sense). Definitely worth testing on each individual's mount!
Excellent video (again) and easy to understand east heavy. You have 3 weights and (I have two weights), I see there is a possibility of adding a small central weight. Slide central weight to be east heavy (clamp with a peg) and later, after a meridian shift, slide it the other way (clamp again). An automatic (manual) solution for "both side" zenith imaging? Knowing the exact balance, of course, provides the option of then becoming east heavy. Perhaps seeing the results between balanced and later east heavy to be "totally" convinced? Simon
Yep that works... but I usually am asleep by the time of the Meridian flip!
Hey Cuiv!
I just saw that video, and I may have a solution for you :)
What about balancing your mount with your perfect balance method (I'll check that one just after this!), and then add on your shaft a small weight, like .25kg, on the east side. This small weight you want to be able to slide it on the shaft, and also have a small threaded bar sticking out.
The idea is to put it on the shaft when the counterweights are eastward, or to screw it on the tube's rings when it's the tube facing east. Whenever you flip the meridian, then you also flip the side you put that weight, and move from perfectly(east)balanced to perfectly(west)balanced :D
Hello friend in faraway Japan
I think this is another beautiful one setting but you can go so far in perfection that you get a bit crazy; now I have taken the back lakh out of my HEQ5 and a few months ago also provided it with a belt drive and I do approximate a good balance and have actually never had blurry images even after a meridian flip personally I think that some things are exaggerated but every his opinion of course it is so that it is less noticeable at small focal distances.
Great videos!!! I’m a bit confused with ‘East heavy.’ Other UA-cam videos say that East Heavy should be where the OTA (on the East side of the mount) should be heavier, therefore moving the weights up (not down as you suggest)….you can see why I’m confused. Thanks for clarifying.
Very instructive video! Note on harmonic drives: Zero backlash yes, but they have elasticity/deformation, nothing is perfect :)
Exactly - they really want extremely frequent guide corrections too, like every 0.5s...
Thanks for the information! No back-lash allowed on this channel! :)
❤️❤️❤️
Hahaha, exactly! Thank you!
Thank you for this video. I just got a William Optics Triplet and I’m looking forward to start up again doing Deep Sky AP. I’ll be working with an AVX, lest see how that goes. I hope is better than a star tracker which is how I started out.
That's going to be a great setup - but it depends on your sample of the AVX. Some samples are just horrible (mine was - it was jumping in RA so much it wasn't even usable for planetary) while others work well for AP - I hope you have the latter category!
Cuiv, The Lazy Geek lest hope so, fingers crossed.
Hello Cuiv, again, Nice video. You helped me few month agon with N.I.N.A configuration and using. Thanks for that. Have you schedule a tutorial regarding dew "strategy" with newton telescope and guiding ? Could be nice :) Greetings from France
Thanks for the suggestion! The Vixen has been surprisingly dew resistant with it secondary, but yeah my SCT is another story... I need to think about it. I hope you're getting clear skies in France!
You do great work, thank you very much for your hard wok. Can you explain gain and offset? You’ve shown that for CMOS. color, 10 sec ex is ok, but what best gain & offset?
Check the main video on my UA-cam channel main page!
After I do a meridian flip I move the weight in so the setup is still east heavy.
That's the correct solution! IF you are still awake during the flip (I'm not, too lazy :D )
I always thought you should balance east heavy in RA, keeping DEC perfectly balanced. Or is it interchangeable?
A few weeks ago I was imaging the Bodes galaxy, the guiding was really good at least for me. Then I wanted to try M33 but the guiding was terrible. I don't remember if M33 was past the meridian but it would explain why the guiding was so bad.
Thanks for another interesting video. Can you (if not done already) give guidance on how tight the clutches on EQ6 and variants should be during use and should the mount be able to move if the clutch is tight but not in use? If so, what could be the cause of the movement or does it not matter because the motor controls the movement when in use. There is conflicting information about how right the clutch should be especially when upgrading from something like a Star Adventurer where the clutch needs to be tight.
I personally keep it tight - not going crazy on it, but just tight. I have never really stopped to think about it. My feeling is that this is another "meh" kind of thing...
@@CuivTheLazyGeek And this is why the conflicting information is such a pain in the butt. Most 'die hards' swear that it should not be tight. My setting is tight enough so it doesn't flop around by itself. So much behind the scenes stuff.
so in the southern hemisphere do you make it west heavy? Edit: it's the same for the southern hemisphere Thanks for another Great Video Cuiv
It is indeed the same in the Southern Hemisphere :)
I am still no fan of east-heavy. You are quite proficient with physics and mechanics and I love your vids, all your explanation are awesome IMHO. About east-heavy: it will make slewing a nightmare for the mount, it will change into west-heavy. Also I have experienced user having "saw-like" guiding in RA because the overdid the imbalancing. It is much better to follow your "remove eq6 play video" (which I did btw) and go with perfect balance. With perfect balance I get
Thanks for great explanation. How significant is this when using Az Gti mount being that it such a small mount with limited weight capacity?
The AZ-GTi being super stiff, I've actually not seen any difference one way or another! Still, if you get poor guiding in RA, it's worth investigating!
Hi Cuiv, what's your experience on 3rd axis balance on these mounts?
If I’m always viewing directly south or west of south, I assume the same logic suggests to keep the weight slightly East heavy but that means the CW would be moved to make the OTA side the heavy side…
Hey Cuiv, i was wondering if the placement of the camera and guidescope also matter. You have them opposite of each other, is this the best way to go?
It's intentional indeed - camera closer to the RA axis to minimize moment arm and CW, and guidescope is on the opposite side (and not on the side of the OTA) so that DEC is easy to balance!
If the target is in the South the rule is the same? A little more heavy on east?
I am amazed at how smooth the axes are on that mount. Like butter...ball bearings?
I actually have no idea! It's quite smooth though, and I did no tuning whatsoever.
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I checked the specifications and came up NADA. Reworking old photos from 2015 (didn't have photoshop) and I'm liking what I'm seeing. Check my FB.
Is there a way safely set up equipment and mounts to avoid the need to do meridian flips? I see some tripods have short pier extensions. Do they help?
My Az-eq5 was sold with a quirky pier/short tripod combination, I think in the EU it’s now sold with a “normal” full size tripod instead.
There is one Avalon mount that avoids the flip. Or Wedge mounted fork mounts. There's also those extremely ugly Takahashi "Meridian" mounts. And we also have the ugliest pier ever made: stargazerslounge.com/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=www.teleskop-express.de/shop/Bilder/shop/lacerta-montierung/lacerta-equatorial-pier-1000.jpg&key=f3ec21fb7636b8c7646379c7349e20265b0103e0ccb806ed16e5d0076a61c41d
Interesting on the AZ-EQ5...
Cuiv, The Lazy Geek That Lacerta pier. Wow! I found this video of it in action.
ua-cam.com/video/SzY4wHgVNLY/v-deo.html
Does the multi-star guiding that phd2 can do now help eliminate the seeing problems that prevent a good comparison of guiding using east heavy vs perfect balance?
Good point! Very possibly so
A suggestion...use your own technique to perfectly balance your Mount using a Clamp-on Amp Meter , then simply add a small , removable weight to the Balance Bar to tip the weight in favour of "East Heavy" . Doesn't have to be much but it is then an easily repeatable exercise . Cheers /SRK
Good idea, thank you!
I notice the position of your filter wheel. Maybe good to explain to your audience why it sits like this.(pointing to the mount or away from it)
You've skipped the DEC balancing act. RA horizontal and telescope vertical. It should stay there. Hence the wheel orientation.
Thanks for your video's. Must be a lot of effort. :-)
I think for EQ6-R it doesn't make much of a difference, because the mount is so stiff. Even with the clutch disengaged there is a considerable amount of force you need to apply to move each axis. iOptrons, on the other hand, are a different story. Perhaps for them an east-heavy or a west-heavy setup would work better.
You can loosen DEC very easy but RA is a pita on the eq6r
That's a very good point - the stiffness would prevent the mount from "floating". Oh my, could the stiffness be by design? :D
@@CuivTheLazyGeek show me an eq6-r doing 0.40'' total RMS and Ill believe you :-) until then, I'd say, regressie the bastard.
There is a common misconception and has passed into folk lore the drag is from the bearings and poor lubrication and you hear of people changing the bearings and substituting in the latest fad lubricant. Some even go so far as to include ceramic hybrid bearings at great cost which is a complete waste of money since ceramic bearings are no more accurate than conventional steel bearings. Ceramic bearings are only useful when running at extreme speed or high temperature, neither of which applies to a telescope mount. Any post work improvement is not because of the new parts, rather is a result of more careful meshing of the gears. The drag you speak of is drag between the main housing and the combined clutch/crown wheel which is made deliberately close. The clutch thumb screw merely prevents the crown wheel rotating when engaged. While it makes balancing a challenge the de-clutched drag has no impact on the tracking since the crown wheel is essentially locked to the main housing and the worm/motor which is on the output rotate around the crown wheel. Like Cuiv says the accuracy of the gear teeth and backlash free engagement of the crown wheel and worm along with accurate motor speed is what determines the tracking ability of a mount.
@@realmcerono I was able to loosen my RA, but I used a heavy duty strap wrench. I'm thinking about loosening it all the way, removing the bearing and regreasing it with some good grease. I understand why it's tight, but It really shouldn't be jerky.
Might want to do a video on weight placement on counter shaft such as more weight closer to OTA VS less total weights but located at the end of the counter weight shaft? Many have issues with this and for the longest time I thought it better the less weights farther down the shaft was better but recently I found information that the opposite is much better?
Thanks for the idea! Yes, more weight closer to the axis of rotation is better. A video is a good idea, I'll work on that!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I have a .pdf diagram that somewhat explains this I can send you if you have an email address. I think it came from the Astro Physics web site but could not verify that. Might be helpful...
Hello I noticed in one of your videos You use a ASI533mc pro , have You ever experienced while you take picture 2 round shape shadows in the picture similar to the desiccant tablets inside the camera?
It kind of sounds like dust shadows - I assume you're using a refractor if they're round shape shadows? Have you tried taking flat frames? Sorry if I'm completely mistaken...
Cuiv, The Lazy Geek thanks , been testing with dark ,bias and flat , the shadows show up with the light frames , and yes using a refractor but is very clean not dust at all , as well the camera very clean , thanks for your reply, by the way nice channel You have on YT
Hey Quiv have you tried using the EQ6-R Pro counterweight extension rod and using only 2 counterweights instead of your 3?
No, as that's not good practice. It's better to use more CWs closer to the center of rotation than fewer CWs further away, due to inertial moment arm! Refer to www.astro-physics.info/tech_support/accessories/mounting_acc/balance-to-optimize-guiding.pdf
Cuiv, The Lazy Geek But you also have to take into account stress of the added weight vs that movement arm. As the manufacturer of Schaefer premium astrophotography mounts in the late 80’s early 90’s .. for our mounts .. we recommended the opposite of Astro-Physics. On my own Schaefer mount I built for myself here live.staticflickr.com/7832/47398727711_c75631d748_c_d.jpg you can see I have a very long counterweight shaft by design .. all though I use a single 50lb counter weight these days about midway, but I’ve tried running more weight up high vs less down low over the years and saw no difference, only difference is my back is less sore with less weight 😬
A little fustrating to follow when most us are in the northern hemisphere, tracking targets from East to west... And you have your OTA pointing north
Cuiv I own a EQ6R pro aswell. East heavy on RA works fine but I am struggeling with DEC. I have to unbalance DEC a lot to the south otherwise my PHD2 calibration wont work because DEC cant reach the starting point. I did adjust my DEC backlash as good as I can but nothing I try is helping that issue other than unbalancing DEC south heavy a lot (I usually calibrate guiding at the Meridian and Equator before drift polar aligning). Any ideas?
If your using Eqmod there is a setting think it’s pulse guide for Ra and Dec default it’s set at 0.10 up these parameters to at least 0.70 for dec 0.50 0.60 ra see how that goes
Another thing is to make sure that the guide pulse length for calibration is sufficiently long for you.
There is a common misconception and has passed into folk lore the drag is from the bearings and poor lubrication and you hear of people changing the bearings and substituting in the latest fad lubricant. Some even go so far as to include ceramic hybrid bearings at great cost which is a complete waste of money since ceramic bearings are no more accurate than conventional steel bearings. Ceramic bearings are only useful when running at extreme speed or high temperature, neither of which applies to a telescope mount. Any post work improvement is not because of the new parts, rather is a result of more careful meshing of the gears. The drag spoken of is drag between the main housing and the combined clutch/crown wheel which is made deliberately close. The clutch thumb screw merely prevents the crown wheel rotating when engaged. While it makes balancing a challenge the de-clutched drag has no impact on the tracking since the crown wheel is essentially locked to the main housing and the worm/motor which is on the output rotate around the crown wheel. Like Cuiv says the accuracy of the gear teeth and backlash free engagement of the crown wheel and worm along with accurate motor speed is what determines the tracking ability of a mount.
Thanks for the precisions Rob!
This video is too informative. I have a question. Do I have to hit the center of gravity for the DEC axis? Or should I change the weight of the DEC axis according to the backlash?
It really depends on your backlash - I like to have DEC slightly unbalanced (like RA), but others like to leave it perfectly balanced...
A nice upgrade from Skywatcher would be if they would make the worm gears spring loaded....
Well, from what I saw in the AZ-GTi,,,, be careful what you wish for! :D
@@CuivTheLazyGeek there is a price difference off course... The way i see it is they should have the worm mounted in a housing (that only allows 1 direction of motion) that is pushed towards the worm with 2 screws with a spring over it. The screws should get you 95% of the way and the springs should serve as a flexible push, always pushing the gears snug, but allowing room to avoid binding and dealing with temp shrinking and expanding. Can't be that hard 😅
Can you not just slide the weights up the bar when the scope is on the East side (thus making East heavy still with the scope being the heavier side)? I have always done this and guiding has always been 0.5-0.7 on my NEQ6. Enjoying your channel, only just come across it :)
Oh yes, you absolutely can! But I'm using sleeping during the Meridian flip :D
Cuiv, The Lazy Geek Ahh yes...I still tend to sit out babysitting my rig still 👍
Best I've seen is getting correct balance, then place or switch a small bean bag on the eastside when it flips.
I just have a cheaper scope but balance is key.. I'm having so much fun ☺
I almost had Jupiter tracked last night. Not bad for the second try...weather has only gave me a couple hrs to practice but clearer sky's are coming 😃
First try it was bouncing...after I balanced it again it was much smoother...😃
Awesome! Good luck with everything!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek someday I'll get a better setup but that's not the point for me it's just getting the best I can do for me 🤗 thank you for the tips 😊
I didn't think that you were French. We're you from? Will a pleasure meeting you
I am indeed French - from île de France :) Mais là avec COVID c'est pas facile de rentrer...
So if you're 1 inch east heavy and that works great, all you have to do is move the weight in by 2" after the meridian flip, then you'll be 1" east heavy again.
Yep - but that only work's if you're awake :) Not great for automation...
@@CuivTheLazyGeek I forgot about that. I guess I'd make a lousy "lazy" astrophotographer. Love the vids and what you're accompishing in the white zone. Happy to see youre recovering,too.
Ioptron CEM 60, belt driven?
The CEM 60 is worm and gear - and has no stiffness, so this method is supposed to be very effective with it!
Thank you
Or after the flip move the weights.
Exactly! Which is not possible when you're sleeping and the setup is automated...
how about the balance of the camera and filterwheel ? when your mount is horizontal,the camera is on the same side too,wich hangs and gives stress to the focusser.
when the mount is horizontal,wouldnt it be better to let the camera hang or stand up vertical ?
im testing this out because i have a heavy camera and wheel. greetings john www.astrobin.com/users/kajouman/
Yeah, but then the tube is difficult to balance in declination... It's kind of a tradeoff. Your piucs are amazing by the way!
Quit with all the ads!!!! I like your vids man but............4 ads in a 12 min vid FFS!
Sorry about this - I do not control the ads placement or their frequency within the video, Google/UA-cam does...
Dont listen to that troll. You're providing incredible educational videos no one else is doing in the hobby. I'm happy to watch 4, 5, 6, or more ads in any of your videos for the service your providing. Thanks Cuiv!
@@CuivTheLazyGeek in that case carry on my good man 😁
@@derekderek2570 hardly trolling! 😂😂
How much to speak for a 2 mins job