Beta 200RR Clutch Fix | Beta Clutch Squeal | Highland Cycles
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- Опубліковано 23 сер 2024
- I think we found the cause of the 200 Beta Clutch squeal and fixed it! Stay tuned to make sure we actually did!
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Love this kind of creative fixing. It's what separates real mechanics from parts changers.
The inner hub and backing plate should never become completely separated. You did do well at removing the burrs to reduce drag and keep a smooth action. Look at increasing oil flow to control temps. Make the current holes in the inner hub a little bigger. Add more holes. Look at adding holes into the backing plates. This worked great on the Sherco's. I have a vid on what I did if needed.
I know they shouldn’t come apart but my worry is that when the clutch is hot and plates are expanded that the hydro slave adjusts and then when you actuate the clutch it can just barely come “apart”. I checked the holes for oil and they seemed pretty big and plenty of them. Also it doesn’t do it as soon as you ease up a bit. If this doesn’t fix it my next step is more/bigger holes in hub. It’s odd though. Since it’s a 2T the clutch is just in a constant bath of oil, it should be getting plenty to the plates. 4T bikes pump it down the throw out and sling it through the plates. Anyway, we will see
Rob, would you mind posting or sharing the video of your work on the Sherco clutches? I have been looking into drilling out the hubs on my SE. Thanks!
@@highlandcycles Look how open a Rekluse design is. The oil bath is "pushed" away/out of the clutch from centrifugal force. Looking forward to what you find because we may need to run a similar style clutch on our XEMX E-Moto for TKO.
@@robtoole1480 For sure. I know that more flow is always better.
You can measure all this, check actuator travel dimension.
Then compare pressure plate to hub overlap at the measured dimension. This will tell you if it is even plausible that they uncouple.
You know it's extra Italian when it makes Zach make that face
Thanks for all the time and energy on your videos. Both entertaining and educational.
My TM 300 fi 2t does the squealing as well. Really looking forward to the "results "vid. Thank you for doing this!
Great video mate.
My 22 250 RR Beta makes the same clutch noise if I take off in too high a gear.
Love your work 🍻
Thanks
Sweet. Time to ride it.Great idea for fix! can't wait for the results.
I’m stoked.
I have the same bike. I believe the noise comes from the design of the cover with the built in slave. Any vibration of the plates gets transferred to the slave and to the cover which is acting like a resonator cone albeit a small one. If you look at a resonator guitar design you'll see what I mean.
I think you are right. And I think that the lack of smooth quick engagement is causing the vibes. We will see. I feel pretty good about it so far.
I’ve been looking at buying a Beta 200rr for my son. Maybe Beta knows there are issues with their clutch design. Its my understanding in 2022 the 250-300rr models got a new clutch and its different than what you are seeing - the 2022 200rr had an old clutch design that has since been updated. In 2023 the 200rr models got the same new diaphragm clutch. This is on the Beta USA website now detailing the new clutch -- DIAPHRAGM CLUTCH: Diaphragm clutch provides a lighter clutch pull while offering more progressive control, significantly reducing rider fatigue. Improved clutch also transmit even more torque than before. Adjustable clutch settings allow rider to customize spring options to their desired feel.
People love to criticize just because it's "different" without ever using it. In a world where half the off-road bikes are all the same, it's nice to see some different approaches to things. The 200rr is an incredibly fun bike to ride, so if a "different" mechanism that still works well (have not noticed performance degradation from the noise) is the by-product to fit the need, I'm pretty okay with that. To each their own.
I hear ya and I really like the bike but that noise is really annoying. And seems like it’s different just to be different, not better
@@highlandcycles it is annoying, I'll give you that and I do think it's worth fixing. I guess my comment was more holistically about the clutch actuation. I think you nailed it that the left side of the case prevents the slave over there. This seems like a fairly well engineered way to keep from having a cable clutch which would have a more traditional basket style but then everyone would complain that it's a cable and not hydraulic. Can't win lol
Hallo, it's good to see you digging into this common issue. Please keep us posted!
What exactly did you use for grinding that chamfers?
Thanks and all the best from Germany!
I just used a small, thin file. Stay tuned for more testing!
Mine did it too! I switched to Motul Trans oil and it seems to have helped the squeal…
Your trying to reinvent the wheel.Drill holes in the pressure plate .Its purely lack oil flow trough the clutch In Gas Gas (Spanish gases aka proper gasgas ) it svery common .Using atf (type 33) in the gearbox will help a lot in the remedy. Look at a recluse clutch pressure plate ,you'll see the fix instantly .Good luck
You are right. I was just looking at everything one piece at a time. And chamfering didn’t hurt anything or cost anything either. But the oil flow is the issue.
Yay, frigin nailed it, helping us all
That's the goal
Super interesting. Can't wait to see if a full bore ride at Peach gets it to make noise...
Me too. I feel pretty good about it
I have a 21 200rr and it does the same thing thank you for the video if you could do one on how to adjust them cause I can not seem to find one on that style
For the sake of $ 5 to 10 dollars you can download a full workshop manual from Beta or a copy ...........save all that guesswork and gives you all of the torque
values .......Kev.
Thinking outside the box clutch 95% quieter not sure I like that clutch set up pain in the butt to replace plates👍
I've seen that type of funky clutch on something before maybe xr 100, 200?
The band on the hub is common on automotive automatic transmissions.
You’ll know the first real ride. Mine does it when I’m in 3rd trying to climb and should be 2nd. Sometimes out of a corner Ill get the squealing noise.
Yeah, That is what I was trying to mimic with dragging the brake really bad. But we will get it out soon.
🤘 that was a pretty good idea there Morgan I hope it works
Thanks for the dive into this. Interesting that it's designed backwards from most other manufacturers. I've had my small bore bikes' clutch "honk" when it starts getting hot. It was never an issue on my 250/300/350/450's. I wonder if the issue goes away with more clutch spring pressure like we have on bigger bore bikes?
Maybe.
This looks similar to the Honda XL350 clutch of the 1980's.
That was pretty cool to see the inards of that clutch...really awsome series so far, I'm really wanting to know more about that head... what it actually does and is it a good mod to have, seeing that I'm kinda new to this sport. Whats the difficulty level of installation etc. I'd even buy it from you.
The head help the bike make more low end power (more power everywhere actually) which allows the rider to be able to keep the rpm’s down and ride smoother. Super easy to install.
Awesome man, thanks✊
I machined the hubs on my XR200 to fit extra plates. The clutch never slips but now it's more off/on with not much in between.
My 2019 does this occasionally if I’m in too high of a gear trying to climb a hill. Also the manual says to add 750ml of oil in the gear box, but if i add only 750 the oil don’t come out of check hole. So now i just fill til it comes out. Still makes a bit of noise if i don’t let it get warmed up before i beat on it
Just bought a 2022 Beta RR 300 Racing, and there's a knocking sound. Not sure if it's a main/crank/rod bearings issue, pistong rings or perhaps clutch basket / primary gear issue. 😐
Shoot
Prefer not having the slave right in front of the sprocket. Just works in reverse. Think in opposite, pressure comes from inside to outside, and you release pressure on plates by pushing inward. Trials bikes are likely the reason. I think the band is a way to reinforce the basket where it is weakest. Embrace change. Mine is quiet.
That’s cool but it seems like everyone else’s is loud. And this seems like a step backwards. They used this on old XR’s. We will see.
Nope sounds like it fixed it for sure 👍
Hey Morgan, are you guys racing the Red Canyon Enduro next weekend? It'll be my first enduro in TX and I'm excited!
No, raced it last year and its a blast
It’s how they do their trials bikes
Why ? No answer
But would believe to keep down cost
Use existing parts & / or patents
Loving this bike!
Me too
That steel band was used on British machines and other machines of the past...it has been around since the 40s...nothing new, it is so basket can be lighter while reinforcing it.
after your ride it still does it so the over travel is not the problem...I will be looking at bearing or pressure plate to adjuster plate.
Someone else fixed it by drilling holes in the hub to allow more lube
You battled the symptomes of the fault, not the fault itself. The clutch can come out too far. Found a solution for that too.
Video on the topic comming on this or next week. Have to work through getting my thoughts in the video since my English is quite rusty.
Edit: ua-cam.com/video/H41ZR5lZZnM/v-deo.html
Will definitely check out.
@@highlandcycles
As you may have seen it's now online (link above). Very curious about your opinion!
Did this "fix" fix the issue with the noisy clutch?
I'm about to pull the trigger on a 2024 200RR
No. It helped but didn’t fix. Another guy figured out that you need to drill more holes in the inner hub to get more oil on the clutch
Same basic design as the KDX clutches that disengage inward.
Gotcha.
Hi, i hope I can explain what I think about this design:
Looking at the design how the clutch is actuated there is a big difference to the common design. The pivot of actuation force (steel ball between hydraulic piston and clutchassembly) is far away from the moved clutch endplate. This can tilt easily, as it is a mechanically unstable equilibrium (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_equilibrium). The tilting movement is only limited by the clutch endplate reaching the clutchplates at the respective edge.
Now-this unstable situation might support the clutch squeal effect.
In addition we have 6 clutch springs with tolerances. meaning they vary a bit in length and force. Think of 6 different springs in order 1,2,3,4,5,6 weakest to strongest. Now mounting is random. If you mount 1-6-2-5-3-4 you might have more uniform force. If you go 2-1-3-4-6-5 you might have most tilt force.
As this is random (as well as the tolerances of springs you get), some clutches have squeal, some not.
However - vibration effects like these are hard to predict (as we know from the brakes) - You might get squal on purpose by leaving out one clutch spring, you might get it if springs are uniform, or inbetween.
How do you torque that nut back down without the clutch moving? Really want to avoid buying the $100 specialty tool from Beta
I install the plates and put pressure on them as I hit it with an impact
I could see that steel band creating a resonance like a guitar string if there's any juttering going on.
Maybe. It’s super tight in place but could be something
@@highlandcycles super tight like a guitar string? Resonance frequencies do mysterious things. It's amazing to watch how some bikes will resonate a shock spring at a certain RPM (I think some older Honda MX bikes did this)
Only time I herd that wire sound when I abuse it.
@highlandcycles three months later did this fix the squeal?
No. Need to drill more holes in hub. I never did it but another guy did.
Looks like not enough oil flow? And I think the clutch drum won’t move that far out.
It shouldn’t but I think that when it’s hot and everything has expanded that it might. I’ll find out. I would say oil flow also but the oil comes out super clean and the plates are perfect looking. Like I said though. We are going to keep digging.
@@highlandcycles more power to you Morgan.. keep digging...thanks
One take away for me from seeing the clutch insides, is you have to remove the big nut if you need to replace clutch plates?
Yeah, kinda dumb. Whole design is dumb in my opinion.
@@highlandcycles I would have to agree. I think the mod you made in the video made a difference though. 👍
I can't see the "pressure plate" coming so far off the hub as to slip out of the grooves. That would be a very large movement. My 200 RR squeals at me especially during races. Makes my skin crawl but one season under it's belt and no bad outcomes...
I think that it only happens when everything gets hot and expands. That would make the starting point of the pressure plate further out. I agree that it shouldn’t move that much and maybe it doesn’t but this is where I’m going to start. If it doesn’t solve it we will keep after it.
@@highlandcycles again measuring stroke of actuator and then hub/pressure plate will give you the answer...
@@joeanania2257 it will give the answer while cold. Would be very hard to get that measurement at full temp
You should be doing wheelies to warm it up.
Good stuff Highland .Kev .Australia
🤘🏻🤘🏻
Kind of the same thing you did, but, maybe you should've just left it alone and kept fresh oil in it and wait. Maybe the squeal would go away when the corners wear in naturally.
If that was gonna happen it would have happened already.
Yeah Joe. This already had a couple oil changes and 11 hrs of racing. Also, everyone who has a 200 says that this is a thing even after lots of hours
@@highlandcycles Agree with Morgan. "Time" does not make it go away. Had 21 now 22. Same noise. I have 300, My son a 250, they NEVER did it. Will give this fix a try for sure if it works out. Thanks for help M. DaveinPA
Maybe the owner or engineers at Beta like reverse cowgirl?
🤣😂
you should put in the description that it didnt work
I need to update it
Where's the vid series on Adam does dirties bike build
Uploading #2 right now
You should have a listen to my 996 if you want to hear real clutch noise 😆
Oh yeah. Ducatis clutches sound crazy
So is this a new design then for 22 and up Beta
No I think the 23 is different
@Highland Cycles all the things they could of engineered I don't think the clutch basket set up is it when the old style been proven for many years by all makers I love engineering but on alot of my new bikes it's like they spend a shit ton of money with it only to create new flaws and problems sometimes u better off just leaving some shit alone
Anyway whatever 🤣 I love beta's
Hehehehe
not crazy about that design. the need to pull the saft nut to pull plates doesn't thrill me at all!
My 1989 yz125 clutch plate to disc separator was of a pull-type design.
Yep Bryce. Not a fan at all. No reason for it.
Joe, those work fine. My kid's 144 was that way. Basically like the other style with a pressure plate that moves from left to right away from motor but pulling instead of pushing.
@@highlandcycles plus good luck trying to execute any kind of trail side repair.
@@brycedavis907 Yeah. I don't get it really. It would take a redesign of the cases to get it right but they should have started there in the first place.
Dude... that sure is going to make it expensive if you punch a hole in the clutch cover with the slave built into it. cool design though.
I know. But I guess the slave comes out and the cover is cheap.
I think I looked into it and the cover is about the same as most other ones.
@@highlandcycles Yeah cover is cheap
Sounds like a ktm noisy clutch/engine to me.
I"ve owned many KTM's, never had one with a noisy clutch
Kawasaki used the exact same clutch actuation in their single cylinder 2 strokes for decades except it was mechanically actuated of course by a nylon worm gear. We never had issues with them, totally bullet proof.
This is not how a centrifugal "mini bike"clutch works...
Since it slips and makes noise I would look at release (engagement) of actuation components, Slave cylinder clearances, master cylinder release ??
The over actuation you were focusing on could be figured out simply by measuring slave stroke(atuation) and then travel of hub where pressure plate is no longer engaged.
Will have to see how my 2022 200 re works once I finish bike set up and weather breaks...
Good luck..Joe@Vcycle
Interesting, which Kawasaki models used it?
Not the centrifugal part of a mini bike clutch but the Other clutch that is the attachment to the trans. It is the same. When you shift a mini bike it has little balls on ramps that push in on the clutch to disengage it and then re-engage when you let the shifter go.
@@charlesgunzelman3323 KDX
@Charles Gunzelman all the 80,90,100, engines from 70s to late 2000 when discountinued.. ..there are other Japanese that used this also I believe just can not remember which ones......
@Highland Cycles which mini bikes? The lawn mower engine mini bikes we had in the day had a circular spring around shoes and fly out with centrifugal force when reved...think they still work the same..you may be talking mini cycles??
Whatever. I dunno.Exactly why billet machined exists
Yep. I have a friend that we might be working together to build a real fix. We will see.
This design makes more effort to change a clutch. This seems to be no step in the right direction. Sorry Beta!
Agree. It’s pretty dumb.
BAD Idea, you are just creating more play for wear and rubbing
We will see. I’ll buy a new one if I have to.