Waveguides? Audiophiles! Try this NOW!
Вставка
- Опубліковано 30 січ 2020
- Waveguides? Try this NOW!
Article mentioned in video: bit.ly/2GD3nsq
Bosch Tape Measure: amzn.to/390id8F (affiliate link)
+++Follow NRD+++
/ newrecordday
/ newrecordday
/ nrdreviews
Patreon!!! / newrecordday - Фільми й анімація
OK. I'm reviving this thread because you have made me nuts to the point of ridiculousness! I only recently found your channel via the speaker setup video and have been perusing the earlier stuff that you did. I've also been into soundstage and 'disappearing speaker' stuff on this and other channels. Then you suggest this 'crazy' idea that flies in the face of all speaker setup videos but yours. Had to try it because you said so.
Oh; wow! I just tried this in my 12x20 listening room and BANG! I can't believe it! In the last week by using new speaker connectors (my old ones were from 30 years ago), a new Schiit Mani 2, and now, following the advice you have given in this video, I darn near have audio Karma -- BOTH the incredible and deep center stage together with the speakers completely disappearing! I now look at a speaker and the sound coming from center is so intense that I am immediately drawn away to instead look at the instruments 'on the stage'. For very little money and thanks to you and this tweak, the system sounds absolutely wonderful and better than everything else that I have ever heard.
"Flabbergasted" is the audio word, and "God bless you for your works." are other ones that go on forever. Thank you.
I cried cause how much the toe-in stuff helped me with my baby A5+ in a small 20m2 bedroom, the soundstage is improved a lot, the sound is fuller also. Thank you so much! You are a hero.
Its crazy how much this applies to photography and lighting! It's Called feathering in photography lighting. It give much softer even light vs pointing the light directly at a person or group.
It is all about wave Lengths. There isn't a huge difference between light and sound.
@@michaeljordan7154But just a bit of difference!
Sound goes through a medium and light doesn't.
Sound is a wave and light is a photon particle or a wave.
So light is a transformer and sound is not.
It's just regular robot. 😅
This is the absolute best FREE tip ever. I just eye balled it to see if it made any difference and yes it did. I’ll dial it in tomorrow when I have more time.
I have a Buchardt S400 and played around with toe until I settled on the tweeters facing my ears. Been like this for months. I never even thought of trying extreme toe in. After watching your video, tried it and liked it within the first 3 songs. I think it will be staying this way. Thank you so much, great tweak! Subscribed.
When I used to work for Loews movie theaters. We worked out asymetrical horns that provided equal sound level left to right in coverage pattern. We got imaging in the theater to go from the middle 20% of the theatre to 80% of the theater width. You can't make time alignment correct, but at least the amplitude is equal left to right.
I live in an apartment and have developed the habit of listening nearfield , 6ft away from the speakers. This enables me to get full sound at lower volumes and helps to not disturb the neighbours.
Advantages are that it helps to eliminate a lot of room interaction. I also have my Monitor Audio Bronze 2s toed in to the sweet spot. I tried them with no toe in, and have found that toe in really does give me a rock solid center image and I still have a wide sound stage.
Haven't tried this extreme toe in, but I'm going to give it a whirl and see what happens.
Great video! Keep up the good work!
@@dougg1075 Yes, there is great magic in nearfield listening with tube amps!
My speakers really don't match the combination, so I will be changing them when I can. Good luck on your new system!
Ron, this is the best tip EVER! I used this for the DI's and I am loving it! Thank you for this education!
My friend, I think this has been one of the most unique, helpful, insightful work in audiophile content ever. Please have this approach for more content. This is very helpful and awesome and not just another version of what people talk about reviewing speakers. Awesome awesome work! Thank you! 🙏
Thank you!
I just tried this and it really does lock in that center image a lot more with the Klipsch. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge 👍 You do an awesome job with with your channel man!
Thanks for giving it a shot!
What Klipsch do you have?
@@ohmythatsweird nothing special. R620f, R51m and R34c that I got a crazy deal on. Works great in my apartment but I'm wanting to upgrade to SVS Ultras or the Klipsch RP or RF series soon
@@biff196972 Cool. I've got some RF'S and RP's . Will shift them later on and see how it works out.
I've also done this toe-in for years in my Klipsch RF7-II now and works awesome for phantom center as I recently put them in a 2.1 system. But this masks not having a center speaker pretty well.
Man.. I wish it was frequency Every Day's LOL. Love these types of videos. Keep em coming :)
Did this with Klipsch RF-7 III and wow I was blown away by how much better it sounded. Thank you so much for this video. :)
I’ve been in this hobby for 40 years and it takes a bit to impress me... the fact that it’s a free tweak
... well EUREKA! Great stuff and thank you... WOWED !
Rad!
@@Newrecordday2013 I got home and tried it with my Klipsch forte ii's and wow!!!! i have struggled with locking in a center image and this did it, funny how a simple tweak can change the whole presentation.
What sorcery is this?? I've just tried it with my 600ms and it looks so wrong but the image is razor sharp, and there a ton of depth that's appeared from nowhere. I'm glad you posted this video, I'd never have tried such aggressive toe-in otherwise.
Booooom! Free upgrades!
No, its not sorcerery. Its physics.
My front three speakers are GedLee speakers, built by Earl Geddes, toed in at 45 degrees cross firing a few feet front of me, so basically they are aimed at the farthest seating positions to the left and right, as you showed in this video.
My imaging is superb with both audio and video. I also run multiple subs( as recommended by Earl )setup as he suggests. It sounds quite spectacular. The dynamics are off the charts. Earl truly is a guru when it comes to audio, and his speakers are like magic. He no longer builds speakers so I feel quite lucky to have bought them before he ceased production! Upgraditis is a thing of the past for me after owning these speakers.
If you haven’t listened to a properly setup, proper waveguide speaker, then you’re missing out. I haven’t been impressed by any speakers at any store since buying mine. My wife is happy too since I haven’t felt like buying new speakers ever since I bought these.
If you search for “Earl Geddes” on UA-cam, you can find a few videos of Earl explaining his setup theories. He really knows his stuff! Truly one of the finest minds in the audio world.
Brilliant Ron - really really helpful and thanks for the PDF.
I’m late to the show, as usual. Klipsch’s set up instructions for my Heresy IIIs described this “radical” toe in. It didn’t compute when I opened the boxes last April. This morning I went downstairs to my sub-sub-optimal listening room and shoved them around. Took five minutes. It worked.
I have Bowers 705s2 speakers pointing directly at my seating position at c7 feet and about the same distance apart. This gives me a solid centre image. I did try hyper toe in with my previous floorstanders and it definitely worked. Here’s a tip to know if you have your centre image is tight... If you have a balance control on your amp, like I do (Moon 240i), try moving the dial from centre to left and then go all the way to the right. If all’s well, you should be hearing the singer move across the stage in front of you as if he or she were holding the mic and walking across the room. Give it a try!
Great content. This useful tip solved my left reflection point with my Ls50 Metas.
Thank you! I have JBL 590s and my room is probably a little too small for them so you sit pretty close and the only "good seat" was in the middle for stereo listening. I'm going to have to fiddle with it more because initially I like it! You get a better center image from further off center.
Ron, finally someone has taken the time to investigate and appreciate why corner designed speakers, like some designed back in the forty’s with constant directivity horns sound so good. I really like your educational driven videos.
Thanks Michael!
Constant directivity horns didnt exist in the 40s, and none of the waveguides in this video are constant directivity.
Into The Void, you’re probably right, I should have said uniform directivity, or controlled directivity which which Klipsch used in its 1948 (???) release of its Klipschorn speaker. I believe they filed for patents around ‘39 or ‘41.
It was Earl Geddes that introduced constant directivity waveguide speakers to the audio world.
Extreme toe in can also work on bright speakers. Experimenting with distance between speakers while toing them in can help the sound "let go" the speakers. Tilting certain speakers forward or backwards can make a big difference on some speakers aswell. So guess what, everything affects the sound to some degree :)
So basically Paul Klipsch was a genius when he invented the Klipschorn.
I think that's pretty much accepted - the k-horn seems to make every book on speaker design. If there are naysayers, I guess they're welcome to their opinions.
Klipsch horns properly set up in the right room are awesome.
@@skipperrussell2025 Again, we seem to be in complete agreement. I cant afford k-horns (think double the US price in AUD) but there is a litany of woe from a longtime Klipsch owner on YT where he tried to ignore the corner positioning (per Klipsch own advice for the lastest iteration of the design) and was a very unhappy camper. Very unhappy.
@@arthurwatts1680 I know who you are talking about. I can't watch anymore of his videos. Too long and drawn-out. And now his reviews are a math class.
@@bigelile07 It happens - the perils of an incredibly introspective obsession, I'm afraid. In that particular case, he seems to have continued buying every high-end Klipsch speaker he could until he found one he didnt like, then dashed to YT to tell us all how miserable he was. Audiophilia nervosa being what it is, he subsequently placed the k-horns in their traditional corner position and suddenly he was back in the happy zone - mostly. While I agree with him that the binding posts appear to be cheap and nasty - at least on his pair - a lot of his other misgivings just seemed like something he should have sorted with his dealer well before he took possession of the speakers.
Nice new Studio Ron and great content as usual, thank you!
Thank you! Thought I was the only one who had noticed this a couple years ago.
A day or two after finding the major placement for my budget Yamaha NS-6490s (no waveguides) using your "place your speakers in the dark" instructions, I tried this extreme toe-in. Actually turned out to noticeably widen the soundstage. Physics is weird, but I'm grateful for this - good result.
I've done that same thing with my front towers (traditional, no waveguides) and it helps even out the volume heard from each L/R if sitting on the sides of the couch.
Because the left seat is closer to the left speaker, which is toed in quite a bit, the upper frequency is rolled off, reducing the SPL they would normally hear if there was little or no toe-in. The right speaker, being farther away, is pointed right at them where there is no off-axis roll off. That increases the SPL they'd normally hear when there is little to no toe-in. In short, they get a reduced output from the left and an increased output from the right, which ends up balancing out very well because of the distance differential between them.
This right here, is why I think extreme toe-in makes sense
Yah, I use this method for 2 person listening.
I've tried this with my Kef 201/2s and suddenly ... bass!!
I've a pair of SVS SB2000s now totally unnecessary for 2 channel! Brilliant!
The sweet spot is now huuuge and sound fills the room in a hugely improved way. Bravo!!
More excellent content.
Also, the chops are coming in nicely!
BEST TIP EVER! ....and absolutely logical. THX Man!
Update/after 5-6 hours/: I can not stand my armchair.....one more track, one more track....and OK one more track 😁
I have some klipsch La Scalas from 1983 that I rebuilt. Fully horn loaded from the 15” woofer, to the 1” tweeter and 1.5” midrange. These things are incredible. Very fast, transient, and lifelike. It’s like they’re waiting to create sound and when they do it just hits you with a sense of realism and accuracy I’ve never heard
Good info, thank you for that.
I own a pair of Amphion Argon 3 speakers with waveguides.
Not towing them in at all gave me the best result. But never tried to towing them in this extreme. The result is much better now.
Thnx!
This is amazing! Thanks for sharing! I tried this with my Elac UB5s...Feels like a sweet soundstage spread out in front of me...I'm used to more of a "headphone" type experience. This is nice. Speakers disappear. 👍. I’m sharing with all my friends to experiment.
Ron, you my friend are a beauty. I did exactly that with my S400's. Boy what a revelation. The sound stage expands into and almost 16:9 anamorphic visual equivalent. It is the pin sharp centre image that is pure bliss. A big thank you 🙏
Yessssss! Boom!
@@Newrecordday2013 this keeps giving. i am being drawn to so much more detail while not looking for it or expecting it . the S400's are breathing more openly. singing sweeter, deeper.
they are revealing a more musically rich soundstage while acquiring a surprisingly focussed and analytical quality..and not overdoing it either..love it.
That is what I have been experimenting over the past few weeks now with my DIY Open Baffle speakers. I have a 12" round waveguide with a compression driver and I have them toed in and no matter where I stand in the room or If I move around I still hear a clear center image and no variation in sound, specially HF's
The idea of aggressive toe-in reminds me of the Ohm Walsh speakers that use an omnidirectional woofer paired with a tweeter that points 45° into the center of the room, away from the front baffle. And allow for amazing soundstage and imaging that's good no matter where you are in the room.
Looking forward to my Ohm order for LCRs. I do movies much more often than music as my focus varies too much to be an attentive listener for an extended period. So , I first looked to what will fit MY room. The folks who talk abut bringing their 'stereo' pair 9 feet into a room, YOU don't live alone do you? YOU certainly have a really large room and that is sweet for YOU.
Omni Ohms will give me acoustic space and fit against (at least close) the wall, in my 12 X11 X10 play room.
Yep. Been doing this with my JBL and Kali waveguided speakers. Also helps with first reflections in my room.
Used it on the lsr305 jbls made the imaging more pin point than it already was. Thank you
Yes!!!
Thank you, thank you.....SO cool! Don't know if it has been answered here already, but to what extent could this benefit (if at all) standard - or non-wave guide - speakers? I'll try it anyway to see what it does in my tiny and tonally messy living room.
Great tips ! Lazer pointer tip was like the clouds parted. Never even considered it yet it's quietly resting in my tool box... I know what I'm trying tonight 😁. Fantastic vid... Thanks,Ron.✌️
Thanks bro!
Yes it works very well with some speakers. Zeos Pantera talked about it about a year ago.
Works very well with the lesser, Klipsch R-820-F. Thanks for the video and education!
ken ishiwata used to use pretty extreme toe in even on nonwave guided speaker.
Bravo! Not just speakers with pronounced wave guides. Try it with crossing to opposite ears to opposite ends of wider listening seating areas. Have found this to work exceptionally well when having to set up out of corner or have unequal boundaries. Immediately unpacked individual voices in harmonies and background vocal and the multiple guitars in Nils Lofgren Acoustic Live in an otherwise impossible open concept room with uneven vaults and boundaries. Image density, separation, definition and localization went up ten fold. And no the stage didn't collapse. Things actually made more sense, became easier, more intelligible and more enjoyable for longer listening. Can't keep doing the same old thing the same way and reap new and better outcomes. Explore alternatives. This one is FREE. Thanks Ron.
Ha, super tip! The Kef ls50 is enough of a waveguide for this trick make a noticeable improvement.
Amazing ! It works with the Elac debut 2 5.2 THANKS
Amazing. I tried this extreme toe-in and, OMG. I never knew my Focal Aria 926, are this capable. Thanks.
This is new to me! Thanks for the info bro! I can imagine the physics involved! That's why in commercial movie theaters the sweet spot is large!
I design pro audio systems for churches performing arts centers etc. I have a laser that creates circular laser cones that can be adjusted so the cone is the same dispursion of the speaker. Then you know the coverage of the speaker within the room.and your seating position. Theoretically you are maximizing coverage levels across the width of your couch.
I use this method often & while it is not new it is only mentioned from time to time. Good to see it here. Additionally since 75% of my listening includes my girlfriend, I also use this method (regardless of speaker type). It allows us to get an equal sweet spot that still has a focused stage. This essentially comes from my car audio days as a way to create good imaging for both passengers.(time alignment can not do that for 2 peeps)
Hi Ron, great observation.
I have been practising extreme toe-in because of floor standing speaker (non-wave guide type) proximity to walls that I can't avoid. The other subtle trick I've employed is to place thick anti-vibration pads under the front pair of feet to cause the speaker elements to face up about 10deg.
I wonder if this would compensation for reflections off the floor/ceiling as you mention?
I've been doing this on my Klipsch RP-160Ms for quite a while. Occasionally there will be sidewall reflection issues, which some first reflection room treatment would easily resolve. Especially useful if you're setting up on the long wall and trying to cover the shallow, wide space evenly.
Great video. I have ADS l710 which are known for having a wide dispersion, no wave guide, and were “meant” to be placed facing straight forward from the wall. I have found this to be the case in a large rectangular room. And yet… I found that in a smaller setup, aggressive toe in works wonders to reduce unwanted wall reflections and widen the sweet spot. This makes me wonder if the crossing streams is the way to go with most speakers in a near/mid field small room setup.
Dr. Hsu told me how to do this back in 2009 with his HB1 mkII...they really disappeared a friend of mine with a pair of Fusalears was shocked at the imaging to add to it i was running both of the singled ended Mini Watts which really stepped up the soundstaging even more. Technically many speakers have waveguides these days dual concentrics could benefit from this as well...but some speakers wont need as a severe toe in as the s400 or Hsu Hb1 mkII.
I used this hack on my klipsch rp280 horn type speakers and it works like a charm. Left and right most listening positions got better soundstage.
Crazy, it does firm up my center image. My seating position is probably too close and not exactly on center, so this actually helps. Speakers are B&W 683 S2 so not even the wave guide-iest of wave guides.
Awesome!
Thnx very much! Does a big deal with my A500’s 🎉
What a great recommendation 👌. I have Studio 530s. Now I can really enjoy them. Wonderful sound stage and improved center. Not perfect but pretty damn good.
Awesome!
Wow man! You are totally right. Im not kidding. ...Just did this on my Klipsch and the sound improved ALOT :-D ?? Especially Soundstage , bass and midrange. Anyways... big big ty ! :-D
Thanks again Ron for a great and informative video. It’s one of those videos that make you go...........Hummmmmmmm🤔🤔🤔 I’m trying it with my S400’s tomorrow.
Very good video. I have listened like this for many years. My KEF Metas got a very good off-axis response but I still prefer to listen to them with heavy toe-in.
I like that for most rooms people will have more air space for rear ports of they turn their speakers the way you did which most audiophiles agree greatly improves soundstage and levels off "woofy" bass.
My question (should you choose to accept it) is strictly regarding the KEF "Tangerine Wave Guide" which is very different than the cone diffusion styles of both the Klipsch and Buchardt you spoke about here. One because it is a concentric tweeter and the waveguide is over the tweeter and not around it. Is the KEF waveguide "directional" as you had said and in either case would they benefit from this extreme toe in?
I've tried this extreme toe in, where the left speaker points to the right, and the right to the left, but I find the center image to be, not straight from left to right, but a bit off focus. So I've reverted to slight toe in, where the tweeters slightly point to my ears. This is a pair of KRK Rokit5's.
I did play with toe in with my LRS, I found that toeing in too much reduced the soundstage. I was able to fine tune the toe in so the centre is pin point in the middle and retailed soundstage too. Toeing in too much also meant the off axis sound was really off.
Ron has given me an idea, I’m going to turn my speakers 180 degrees and see what they sound like. Sounds crazy but why not experiment. At the moment the sound is imaged behind the speakers, I wonder if the change will make the sound project towards the front
Love the mad scientists out there!
I agree with the LRSs I have been playing a lot with placement and toe end. One day I might be happy!
Not they sound bad.........I have a placement that I like but will still play with them.
scottyo64 understood, trying to get maximum performance out of the speakers.
I have preferred putting the listening seat in a equilateral triangle with the left and right speakers, I personally like it that way
The LRS and other similar designs have a dipole pattern so the back wave needs to be considered carefully as well as the front. Suffice it to say the back probably shouldn't point directly at the room corners.
The Bose 701 Series 2 have an angle at the tweeter and the sonajero box at the back is angled to reflect sound. This makes the speaker box not have to be angled.
Toe-in, LOL glad to here that old knowledge are still useful:-)
8:21 OH WAIT. By using the front spike, do you also move the speaker outward and thereby change the distance to the back and side wall, try to use the back spike in the same side, it can make a difference, try it:-) Try to tow it even more in, try to aim for the ear furthest from the speaker. And next, try to read about "lean back".
EDIT: Oh forgot, if you want to really play, then try to place the speakers and your listening possession according to the bass distance between each wave, try to let place the speaker so that it's x,5 wave space from the wall and your listening possession the same..
I have Tannoy Turnberry GR speakers. These are wave guide speakers. The owners manual advises to set the toe in so the intersect a foot or two in front of the primary listening position. It also states 15 degrees off axis to the center of each speaker. This aligns closely to what you are saying. I find the off axis listening is the best I have experienced. I can walk around the room and still have a center sound source.
Hey, very interesting video. I've recently upgraded my Klipsch rp-600m's with Dannys Richie's upgrade kit plus some other tweaks like bypass caps, and driver dampening. I like what I'm hearing so far, except, center image and soundstage. There is probably some burn in still needed on my miflex bypass caps. But they have overall a good 100 hours playtime.
I have a semi small listening room like 12-15 ft. listening 8-9 feet away. I probably have my klipschs' toed in about 30 degrees pointing at maybe my shoulders in the sweet spot. My question is should I consider serious toe in like as in crossing in front of my body in the sweet spot? Love any feedback from anyone who's got the klipsch rp6000m especially the upgraded versions, as they are a different animal.
I tried several different positions with my monitor audio silver 600's, Yes I locked in better depths when going extreme ( used madonna's "celebration") where her opening is very obvious left right and bongos of to the right. However I also lost a lot of sound stage and seemed to lose a good portion of tonality. So I for one will stay with a slight toe in. Thanks for the info, it was fun experimenting.
I did this 40 years ago and have used it ever since. I prefer "wave guides" (horns to us old timers) because less sound is reflected from the walls and ceiling and floors. Yes, they have other problems.
Horns transision the energy from the diaphragm to the open air. The high air impedence at the diaphragm needs to be gradually transitioned to the low impedence open air. Horns do that. That is why horns have more "impact", more "live-ness". The difficult part is creating a horn that has good phase across the horn and response, flat frequency response and good transition of sound waves at the born mouth.
You are totally correct. One of the side effects of horns is the ability to control where the sound propagates. I prefer less early reflections.
Good for you. Too many horn projects end up as dog houses. I have built a number of horns, some copies, some original. The results varied, but I learned from each one of them. John Kedzierski11 said "The difficult part is creating a horn that has good phase across the horn and response, flat frequency response and good transition of sound waves at the born mouth." and that is most difficult.
This is the concept, Ken Ishiwata always used for his Listening sessions
So, I tried this with a simple Bose Cinemate system, and this honestly worked wonders. I know, Bose sucks...just using it for movies until I get my real system hooked up again. This really made things a LOT better. Thank you.
Well.. Mother bear! I just tried it with my new JBL 530's. I wanted to send you the photo 😢. It really looks weird and sounds as you described. Great soundstage! By the way. How far apart are your 530's?
I have a horn speaker, HSU Research HB-1 MKII and if I recall they recommended them crossing a few feet in front of the primary listing position which seems is what you are doing here. I normally have them pointing right at me. Maybe I will re-try crossing front of me. I also have a pair of Unifi UB-5s and they are best crossing each other just behind me.
Dr. Hsu sets them up that way at hifi shows and points out how nicely they image even when you're not in the sweet spot.
Ron, interesting video. Helpful. For what its worth, at last years Rocky Mountain Audio Festival, klipsch was showing their RP600M in their room with the speakers extremely towed in, so much so that I asked the rep at the show why they did that because it looked odd and at the time ridiculous to me. No other vendor had their speakers towed in like that which is why it surprised me.. I think their response was around trying to get a better sound for the people sitting in the small room. Its nice to come full circle and get a new perspective!
Yup! I was there and when I saw that toe-in, I laughed! Well, who is laughing now!?
I would love to see Danny start to build some speakers from scratch with CD horn/waveguide loaded MR/HF. Especially the unique passive crossover design considerations. Horns are HOT in the home hi fi market as you've been discovering !
this is in the manual for the Spendor BC1 from the late 1960s
I bought furniture sliders to put under my JBL Studio 590's a week ago. This video kicked me in the butt to finally put em under them and start playing with speaker placement. In my case it was NOT free to play with speaker positioning, the alternative being to throw out my back each time I move the 590's. Cause you can't drag them, it might break the feet. But yeah, furniture sliders, they're cheaper than throwing out your back by a long shot, and no I'm not just going to leave the sliders under there. I'll take them out when I put the 590's in a more permanent setup.
I have seen this being done at audioshows, in fact last year i saw mr ken ishiwata do that to a pair of sonus faber that were played with his marantz gear, they were toed in so much that they were crossed before the first row middle seat
I did this very thing with my car tweeters in the late 80s.
Yup so did i, I also had 3" mids on the dash and they were also crossing streams. Great way to compensate for the unequal paths.
Always the very best, Ron. your always the best. Welcome to fatherdom. They grow up so fast. My little daughter is already 28, and I am so proud of her. She is very successful. I always love your videos. Always informative.
Very interesting video -"Toe-in on Stereoids".
I don't own horn loaded speakers, I might in the future and I really get it now reflecting over how the Klipsch Horn speakers are design basically having the horns pointing 45 degrees inwards. OK, so I have a pair KEF R300 which have a uniqu drivers tweeter mounted coaxial inside the midrange woofer. Can this tweeter setup be treated as a waveguide loaded tweeter? Anyway I will experiment and see if it makes any different. I have a gut feeeling it will.
What do you guys think am I out on thin ice on this one?
BTW, keep on the good work on the channel.
Would be interesting to hear how it works on those concentric drivers...
I currently own some Canton Floorstanders and the are no Horn Speakers, but do have a waveguide...maybe I will try this at some point...
Works on the Adantes for what it’s worth!
@@Newrecordday2013
Thanks for that Info. Something I would like to ask though...did you actually measure the results? I looked at the linked document, and it makes sense on a theoretical basis, but it would be pretty cool to see how the actual Frequency Response, the early Reflections, Impulse Response and so on actually change from "Straight" to "Point at Shoulders" all the way to the cross-eyed configuration of extreme toe-in.
KEF consider their design to be a waveguide.
@@Academicidiot they call it the 'tangerine waveguide'
I think your onto something! I have BIC America pl980 towers (they use a Klipsch neo horn tweeter) I think is an under appreciated ignored speaker/brand and I did the toe in thing and it seemed more dynamic to my ears I guess might call it a sweeter spot I don't know the audiophile terms.my go to song for sound testing is (no my genre at all) Taylor Swift you need to calm down, it has sounds that if you hit that sweet spot is eargasmic. Daddy cools eagle Rock is another that dumps magic on you ear drums, good test song to me anyway, the stereo image blends into magic when it hits your ears😌. That's a couple of good test songs you should try em out.
I have a really wide sectional. Would extreme toe in also work if I gave them to the widest part of the sectional? Klipsch rf7 iii
Tried . I felt center image and depth got More benefit over wider sound stage.
Thanks for giving it a go!
@New Record Day : hey excellent tip . After Listening few songs , actually I am liking. I jut crossed to little over opposite shoulders . Thanks. 👍. I know you mentioned many times .
Also I see it will work for system setup placed in triangle shape. Mine almost triangle set up .
Like your t-shirt Ron! Where did you purchase it? Thanks and take care!
Old Navy
Ron, I do just this with my Klipsch Chorus ll, and my Studio 590 JBL. Read up on Dr. Earl Geddes papers pertaining to constant directivity. Great stuff!
glenn h I bought my three front speakers from Earl..they are the best upgrade I ever made to my AV system!
@@nitrofreakmanho Look UP, I bet those sound fantastic. Do you have the Abbey, or Summa? Are you running dual subs? If you're into DIY, you could go to diyaudio forum and check out username PatrickBateman. He is doing an amazing amount of work with waveguide/ compression driver research/ experimentation, and multiple entry/ synergy / unity horns.
glenn h I haven’t heard any other speakers( myself )that I like more..I’m extremely happy with them. Earl built me the last three Nathan speakers that he made. It was after he quit selling them, and I told him that I couldn’t afford the Abbeys or Summas. He was gracious enough to build me a set of Nathans. Even better, he went above and beyond..he told me that he always wanted to build a set of NN10( New Nathan )speakers, and for a little more money, he’d build mine to that spec..naturally I was excited and told him to go for it. So now I own the only three New Nathan speakers that were ever made. After Earl measured them and sent me the polar plots, and he said that these are the best Nathans he ever measured. They are quite amazing to say the least, I’ve never been happier with my sound system. I can drive them past full reference level volume( up to +11! )depending on the source material, and they get very loud, without making my ears bleed. The dynamics of these speakers is just amazing! I’m so thankful that Earl was kind enough to build them for me.
I used to be on all the popular audio forums, including DYI Audio until I bought the Nathans, and setup my multiple sub system as per Earl’s multi sub setup. I haven’t been on the forums since because I’ve been quite satisfied with my AV system so I wasn’t looking for anymore information on how I can improve my setup.
I’ve read many of Patrick’s( and other very intelligent members’ )posts. In fact, when anybody hears my setup at home, and asks me where they can buy some, I now direct them to DIY Soundgroup since Earl stopped production. I plan on eventually buying myself some waveguides from them for my garage..I’ve got the itch to build a set, and their customers seem pretty happy with their kits, so I know that they’re doing great work. I don’t think they ship to Canada though, but I’ll cross that bridge when I get to it.
I currently run four subs, it didn’t make a huge difference going to four subs from three..three would be the point of diminishing returns though, I wouldn’t run any less than three if you have the space. People who haven’t listened to properly setup waveguide speakers are really missing out, and they should consider doing so before their next speaker purchase IMHO.
Will this work with any speaker that has a tweeter driver sunken below the front baffle surface? I have Zu Omen Dirty Weekends, and I don't think they describe the tweeter assembly as a waveguide, but they do sit well below the surface like the S400's.
Hard to say! Give it a try!
Was that Karate or Tai Chi you were doing at 0:20?
A combo of both, trained under Norris. Back off son!
Do you think that the Tekton Double Impacts would have benefited from such an aggressive toe-in, or even the KEF LS50's ?
isaacsykes3, I tried this with my DI’s and there is definitely a difference you WILL notice! More front to back depth and the expected solid center image.
Ron - wanted to thank you for the tip.
I have UniFi UB5s. Based on your comments, I assumed that the concentric drivers might act something like a horn and tried the exaggerated toe-in (ETI). The difference is not subtle and is, in fact, an astonishing improvement. I doubt, however, that Andrew Jones (AJ) intended that the UB5s should be operated with ETI. At least, I don't recall any such suggestion.
I've tried many variations with non-ETI but no setup even approaches the focus and clarity of ETI mode. Surely AJ is aware of the ETI effect and so, I assume, it must be possible to get somewhat similar performance in non-ETI mode. Does that seem reasonable? If so, how?
AJ actually recommends this setup with the Adantes and I can’t see why it wouldn’t work with the UB5s as well! Concentric and wave guides do share some DNA in directivity so this makes total sense to me. Good work on giving it a shot!
@@Newrecordday2013 Ron - Thanks for mentioning AJ's recommendation on the Adantes. Based on that I did a quick search and found the following comment attributed to AJ on the Polk Forum:
"I never face concentric driver speakers directly at the listening position.
I usually toe them in such that the axis crosses in front of the listener, or behind.
It depends on how far apart the speakers are and how close to sidewalls.
If the sidewalls are close, toe in in front of the listener helps minimize side wall reflections. It also helps develop a very focused center image, at the expense of soundfield size.
If the speakers are far apart, then toe in in front gives you a large image plus center focus.
If the speakers are close, then toe out to just behind the listener helps give a bigger image."
@@Newrecordday2013 Ron - I just wanted to post another note with an observation for all those who drive themselves crazy trying to decide which speaker to buy using the Internet to get information. This simple "trick" underscores how problematic assessing speakers can be. I do not exaggerate when I say the UB5s with ETI sound like substantially higher end speakers. Yet few, if any, speaker reviews that I've seen on the Net provide specific toe-in angles, etc. I hope your video leads to a lot more discussion around this topic on web-based reviews and demos.
Hmmm...how do you rate this for Surround Sound? I. Currently trying it out for my Surround Rears in my 7.2.4 Atmos system. Not sure how much difference it makes yet...
Ive tried it before and It is great but you do lose some detail in the treble compared to "normal" toe in. I landed on a in between. Great video
And... the Klipsch don't sound as bright anymore and the imaging is awesome for my suboptimal room. This was the best tip of the day for me! Thanks :)
Still going to build the X-LS Encores though, but the Klipsch as the HT L/R pair are now perfect.
Extreme toe in has worked wonders on my Heresy I (1980 vintage) which are in room with really bad acoustics (little absorption of any frequency/lots of near reflections). Although I plan to eventually improve the room acoustics (I had done that in another house and it was remarkable how much better the Heresies sounded then), for now this approach seems to have reduced the near reflection issues and improved the soundstage/imaging.
The phantom center returns!!!
Does this work with most speakers? Got Q Acoustics 2050i (+ centre, surround, 2 subs).
Nice!! Free to try. I will, even with my non-waveguide speakers... I don't suffer poor sweet spot imaging but if it preserves that and improves outside the sweet spot imaging then its a win, win... :-)
Awesome! Keep us posted!
Have the RP-600Ms and ended up finding this out by mistake. I turned the toe-in back to "normal" because it just seemed kind of silly, and then ended up changing them back to extreme toe-in again because it just sounded so much better.
Right on!
I don't have waveguide speakers (I have Elac b6.2 and some old Mission 774 floorstanders), but I'll give it a try. Any thoughts on how non-waveguide speakers will respond to this?
Brian Smith it will depend on the design. Not every designer prioritizes consistent measurements on and off axis. There are a lot of poorly designed speakers out there, hence why Danny Richie mods them.