This was one of the saddest but also most inspirational GDC talks i have seen. I generally love the idea of breaking the taboo of speaking about failure, but this one was special.
Thank you for sharing your hard times for others to learn from, that's incredibly brave of you all. Mental health issues do not get nearly enough attention in the video game industry. There is a huge amount of constant uncertainty in the industry, which can easily develop into chronic anxiety and depression, if left unchecked. Small studios especially are in danger of this, since they have less support structures in place. Attitudes also need adjustment. The reclusive genius is still celebrated as something to aspire to, despite how psychologically damaging that way of living has been found; Giving your all all the time and sacrificing everything just to be able to make games is still normalized, no matter how many people burn themselves out because of it. Although there is no simple solution, no silver bullet, the first step of solving these problems is always to start talking about them more openly and honestly, and creating an environment where it is safe to talk without fear of judgment or negative consequences.
@@gayan1742 they tried to go straight outa college into running a small studio, he says at the start "we had the knowledge, 3d graphics, programing" he dosnt mention once that anyone on the team had any kind of experience or idea of how to run a small business.....
@@gayan1742 indie is way to vague of a term. Some indies are built on low/no budget, but games like Hades or Ancestors : The Humankind Odyssey are still considered "indie" even though they have absolutely monstrous budgets and team sizes.
I can extremely relate to Jon's talk. He might as well have been talking about me. That negative feedback loop, self-isolating, the aspiration of being a solo auteur... I can relate to all of it. The biggest difference maker in my own life has been building asking for help into the everyday. This is not something I've found easy, not so much because the asking is hard (though it is) but because I almost seem to entirely lack the instinct of when to ask. The right moment to ask for help simply never occurs to me naturally. It's only with the help of a close friend kinda training me that I've developed that ability. These days one of my best coping mechanisms is oversharing how I'm feeling just to make sure that if I do need help, but don't yet recognise it, maybe my oversharing will help someone else see that I'm struggling and maybe they'll want to lend me a hand. I'm not really going anywhere with this, just wanted to share.
I love GDC talks, watch em all the time, but as a small independent business owner this talk was extra meaningful and I really appreciate the speakers for sharing. Thanks!
Great video, and some courage talks. Especially the first two speakers, Jon and Juan, it takes guts to stand up there and tell a not-so glamorous story.
To all speakers, thank you for sharing. To Jon, I know the feeling and self-inflicted pain from frustration. I wish you well. I have the same although I am much older, my "wisdom", did not make a difference in preventing it from happening. What you said about creating a toxic/deconstructive environment hits the key solution imho. My problems started out later when working solo, before that I was "sane" and socially active. If you are solo too much you will loose the benefits of reflections and relativizing nourishment of the world around you, its downhill from there. Getting out once you are in feels/seems more difficult but that's just because you are too self-centered/focussed/conscious; in reality everybody feels that way but are more confident that they can fake it and get away with it. Perhaps you could try gamifying the remedy(love your last name btw =) See it as upgrading yourself and training yourself to be more multi-classed. So you will become a programmer-thatlikestomakefriends-andsometimestakeswalksfornoreason-human class developer. Then spend every day spending some time practising/improving some part. After a while you might start to feel a flow of your desires and needs so it will become more natural and self-evident. Long story short, sorry for my long story but you touched me and I can relate. To Juan: Ouch, perhaps try to rekindle your love for designing and programming. Perhaps a few game jams with the team. Also, there's a GDC UA-cam about a guy why says the best plan is to have no plan. It struck a cord with me crazy as it might sound now. At Charley; NO BACKUPS! You must have felt like a cheat in this talk being the only one why actually screwed up but still came away with a profit, product and smiling. Not hating you here, just saying; you lucky lucky lucky….. Highest regards to you all. Mac
Great job of getting up there and talking about depression that takes a lot of guts. My family also has severe depression and it's hard to go through life with depression but it can be done really don't have any other choice but it definitely makes it harder I work full time I have two kids and also completed an indie game for the PS4 and it took everything I had it was a lot of work it was amazing but I'm glad I did it followed through and just like you did so congratulations on your projects and sounds like you've learned so much and moving forward so that's awesome Good for you man Proud of you. That battle that you go through in your mind is a battle that you have to fight. My friend who runs marathons said when he first started it was more of a mind game than actual physical because you had to have the the will to continue when you're bought mind was telling you to quit just quit stop this is too much but you had to have that mind to push through and I think the same with the video game development you may start having that self-doubt this game is not good enough I can't do this but that's all a part of it you have to fight through it and work through it and you will become stronger that's what my take on it is just got to fight through those feelings. I remember having those feelings a lot during development and I had to talk to myself and tell myself hey these feelings are normal but you got to keep going you got to press through don't listen to these feelings or these thoughts stay focused on what you want like a famous race car driver once said when they said what was the one thing that led to your success and he told them he said don't look at the wall and they said what do you mean he said when you first go to training they tell you you go where you focus on
Peace be unto you Jon. IDK crap about making games or the industry, but I know where you're coming from. I appreciate your emotional honesty. And strength to get up there and explain. Props!
man these talks were especially heartwrenching and difficult to listen to but I'm definitely super appreciative of everyone having the courage to share these stories so that we can all learn from them I really hope that they receive more positive feedback and support cause they deserve it👍🤗♥️
Excellent talks from all. It's useful to be reminded that things can go wrong, whether that be in life or a projects path. Each perspective came from a different point in the process of a failure and I think that variety is especially useful.
Another successful `Failures Workshop'! ;] Always some of my favourite talks but this year the Canadian Jon [Actual Human] R's was exceptionally inspirational and really sticks with you or did with me atleast..
I had a fairly similar experience to the first speaker. Thankfully I cured myself when I finally realized that what I was feeling didn't matter nor did the things I was or wasn't doing. By coming to really appreciate and understand my own lack of value I was able to finally lift the weight I had previously felt in every single action and thought. That may sound negative but I've learned not to rack myself judging such things. Edit: Regarding the third speaker, that's insanely awful to hear that happened. I literally lack the imagination to imagine a more worse-case scenario. I would rather be in Juan's shoes about to change industry than be in that situation!
"THE GAME WAS ABSOLUTE SHIT..." Now thats a man that deals with NOTHING but absolute truth... he is LUCKY that he didnt delude himself.. MANY DO!! Just because the alterative is unthinkable.. its actually an incredibly valuable skill to have. I feel really sorry for him.. seems like a lovely chap!
On first speaker: literally stop actively hating yourself. Those "typically white dudes" comments are you beating yourself up over things you can't control. I get the whole wanting the world to be better than the shithole that it is, and I'm not saying that everything is perfect or fair, but more let that be a fight for people who can handle it. You are helping no one by taking on more stress and anxiety when the rest of your life has you already twisted up. Focus just on yourself. Make the changes such that you aren't contributing to the shittiness of the world, and accept that that is enough, that that is your fight. If that's not good enough for others, screw them. You have a right to your life. Generally on the creatives and mental health thing, this is a great talk: ua-cam.com/video/86x-u-tz0MA/v-deo.html
I never got what the "white dudes" portion of his talk was about. That he was failing to live up to Isaac Newton (English), Nikola Tesla (Serbian), Davinci (Italian) or Einstein (Ashkenazim), all of whom were geniuses hailing from entirely different ethnicities with entirely different cultures yet he insultingly calls them all "white" as if they're all the same? Then he implicitly compares his product to some of the most successful and acclaimed indie games of all time by showing images of Braid and World of Goo and Undertale. If you set yourself impossible standards you're guaranteeing failure, especially considering not all of the factors are under your control. Hard work and insight and craft and experience all contribute heavily to making a great game, but there's a hefty dose of luck when it comes to determining financial/social success. Maybe he should try structuring his goals like a ladder or a stairway instead of a rocket into the sun if he doesn't want to burn up. Forge one link in the chain at a time, don't try to cast it all as one piece.
I'm pretty sure he was just taking a jab at the fact a majority of famous, solo artist are white guys. I heard other people make similar comments about how theres a 'type' that the majority focus on
How is a 100% recoup deal is bad? An investor gives you money for a promise that you build a product that would make that money back. And if you do not make any money from sales that means that the investor didn't get their investment back. You got more money than you managed to produce. Looks like a great deal. And a bad deal for investors.
I believe the deal is that it prioritizes paying the publishers back entirely first before the developers get a dime. That is the real issue. Until the publishes get theirs the developers are left without any resources to keep the lights on. I would say the key reason it is "bad" is that they didn't get more return than they invested. Thinking in terms of production of capital doesn't capture the entire picture. They invested their own money, energy, and (clearly)health into the product as well. Everybody lost in that scenario. Everybody involved knew these things are risky but one side covered their losses at the expense of the other. It makes sense for the publishers but from the perspective of the developers, it was a bad deal.
@@thanatos454 Imagine I give you a million dollars to make an app. You spend this million mostly on paying yourself a salary. You release the app and it makes 0.5 million dollars which I take to myself. And then you say that that was a bad deal because you do not get anything from that 0.5 millions. Well in that case go get a loan in a bank next time. And try paying it back it's 1 million + interests with that 0.5 million that you get sales totally to yourself.
@@Fenisto I get the numbers. I know the developers were paid. But I would say the fact that a bank loan is preferable speaks more to my point. They are publishers, not banks. They are investments, not loans. Let's see a lender *immediately* start taking entire paychecks until they get their loan paid back. How many people would say that is a "good" deal? As I see it, a publisher's position is closer to a stock trader than a bank. They are going further out on a limb for a larger RoI. That larger return on investment is what makes it worth taking the greater risk. Let's see a stock trader try and work a deal where the stocks he buys are refunded 100% before a bankrupt company can even pay their last paycheck. Like I said before, it makes sense for the publisher to get what they can. The fact the publishers are trying to have their cake(security in the deal) and eat it too(the greater return) is what is unreasonable for the developers. If we are going with that bank analogy then we might as well also say the people who lost their homes in the 2008 US Housing Bubble had a good deal because at least they had a home to live in while the bubble lasted. Obviously, Juan and his team had bigger hopes than paying himself a salary for the duration of producing a game. Just like the publisher had higher hopes than to coup their losses. They both sat down, weighed the risk, and came to an agreement. At the end of the day it was the developer's work and the publisher's money for a shared chance at a greater return. That chance fell through and the publishers are left with more or less the entirety of the long-tail to ease that failure while the developers got nothing. It didn't work well for them. That is why it is one of Juan's takeaways as a bad agreement and why we are watching him at a GDC talk about failures rather than someone from 505Games talking about mitigating risks at "GPC."
@@thanatos454 In this case investor alleviates ALL risks from the developer and takes it all upon itself. In case of a loan you risk your property that would cover that loan. But Juan received essentially free money for something that didn't exist with no risk of losing anything. Then blew it all up because he had no experience of creating commercially successful games making investors lose money. And now Juan says that it was a bad deal because he didn't receive any extra money in addition to money that he received before for creating a commercially failed product. >>>2008 US Housing Bubble had a good deal because at least they had a home to live in Of course they had a good deal. That is the sole point of mortgage. Instead on renting a place you pay that rent equivalent to a loan for your own place that you can live in. With a risk of losing it, which is still better than a rent. Or saving money for years.
Alex Le Saying the 08 mortgages were great deals for people clearly demonstrates your naïveté in financing and ethical business practices in general. I really recommend that you read a bit more on the topic and consider subscriptions to the WSJ or BI. Or try talking to small business owners in your area. Like I see where you’re coming from but your logic is fundamentally flawed. Just my 2 cents.
I appreciated Jon's segment. He came off as very natural and well-spoken. They all had great take-aways.
I love watching these every year. The best lessons come from failure
This was one of the saddest but also most inspirational GDC talks i have seen.
I generally love the idea of breaking the taboo of speaking about failure, but this one was special.
Thank you for sharing your hard times for others to learn from, that's incredibly brave of you all. Mental health issues do not get nearly enough attention in the video game industry. There is a huge amount of constant uncertainty in the industry, which can easily develop into chronic anxiety and depression, if left unchecked. Small studios especially are in danger of this, since they have less support structures in place. Attitudes also need adjustment. The reclusive genius is still celebrated as something to aspire to, despite how psychologically damaging that way of living has been found; Giving your all all the time and sacrificing everything just to be able to make games is still normalized, no matter how many people burn themselves out because of it. Although there is no simple solution, no silver bullet, the first step of solving these problems is always to start talking about them more openly and honestly, and creating an environment where it is safe to talk without fear of judgment or negative consequences.
I really feel bad for that second dude who said he does not feel like playing games anymore :(
Wonder if he's spending too much money on his projects. Most indie games I believe are built with little to no budget.
@@gayan1742 they tried to go straight outa college into running a small studio, he says at the start "we had the knowledge, 3d graphics, programing" he dosnt mention once that anyone on the team had any kind of experience or idea of how to run a small business.....
@@gayan1742 indie is way to vague of a term.
Some indies are built on low/no budget, but games like Hades or Ancestors : The Humankind Odyssey are still considered "indie" even though they have absolutely monstrous budgets and team sizes.
I can extremely relate to Jon's talk. He might as well have been talking about me. That negative feedback loop, self-isolating, the aspiration of being a solo auteur... I can relate to all of it.
The biggest difference maker in my own life has been building asking for help into the everyday. This is not something I've found easy, not so much because the asking is hard (though it is) but because I almost seem to entirely lack the instinct of when to ask. The right moment to ask for help simply never occurs to me naturally. It's only with the help of a close friend kinda training me that I've developed that ability.
These days one of my best coping mechanisms is oversharing how I'm feeling just to make sure that if I do need help, but don't yet recognise it, maybe my oversharing will help someone else see that I'm struggling and maybe they'll want to lend me a hand.
I'm not really going anywhere with this, just wanted to share.
Thank you for sharing :)
I love GDC talks, watch em all the time, but as a small independent business owner this talk was extra meaningful and I really appreciate the speakers for sharing. Thanks!
Great video, and some courage talks. Especially the first two speakers, Jon and Juan, it takes guts to stand up there and tell a not-so glamorous story.
Thank you, Jon Remedios. This might not have been the talk I wanted, but maybe the one I needed to hear.
To all speakers, thank you for sharing.
To Jon, I know the feeling and self-inflicted pain from frustration. I wish you well. I have the same although I am much older, my "wisdom", did not make a difference in preventing it from happening.
What you said about creating a toxic/deconstructive environment hits the key solution imho.
My problems started out later when working solo, before that I was "sane" and socially active.
If you are solo too much you will loose the benefits of reflections and relativizing nourishment of the world around you, its downhill from there. Getting out once you are in feels/seems more difficult but that's just because you are too self-centered/focussed/conscious; in reality everybody feels that way but are more confident that they can fake it and get away with it.
Perhaps you could try gamifying the remedy(love your last name btw =) See it as upgrading yourself and training yourself to be more multi-classed. So you will become a programmer-thatlikestomakefriends-andsometimestakeswalksfornoreason-human class developer.
Then spend every day spending some time practising/improving some part. After a while you might start to feel a flow of your desires and needs so it will become more natural and self-evident.
Long story short, sorry for my long story but you touched me and I can relate.
To Juan: Ouch, perhaps try to rekindle your love for designing and programming. Perhaps a few game jams with the team. Also, there's a GDC UA-cam about a guy why says the best plan is to have no plan. It struck a cord with me crazy as it might sound now.
At Charley; NO BACKUPS! You must have felt like a cheat in this talk being the only one why actually screwed up but still came away with a profit, product and smiling. Not hating you here, just saying; you lucky lucky lucky…..
Highest regards to you all.
Mac
Great job of getting up there and talking about depression that takes a lot of guts. My family also has severe depression and it's hard to go through life with depression but it can be done really don't have any other choice but it definitely makes it harder I work full time I have two kids and also completed an indie game for the PS4 and it took everything I had it was a lot of work it was amazing but I'm glad I did it followed through and just like you did so congratulations on your projects and sounds like you've learned so much and moving forward so that's awesome Good for you man Proud of you.
That battle that you go through in your mind is a battle that you have to fight. My friend who runs marathons said when he first started it was more of a mind game than actual physical because you had to have the the will to continue when you're bought mind was telling you to quit just quit stop this is too much but you had to have that mind to push through and I think the same with the video game development you may start having that self-doubt this game is not good enough I can't do this but that's all a part of it you have to fight through it and work through it and you will become stronger that's what my take on it is just got to fight through those feelings. I remember having those feelings a lot during development and I had to talk to myself and tell myself hey these feelings are normal but you got to keep going you got to press through don't listen to these feelings or these thoughts stay focused on what you want like a famous race car driver once said when they said what was the one thing that led to your success and he told them he said don't look at the wall and they said what do you mean he said when you first go to training they tell you you go where you focus on
Jon's segment speaks to me, I feel you dude.
Peace be unto you Jon. IDK crap about making games or the industry, but I know where you're coming from.
I appreciate your emotional honesty. And strength to get up there and explain. Props!
man these talks were especially heartwrenching and difficult to listen to but I'm definitely super appreciative of everyone having the courage to share these stories so that we can all learn from them
I really hope that they receive more positive feedback and support cause they deserve it👍🤗♥️
It's like AA meeting for game devs
Wow. These are really powerful talks, and these guys are showing a lot of courage. I was not expecting this.
Excellent talks from all. It's useful to be reminded that things can go wrong, whether that be in life or a projects path. Each perspective came from a different point in the process of a failure and I think that variety is especially useful.
Thank you guys!
Another successful `Failures Workshop'! ;] Always some of my favourite talks but this year the Canadian Jon [Actual Human] R's was exceptionally inspirational and really sticks with you or did with me atleast..
I really like Jon Remedios' honesty
You don't have backups until you test your backups
Thank You for making this video
I had a fairly similar experience to the first speaker. Thankfully I cured myself when I finally realized that what I was feeling didn't matter nor did the things I was or wasn't doing. By coming to really appreciate and understand my own lack of value I was able to finally lift the weight I had previously felt in every single action and thought. That may sound negative but I've learned not to rack myself judging such things.
Edit: Regarding the third speaker, that's insanely awful to hear that happened. I literally lack the imagination to imagine a more worse-case scenario. I would rather be in Juan's shoes about to change industry than be in that situation!
Thanks, great presentation
"THE GAME WAS ABSOLUTE SHIT..." Now thats a man that deals with NOTHING but absolute truth... he is LUCKY that he didnt delude himself.. MANY DO!! Just because the alterative is unthinkable.. its actually an incredibly valuable skill to have. I feel really sorry for him.. seems like a lovely chap!
Dropping a comment about reserach centaur blowing my mind
that data partner who deleted evrerything? pipe piper
Amazing talk
Ánimo Juan!
💯
On first speaker: literally stop actively hating yourself. Those "typically white dudes" comments are you beating yourself up over things you can't control. I get the whole wanting the world to be better than the shithole that it is, and I'm not saying that everything is perfect or fair, but more let that be a fight for people who can handle it. You are helping no one by taking on more stress and anxiety when the rest of your life has you already twisted up. Focus just on yourself. Make the changes such that you aren't contributing to the shittiness of the world, and accept that that is enough, that that is your fight. If that's not good enough for others, screw them. You have a right to your life.
Generally on the creatives and mental health thing, this is a great talk:
ua-cam.com/video/86x-u-tz0MA/v-deo.html
I never got what the "white dudes" portion of his talk was about. That he was failing to live up to Isaac Newton (English), Nikola Tesla (Serbian), Davinci (Italian) or Einstein (Ashkenazim), all of whom were geniuses hailing from entirely different ethnicities with entirely different cultures yet he insultingly calls them all "white" as if they're all the same?
Then he implicitly compares his product to some of the most successful and acclaimed indie games of all time by showing images of Braid and World of Goo and Undertale. If you set yourself impossible standards you're guaranteeing failure, especially considering not all of the factors are under your control. Hard work and insight and craft and experience all contribute heavily to making a great game, but there's a hefty dose of luck when it comes to determining financial/social success. Maybe he should try structuring his goals like a ladder or a stairway instead of a rocket into the sun if he doesn't want to burn up. Forge one link in the chain at a time, don't try to cast it all as one piece.
I'm pretty sure he was just taking a jab at the fact a majority of famous, solo artist are white guys. I heard other people make similar comments about how theres a 'type' that the majority focus on
DAMN THIS WAS SAD AF
I'd agree if instead of 'SAD' we put 'touching' or 'inspiring' even.. ;]
On second thought you're prolly right at least regarding the middle talk ..
See now mr first guy. i came for falure workshop not feeeeeellls workshop >..
How is a 100% recoup deal is bad? An investor gives you money for a promise that you build a product that would make that money back. And if you do not make any money from sales that means that the investor didn't get their investment back. You got more money than you managed to produce.
Looks like a great deal. And a bad deal for investors.
I believe the deal is that it prioritizes paying the publishers back entirely first before the developers get a dime. That is the real issue. Until the publishes get theirs the developers are left without any resources to keep the lights on.
I would say the key reason it is "bad" is that they didn't get more return than they invested. Thinking in terms of production of capital doesn't capture the entire picture. They invested their own money, energy, and (clearly)health into the product as well. Everybody lost in that scenario.
Everybody involved knew these things are risky but one side covered their losses at the expense of the other. It makes sense for the publishers but from the perspective of the developers, it was a bad deal.
@@thanatos454 Imagine I give you a million dollars to make an app. You spend this million mostly on paying yourself a salary. You release the app and it makes 0.5 million dollars which I take to myself. And then you say that that was a bad deal because you do not get anything from that 0.5 millions. Well in that case go get a loan in a bank next time. And try paying it back it's 1 million + interests with that 0.5 million that you get sales totally to yourself.
@@Fenisto
I get the numbers. I know the developers were paid. But I would say the fact that a bank loan is preferable speaks more to my point. They are publishers, not banks. They are investments, not loans. Let's see a lender *immediately* start taking entire paychecks until they get their loan paid back. How many people would say that is a "good" deal?
As I see it, a publisher's position is closer to a stock trader than a bank. They are going further out on a limb for a larger RoI. That larger return on investment is what makes it worth taking the greater risk. Let's see a stock trader try and work a deal where the stocks he buys are refunded 100% before a bankrupt company can even pay their last paycheck. Like I said before, it makes sense for the publisher to get what they can. The fact the publishers are trying to have their cake(security in the deal) and eat it too(the greater return) is what is unreasonable for the developers.
If we are going with that bank analogy then we might as well also say the people who lost their homes in the 2008 US Housing Bubble had a good deal because at least they had a home to live in while the bubble lasted.
Obviously, Juan and his team had bigger hopes than paying himself a salary for the duration of producing a game. Just like the publisher had higher hopes than to coup their losses. They both sat down, weighed the risk, and came to an agreement. At the end of the day it was the developer's work and the publisher's money for a shared chance at a greater return. That chance fell through and the publishers are left with more or less the entirety of the long-tail to ease that failure while the developers got nothing. It didn't work well for them. That is why it is one of Juan's takeaways as a bad agreement and why we are watching him at a GDC talk about failures rather than someone from 505Games talking about mitigating risks at "GPC."
@@thanatos454 In this case investor alleviates ALL risks from the developer and takes it all upon itself. In case of a loan you risk your property that would cover that loan.
But Juan received essentially free money for something that didn't exist with no risk of losing anything. Then blew it all up because he had no experience of creating commercially successful games making investors lose money. And now Juan says that it was a bad deal because he didn't receive any extra money in addition to money that he received before for creating a commercially failed product.
>>>2008 US Housing Bubble had a good deal because at least they had a home to live in
Of course they had a good deal. That is the sole point of mortgage. Instead on renting a place you pay that rent equivalent to a loan for your own place that you can live in. With a risk of losing it, which is still better than a rent. Or saving money for years.
Alex Le Saying the 08 mortgages were great deals for people clearly demonstrates your naïveté in financing and ethical business practices in general. I really recommend that you read a bit more on the topic and consider subscriptions to the WSJ or BI. Or try talking to small business owners in your area. Like I see where you’re coming from but your logic is fundamentally flawed. Just my 2 cents.
I was put off by his comments about skin color and gender. Please don't project your prejudice onto the rest of us
How is a recoup deal abusive? Or do you just want to spend other peoples money for your "dream?"
that first dude has MEGA soy face, stop it.