Thats a fantastic question! And i dont understand why a shrunken magnet in a MM type might not be extremely desirable...a)it would give user replaceable styli b)the stylus would track more accurately. Well done for thinking of this smart question!!
There are low output non-MC cartridges like those from Grado Labs & Soundsmith, which are "moving iron" cartridges, which have low mass, as well as be run into a MC phono stage.
Still using Stanton 680/ 681 series moving iron. Very nice sound stage. Extremely versatile with a stylus for every purpose. The nude mounted ones are pretty low in mass. The ease and cost of replacement is certainly a benefit. It's a shame that Gibson dropped the ball on Stanton It's the 681 has been my go to since1978. Thankfully Japanese aftermarket is pretty good for these .
HI, I have many cartridges, including a Eat #5, Goldring, Love my Clear Audio Goldfinger and my Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum. Turntables, VPI Direct and EAT Forte S. Looking to adquire a new Turntable soon to replace my VPI direct.
I've been well & truly "been bitten by the MC bug", having used them for over 30 years; including Audio Technica OC-9 & 3 Lyras - Helikon, Skala & now Etna Lambda. Prior to that I was a huge fan of Grado (& still am), having used a Signarure 8 Revised from 1984.
The question is fair and there are examples of cartridges made with such compromise obviously benefitting from lower mass needing MC phono input. I think one reason you don’t want to do it is the signal quality is less than MC.
We have achieved the ' no mass' phono cartridge .. the DS audio DS003 optical ... there's no mass ! It does however require a different phono stage .. I've recently acquired one and I highly recommend it 👍
It's not massless. It just has optical sensors instead of coils which are lower mass. But you are thinking about the old laser systems that bounced light off the record which is massless.
@@SpyderTracks All optical devices work in the analog domain. In fact you could take a LED, shine a light on it, and generate a tiny voltage. If you could wiggle the intensity of the light, you would get a tiny analog AC noise across the terminals of the LED. IDK how DS specifically designed their phono setup, but it is entirely possible it is analog.
Who says MC has lower mass, copper coils on iron cross, all dense materials vs a rather small magnet of samarian- cobalt like on a Stanton. But it doesn’t really matter as all that mass is in close proximity to the pivot point and contributes little to the inertia, like the heavy counterweight in a tonearm. The cantilever and stylus are far more important. Tapered aluminium is probably the lightest, and small shank stylus, also shorter cantilever (some Dynavector). In the 70’s exotic MM cartridges with unobtanium cantilevers(tubular beryllium, boron or sapphire) would state their effective mass in spec sheets, nobody does that anymore. The top MC cartridges today use heavy diamond cantilevers, so light mass is not what drives performance. Maybe it is market driven, Soundsmith makes low output versions because that’s what people expect in an expensive cartridge.
Stanton once made some moving-magnet cartridges that had the low output of typical MC cartridges. I don't see much point in those products, unless they reduced the mass of the magnet, accepting a reduction in output voltage. I'm wondering if Stanton did exactly what the query suggests.
@@bestuurdvsgroningen3603 I don't think so. The model numbers I've found are 980LZS and 981LZS. The descriptions I've found are that these were moving-magnet types, but I haven't yet located any official advertising or spec sheets for them. They were already out-of-production by the time of my oldest Stereo Buyer's Guide (1993).
Sounded to me like the idea of the question was to move the MM form closer to comparable MC performance at a more accessible (lower) co$t than those ultra pricey MC cartridges?
@@StopAndGetGas My repeated attempts to reply have not been posted. We'll see if this reply "takes." The Stanton models were 980LSZ and 981LSZ. There might've also been "MkII" versions, also. They were moving magnet designs. The point is this: The exact thing that the OP suggested to Paul McGowan has, in fact, been tried. I'm surprised that Mr. McGown has no knowledge of this, given his long experience in hi-end audio.
Old tech, been around for awhile. And it outputs a digital signal. Why have an analog source if you convert it to digital. Like blutooth or USB on a turntable
The voltage output is a direct relationship between the number of coils moving through a specific magnetic field. All else equal, smaller magnets would be less voltage. Moving them down into the MC area. Variable reluctance. Fixed coil and magnet structure. Moving metal between them to vary the magnetic field that way. The metal is far less mass than either a magnet or coil. Acutex came out with a line using this after Audio Technica came out with their line which had the patented dual magnet V design. AT sued Acutex because they copied the dual magnetic V structure patent.
Pickering has made exactly such cartridge in the past (I believe something with 7800 in the model name). I would call that a proof of concept. It was highly regarded as well. So if you ask why they don't make it any more (under the Stanton name)? I would say it is not a given that it was not good enough. I guess they lost the know how. The same happened with Shure, and sadly they gave up on phono cartridges all together. Stanton is holding on for dear life. You could conciser them a Zombie company.
For once Paul seems to have sidestepped the question, although he seems to understand it. Two (dominant) wiggly groove playback technologies: MM high output plus high moving stuff mass negative; MC low output minus low moving stuff mass positive, wires connect to stuff attached to needle, negative (and nobody seems concerned with the necessary bending of those wires adding to inertia). So why not strike a balance by reducing the mass in a MM?
Kind of a confused answer. On the one hand you're saying "the less mass the better", yet on the other hand you're saying "I don't understand why you'd want to reduce the mass".
phono cartridge technology goes back to pre world war times , Boss , i think , production of phono cartridge , should be discontinued a long time ago , as it is only a mechanical to electrical signal transducer , doesn't last long, too expensive , very much antiquated by modern technological standards.
This is the first time I have felt like bs coming from you until the final "I donno". It is actually an interesting question and I'd actually like to hear an answer that made sense. Sorry; but you didn't help yourself with this one.
@0:59 "You have a cantilever, which is the needle." Stereos do not have needles. It is a stylus. I wonder... would he call a stylus a needle if he were in a meeting with the executives and top engineers of Clearaudio, Air Tight, VPI, Ortofon, SME, Koetsu, Lyra, etc? Doesn't he know that such executives and engineers watch these videos? Let's not have an educational channel misinform the viewers. This is not the first time that our host has done that. He has done it in several videos.
Maybe it's a "stylus" to you highfalutin types, but "needle" was the term that was always used back in the day. (As in, you started playing a record by "dropping the needle" on it, never did I hear "dropping the stylus" used.) And, yeah, I bet he'd get in meetings with the top cartridge engineers these days and use "needle" without shame or embarrassment, because old farts like us don't give a dang what young snobs think about nonsense like that.
Paul is well aware that it is called a stylus and he probably could talk at length about all of the stylus profiles should he wish to. His issue is that he is trying to be accessible to people who are a bit hazy about the technicalities.
Oooh no Snowflakes have arrived in the hi-fi hobby 🤣 Gotta be careful what pronouns we use now 😂 Sir, is the speaker male or female? Or is it non-binary?
Paul’s speakers are designed to play digital sources at their best. They aren’t really for analogue playback. Hence, Paul isn’t really into analogue domain except for few phono-stages. For vinyl playback, 2-way speakers are enough.
The advantage would be still an interchangeable stylus, even if all other parameters (such as output) were identical.
Thats a fantastic question! And i dont understand why a shrunken magnet in a MM type might not be extremely desirable...a)it would give user replaceable styli b)the stylus would track more accurately.
Well done for thinking of this smart question!!
There are low output non-MC cartridges like those from Grado Labs & Soundsmith, which are "moving iron" cartridges, which have low mass, as well as be run into a MC phono stage.
Big fan of moving iron myself. Got an empire 2000e/i a couple of years ago and it still blows my mind.
Very good cartridges actually.
Still using Stanton 680/ 681 series moving iron. Very nice sound stage. Extremely versatile with a stylus for every purpose. The nude mounted ones are pretty low in mass. The ease and cost of replacement is certainly a benefit. It's a shame that Gibson dropped the ball on Stanton It's the 681 has been my go to since1978. Thankfully Japanese aftermarket is pretty good for these .
HI, I have many cartridges, including a Eat #5, Goldring, Love my Clear Audio Goldfinger and my Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum. Turntables, VPI Direct and EAT Forte S. Looking to adquire a new Turntable soon to replace my VPI direct.
I've been well & truly "been bitten by the MC bug", having used them for over 30 years; including Audio Technica OC-9 & 3 Lyras - Helikon, Skala & now Etna Lambda.
Prior to that I was a huge fan of Grado (& still am), having used a Signarure 8 Revised from 1984.
The question is fair and there are examples of cartridges made with such compromise obviously benefitting from lower mass needing MC phono input. I think one reason you don’t want to do it is the signal quality is less than MC.
We have achieved the ' no mass' phono cartridge .. the DS audio DS003 optical ... there's no mass ! It does however require a different phono stage .. I've recently acquired one and I highly recommend it 👍
It’s not phono, it’s digital. All done by optical lasers
@@SpyderTracksit plays vinyl records only ... I've not come across digital vinyl recordings
There is mass, the light stream is modulated by a lightweight shield
It's not massless. It just has optical sensors instead of coils which are lower mass. But you are thinking about the old laser systems that bounced light off the record which is massless.
@@SpyderTracks All optical devices work in the analog domain. In fact you could take a LED, shine a light on it, and generate a tiny voltage. If you could wiggle the intensity of the light, you would get a tiny analog AC noise across the terminals of the LED. IDK how DS specifically designed their phono setup, but it is entirely possible it is analog.
Who says MC has lower mass, copper coils on iron cross, all dense materials vs a rather small magnet of samarian- cobalt like on a Stanton. But it doesn’t really matter as all that mass is in close proximity to the pivot point and contributes little to the inertia, like the heavy counterweight in a tonearm.
The cantilever and stylus are far more important. Tapered aluminium is probably the lightest, and small shank stylus, also shorter cantilever (some Dynavector).
In the 70’s exotic MM cartridges with unobtanium cantilevers(tubular beryllium, boron or sapphire) would state their effective mass in spec sheets, nobody does that anymore.
The top MC cartridges today use heavy diamond cantilevers, so light mass is not what drives performance.
Maybe it is market driven, Soundsmith makes low output versions because that’s what people expect in an expensive cartridge.
Stanton once made some moving-magnet cartridges that had the low output of typical MC cartridges. I don't see much point in those products, unless they reduced the mass of the magnet, accepting a reduction in output voltage. I'm wondering if Stanton did exactly what the query suggests.
The stantons you mean are probably moving iron
@@bestuurdvsgroningen3603 I don't think so. The model numbers I've found are 980LZS and 981LZS. The descriptions I've found are that these were moving-magnet types, but I haven't yet located any official advertising or spec sheets for them. They were already out-of-production by the time of my oldest Stereo Buyer's Guide (1993).
@@bestuurdvsgroningen3603 No. Stanton 980LZS. Moving magnet. My attempts to post a reply with a link have not worked.
Sounded to me like the idea of the question was to move the MM form closer to comparable MC performance at a more accessible (lower) co$t than those ultra pricey MC cartridges?
@@StopAndGetGas My repeated attempts to reply have not been posted. We'll see if this reply "takes." The Stanton models were 980LSZ and 981LSZ. There might've also been "MkII" versions, also. They were moving magnet designs. The point is this: The exact thing that the OP suggested to Paul McGowan has, in fact, been tried. I'm surprised that Mr. McGown has no knowledge of this, given his long experience in hi-end audio.
The new tech is optical cartridge for phono.
The closest to a "massless" system.
@@stephenchen1420They did that in the early 80's it's called a CD player.
@@RoderikvanReekum , noted, a completely different format!
Old tech, been around for awhile.
And it outputs a digital signal. Why have an analog source if you convert it to digital. Like blutooth or USB on a turntable
@@RoderikvanReekum in 1941 it was philco beam of light
ua-cam.com/video/GIdi7BTtTlM/v-deo.htmlsi=dbk-Jgdk_c6qUlcX
The voltage output is a direct relationship between the number of coils moving through a specific magnetic field. All else equal, smaller magnets would be less voltage. Moving them down into the MC area.
Variable reluctance. Fixed coil and magnet structure. Moving metal between them to vary the magnetic field that way. The metal is far less mass than either a magnet or coil. Acutex came out with a line using this after Audio Technica came out with their line which had the patented dual magnet V design. AT sued Acutex because they copied the dual magnetic V structure patent.
Inertia, a property of Mass in Classical Physics.
DS Audio produce an optical cartridge which has an optical reader, and low mass, i have never heard one used.
The Ortofon OM series are incredibly small must have a small magnet then?
Pickering has made exactly such cartridge in the past (I believe something with 7800 in the model name). I would call that a proof of concept. It was highly regarded as well. So if you ask why they don't make it any more (under the Stanton name)? I would say it is not a given that it was not good enough. I guess they lost the know how. The same happened with Shure, and sadly they gave up on phono cartridges all together. Stanton is holding on for dear life. You could conciser them a Zombie company.
Stanton was sold to Gibson....that pretty much explains what happened.
I think the mass was shrunk with the introduction of neodymium to give same field strength but smaller.
For once Paul seems to have sidestepped the question, although he seems to understand it. Two (dominant) wiggly groove playback technologies: MM high output plus high moving stuff mass negative; MC low output minus low moving stuff mass positive, wires connect to stuff attached to needle, negative (and nobody seems concerned with the necessary bending of those wires adding to inertia). So why not strike a balance by reducing the mass in a MM?
No Mas…No Mas I’ve had enough with this cartridge talk.
That's how it works. Someone like Albert Einstein didn't make many mistakes.
Kind of a confused answer. On the one hand you're saying "the less mass the better", yet on the other hand you're saying "I don't understand why you'd want to reduce the mass".
phono cartridge technology goes back to pre world war times , Boss , i think , production of phono cartridge , should be discontinued a long time ago , as it is only a mechanical to electrical signal transducer , doesn't last long, too expensive , very much antiquated by modern technological standards.
Doesn't last long???
I have cartridges nearly 50 years old that still work perfectly.
And none of them were "expensive".
I don't see any reason to reinvent phono cartridges.
This is the first time I have felt like bs coming from you until the final "I donno". It is actually an interesting question and I'd actually like to hear an answer that made sense. Sorry; but you didn't help yourself with this one.
@0:59 "You have a cantilever, which is the needle."
Stereos do not have needles.
It is a stylus.
I wonder... would he call a stylus a needle if he were in a meeting with the executives and top engineers of Clearaudio, Air Tight, VPI, Ortofon, SME, Koetsu, Lyra, etc?
Doesn't he know that such executives and engineers watch these videos?
Let's not have an educational channel misinform the viewers. This is not the first time that our host has done that. He has done it in several videos.
Maybe it's a "stylus" to you highfalutin types, but "needle" was the term that was always used back in the day. (As in, you started playing a record by "dropping the needle" on it, never did I hear "dropping the stylus" used.) And, yeah, I bet he'd get in meetings with the top cartridge engineers these days and use "needle" without shame or embarrassment, because old farts like us don't give a dang what young snobs think about nonsense like that.
Paul is well aware that it is called a stylus and he probably could talk at length about all of the stylus profiles should he wish to. His issue is that he is trying to be accessible to people who are a bit hazy about the technicalities.
Old school people have called it a needle for decades.
Oooh no
Snowflakes have arrived in the hi-fi hobby 🤣
Gotta be careful what pronouns we use now 😂
Sir, is the speaker male or female? Or is it non-binary?
Paul’s speakers are designed to play digital sources at their best. They aren’t really for analogue playback. Hence, Paul isn’t really into analogue domain except for few phono-stages. For vinyl playback, 2-way speakers are enough.