***** You are correct about the rock, that is what was causing the issue. I have a video on selecting grow media here - ua-cam.com/video/wSzGOCHEoeo/v-deo.html. Baked clay or Hydroton are great but very expensive compared to other options. I would recommend it if you are not concerned about cost.
My basement system that was based on gravel beds and had gravel in the aquarium never dropped below 7.8 after two years (usually stayed over 8.0). My big system in the garage that has absolutely no rocks/gravel anywhere (NFT tubes and custom made towers) actually dropped to 4.5 in 6 months. I intentionally embrace carbonates now after that pH crash. I can maintain things between 6.5 and 7.0 now with a filter bag full of baked egg shells inside of my small particulate filter and by using rockwool plugs to grow plants in my NFT tubes.
Got my pea gravel this weekend. Washed it and put it in the system. After 24 hours of running, the pH was the same as the water from my tap. I think it will do fine. Now I need to lower the pH, it is 8.4 coming out of my tap. I bought mine bulk at a gravel yard. I saved over $125.00 what it would have cost at a big box store.
That is very encouraging! I am looking at some local landscape places also and pea gravel might just be my final choice as well. I will have to adjust the size of the holes on my bell siphon guard but I like the idea of the smoother smaller rocks, easy to plant. Thanks for the update!
I had my system running without fail for two weeks without any media, when I added the media, my bell siphon stopped working. I had to saw a LOT of slits in the siphon guard, no matter how many holes I put in the guard, it wouldn't work properly. The smaller gravel kept finding the holes and stopping them up. The pea gravel was $22.50 for a 1/2 a cubic yard which is enough to fill three barrel half's.
Agree on the problem with the rock and the use of hydroton, but like has been said, it is expensive. You could use lava rock and top it with 3 or 4 inches of hydroton. I would stay away from vinegar and any citric acid products as as noted it kills the beneficial bacteria. Would recommend the following; Raise Buffer - Potassium Bicarbonate; Lowering pH - Phosphoric Acid; Raising pH - Potassium Carbonate or Calcium Carbonate.
Great points there. I did use phosphoric acid in the past which is a great way to go. Citric acid is certainly bad but acetic acid ( vinegar) should hurt the bacteria. We now use egg shells to raise pH and add calcium as well (calcium carbonate). Thanks for watching!!
Both "hard" and "soft" water will buffer pH. All the softener does is replace calcium with sodium. Na dissolved compounds do not plate out, so the water is soft to the touch but still won't do jack for pH adjustment. Well water either needs filtered (annoying but cheaper) or RO'd (really expensive and can end up being harmful). Better to just use rainwater.
The problem with a smaller media size however SSL, is that they compact a LOT more. I tried a test run bed with some perlite and it was literally crushing my plant roots with the added weight of the water. So be careful HOW small you go.
That is good advise and I am looking more toward getting some red rock from a local landscape supply instead. It is larger (about the size of the river rock) and so far it has tested neutral for pH. Thanks for the comment!
I flush out my test tube several times before testing, I found that gave me a more accurate reading - I think the old water effected the readings. Also, water Ph can be different before and after it gets oxygenated. Hope that helps.
Great advise,these tests are fairly inaccurate but are great for giving you the general idea of what is going on. Rinsing the test equipment is a must to get a decent result though, thanks for watching!
Hi very interesting video thanks for giving us how we can solve our problem faster. I have on running aquaponic towers and I have the same problem with PH our tap water is around 8.2-8.4 and I m still testing the KH due if you will have the KH high after you will insert the vinegar to adjust the next day you will have the same result from the beginning. Right now I do not have any natural solution to lower the KH,if you have kindly shear with me this. Thanks
it is what it is. pH of 8.0 is ten times more basic than 7.0. it is 100 times more basic than 6.0! your water is very basic. collect rainwater for your system from outside. try adding vermiculite and/or perlite for much of your media. they are mostly neutral and not very reactive (high temp takes care of that.). try a floating raft for greens, I think you will like it! keep working at it!
This spring I will be adding a rain collection system and tapping into that for the top-off. I have recently put in a RO filter and that is working well, pH is slowly coming down and carbonates are at about 6 as of this comment. Also, using Beechwood pebbles now instead of river rock, much better!
Catch rain water and put that in your system if you can, it has a lower PH. I have the same issue with my media. I just recently identified the issue was my media, when I moved my system in to a green house and the rain water could not get in to my pond. I have started collecting as much rain water as I can and it helped lower my PH along with adding vinegar.
Thanks! That is definitely a future plan. I will be building a rain collection system this summer right outside the basement wall that my aquaponics system is on. I plan to pipe in the rain water to my Automatic top-off float in the sump tank, hopefully that will also help.
Just watched all 6 videos on you aquaponic system. Good videos and informative. Question: How long are you leaving your lights on each day? I have a system ready to add media into and was going to use pea gravel. Did you try pea gravel?
Excellent, thanks for watching! I am running the lights about 12-13 hours per day and that seems to be sufficient. As far as the pea gravel, I am going to look into that next as I need to replace my river rock. As long as the pea gravel you get passes the vinegar test I would say that would be a great medium to use. Let me know what you choose!
Hey Family Dad, thanks for the informative videos! I also have a small system in my basement with river rock and have the same problem, can't get the ph below 7.8. I did the vinegar test on the gravel and had the same results as you. I'm contemplating the plunge into expanded clay media if I can't find any suitable gravel locally (once it warms up a little first). Your plants seem to be growing better than mine, what is your flood and drain cycle?
Yeah, I am waiting for the weather to break a bit before I go looking for different gravel as well. I am going to check a few landscape supply places for pea gravel or something similar and test it first! I have my flood and drain setup with about a 8-10 minute cycle. I have also found lighting to be important and certain things do better than others. My bean plant is full of beans now and flowering but the tomatoes look pretty spotty. Thanks for watching and keep me updated on the progress of your system.
Chris Woodland That is most likely what the problem is among others things but the problem is that these nutrients are not available to the plants at a PH higher than 7.5. Even when added directly to the water the nutrients will barely be absorbed by the plants. Thanks for the link! Dr. Story has provided me with a lot of info!
Charles dvan Vinegar works great to lower it in small amounts but the best thing to do is get rid of the carbonates and make sure the water you are adding does not contain carbonates. Good luck over there!
Charles dvan Np at all. I did a video on that stuff that probably best explains it - ua-cam.com/video/NSXmwaPBQp8/v-deo.html. Hope that helps and good luck!
Did you ever remove the carbonates and get your pH down? The carbonates at 7.5pH and above are out of solution, when you lower it and they get close to the 7.5pH mark they are taken back up by the solution and buffer the pH right back up. Just curious if you ever got on top of the pH? Thank you!
+michael nalivayko that is a great idea, we also use crushed egg shells but that brings ph up so in my case at the time that would not help much I am afraid
One tablespoon of fresh squeezed lime juice has the pH value of 4 and can help lower your pH value at your level your plants are having a hard time absorbing their nutriants remember small changes check every 3 days and add more if needed
SSLFamilyDad lemon juice has a value of 2.3 pH and should not be used unless extreme circumstances that is why I use lime juice add directly to fish tank there is a video somewhere on UA-cam about it in smaller amounts then phosphorus acid like only a teaspoon I belive good luck I have used it in my tank with great results
Dude, it's the medium. You will never get your ph fixed with those rocks. The reason the unwashed rock bubble more is just because the loose stone dust reacts more easily. The best thing to do is to get new media ASAP
You are right about that Scott! I have since switched out all of the rock - ua-cam.com/video/wSzGOCHEoeo/v-deo.html and also am now using filtered water as well which has also helped - ua-cam.com/video/_TZdObR4A0s/v-deo.html. Thanks for watching and commenting!
DRUMofTRUTH I agree hydroton is much better but to me not really worth the extra cost. This is an older video and I have long since switched to a stone called beechwood pebbles which has worked great at a fraction of the cost. Thanks for checking it out!
This is one of the biggest problems with using rock/gravel in any system. Replace your rocks with an inert grow medium (hydroton, hydrostones) specially designed for these systems. Also replace your PH tester. At over 8.0 your fish should be dying. Your ph tester may be bad and giving you false readings. Lastly you should never ever use vinegar or citric acid in your system. They are both anti-microbial acids and can (and WILL) kill off your beneficial bacteria. Vinegar will kill of the bacteria you want and encourage the growth of other non-beneficial bacteria and yeast (kombucha?).
79kcaton Thanks for the great advice, this was an update from last year and I have since replaced the river rock with better media. I am not a fan of using hydroton due to the cost and the fact that it breaks down over time. There are lots of other pH neutral solutions out there if you are willing to look beyond just what everyone else is using. pH over 8 is not harmful to most fish, especially gold fish which can handle even higher pH levels than that. Now, Tilapia or other fish would probably not take to that pH for sure. Citric acid will definitely kill the bacteria as I described in one of my earlier videos. Vinegar(acetic Acid) however, is not an anti microbial but a very weak acid. I have been using vinegar to deal with and moderate carbonates in the system for years with no ill effects to the nitrification cycle. Thanks for sharing your experience here and I appreciate your opinion!
SSLFamilyDad I agree 100% with the hydoton. I have switched to hydro stones. They are way better for bacterial growth and Ive not had any issues with anaerobic zones. However, though vinegar is not technically a anti-microbial it can (and will under the right conditions) ruin a bacterial colony. Vinegar does kill and or inoculate many strains of bacteria and some are beneficial. Like it or not there are bad bacteria in our systems but if we have done our jobs right they have no footing. BUT when our good bacteria gets killed or is weak, those bad guys get a chance to take over. It could take over a week to notice you have a problem and by then its a big problem. Vinegar can inoculate your good bacteria and not effect an invading "bad" bacteria at all. So if this happens then adding more vinegar just compounds the problem. Before you know it your PH is going crazy and you have a swamp of nasty bacteria that smells like a teenagers week old gym sock. A healthy system full of strong bacteria shouldn't have a problem with vinegar (and could go years without a problem), but if you are having PH issues (that could be caused by harmful bacteria) then I would absolutely never use vinegar to adjust PH. I used vinegar for about a year before I had a problem and that problem caused me to have to completely disassemble my system, sanitize and start over. I exclusively use phosphoric acid in my organic hydro and aquaponic systems. Its cheep, i don't have to use much and I know its safe. !Win Win! In my personal opinion using vinegar is asking for a problem. Good luck, your vids are great, please keep them coming.
79kcaton Thanks for sharing that experience and I agree with you on the vinegar point. I haven't had an issue during that time as I was adding small amounts but thankfully I now have better grow media and don't have an issue with pH. Thanks for commenting and checking out the system!
Here is an update on the indoor aquaponics setup. Looks like I will have some work ahead of me to get the balance right but things are still growing!
***** You are correct about the rock, that is what was causing the issue. I have a video on selecting grow media here - ua-cam.com/video/wSzGOCHEoeo/v-deo.html. Baked clay or Hydroton are great but very expensive compared to other options. I would recommend it if you are not concerned about cost.
My basement system that was based on gravel beds and had gravel in the aquarium never dropped below 7.8 after two years (usually stayed over 8.0). My big system in the garage that has absolutely no rocks/gravel anywhere (NFT tubes and custom made towers) actually dropped to 4.5 in 6 months. I intentionally embrace carbonates now after that pH crash. I can maintain things between 6.5 and 7.0 now with a filter bag full of baked egg shells inside of my small particulate filter and by using rockwool plugs to grow plants in my NFT tubes.
Got my pea gravel this weekend. Washed it and put it in the system. After 24 hours of running, the pH was the same as the water from my tap. I think it will do fine. Now I need to lower the pH, it is 8.4 coming out of my tap. I bought mine bulk at a gravel yard. I saved over $125.00 what it would have cost at a big box store.
That is very encouraging! I am looking at some local landscape places also and pea gravel might just be my final choice as well. I will have to adjust the size of the holes on my bell siphon guard but I like the idea of the smoother smaller rocks, easy to plant. Thanks for the update!
I had my system running without fail for two weeks without any media, when I added the media, my bell siphon stopped working. I had to saw a LOT of slits in the siphon guard, no matter how many holes I put in the guard, it wouldn't work properly. The smaller gravel kept finding the holes and stopping them up. The pea gravel was $22.50 for a 1/2 a cubic yard which is enough to fill three barrel half's.
You might want to look into adding a grow bed with soil... Soil help lower the PH and makes the food taste better
Agree on the problem with the rock and the use of hydroton, but like has been said, it is expensive. You could use lava rock and top it with 3 or 4 inches of hydroton.
I would stay away from vinegar and any citric acid products as as noted it kills the beneficial bacteria. Would recommend the following; Raise Buffer - Potassium Bicarbonate; Lowering pH - Phosphoric Acid; Raising pH - Potassium Carbonate or Calcium Carbonate.
Great points there. I did use phosphoric acid in the past which is a great way to go. Citric acid is certainly bad but acetic acid ( vinegar) should hurt the bacteria. We now use egg shells to raise pH and add calcium as well (calcium carbonate). Thanks for watching!!
Both "hard" and "soft" water will buffer pH. All the softener does is replace calcium with sodium. Na dissolved compounds do not plate out, so the water is soft to the touch but still won't do jack for pH adjustment. Well water either needs filtered (annoying but cheaper) or RO'd (really expensive and can end up being harmful). Better to just use rainwater.
The problem with a smaller media size however SSL, is that they compact a LOT more. I tried a test run bed with some perlite and it was literally crushing my plant roots with the added weight of the water. So be careful HOW small you go.
That is good advise and I am looking more toward getting some red rock from a local landscape supply instead. It is larger (about the size of the river rock) and so far it has tested neutral for pH. Thanks for the comment!
adding a computer fan above your beds will strengthen your plant stems and also cuts down the high temps
I flush out my test tube several times before testing, I found that gave me a more accurate reading - I think the old water effected the readings.
Also, water Ph can be different before and after it gets oxygenated. Hope that helps.
Great advise,these tests are fairly inaccurate but are great for giving you the general idea of what is going on. Rinsing the test equipment is a must to get a decent result though, thanks for watching!
Hi very interesting video thanks for giving us how we can solve our problem faster. I have on running aquaponic towers and I have the same problem with PH our tap water is around 8.2-8.4 and I m still testing the KH due if you will have the KH high after you will insert the vinegar to adjust the next day you will have the same result from the beginning. Right now I do not have any natural solution to lower the KH,if you have kindly shear with me this. Thanks
Is very good but, I think do you need es air fen to flow in your system, should is too hot the light.
it is what it is. pH of 8.0 is ten times more basic than 7.0. it is 100 times more basic than 6.0!
your water is very basic. collect rainwater for your system from outside. try adding vermiculite and/or perlite for much of your media. they are mostly neutral and not very reactive (high temp takes care of that.).
try a floating raft for greens, I think you will like it!
keep working at it!
This spring I will be adding a rain collection system and tapping into that for the top-off. I have recently put in a RO filter and that is working well, pH is slowly coming down and carbonates are at about 6 as of this comment. Also, using Beechwood pebbles now instead of river rock, much better!
Catch rain water and put that in your system if you can, it has a lower PH. I have the same issue with my media. I just recently identified the issue was my media, when I moved my system in to a green house and the rain water could not get in to my pond. I have started collecting as much rain water as I can and it helped lower my PH along with adding vinegar.
Thanks! That is definitely a future plan. I will be building a rain collection system this summer right outside the basement wall that my aquaponics system is on. I plan to pipe in the rain water to my Automatic top-off float in the sump tank, hopefully that will also help.
Just watched all 6 videos on you aquaponic system. Good videos and informative.
Question:
How long are you leaving your lights on each day?
I have a system ready to add media into and was going to use pea gravel. Did you try pea gravel?
Excellent, thanks for watching! I am running the lights about 12-13 hours per day and that seems to be sufficient. As far as the pea gravel, I am going to look into that next as I need to replace my river rock. As long as the pea gravel you get passes the vinegar test I would say that would be a great medium to use. Let me know what you choose!
Hey Family Dad, thanks for the informative videos! I also have a small system in my basement with river rock and have the same problem, can't get the ph below 7.8. I did the vinegar test on the gravel and had the same results as you. I'm contemplating the plunge into expanded clay media if I can't find any suitable gravel locally (once it warms up a little first). Your plants seem to be growing better than mine, what is your flood and drain cycle?
Yeah, I am waiting for the weather to break a bit before I go looking for different gravel as well. I am going to check a few landscape supply places for pea gravel or something similar and test it first! I have my flood and drain setup with about a 8-10 minute cycle. I have also found lighting to be important and certain things do better than others. My bean plant is full of beans now and flowering but the tomatoes look pretty spotty. Thanks for watching and keep me updated on the progress of your system.
Chris Woodland That is most likely what the problem is among others things but the problem is that these nutrients are not available to the plants at a PH higher than 7.5. Even when added directly to the water the nutrients will barely be absorbed by the plants. Thanks for the link! Dr. Story has provided me with a lot of info!
i have the same thing going on have added the vinegar thanks i found that the hot water tank will start at lower ph .
Charles dvan Vinegar works great to lower it in small amounts but the best thing to do is get rid of the carbonates and make sure the water you are adding does not contain carbonates. Good luck over there!
thanks just starting out. herbs like just about any water so far well thanks how do i check for carbonates if you get time to get back to me chuck :)
Charles dvan Np at all. I did a video on that stuff that probably best explains it - ua-cam.com/video/NSXmwaPBQp8/v-deo.html. Hope that helps and good luck!
Did you ever remove the carbonates and get your pH down? The carbonates at 7.5pH and above are out of solution, when you lower it and they get close to the 7.5pH mark they are taken back up by the solution and buffer the pH right back up. Just curious if you ever got on top of the pH? Thank you!
+Nathan Davis i sure did, using a filter now and over time ph dropped and now i need to raise it every few weeks
Awesome! Thanks for the reply!
Do you think it was more the rocks or the carbonates? Are you using a RO filter or another type?
Your High PH could be due to the media. Rocks have a lot of calcium carbonate. It takes years to wash it out of even small pebbles.
use crushed oyster shells as a ph balancer, i watched a few videos on aquaponics and a guy recommended that.
+michael nalivayko that is a great idea, we also use crushed egg shells but that brings ph up so in my case at the time that would not help much I am afraid
i would think its your grow media? i could be wrong. ap is very forgiving. just do things in small measures.
does the vinegar in the system affect the fish? how?
miwin1000 Vinegar or Acetic Acid does not affect the fish it is neutralized by the carbonates in the water.
Replace the battery in your smoke alarm.
Done and done, got so used to it I forgot it was still beeping, thanks for watching!!
Haha I thought it was mine At first
One tablespoon of fresh squeezed lime juice has the pH value of 4 and can help lower your pH value at your level your plants are having a hard time absorbing their nutriants remember small changes check every 3 days and add more if needed
Lime juice contains citric acid which will kill the needed bacteria in the system. Tried it with lemon juice and it was a bad deal!
SSLFamilyDad lemon juice has a value of 2.3 pH and should not be used unless extreme circumstances that is why I use lime juice add directly to fish tank there is a video somewhere on UA-cam about it in smaller amounts then phosphorus acid like only a teaspoon I belive good luck I have used it in my tank with great results
Dude, it's the medium. You will never get your ph fixed with those rocks. The reason the unwashed rock bubble more is just because the loose stone dust reacts more easily. The best thing to do is to get new media ASAP
You are right about that Scott! I have since switched out all of the rock - ua-cam.com/video/wSzGOCHEoeo/v-deo.html and also am now using filtered water as well which has also helped - ua-cam.com/video/_TZdObR4A0s/v-deo.html. Thanks for watching and commenting!
Reduce the number of fish By half, tranfer to temporary tank.
Your broccoli plant doesn't look like normal heading broccoli...
hydroton is by far superior. you get what you pay for. no doubt. this is the conundrum to ap. committment issues, lol hang in there brother
DRUMofTRUTH I agree hydroton is much better but to me not really worth the extra cost. This is an older video and I have long since switched to a stone called beechwood pebbles which has worked great at a fraction of the cost. Thanks for checking it out!
Your plants look to be in early stages of potassium deficiency. i suspect that's why your cucumber plant i yellow and not growing.
This is one of the biggest problems with using rock/gravel in any system. Replace your rocks with an inert grow medium (hydroton, hydrostones) specially designed for these systems. Also replace your PH tester. At over 8.0 your fish should be dying. Your ph tester may be bad and giving you false readings. Lastly you should never ever use vinegar or citric acid in your system. They are both anti-microbial acids and can (and WILL) kill off your beneficial bacteria. Vinegar will kill of the bacteria you want and encourage the growth of other non-beneficial bacteria and yeast (kombucha?).
79kcaton Thanks for the great advice, this was an update from last year and I have since replaced the river rock with better media. I am not a fan of using hydroton due to the cost and the fact that it breaks down over time. There are lots of other pH neutral solutions out there if you are willing to look beyond just what everyone else is using. pH over 8 is not harmful to most fish, especially gold fish which can handle even higher pH levels than that. Now, Tilapia or other fish would probably not take to that pH for sure. Citric acid will definitely kill the bacteria as I described in one of my earlier videos. Vinegar(acetic Acid) however, is not an anti microbial but a very weak acid. I have been using vinegar to deal with and moderate carbonates in the system for years with no ill effects to the nitrification cycle. Thanks for sharing your experience here and I appreciate your opinion!
SSLFamilyDad I agree 100% with the hydoton. I have switched to hydro stones. They are way better for bacterial growth and Ive not had any issues with anaerobic zones. However, though vinegar is not technically a anti-microbial it can (and will under the right conditions) ruin a bacterial colony. Vinegar does kill and or inoculate many strains of bacteria and some are beneficial. Like it or not there are bad bacteria in our systems but if we have done our jobs right they have no footing. BUT when our good bacteria gets killed or is weak, those bad guys get a chance to take over. It could take over a week to notice you have a problem and by then its a big problem. Vinegar can inoculate your good bacteria and not effect an invading "bad" bacteria at all. So if this happens then adding more vinegar just compounds the problem. Before you know it your PH is going crazy and you have a swamp of nasty bacteria that smells like a teenagers week old gym sock. A healthy system full of strong bacteria shouldn't have a problem with vinegar (and could go years without a problem), but if you are having PH issues (that could be caused by harmful bacteria) then I would absolutely never use vinegar to adjust PH. I used vinegar for about a year before I had a problem and that problem caused me to have to completely disassemble my system, sanitize and start over. I exclusively use phosphoric acid in my organic hydro and aquaponic systems. Its cheep, i don't have to use much and I know its safe. !Win Win! In my personal opinion using vinegar is asking for a problem. Good luck, your vids are great, please keep them coming.
79kcaton Thanks for sharing that experience and I agree with you on the vinegar point. I haven't had an issue during that time as I was adding small amounts but thankfully I now have better grow media and don't have an issue with pH. Thanks for commenting and checking out the system!
ARGH! Another smoke alarm with a low battery beeping in a youtube video!
WTF is wrong with people?