This is Martian’s fault. He should have known that hazoret couldn’t be cast and then stoped Christian. I think both of the players are innocent, and they both made a honest mistake. But Martian should know what his own damn cards do.
I think that it is both players fault but Christian wants to play fast enough that if he makes an illegal move he is advancing the board state so fast that if he makes a mistatke the boardstate is so far advanced they can't roll back the board. So it is a way to angle to get an advantage. Not illegal but possibly shitty
It's so easy to forget about ixalans binding, Martin should have called it. And sure they're pro players but that was a really high pressure game. Especially if he topdecked the hazoret it would be easy to get excited.
I know it was a joke but that shadiness factor would be a fun thing to track and at every GP that they go to, if it's high, it's displayed. My idea is that instead of a meter, it's a numerical score where each warning adds 1, each DQ adds 2, a ban is plus 5, and every 2 GPs where they don't get in hot water removes 1. Just image at the top "Fabrizio Anteri - Notoriety 8 | 11-2 | (insert deck here)". It'd be funny, and Wizards could actually use this to punish habitual cheaters, like if they get over 10, they get punished somehow.
The only problem that i have with your idea is warnings adding 1. You can get a warning for pretty much anything. In theory Martin should have gotten a warning for forgetting what his card does. I have gotten warnings for missing a trigger that would benefit me (Prized amalgam) and for resolving a mulligan wrong (I was out of prizing already so me and my opponent were just talking while we played, I do not like my 7 so i mulligan to 6, I accidentally drew 7 cards, looked at my hand, set the hand down and told my opponent "Hey, i am going to call a judge because i accidentally drew up to 7). What i am getting at is that even though in every case it has either been me missing a beneficial trigger or messing up then calling my self out on it, i would still be punished. From a piece published on wotc website "The primary function of a warning is to educate players about game play. A warning should not be viewed as a penalty in and of itself, but as a note to the player that they did something wrong and a note to the DCI that there was a problem."
@@ericchannell1206 Plus, Judges are not perfect either. Sometimes a judge makes a bad ruling, and you don't want some BS strict punishment for a small infraction on some kind of permanent record. I agree, there should probably be a record for more serious violations (cheating accusations, major or repeated games rules violations, poor sportsmanship, etc.), but the little stuff should go away at the end of the tournament. Otherwise it reminds me too much of the Chinese "social credit" system, which is morally questionable, at best.
1) how can we expect christian to remember if martin didn't even remember the card he was playing 2) how long was the first hazoret exiled before the other was cast 3) red-black cannot remove enchantments so the imminent mental shortcut is to forget about the exiled card 4) ixalan's binding operates very similarly to other enchantment-based removal like cast out or seal away 5) what is the judge supposed to do? multiple game actions had occurred rendering a reversal impractical 6) the match should not be influenced by the coverage because all of the other matches aren't receiving the same benefit 7) the commentators said it was a timewalk match
I think the problem is that this one is not a trigger. It just states that the card cannot be played (different than the 'countered' trigger from chalice of the void, for example). Though, I am no rule's judge. Regardless, I don't think this is some kind of egregious cheating sandal. One player accidentally played a card because he probably got excited with a "good" draw in a big match, and the other player forgot about a card he had played a bit ago. Mistakes happen, and people move on. Just because you are a professional doesn't mean you can't make mistakes.
When I was at GP Albuquerque for Shadows, my opponent and I both missed a flip trigger on a werewolf (the set had been out for a week) while a judge was sitting there (he had been called over for a rules clarification by my opponent). He called us on it after the following turn, warned us both, and resumed play without having us walk it back. Not sure if it's the proper option, but I can see why the Twitch chat would say warn them both and move on, because it's what's normally done when the turn has already been passed. Not really sure why he hadn't called it out immediately.
The judge called correctly. Unfortunately mistakes are made in paper magic. Nerves and fatigue cause even the best players to miss things. This was his 14th round I can understand a mistake.
They couldn’t roll it back because it was a time walk, meaning thus was previously recorded and no one caught it up until the commentators viewed the gameplay.
They could roll it back, the guys comment to rolling it back was the judge deciding to do so who was there at the actual event and caught the ruling at that actual time several turns later.
I agree with this video 99% the only thing I would say is that judges should not completely rely on twitch chat because if chat realize they can interrupt games by fake calls that can screw up the game or say like the last pro tour maybe they try to make esper win since it was the underdog Edit got to end and you changed your mind and say he cheated well idk it is weird but it is martains fault as well for not catching it so if he did cheat then he got away with it but if he didn't then whatever each player is responsible to pay attention to the cards on the field
I also like the point that everyone is making about having matches filmed but not utilizing the footage. They could easily go back to where the mistake was made, fix it and continue play.
Eh, but then by that point, you would know too much about what is in your opponents hands and what you are going to draw, etc. You can make players shuffle their decks, but you can't just make players redraw their hands, as that would change everything they had planned for.
Not sure if it has been said, but this footage wasn't live. It was a match they looked back into after their first feature Match ended. If something happens in a feature match that's being watched live they do notify a judge and handles the situation from there
on one hand hansen should be responsible for his own triggers. on the other hand, if i was hansen, i might be like GG after the game but not give back the hazoret under my ixalan's binding. :D
I would like it if there was a rule that if two players fail to maintain the correct boardstate, replay the game. It would be time consuming, but it would work.
Idk, I imagine some players would use this to their advantage. Rather than notify their opponent if they are in a losing state, let the play happen and hope for a replayed game. Not to mention that matches already draw without making them artificially longer.
Yeah the match was already over and slips were turned in. Not really anything you can do after both people sign and turn in the slip. If it was being shown live, yes a judge would go fix the situation if the announcers caught something that the players didn't
I’m new to the game, and rulings like this will push new players away like it or not. Not rewinding the game gives more incentive for a player to attempt to cheat. Dropping a Hazzoret, or even a basic land illegally should result in stepping back and “fixing the board state” or whatever. I think exposing your cards, and a warning for the player who misplayed is a fair penalty for a first offense in the game. I think there should also be a 3 strike rule through out an entire tournament for repeated misplays that are the same infraction. I don’t think the opposing player should be penalized either. This makes it advantageous to repeatedly attempt to cheat. I know not everyone will agree but I think big misplays like this should be rewound to whenever they happened and fixed before continuing the game.
This is why I don't play Hazoret period. The card is just a hassle. Take it out of the deck and find another 4 of in standard. That way it's bullshit rule text doesn't fuck you in the ass.
I'm from Denmark - your first "Copenhagen" was right. It's the English translation - in Danish it's "København", which I won't put you through pronouncing :D
#1 Martins bad for not noticing, and #2 Horrible call by the a judge! Everything after the misplay should have been null and void; if they couldn’t rewind the game it should have been thrown out and should have had a redo....if that wasn’t possible, Christian should have been given the loss. IMO
To me its like the player forgetting a chalice trigger. So its martins fault. And its a GP not all players are pros playing. Just pay the fee and you can play.
Wouldn't it make sense to have the commentators actually be the judges for the games they are watching? Just my $.02 but that seems like a common sense solution to me.... Edit: Ahhh….nvm....just got to the part where you explained it was taped delayed footage they were commenting on....still I should think that it is something they should consider in the future but doubt they will.
This is an innocent mistake and if you have played legacy to any degree you'd know that in comp REL stuff gets cast into an active chalice of the void all the time, and it's almost always an honest mistake, and most if the time it doesn't resolve. I'd be surprised if this was cheating, unlike the earlier event that weekend with the incorrect resolution of an ability. That incident had more evidence to suggest foul play.
You could tell by his body language that he realized he made a mistake but not saying anything and calling a judge made him a cheater. If you screw up just say something...
MTG the only professional game with life referees arriving watching the game that allows and then punishes the players for illegal board states. In any sport etc if the playing field is in a illegal condition the ref stops the game and fixes said condition. May it be a fan running naked or pizza on the basketball court.
Its not a missed trigger its an illegal cast so the game HAS to be replayed if they cant reset the board state. I dont think he did it on purpose because it would be noticed normally. Also when its live they do call the judge live.
Sorry bro.. theres enough plausible deniability here that you probably should lean that way given the opportunity. Innocent until proven guilty sort of thing. Especially with the easy nature of how it could of come about.
Why would you ‘hate to say’ that this wasn’t intentional? You sound like you WANT to be able to dunk on these people who lack basic respect for the game, their opponents, us as the spectators, and even themselves. With all of the pro s$&theads cheating that we know are out there, shouldn’t we all be happy that someone wasn’t doing it with intent? I agree that this game should have been walked back, with something on the line like $25k. You should ‘hate’ that it wasn’t. You should ‘hate’ that Wizards doesn’t do anything about it.
Honest question are you just helping Jeremy spread the word on these cheaters? Are you copying him for views? Or did you come up with these on your own? *non hostile*
It's just the fact that Des hates pro magic and I assume he has no idea what happens at those events then him doing back to back stories right after Jeremy seemed weird but in no way am I against him spreading all of this bs to as many ppl as possible
I'm sorry but "pay attention to twitch chat" is perhaps the worst piece of advice I've ever heard. Twitch chat streams make *UA-cam comments* look like highbrow discussions
This is Martian’s fault. He should have known that hazoret couldn’t be cast and then stoped Christian. I think both of the players are innocent, and they both made a honest mistake. But Martian should know what his own damn cards do.
I think that it is both players fault but Christian wants to play fast enough that if he makes an illegal move he is advancing the board state so fast that if he makes a mistatke the boardstate is so far advanced they can't roll back the board. So it is a way to angle to get an advantage. Not illegal but possibly shitty
Probably same as missing the trigger on a Chalice. Really sucks and is kinda skeevy.
i agree , the announcers should be able to contact the judges
it was time walked match so it was allready played i think
It's so easy to forget about ixalans binding, Martin should have called it. And sure they're pro players but that was a really high pressure game. Especially if he topdecked the hazoret it would be easy to get excited.
Both players screwed up. Shit happens.
I know it was a joke but that shadiness factor would be a fun thing to track and at every GP that they go to, if it's high, it's displayed.
My idea is that instead of a meter, it's a numerical score where each warning adds 1, each DQ adds 2, a ban is plus 5, and every 2 GPs where they don't get in hot water removes 1.
Just image at the top "Fabrizio Anteri - Notoriety 8 | 11-2 | (insert deck here)". It'd be funny, and Wizards could actually use this to punish habitual cheaters, like if they get over 10, they get punished somehow.
Nlorp YESSSSSSSSSSSS
The only problem that i have with your idea is warnings adding 1. You can get a warning for pretty much anything. In theory Martin should have gotten a warning for forgetting what his card does. I have gotten warnings for missing a trigger that would benefit me (Prized amalgam) and for resolving a mulligan wrong (I was out of prizing already so me and my opponent were just talking while we played, I do not like my 7 so i mulligan to 6, I accidentally drew 7 cards, looked at my hand, set the hand down and told my opponent "Hey, i am going to call a judge because i accidentally drew up to 7). What i am getting at is that even though in every case it has either been me missing a beneficial trigger or messing up then calling my self out on it, i would still be punished. From a piece published on wotc website "The primary function of a warning is to educate players about game play. A warning should not be viewed as a penalty in and of itself, but as a note to the player that they did something wrong and a note to the DCI that there was a problem."
@@ericchannell1206 Plus, Judges are not perfect either. Sometimes a judge makes a bad ruling, and you don't want some BS strict punishment for a small infraction on some kind of permanent record. I agree, there should probably be a record for more serious violations (cheating accusations, major or repeated games rules violations, poor sportsmanship, etc.), but the little stuff should go away at the end of the tournament. Otherwise it reminds me too much of the Chinese "social credit" system, which is morally questionable, at best.
1) how can we expect christian to remember if martin didn't even remember the card he was playing
2) how long was the first hazoret exiled before the other was cast
3) red-black cannot remove enchantments so the imminent mental shortcut is to forget about the exiled card
4) ixalan's binding operates very similarly to other enchantment-based removal like cast out or seal away
5) what is the judge supposed to do? multiple game actions had occurred rendering a reversal impractical
6) the match should not be influenced by the coverage because all of the other matches aren't receiving the same benefit
7) the commentators said it was a timewalk match
from my understand of the rules its the card owners trigger and they have to be the one that makes sure their card is followed
I think the problem is that this one is not a trigger. It just states that the card cannot be played (different than the 'countered' trigger from chalice of the void, for example). Though, I am no rule's judge. Regardless, I don't think this is some kind of egregious cheating sandal. One player accidentally played a card because he probably got excited with a "good" draw in a big match, and the other player forgot about a card he had played a bit ago. Mistakes happen, and people move on. Just because you are a professional doesn't mean you can't make mistakes.
When I was at GP Albuquerque for Shadows, my opponent and I both missed a flip trigger on a werewolf (the set had been out for a week) while a judge was sitting there (he had been called over for a rules clarification by my opponent). He called us on it after the following turn, warned us both, and resumed play without having us walk it back.
Not sure if it's the proper option, but I can see why the Twitch chat would say warn them both and move on, because it's what's normally done when the turn has already been passed.
Not really sure why he hadn't called it out immediately.
Their life totals. -_-
life totals dont mean a great deal in tournament magic unless you are at 0
they do mean something when you're playing red
Guys... It says 4-20. 420
oh fuck. how did I miss that.
The judge called correctly. Unfortunately mistakes are made in paper magic. Nerves and fatigue cause even the best players to miss things. This was his 14th round I can understand a mistake.
They couldn’t roll it back because it was a time walk, meaning thus was previously recorded and no one caught it up until the commentators viewed the gameplay.
They could roll it back, the guys comment to rolling it back was the judge deciding to do so who was there at the actual event and caught the ruling at that actual time several turns later.
I agree with this video 99% the only thing I would say is that judges should not completely rely on twitch chat because if chat realize they can interrupt games by fake calls that can screw up the game or say like the last pro tour maybe they try to make esper win since it was the underdog
Edit got to end and you changed your mind and say he cheated well idk it is weird but it is martains fault as well for not catching it so if he did cheat then he got away with it but if he didn't then whatever each player is responsible to pay attention to the cards on the field
why was ixalans binding all the way over where it was? i put cards like that in front of the players so hey can be seen
I also like the point that everyone is making about having matches filmed but not utilizing the footage. They could easily go back to where the mistake was made, fix it and continue play.
Eh, but then by that point, you would know too much about what is in your opponents hands and what you are going to draw, etc. You can make players shuffle their decks, but you can't just make players redraw their hands, as that would change everything they had planned for.
Not sure if it has been said, but this footage wasn't live. It was a match they looked back into after their first feature Match ended. If something happens in a feature match that's being watched live they do notify a judge and handles the situation from there
it was a Time walk match that had already happened. What could they do?
on one hand hansen should be responsible for his own triggers.
on the other hand, if i was hansen, i might be like GG after the game but not give back the hazoret under my ixalan's binding. :D
The commentators do usually get involved and call a judge to make sure the game stays fair
But do they ever pull a WWE and run in with a steel chair?
I would totally pay money to see Brock Lesnar come in there and put a cheater in the Kimura Lock!
How’s ur night/day des?
Wow I can't believe it. I saw that match and the binding ability completely got looked over
For everyone saying the announcers should contact the judges this is a time walk match it’s prerecorded nothing to do
I would like it if there was a rule that if two players fail to maintain the correct boardstate, replay the game. It would be time consuming, but it would work.
Idk, I imagine some players would use this to their advantage. Rather than notify their opponent if they are in a losing state, let the play happen and hope for a replayed game. Not to mention that matches already draw without making them artificially longer.
@@trumpetperson11 That is a very good point.
What the actual F### WoTC you need to do something like yesterday
Yeah the match was already over and slips were turned in. Not really anything you can do after both people sign and turn in the slip. If it was being shown live, yes a judge would go fix the situation if the announcers caught something that the players didn't
You ever been to The Dragons Refuge?
No idea what that is
Its my local game shop, one of the regulars has an identical voice to yours lol, so i had to ask.
I’m new to the game, and rulings like this will push new players away like it or not. Not rewinding the game gives more incentive for a player to attempt to cheat. Dropping a Hazzoret, or even a basic land illegally should result in stepping back and “fixing the board state” or whatever. I think exposing your cards, and a warning for the player who misplayed is a fair penalty for a first offense in the game. I think there should also be a 3 strike rule through out an entire tournament for repeated misplays that are the same infraction. I don’t think the opposing player should be penalized either. This makes it advantageous to repeatedly attempt to cheat. I know not everyone will agree but I think big misplays like this should be rewound to whenever they happened and fixed before continuing the game.
This is why I don't play Hazoret period. The card is just a hassle. Take it out of the deck and find another 4 of in standard. That way it's bullshit rule text doesn't fuck you in the ass.
I'm from Denmark - your first "Copenhagen" was right. It's the English translation - in Danish it's "København", which I won't put you through pronouncing :D
I know this is a really old video. But I think the announcers should be honorary judges that can stop the game themselves then get a judge involved.
Christian has a heart on the battle field I don't see a flyer on other side so looks like he had it in the bag baring something I don't see
The opponent could +1 Gideon to prevent damage from the heart. But yeah, it seemed very likely the rush deck would win.
Digital card scanner. With touch screen table for play
#1 Martins bad for not noticing, and #2 Horrible call by the a judge! Everything after the misplay should have been null and void; if they couldn’t rewind the game it should have been thrown out and should have had a redo....if that wasn’t possible, Christian should have been given the loss. IMO
Come on someone has to be the sacrificial lamb just pick one.
Des, I like your take on this.
You know white benalia is control but tbh the had a heart so.....
The commentators were literally 10-15 metres away from the feature match area.
But the game was already done... It's a time walk match.
To me its like the player forgetting a chalice trigger. So its martins fault. And its a GP not all players are pros playing. Just pay the fee and you can play.
Not saying it's their fault, but the dude with the ixalans binding shoulda spoken up, and/ or the announcers or judges.
cheaters take notice one day their will be a reckoning
More mtg cheating again
Your wish is my command. Watch tomorrow.
Wouldn't it make sense to have the commentators actually be the judges for the games they are watching? Just my $.02 but that seems like a common sense solution to me....
Edit: Ahhh….nvm....just got to the part where you explained it was taped delayed footage they were commenting on....still I should think that it is something they should consider in the future but doubt they will.
This is an innocent mistake and if you have played legacy to any degree you'd know that in comp REL stuff gets cast into an active chalice of the void all the time, and it's almost always an honest mistake, and most if the time it doesn't resolve. I'd be surprised if this was cheating, unlike the earlier event that weekend with the incorrect resolution of an ability. That incident had more evidence to suggest foul play.
Maybe if they would spend less time shuffling their hands and more time analyzing the board state....
Twitch chat keeps real card games going
You forgot pager
i really love your chanel
So basically if I join the pro league/tournaments I stand a good chance to win because everyone else is cheating lol
You could tell by his body language that he realized he made a mistake but not saying anything and calling a judge made him a cheater. If you screw up just say something...
Throw the game out on the count of Burger King foot lettuce
It's tiny, but it's enormous... Hehe
MTG the only professional game with life referees arriving watching the game that allows and then punishes the players for illegal board states.
In any sport etc if the playing field is in a illegal condition the ref stops the game and fixes said condition. May it be a fan running naked or pizza on the basketball court.
Anyone who's seen a single GP on Twitch or UA-cam in the past year knows exactly what "Time Walk" means regarding coverage.
Its not a missed trigger its an illegal cast so the game HAS to be replayed if they cant reset the board state. I dont think he did it on purpose because it would be noticed normally. Also when its live they do call the judge live.
Sorry bro.. theres enough plausible deniability here that you probably should lean that way given the opportunity. Innocent until proven guilty sort of thing. Especially with the easy nature of how it could of come about.
Hey des
Hey upside down isaac
#DessssssssssArmy!
Why would you ‘hate to say’ that this wasn’t intentional? You sound like you WANT to be able to dunk on these people who lack basic respect for the game, their opponents, us as the spectators, and even themselves. With all of the pro s$&theads cheating that we know are out there, shouldn’t we all be happy that someone wasn’t doing it with intent? I agree that this game should have been walked back, with something on the line like $25k. You should ‘hate’ that it wasn’t. You should ‘hate’ that Wizards doesn’t do anything about it.
wrecked lol
R I P
A recommendation: Put background stuff like games or the audience will lose interest. Just a suggestion.
Honest question are you just helping Jeremy spread the word on these cheaters? Are you copying him for views? Or did you come up with these on your own? *non hostile*
MrMacdaddymcfly it's a big story about magic, 2 people covering it in magic community isn't really an oddity.
I'm guessing they use the same source for their material
Not everyone who watches Des’s channel also watches Jeremy’s channel; just sayin
It's just the fact that Des hates pro magic and I assume he has no idea what happens at those events then him doing back to back stories right after Jeremy seemed weird but in no way am I against him spreading all of this bs to as many ppl as possible
I'm sorry but "pay attention to twitch chat" is perhaps the worst piece of advice I've ever heard. Twitch chat streams make *UA-cam comments* look like highbrow discussions